17/07/2016 Sunday Politics Wales


17/07/2016

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LineFromTo

Morning folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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After Friday's failed coup, the crackdown in Turkey begins

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with thousands of arrests and threats of retribution,

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including the death penalty for rebels.

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What does the turmoil mean for Turkey's future,

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Nato and the fight against Islamic State?

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I wish you all the best and I am supporting you all the way. Do I get

:01:03.:01:07.

a hug? Jeremy Corbyn's confident

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that his fans will ensure he's re-elected - but he tells us

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that the rules of Labour's leadership election are unfair

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and the party's national executive She was a "Remainer"

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but Theresa May's promised Later in the programme, the cold

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and take us out of the EU - Later in the programme, the cold

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shoulder. Carwyn Jones is worried well to being ignored by Brussels

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after Brexit. Since we broadcast last week,

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a new Prime Minister, a new government, carnage in Nice

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and an attempted coup in Turkey. The unexpected is now

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commonplace, major news events But one thing that doesn't change

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here on Sunday mornings is that we always bring you the best

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and the brightest political panel in the business -

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Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott So Friday night's attempted army

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coup in Turkey failed and President Erdogan has moved

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ruthlessly to re-establish He says the coup was "a gift from

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God" because it gives him a reason A major clampdown on dissent is now

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widely anticipated, Let's get the latest

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from our Correspondent Is it underway? Is it expected to be

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pretty ruthless? Yes. It is underway. The crackdown has already

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taken place. Around 3000 soldiers have been detained including

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high-ranking generals and around 3000 judges have been dismissed from

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their posts. Many judges have also been detained. President Recep

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Tayyip Erdogan had already said that those behind the coup attempt would

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be paying a heavy price and that is what we are seeing at the moment.

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Many people think that the crackdown will further deepen. The government

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thinks that the movement of Fethullah Gulen is behind this

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attempt. That is something that Fethullah Gulen denies. He is a

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cleric based in Pennsylvania, Annex aisle who used to be on good terms

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with the government, and Mr Hird one himself. -- Mr Erdogan. Fethullah

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Gulen has said he has been involved includes himself, but he played no

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part in this one. Although the square would normally be packed with

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hundreds of tourists, the beauty of Istanbul being celebrated, but last

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night it was a different story, packed with hundreds of supporters

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of the government, chanting slogans like, God is great, in protest of

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the coup attempt. They adhered to the call coming from President

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Erdogan to take it out to the streets. They were jubilant because

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they felt empowered, in the part they played in suppressing the coup

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attempt. If there was a source of resistance to President is Erdogan,

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it was not the army, and I would suggest that he is going to take

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over the army, and he will have complete control. He was already

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pretty authoritarian before this happened. Is Turkey now in danger of

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a dictatorship? That is a question that many people asked. In Turkey

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and in the world. People who do not necessarily aligned themselves with

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the government policies were already cautious about Mr Erdogan's

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tendencies about getting more executive powers. It is no secret

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that President Erdogan once to change the parliamentary system in

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Turkey to a presidential system which would give him powers that no

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other president has seen before in Turkey. And now that he has managed

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to suppress this coup attempt, many people in Turkey fear that this

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could actually play into the hands of Mr Hird one, and turn the country

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into an alt. Chrissie, as you have said. -- way into the hands of Mr

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Erdogan. But on the other hand, Mr Erdogan's supporters are jubilant

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and they think that this was a victory of democracy. Yesterday the

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Turkish parliament convened an extraordinary session and all the

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opposition parties supported the government. The portrayed a stand

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against the coup attempt. The Prime Minister thanked them and said that

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this could be a threshold moment for Turkish politics but considering

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that Turkey is a polarised country and politics is divided, whether the

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government can bring everybody together after these 48 hours of

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trauma, it is a difficult task. They give very much. -- thank you very

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much. We're joined by the Foreign Affairs

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analyst, Tim Marshall. Let's look back at what happened

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here. The Turkish army, traditionally does not like Islamist

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leaning governments and has mounted three successful coups, turning

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Turkey to a more secular at two secular government. What was this, a

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gang that could not shoot straight or the keystone cops to make a bit

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of both. It was white, they did most of the right things but they did not

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have the depth above them. Above them, they had no support. They made

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two massive errors. They did not kill President Erdogan. That is the

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first thing you should do. I am not advocating it! It is a 101 guide to

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coups! But that is paragraph one, kill or at least capture the

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president. And shut down the media. They went to the state television,

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and in the 20th century, all the media was in one building and you

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would close it down. But they forgot that in the 21st-century, there was

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CNN Turkey still on a, and they did not close down social media, so Mr

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Erdogan, who hates social media and Twitter, pepper and --

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hypocritically gets onto Facebook and says to Turkey, get into the

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streets and because the coup is white and not deep, very soon the

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call to prayer goes out, and they know it is not the proper time, and

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it means going to the street. Within half an hour, the people outnumber

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the troops and the pendulum swings the other way. If Turkey faces a

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serious clamp-down, a move from authoritarianism to something

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bordering on dictator -- a dictatorship, this surely has huge

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obligations for Turkey's relations with America and the EU? And for the

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fight with Islamic State. This goes from being a domestic event to one

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with regional and geopolitical implications. And a Nato member.

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It's funny, we talk about him all the time, but as your correspondent

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said, this is a parliamentary republic, where traditionally the

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president is simply a figurehead but because he is so dominant and has

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total control of the HK party, all he had to do was switch from one job

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to the next. And all the power went with him because of the atmosphere

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at not because of the law. But he tried last year to move the powers

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legally into his office. He is closing down the media, he is now

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getting rid of the remnants in the Army that art not with him, and he

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has the support of the mosques and parliament. It is becoming a

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democratic dictatorship, a phrase I came up with for the loss of itch in

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Serbia, you bring two new radio stations out that broadcast so

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loudly that free speech is still allowed, but it cannot be heard.

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Remember the Civil War was the Kurds? That will just be utterly

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ruthless. This is a hugely historic event in Turkey's history because

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previous army coups have won and he will now take out the army as an

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independent force and it will become much more authoritarian, perhaps

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even autocratic. Where does this leave Western relations with Turkey?

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I think we can agree that it is not going to join the European Union any

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time soon so we can scotch that one. I think the ultimate dilemma must be

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for Nato. It is a security organisation but it is also an

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organisation defined by certain values and practices and if

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President Erdogan responds to the coup attempt by tightening freedoms

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further, by intervening against the judiciary and the Armed Forces

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further, then there must be a dilemma at some stage for Nato. I

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thought it might have been telling that three or four hours, I don't

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know if Tim agrees, for the US at least, if not Nato, to say anything

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about the coup, when they did they did not mention President Erdogan by

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name. I don't know if that suggests they know what side there bread is

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buttered on and they were waiting to see if the coup would succeed. But

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it is a huge event for the West and Turkey. The state was founded on

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secular ideals. The Armed Forces have always been seen as an

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invigilator of government. I am right in saying that the Turkish

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president has never been commander-in-chief, officially, in

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the way that a US president would be. Or a French president. Many

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people think that what he wants to do is create an executive style

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French presidency. You would still have a parliament and a Prime

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Minister but it would be the president that matters, rather than

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just being head of state. Turkey has been so pivotal, first of all in

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dealing with the migrant crisis in the eastern Mediterranean, with the

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situation in Syria, and Islamic State, and in the region as a

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regional superpower that balances Iran and even Saudi Arabia. We don't

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know where this is going to lead now. And has been talk for a long

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time about how it is massively in the interest of the West to have a

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stable Turkey. It has not been stable for some time and it will not

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be, even if this coup was a somewhat silly, ill thought through coup, it

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is clearly destabilising and will have consequences for a long time to

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come. I would be interesting to -- I would be interested to hear from Tim

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whether the EU has some leveraged because Turkey's desire to join it.

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That dynamic, although clearly not the agenda in spite of the farcical

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things said during the referendum campaign, that gives the EU some

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leveraged in reshaping what happens in Turkey. You wonder if that is

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even on his mind. It will not be. But the president has so many

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domestic fish to fry, and that might not be a very good metaphor given

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what he is about to do. If he is about to reintroduce the death

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penalty, it becomes very difficult to talk about Turkey being part of

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the EU. What do our diplomats do? It is in our interest to encourage the

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dreamer but it does not look compatible with the way that things

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are being carried out. Remarkably, these events in Gneiss had been

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overshadowed by Turkey and yet it only happened on Thursday night and

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this is Sunday morning. I suggest that the reaction in France to Nice

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is going to be very different. Charlie Hebdo, the Bataclan, there

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was great solidarity and it brought France together. I think this is

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different because people have had enough and it is different because

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there are clear security questions. No barrier on the promenade. We are

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told that there was a barrier when the military parades took place but

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it was removed after words, and already the politicians are ganging

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up on the government and this is becoming a major pre-election issue.

