25/09/2016 Sunday Politics Wales

Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided

who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.

So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?

Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn

elected as leader of the Labour Party.

Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".

But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?

We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak

to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.

Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.

His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah

but he will never become the leader -

He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -

we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.

David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May

because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the

Labour's sticking with Corbyn but will the party in

And what does the opposition make of Carwyn Jones' plans

In the capital, how is this rivalry shaping up?

London's Mayor warns pointedly that you can only change lives

And we tried to oust them from the programme -

but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best

and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,

Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting

David Cameron became intensely frustrated

at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions

in the run-up to the EU referendum campaign.

That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.

The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:

The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail

The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy

Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach

At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's

Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's

He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after

saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".

And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over

backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read

There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we

know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us

is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the

only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a

submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during

the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why

does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,

they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing

fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver

says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of

Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind

Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did

she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a

reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.

What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was

she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is

unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things

we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to

which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet

seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we

see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be

exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the

fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I

missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a

minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he

would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and

politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking

them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the

country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis

of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics

before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played

the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the

Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them

and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective

during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the

leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that

effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official

at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me

earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had

declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great

admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.

So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made

Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing

contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership

ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the

Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and

the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they

wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of

the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more

about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile

for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't

want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They

calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa

May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than

Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed

her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for

20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more

about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there

too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as

an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we

need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing

Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who

likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is

tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we

want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the

result everyone expected. After almost three months

of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -

so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -

or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching

events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour

family facing the future. He was the head of the family last

week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader

and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader

and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest

and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just

over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's

plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members

all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive

education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school

segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging

agenda for our country. But the big message

to his party was this. We have much more in common

than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe

that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do

as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go

and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy

Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory

parties, but the most important thing now is just

bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing

is going around all the different individual party receptions,

the different regions and giving the same unity message,

and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,

with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found

a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited

in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going

to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?

Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me

so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?

Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out

their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound

entirely convinced. It was fine.

What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm

the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that

Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates

within the PLP. I think that's

the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then

change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,

posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,

he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those

issues as well. This is a position,

as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in

position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister

of this country unless you appeal to the great population,

and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no

leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,

they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics

are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially

plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter

here at the festival running alongside conference,

organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon

that they have managed to get their hero elected,

not just once but twice. And we're joined now

by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.

Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of

2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,

or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?

You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.

As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated

plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because

I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I

was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find

ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the

capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a

concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A

number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was

clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At

the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said

he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did

there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger

than ever. What we have done this is have a

really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was

important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out

and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got

to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the

last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to

understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective

opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to

get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but

only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him

the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this

process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the

2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who

knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when

it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would

have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and

it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your

party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can

unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the

country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest

of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to

continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of

the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General

Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We

need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but

it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next

General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and

capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,

everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are

competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer

that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have

doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been

honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over

the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the

concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be

congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear

victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that

they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my

mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party

forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit

unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the

Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.

Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about

wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The

time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his

willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet

should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --

majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the

cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been

playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours

following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the

last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing

that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His

support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the

membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who

gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So

why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that

part of the Labour Party which likes him least?

I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party

incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order

to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic

duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't

have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of

travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful

results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability

to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.

If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --

he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and

humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he

could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he

sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many

would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be

good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that

route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow

Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit

in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't

changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you

just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two

leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even

bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the

country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in

the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my

experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I

think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary

Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.

I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the

backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the

front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,

Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have

you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would

you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow

Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take

their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to

their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of

the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for

some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed

Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general

fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to

be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did

Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?

I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond

the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy

Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment

programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy

Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen

Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy

Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'

John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left

and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as

left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have

any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,

actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and

our belief that the British people should have a say on the final

Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general

election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as

well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the

difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has

changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear

difference between the new members who have come in and those who were

party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would

be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who

more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we

want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the

Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about

that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)

Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,

new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I

would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what

I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be

honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a

hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new

members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom

have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should

remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people

joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so

there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy

Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I

understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know

there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when

you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the

biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a

team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she

will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet

elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi

Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this

leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade

Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use

the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee

is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win

control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn

first became leader, there has been a fine balance

on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,

the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up

to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members

representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,

the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,

with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these

could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been

boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,

who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed

a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour

leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn

Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move

to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,

a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks

three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,

Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,

is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect

people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists

on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting

the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more

say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow

Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future

leadership elections, which would make it almost

impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making

a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared

by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -

a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC

and takes up her seat at the end of the week -

and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith

in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The

figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn

and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is

very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn

supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What

about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives

to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would

be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.

