18/09/2016 Sunday Politics Wales

Jeremy Corbyn insists he can re-unite the Labour Party if he wins

the leadership contest next week, but, as threats to deselect MPs

opposed to Mr Corbyn come to light, is Labour heading for meltdown?

She won the Ukip leadership on Friday, and by Saturday

was facing internecine spats and calls for her to ditch

So how can Diane James pull her party together,

and what's the point of Ukip post-Brexit?

Theresa May insists she doesn't need to call a fresh election,

so will she deliver every promise made in the 2015

Later in the programme: to check how much of it

An uphill struggle or a bracing challenge?

Ukip's new leader is in post, but the arguments

In London, the fightback began 12 Neil Hamilton joins us live.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

panel in the business - Tim Shipman, Helen Lewis

and Isabel Oakeshott, who'll be tweeting throughout

the programme using the hashtag #BBCSP.

By this time next week we'll know whether Jeremy Corbyn

will remain Labour leader, or if his challenger, Owen Smith,

Whoever wins, they face a big challenge to reunite the party

after months of hostilities between Corbyn supporters

in the grassroots and the majority of Labour MPs.

Tomorrow, two television documentaries are scheduled to air -

on BBC One and Channel 4 - which report on the

Speaking to the BBC's deputy political editor John Pienaar

for Panorama, Len McClusky, general secretary of the Unite

union, said opponents of Mr Corbyn need to get back

Some of the MPs have behaved absolutely despicably

and disgracefully, and they've not shown any respect

So those vocal dissidents who do not show the respect

to the leader that you describe, when it comes to deselection

they would simply be asking for it, you say?

I think they would, I think anybody who behaves in a way

that is totally disrespectful, and outwith the culture

of the Labour Party, is basically asking to be

Meanwhile, Channel 4's Dispatches programme secretly filmed a meeting

of Momentum activists in London - that's the organisation set up

to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, where the former

chairman of the Brighton Labour Party set out his views

on opponents of Corbyn, including the local

And we've been joined by the Labour MP for Hove, Peter Kyle.

Are you nervous about your future? I have seen that clip for the first

time now. I made three promises when I was up for selection, that I would

be the hardest working candidate, bring politics back to the high

street and engage with the public in a way that they never had in the

constituency before, and beat the Tories, and I have done all three of

those things. I have been incredibly hard-working with my team to make

sure politics is driven deeper and wider into the local constituency

than it ever has been before. We are more inclusive than any point before

and more hard-working... I want to ask you another question... If they

want to get me out of that seat, they have to work hard to do so. Is

there an organised campaign to remove you? You have just seen the

chair of my local party talking in a secret meeting somewhere to have me

ousted, so clearly there is a movement locally. I have been a

member of the Labour Party my whole life, there are people who have

fought for other parties their whole lives who have joined in the last

few weeks and are trying to beat the Labour Party in a different way, by

getting rid of me. I am going to carry on doing my job. They are

trying to get rid of you, aren't they? They are trying to

get rid of the only Labour seat for a 200 mile stretch of coastline.

That is extraordinary, we are surrounded down there by Tories and

they are aiming fire at a Labour MP working harder than any other down

there, trying to solve problems of the rail, the health service,

hosting a debate last week about abuse in the family Court against

women, all of these core issues for the Labour Party and that is what

they are aiming fire act. It does not seem to make any difference of

Mr Sandall, who was the head of the constituency, who was once

suspended, he says he does not -- you do not represent them any more?

He said I did not support the doctors, I did, I took the line

given by Heidi Alexander at the time, which was not to go to the

particular picket line. I have held round tables with doctors, spoken in

the chamber about doctors. He said a list of different areas where I have

not supported the Labour socialist left line, every one of them he is

absolutely categorically wrong. On rail renationalisation, I have never

spoken against it. I said it cannot happen for ten years so in the

meantime I am making sure I can make people's journeys home from work

better than the journey to work, which is what people expect. Who

will have the support, you all the people who want to get wood of you?