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That's right. The election is next year and Marine Le Pen is

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positioning herself very strongly with the National Front. There is a

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public divided on how to approach it and even if this is not Islamic

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State, and I am not convinced that it is, it happens in the context of

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Islamic State and of mass slaughter in the name of something. It is

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another chip away at our freedoms. And that is, in itself, a success.

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They are going to continue. I believe the rise of the right is far

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from Peking. And it plays absolutely into next year's presidential

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election. Going back from the presidential election, that all

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comes into what the EU is going to look like. We are in a state of

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flux. You are old enough, forgive me, Andrew, to know that everybody

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always says it has never been as bad as now and it is always untrue. But

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it is actually more corrugated than I have ever known it. And you may

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agree. I do agree. The Conservatives completed

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their leadership contest in a matter of days,

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Labour's has barely begun. There are now two candidates

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standing against Jeremy Corbyn - Angela Eagle and Owen Smith -

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but the Labour Leader has told us that the rules which exclude

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recently signed up members from voting in the contest

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are unfair and he wants the party's national executive

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to change them. Adam Fleming went for a walk

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in the park with Mr Corbyn. This is the lake that was built

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here in the 19th century, rather strange lake on the top

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of the hill. I went for a stroll

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round the Labour leader's favourite local beauty spot -

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Finsbury Park in north London. Do you have time to take a casual

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stroll with a journalist Yes, because doing things

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in a relaxed way is important, and doing other things is important,

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so going to a park, being in your However busy I am, my

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allotment is tended. It's in good order, we had a good

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crop of broad beans and we ate A slightly less relaxing

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part of his week. At a meeting of Labour's national

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executive on Tuesday, Jeremy Corbyn secured an automatic

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place in the leadership election. But he's not happy with new rules

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that say people who joined the party There's going to be some quite

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intense discussions over the next few days, I suspect,

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and I hope our party officials and National Executive will see

:16:47.:16:49.

sense on this and recognise that those people who have freely

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given their time and money to join the Labour Party should be welcomed

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in and given the opportunity to take part in this crucial debate,

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whichever way they decide to vote. I'm hoping there will be

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an understanding that it is simply not very fair to say to people that

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joined the party in the last six months, "sorry, your participation

:17:11.:17:13.

is no longer welcome because we are having

:17:14.:17:17.

a leadership contest." In the next few days,

:17:18.:17:22.

various Labour factions will be racing to sign people up

:17:23.:17:24.

as registered supporters, It costs ?25, not ?3

:17:25.:17:26.

like in the last contest. For people who can't afford the 25

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quid, what would you suggest If they can't afford the ?25,

:17:36.:17:38.

what they do? It seems to me the ?25 bar is quite

:17:39.:17:44.

high and not really reasonable. A lot of people have said to me,

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people stop me in the street saying, "I would love to vote in this

:17:49.:17:52.

election but I can't afford ?25." He is also disappointed that

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virtually all local party meetings have been suspended over

:17:58.:18:00.

fears of intimidation. I haven't stopped party meetings

:18:01.:18:05.

taking place and I actually I think party meetings

:18:06.:18:07.

should take place. Intimidation of any sort by anybody

:18:08.:18:12.

is absolutely wrong, but to cancel meetings

:18:13.:18:18.

because of the perception that intimidation might take place

:18:19.:18:21.

I think is a big mistake. The issues appear to be that

:18:22.:18:24.

where meetings have taken place, far more people have attended

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than were expected and so there has been issues about how people

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can get in the room, whereas there's a fairly

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simple answer to that - Talking of meetings,

:18:34.:18:35.

who was he with when Theresa May was taking over as Prime Minister

:18:36.:18:42.

earlier this week? I was with an all-party group,

:18:43.:18:47.

including Conservatives, talking to two of the Miami five

:18:48.:18:49.

who had been in prison in Miami and were released

:18:50.:18:52.

by the court decisions of USA and the new rapprochement with Cuba

:18:53.:18:55.

and actually welcoming the fact there had been an agreement

:18:56.:18:57.

reached in Cuba. I was actually with Conservatives

:18:58.:19:04.

and Labour people. I was there for about 20 minutes,

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then I went back to my office And so you felt that was a good use

:19:10.:19:12.

of your time at that point when the country was transitioning

:19:13.:19:17.

from one Prime Minister to another? Informing yourself by listening

:19:18.:19:20.

to people from all kinds of walks This morning I was on the phone

:19:21.:19:24.

to friends in Istanbul and Ankara And so when an issue happens

:19:25.:19:30.

anywhere in the world, obviously I read all the briefings

:19:31.:19:38.

that I've been given, obviously I follow the news

:19:39.:19:40.

and information, but also I quite often know people in different

:19:41.:19:43.

places around the world so I call Can I get a hug

:19:44.:19:46.

for that? He also seems to know a lot

:19:47.:19:51.

of people in this park. What do you think about

:19:52.:20:00.

Angela Eagle and Owen Smith I have been trying to unregister

:20:01.:20:02.

from the Green Party so that I can register with the Labour Party

:20:03.:20:16.

so that I can support you. We were walking round

:20:17.:20:19.

with Jeremy Corbyn, What did you shout

:20:20.:20:23.

out when you saw him? I don't know what I said,

:20:24.:20:27.

something awful like... Something like "you've

:20:28.:20:30.

ruined the Labour Party". Something like, "step aside and stop

:20:31.:20:35.

ruining the Labour Party," I guess. And I couldn't let Jeremy go

:20:36.:20:38.

without introducing him to the craze sweeping the nation,

:20:39.:20:43.

Pokemon Go. He didn't seem that bothered

:20:44.:20:46.

but then he's playing a much bigger game, trying to hold onto his job,

:20:47.:20:49.

and that's no walk in the park. Our work this morning has not

:20:50.:20:52.

been in vain. And a longer version of that

:20:53.:20:58.

interview with Jeremy Corbyn We're joined now from Salford

:20:59.:21:00.

though by the Shadow Education Secretary,

:21:01.:21:04.

Angela Rayner. Welcome to the programme. Jeremy

:21:05.:21:16.

Corbyn wants to allow people who joined in the last six months of

:21:17.:21:22.

your party to vote, he thinks the ?25 fee is too high. Isn't it just

:21:23.:21:26.

typical of the chaos Labour is now in that you are holding a leadership

:21:27.:21:31.

contest before you have agreed rules? Good morning, I think it's

:21:32.:21:36.

important we recognise the Labour Party is transformed with now over

:21:37.:21:40.

half a million members joined, which is fantastic. We are the largest

:21:41.:21:45.

democratic social party across Europe. For me it is about

:21:46.:21:51.

democracy. I asked about the rules, should you be having a contest

:21:52.:21:55.

before you have agreed rules? The rules were decided at the NEC

:21:56.:22:00.

meeting which lasted seven hours, quite a lengthy marathon... You want

:22:01.:22:06.

to change them? People need to reflect upon the current situation

:22:07.:22:12.

and there has been outrage. 130,000 people have joined since the

:22:13.:22:16.

referendum, and we have got to give them the opportunity to have their

:22:17.:22:22.

voice heard. Have these 130,000 that joined after the referendum been

:22:23.:22:28.

properly vetted? That is a situation that the NEC and our party has got

:22:29.:22:33.

to approve and go through. We did it last time, we had a huge number of

:22:34.:22:37.

people join our party recently. Have that number been vetted or not? You

:22:38.:22:47.

have got to allow democracy. What we do is we ensure we get more people,

:22:48.:22:52.

more staff, more ability to deal with that issue because democracy is

:22:53.:22:57.

important, it is enshrined. Hold on, you are starting the leadership

:22:58.:23:01.

campaign and you still haven't vetted those who may be allowed to

:23:02.:23:06.

vote, that's what I mean by chaos, if not fast. I don't think it's

:23:07.:23:10.

chaotic to have over half a million people join our party and want to

:23:11.:23:18.

have a say, it is a positive step. It is if you cannot vet them come

:23:19.:23:21.

you don't know if they are members of the Socialist workers party, the

:23:22.:23:23.

Greens, the Communists, the National front, the Conservatives. You have

:23:24.:23:31.

no idea. We have 130,000 people who have joined in the last three weeks,

:23:32.:23:37.

which the Conservative Party have around 150,000 members per se. We

:23:38.:23:40.

have over half a million members so we are doing a great job. The

:23:41.:23:46.