In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the

balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing

because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh

representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,

it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think

of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm

really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's

incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.

So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,

they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?

Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving

towards having better representation, it's actually taking

an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,

the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that

would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote

from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that

through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is

it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I

understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the

conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting

things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on

conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the

side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.

Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that

could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections

for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I

don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you

can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is

this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't

serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would

you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to

listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it

entirely elected by members. All elected?

But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one

third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP

could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn

agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about

party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional

unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories

to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you

need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not

come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A

few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some

kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is

political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.

If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words

of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and

should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like

that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a

decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,

and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory

deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the

PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other

ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other

ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the

Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership

of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between

the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of

people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some

of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other

way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could

change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a

membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already

vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off

people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour

heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was

an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in

the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could

reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come

back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to

recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.

It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!

It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

No big surprise as Jeremy Corbyn remains Labour leader,

but what will that mean for the party in Wales?

And in Cardiff Bay, the agenda for government has been laid out,

but with no majority, there may have to be compromises.

But first, after weeks and weeks of arguing,

bickering and more than a little name calling, Labour has decided not

to change horses after all, and stick with Jeremy Corbyn.

But now that the leadership question has been settled,

for the time being at least, what does this mean

David Cornock has been roaming around the conference

Owen Smith said if Jeremy Corbyn won, it would be Groundhog Day for

So here we are again with a newly elected leader

The difference this year, of course, is

that Mr Corbyn needs to replace the dozens of MPs who left the front

bench because they had no confidence in his leadership.

It is important there is give and take, really.

Everyone in the party has to draw breath, I think,

and learn some lessons over what has happened over the summer.

That includes MPs but it also includes the leadership as well.

Some MPs will go back, others will not.

Some will go back but only if MPs themselves are able to choose

Jeremy Corbyn isn't keen on that idea, it would

Even those loyal to the party leadership say it

is time now for him to compromise on that one.

He, as Leader of the Opposition, has a responsibility to

I think that a gesture around Shadow Cabinet,

some of the things he said in his speech today about there being no

place for abuse within the party, some definite action, some clear

action on that would be a good start.

Labour may not be able to decide how to choose its own Shadow Cabinet

but this conference should agree to give more powers to the

Control over their own elections and a permanent seat

on the national executive committee should enable Welsh Labour to

distance itself slightly from a more left-wing leadership at Westminster.

But critics might argue that this autonomy is more symbolic than real.

We belong to the same democratic tradition,

we belong to the same democratic party, a radical party.

We can work together, we do work together all the time.

I think there has been a lot of froth about the falling out,

to some extent created by sections of the media who obviously,

for the entertainment value, but some of them for

political reasons, are extremely dubious of Jeremy's position.

And get on with the work we've got to do as a

Jeremy Corbyn may have used his victory speech to

appeal for party unity but he also used it to remind the audience here

that he is now won a second mandate in a year.

Critics fear that his supporters in constituencies will

use that mandate as an excuse to deselect MPs who don't share Jeremy

Over the summer there has been a lot of loose talk, really.

The important thing now is that is put behind us.

I think it is important, we move beyond slogans, we are all Labour.

What then of the Welsh MP behind the leadership challenge?

Owen Smith has always said that he would not go

back to serve in Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet.

After a bruising experience, he will now take time to

The hope of his supporters that that leadership challenge would

destabilise Mr Corbyn, now appears a forlorn one.

Now this morning the leader of Welsh Labour, Carwyn Jones,

said in his words "the booing, the hissing" has to stop.

A few moments ago I spoke to the Health Minister

Vaughan Gething, who's at the Conference in Liverpool.