I don't think about that for a second, my job is to represent the

people who elected me. There is a 34% increase in the Labour vote in

Hove because of the way that my team ran the campaign. But they know all

that and they still want rid of you. Clive Lewis, fellow Labour MP, said

to the BBC this morning it is democratic selection. There is

nothing democratic about what they are doing,

there is nothing reaching out about what they are doing. Jeremy is the

first person I have come across who uses an olive branch as a weapon to

beat people with. On the same day they hold out an olive branch, they

released a list of MPs who they say hate Jeremy. This is not the kind of

inclusive leadership I would expect. If you face a battle to hold your

seat, you don't expect any help from Jeremy Corbyn? He has come down to

Brighton and said he would not stand in the way of my deselection. I am

100% focused on delivering for the people he elected me and I

represent, that is what I am in politics for, so if they want to

defeat me they have to work harder than me for the constituency, just

like the Tories would have to do. You have made that point several

times. You talk about being one of the few Labour seats in a sea of

Conservative seats in what in McLeod used to call the deep South, he did

that for a reason, but isn't your Brighton and Hove Labour party a bit

of a basket case? There have been examples of abusive behaviour, in

ballot, the NEC suspended it in July, it is a bit of a mess. When I

go out campaigning, which is every weekend, I have a massive team

around me, I am part of an incredible movement in Brighton and

Hove, and the vast majority of people in the Labour Party in

Brighton and nationwide want to do the right thing, they care about

social values and delivering it. We just have to win the argument but we

have to be more electable and Jeremy is not showing the calibre of

leadership that the official opposition needs, the

Labour Party needs, and the country needs to look to if we are going to

make the leap from opposition into power. Thank you for being with us

this morning. Later in the programme we hope to be joined by James

Schneider of Momentum. Allen, how typical is this

situation? Are a number of Labour MPs now going to face deselection

challenges? I think lots of people in the PLP are worried, more of them

are women than men, I don't know if that is coincidence or speaks to

something broader, but the boundary changes give golden opportunity for

some rethinking, Jeremy Corbyn is talking about selection. The idea if

you have a boundary change, if you have 40%, your steak on the seat is

the same but anybody not in that situation has to play a game of

musical chairs and that is seen as a good chance to reconfigure the

party. It is good this is coming out into the open because we have heard

for months from Jeremy Corbyn's team that this is a terrible smear but it

seems to be something that people like Len McCluskey, very close to

the Labour leadership, want to happen. It has been denied, but we

had Len McCluskey now saying he is up for the changes, particularly for

people who have been very rude about Mr Corbyn, Clive Lewis talking it --

calling it democratic selection, Momentum, as we have seen from the

film, clearly organising to move in on a number of MPs, it is going to

happen? Yes, I think it is, the phrase Clive Lewis used this morning

is a natural churn, are turn of phrase which suggest the label --

upheaval. People are saying that Jeremy Corbyn will reach out to all

of these people, ask what he has done wrong and bring everybody back

together. The people on the other side think that is a chance to line

up loyalty pledges. Meanwhile we hear this morning in the newspapers

that Corbyn and the people around him had a meeting in a country house

a month ago in which they are not just planning to go after MPs but

also the leadership of the Labour Party itself in terms of the

staffing, the Management, the general secretary is for the high

jump, we hear, and the guy they are thinking of lining up for that is

one of Mr Paloschi -- Len McCluskey's friends at Unite, you

cannot imagine they would put too many barriers in his way. That

appears to be what is going on behind the scenes. At every single

stage where the moderates say this is the worst thing that could

happen, the Corbynistas said, oh, no, it isn't, and you find out

something worse is going on. If Mr Corbyn is re-elected comfortably,

perhaps by even more of a majority than he was last time, isn't it only

natural that they should then work for the MPs to reflect more the

views of the new membership? One of the interesting aspects of what is

going on it it seems to be the new MPs like Peter Kyle who we have just

had on who were under so much threat here, and the reason is because they

have not got that hinterland with their party association, they have

not built up that long-term trust. One of the things that is furious

about this party leadership contest is that normally once a leadership

contest is over, it is a cue for a period of stability and calm, it

brings things to ahead everybody settles down and

falls into line. I think the opposite will happen here. There is

absolutely no sign that Jeremy Corbyn's return, as we expect to

happen, to the leadership will in some ways take the steam out of this

thing. They do have a plan, I think, at the moment, to give the

Parliamentary party some more power over the selection of the Shadow

Cabinet, and that could be a way of trying to work together better, but

I can't see it working. We will talk more about this later. Let's move on

to the Conservatives. Theresa May insists her Government

will be markedly different from David Cameron's,

but doesn't appear to want an early general election

to provide her with a new mandate. So, does that mean she'll stick

by everything in Conservatives' We've been busy crawling

through the promises made by David Cameron,

and updated our Manifesto Tracker to check which policies are being

pursued and which have been ditched. It's been an eventful

period since we launched Britain has voted to leave

the EU and a new Prime Minister is in place,

but the Conservative Government under Theresa May will still be held

to the promises it made ahead of the 2015 general election

in their manifesto, and a few other big commitments made

during the campaign. And this is how we are keeping

track of their progress. We have identified 161 pledges

and loaded them into We grouped them into categories

covering all the major areas of Government policy,

from the constitution And we have given each

of the promises a colour rating. Red means little or no

progress so far. Amber means the Government

has made some progress. While green is for delivered

pledges. Let's start by looking at one

here in foreign affairs and defence, The promise to hold a referendum

on our EU membership. We have changed that to green,

as the Government did deliver in June, even if it didn't get

the result it wanted. Many of the promises made

while David Cameron was leader were based around what he hoped

he could achieve in his renegotiation of our relationship

with the EU, particularly The manifesto said that EU migrants

who want to claim tax credits and child benefits must

live here and contribute The deal offered to David Cameron

by the rest of the EU was a much weaker version of the pledge,

which, like the rest of the renegotiation,

was rejected by the voters So we have given this a red,

although it is possible the Government could deliver on it

once we have left the EU. The same goes for the promise that

if a child of an EU migrant is living abroad, they should

receive no child benefit David Cameron's renegotiation failed

to secure this policy in full and it would be up

to Theresa May's Government if it The vote to leave has had big

implications for manifesto commitments in other areas,

like here in the economy. One of the central promises

made by David Cameron and George Osborne was this one,

to eliminate the deficit and start But after the Brexit vote,

Theresa May confirmed that while the Government aims

to achieve a budget surplus, it has dropped the target

of doing so by the end Now, those are some areas

where the Government has made little Well, it fought a major battle

in Parliament to tighten the rules This promise, which said strike

action can only be called when at least half the eligible

workforce have voted, is now law, As does this one, meaning that

strikes affecting essential public services like health,

education, fire and transport, will need the backing of at least

40% of those eligible to vote. We have marked the majority

of policies as amber, meaning at least some progress

is being made. Here in welfare, for example,

we have got the Government's flagship reform, universal credit,

which has been rolled out for some job-seekers,