Trotskyists and other groups you are suggesting may be trying to join our

:23:47.:23:49.

party, they are not in the great numbers we see at the moment. It is

:23:50.:23:54.

important to give people a say about the future of our country and party.

:23:55.:24:00.

I love democracy. Will you definitely be voting for Mr Corbyn

:24:01.:24:03.

this time because you didn't last time. No, I supported Andy Burnham

:24:04.:24:10.

last time, but I recognise Jeremy Corbyn had a significant mandate to

:24:11.:24:14.

lead our party. I don't think it's time to have a leadership contest. I

:24:15.:24:19.

will not be nominating another candidate, I will be recognising our

:24:20.:24:23.

democratically elected leader. I asked who you will be voting for. I

:24:24.:24:33.

will be supporting -- our democratically elected leader. Can

:24:34.:24:42.

you say the words, I will vote for Jeremy Corbyn? I have made it clear

:24:43.:24:48.

what my position is, and that's about democracy and our members

:24:49.:24:56.

making... Are you or aren't you? I have told you I will be supporting

:24:57.:25:00.

our democratically elected leader of our party. I want to hold the

:25:01.:25:04.

Government to account, we have a bill coming up on Tuesday... I'm

:25:05.:25:12.

puzzled, are you voting for Mr Corbyn? Your viewers want to see us

:25:13.:25:17.

holding this Government to account. I have tried to answer your question

:25:18.:25:22.

but you don't want to listen to my answer. Could you name the person

:25:23.:25:27.

you will be voting for in this election? I will be listening to our

:25:28.:25:31.

membership and in the meantime holding the Government to account

:25:32.:25:35.

and supporting our democratically elected leader of our party, which

:25:36.:25:42.

is Jeremy Corbyn. A new poll shows Theresa May leads Jeremy Corbyn 58%

:25:43.:25:49.

to 19, on who would make the better Prime Minister. It shows 40% of

:25:50.:25:53.

Labour voters think Theresa May would make a better Prime Minister.

:25:54.:25:58.

Why are you backing, if you are, I'm still not clear, why are you backing

:25:59.:26:05.

a loser? Our party is seen as quite divided and divided parties never

:26:06.:26:10.

win elections. We don't disagree on policy points, we have to get our

:26:11.:26:13.

policy points across to the electorate and then they will

:26:14.:26:17.

decide. Theresa May has the challenge of bringing her

:26:18.:26:22.

Conservative Party together. There was no competition, no democracy

:26:23.:26:25.

within the Conservative Party in terms of who they wanted as leader.

:26:26.:26:29.

She has a job to do because the country has never been more divided

:26:30.:26:33.

than it is now and that's directly as a result of the Conservatives.

:26:34.:26:42.

You all seem to have a job to do. Speaking of Mrs May, is the Labour

:26:43.:26:48.

Party now the nasty party? No, Theresa May had it right, the

:26:49.:26:52.

Conservatives continue to be so. They are cutting education funding

:26:53.:26:57.

by up to 8% in this Parliament, they want to prioritise the NHS and have

:26:58.:27:02.

already been creeping that in. They are not on the side of ordinary

:27:03.:27:07.

people in this country. Theresa May has said she wants the Conservatives

:27:08.:27:11.

to be a party for everybody and working people across the country.

:27:12.:27:15.

Now her words have to be matched by actions. Let me ask you this about

:27:16.:27:22.

Labour. Meetings of constituency Labour parties have been suspended

:27:23.:27:28.

from fear of intimidation. There are death threats and violence, a brick

:27:29.:27:32.

thrown through the window of the office block where Angela Eagle's

:27:33.:27:38.

constituency is housed. Police have had to investigate. I ask again, is

:27:39.:27:44.

it not Labour that is the nasty party? I think any act of abuse and

:27:45.:27:49.

intimidation is disgusting in politics and many politicians from

:27:50.:27:51.

all sides of the house have had death threats and threats of

:27:52.:27:56.

violence, and that has got to be stamped out of a modern democracy.

:27:57.:27:59.

Why is it in the Labour Party this is happening? It happens across the

:28:00.:28:06.

spectrum in politics and it is disgusting. But it cannot stop

:28:07.:28:10.

democracy either, we have got to continue to uphold and enshrined our

:28:11.:28:14.

democracy in everything we do because it is important. It means a

:28:15.:28:18.

lot to a lot of people but you cannot win on democracy by abusing,

:28:19.:28:21.

threatening and intimidating the other side of the argument. You have

:28:22.:28:25.

got to have a constructive debate and people have got to have their

:28:26.:28:32.

democratic right to vote. Thanks for being with us this morning.

:28:33.:28:34.

Now, despite signing up to David Cameron's Remain strategy,

:28:35.:28:37.

our new Prime Minister has put navigating the UK's departure

:28:38.:28:39.

from the EU and retaining the union at the centre

:28:40.:28:41.

We're joined now by the Conservative MP and former attorney-general

:28:42.:28:45.

The appointment of three key Cabinet positions to Brexiteers - Boris

:28:46.:28:48.

Johnson, David Davis, and Liam Fox - reflects this.

:28:49.:28:50.

A few days before his appointment, the Brexit Secretary set

:28:51.:28:52.

out how he'd proceed with separation from the EU.

:28:53.:28:57.

He said triggering new trade talks were a

:28:58.:28:59.

priority and wanted the UK to negotiate free-trade deals with

:29:00.:29:01.

Mr Davis believes the UK should not budge on control of our borders, but

:29:02.:29:09.

the tariff-free access to the EU single market is still his preferred

:29:10.:29:12.

The Brexit Secretary acknowledged that talks with the

:29:13.:29:18.

Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Ireland governments

:29:19.:29:20.

And Theresa May made the first step on Thursday, telling

:29:21.:29:25.

Nicola Sturgeon in Edinburgh that she is willing to listen

:29:26.:29:27.

to options on Scotland's future relationship

:29:28.:29:29.

Mrs May said Britain would not rush into

:29:30.:29:35.

Brexit negotiations and would need some time to prepare.

:29:36.:29:37.

However, Mr Davis said Article 50 should be

:29:38.:29:39.

and mean Britain would be out of the EU by January

:29:40.:29:48.

We're joined now by the Conservative MP and former attorney-general

:29:49.:29:55.

Dominic Grieve, who campaigned for Remain, and the Labour MP

:29:56.:29:57.

who chaired the Vote Leave campaign, Gisela Stewart.

:29:58.:30:00.

We are joined by Dominic Grieve and the chairman of the boat Leave

:30:01.:30:10.

campaign, Gisela Stuart. -- Vote Leave. As Theresa May delivered? I

:30:11.:30:19.

think she has. I think it was important that you made clear that

:30:20.:30:22.

Brexit meant Brexit. We had to make a clear that there was no second

:30:23.:30:29.

referendum in the offering. That required certainty for the country.

:30:30.:30:33.

Are you satisfied with that? I am completely satisfied with her

:30:34.:30:38.

approach, yes. It is clear that the vote, as expressed in the

:30:39.:30:41.

referendum, has to be respected. We have to take forward a programme for

:30:42.:30:45.

removing the United Kingdom from the EU. Really that is going to be an

:30:46.:30:50.

immensely comported process and it also carries with it economic risks,

:30:51.:30:54.

certainly in the short to medium term. I am also open-minded as to

:30:55.:31:00.

how one best does that. I think we're going to have to respond to

:31:01.:31:04.

events as well as trying to shape them. We have seen a blueprint

:31:05.:31:08.

published by my friend and colleague, David Davis, about

:31:09.:31:16.

Britain's outside the EU. I expect that 99.9% of conservatives would

:31:17.:31:20.

subscribe to that but getting to it is more congregated. We need to

:31:21.:31:24.

unpick this bit by bit. When do we trigger article 50? You need to go

:31:25.:31:31.

in reverse, like a reverse accession process. The most important thing is

:31:32.:31:37.

trade negotiations. As I understand that you cannot have a bilateral

:31:38.:31:43.

agreement unless you have notified Article 50. But you must have some

:31:44.:31:50.

idea of the time? The sooner the better. When do you think we should

:31:51.:31:54.

trigger article 50. I think we should trigger at when there is some

:31:55.:31:59.

clarity as to what the scope of the negotiations that will follow will

:32:00.:32:03.

be. This is the first big hurdle. Clearly if our European partners do

:32:04.:32:08.

not want to negotiate with us at all, even informally, prior to

:32:09.:32:13.

triggering Article 50, that might presents difficulties but from the

:32:14.:32:15.

point of view of the Prime Minister, she will make up her own mind.