I began by asking him how they could start

Every side of this debate needs to recognise we've got a responsibility

to make our party worker, not just for the sake of the Labour Party but

the sake of all those communities that need a Labour government across

the UK. In Wales, with got a good story to tell. We've got a unity of

purpose. Still in government, still making decisions, making choices to

improve communities. That is what we need to do within the UK. There has

to be an acceptance of differing views, that has got beat them in a

common manner. We provide a unified opposition in parliament and then we

persuade people we really are an alternative government. That can't

be done if people aren't prepared to act in a more unified manner in the

future. Both sides of this debate as to recognise they have a

responsibility for that to happen. The country can finally have another

Labour government is to undo the damage being done by the Tories.

Do you think Jeremy Corbyn should be reaching out, doing more and being

more in listening mode to Carwyn Jones as one of the foremost Labour

politicians in terms of seniority in the UK?

The leadership of the party does that to reach out. In Jeremy's

speech yesterday he indicated he would do that. In reaching out to

people within the PLP has to look bound -- beyond. In Wales they will

be aired Day of action to oppose plans for grammar schools in

England. In Wales, we don't have them. We have managed to do them

through difficult election cycles. Carwyn Jones should be part of

Jeremy's conversation about is what we need to do to have a successful

Labour Party, to take victory at a future devil collection, to deliver

a UK Labour government is because that is the purpose of our party. We

want to implement our values in government and to make a real

difference for people across the country, not simply to have a debate

from the comfort of opposition. My community suffers from not having a

UK lobby government just as I can see the communities they represent

seeing benefits from having Welsh Labour running government.

In terms of the constituency Labour Party is now all of which have seen

in increasing growth of the number of members, Nu Labour supporters

coming in. How confident are you that the Labour Assembly group

represents the feelings of those new members, far to the left of the

original Labour member party members when it comes to Assembly Members.

How reflective are you of their views and opinions?

There are two things to say. We were selected recently and we fought an

election within the last few months. It isn't that far-away we're putting

ourselves... Should there be a reselection before

the next Assembly election? There will be a normal reselection

process for Assembly Members as that is every time. We will go through

the triggered by this process, an opportunity to put ourselves in

front of the public. The really important thing I want to stresses

within the party in Wales, within Welsh Labour, we have shown we can

have a difference in opinion, we can celebrate that has a strength

because the policy we need to have has to have honest minds and voices

about our challenges and successes. That has to be listening to all the

different parts of our members. At the moment you are having these

debates... You having be spat in public and the public are seeing

that. That is right Jeremy Corbyn's challenges the convinced the public

key is prime ministerial material. How difficult challenge will the?

That is where Welsh Labour has some lessons. We have accommodated

conversations in the previous term and this one. We haven't had those

made -- major public spats. That is something the whole party the UK

needs to take on board. That is the responsibility from the leadership

to reach out and make sure that conversation can take place, that

isn't going to be any lack of space for that debate to happen. Equally,

the PLP have to respond in kind. Because of the prepared to respect

the mandate Jeremy has been renewed. They've got out debate in a

constructive and disciplined manner within the walls of our Labour Party

Suey present to the public a unified party that is serious about

returning to government and has answers to the problems Britain

faces. It isn't enough to simply say, the Tories are breaking the

country. We have to have a genuine alternative so people can believe in

it. The PLP, the group of Labour MPs, so

many of whom have been undermining, trying to oust Jeremy Corbyn as

leader, do they, should they now have to face reselection considering

there are about the changes but they have been so keen on undermining

Jeremy Corbyn a fresher team might be needed in parliament?