although the timetable for full delivery has been pushed back

repeatedly and is currently And another here,

under the environment. That's the promise to create

a so-called bluebelt of protected conservation zones in the water

around the UK's coast. That has been given amber,

as the programme still Now let's see how the Government

is doing overall. Out of 161 election commitments,

the number of commitments we have The number marked amber falls to 90,

and the number of green or delivered We will be returning

to the Manifesto Tracker again, but in the meantime you can find

all of the data on the politics And you can see the full details

of our Manifesto Tracker on the BBC website -

that's bbc.co.uk/news. I'm joined by the Conservative

Cabinet minister, the leader of the House of Commons,

David Lidington. Your biggest manifesto fail to date

is immigration, how are you ever going to get net migration below

100,000? A number of different measures and clearly the nature of

the renegotiation now as we leave the European Union will have a very

important bearing on that, but one thing the Prime Minister set out

very clearly is that we remain committed to getting the reduction

in net migration that she has talked about consistently, but there's no

quick fixes. People come to this country through a number of

different routes, son to marry citizens, some for work reasons,

some for asylum claims, some of the study, and we have got to look at

each of those and work out how we can make sure the numbers are

managed and controlled in the way people would expect. But you have

been in power for six years and you have been in control of non-EU

migration for six years, and it is still running at 190,000 net per

year, even on the part of migration you are on complete control, you are

nowhere near the 100,000 target. Why? Because in part our economy has

been very sexual and other universities have been successful in

attracting people to come here. We need to make sure that people, when

they come here legitimately, to do a university course or take out a work

permit opportunity for a limited period of time, do actually return

home after they have completed that time they are permitted here, that

we, as we have done, cut the number of bonus colleges... 190,000 net per

year of non-EU, and you didn't say we will cut it to 100,000 unless we

run the economy well. There were no ifs, no buts, was David Cameron's

exact phrase. Can we get some honesty here, this whole project is

Mission impossible. The meteor manifesto pledge, you would have to

cut EU migration to below 50000 and non-EU migration to below 50,000.

It's not going to happen, is it? We are committed to the ambitions, the

object of the Prime Minister has set out. I think the public accepts that

people who come here bona fides as tourists, workers to fill a skills

gap we have got, that's fine but they expect people then to go back

after their term here. And they also expect, which we are doing, to make

sure school leavers have the opportunity to be trained so they

can take the jobs that are available. They expect you to meet

the promise you have made twice. He made it in the 2010 manifesto and

again in the 2015 manifesto. I think many people watching this will say,

why do you repeat a pledge you know you cannot keep? I don't agree it

cannot be kept, but what I have said to you is that this is a complex

challenge. There are no quick fixes to this, this is something Theresa

May has repeatedly said. But just as we have introduced restrictions on

access to benefits that we have introduced a requirement for people

coming to marry a British citizen to speak English and reach a certain

standard before they come here, we need to look at that level of detail

at each of the tracks that people used to come here. Net migration is

running at three times your target. In the manifesto you said you would

insist EU migrants would need to live and work here for four years

before they could claim welfare benefits. The EU said no. Now we are

leaving the EU, is that the minimum we will insist on? Clearly anything

to do with EU citizens already here and prospective inward migration by

EU citizens or British citizens to other EU countries is part of the

negotiation. Is that still a pledge? That specific pledge was part of the

last manifesto, it was actually delivered in a number of different

ways through the restrictions that we did place upon, and are still in

force, on EU migrants coming here seeking work and getting access to

out of work benefits. The big issue at the renegotiation David Cameron

lead was access to tax credits and in work benefits. He came to a deal

on that which limited it, but that failed after the referendum. It

wasn't that you don't get anything unless you have been here for four

years, your manifesto also promised the required EU job seekers to leave

if they haven't found a job within six months. Will that be fulfilled

pledge in this Parliament? That is already a policy we have taken. How

many EU citizens have you removed? I think we can agree to close the

norm. You have not kept that pledge, EU job seekers are here, aren't

they? That is one very important part of the exit negotiation is now

under way, but it wouldn't be sensible to give a running

commentary on the detail of that. Post Brexit, it would be reasonable

to think EU migrants still coming here would be regarded more

favourable than non-EU migrants? We were part of the club for 40 years.

What they get more favourable treatment if they were EU citizens?

That is speculation about what comes out of the negotiation, and we will

go into that with a range of objectives, both in terms of control

over migration by EU citizens, which I think is what British people

expected when they voted as they did, but also with the objective of

getting the best possible outcome for British business. On tax and

spend, one of the key promises in the manifesto was to move to fiscal

surplus from fiscal deficit by the end of the decade, do you still

intend to keep that? The PM said she remains committed, but not by the

end of the parliament. When you look at the fact there is uncertainty in

the world economy, clearly some uncertainty in the aftermath of the

referendum outcome, that was a sensible, pragmatic decision to

take. So do we have an idea of when the target of surplus will be? The

Chancellor will give his Autumn Statement in the next few weeks, and

will set out the Government's plan. The pledge to start a move towards

surplus in the 2018/19 manifesto, it said we are set to move into surplus

of them, that is now off the cards? We are committed to it, but not with

that timing. When you set out to a destination, if the traffic

conditions say you should take different route, that's what you do.

But we don't know if Brexit will be as dire as people like you

predicted, so until we do know that, why ditch the planned to head the

surplus that you promised the British people? Because there is

uncertainty in the world economy. It seems sensible to make that

adjustment, but the destination still remains. You have no evidence

anything has changed. You work on the basis of evidence remains but

Philip will be working on these details in the Autumn Statement

shortly. Will Theresa May's ferment continued to implement the 2015

manifesto? Is she committed to it in its entirety as much as David

Cameron? Yes, she was very clear out her first cabinet meeting that she

wanted every departmental minister to go back to the manifesto on which

we were elected with a majority, and to ensure that we were delivering on

those objectives. I think your tracker is a good idea. Just not

when it comes to the surplus or immigration? One point of the

tracker is that it enables you and the public to see where we are

making progress, as we are for example on getting more poorer

people out of tax and into work and so on, and where we have taken the

decision to alter the course of it. I'm glad you think the tracker is a

good idea. Come back in the future and we will talk more about it.

She says Ukip is the official opposition in waiting.

But how can Ukip's new leader, Diane James, stop the infighting

and factionalism that's threatened to destroy the party's

And what's the point of Ukip now that the UK

Diane James joins me live in just a moment.

First, Ellie Price reports from Ukip's party conference

in Bournemouth, where the new leader moved swiftly to put her stamp

It is an absolute pleasure to announce, with 8451 votes,

the leader of the UK Independence Party, Diane James!

There you have it, the biggest non-surprise

in politics in years - Diane James is the

She's been the frontrunner in this election campaign all summer.

Of course, the challenge now is going to be convincing this lot

What I will be doing is stepping into his leadership shoes,

but I will be doing everything to achieve the political success

that he's handing over to me and to you.