:32:16.:32:20.

Actually getting some clear idea of what it is that the United Kingdom

:32:21.:32:23.

is seeking in terms of a future relationship is going to very

:32:24.:32:29.

important. And I think it is impossible to give a particular time

:32:30.:32:34.

frame. But I agree with Gisela Stuart. But the time frame has to

:32:35.:32:38.

work and it has to be done in good time for the 2020 election, so you

:32:39.:32:43.

can work back from that. I think you can, but I think that she needs, the

:32:44.:32:47.

Prime Minister needs to be given maximum flexibility about this

:32:48.:32:50.

because boxing herself in to how she goes about what is going to be one

:32:51.:32:54.

of the most difficult political transformations this country has

:32:55.:32:57.

gone through in modern times, I think that requires pragmatism. Does

:32:58.:33:01.

it require a vote of Parliament to trigger Article 50? Not necessarily.

:33:02.:33:07.

Let's come back to something. This is not just about our relationship

:33:08.:33:10.

with the EU, it is our relationship with the rest of the world.

:33:11.:33:19.

Triggering Article 50 has also been interpreted into how we talk with

:33:20.:33:23.

other countries. But we can talk with them without concluding deals?

:33:24.:33:26.

But in terms of negotiations, there comes a point that to make it

:33:27.:33:31.

meaningful, you have to trigger it. But I want to ask you, do we need a

:33:32.:33:36.

vote in parliament to trigger Article 50? Undoubtedly. It is a

:33:37.:33:44.

matter of convention. The idea that a government could take a decision

:33:45.:33:46.

of such massive importance to the United Kingdom without Parliamentary

:33:47.:33:51.

approval, it seems to me to be extremely far-fetched. It is not

:33:52.:33:55.

about law. It is about convention and reality. Do you agree? I can see

:33:56.:34:00.

the arguments from both sides but I don't think you absolutely have to

:34:01.:34:05.

do it. We have not got a lot of time, would you vote for triggering

:34:06.:34:09.

Article 50? Yes. I have made it quite clear that the result of the

:34:10.:34:14.

referendum must mean that we have to be willing to embark on the process.

:34:15.:34:19.

I put in one rider to that which is that it seems to me that any

:34:20.:34:24.

sensible decision has to be made at the time you make it. But that is

:34:25.:34:28.

not a suggestion that I am going to suddenly decide not to support

:34:29.:34:32.

triggering Article 50, but triggering Article 50 is an

:34:33.:34:35.

important political step to withdraw from the EU. One has to keep that in

:34:36.:34:40.

mind. Do you worry that people like Dominic Grieve are teeing themselves

:34:41.:34:44.

up to call for a second referendum on the nature of the deal we will

:34:45.:34:49.

do? I do. I think if there is one thing the European Union is very

:34:50.:34:53.

good at, it is that when political necessity is in the interest of both

:34:54.:34:57.

sides, they are capable of rewriting the rules. So the European Union

:34:58.:35:02.

itself has to look at the problems it faces, and then at what the best

:35:03.:35:09.

deal is. There is a danger that those who do not like the outcome of

:35:10.:35:11.

the referendum get themselves hooked on Article 50, rather than saying

:35:12.:35:15.

that there is a new reality out there and we need to deal with that

:35:16.:35:20.

in the interests of the United Kingdom. If you could bring it

:35:21.:35:23.

about, you would have a second referendum, wouldn't you? Not

:35:24.:35:27.

necessarily. The justification for having a second referendum is if the

:35:28.:35:32.

circumstances that prevail at the time and justify it because there is

:35:33.:35:36.

some legitimate question to put to the electorate. I am very wary of

:35:37.:35:40.

circumscribing oneself. The referendum is no different from the

:35:41.:35:44.

general election in this sense. It is a statement at the time of what

:35:45.:35:47.

people want in terms of the way policy is taken forward. If people's

:35:48.:35:51.

opinions change, it would be extraordinary. And I think the only

:35:52.:35:57.

way you can judge that is by looking and listening to what people are

:35:58.:36:01.

saying to you. Opinion polls can measure it. Like the opinion polls

:36:02.:36:07.

that told you your site was going to win the referendum? I am not sure I

:36:08.:36:12.

ever believe those polls. But they did. If you take a decision on the

:36:13.:36:19.

base of those polls... But what is the question that one might be

:36:20.:36:24.

asking. What the public have asked us to do is quite clear. They have

:36:25.:36:34.

given, by a majority of 1.2 million people, not insubstantial, they have

:36:35.:36:38.

said they want a fundamental change to the UK's relationship with the EU

:36:39.:36:42.

and they see that relationship as being one where we are outside of

:36:43.:36:46.

it. I have to respect that. And we have not got much time so I am going

:36:47.:36:50.

to interrupt. You have had a good save. Gisela Stuart, here is the

:36:51.:36:56.

point. There is a lot of people on the Labour side listening to Dominic

:36:57.:36:59.

Grieve and nodding their heads. Owen Smith, one of the leadership

:37:00.:37:04.

contenders, he basically wants a second referendum, and you are going

:37:05.:37:07.

to have to start gearing up for that. Do you fear that this could be

:37:08.:37:12.

foisted upon you? I think it would be a disastrous step because both

:37:13.:37:16.

political parties need to search why they were so out of step with the

:37:17.:37:20.

electorate, particularly the Labour Party. It is a Parliamentary

:37:21.:37:23.

democracy were we get elected to do a job and that is to either hold the

:37:24.:37:26.

government to account or to be the government. We have asked them and

:37:27.:37:31.

they have reflected, in large numbers, they have said that we want

:37:32.:37:35.

to leave. And they expect us to get on with the job. I am sorry to rush

:37:36.:37:37.

you but we have been short of time. It's just gone 11.35,

:37:38.:37:40.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:41.:37:42.

in Scotland and Wales, who leave us Hello and welcome to the last

:37:43.:37:51.

Sunday Politics Wales Owen Smith sets out his stall

:37:52.:37:53.

as he makes his bid And Elin Jones on her baptism

:37:54.:37:59.

of fire as the new Llywydd. My guests, Liz Silversmith

:38:00.:38:05.

and Nick Ramsay, will be here to discuss that and everything

:38:06.:38:07.

else that's happened in yet another massive political week,

:38:08.:38:10.

during which, by the way, But first, spare a thought

:38:11.:38:12.

for Carwyn Jones. Returned as First Minister,

:38:13.:38:18.

back in May he must have thought Now he's looking at a potential

:38:19.:38:21.

split in his party, a new Prime Minister in Westminster

:38:22.:38:25.

and Wales being sidelined in Europe. When I met up with him in his

:38:26.:38:29.

constituency office in Bridgend, I began by asking him

:38:30.:38:31.

about what his government was doing to make Wales' voice

:38:32.:38:34.

heard in Brussels. We have an office

:38:35.:38:39.

in Brussels anyway. What I have looked to do

:38:40.:38:41.

is to strengthen the office to make sure we have the right people

:38:42.:38:44.

there who can form part of any future negotiation

:38:45.:38:47.

with the European Union. We do that in parallel to the UK

:38:48.:38:51.

negotiations, it's not meant to be a separate process,

:38:52.:38:54.

but we need to make sure that You will note that Mark Drakeford,

:38:55.:38:57.

your finance secretary has sent a letter to the European Commission

:38:58.:39:02.

following their failure to turn up to a meeting -

:39:03.:39:05.

a regular, scheduled meeting about European funds

:39:06.:39:09.

and their allocation in Wales. He speaks of a concern

:39:10.:39:13.

of being frozen out Is that the sense you're

:39:14.:39:15.

getting at the moment? There's no doubt that the Commission

:39:16.:39:19.

has decided that it is not going to play a part in those

:39:20.:39:22.

meetings from now on. I think we're in a period,

:39:23.:39:25.

at the moment, of two sides The UK has said that it

:39:26.:39:28.

won't trigger Article 50 until there The EU said there will not be any

:39:29.:39:34.

informal negotiations At the moment, we are at an impasse

:39:35.:39:38.

and, over the next few weeks, Is it a concern that the European

:39:39.:39:44.

Commission aren't turning I mean, this is money

:39:45.:39:48.

which will be there until 2020. Do you have a sense as to why

:39:49.:39:52.

they're not actually engaging, perhaps, with the Welsh Government

:39:53.:39:55.

on already scheduled meetings? Clearly, the Commission have said,

:39:56.:39:59.