It is important we have a normal process. I'm not interested in

calling for deselection of Labour members of Parliament who have

fought and won campaigns to win their seas. The challenge is not how

we deselect our current groups of MPs, the challenge is how we find an

additional member to win a general election. We have to move on from

the debate, to draw a line and move forward and say how do we beat the

Tories? We've got lessons to learn. In Wales we've got lessons to teach

the rest of the party about what it is to have a unified government who

can deal with their differences and have a live unity of purpose. That

is what our party needs. Vaughan Gething, thank you very much

for your time. After 17 years in power,

the Welsh Government says it's in the middle

of a decade of delivery. This week it announced exactly

what it plans to deliver over But what's in its programme

for Government? Here it is, condensed

into two minutes. We want a stronger, fairer economy,

improved and reformed public services and a united,

connected and sustainable Wales. Taking Wales Forward sets out how

we will approach the task These are the policies the people

of Wales voted for and these Yes, there are difficult decisions

ahead and we will need to be innovative in our delivery

but we will stand by This programme for government gives

us what we need to tackle the major To make a tangible

difference to people's lives The Welsh Government have

published their programme for government and it is essentially

16 pages of rhetoric. They are talking about a

healthy and prosperous Wales with no idea of how they are

going to secure that. The implications of this are they

and not outting any targets down. It is hard to hold them to account,

to make sure we've got an effective opposition to make sure we

are effectively measuring how well Joining me now to pick the bones out

of those plans and tell he how they'd do things better

are Plaid's Sian Gwenllian, who's in Bangor, Caroline Jones

from Ukip and Nick Ramsay Thank you all three of you for

coming in. If I may start with Sian Gwenllian, you have been part of a

lots of these proposals because of your agreement with the Labour

Party. What did you make of them? The document is very disappointing.

I think that it lacks in the action points that are now needed, there

are no targets here. It is the how and what is what people are

thereafter. The second point I think the lack of talk about Europe is

quite apparent in this document. Taking the hard Brexit line the

government are taking now, it is a placing...

If you had input as a party into this document, these policies, why

didn't you make your voice heard? We have published our own programme

of opposition which is in direct contrast to this document. We agree

on the issues that need tackling that's what we are saying is we need

direct targets, we need to know but the timescales are, what the

milestones are. For example, with help. We agree we need to be

recruiting and training more doctors in Wales to improve the health

service. Our document talks about training and recruiting 1000

doctors. It goes on to explain we need to be investing in medical

education, including the setting up of a medical school in Bangor. The

Labour government doesn't go into that level of detail. That is one

example and a lot of that is true for the whole document. It is also

lacking in a vision for North Wales. Once again, we are seeing a document

that is talking about the relief road from the M4, a few roundabouts

for the A55. That is a North Wales Metro in their

plans. Let's bring in the other guests. Nick Ramsay, looking through

the headlines we have seen. Childcare, apprentices, schools,

drugs fund, care homes, the M4. It is difficult to say you are not keen

on the things they are proposing. We are keen on those things and

those headlines are great. The points just made as a valid one. It

is fine saying things that doing things is quite another. We have

been waiting now 17 years for the Labour government and we're not

getting the action. Yes, the North Wales Metro is a good idea but shall

we deliver the Southwest Metro first.

Where are the plans from the government? We have seen Plaid

Cymru's plans for opposition. There are plans there.

Where are the Conservative plans? We put them in our manifesto. We are

supportive of these areas such as the Metro, improving infrastructure,

a development bank. There is no detail as how to deliver them. To be

fair to the Labour Party perhaps the Giteau come down the line. We need

to see those pretty quickly because the people of Wales have waited 17

years. Ukip happy with this? It would be

difficult to disagree with any points on there because they are

positive points. It lacks substance. That is no substance in training and

recruitment. We need more doctors but we have known this for a long

period of time. Where this the action been before this? We need to

know how we're going to recruit doctors. How are we going to retain

them? There's an element of people who do their training in Cardiff and

then off they go. We don't see the benefit of the investment. What

would Ukip is my proposal be then? What we need to do is listen to the

Royal College of Nursing is and the doctors and the ABM, but Doctor's...

BMA. Yes. My plan would be to listen and

to have an look at everywhere we are failing. We need to advertise Wales

Assembly people want to stay. It is a question of conditions as well.

The doctors are saying it is not unusual for them to seek 80 patients

during one consultation period. That isn't giving value to the patient or

to the doctor. The doctors are stressed. Sian Gwenllian, one of the

things Carwyn Jones said was perhaps they would be less money because of

the fears he has over Brexit. You're not going to let off the hook with

that are you? Are you saying, that is nonsense.

About Brexit, the lack of leadership that has been shown by the Welsh

Labour government is disgraceful at this point. Is he right they will be

less money for these policies because of Brexit?

At this moment in time we don't really know. I assume they will be

less money. For agriculture, for example, I am afraid the party is

going to be shrinking. We need at this point in time to be standing up

for the best deal possible for Wales. I don't think the Welsh

Government is doing that. There are particular models that we should be

putting forward and starting the negotiation from that point. Like

what? We should be advocating members of a

single market. There are different models to that and we should be

exploring those and putting those forward. It seems to me they

accepted the hard Brexit. There is a Brexit committee meeting next week.