But, as the new leader, Diane James knows she has big shoes to fill.

Nigel's a great almost wartime leader, he said that

during his speech, and I think Diane's a different kind of leader.

There's talk of war, there's talk of peace times,

but unfortunately there aren't peace times within Ukip at the moment.

I think this pretty much settles the issue.

Diane is strong on these sorts of issues.

In many ways, Nigel was slightly weak, actually.

There's really only about four or five people who cause trouble

in Ukip, and I'm pretty sure that's the end of the story.

But just before a live interview with Ukip's Steven Woolfe,

I was literally caught in the middle of what you could describe

You've seen and heard what was said in the media, and so...

The reason for Neil Hamilton's anger?

Diane James had rewritten the next day's conference schedule

It certainly seems like a quixotic decision from somebody who an hour

or two ago was talking about the need for party unity.

He was replaced by his rival in Welsh Ukip.

You said to me the other day there would be a bloodbath,

Is this the beginning of the bloodbath?

I think it's the beginning of Diane putting her foot down,

showing that she is the leader, and that she wants the rest

of the conference to go the way that she wants it to go.

We're fine, just wondering who you are?

That's Douglas Carswell, by the way, the party's only MP.

The now ex-leader thinks he knows exactly who he is,

and was using his new-found freedom to explain.

During the referendum campaign, he's really done all he can

But the new leader was there, symbolically, to greet him.

Damaging comments from Mr Farage this morning,

Lots of people in politics say all sorts of things.

Diane James was also more than happy to share

Diane, I give you 110% of my support.

This conference ends on a conciliatory note,

and there are signs this party is already moving

And we've been joined by the new leader of Ukip, Diane James.

Good morning, thank you. What is the point of Ukip? We are the only party

100% committed to Brexit, we have a Tory Government that is still split,

a Labour Party that has no idea which direction it is going in. You

have what is left of the Liberal Democrats relying on their voice in

Europe, their single voice in Europe, to get their message across,

and we are the one party that will stand up for the over 17 million

people that wanted to leave the European Union, simple. Except that

you are dysfunctional? No, we are embarking on a brand-new era, as I

said on a conference. I know you will pick up on the changes I made

to the programme but the new leader has the prerogative to do that. I

understand that, and leaders should lead, but Paul Nuttall, the outgoing

deputy leader, has spoken of a cancer at the heart of the party

that has led to leading light using Ukip as a football. You have huge

problems in Wales, its huge problems with the NEC, an issue with Nathan

Gill, with many favoured candidates who ended up not standing, senior

colleagues falling out, membership and funding declining, which bit of

that is not dysfunctional? Thank you for reminding me of the issues I

have got to tackle over the next few weeks. I made it clear in my events

around the country that I would have a 100 day plan, focusing on

precisely the sort of issues you have outlined. I don't agree with

one of them, by any means, but in 100 days I hope to be able to show

that we are turning a corner and that we are embarking on a new era.

You claim you will be the real opposition to Government but you

only have one semidetached MP in Westminster, it is delusional? No,

it is not, look where we are at this point, potentially four

by-elections, we said we would not stand in one out of respect to Jo

Cox but three others, look at those by-elections in the context of the

dysfunctional position Labour is in, and we are ripe to take those seats.

Do you accept your only MP, Douglas Carswell, is pretty semidetached at

best? I would not call him semidetached, I heard the speech he

gave at the conference, the endorsement he gave me and the

endorsement he has given subsequently, and I see him as being

a member of the Ukip team going forward. You have asked to move a

Private members Bill to invoke article 50, has he agreed? He stated

he would do his level best. That is not the same as agreeing. He made

the point that there is another option, to repeal the European

communities act and instigate a debate on that. We have an

individual prepared to launch a two pronged attack in the House of

Commons and forced Theresa May into doing something. A two pronged

one-man attack. He told me on Friday that Ukip should be, quote, a

free-market Libertarian party. If that your vision? If I can remind

you, from my speech, my vision is probably slightly different words,

it is global, positive, outward looking, enterprise building and

making this country great again outside of the EU control. But if it

free-market and libertarian? That is his vision, I am trying to work out

the vision -- if the vision of your only MP is the same as the new

leader? OK, I will say it is the same. So you are free-market and

libertarianism? Yes, we are about enterprise Britain... Given the

leadership campaign was a policy free zone, what will be the most

distinctive policies Ukip will stand for under Diane James? Certainly the

issue of migration and immigration, certainly the issue of defence,

giving us back the ability to defend this country... These are existing

policies? No, these need a major refresh out of EU control. The

aspect of Homeland Security, the aspect we have not got a functioning

Border Force, we have not got a functioning passport control system,

we have even got a Home Secretary continuing the project via aspect of

a beaver charge for people going into Europe or coming to the UK.

Absolutely bizarre. I am just trying to find out what the policies will

be. The major one for me, given my background, the state that the NHS

is in, and if we can show a very clear vision and stand up to what

Jeremy Hunt is doing in terms of decimating the NHS, I will be

delighted. You will agree that is not a policy but an attitude...

It is a policy in terms of the NHS. We don't know about the policy

because you refused to debate with other candidates during the

leadership campaign and campaigned on a no policy platform, white? I

launched my own series of national events, nationwide, and I gave

members and activists, and, in fact, the press, the media, anybody who

wanted to come along, there was not a bar in terms of membership only,

to come along and interact with me for two hours. That gave

individuals, all of the members in the audience, a solid two hours to

scrutinise what I had to say. That was a much higher quality programme

that anything hustings would have given. But why not debate with your

rivals? Because there was no need, we were not fighting a general

election, we were fighting, if you wish to use the phrase, to elect the

new leader of Ukip, and I chose to go direct to the members, to

interact with them directly and give them quality time with me and

respond to all of their questions. Many think Ukip's best chance is to

win over disaffected working-class Labour voters in the north, so how

does the epitome of the Home Counties bourgeoisie do that? You

tell me! It is not my job. I have never heard such convoluted

language! Can you simplify that so we know what you are talking about?