"From now on and don't play "Even in business

:40:00.:40:03.

that affects the EU." I can't explain the reasoning

:40:04.:40:08.

for that but that seems to be Mark Drakeford says,

:40:09.:40:10.

in his letter, that it is, "Of concern to stakeholders and

:40:11.:40:15.

partners, with whom we are working." They're difficult enough times

:40:16.:40:18.

for those people anyway, whereas if the European Commission

:40:19.:40:22.

stars to come out saying, "We're not talking to you at

:40:23.:40:26.

the moment," that makes it even What's really odd about it is

:40:27.:40:29.

that this is European money and we have the Commission saying,

:40:30.:40:33.

"We're not going to be involved in monitoring how

:40:34.:40:36.

the money is spent." It is very difficult for us but it

:40:37.:40:38.

just seems like a strange position for the Commission to adopt

:40:39.:40:41.

at this stage. Are you concerned this is how

:40:42.:40:43.

it is going to be from now on or do you think that this might resolve

:40:44.:40:47.

itself, given a bit of time? I've long given up trying to predict

:40:48.:40:50.

what is going to happen. This is so new that nobody knows

:40:51.:40:53.

what will happen next. Nobody knows when Article 50 will be

:40:54.:40:55.

triggered to startthe process This is the absolutely crucial bit -

:40:56.:40:59.

nobody knows what the trade deal For me, the absolute red line

:41:00.:41:05.

is that Welsh businesses must have free access

:41:06.:41:09.

to the European single market. It will be very difficult for us

:41:10.:41:13.

to attract investments if we have to say to investors,

:41:14.:41:19.

"If we are to sell to the market in Europe, there will be a 5%

:41:20.:41:22.

tariff or a 10% tariff." Having that free access

:41:23.:41:25.

is absolutely vital for us. I want to come on in a moment

:41:26.:41:30.

to talk about Theresa May, our new Prime Minister

:41:31.:41:33.

and the relationship there. One of the things she has done

:41:34.:41:36.

is put David Davis in charge of the Brexit negotiations,

:41:37.:41:39.

the Secretary of State Have you had any discussions

:41:40.:41:44.

with him? How do you think he will work

:41:45.:41:47.

in collaboration with her? What it is that worries me

:41:48.:41:50.

is that he seems not to be worried about having to operate under WTO

:41:51.:41:54.

rules were tariffs are in place. In fact, he seems to argue

:41:55.:41:57.

they are a good thing. If you have tariffs on goods

:41:58.:42:00.

entering in the UK, that might mean ?2 billion extra

:42:01.:42:03.

for the UK Government. This is a tax that people,

:42:04.:42:05.

individuals, will pay. At the end of the day,

:42:06.:42:07.

it means an extra tax for British citizens when they buy things,

:42:08.:42:13.

it goes straight to This is not an advantage as far

:42:14.:42:15.

as people are concerned. That struck me as worrying

:42:16.:42:19.

that he did not see the importance of the single market and operating

:42:20.:42:22.

in a situation where, for example, if we can export steel into the EU,

:42:23.:42:26.

there would be a tariff If Welsh farmers want to export lamb

:42:27.:42:29.

to the European We have to do everything we can

:42:30.:42:33.

to avoid that scenario occurring. Do you think it would make sense

:42:34.:42:41.

for the Welsh Government to have its own Brexit Minister

:42:42.:42:44.

who does nothing else but talk with David Davies,

:42:45.:42:47.

think about these trade But you have an awful lot

:42:48.:42:49.

of other things to do. There can't be

:42:50.:42:56.

a minister from Brexit. I have a limited number

:42:57.:42:59.

of ministers I can appoint, The reality is that we can do this

:43:00.:43:03.

anyway, with working... Not just me, but the Cabinet

:43:04.:43:08.

and other parties as well. We had discussions with Plaid Cymru

:43:09.:43:10.

on this issue. We do need a team in Brussels,

:43:11.:43:12.

that's being set up. That is one of the

:43:13.:43:20.

first things I did after the referendum was say,

:43:21.:43:24.

"We need people in place of experience, political issue

:43:25.:43:26.

into over Brussels to advise us on what doors might be

:43:27.:43:29.

possible to open. Because people have

:43:30.:43:31.

voted to leave the EU. Even though the Welsh people

:43:32.:43:33.

voted to leave the EU, And our job is to make sure

:43:34.:43:38.

that we acknowledge their decision, don't try to overturn it,

:43:39.:43:43.

but also make sure that they are not One of the other big issues,

:43:44.:43:46.

I guess, facing the UK Which at the moment does not

:43:47.:43:50.

hinder the operating Do you have concerns, for example,

:43:51.:43:55.

when you see the Wales Government in Parliament last week

:43:56.:44:00.

and practically not a single Welsh Labour MP was therefore that

:44:01.:44:02.

very important discussion, because they are embroiled in this

:44:03.:44:06.

civil war, edging to the? How much of a concern is that

:44:07.:44:10.

when you see that? If I sat here and told you that

:44:11.:44:16.

I think things are fine, We are in a very different position

:44:17.:44:19.

as a party. I said some weeks ago

:44:20.:44:23.

that we do have a contest. It looks as if we're going to get

:44:24.:44:26.

that in order to resolve this issue but you're not in any state to fight

:44:27.:44:29.

an election at the moment. So, we need to get this resolved

:44:30.:44:33.

and get ourselves united, and effective for the people

:44:34.:44:35.

who look to us for leadership. Would you welcome seeing

:44:36.:44:38.

a Welsh Labour MP leading the party? I've always said in years gone by,

:44:39.:44:42.

and I'll be doing the same this time arrived, that I never actually

:44:43.:44:46.

declare an favour of a candidate It's not me who support somebody

:44:47.:44:48.

as a candidate to be a party I've always kept my counsel in terms

:44:49.:44:54.

of supporting anybody. We've had a very busy period

:44:55.:45:05.

of a couple of months, do you anticipate or perhaps hope

:45:06.:45:08.

for a slightly calmer Normally, after an election,

:45:09.:45:10.

things quite and down for a while. If you'd have said to me a few

:45:11.:45:15.

months ago that Boris Johnson with the Foreign Secretary,

:45:16.:45:32.

I'd have been stunned The world is in such a unusual

:45:33.:45:34.

place at the moment, Britons and a very unusual place,

:45:35.:45:40.

that it is difficult to make any What I do know is that there

:45:41.:45:43.

are so many people in Wales and in Britain who need to make sure

:45:44.:45:47.

that they feel they are represented by a party that looks

:45:48.:45:51.

after their needs, and we should Carwyn Jones outlining the

:45:52.:45:53.

challenges. Could Labour go for another

:45:54.:45:58.

Welshman as its leader? Later today Owen Smith

:45:59.:46:00.

will launch his bid. The Pontypridd MP left

:46:01.:46:02.

Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet during the mass resignations

:46:03.:46:04.

which followed the Brexit vote. Away from the Westminster bubble,

:46:05.:46:06.

Cemlyn Davies has been to Mr Smith's political back yard,

:46:07.:46:09.

to see how the prospect of a local boy with national dreams

:46:10.:46:11.

has gone down there. This time straddles the river Taff,

:46:12.:46:27.

its famous bridge uniting East and West, right and left. The town's MP

:46:28.:46:31.

think he can do the same for a deeply divided party. Owen Smith

:46:32.:46:35.

hopes to replace Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader, and he does have the

:46:36.:46:39.

support of many local party members who believe he can do what Jeremy

:46:40.:46:45.

Corbyn cannot. What Owen possesses that Jeremy does not is leadership

:46:46.:46:48.

skills. I think you need that to unify the party, both wings, and we

:46:49.:46:55.

need a win to uniform all of it. He is part of the moderate left. Many

:46:56.:46:59.

of the policies currently espoused by the Labour Party, he is part of

:47:00.:47:07.

the development of. So if we have Owen Smith is our leader, we will

:47:08.:47:10.

have somebody who is very credible in government, but we will also have

:47:11.:47:14.

someone who will take the party in the direction that clearly many

:47:15.:47:18.

people, especially the people of Pontypridd, want us to go in. But of

:47:19.:47:23.

course Jeremy Corbyn has an army of loyal and passionate supporters who

:47:24.:47:26.

believe their elected leader has been unfairly treated and should be

:47:27.:47:31.

allowed to carry on with his work. I met up with two of them in

:47:32.:47:36.

