Browse content similar to 17/07/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Morning folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
After Friday's failed coup, the crackdown in Turkey begins | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
with thousands of arrests and threats of retribution, | :00:49. | :00:49. | |
including the death penalty for rebels. | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
What does the turmoil mean for Turkey's future, | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
Nato and the fight against Islamic State? | :00:55. | :01:02. | |
I wish you all the best and I am supporting you all the way. Do I get | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
a hug? Jeremy Corbyn's confident | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
that his fans will ensure he's re-elected - but he tells us | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
that the rules of Labour's leadership election are unfair | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
and the party's national executive She was a "Remainer" | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
but Theresa May's promised Later in the programme, the cold | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
and take us out of the EU - Later in the programme, the cold | :01:20. | :01:31. | |
shoulder. Carwyn Jones is worried well to being ignored by Brussels | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
after Brexit. Since we broadcast last week, | :01:34. | :01:43. | |
a new Prime Minister, a new government, carnage in Nice | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
and an attempted coup in Turkey. The unexpected is now | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
commonplace, major news events But one thing that doesn't change | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
here on Sunday mornings is that we always bring you the best | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
and the brightest political panel in the business - | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott So Friday night's attempted army | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
coup in Turkey failed and President Erdogan has moved | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
ruthlessly to re-establish He says the coup was "a gift from | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
God" because it gives him a reason A major clampdown on dissent is now | :02:15. | :02:24. | |
widely anticipated, Let's get the latest | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
from our Correspondent Is it underway? Is it expected to be | :02:28. | :02:47. | |
pretty ruthless? Yes. It is underway. The crackdown has already | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
taken place. Around 3000 soldiers have been detained including | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
high-ranking generals and around 3000 judges have been dismissed from | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
their posts. Many judges have also been detained. President Recep | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
Tayyip Erdogan had already said that those behind the coup attempt would | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
be paying a heavy price and that is what we are seeing at the moment. | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
Many people think that the crackdown will further deepen. The government | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
thinks that the movement of Fethullah Gulen is behind this | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
attempt. That is something that Fethullah Gulen denies. He is a | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
cleric based in Pennsylvania, Annex aisle who used to be on good terms | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
with the government, and Mr Hird one himself. -- Mr Erdogan. Fethullah | :03:42. | :03:54. | |
Gulen has said he has been involved includes himself, but he played no | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
part in this one. Although the square would normally be packed with | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
hundreds of tourists, the beauty of Istanbul being celebrated, but last | :04:08. | :04:09. | |
night it was a different story, packed with hundreds of supporters | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
of the government, chanting slogans like, God is great, in protest of | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
the coup attempt. They adhered to the call coming from President | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
Erdogan to take it out to the streets. They were jubilant because | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
they felt empowered, in the part they played in suppressing the coup | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
attempt. If there was a source of resistance to President is Erdogan, | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
it was not the army, and I would suggest that he is going to take | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
over the army, and he will have complete control. He was already | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
pretty authoritarian before this happened. Is Turkey now in danger of | :04:46. | :04:54. | |
a dictatorship? That is a question that many people asked. In Turkey | :04:55. | :05:03. | |
and in the world. People who do not necessarily aligned themselves with | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
the government policies were already cautious about Mr Erdogan's | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
tendencies about getting more executive powers. It is no secret | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
that President Erdogan once to change the parliamentary system in | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
Turkey to a presidential system which would give him powers that no | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
other president has seen before in Turkey. And now that he has managed | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
to suppress this coup attempt, many people in Turkey fear that this | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
could actually play into the hands of Mr Hird one, and turn the country | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
into an alt. Chrissie, as you have said. -- way into the hands of Mr | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
Erdogan. But on the other hand, Mr Erdogan's supporters are jubilant | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
and they think that this was a victory of democracy. Yesterday the | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
Turkish parliament convened an extraordinary session and all the | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
opposition parties supported the government. The portrayed a stand | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
against the coup attempt. The Prime Minister thanked them and said that | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
this could be a threshold moment for Turkish politics but considering | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
that Turkey is a polarised country and politics is divided, whether the | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
government can bring everybody together after these 48 hours of | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
trauma, it is a difficult task. They give very much. -- thank you very | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
much. We're joined by the Foreign Affairs | :06:33. | :06:33. | |
analyst, Tim Marshall. Let's look back at what happened | :06:34. | :06:41. | |
here. The Turkish army, traditionally does not like Islamist | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
leaning governments and has mounted three successful coups, turning | :06:46. | :06:55. | |
Turkey to a more secular at two secular government. What was this, a | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
gang that could not shoot straight or the keystone cops to make a bit | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
of both. It was white, they did most of the right things but they did not | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
have the depth above them. Above them, they had no support. They made | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
two massive errors. They did not kill President Erdogan. That is the | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
first thing you should do. I am not advocating it! It is a 101 guide to | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
coups! But that is paragraph one, kill or at least capture the | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
president. And shut down the media. They went to the state television, | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
and in the 20th century, all the media was in one building and you | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
would close it down. But they forgot that in the 21st-century, there was | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
CNN Turkey still on a, and they did not close down social media, so Mr | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
Erdogan, who hates social media and Twitter, pepper and -- | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
hypocritically gets onto Facebook and says to Turkey, get into the | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
streets and because the coup is white and not deep, very soon the | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
call to prayer goes out, and they know it is not the proper time, and | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
it means going to the street. Within half an hour, the people outnumber | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
the troops and the pendulum swings the other way. If Turkey faces a | :08:15. | :08:23. | |
serious clamp-down, a move from authoritarianism to something | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
bordering on dictator -- a dictatorship, this surely has huge | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
obligations for Turkey's relations with America and the EU? And for the | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
fight with Islamic State. This goes from being a domestic event to one | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
with regional and geopolitical implications. And a Nato member. | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
It's funny, we talk about him all the time, but as your correspondent | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
said, this is a parliamentary republic, where traditionally the | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
president is simply a figurehead but because he is so dominant and has | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
total control of the HK party, all he had to do was switch from one job | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
to the next. And all the power went with him because of the atmosphere | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
at not because of the law. But he tried last year to move the powers | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
legally into his office. He is closing down the media, he is now | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
getting rid of the remnants in the Army that art not with him, and he | :09:24. | :09:33. | |
has the support of the mosques and parliament. It is becoming a | :09:34. | :09:42. | |
democratic dictatorship, a phrase I came up with for the loss of itch in | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
Serbia, you bring two new radio stations out that broadcast so | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
loudly that free speech is still allowed, but it cannot be heard. | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
Remember the Civil War was the Kurds? That will just be utterly | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
ruthless. This is a hugely historic event in Turkey's history because | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
previous army coups have won and he will now take out the army as an | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
independent force and it will become much more authoritarian, perhaps | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
even autocratic. Where does this leave Western relations with Turkey? | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
I think we can agree that it is not going to join the European Union any | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
time soon so we can scotch that one. I think the ultimate dilemma must be | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
for Nato. It is a security organisation but it is also an | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
organisation defined by certain values and practices and if | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
President Erdogan responds to the coup attempt by tightening freedoms | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
further, by intervening against the judiciary and the Armed Forces | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