There have been a number of leaders your party could have chosen, Paul

Nuttall, Steven Woolfe, who would have had a clear, more distinct

appeal to the north. Paul Michael chose not to stand. You need to ask

him his reason. I'm just asking how you will appeal to the North. Steven

Woolfe, a superb colleague of mine, regretfully there were issues in

terms of getting his information in in time. The point I have made

throughout my programme of events is that I want to have two chiefs of

staff, people who will ably assist me in developing our programme, our

policies, our strategy is to appeal both to the north and also the

south. What will you do about Wales, where Ukip seems to be involved in

civil war? I will ask Neil Hamilton to focus on Welsh Assembly, on

winning the elections in Wales, and I will ask Nathan to continue doing

a superb job he does in terms of representing Wales in the European

Union and Parliament, and in the voting in Strasbourg. So you will

have two Kings? No, Nathan has my complete and utter support, he has

had a huge legacy in terms of his membership, a huge wealth of

knowledge in terms of the issues facing Wales if Mrs May does not

action about to leave the European Union. He has got my full support.

Neil, I am asking you, step up to the plate, but focus on Wales and

the assembly. One of your party's main funders was an errant banks, in

the process of turning leave. EU into a momentum of the right, to

mirror the Jeremy Corbyn movement on the left, do you have a problem with

that? I have just been elected head of a political party. If he wishes

to support a political movement, that is his decision. Other than

Vladimir Putin, who is your main political hero? Certainly not Donald

Trump or Hillary Clinton. I did not ask who was not, who is? I cannot

think of anybody apart from Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill.

Putin, Churchill and Thatcher. We hope to see you again. Thank you.

It's just gone 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Hello and welcome back to the Sunday Politics Wales,

as we mount the political rollercoaster for more

On today's programme: Diane James has only just taken over

at Ukip, but the arguments have already started.

And as the Labour leadership contest enters its final furlong,

will the party unite around the winner?

But first, we couldn't open a new series without mentioning Brexit,

and one of Theresa May's Cabinet has told this programme the final

decision will be made in Westminster not in Wales.

Alun Cairns was speaking after the First Minister said

all the devolved assemblies should have to ratify the deal.

So could there be a Brexit without Wexit?

It's going to be a long journey, so we sent

Setting off on a journey to the unknown.

But the path to the summit is far from well trodden.

On his summer trekking holiday in the Swiss Alps wrecks it

On her summer holiday in the Alps Brexit

The task of navigating the country's departure from the European Union

is unprecedented in both scope and complexity.

Now, the UK Government is keeping its cards

But it is in the process of plotting its Brexit route.

So how does Wales ensure that it isn't left behind?

Visiting Cardiff back in July the Prime Minister had plenty

of warm words for the Welsh government.

I want the Welsh government to be involved, engaged in

But, on his own trip to the USA last week the First Minister had

a warning, without access to the single market and protection

for the rights of citizens from EU countries, Wales would be

unlikely to give its consent to the Brexit deal.

What I have said is that all four countries should ratify,

should agree, the deal the UK Government comes true.

It wouldn't be right for the UK Government to negotiate in terms

of farming and fisheries, when they have no role in farming

and fisheries in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

A lack of consent would undoubtedly be politically difficult

But her government is in no doubt as to who will be making

Ultimately, it will be the cabinet that will make the decision,

and ultimately, it's the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister has tasked me to look after Wales's interests.

We will come to a view that serves the whole of the United Kingdom.

It's my job to make sure that Wales is the centre of those discussions.

Involved and engaged, central to the discussion.

Both governments are using positive words about the role Wales will play

As empty and meaningless as the phrase 'Brexit means

Pointing the finger, the opposition parties

in Cardiff Bay say it's action that is needed from the Welsh

So what has Carwyn Jones's government done?

Well, there's a new Cabinet subcommittee chaired

A dedicated team of civil servants and, the end of the month,

a Brexit external advisory group will meet for the first time.

But they will be no new Brexit secretary or department.

The opposition also wants more clarity from the First Minister has

changed his position on the timing of Brexit negotiations.

And cause confusion about his stance on the single market.

A matter of semantics, say government officials.

But, ultimately, there's the serious question of how much political

leverage politicians in Cardiff, and indeed,

right across Wales, will have in these Brexit discussions.

After all, in Scotland the independence question

Then in Northern Ireland there is the headache of finding

an acceptable solution to the border issue.

Also, whereas those devolved nations voted to remain

in the European Union Wales backed Brexit.

Wales's interests, in some ways, are overlapped with those

of Scotland and so as far as it being marginalised I think if Wales

and the Wales political actions look to correspond to those interests

then there is hope that they won't be that marginalisation.

We've only just started on this journey.

These are the first tentative steps in what is going

Well, after that vote to leave the EU in June you'd think Ukip

would be in celebration mode for their conference in Bournemouth.

Diane James has taken over as the party leader,

but over the Summer its former leader in Wales parted company

Neil Hamilton leads that group and is here now.

thank you for coming in. Let's start with what we've just heard on the

network programme. Diane James was saying she wants you to step up to

focus on Wales and the Assembly. Those are her words. What do you

make of that? She obviously hasn't been watching

the televised debates from the Assembly week in week out since the

5th of May. That's what I've been doing in Cardiff four days a week,

concentrating as might job as an AM. As the leader of the group buying

the centrepiece of that. We've had debates, we had won an Brexit last

week that we initiated. I ask questions of Carwyn Jones every

Tuesday. I guess that the perception might be

that you don't get on with Nathan Gill, she's given 100% support him.

She says she trusts him implicitly. She didn't offer the same level of

support to you. Is that a concern? Obviously, I want to get on with the

leader of my party. I give her 100% support as the elected leader of the

party. I've known her for five years and she's been in Ukip. The problem

with Nathan Gill is that he's doing two jobs. MEP and AM.

She says concentrate on my job in Cardiff, that's what I'm doing. His

problem is that he can't. He can't be in two places at once.