Pontypridd. He has done a lot of good things in a short period of

:47:37.:47:42.

time, and with opposition from his own party memories, so given the

:47:43.:47:45.

right team and a team attitude he might be able to achieve a lot. He

:47:46.:47:50.

has not been given that opportunity. Do you think that Jeremy Corbyn can

:47:51.:47:54.

realistically win a general election as Labour Leader? I think in time he

:47:55.:48:02.

can. In time. I think in time he can. Jeremy Corbyn has always stayed

:48:03.:48:08.

true to his principle, he has always fought for social equality, he has

:48:09.:48:15.

been the only prominent member of Parliament that has actually fought

:48:16.:48:19.

against austerity. Owen Smith is coming up with anti-austerity, and

:48:20.:48:23.

so is Angela Eagle, just copying him. With Owen Smith now hoping to

:48:24.:48:29.

be Labour Leader, this constituency and town finds itself reflecting the

:48:30.:48:32.

deep division within the party nationally. Between those who still

:48:33.:48:37.

firmly support Jeremy Corbyn's entrenched left-wing views, and

:48:38.:48:42.

those who believe he must be replaced by a more moderate

:48:43.:48:45.

politician if Labour is to have any chance of regaining power. That

:48:46.:48:50.

division may extend to Owen Smith's own constituency office, an office

:48:51.:48:54.

he shares with his assembly counterparts and long-time Corbin

:48:55.:49:03.

supporter. He said he will not be commenting on any of the candidates

:49:04.:49:05.

in this leadership election, but last month, anticipating a contest,

:49:06.:49:10.

he said he would be supporting the current leader. 35 years ago,

:49:11.:49:13.

similar tensions within Labour led to the formation of a new political

:49:14.:49:20.

party. I cannot any longer conceive of my acute concern about some of

:49:21.:49:23.

the developments in the Labour Party which will not enhance the prospects

:49:24.:49:28.

of the Labour Party and also affect the long-term unity of the Labour

:49:29.:49:34.

movement. This man was the Labour MP when he wrote this letter to local

:49:35.:49:38.

party members in 1974. A few years later, concerned Labour was drifting

:49:39.:49:46.

too far to the left, he set up the social Democratic party along with

:49:47.:49:49.

others. How does this current crisis compare? This is bigger. First of

:49:50.:49:56.

all, there is a mass movement which Jeremy Corbyn leads, which is

:49:57.:50:01.

saying, this is how we want the party run. And there is a

:50:02.:50:07.

parliamentary party, strong, vast majority of them, think in a

:50:08.:50:13.

different way. That was not how it was in the 1970s. As social

:50:14.:50:19.

Democrats and rebels were in a very small minority. So is another split

:50:20.:50:28.

on a much greater scale inevitable? The Labour Party is in dire trouble,

:50:29.:50:32.

in dire trouble of splitting. Whether it will split in the next

:50:33.:50:37.

nine months or so, I am not so sure. But they are on that road. I think a

:50:38.:50:46.

real risk. Totally. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn wants that to happen,

:50:47.:50:49.

I do not think that he will have brought it, he did not bring a coup

:50:50.:50:55.

against himself, did he? I don't think there is a danger of the party

:50:56.:50:58.

spitting but it is a possible that interfere and we have to do

:50:59.:51:01.

everything we can to stop that from happening. -- a possibility and a

:51:02.:51:09.

fear. William Edwards took for attempts to build this bridge --

:51:10.:51:13.

four. As for uniting the Labour Party, or that the bridge too far?

:51:14.:51:18.

-- could that be a bridge too far? Well, when my colleague

:51:19.:51:20.

James Williams caught up with Owen Smith, he began

:51:21.:51:24.

by asking him whether he was making party divisions worse

:51:25.:51:26.

by challenging Jeremy Corbyn. No. Because the four I decided to

:51:27.:51:41.

challenge Jeremy Corbyn, a members had voted no confidence in him. His

:51:42.:51:47.

entire Shadow Cabinet had resided. -- 172. -- resigned. The question is

:51:48.:51:54.

now hard to heal that divide and I spent ten days trying to talk to

:51:55.:51:59.

journey, 121, with his team about how I could help frame some sort of

:52:00.:52:09.

deal or compromise to bring the party together. -- one-two-one. In a

:52:10.:52:12.

united and powerful fashion that we need to. He was not prepared to

:52:13.:52:15.

accept any of those compromises. At that point I felt,

:52:16.:52:22.

as Angela Eagle felt, that the only way to try and bring

:52:23.:52:24.

the Labour Party together and make it not only a powerful opposition

:52:25.:52:28.

but a radical, credible government in waiting,

:52:29.:52:30.

was to challenge Jeremy and seek to, in my case, put the stamp

:52:31.:52:33.

of a new generation of Labour men Do you think Jeremy Corbyn's support

:52:34.:52:36.

within the Labour Party I don't quite know what you mean

:52:37.:52:40.

by that, I think Jeremy Corbyn got elected with a very large

:52:41.:52:47.

mandate in the membership. But the Labour Party is a coalition,

:52:48.:52:49.

it is a coalition of the trade unions, members of the Labour Party,

:52:50.:52:53.

the socialist societies, affiliated societies,

:52:54.:52:55.

and the Parliamentary Labour Party, and if you are the Labour Party

:52:56.:53:03.

leader, you have got be able to command respect

:53:04.:53:06.

and support and be a leader in all of those different parts

:53:07.:53:09.

of the party, and what is evident is that Jeremy is not someone who,

:53:10.:53:13.

as a leader, can command the support and trust and faith

:53:14.:53:15.

of the Parliamentary Labour Party. And that is enormously important

:53:16.:53:19.

because Labour was created by the trade union movement to be

:53:20.:53:21.

representation in Parliament. The route to socialism

:53:22.:53:32.

we want to pursue is the Parliamentary route,

:53:33.:53:34.

and therefore you have got to be able to be a credible,

:53:35.:53:36.

active, powerful opposition to the Government of the day,

:53:37.:53:38.

and you have got to stand ready to be the next Government,

:53:39.:53:44.

a credible Government that Many of us feel that under Jeremy,

:53:45.:53:46.

the Labour Party is not in a position to win back people's

:53:47.:53:50.

trust, it doesn't look like a credible opposition,

:53:51.:53:53.

certainly does not look Here we are teetering on the brink

:53:54.:53:55.

of another recession, six years into a Tory Government

:53:56.:54:01.

that has destroyed livelihoods of many people across this country

:54:02.:54:04.

with completely self-defeating austerity, and Labour looks a long,

:54:05.:54:08.

long way from power, and that is not something working

:54:09.:54:11.

people can afford. I mean it any sense that is not a

:54:12.:54:20.

danger whether you or Angela Eagle wind that Jeremy Corbyn's supporters

:54:21.:54:30.

could split from the party? If he winds, that that mean that part of

:54:31.:54:36.

your party will split? How far with that. I think some people on the far

:54:37.:54:39.

left of the Labour Party will sit in a position and see that there is an

:54:40.:54:44.

extra parliamentary route to socialism, the street, if you like.

:54:45.:54:49.

They may feel that Parliament is less important in place as a

:54:50.:54:55.

crucible for debate and for making our socialist values and policy and

:54:56.:55:02.

practice. But it left and right they are engaging in this battle they

:55:03.:55:07.

unfortunately become a bit fatalistic and limbs of the prospect

:55:08.:55:11.

of a split. I am a better light on this, as with a lot of issues.

:55:12.:55:15.

Romney, it is the Labour Party are nothing but a really great as

:55:16.:55:19.

vehicle for social movement and we're one of the great British

:55:20.:55:23.

institution that has bound people together for a century. It would be

:55:24.:55:26.

a catastrophic split any Labour Party and a catastrophe for working

:55:27.:55:33.

people if they were not to stand up for them. -- we were not to stand

:55:34.:55:38.

up. Unfortunately, there is a far right movement in this country on

:55:39.:55:43.

the rise and we need to stand together and unite, but crucially

:55:44.:55:46.

have a Government in waiting. You think that only be one challenges to

:55:47.:55:53.

Jeremy Corbyn's there is a widespread view in the Labour Party

:55:54.:55:59.

that it would be preferable. Do you think so? Yes, I think we need to

:56:00.:56:06.

find a way at which we get to that. It's not for me to determine that. I

:56:07.:56:11.

am one of the challenges and IM happy to submit myself to what ever

:56:12.:56:15.

decision-making process is derived at by the party or indeed by anyone.

:56:16.:56:23.