further, then there must be a dilemma at some stage for Nato. I | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
thought it might have been telling that three or four hours, I don't | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
know if Tim agrees, for the US at least, if not Nato, to say anything | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
about the coup, when they did they did not mention President Erdogan by | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
name. I don't know if that suggests they know what side there bread is | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
buttered on and they were waiting to see if the coup would succeed. But | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
it is a huge event for the West and Turkey. The state was founded on | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
secular ideals. The Armed Forces have always been seen as an | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
invigilator of government. I am right in saying that the Turkish | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
president has never been commander-in-chief, officially, in | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
the way that a US president would be. Or a French president. Many | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
people think that what he wants to do is create an executive style | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
French presidency. You would still have a parliament and a Prime | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
Minister but it would be the president that matters, rather than | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
just being head of state. Turkey has been so pivotal, first of all in | :11:52. | :11:59. | |
dealing with the migrant crisis in the eastern Mediterranean, with the | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
situation in Syria, and Islamic State, and in the region as a | :12:03. | :12:12. | |
regional superpower that balances Iran and even Saudi Arabia. We don't | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
know where this is going to lead now. And has been talk for a long | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
time about how it is massively in the interest of the West to have a | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
stable Turkey. It has not been stable for some time and it will not | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
be, even if this coup was a somewhat silly, ill thought through coup, it | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
is clearly destabilising and will have consequences for a long time to | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
come. I would be interesting to -- I would be interested to hear from Tim | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
whether the EU has some leveraged because Turkey's desire to join it. | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
That dynamic, although clearly not the agenda in spite of the farcical | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
things said during the referendum campaign, that gives the EU some | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
leveraged in reshaping what happens in Turkey. You wonder if that is | :12:59. | :13:06. | |
even on his mind. It will not be. But the president has so many | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
domestic fish to fry, and that might not be a very good metaphor given | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
what he is about to do. If he is about to reintroduce the death | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
penalty, it becomes very difficult to talk about Turkey being part of | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
the EU. What do our diplomats do? It is in our interest to encourage the | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
dreamer but it does not look compatible with the way that things | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
are being carried out. Remarkably, these events in Gneiss had been | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
overshadowed by Turkey and yet it only happened on Thursday night and | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
this is Sunday morning. I suggest that the reaction in France to Nice | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
is going to be very different. Charlie Hebdo, the Bataclan, there | :13:47. | :13:54. | |
was great solidarity and it brought France together. I think this is | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
different because people have had enough and it is different because | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
there are clear security questions. No barrier on the promenade. We are | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
told that there was a barrier when the military parades took place but | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
it was removed after words, and already the politicians are ganging | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
up on the government and this is becoming a major pre-election issue. | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
That's right. The election is next year and Marine Le Pen is | :14:20. | :14:21. | |
positioning herself very strongly with the National Front. There is a | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
public divided on how to approach it and even if this is not Islamic | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
State, and I am not convinced that it is, it happens in the context of | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
Islamic State and of mass slaughter in the name of something. It is | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
another chip away at our freedoms. And that is, in itself, a success. | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
They are going to continue. I believe the rise of the right is far | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
from Peking. And it plays absolutely into next year's presidential | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
election. Going back from the presidential election, that all | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
comes into what the EU is going to look like. We are in a state of | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
flux. You are old enough, forgive me, Andrew, to know that everybody | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
always says it has never been as bad as now and it is always untrue. But | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
it is actually more corrugated than I have ever known it. And you may | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
agree. I do agree. The Conservatives completed | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
their leadership contest in a matter of days, | :15:22. | :15:22. | |
Labour's has barely begun. There are now two candidates | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
standing against Jeremy Corbyn - Angela Eagle and Owen Smith - | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
but the Labour Leader has told us that the rules which exclude | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
recently signed up members from voting in the contest | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
are unfair and he wants the party's national executive | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
to change them. Adam Fleming went for a walk | :15:36. | :15:37. | |
in the park with Mr Corbyn. This is the lake that was built | :15:38. | :15:44. | |
here in the 19th century, rather strange lake on the top | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
of the hill. I went for a stroll | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
round the Labour leader's favourite local beauty spot - | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
Finsbury Park in north London. Do you have time to take a casual | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
stroll with a journalist Yes, because doing things | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
in a relaxed way is important, and doing other things is important, | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
so going to a park, being in your However busy I am, my | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
allotment is tended. It's in good order, we had a good | :16:12. | :16:24. | |
crop of broad beans and we ate A slightly less relaxing | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
part of his week. At a meeting of Labour's national | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
executive on Tuesday, Jeremy Corbyn secured an automatic | :16:33. | :16:34. | |
place in the leadership election. But he's not happy with new rules | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
that say people who joined the party There's going to be some quite | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
intense discussions over the next few days, I suspect, | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
and I hope our party officials and National Executive will see | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
sense on this and recognise that those people who have freely | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
given their time and money to join the Labour Party should be welcomed | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
in and given the opportunity to take part in this crucial debate, | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
whichever way they decide to vote. I'm hoping there will be | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
an understanding that it is simply not very fair to say to people that | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
joined the party in the last six months, "sorry, your participation | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
is no longer welcome because we are having | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
a leadership contest." In the next few days, | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
various Labour factions will be racing to sign people up | :17:23. | :17:24. | |
as registered supporters, It costs ?25, not ?3 | :17:25. | :17:26. | |
like in the last contest. For people who can't afford the 25 | :17:27. | :17:35. | |
quid, what would you suggest If they can't afford the ?25, | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
what they do? It seems to me the ?25 bar is quite | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
high and not really reasonable. A lot of people have said to me, | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
people stop me in the street saying, "I would love to vote in this | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
election but I can't afford ?25." He is also disappointed that | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
virtually all local party meetings have been suspended over | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
fears of intimidation. I haven't stopped party meetings | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
taking place and I actually I think party meetings | :18:06. | :18:07. | |
should take place. Intimidation of any sort by anybody | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
is absolutely wrong, but to cancel meetings | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
because of the perception that intimidation might take place | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
I think is a big mistake. The issues appear to be that | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
where meetings have taken place, far more people have attended | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
than were expected and so there has been issues about how people | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
can get in the room, whereas there's a fairly | :18:32. | :18:33. | |
simple answer to that - Talking of meetings, | :18:34. | :18:35. | |
who was he with when Theresa May was taking over as Prime Minister | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
earlier this week? I was with an all-party group, | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
including Conservatives, talking to two of the Miami five | :18:48. | :18:49. | |
who had been in prison in Miami and were released | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
by the court decisions of USA and the new rapprochement with Cuba | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
and actually welcoming the fact there had been an agreement | :18:56. | :18:57. | |
reached in Cuba. I was actually with Conservatives | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
and Labour people. I was there for about 20 minutes, | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
then I went back to my office And so you felt that was a good use | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
of your time at that point when the country was transitioning | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
from one Prime Minister to another? Informing yourself by listening | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