That is what this dispute is about. This has come to dominate the

headlines for Ukip in Wales because of the clandestine briefing which is

going on. It's not coming from me. That's a

problem with a split in the party. We heard from Alex Phillips, a

former press officer to the party saying that whenever bombs go off in

the party you're always there, as a Machiavellian character...

She also said I was a Rasputin character. Let's have the full

story. From what Diane James says today,

when she asked you to consider just on the Assembly she's suggesting

you've been trying to have your finger in things on a UK level is

that right? That is absolutely not true. The

focus of my attention has been here in Cardiff and in my region of West

Wales which takes me up to the clean peninsula. Let's look at Alex

Phillips. She was a member of the Conservatives but is implied by

Nathan Gill to attack the leader of the Ukip group in the Assembly and

vulgar terms. This is an intolerable situation and can't be allowed to

continue. She's not your to defend herself.

What I want to talk about is what is next for Ukip in Wales. We've heard

not a lot of detail about weird and James wants to take Ukip, you are

the leader in Wales, she wants you to concentrate on Wales, what's

next? We've got council elections in May

next year. They are important because it's every four years...

What is your pitch? What are you standing on now that you had people

to leave the EU? What is the point of Ukip?

We have a debate on grammar schools and technical and vocational

education. We want to democratise the health service so that those who

use it can make the priorities overall and not the bureaucrats.

They're all sorts of things like that that women are manifested in me

that if we were in government we be able to impairment.

We are only six members out of 60 in the Assembly but we use our

influence because we hold the balance of power because Labour

doesn't have a majority. I've been pushing in such a project as well,

M4 improvements and so on. And also the opportunity that Brexit gives us

to support the steel industry because we will be able to put 's

duties on imports under dos energy prices as well.

There are lots of policies that Ukip has a unique take on.

In terms of Brexit you had a debate on Wednesday in the Assembly where

Plaid Cymru were talking about infrastructure and Wales development

agencies. They were troubled banks and so on. But I was listening to

the Ukip debate and it was far less concrete, if I can put it that. You

were talking about great opportunities, freedom, positive,

but nothing concrete. What are your top priorities for Brexit in Wales?

We need a cultural policy specifically for Wales because Wales

is very different in terms of geographical conditions to many

parts of the United Kingdom. We need to get on with these introductory

project that I was talking about and having the opportunity... But that

is not Brexit necessarily. The case of supporting these dealings you,

one of the reasons we haven't been able to reduce business rate on Port

Talbot is because that is a disguised form of state aid

forbidden under EU law. They are also thought Michael policies that

we want to support. Hopefully we can have you on going

to discuss them in future. Thank you very for coming in.

Opposition parties need to work together, or the Conservatives

could be in power at Westminster for a "very long time",

that's the warning from the leader of the Welsh Lib Dems.

Before leaving for his party conference in Brighton,

David Cornock put it to Mark Williams that with only one

AM and one MP, was there any point to his party any more?

Of course there's a point to the Lib Dems in Wales.

I think that's vindicated across the UK, including Wales,

with many, many more people joining the party.

I think people like what they've heard about the party's

They like what they've heard about refugees.

And the narrative about home rule, the narrative about education.

The narrative about the environmental agenda.

That's what we've got to get across to people.

They like what they hear about Europe, most people have just

Think they're growing number of people have joined

the Liberal Democrats as a direct result of what we've said

on the European issue, and as a party I think the clarity

with which we've spoken on that issue has been respected

I respect the verdict of the people in that referendum, of course,

who am I to challenge 52% of the British people?

But many people have concerns about the direction of travel.

They applaud what Tim Farron has been saying, what we've

You also mention that voters might your message on home rule.

You are the party of home rule, but the Welsh Liberal Democrats

A quirk of our Constitution, and the electoral circumstances

in which the party finds itself means that the leader was either

going to be the Minister of education in the National

Assembly and the Government of Wales, or myself.

And I'm proud to be leader of the party.

I'm going to do what I can for the party in the expectation

that what we are working towards is more AMs selected,

and a group in the National Assembly again.

I'm going to do whatever I can to achieve that.

I'd like to think, having defended Ceredigion on two occasions,

I'm quite equipped to help win elections.

You mentioned the Minister for education in Wales,

Tim Farron says that he can't really foresee going into coalition

with Labour, but there you are, your predecessor,

I'll just reiterate the point, your earlier question,

that was a decision that was taken by a party independent,

within a federal structure, the party membership at a conference

and voted on the pros all that Kirsty Williams would take

forward, into government, Liberal Democrat seemed,

Liberal Democrat priorities on the issue of education.

I think that's what she's doing very effectively.

I'll be open with you, I think at this point in time,

with boundary changes which massively support

and encourage the Conservative Party in the future there is a case

for politicians to be talking, what I would loosely describe

To be talking about issues of common interest.

There was a positive in the referendum, even for those

of us that lost it, in that progressive politicians

were working together on a really important issue.

I think that dialogue should be extended in other areas

and policies as well, otherwise, we have the spectre

of conservatism in power in Westminster for a very long time.

We speak on the eve of your conference,

a big one for Tim Farron, really, because he's not

Well, with respect to my friends at BBC Wales, that's a matter,

in part for BBC Wales and the other media outlets.

Tim Farron has been stomping up and down this country

He's been to Wales on numerous occasions.

I was with him going around the Royal Welsh.

He had a very good response from the farming community

The message is increasingly being heard.

The last poll I saw in Wales did see an increase in Liberal Democrat

We had a terrible election result in 2015.

In fact, it was arguably worse in the Assembly elections.

But, equally, there is no point dwelling on that.

We've got to build the party up again.

I came to the House of Commons when there

I look forward to the day that we have more MPs year,

more Assembly members, and leadership of many more

councils across Wales in the way that we used to.

That's an aspiration of recent history, it's

an aspiration that we can achieve if we are enthusiastic

This time next week we'll know whether the Labour Party

is "continuing with Corbyn" or "swapping to Smith".