What is decided, I will support that and I will make my case any positive

:56:24.:56:29.

fashion and elderly people will be interested in what I have got to say

:56:30.:56:32.

and TV that I am someone who can unite the party and resided present

:56:33.:56:39.

for us. Both the radicalism of Jeremy Corbyn but with a pragmatic,

:56:40.:56:43.

credible edge that people will see that this is not just a bunch of

:56:44.:56:47.

slogans, these are a set of policies that Labour can deliver and then we

:56:48.:56:52.

will deliver real meaningful change for people's lies. Anti-austerities

:56:53.:56:56.

a great slogan but you have to say how you can tune into prosperity for

:56:57.:57:02.

people with hard-headed policy. The backrest and nine. Would you be

:57:03.:57:09.

willing, if you are not the Challenger two Jeremy Corbyn, to

:57:10.:57:13.

pull out of the race? -- with that question in mind. Likewise, would

:57:14.:57:18.

you expect other candidates to pull out? We will cross that bridge when

:57:19.:57:23.

we get to it. There are only three candidates. I think we need to wait

:57:24.:57:29.

and see what the view of the Parliamentary Labour Party is. That

:57:30.:57:34.

is their job. That is the job of MPs at this stage. They have to decide

:57:35.:57:38.

who is the best candidate and whether they like? Who do they think

:57:39.:57:43.

is best placed to lead our party? I will put my trust in my colleagues

:57:44.:57:46.

to make a decision. Whatever they decide, I will abide by it. I am

:57:47.:57:51.

here to serve the Labour Party but I am also come in this moment trying

:57:52.:57:54.

to save the Labour Party because, if someone does not stand up and say,

:57:55.:57:59.

he was how we stand up and unite, he was a programme we can get behind in

:58:00.:58:02.

Parliament, in the country, we will not succeed. You seem to agree with

:58:03.:58:08.

a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's policies that they agree with the content

:58:09.:58:11.

that you say you are a better package. I do agree with a lot of

:58:12.:58:16.

things that Jeremy Corbyn is. I served because, not just buy within

:58:17.:58:21.

the Labour Party, but because I thought Jeremy articulated what me

:58:22.:58:24.

and a lot of others feel that we became acute unit in it to

:58:25.:58:29.

managerial list. Austerity is completely self defeatist. Anyone,

:58:30.:58:38.

in the mix or economics, will tell you can cut your growth in a

:58:39.:58:43.

business. That he was articulate by Jackie go beyond it. You have to say

:58:44.:58:49.

how you will do this, what are the policies and we have do go from

:58:50.:58:55.

protesting against austerity saying how we deliver prosperity. I can do

:58:56.:58:59.

that. In doing that, I can appeal to a broad is we -- sweep of the

:59:00.:59:07.

British public. We have got to appeal and build a coalition in the

:59:08.:59:11.

country. We have always got to appeal to people. We cannot think of

:59:12.:59:19.

people in terms of class. I think I have the skills and ideas to do

:59:20.:59:20.

that. Thank you very much. Plenty to chew over with my guests

:59:21.:59:24.

then, the political analyst Liz Silversmith and the

:59:25.:59:26.

Conservative AM Nick Ramsay. Thank you both very much coming in

:59:27.:59:36.

this morning. You spent most of your time looking and analysing political

:59:37.:59:40.

parties. Let's just pick up where the Labour Party is at the moment.

:59:41.:59:44.

What they make of what is going on there? I just think about how it was

:59:45.:59:48.

12 months ago when Harriet Harman was the acting leader and a bachelor

:59:49.:59:51.

that go with tax credits that votes are not. Ideally, it has changed so

:59:52.:00:02.

much. You can see the Alan Smith -- Owen. His first thing was to say it

:00:03.:00:06.

is a political choice, not an economic ties. We have seen the

:00:07.:00:09.

repercussions of a lot of change in the party. Is there an element here

:00:10.:00:19.

of Angela Eagle and Owen Smith barring quite heavily from Jeremy

:00:20.:00:29.

Corbyn's policies -- boring? -- borrowing? Do they realise that they

:00:30.:00:34.

have to copy Jeremy Corbyn to beat him? They realise his policies are

:00:35.:00:39.

quite popular. There is a reason people are joining Labour. Whatever

:00:40.:00:46.

the ball is, it is not to do with the actual policies. It is quite a

:00:47.:00:52.

change to what it is in your last 12 months. They are moderate, slightly

:00:53.:00:58.

left and moderate and then not quite so left. There is a lot of boxes for

:00:59.:01:04.

people to fit in. I was going to say put your party views to one side but

:01:05.:01:07.

that is not possible, how do you view it from another side? Harold

:01:08.:01:13.

Wilson once said that a week is a long time in politics and that has

:01:14.:01:17.

never been more true. Politically, I suppose, for my party, for the

:01:18.:01:21.

Conservatives, we are not going to worry if the opposition party is in

:01:22.:01:25.

turmoil. You could say that makes it easier for us to get on with what

:01:26.:01:29.

you're doing however, I do think that in a democracy, gave -- you

:01:30.:01:36.

need a viable opposition and at the moment, that is not Labour. They

:01:37.:01:39.

need to look very closely at who they choose so that the country does

:01:40.:01:45.

have a choice in the future. And what do you think? Is any chance...

:01:46.:01:52.

I know Theresa May has ruled out but do you think she might be tempted

:01:53.:01:58.

for a general election in the autumn? It's a very similar problem

:01:59.:02:01.

to Gordon Brown. If you call that now, she will win. If you call it

:02:02.:02:07.

early, no one will be prepared. The Conservatives are the only ones who

:02:08.:02:10.

can afford an election at the moment. The thing is, with assembly

:02:11.:02:15.

elections and another referendum, and the general election, the

:02:16.:02:18.

parties have no money. Labour spent ?5 million in the referendum

:02:19.:02:23.

campaign. She could call it but I doubt it. Speaking of money, we were

:02:24.:02:29.

hearing from Carwyn Jones about the concerns he has with Mark Drake said

:02:30.:02:40.

-- Drakeford. They are saying the EU officials will not talk to them. How

:02:41.:02:44.

much of a concern is that? If it is the case, it is concerning. We are

:02:45.:02:49.

still in the early days. Article 50 has not been invoked yet. Let's see

:02:50.:02:53.

how this pans out. I know certainly that the new Prime Minister has said

:02:54.:02:57.

she wants Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to be very active

:02:58.:03:00.

in the discussions. I would love that bewilderment would be as

:03:01.:03:03.

involved as possible. They need to be. I'm sure Carwyn Jones would

:03:04.:03:07.

agree that if he was here. You've got a lot of public bodies that you

:03:08.:03:13.

work with, European brands and so on. It must be very unsettling for

:03:14.:03:18.

them anyway, especially now with European Commission and the

:03:19.:03:20.

officials there starting to say that we are not going to be engaged with

:03:21.:03:25.

the Welsh Government. -- grants. Yes, we have also heard before the

:03:26.:03:31.

referendum and during, Wales was in that beneficiary fund and a lot of

:03:32.:03:39.

it relies on EU funding. I'll Wales has got its own unique concerns and

:03:40.:03:43.

issues that it wants to race. It will have to have a really strong

:03:44.:03:48.

relationship with the Brexit team in the UK Government to be heard,

:03:49.:03:52.

otherwise it will get washed out. We cannot afford to get this wrong. We

:03:53.:03:55.

are heavily reliant on these funds as we need to know that there will

:03:56.:04:00.

be more money coming to us, we know it will through the Barnett formula

:04:01.:04:05.

but we have to get this right. How much pressure of the thinkers on the

:04:06.:04:08.

UK Government and the likes of David Davis who have said that Wells will

:04:09.:04:16.

not lose out financially? -- Liam Fox. I have confidence that Theresa

:04:17.:04:22.

May is the person to lead as any discussions. We have a third rate

:04:23.:04:26.

Prime Minister at the right point but never have we needed a unified

:04:27.:04:38.

Government. -- a first rate. We cannot afford to get this wrong. The

:04:39.:04:42.

Welsh economy is too important. Thank you very much but we will move

:04:43.:04:43.

on for now. She's been an AM since the Assembly

:04:44.:04:45.

started, a minister too. Now Elin Jones has landed in the big

:04:46.:04:47.

chair, as Llywydd, the referee And she's had to draw

:04:48.:04:50.

on all her experience to deal with, shall we say, a series

:04:51.:04:54.

of challenging incidents When I spoke to her in the chamber,

:04:55.:04:56.

I began by asking whether the past few weeks had been livelier

:04:57.:05:01.

than she'd expected? I'm pleased to have been elected

:05:02.:05:04.

as the Presiding Officer, the Llywydd, for the National

:05:05.:05:09.

Assembly. I want there to be lively debate

:05:10.:05:10.

in this chamber that reflects the priorities and interests

:05:11.:05:13.

of people in Wales. We have one new party,

:05:14.:05:16.

for the first time, elected They have views that may be

:05:17.:05:18.

quite different to some of the political views held by other

:05:19.:05:27.

political parties here. All those views have to be heard

:05:28.:05:30.

and that political challenge As long as everything is in order,

:05:31.:05:33.