They seem to have reached a position which is a hard Brexit position

which is in line to what the Tories and Ukip are saying. It is they are

not in favour of membership of the single market which, to me, is not

in the best interests for Wales. They should be arguing and

negotiating from that point. Caroline Jones, Sian Gwenllian

referred to a a access to a single market rather than membership. Do

you see those two things as being different when it comes to the free

movement of labour? They are different. We want

membership... We want to deal with everyone. We want to do with

everyone in Europe. We feel we had any strong position to do so. We

have a strong economy at the moment. As has been said before... You can't

have that free access to that market unless you are also accepting free

movement of labour? There will be a tariff but I don't

think it'll be free movement. You are happy to have a tariff on Welsh

goods being exported? There will be a tariff but we will fight for a

lower tariff as possible. Nick, why do you think? We want

lower tariffs. You would be happy with Harris if that is an exchange

on restrictions on movement? Eyes rather we were in the single

market. But at this early stage we haven't had the negotiations yet. We

haven't had Article 50 invoked. It is for the government to play their

part in informing those negotiations. To be fair to the

First Minister, he has said he wants access to the single market. You

said you wanted full membership of the single market. That is different

to what your party in the Assembly has voted for.

We want access to the market. If it was possible I'd like is to be the

single market even though we are outside the EU. There are many

models on the table and it is for the negotiations to form verse. We

certainly need some form of access. We have to ensure cross-party group

involves Brexit years as well as remain to get the best possible deal

for Wales. What we want is the best possible deal for Wales but we can

get. We want the best negotiators possible. Would you be happy on this

new Brexit negotiating, to be talking on the same platform as

Ukip? Is used Plaid Cymru is the only

party now who are united around what we think is the best deal for Wales.

Ukip, I'm not sure what's Caroline is trying to save they come it

doesn't seem to me as if the Tories or Labour seem to have a particular

stance to start the negotiation on. We're going down a new route with no

time at all. and he said it is worse than under

Stalin! Welcome back - and we're joined now

by John Prescott, who's been coming to Labour Conferences

for more than 50 years. And our political panel,

Tom Newton-Dunn, Rachel Shabi John Prescott, welcome back to the

Sunday Politics and a Labour conference. In a much changed

Liverpool! I can't believe it. That looks amazing. Has the Labour Party

ever been at a low ahead in the past 50 is? It's an interesting question.

I hear everyone going back 50 years but we've always had fierce battles

in the Labour Party, whether it was nuclear or the left or the right, we

used to fight over the Treasurer's vote! There have always been those

strong battles. It has become more personal now, it is more abuse than

argument and we've got to move away from that. Do you share the fears of

your old colleague Neil Kinnock, that there might not be another

Labour government in his lifetime? Who was that? Neil Kinnock, former

leader of the Labour Party? When I heard him saying there will never be

another Labour government in his lifetime... Basically, Neil, you did

lose to elections and Michael foot lost that election. We lost with Ed

Miliband... There is no doubt he's got great experience of that but he

is wrong! I thought we would get to the answer! Is the Labour Party at a

very low ebb? It is, but I think you're absolutely right, it is a

great myth that in the past there weren't huge, passionate internal

debates. Under Wilson's leadership, there were problems all over the

place but he won for elections out of five, he always used to say. It

has become much more personal now with the social media thing going on

in that kind of raises it to a different temperature.

If it was accepted they could argue over policy, as was in the past and

as will be the case with the Conservatives over Brexit, then

there might be a way of working around this. As things stand at the

moment it is a completely nightmarish, circuitous debate where

the MPs slack him off and his supporters slack them off and it

gets nowhere. The danger for Labour is earlier in the programme we

talked about elections to the NEC and who will hold the balance of

power there and the battles coming of the argument over how to choose

the Shadow Cabinet, Labour can't afford another year of talking about

itself. No, that is right, and the public isn't remotely interested in

these very tedious internal machinations. Look, Jeremy Corbyn

has proved himself twice. There can be no clearer message that the party

really needs to put this behind them and focus on unifying. I think the

other great myth, we're talking about the myths of history and time

and the centre-right. The myth is that they have all the answers. They

clearly don't. They haven't been able to persuade their own selectors

of their own eligibility and they haven't been able to persuade the

general public that a right words shifting Labour Party is preferable

and desirable. So maybe it's time for them to think, you know what,

Jeremy Corbyn has won two leadership elections, he has caused the party

to be swelled, its ranks swelled and it's the largest party in Europe and

people are galvanised, motivated and energised in a way they haven't been

for so long. People have been apathetic about politics for so

long. May be that wing of the party has something to learn from Corbyn

rather than the other way around. I couldn't get Heidi Alexander to

answer this. Is there any doubt that Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour into the

2020 election? I think there is a small doubt. He could still be

toppled. Who would topple him? The unions. This massive force in Labour

politics, centre-left politics, which no one has come close to

talking about in the last few days, we have a huge election coming up

the after next for the Unite union. Len McCluskey is running again. If

he stands down, they have already lost the GMB and Unison are not fond

of him, if he does go it is curtains for him. It is about fundamental

change taking place. Everyone of us has got to think differently,

including me. They have all got to say for the party have said this

with their new members, we have a different way of doing things and we

want some of the old policies rehearsed and put forward again. The

changes, whether in the PLP, the trade unions or elsewhere, things

have changed, it's a big change coming to the Labour Party and thank

God. I remember arguing with Tony Blair whether we should call it new

Labour or old Labour and he wanted to call it new Labour and I said why

don't we call it Labour. There is a change in policy, they want

fundamental change, they are entitled to have it, he has won two

elections, why do we think of the revolutionary thought, he is our

leader until the next election, get on for the ride and fight the Tories

instead of fighting ourselves. There is one really good answer to that,

that is all well and good but you are 26% in the polls, an all-time

historic low that is where Corbyn is taking them. All too often we talk

about the polls. Terrible inconvenience! Let us go along this

road, see how we can do it, the PLP, let's just for the argument is about

the election of the Shadow Cabinet. The PLP voted against Shadow Cabinet

is only two or three years ago and now it wants them back. Quite right,

I support them, I've been party to them. For god sake, can get on with

fighting the Tories, back the leadership for the moment? I have to

say to Jeremy, talking about splits in part is, we have already

wondering, Momentum crazy things, argue the case for change. Electoral

College instead of one man, one vote. I've always fought for one man

one vote. That would be going backwards, would it not? It would

strengthen the PLP. We have to look at all of these fears and do a

proper conference as I advocate, but think about it first. We have ?3

members at Miliband came through and whacked that through special

conference. We need to think about how we've done things in the past,

trade unions, members of Parliament, PLP members, they want change, they

are entitled democratically to see if we will listen to them at

implement it democratically. Jeremy must show leadership. What does

showing leadership mean? There are two things. The election of a Shadow

Cabinet if you want to do that. Elected by whom? That could be the

PLP to begin with. We can't wait until the conference comes along,

11th of October. These things are constitutional. In the coming

elections he is the leader, he could put in people he feels he has to

have their in the Shadow Cabinet, because it's all about power

distribution, and give the PLP the right to put some people in and then

look at the issues of whether other members should be involved. That's

the long-term. At the moment a team ready for fighting Theresa May, she

will be worse than Thatcher. We are here in the great traditional Labour

city, the heartland of traditional Labour support. Does anybody in

Liverpool care how the Shadow Cabinet is selected? I doubt meet

people just outside this building are talking about that. They will be

because they are journalists! I don't even think they will be! In a

way we are contradicting ourselves because we are saying we should not

spend time talking about it and we are all talking about it. The

so-called rebels misjudged this completely in terms of timing, when

they all resigned on the Sunday after the referendum, they didn't

ask, do we have a candidate? What happens if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't go

as a result of this and have they got themes that can unite the rest

of the membership, or a new membership could to? We keep talking

about the voters. Let's not talk about the Shadow Cabinet because

that is an insider conversation. About the voters, we don't know

whether Jeremy Corbyn is electable or not. We don't know how he would

fare with a united team behind him with over 500,000 members

canvassing, campaigning, talking about his policies. We don't know if

for this time, in a time when we are dealing with massive inequalities,

when we're dealing with rampant... Just, food banks, child poverty and

things that should not happen in one of the wealthiest countries in the

world. We don't know whether what the Labour Party proposes under

Jeremy Corbyn will resonate. We will have a chance to find out. One of

the things that is interesting is that clearly the membership of the

party has changed dramatically, even in the past 12 months. Will the

Parliamentary party change as a result of that? There has been talk

of the and reselection. This is what Mr Corbyn had to say this morning.

The relationship between an MP and their

It's not necessarily all the policy tick

It's also the relationships, the community, the

effectiveness of representation and all those issues.

Let's have a democratic discussion and I think the vast

majority of MPs will have no problem whatsoever.

Is it's not inevitable, given that you've talked about it yourself,

this huge change taking place in the Labour Party membership, that the

Parliamentary party will have to change to reflect that? To some

extent the PLP is the creation of the previous membership, not the new

membership. That is right. Some people were opposing him within

weeks when he was elected and pulling out of the cabinet and I

don't think they will change. They might want to stay on the

backbenches, they don't want to divide the party so they will fight

for the party from the backbenches. The greater majority of those in the

PLP they didn't want to go on this road of no confidence, that was one

when they were kidded into believing that if they had a begin of no

confidence he would pick of the revolver and shoot himself. It never

was going to happen. So let's say, keep your view, if you don't want to

get involved, fine, but now you are required to take account, looking at

the policy issues between us rather than fighting ourselves. He has got

to show leadership. He is the man in charge of it. That's why the

election of the Capanagh has become more important inside the PLP. It's

a struggle, isn't it? The PLP produced a whole package of things

with electoral reform. Let's get on with that, put it on the side, get a

team ready for October the 11th to fight the Tories are using our

energy and fighting the Tories and I think the majority of MPs are on

board for that. Will Rachel get to see her united Labour Party behind

Mr Corbyn going into another election? No. This is it. We have to

look at the facts on the table, the Labour Party, the PLP and the people

in the country, those people who voted for Owen Smith, they are so

far apart ideologically, the hard left and there is the Blairite right

and those two will never unite and it's all very well John saying so

and I admire your optimism but you and I know it will not happen. It

has got to for our people. The party and our country wants it. If your

press get onside instead of being so vicious about Corbyn, not just your

paper, but most of them have had a kind of hostility that has not been

seen before. It has taken ten minutes but eventually we got there.

Perhaps we will wait and see. The ideological gap is as big as the

80s, partly because on both sides there is a complete lack of clarity

about what they believe in and where they want to go. The early 80s, Roy

Jenkins knew exactly what there were four and so did Tony Benn. There is

that clarity of vision now. It is all blurred and muddled so there is

a problem and an opportunity there. Second, I think the crunch point in

this Parliament for Jeremy Corbyn, not now obviously, but if and when

the Tories have a crisis over Brexit and if at that point Labour are 25,

20 6% in the polls he will have a crisis. Let me interrupt you because

the really big political event yesterday wasn't what was happening

here in Liverpool, it happened on BBC One on your TV screens. It was

Ed Balls in Strictly. Let's see how that went.

Dancing the waltz, Ed Balls and Katya Jones.

There we go, glitter balls on strictly. I bet you wish you had

been there. I turned it down some time ago. So did I! What was the

woman who did it? Edwina. BBC journalists, the public like people

like that and supported in many ways but they fall out because they can't

dance. That is a drawback. They love them for not dancing, they love the

fact they are trying. But they didn't win. I love dancing myself,

but frankly you've got to have some movement. There has got to be a flow

in the body and the feel of the music. I think you've got it there!

You want to do it, I can tell! Doesn't he? He wants to do it. That

is not dancing, it's about the movement of the body, the music and

the spirit. You should be a judge on the programme. I give it eight!

Today talking about Jeremy Corbyn, they love this, it humanises it. You

can see a petition to get him on. I can see it happening. We may have to

speak to compliance about it! Anyway, it has become a part of the

Constitution that you and I have to meet at a Labour conference, so it's

good to see you. Two comedians together. One day we might get a

proper job! I'll be back next week

at the Conservative Party Conference in Birmingham

with more Sunday Politics. And I'll be back tomorrow

with the Daily Politics at 11am over on BBC Two with more

from the Labour Conference We will bring you what is happening

in the Labour conference and the Shadow Chancellor's speech too.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.