Whatever happens, will the Party then unite, or will we see

Jo Stevens is the MP for Cardiff Central and supports

Owen Smith, while Shavanah Taj is the head of the PCS Union

Thank you both for coming in this morning. Joe, to start off with, it

does seem, according to the polls it seems likely that Jeremy Corbyn may

win on Saturday. What happens then? How difficult will it be for whoever

winds to unite the moving ahead? We'll see what happens on Saturday.

Whoever winds has a huge responsibility as leader of the

official opposition. That responsibility is not just to the

party comments to the country as a whole. I hope that whoever winds,

we'll see three things from them, the ability to create a united team

to take us forward. Policies that are distinctive and credible that we

can explain how we are going to pay and deliver them. And the ability to

communicate those policies effectively to over 10 million

people who need to vote for us to see those policies into reality.

There is a responsibility on the next leader, if it is Corbyn isn't

there every responsibility on you as an MP to make that work?

Absolutely. But as leader you have a specific personal responsibility to

a country. To do that we are going to have to do things differently to

how we've done them for the last 12 months. We have to make compromises.

And make changes. We have to communicate more effectively what

our vision for the country is so that we can persuade people we are a

government in waiting. If your guy winds, Jeremy Corbyn,

wings, wouldn't that be proof that he does have the support he's always

said is there so that he shouldn't be the one compromising? In order to

move forward as a united party, Jeremy Corbyn has already said

regardless of who gets in, we will have to make compromises. He's made

it quite clear that he recognises that he could have done things

better as far as communication is concerned. That is public knowledge

as far as the party is concerned. I think, ultimately, our biggest fight

that we have an hands at the moment is making sure that we are united

and strong enough to fight the Tories who are going ahead and

destroying everything that a Labour, ultimately, built in the first

place. Is it helpful when you've got former

leaders like Neil Kinnock, Lord Kinnock, the former Welsh MPs saying

he doesn't think Labour will ever be in power in his lifetime and Jeremy

Corbyn. Everyone's entitled to their own

opinion. There's going to have two be lots of discussions. They'll be

discussions at the party conference as well. He is entitled to his

opinion, but ultimately, going forward, if it is Jeremy Corbyn who

winds, and I do feel that it will be him again. There is a responsibility

to unite everybody but there is also a responsibility on each of the MPs

to unite behind the leader. We had good control recently we had the

debate around grammar. You know, there are things we can do. We can

be united and much more strong. That is what our members want. But

would you, for example, you were shadow Justice Minster in the past

under Jeremy Corbyn... I still am! You would continue that? You don't

have any qualms? I took a decision. I didn't backed Jeromy last year and

I haven't backed him this year. But whoever winds my loyalty is to the

party and the leadership to make sure that we can fight the Tories.

-- whoever winds. When it comes to the front bench, we've seen about

electing members of the Shadow Cabinet nod from MPs but from the

membership of the party is that a go? Jeremy Corbyn didn't deny it

today. There will be a discussion next week in which they will be a

discussion about the motion that was passed at the Parliamentary Labour

Party meeting about having a proportion of the Cabinet elected by

members. You can see why people think that might help to heal the

rifts of the party. There is a view expressed this week that may be the

membership should elect. We'll have a discussion about it and see where

we go. What are your thoughts? It's

difficult if you have the membership electing and why would you only have

it for the PLP. Would you have it for the Cabinet and Welsh Assembly,

for council cabinets? What makes it different for Parliament. There are

issues and practicalities. The NEC will take a view and ultimately

conference house to ratify it. You are leading me tidily to this

what about Wales now, if Jeromy Corbyn winds on Saturday it seems

likely, but if he does succeed on Saturday you will have a group to

the right, do they need to be changes in Wales as we've seen with

what's happened and the momentum of the group are?

I think the situation in Wales is somewhat different. Here we've got

Welsh Labour grassroots which is a subgroup which ultimately is

affiliated to momentum, said Julie. In terms of Wales and the politics

of Wales, yes, they are somewhat different. But that is because of

the fact that we've got devolution here. We don't have the same level

of devolution as Scotland. There are going to be differences.

But the point with the labour at a UK wide level is the party hasn't

been reflecting the views of members. You could make the same

point about Wales. You've got all the Labour grassroots people, the

new members, is the Assembly group and be First Minister reflecting the

views of the Labour members in Wales?

I think that's a different discussion. Let's have it. That's a

discussion for Welsh Labour. Welsh Labour needs to have that

discussion. Yes, it is true that ultimately we do have the likes of

Neil Hamilton and others sitting in an Assembly, it's not an outcome I

was looking forward to, or wanted, ultimately. We've got a lot of work

to do to make sure that we once again become the majority. I think

that is something that we are going to have to do. We have two win on

the streets. We have to show that we are united as one Labour. Yet in

Wales or elsewhere. As Joe says, Alta McGee, Joe didn't support

Jeremy Corbyn last time, and hasn't this time. -- ultimately she didn't

support him last time. But what she did do to other MPs where people

have been unhappy, she held a nomination meeting and there was an

open discussion with members in terms of who they believe is the

right candidate to lead. So, ultimately, I think what members are

looking for is democracy. They want a say. The rules and regulations...