I will allow that debate to happen because people in Wales voted

:05:34.:05:38.

in a variety of different ways in May and all those voices need

:05:39.:05:40.

to be heard and reflected in this I guess, in terms of those

:05:41.:05:43.

discussions central to this place over the next few years,

:05:44.:05:53.

nothing will be more important than those discussions over leaving

:05:54.:05:55.

the European Union - thousands of pieces of legislation

:05:56.:05:58.

need to be unpicked - How central will that be to this

:05:59.:06:01.

place over the next few years? Well, there is a danger that it can

:06:02.:06:07.

dominate, completely, the work of this place

:06:08.:06:10.

because it is such a huge There is a danger, isn't there,

:06:11.:06:12.

that many of the discussions about leaving the European Union

:06:13.:06:20.

and I'm taking the legislation and the funding will happen

:06:21.:06:23.

behind closed doors, between Government ministers and EU

:06:24.:06:25.

Commission officials. I want this place to open

:06:26.:06:29.

up that debate. We have already established

:06:30.:06:33.

a committee that will lead on that work for this National Assembly

:06:34.:06:37.

but I'm sure that every committee and this chamber in particular

:06:38.:06:39.

will focus quite significantly over But the danger, of course,

:06:40.:06:42.

is that there are many other aspects of work that are untouched, almost,

:06:43.:06:51.

to an extent by the EU exit and those areas cannot be ignored

:06:52.:06:55.

or sidelined, even. The future of our NHS,

:06:56.:07:00.

education and general economic They all need to have

:07:01.:07:03.

their place here as well. Sure, and we're already

:07:04.:07:09.

being told... Assembly members already claim

:07:10.:07:10.

that they are overworked. When you add to that workload

:07:11.:07:12.

with the possibility of Brexit, with the possibility

:07:13.:07:17.

of different tax powers. Is there a case to be made now that,

:07:18.:07:20.

at the very least, Assembly members should be staying

:07:21.:07:26.

here for longer hours? Could they come in on a Thursday

:07:27.:07:29.

rather than a Wednesday? I have no doubt that the next five

:07:30.:07:32.

years will prove a very difficult time for Assembly members

:07:33.:07:38.

in terms of their workload. We have already extended

:07:39.:07:44.

the formal calendar week of the National Assembly

:07:45.:07:52.

since I've become Llywydd. We need to look at that again

:07:53.:07:57.

at some point if matters We've already agreed

:07:58.:08:01.

to lessen the recess period of the National Assembly for this

:08:02.:08:09.

year and I suspect we may have Assembly members are going to have

:08:10.:08:12.

to work out harder than they've ever worked before, given the increased

:08:13.:08:18.

workload that will come with needing to ensure that Wales' interests

:08:19.:08:20.

are properly looked after in terms of getting the EU exit to work

:08:21.:08:29.

in Wales' interests and that is a big job

:08:30.:08:33.

for the Assembly members. Elin Jones there, the second woman

:08:34.:08:37.

to be the Presiding Officer, and indeed this week the UK

:08:38.:08:40.

got its second female My guests are still here to talk

:08:41.:08:42.

about that and everything else First of all, to pick up on what

:08:43.:08:56.

Elin Jones was saying, you're probably going to have to work

:08:57.:09:00.

longer hours, work harder, is that what you're expecting? Yes, and we

:09:01.:09:06.

were expecting that from the moment tax powers were promised to the

:09:07.:09:09.

Assembly, from the moment we got further powers in 2007. There are

:09:10.:09:14.

only 60 of us, so compared with the 600 or so in Parliament there is a

:09:15.:09:17.

greater burden on each Assembly member. As the discussion gone away

:09:18.:09:23.

for the time being despite the increased workload? It has, for the

:09:24.:09:29.

time being, because there are so many other things to discuss, it has

:09:30.:09:32.

been squeezed out! That will come back at some point, the 60-70

:09:33.:09:37.

members are there for five years to do that job, but we will have

:09:38.:09:40.

discussion about further numbers in the next few years. One of the

:09:41.:09:45.

things Elin Jones was saying is that even though exit decisions are going

:09:46.:09:51.

to be very important over the next few years, it must not be at the

:09:52.:09:55.

expense of health and hospitals and schools, education. How difficult

:09:56.:10:01.

balances that? It is difficult, because these things have

:10:02.:10:04.

implications on everything. We cannot simply focus on the funds and

:10:05.:10:08.

what we have lost. But how was that going to impact on the functioning

:10:09.:10:12.

of society? We have got a massive load of education reforms coming

:10:13.:10:17.

through this term. The NHS continues to be massively changing, and they

:10:18.:10:19.

are trying to amalgamate health and social services more. Those things

:10:20.:10:24.

cannot be left by the wayside. With the more powers coming, you cannot

:10:25.:10:29.

lose scrutiny on those sites. Are the AM is up to it? Is the calibre

:10:30.:10:36.

there to grapple with these huge challenges? I think there is. The

:10:37.:10:45.

case will come back that we have less public money to use. It was a

:10:46.:10:49.

little bit concerning in terms of Ukip entering, because they do not

:10:50.:10:56.

tend to believe and evolution. -- believe in evolution. Although you

:10:57.:11:02.

may not believe in this institution existing, you must take part in the

:11:03.:11:07.

scrutiny that. But we have seen Ukip engaging and getting into the

:11:08.:11:11.

issues. As long as they pull their weight, everybody can pull together

:11:12.:11:17.

to make sure it works. It is not only Westminster which will have to

:11:18.:11:21.

look at which European legislation it replaces replicates, there will

:11:22.:11:25.

be an increasing role for the Assembly to look at environmental

:11:26.:11:28.

legislation, for instance, that we have to do in Cardiff. Another huge

:11:29.:11:36.

thing that has happened this week, Theresa May as the Prime Minister.

:11:37.:11:41.

From the assembly point of view, what do you expect for change? In

:11:42.:11:46.

the short term, I do not think things will change. David Cameron

:11:47.:11:50.

was a very good Prime Minister in terms of engaging with us. I think

:11:51.:11:56.

Theresa May will be the same. Do you know how she views Wales and the

:11:57.:12:03.

Assembly? She is a liberal Conservative, so I do not think she

:12:04.:12:05.

will be trying to roll back on devolution. I think she will be

:12:06.:12:12.

looking to make the Welsh devolution settlement and the Constitution of

:12:13.:12:15.

the UK as a whole work better. That work has to be done with the Welsh

:12:16.:12:18.

civic society, and I'm looking forward to working with them. The

:12:19.:12:25.

fact that Theresa May went to see Nicola Sturgeon yesterday, she will

:12:26.:12:29.

be in Wales shortly. What do you think in terms of the constitutional

:12:30.:12:33.

debate will happen? Will it trickle down to Wales? Hopefully. But it

:12:34.:12:40.

will depend on whether Carwyn Jones it's himself forward. She went to

:12:41.:12:48.

see Nicola Sturgeon straightaway, and she demanded it. I think Carwyn

:12:49.:12:54.

Jones has to demand, in a way that we have to be around the table, it

:12:55.:12:58.

cannot just be Scotland then Wales over here. It has to be part of the

:12:59.:13:04.

same thing. There will be more calls for constitutional convention, that

:13:05.:13:06.

will become stronger. Hopefully she will be receptive to that. Just

:13:07.:13:14.

quickly, have you known a period like this in terms of politics, the

:13:15.:13:17.

likes of which we have seen since the end of June? I was born a few

:13:18.:13:24.

days after the 1975 referendum, and I do not think we have had such a

:13:25.:13:27.

tumultuous times since then. Briefly on Theresa May, I believe we will be

:13:28.:13:33.

seeing the Prime Minister visiting Wales sooner rather than later.

:13:34.:13:36.

There is an opportunity there for Carwyn Jones to raise these issues

:13:37.:13:41.

that mean a lot to us. Is a quieter period on the cards now? You cannot

:13:42.:13:45.

say that, probably not. We're off for a rest

:13:46.:13:46.

for a few weeks. Twitter never rests, of course,

:13:47.:13:48.

so you can follow us there - we're @walespolitics but for now

:13:49.:13:51.

that's all from me till September. Thanks for watching,

:13:52.:13:54.

and bye for now. This week, Gregg and Chris

:13:55.:14:12.

show how spending less on food... ..might be easier... It took me

:14:13.:14:16.

literally two minutes to make it.

:14:17.:14:20.

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