to people from all kinds of walks This morning I was on the phone | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
to friends in Istanbul and Ankara And so when an issue happens | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
anywhere in the world, obviously I read all the briefings | :19:31. | :19:38. | |
that I've been given, obviously I follow the news | :19:39. | :19:40. | |
and information, but also I quite often know people in different | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
places around the world so I call Can I get a hug | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
for that? He also seems to know a lot | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
of people in this park. What do you think about | :19:52. | :20:00. | |
Angela Eagle and Owen Smith I have been trying to unregister | :20:01. | :20:02. | |
from the Green Party so that I can register with the Labour Party | :20:03. | :20:16. | |
so that I can support you. We were walking round | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
with Jeremy Corbyn, What did you shout | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
out when you saw him? I don't know what I said, | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
something awful like... Something like "you've | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
ruined the Labour Party". Something like, "step aside and stop | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
ruining the Labour Party," I guess. And I couldn't let Jeremy go | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
without introducing him to the craze sweeping the nation, | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
Pokemon Go. He didn't seem that bothered | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
but then he's playing a much bigger game, trying to hold onto his job, | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
and that's no walk in the park. Our work this morning has not | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
been in vain. And a longer version of that | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
interview with Jeremy Corbyn We're joined now from Salford | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
though by the Shadow Education Secretary, | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
Angela Rayner. Welcome to the programme. Jeremy | :21:05. | :21:16. | |
Corbyn wants to allow people who joined in the last six months of | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
your party to vote, he thinks the ?25 fee is too high. Isn't it just | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
typical of the chaos Labour is now in that you are holding a leadership | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
contest before you have agreed rules? Good morning, I think it's | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
important we recognise the Labour Party is transformed with now over | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
half a million members joined, which is fantastic. We are the largest | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
democratic social party across Europe. For me it is about | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
democracy. I asked about the rules, should you be having a contest | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
before you have agreed rules? The rules were decided at the NEC | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
meeting which lasted seven hours, quite a lengthy marathon... You want | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
to change them? People need to reflect upon the current situation | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
and there has been outrage. 130,000 people have joined since the | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
referendum, and we have got to give them the opportunity to have their | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
voice heard. Have these 130,000 that joined after the referendum been | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
properly vetted? That is a situation that the NEC and our party has got | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
to approve and go through. We did it last time, we had a huge number of | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
people join our party recently. Have that number been vetted or not? You | :22:38. | :22:47. | |
have got to allow democracy. What we do is we ensure we get more people, | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
more staff, more ability to deal with that issue because democracy is | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
important, it is enshrined. Hold on, you are starting the leadership | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
campaign and you still haven't vetted those who may be allowed to | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
vote, that's what I mean by chaos, if not fast. I don't think it's | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
chaotic to have over half a million people join our party and want to | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
have a say, it is a positive step. It is if you cannot vet them come | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
you don't know if they are members of the Socialist workers party, the | :23:22. | :23:23. | |
Greens, the Communists, the National front, the Conservatives. You have | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
no idea. We have 130,000 people who have joined in the last three weeks, | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
which the Conservative Party have around 150,000 members per se. We | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
have over half a million members so we are doing a great job. The | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
Trotskyists and other groups you are suggesting may be trying to join our | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
party, they are not in the great numbers we see at the moment. It is | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
important to give people a say about the future of our country and party. | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
I love democracy. Will you definitely be voting for Mr Corbyn | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
this time because you didn't last time. No, I supported Andy Burnham | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
last time, but I recognise Jeremy Corbyn had a significant mandate to | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
lead our party. I don't think it's time to have a leadership contest. I | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
will not be nominating another candidate, I will be recognising our | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
democratically elected leader. I asked who you will be voting for. I | :24:24. | :24:33. | |
will be supporting -- our democratically elected leader. Can | :24:34. | :24:42. | |
you say the words, I will vote for Jeremy Corbyn? I have made it clear | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
what my position is, and that's about democracy and our members | :24:49. | :24:56. | |
making... Are you or aren't you? I have told you I will be supporting | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
our democratically elected leader of our party. I want to hold the | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
Government to account, we have a bill coming up on Tuesday... I'm | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
puzzled, are you voting for Mr Corbyn? Your viewers want to see us | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
holding this Government to account. I have tried to answer your question | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
but you don't want to listen to my answer. Could you name the person | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
you will be voting for in this election? I will be listening to our | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
membership and in the meantime holding the Government to account | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
and supporting our democratically elected leader of our party, which | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
is Jeremy Corbyn. A new poll shows Theresa May leads Jeremy Corbyn 58% | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
to 19, on who would make the better Prime Minister. It shows 40% of | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
Labour voters think Theresa May would make a better Prime Minister. | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
Why are you backing, if you are, I'm still not clear, why are you backing | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
a loser? Our party is seen as quite divided and divided parties never | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
win elections. We don't disagree on policy points, we have to get our | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
policy points across to the electorate and then they will | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
decide. Theresa May has the challenge of bringing her | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
Conservative Party together. There was no competition, no democracy | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
within the Conservative Party in terms of who they wanted as leader. | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
She has a job to do because the country has never been more divided | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
than it is now and that's directly as a result of the Conservatives. | :26:34. | :26:42. | |
You all seem to have a job to do. Speaking of Mrs May, is the Labour | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
Party now the nasty party? No, Theresa May had it right, the | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
Conservatives continue to be so. They are cutting education funding | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
by up to 8% in this Parliament, they want to prioritise the NHS and have | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
already been creeping that in. They are not on the side of ordinary | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
people in this country. Theresa May has said she wants the Conservatives | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
to be a party for everybody and working people across the country. | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
Now her words have to be matched by actions. Let me ask you this about | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
Labour. Meetings of constituency Labour parties have been suspended | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
from fear of intimidation. There are death threats and violence, a brick | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
thrown through the window of the office block where Angela Eagle's | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
constituency is housed. Police have had to investigate. I ask again, is | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
it not Labour that is the nasty party? I think any act of abuse and | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
intimidation is disgusting in politics and many politicians from | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
all sides of the house have had death threats and threats of | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
violence, and that has got to be stamped out of a modern democracy. | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
Why is it in the Labour Party this is happening? It happens across the | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
spectrum in politics and it is disgusting. But it cannot stop | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
democracy either, we have got to continue to uphold and enshrined our | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
democracy in everything we do because it is important. It means a | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
lot to a lot of people but you cannot win on democracy by abusing, | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
threatening and intimidating the other side of the argument. You have | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
got to have a constructive debate and people have got to have their | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
democratic right to vote. Thanks for being with us this morning. | :28:33. | :28:34. | |
Now, despite signing up to David Cameron's Remain strategy, | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
our new Prime Minister has put navigating the UK's departure | :28:38. | :28:39. | |
from the EU and retaining the union at the centre | :28:40. | :28:41. | |
We're joined now by the Conservative MP and former attorney-general | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
The appointment of three key Cabinet positions to Brexiteers - Boris | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
Johnson, David Davis, and Liam Fox - reflects this. | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
A few days before his appointment, the Brexit Secretary set | :28:51. | :28:52. | |
out how he'd proceed with separation from the EU. | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
He said triggering new trade talks were a | :28:58. | :28:59. | |
priority and wanted the UK to negotiate free-trade deals with | :29:00. | :29:01. | |
Mr Davis believes the UK should not budge on control of our borders, but | :29:02. | :29:09. | |
the tariff-free access to the EU single market is still his preferred | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
The Brexit Secretary acknowledged that talks with the | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Ireland governments | :29:19. | :29:20. | |
And Theresa May made the first step on Thursday, telling | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
Nicola Sturgeon in Edinburgh that she is willing to listen | :29:26. | :29:27. | |
to options on Scotland's future relationship | :29:28. | :29:29. | |
Mrs May said Britain would not rush into | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
Brexit negotiations and would need some time to prepare. | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
However, Mr Davis said Article 50 should be | :29:38. | :29:39. | |
and mean Britain would be out of the EU by January | :29:40. | :29:48. | |
We're joined now by the Conservative MP and former attorney-general | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
Dominic Grieve, who campaigned for Remain, and the Labour MP | :29:56. | :29:57. | |
who chaired the Vote Leave campaign, Gisela Stewart. | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
We are joined by Dominic Grieve and the chairman of the boat Leave | :30:01. | :30:10. | |
campaign, Gisela Stuart. -- Vote Leave. As Theresa May delivered? I | :30:11. | :30:19. | |
think she has. I think it was important that you made clear that | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
Brexit meant Brexit. We had to make a clear that there was no second | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
referendum in the offering. That required certainty for the country. | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
Are you satisfied with that? I am completely satisfied with her | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
approach, yes. It is clear that the vote, as expressed in the | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
referendum, has to be respected. We have to take forward a programme for | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
removing the United Kingdom from the EU. Really that is going to be an | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
immensely comported process and it also carries with it economic risks, | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
certainly in the short to medium term. I am also open-minded as to | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
how one best does that. I think we're going to have to respond to | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
events as well as trying to shape them. We have seen a blueprint | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
published by my friend and colleague, David Davis, about | :31:09. | :31:16. | |
Britain's outside the EU. I expect that 99.9% of conservatives would | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
subscribe to that but getting to it is more congregated. We need to | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
unpick this bit by bit. When do we trigger article 50? You need to go | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
in reverse, like a reverse accession process. The most important thing is | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
trade negotiations. As I understand that you cannot have a bilateral | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
agreement unless you have notified Article 50. But you must have some | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
idea of the time? The sooner the better. When do you think we should | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
trigger article 50. I think we should trigger at when there is some | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
clarity as to what the scope of the negotiations that will follow will | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
be. This is the first big hurdle. Clearly if our European partners do | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
not want to negotiate with us at all, even informally, prior to | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
triggering Article 50, that might presents difficulties but from the | :32:14. | :32:15. | |
point of view of the Prime Minister, she will make up her own mind. | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
Actually getting some clear idea of what it is that the United Kingdom | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
is seeking in terms of a future relationship is going to very | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
important. And I think it is impossible to give a particular time | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
frame. But I agree with Gisela Stuart. But the time frame has to | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
work and it has to be done in good time for the 2020 election, so you | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
can work back from that. I think you can, but I think that she needs, the | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
Prime Minister needs to be given maximum flexibility about this | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
because boxing herself in to how she goes about what is going to be one | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
of the most difficult political transformations this country has | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
gone through in modern times, I think that requires pragmatism. Does | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
it require a vote of Parliament to trigger Article 50? Not necessarily. | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
Let's come back to something. This is not just about our relationship | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
with the EU, it is our relationship with the rest of the world. | :33:11. | :33:19. | |
Triggering Article 50 has also been interpreted into how we talk with | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
other countries. But we can talk with them without concluding deals? | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
But in terms of negotiations, there comes a point that to make it | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
meaningful, you have to trigger it. But I want to ask you, do we need a | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
vote in parliament to trigger Article 50? Undoubtedly. It is a | :33:37. | :33:44. | |
matter of convention. The idea that a government could take a decision | :33:45. | :33:46. | |
of such massive importance to the United Kingdom without Parliamentary | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
approval, it seems to me to be extremely far-fetched. It is not | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
about law. It is about convention and reality. Do you agree? I can see | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
the arguments from both sides but I don't think you absolutely have to | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
do it. We have not got a lot of time, would you vote for triggering | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
Article 50? Yes. I have made it quite clear that the result of the | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
referendum must mean that we have to be willing to embark on the process. | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
I put in one rider to that which is that it seems to me that any | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
sensible decision has to be made at the time you make it. But that is | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
not a suggestion that I am going to suddenly decide not to support | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
triggering Article 50, but triggering Article 50 is an | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
important political step to withdraw from the EU. One has to keep that in | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
mind. Do you worry that people like Dominic Grieve are teeing themselves | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
up to call for a second referendum on the nature of the deal we will | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
do? I do. I think if there is one thing the European Union is very | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
good at, it is that when political necessity is in the interest of both | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
sides, they are capable of rewriting the rules. So the European Union | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
itself has to look at the problems it faces, and then at what the best | :35:03. | :35:09. | |
deal is. There is a danger that those who do not like the outcome of | :35:10. | :35:11. | |
the referendum get themselves hooked on Article 50, rather than saying | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
that there is a new reality out there and we need to deal with that | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
in the interests of the United Kingdom. If you could bring it | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
about, you would have a second referendum, wouldn't you? Not | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
necessarily. The justification for having a second referendum is if the | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
circumstances that prevail at the time and justify it because there is | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
some legitimate question to put to the electorate. I am very wary of | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
circumscribing oneself. The referendum is no different from the | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
general election in this sense. It is a statement at the time of what | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
people want in terms of the way policy is taken forward. If people's | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
opinions change, it would be extraordinary. And I think the only | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
way you can judge that is by looking and listening to what people are | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
saying to you. Opinion polls can measure it. Like the opinion polls | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
that told you your site was going to win the referendum? I am not sure I | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
ever believe those polls. But they did. If you take a decision on the | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
base of those polls... But what is the question that one might be | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
asking. What the public have asked us to do is quite clear. They have | :36:25. | :36:34. | |
given, by a majority of 1.2 million people, not insubstantial, they have | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
said they want a fundamental change to the UK's relationship with the EU | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
and they see that relationship as being one where we are outside of | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
it. I have to respect that. And we have not got much time so I am going | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
to interrupt. You have had a good save. Gisela Stuart, here is the | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
point. There is a lot of people on the Labour side listening to Dominic | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
Grieve and nodding their heads. Owen Smith, one of the leadership | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
contenders, he basically wants a second referendum, and you are going | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
to have to start gearing up for that. Do you fear that this could be | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
foisted upon you? I think it would be a disastrous step because both | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
political parties need to search why they were so out of step with the | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
electorate, particularly the Labour Party. It is a Parliamentary | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
democracy were we get elected to do a job and that is to either hold the | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
government to account or to be the government. We have asked them and | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
they have reflected, in large numbers, they have said that we want | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
to leave. And they expect us to get on with the job. I am sorry to rush | :37:36. | :37:37. | |
you but we have been short of time. It's just gone 11.35, | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers | :37:41. | :37:42. | |
in Scotland and Wales, who leave us Hello and welcome to the last | :37:43. | :37:51. | |
Sunday Politics Wales Owen Smith sets out his stall | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
as he makes his bid And Elin Jones on her baptism | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
of fire as the new Llywydd. My guests, Liz Silversmith | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
and Nick Ramsay, will be here to discuss that and everything | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
else that's happened in yet another massive political week, | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
during which, by the way, But first, spare a thought | :38:11. | :38:12. | |
for Carwyn Jones. Returned as First Minister, | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
back in May he must have thought Now he's looking at a potential | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
split in his party, a new Prime Minister in Westminster | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
and Wales being sidelined in Europe. When I met up with him in his | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
constituency office in Bridgend, I began by asking him | :38:30. | :38:31. | |
about what his government was doing to make Wales' voice | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
heard in Brussels. We have an office | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
in Brussels anyway. What I have looked to do | :38:40. | :38:41. | |
is to strengthen the office to make sure we have the right people | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
there who can form part of any future negotiation | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
with the European Union. We do that in parallel to the UK | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
negotiations, it's not meant to be a separate process, | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
but we need to make sure that You will note that Mark Drakeford, | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
your finance secretary has sent a letter to the European Commission | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
following their failure to turn up to a meeting - | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
a regular, scheduled meeting about European funds | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
and their allocation in Wales. He speaks of a concern | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
of being frozen out Is that the sense you're | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
getting at the moment? There's no doubt that the Commission | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
has decided that it is not going to play a part in those | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
meetings from now on. I think we're in a period, | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
at the moment, of two sides The UK has said that it | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
won't trigger Article 50 until there The EU said there will not be any | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
informal negotiations At the moment, we are at an impasse | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
and, over the next few weeks, Is it a concern that the European | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
Commission aren't turning I mean, this is money | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
which will be there until 2020. Do you have a sense as to why | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
they're not actually engaging, perhaps, with the Welsh Government | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
on already scheduled meetings? Clearly, the Commission have said, | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
"From now on and don't play "Even in business | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
that affects the EU." I can't explain the reasoning | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
for that but that seems to be Mark Drakeford says, | :40:09. | :40:10. | |
in his letter, that it is, "Of concern to stakeholders and | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
partners, with whom we are working." They're difficult enough times | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
for those people anyway, whereas if the European Commission | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
stars to come out saying, "We're not talking to you at | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
the moment," that makes it even What's really odd about it is | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
that this is European money and we have the Commission saying, | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
"We're not going to be involved in monitoring how | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
the money is spent." It is very difficult for us but it | :40:37. | :40:38. | |
just seems like a strange position for the Commission to adopt | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
at this stage. Are you concerned this is how | :40:42. | :40:43. | |
it is going to be from now on or do you think that this might resolve | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
itself, given a bit of time? I've long given up trying to predict | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
what is going to happen. This is so new that nobody knows | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
what will happen next. Nobody knows when Article 50 will be | :40:54. | :40:55. | |
triggered to startthe process This is the absolutely crucial bit - | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
nobody knows what the trade deal For me, the absolute red line | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
is that Welsh businesses must have free access | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
to the European single market. It will be very difficult for us | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
to attract investments if we have to say to investors, | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
"If we are to sell to the market in Europe, there will be a 5% | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
tariff or a 10% tariff." Having that free access | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
is absolutely vital for us. I want to come on in a moment | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
to talk about Theresa May, our new Prime Minister | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
and the relationship there. One of the things she has done | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
is put David Davis in charge of the Brexit negotiations, | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
the Secretary of State Have you had any discussions | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
with him? How do you think he will work | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
in collaboration with her? What it is that worries me | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
is that he seems not to be worried about having to operate under WTO | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
rules were tariffs are in place. In fact, he seems to argue | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
they are a good thing. If you have tariffs on goods | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
entering in the UK, that might mean ?2 billion extra | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
for the UK Government. This is a tax that people, | :42:04. | :42:05. | |
individuals, will pay. At the end of the day, | :42:06. | :42:07. | |
it means an extra tax for British citizens when they buy things, | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
it goes straight to This is not an advantage as far | :42:14. | :42:15. | |
as people are concerned. That struck me as worrying | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
that he did not see the importance of the single market and operating | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
in a situation where, for example, if we can export steel into the EU, | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
there would be a tariff If Welsh farmers want to export lamb | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
to the European We have to do everything we can | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
to avoid that scenario occurring. Do you think it would make sense | :42:34. | :42:41. | |
for the Welsh Government to have its own Brexit Minister | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
who does nothing else but talk with David Davies, | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
think about these trade But you have an awful lot | :42:48. | :42:49. | |
of other things to do. There can't be | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
a minister from Brexit. I have a limited number | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
of ministers I can appoint, The reality is that we can do this | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
anyway, with working... Not just me, but the Cabinet | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
and other parties as well. We had discussions with Plaid Cymru | :43:09. | :43:10. | |
on this issue. We do need a team in Brussels, | :43:11. | :43:12. | |
that's being set up. That is one of the | :43:13. | :43:20. | |
first things I did after the referendum was say, | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
"We need people in place of experience, political issue | :43:25. | :43:26. | |
into over Brussels to advise us on what doors might be | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
possible to open. Because people have | :43:30. | :43:31. | |
voted to leave the EU. Even though the Welsh people | :43:32. | :43:33. | |
voted to leave the EU, And our job is to make sure | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
that we acknowledge their decision, don't try to overturn it, | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
but also make sure that they are not One of the other big issues, | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
I guess, facing the UK Which at the moment does not | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
hinder the operating Do you have concerns, for example, | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
when you see the Wales Government in Parliament last week | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
and practically not a single Welsh Labour MP was therefore that | :44:01. | :44:02. | |
very important discussion, because they are embroiled in this | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
civil war, edging to the? How much of a concern is that | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
when you see that? If I sat here and told you that | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
I think things are fine, We are in a very different position | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
as a party. I said some weeks ago | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
that we do have a contest. It looks as if we're going to get | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
that in order to resolve this issue but you're not in any state to fight | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
an election at the moment. So, we need to get this resolved | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
and get ourselves united, and effective for the people | :44:34. | :44:35. | |
who look to us for leadership. Would you welcome seeing | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
a Welsh Labour MP leading the party? I've always said in years gone by, | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
and I'll be doing the same this time arrived, that I never actually | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
declare an favour of a candidate It's not me who support somebody | :44:47. | :44:48. | |
as a candidate to be a party I've always kept my counsel in terms | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
of supporting anybody. We've had a very busy period | :44:55. | :45:05. | |
of a couple of months, do you anticipate or perhaps hope | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
for a slightly calmer Normally, after an election, | :45:09. | :45:10. | |
things quite and down for a while. If you'd have said to me a few | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
months ago that Boris Johnson with the Foreign Secretary, | :45:16. | :45:32. | |
I'd have been stunned The world is in such a unusual | :45:33. | :45:34. | |
place at the moment, Britons and a very unusual place, | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
that it is difficult to make any What I do know is that there | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
are so many people in Wales and in Britain who need to make sure | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
that they feel they are represented by a party that looks | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
after their needs, and we should Carwyn Jones outlining the | :45:52. | :45:53. | |
challenges. Could Labour go for another | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
Welshman as its leader? Later today Owen Smith | :45:59. | :46:00. | |
will launch his bid. The Pontypridd MP left | :46:01. | :46:02. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet during the mass resignations | :46:03. | :46:04. | |
which followed the Brexit vote. Away from the Westminster bubble, | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
Cemlyn Davies has been to Mr Smith's political back yard, | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
to see how the prospect of a local boy with national dreams | :46:10. | :46:11. | |
has gone down there. This time straddles the river Taff, | :46:12. | :46:27. | |
its famous bridge uniting East and West, right and left. The town's MP | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
think he can do the same for a deeply divided party. Owen Smith | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
hopes to replace Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader, and he does have the | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
support of many local party members who believe he can do what Jeremy | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
Corbyn cannot. What Owen possesses that Jeremy does not is leadership | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
skills. I think you need that to unify the party, both wings, and we | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
need a win to uniform all of it. He is part of the moderate left. Many | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
of the policies currently espoused by the Labour Party, he is part of | :47:00. | :47:07. | |
the development of. So if we have Owen Smith is our leader, we will | :47:08. | :47:10. | |
have somebody who is very credible in government, but we will also have | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
someone who will take the party in the direction that clearly many | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
people, especially the people of Pontypridd, want us to go in. But of | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
course Jeremy Corbyn has an army of loyal and passionate supporters who | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
believe their elected leader has been unfairly treated and should be | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
allowed to carry on with his work. I met up with two of them in | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
Pontypridd. He has done a lot of good things in a short period of | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
time, and with opposition from his own party memories, so given the | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
right team and a team attitude he might be able to achieve a lot. He | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
has not been given that opportunity. Do you think that Jeremy Corbyn can | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
realistically win a general election as Labour Leader? I think in time he | :47:55. | :48:02. | |
can. In time. I think in time he can. Jeremy Corbyn has always stayed | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
true to his principle, he has always fought for social equality, he has | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
been the only prominent member of Parliament that has actually fought | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
against austerity. Owen Smith is coming up with anti-austerity, and | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
so is Angela Eagle, just copying him. With Owen Smith now hoping to | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
be Labour Leader, this constituency and town finds itself reflecting the | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
deep division within the party nationally. Between those who still | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
firmly support Jeremy Corbyn's entrenched left-wing views, and | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
those who believe he must be replaced by a more moderate | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
politician if Labour is to have any chance of regaining power. That | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
division may extend to Owen Smith's own constituency office, an office | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
he shares with his assembly counterparts and long-time Corbin | :48:55. | :49:03. | |
supporter. He said he will not be commenting on any of the candidates | :49:04. | :49:05. | |
in this leadership election, but last month, anticipating a contest, | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
he said he would be supporting the current leader. 35 years ago, | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
similar tensions within Labour led to the formation of a new political | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
party. I cannot any longer conceive of my acute concern about some of | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
the developments in the Labour Party which will not enhance the prospects | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
of the Labour Party and also affect the long-term unity of the Labour | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
movement. This man was the Labour MP when he wrote this letter to local | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
party members in 1974. A few years later, concerned Labour was drifting | :49:39. | :49:46. | |
too far to the left, he set up the social Democratic party along with | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
others. How does this current crisis compare? This is bigger. First of | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
all, there is a mass movement which Jeremy Corbyn leads, which is | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
saying, this is how we want the party run. And there is a | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
parliamentary party, strong, vast majority of them, think in a | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
different way. That was not how it was in the 1970s. As social | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
Democrats and rebels were in a very small minority. So is another split | :50:20. | :50:28. | |
on a much greater scale inevitable? The Labour Party is in dire trouble, | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
in dire trouble of splitting. Whether it will split in the next | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
nine months or so, I am not so sure. But they are on that road. I think a | :50:38. | :50:46. | |
real risk. Totally. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn wants that to happen, | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
I do not think that he will have brought it, he did not bring a coup | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
against himself, did he? I don't think there is a danger of the party | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
spitting but it is a possible that interfere and we have to do | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
everything we can to stop that from happening. -- a possibility and a | :51:02. | :51:09. | |
fear. William Edwards took for attempts to build this bridge -- | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
four. As for uniting the Labour Party, or that the bridge too far? | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
-- could that be a bridge too far? Well, when my colleague | :51:19. | :51:20. | |
James Williams caught up with Owen Smith, he began | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
by asking him whether he was making party divisions worse | :51:25. | :51:26. | |
by challenging Jeremy Corbyn. No. Because the four I decided to | :51:27. | :51:41. | |
challenge Jeremy Corbyn, a members had voted no confidence in him. His | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
entire Shadow Cabinet had resided. -- 172. -- resigned. The question is | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
now hard to heal that divide and I spent ten days trying to talk to | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
journey, 121, with his team about how I could help frame some sort of | :52:00. | :52:09. | |
deal or compromise to bring the party together. -- one-two-one. In a | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
united and powerful fashion that we need to. He was not prepared to | :52:13. | :52:15. | |
accept any of those compromises. At that point I felt, | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
as Angela Eagle felt, that the only way to try and bring | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
the Labour Party together and make it not only a powerful opposition | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
but a radical, credible government in waiting, | :52:29. | :52:30. | |
was to challenge Jeremy and seek to, in my case, put the stamp | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
of a new generation of Labour men Do you think Jeremy Corbyn's support | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
within the Labour Party I don't quite know what you mean | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
by that, I think Jeremy Corbyn got elected with a very large | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
mandate in the membership. But the Labour Party is a coalition, | :52:48. | :52:49. | |
it is a coalition of the trade unions, members of the Labour Party, | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
the socialist societies, affiliated societies, | :52:54. | :52:55. | |
and the Parliamentary Labour Party, and if you are the Labour Party | :52:56. | :53:03. | |
leader, you have got be able to command respect | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
and support and be a leader in all of those different parts | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
of the party, and what is evident is that Jeremy is not someone who, | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
as a leader, can command the support and trust and faith | :53:14. | :53:15. | |
of the Parliamentary Labour Party. And that is enormously important | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
because Labour was created by the trade union movement to be | :53:20. | :53:21. | |
representation in Parliament. The route to socialism | :53:22. | :53:32. | |
we want to pursue is the Parliamentary route, | :53:33. | :53:34. | |
and therefore you have got to be able to be a credible, | :53:35. | :53:36. | |
active, powerful opposition to the Government of the day, | :53:37. | :53:38. | |
and you have got to stand ready to be the next Government, | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
a credible Government that Many of us feel that under Jeremy, | :53:45. | :53:46. | |
the Labour Party is not in a position to win back people's | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
trust, it doesn't look like a credible opposition, | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
certainly does not look Here we are teetering on the brink | :53:54. | :53:55. | |
of another recession, six years into a Tory Government | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
that has destroyed livelihoods of many people across this country | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
with completely self-defeating austerity, and Labour looks a long, | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
long way from power, and that is not something working | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
people can afford. I mean it any sense that is not a | :54:12. | :54:20. | |
danger whether you or Angela Eagle wind that Jeremy Corbyn's supporters | :54:21. | :54:30. | |
could split from the party? If he winds, that that mean that part of | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
your party will split? How far with that. I think some people on the far | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
left of the Labour Party will sit in a position and see that there is an | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
extra parliamentary route to socialism, the street, if you like. | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
They may feel that Parliament is less important in place as a | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
crucible for debate and for making our socialist values and policy and | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
practice. But it left and right they are engaging in this battle they | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
unfortunately become a bit fatalistic and limbs of the prospect | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
of a split. I am a better light on this, as with a lot of issues. | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
Romney, it is the Labour Party are nothing but a really great as | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
vehicle for social movement and we're one of the great British | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
institution that has bound people together for a century. It would be | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
a catastrophic split any Labour Party and a catastrophe for working | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
people if they were not to stand up for them. -- we were not to stand | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
up. Unfortunately, there is a far right movement in this country on | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
the rise and we need to stand together and unite, but crucially | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
have a Government in waiting. You think that only be one challenges to | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's there is a widespread view in the Labour Party | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
that it would be preferable. Do you think so? Yes, I think we need to | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
find a way at which we get to that. It's not for me to determine that. I | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
am one of the challenges and IM happy to submit myself to what ever | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
decision-making process is derived at by the party or indeed by anyone. | :56:16. | :56:23. | |
What is decided, I will support that and I will make my case any positive | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
fashion and elderly people will be interested in what I have got to say | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
and TV that I am someone who can unite the party and resided present | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
for us. Both the radicalism of Jeremy Corbyn but with a pragmatic, | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
credible edge that people will see that this is not just a bunch of | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
slogans, these are a set of policies that Labour can deliver and then we | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
will deliver real meaningful change for people's lies. Anti-austerities | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
a great slogan but you have to say how you can tune into prosperity for | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
people with hard-headed policy. The backrest and nine. Would you be | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
willing, if you are not the Challenger two Jeremy Corbyn, to | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
pull out of the race? -- with that question in mind. Likewise, would | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
you expect other candidates to pull out? We will cross that bridge when | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
we get to it. There are only three candidates. I think we need to wait | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
and see what the view of the Parliamentary Labour Party is. That | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
is their job. That is the job of MPs at this stage. They have to decide | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
who is the best candidate and whether they like? Who do they think | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
is best placed to lead our party? I will put my trust in my colleagues | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
to make a decision. Whatever they decide, I will abide by it. I am | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
here to serve the Labour Party but I am also come in this moment trying | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
to save the Labour Party because, if someone does not stand up and say, | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
he was how we stand up and unite, he was a programme we can get behind in | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
Parliament, in the country, we will not succeed. You seem to agree with | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's policies that they agree with the content | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
that you say you are a better package. I do agree with a lot of | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
things that Jeremy Corbyn is. I served because, not just buy within | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
the Labour Party, but because I thought Jeremy articulated what me | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
and a lot of others feel that we became acute unit in it to | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
managerial list. Austerity is completely self defeatist. Anyone, | :58:30. | :58:38. | |
in the mix or economics, will tell you can cut your growth in a | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
business. That he was articulate by Jackie go beyond it. You have to say | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
how you will do this, what are the policies and we have do go from | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
protesting against austerity saying how we deliver prosperity. I can do | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
that. In doing that, I can appeal to a broad is we -- sweep of the | :59:00. | :59:07. | |
British public. We have got to appeal and build a coalition in the | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
country. We have always got to appeal to people. We cannot think of | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
people in terms of class. I think I have the skills and ideas to do | :59:20. | :59:20. | |
that. Thank you very much. Plenty to chew over with my guests | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
then, the political analyst Liz Silversmith and the | :59:25. | :59:26. | |
Conservative AM Nick Ramsay. Thank you both very much coming in | :59:27. | :59:36. | |
this morning. You spent most of your time looking and analysing political | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
parties. Let's just pick up where the Labour Party is at the moment. | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
What they make of what is going on there? I just think about how it was | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
12 months ago when Harriet Harman was the acting leader and a bachelor | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
that go with tax credits that votes are not. Ideally, it has changed so | :59:52. | :00:02. | |
much. You can see the Alan Smith -- Owen. His first thing was to say it | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
is a political choice, not an economic ties. We have seen the | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
repercussions of a lot of change in the party. Is there an element here | :00:10. | :00:19. | |
of Angela Eagle and Owen Smith barring quite heavily from Jeremy | :00:20. | :00:29. | |
Corbyn's policies -- boring? -- borrowing? Do they realise that they | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
have to copy Jeremy Corbyn to beat him? They realise his policies are | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
quite popular. There is a reason people are joining Labour. Whatever | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
the ball is, it is not to do with the actual policies. It is quite a | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
change to what it is in your last 12 months. They are moderate, slightly | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
left and moderate and then not quite so left. There is a lot of boxes for | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
people to fit in. I was going to say put your party views to one side but | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
that is not possible, how do you view it from another side? Harold | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
Wilson once said that a week is a long time in politics and that has | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
never been more true. Politically, I suppose, for my party, for the | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
Conservatives, we are not going to worry if the opposition party is in | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
turmoil. You could say that makes it easier for us to get on with what | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
you're doing however, I do think that in a democracy, gave -- you | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
need a viable opposition and at the moment, that is not Labour. They | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
need to look very closely at who they choose so that the country does | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
have a choice in the future. And what do you think? Is any chance... | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
I know Theresa May has ruled out but do you think she might be tempted | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
for a general election in the autumn? It's a very similar problem | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
to Gordon Brown. If you call that now, she will win. If you call it | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
early, no one will be prepared. The Conservatives are the only ones who | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
can afford an election at the moment. The thing is, with assembly | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
elections and another referendum, and the general election, the | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
parties have no money. Labour spent ?5 million in the referendum | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
campaign. She could call it but I doubt it. Speaking of money, we were | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
hearing from Carwyn Jones about the concerns he has with Mark Drake said | :02:30. | :02:40. | |
-- Drakeford. They are saying the EU officials will not talk to them. How | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
much of a concern is that? If it is the case, it is concerning. We are | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
still in the early days. Article 50 has not been invoked yet. Let's see | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
how this pans out. I know certainly that the new Prime Minister has said | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
she wants Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to be very active | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
in the discussions. I would love that bewilderment would be as | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
involved as possible. They need to be. I'm sure Carwyn Jones would | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
agree that if he was here. You've got a lot of public bodies that you | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
work with, European brands and so on. It must be very unsettling for | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
them anyway, especially now with European Commission and the | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
officials there starting to say that we are not going to be engaged with | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
the Welsh Government. -- grants. Yes, we have also heard before the | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
referendum and during, Wales was in that beneficiary fund and a lot of | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
it relies on EU funding. I'll Wales has got its own unique concerns and | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
issues that it wants to race. It will have to have a really strong | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
relationship with the Brexit team in the UK Government to be heard, | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
otherwise it will get washed out. We cannot afford to get this wrong. We | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
are heavily reliant on these funds as we need to know that there will | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
be more money coming to us, we know it will through the Barnett formula | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
but we have to get this right. How much pressure of the thinkers on the | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
UK Government and the likes of David Davis who have said that Wells will | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
not lose out financially? -- Liam Fox. I have confidence that Theresa | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
May is the person to lead as any discussions. We have a third rate | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
Prime Minister at the right point but never have we needed a unified | :04:27. | :04:38. | |
Government. -- a first rate. We cannot afford to get this wrong. The | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
Welsh economy is too important. Thank you very much but we will move | :04:43. | :04:43. | |
on for now. She's been an AM since the Assembly | :04:44. | :04:45. | |
started, a minister too. Now Elin Jones has landed in the big | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
chair, as Llywydd, the referee And she's had to draw | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
on all her experience to deal with, shall we say, a series | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
of challenging incidents When I spoke to her in the chamber, | :04:55. | :04:56. | |
I began by asking whether the past few weeks had been livelier | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
than she'd expected? I'm pleased to have been elected | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
as the Presiding Officer, the Llywydd, for the National | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
Assembly. I want there to be lively debate | :05:10. | :05:10. | |
in this chamber that reflects the priorities and interests | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
of people in Wales. We have one new party, | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
for the first time, elected They have views that may be | :05:17. | :05:18. | |
quite different to some of the political views held by other | :05:19. | :05:27. | |
political parties here. All those views have to be heard | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
and that political challenge As long as everything is in order, | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
I will allow that debate to happen because people in Wales voted | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
in a variety of different ways in May and all those voices need | :05:39. | :05:40. | |
to be heard and reflected in this I guess, in terms of those | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
discussions central to this place over the next few years, | :05:44. | :05:53. | |
nothing will be more important than those discussions over leaving | :05:54. | :05:55. | |
the European Union - thousands of pieces of legislation | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
need to be unpicked - How central will that be to this | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
place over the next few years? Well, there is a danger that it can | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
dominate, completely, the work of this place | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
because it is such a huge There is a danger, isn't there, | :06:11. | :06:12. | |
that many of the discussions about leaving the European Union | :06:13. | :06:20. | |
and I'm taking the legislation and the funding will happen | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
behind closed doors, between Government ministers and EU | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
Commission officials. I want this place to open | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
up that debate. We have already established | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
a committee that will lead on that work for this National Assembly | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
but I'm sure that every committee and this chamber in particular | :06:38. | :06:39. | |
will focus quite significantly over But the danger, of course, | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
is that there are many other aspects of work that are untouched, almost, | :06:43. | :06:51. | |
to an extent by the EU exit and those areas cannot be ignored | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
or sidelined, even. The future of our NHS, | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
education and general economic They all need to have | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
their place here as well. Sure, and we're already | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
being told... Assembly members already claim | :07:10. | :07:10. | |
that they are overworked. When you add to that workload | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
with the possibility of Brexit, with the possibility | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
of different tax powers. Is there a case to be made now that, | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
at the very least, Assembly members should be staying | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
here for longer hours? Could they come in on a Thursday | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
rather than a Wednesday? I have no doubt that the next five | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
years will prove a very difficult time for Assembly members | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
in terms of their workload. We have already extended | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
the formal calendar week of the National Assembly | :07:45. | :07:52. | |
since I've become Llywydd. We need to look at that again | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
at some point if matters We've already agreed | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
to lessen the recess period of the National Assembly for this | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
year and I suspect we may have Assembly members are going to have | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
to work out harder than they've ever worked before, given the increased | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
workload that will come with needing to ensure that Wales' interests | :08:19. | :08:20. | |
are properly looked after in terms of getting the EU exit to work | :08:21. | :08:29. | |
in Wales' interests and that is a big job | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
for the Assembly members. Elin Jones there, the second woman | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
to be the Presiding Officer, and indeed this week the UK | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
got its second female My guests are still here to talk | :08:41. | :08:42. | |
about that and everything else First of all, to pick up on what | :08:43. | :08:56. | |
Elin Jones was saying, you're probably going to have to work | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
longer hours, work harder, is that what you're expecting? Yes, and we | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
were expecting that from the moment tax powers were promised to the | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
Assembly, from the moment we got further powers in 2007. There are | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
only 60 of us, so compared with the 600 or so in Parliament there is a | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
greater burden on each Assembly member. As the discussion gone away | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
for the time being despite the increased workload? It has, for the | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
time being, because there are so many other things to discuss, it has | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
been squeezed out! That will come back at some point, the 60-70 | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
members are there for five years to do that job, but we will have | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
discussion about further numbers in the next few years. One of the | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
things Elin Jones was saying is that even though exit decisions are going | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
to be very important over the next few years, it must not be at the | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
expense of health and hospitals and schools, education. How difficult | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
balances that? It is difficult, because these things have | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
implications on everything. We cannot simply focus on the funds and | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
what we have lost. But how was that going to impact on the functioning | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
of society? We have got a massive load of education reforms coming | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
through this term. The NHS continues to be massively changing, and they | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
are trying to amalgamate health and social services more. Those things | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
cannot be left by the wayside. With the more powers coming, you cannot | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
lose scrutiny on those sites. Are the AM is up to it? Is the calibre | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
there to grapple with these huge challenges? I think there is. The | :10:37. | :10:45. | |
case will come back that we have less public money to use. It was a | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
little bit concerning in terms of Ukip entering, because they do not | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
tend to believe and evolution. -- believe in evolution. Although you | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
may not believe in this institution existing, you must take part in the | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
scrutiny that. But we have seen Ukip engaging and getting into the | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
issues. As long as they pull their weight, everybody can pull together | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
to make sure it works. It is not only Westminster which will have to | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
look at which European legislation it replaces replicates, there will | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
be an increasing role for the Assembly to look at environmental | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
legislation, for instance, that we have to do in Cardiff. Another huge | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
thing that has happened this week, Theresa May as the Prime Minister. | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
From the assembly point of view, what do you expect for change? In | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
the short term, I do not think things will change. David Cameron | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
was a very good Prime Minister in terms of engaging with us. I think | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
Theresa May will be the same. Do you know how she views Wales and the | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
Assembly? She is a liberal Conservative, so I do not think she | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
will be trying to roll back on devolution. I think she will be | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
looking to make the Welsh devolution settlement and the Constitution of | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
the UK as a whole work better. That work has to be done with the Welsh | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
civic society, and I'm looking forward to working with them. The | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
fact that Theresa May went to see Nicola Sturgeon yesterday, she will | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
be in Wales shortly. What do you think in terms of the constitutional | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
debate will happen? Will it trickle down to Wales? Hopefully. But it | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
will depend on whether Carwyn Jones it's himself forward. She went to | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
see Nicola Sturgeon straightaway, and she demanded it. I think Carwyn | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
Jones has to demand, in a way that we have to be around the table, it | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
cannot just be Scotland then Wales over here. It has to be part of the | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
same thing. There will be more calls for constitutional convention, that | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
will become stronger. Hopefully she will be receptive to that. Just | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
quickly, have you known a period like this in terms of politics, the | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
likes of which we have seen since the end of June? I was born a few | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
days after the 1975 referendum, and I do not think we have had such a | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
tumultuous times since then. Briefly on Theresa May, I believe we will be | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
seeing the Prime Minister visiting Wales sooner rather than later. | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
There is an opportunity there for Carwyn Jones to raise these issues | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
that mean a lot to us. Is a quieter period on the cards now? You cannot | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
say that, probably not. We're off for a rest | :13:46. | :13:46. | |
for a few weeks. Twitter never rests, of course, | :13:47. | :13:48. | |
so you can follow us there - we're @walespolitics but for now | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
that's all from me till September. Thanks for watching, | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
and bye for now. This week, Gregg and Chris | :13:55. | :14:12. | |
show how spending less on food... ..might be easier... It took me | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
literally two minutes to make it. | :14:17. | :14:20. |