Sorry, we are just a little stuck on time. If Jeromy Corbyn tours when,

what needs to happen next was macro -- if Jeromy Corbyn is successful

what needs to happen next? We need better communication across

the board. My thanks to Greg Hands,

Tom Brake and Neil Coyle, Will Jeremy Corbyn be able

to reunite the Labour Party if he's If Theresa May facing a backbench

rebellion over her Brexit strategy? And does Tim Farron have any chance

of staging a Lib Dem comeback Back with me now is Helen Lewis,

Isabel Oakeshott and Tim Shipman. Also, following on from our

interview with Labour MP Peter Kyle, who's complained that some Corbyn

supporters are trying to deselect him, we can

speak to the national organiser for Momentum,

James Schneider, who joins James, there is mounting evidence

that one of the purposes, one of the purposes, of Momentum is to get more

Corbyn friendly Labour MPs elected. Are you still denying that? There is

not mounting evidence that Momentum is campaigning for the. We are not

campaigning for the selections. The one person who is apparently going

to appear in a documentary tomorrow calling for Peter Kyle to be

deselected isn't a member of Momentum. So you would urge all

Momentum supporters in Brighton and Hove to back Mr Kyle, the sitting

MP? That is not what I'm saying, I'm saying selections are a matter for

local party members and affiliates and it is their right to decide what

they would like to decide. Momentum is not campaigning to reselect any

particular MPs. So why was Mr Sandel addressing a group of Momentum

supporters, telling them how to go about deselecting anti-Corbin Labour

MPs? He was invited by one local group. In a big organisation which

is very, very active, 150 groups, 18,000 members, tens of thousands of

activists, people have democratic debate and get invited for talks,

that is normal. One meeting does not dictate national policy. Are you

telling us today that Momentum, at the local level, is not and will not

be involved in any efforts to replace sitting MPs? What I'm

telling you is that the selections are a matter for local Labour Party

members and affiliates. It is their right to choose through the

mechanisms laid down by party conference and the National

Executive Committee, to do that, that is completely normal. What I am

saying is Momentum is not campaigning for any deselection.

Even at a local level? Momentum is not campaigning for deselection. Are

you telling me Momentum is not involved in trying to get rid of

local MPs at local level, is that what you are saying? Andrew, what

I'm telling you is that selections and elections within the Labour

Party are the democratic right for members and affiliates. We are not

trying to interfere with that, one way or the other. There may be

members of Momentum who are members of the Labour Party who take a

particular view on their MP, for example myself, I am a member of

Momentum and the Labour Party, I take the view on my MP, I really

like my MP. Who is your MP? Keir Starmer. So his position is safe

from Momentum? All MPs' positions are safe... We have got Len

McCluskey of Unite saying it is time to get rid of MPs who have been

overcritical of Mr Corbyn, Mark Sandell lecturing Momentum on how to

unseat sitting MPs, Clive Lewis describing deselection as simply

democratic selection. Have you not had the memo yet? Andrew,

selections, as I keep on saying, are the democratic right of local party

members and affiliates. I am not trying to stop anybody having those

rights, those rights are extremely important in a democratic party, but

what I'm not going to do is be goaded into saying something I don't

think, which is that Momentum should be organising for deselection is

because that is not what we are doing. You are not being goaded,

simply questioned. Is it correct that Momentum would like to have, or

plans to have, what it is calling an engagement officer in every

constituency Labour Party just to keep an eye on what is going on? Can

you tell us what the engagement officer would do? It is half true.

If you look at the guidelines on Momentum's website, to be a verified

local Momentum, you need positive engagement with your local Labour

Party, local trades union branches, community and activist groups, so

each group has Labour Party engagement officers so that people

are making sure they are taking part in the party, we want people to be

as involved in the Labour Party as they can be, to be campaigning and

part of a Democratic Party. Thank you, I know this was short notice,

thank you for joining us this morning.

Let's move on because we talked about Labour at the beginning. To

the Lib Dems. Theoretically, the Lib Dems, at this point, given what is

happening to Labour, given Mrs May and grammar schools, there could be

an opening for the Lib Dems, but is there any sign of it? At the moment

the thing that Tim Farron could do to get noticed would be to go

skinny-dipping off Brighton beach because it might get him some press

attention. He gave quite an interesting speech which I'm afraid

I read on my mobile phone rather than watching in person, which tells

a tale itself. This is a guy trying to rebuild locally, get

councillors elected again, being relatively successful at that, they

just got a 38% swing in athletes the other day against the Labour Party,

but it is a long road back and at the moment they are not exploiting

the national opportunity they have got. I think the problem they have

got is their grassroots network is so depleted, the opposite situation

to the Labour Party. They do not have the kind of infrastructure any

more, there are no resources, human or financial resources, they don't

have the people to go out there and knock on doors. Tim Farron, a great

and lovely guy, but he doesn't provide the most charismatic of

leadership and they really deep to find something to pin a revival on,

and at the moment it isn't there. I am more upbeat than these two, it is

a long road back that there is a space down the middle between their

Labour is and the Conservatives are, it is very authoritarian at the Home

Office which opens up a space for a Liberal party. They have only got

eight MPs, if they had more, we would be paying more attention to

them. Attention is one of the problems, getting attention is

difficult for them, there will not be that many senior journalists at

the Lib Dem conference. Then never used to be. We are going way back to

where it Lib Dems used to be a long time ago. But it is worse, if you

look ten years ago at least they had a reasonable cohort but I don't

think the number of MPs is the issue. To get attention you have got

to be spiky, punchy, pumping out controversial press releases, they

are not doing that. But they have an advantage over Labour, they are used

to talking to people who disagree with them, there are relatively few

friendly ears for the Lib Dem, and I think there are some signs of

resurgence but it is a long road back. There is a new Tory group

campaigning for hard Brexit. It is fair to say that the longer Mrs May

waits to trigger article 50, the more Tory divisions will come to the

surface? I think that is fair enough, absolutely, but I have some

sympathy with her position of leaving it until she has got her

ducks in a row. Once Article 50 is triggered, there is a limited time

frame to work out the negotiations, and you had an interesting guest

earlier, we had David Liddington who spent so long on the European

diplomatic circuit, and his view is that you do need time to work all

this out before you press the button on it. So not this side of New Year?

But you cannot leave it forever because there are European elections

coming up, it would be ludicrous to be in a position where we are

re-elected MEPs. I will out myself as a moaning Remainer. Nigel Farage

this morning said people voted to get out of the single market. Did

they? Again, no one knows what Brexit means. We will talk more

about that as autumn progresses. Jo Coburn will be back

on BBC Two tomorrow at noon with coverage of the Lib Dem

conference in Brighton. I will bring Tim Farron's speech on

Tuesday. And I'll be back with more

Sunday Politics live from the Labour conference in Liverpool

here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics.