11/12/2016 Sunday Politics Wales

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

Later in the programme. and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

Leanne Wood live, on where she thinks Labour

is going wrong on Brexit, and will the Metro really breathe

think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

something about British politics today, that this is the most

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

that want to thwart the will of the people,

go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

out of the Government by opposition day motions.

I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

you for what you are doing, party members around

the country saying thank you for what you are doing

and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

and we want to see a Conservative government being

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

how her stance is going down with the voters.

If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

She should stick for what she believes in,

but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

Although now we know not everyone is invited.

And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

for an early Christmas present at this week's

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

fewer voters than the reported number of local

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

under his leadership, including a by-election win

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now

in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be

able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are

heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking

about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying

off message, again, and the protestors attempting

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

Hello, and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

The Metro has been hailed as a shot in the arm for the economy,

but how long will it be before the effects are felt on the ground?

And the Institute of Welsh Affairs has spent nearly 30 years thinking

Its new director will be here to tell us about her

But first, this morning Plaid Cymru has accused Labour of giving

the Prime Minister what it's calling a blank cheque on Brexit.

The party says Labour divisions mean it cannot scrutinise

But what does Plaid mean by that and what would it do instead?

Well, the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, is here with me now.

Thank you for coming in. What do you mean, they're handing Theresa May a

blank cheque on Brexit? We have no idea what the UK Government's plans

are for Brexit. We do not know what it would mean for the Welsh economy,

for jobs, for the agricultural industry, for things like workers'

rights, human rights, protection for the environment. And until we have

some clarity, and what I want to be satisfied of, is that Wales and

people in Wales are not going to be significantly worse off as a result

of the kind of Brexit that is negotiated, we're not prepared to

give them a blank cheque and we do not think Labour should either.

Presumably nobody wants to see Wales worse off as a result of Brexit, but

then it is just a matter of, how long can we have this idea from

Theresa May, she has said she will not discuss her negotiating

position, and Labour have said they want to see a plan. That seems fair

enough. We want to be able to scrutinise that plan. So does

Labour. You're criticising them, but they have asked for a plan. C what

they come up with. So far we have seen no evidence that they have any

kind of a plan. They are rudderless, and frankly Lee Briers well. We have

no sense of clarity from Labour about the kind of Brexit that they

want to see. Some are saying that they want more of a hard Brexit,

others are softer Brexit, someone continuation of movement of people.

Others are concerned that that would play into the hands of Ukip. Unless

we have got clarity and one single position coming from the main

opposition in Westminster, then frankly they are not doing their

job. That is your attack on Labour. Fine. What will we see from Plaid

Cymru? You have said that you want to see membership of the single

market retained, even if that means no curbs on immigration, people can

come as they wish from the EU, is that still what you want to see? Let

us be clear, the question of immigration was not on the ballot

paper. The question on the ballot paper was, do you want to remain a

relief the European Union? I accept some people voted to leave because

they were chiefly concerned about immigration. But if you look at the

figures, especially as they pertain to Wales, then immigration is not a

great problem. So what I am not prepared to do is pander to Ukip by

pretending that immigration is this huge problem, when only 2.6% of the

Welsh population come from the European Union. So what exactly are

we trying to curb here? So you are happy here, happy that they would

not be any curbs on immigration from the EU? Are you happy with that post

Brexit? Is that what you're calling for? You want clarity from Labour,

let us have clarity from Plaid Cymru. I want to tackle the issues

that people face, low wages, poor housing. I want to stay on

immigration. People are blaming immigration for the effect of cuts

from Westminster. What is Plaid Cymru's policy? It is about tackling

the problems that people have, not perceived problems, real problems.

So you do not need to tackle immigration? I am saying there is a

lack of clarity from Plaid Cymru. I am saying to you immigration is not

a problem. I am saying to you that if we could immigration then there

is a very real risk to some industries and some places. The

tourism industry, for example, the NHS relies on Labour from overseas.

There is much that we need to do in terms of protecting the Welsh

language, and Welsh culture and Welsh communities, but what we are

talking about in terms of the immigration debate is not touching

any of the real immigration issues that Wales faces. We're talking all

the time about the perceived problems, and I am not prepared to

follow what Ukip say, that immigration is this massive problem,

when the facts do not bear that out when you look at the figures as they

pertain to Wales. If that is the case and if immigration is not a

problem, why is Plaid Cymru and year spokesman calling for a Norwegian

stale model we can only go there, as he says, if you have got a job?

Because people voted to leave the European Union and we recognise the

vote, even though we may not like it. If you do not think it is a

problem, why are you seeking to address it? People voted to leave,

so what we do know is we discuss the best kind of Brexit possible for

Wales. The least worst option, if you like. We have come up with the

Norwegian model is the least harmful model for Wales. That would enable

us to retain an element of freedom of movement. Yes, we could be a bit

more picky about that, but it would enable us to protect the Welsh NHS

and the sustainability of some of those industries that currently rely

on Labour from overseas. What you understand the Norwegian model to

be? Adam Price has said that you have to have a pre-identified job

before you can go to normally, but that is not the case according to

the Foreign Office, and websites advising people on moving to

normally, you can go there for six months to look for work. So what you

want? That people can come to Wales for six months, or that they have to

have a job? I want maximum flexibility, my chief concern is the

Welsh economy. As with having that element of flexibility by allowing

people to come per six months to try out a job or a look for a job before

the permanently reside, I would be open to that kind of thing. At the

end of the day, what is really important if the 200,000 jobs that

are reliant on the single market. Those industries that are reliant on

cooperation with other European countries. I want to hang on to as

much of that as we possibly can to protect those jobs. It has been a

momentous year in politics, I want to book ahead no to next year. And

to the council elections. You have had a good few sets of council

elections in the past, not so good last time, what will you be hoping

for? We will be looking to establish representation in new areas. We will

be looking to fieldwork candidates and we ever have before and we will

be looking to win more council seats than we ever have before. We are in

quite a strong and confident place to be able to do that. We are

obviously running a number of councils and there have been

councils that we have run in the past that we would be looking to be

in the driving seat of again. We also are very keen to break through

to new ground. And to give people a Plaid Cymru representative in some

of those communities that might not have seen them. Are those previous

councils targets you are aiming for? I'm trying to see what your ambition

is. I have outlined by ambition. Is that a target? I have outlined you

what we want to achieve. We go into that in a good position. I am not

going to name places as targets for anime particular seats or even

councillors. I am not getting into it. We want to keep the seats and we

have got we have excellent councillors throughout the country

and the running of the councils that we run, we want to gain on ground in

those places. So we will not get much from you in targets. In the

spring next year, it will be five years since she became leader of

Plaid Cymru. How long do you think you will remain as leader? How long

is a piece of string? How long would you like it to be? That is a matter

for the membership of Plaid Cymru. Thank you very much for your time

this morning. Now, we've heard a lot

about the South Wales Metro. It's meant to be a shot

in the arm for the economy, we shouldn't rely on it bringing

all that's been promised. This week the First Minister

went to Brussels So how much of a difference

will it make? We sent Cemlyn Davies

on a trip to find out. It's an ambitious vision to connect

communities across South The Metro network could consist

of trams, buses and trains, running from Monmouth to Maesteg,

from Bargoed to Barry. There are plans for new stations,

new routes, new opportunities. In Treharris, a typical Valleys

town, there's impatience Just 17 miles from Cardiff

and a stone's throw from the A470, The buses, they don't go

very often around here. The train station, you have

to walk quite a way to it, so it would be nice,

yes, it would be great. I haven't heard about it,

though, yet, at the moment. The Metro would be great,

it would be for commuting to Cardiff, so, yes,

I think it is a great idea. This man runs a cafe

in the town centre. He told me many people have

had to leave Treharris because of the poor

commuter connections. But is he worried improved links

could also put customers away? We would like to think that

with the Metro system, or somewhere where we had a stop

positioned in Treharris, that it would have the reverse effect,

where it would actually bring people into the village, as opposed

to people leaving the village And that would then

boost the economy? Hopefully that would

benefit the local economy, us as is a business,

right in the heart of the village, hopefully it would actually boost

the area in general, which personally I think

is much needed. Treharris did used to have a train

station, and this is where it was. In this area here where

the playground is, this Ernie used to catch the train

here himself to get to work before He and his co-counsellor believe

the metro would boost this area. I do spend quite a bit

of time in Manchester, and the Metro system there links

in all the outlying Something like that would be

a massive boost to South East Wales. It is a win-win situation

for everybody, isn't it? If you open up these little towns

again so that people can come there, and you get the little individual

shops, a fishing tackle shop is only in Treharris,

where everybody comes for that, or there is a great fashion shop

in Nelson, and everybody goes. So if you open that up,

you would not have... You wouldn't have the high

street stores, obviously, but you would have that individual

business, and that makes for an interesting and a pleasant

little town to visit as well. In Treharris they're

clearly confident the metro But what is the view

further down the line Whether it is likely will depend

on whether there is anything There is a requirement to build

products, destinations, interesting things to do and see

that the railway enables, not to expect the railway

or tramline or a light rail, whatever it is, to in and of itself

transform these places. I would certainly think

places north of the M4, will have an easier time of it

when the railway is there, But it will require complementary

investment in skills and training, With a potential final price tag

of several billion pounds, this project is unlike any other

the Welsh government It is a huge challenge

for civil servants, told me things are progressing well,

and the procurement The initial work, costing

more than ?700 million, will focus on the Valleys lines,

with the first Metro services up However, it could take many more

years for this vision The problem with that is,

the people Treharris do not The management of this process,

expectations management, between this big shiny Metro

and the reality of what will be an incremental, long-term

development of a very interesting mix of technologies, that is quite

a difficult thing to manage. People's expectations,

against the reality of what is The Metro was seen as key

to the success of the ?1.2 billion Cardiff City deal between the Welsh

and UK governments under A big chunk of that money has been

earmarked for the scheme and, later this week, a commission set up

as part of the agreement will publish a report outlining how

else the region's economy Well, we put some of those points

to the Economy Secretary Ken Skates, My colleague Dan Davies caught up

with him at the Assembly and began by asking him when exactly the first

Metro services would begin. By 2023, we hope to have Metro

services up and running, the Metro franchise is part

of the Wales and Borders franchise, which will commence in 2018,

we hope to have diggers in the ground towards the end

of this decade, and the Metro will be a transformational piece

of infrastructure for South Wales. We have been speaking

to an economist who says that the Metro itself is not

going to be enough to regenerate

Valleys communities. Do you agree with that?

What else needs to be done? There are a number of essential

factors that determine the economic

success of a region. One is infrastructure -

in this regard the Metro is absolutely crucial

in transforming the Valleys. We have to people equipped

with the right skills to be able to feel economic growth,

and that is why the Valleys task force is looking at how we can

improve the skills base But in itself it is

a transformational piece This will connect many communities

that are currently feeling quite isolated and disconnected

from the capital. I have been very clear all along

that the Metro should primarily It should not be seen

as a Cardiff-centric And for that reason I said early

on in my appointment that the headquarters for Transport

for Wales should be located Isn't there a danger that

if you make it easier for people to get to Cardiff you just

suck all the economic activity into Cardiff,

and other places, Conversely, it actually

makes it easier to get investment into the Valleys,

and that is why you have to ensure the skills

are there within the Valleys We will see more people

travelling into the capital, but we would hope to see more

investment travelling For that reason, we are going to be

investing very heavily in the skills base of those Valleys communities,

by targeting some of our apprenticeship programmes at making

sure that the skills levels within those communities that have

felt this advantage, that have felt disconnected,

get the skills and the opportunities What is your view on subsidising

tickets to incentivise people to get on board by making tickets

as cheap as possible? What we have learned from bus travel

actually is that it can We have had the youth

concessionary fares, concessionary fares for older people

as well, and it is absolutely essential that

if we're going to challenge the culture of using private

vehicles, using cars, that we do incentivise

where possible alternative means So I am open-minded as to the use

of concessionary fares to make sure that we get as many people

as possible using alternative forms of transport other

than private cars. Now, the Institute of Welsh Affairs

has been bringing forward ideas on how to improve public policy

in Wales for nearly 30 years. It has a new director,

Auriol Miller, who no doubt to take the organisation forward,

and she joins me now. 30 years. Interestingly, the metro

was an idea from Welsh affairs. That is right. People describe us as

opening up the tip of the arrow through you can have a conversation

which is not always otherwise happening. Spotting an idea, getting

experts around the table and bringing people together to talk

about something which long-term can make a significant change. One of

the problems you might face in Wales generally is that arena in which you

have a discussion is lacking. We often say there is not enough

discussion in the media, for example, about public policy as you

would have in Whitehall. Is that a problem? That is very reason why we

were set up almost years ago, we celebrate the anniversary next week.

That is space for independent power and debate about the things that

really matter to people in Wales. The thing about media is really

important, reflecting back, the BBC trust said recently that only 1.4%

of money is spent on representing issues of relevance to Wales and

Wales back to itself. So we are really trying to both hold the ring

for those conversations and enable new and different conversations to

happen. How do you have those new conversations? Where will they

happen? If people are not watching programmes like this or reading the

newspapers, where will they receive that information? Where is the

challenge therefore you? It is about ideas and where they come from. That

is what I bring to the table, I have almost 20 years of International

Development Secretary on. My contacts are global. If we are

looking at, we are people doing this really well, where can we learn

from? I will get out my phone and think about who I know, for a start.

But having worked in Wales for the last three years having run a

membership organisation that reaches right across the country, I have

contacts there as well. We want to look at things from a different

perspective. C we can put new and different combinations of ideas

together and try to understand what people's concerns really are. What

bothers you most at the moment? What would you most like to change a

challenge? What we are really working on is a fantastic starting

point, the energy project that we have, looking at an alternative

economic strategy for Wales based on renewable energy. We will be

publishing a piece on energy demand, in relation to one of our case

studies. Over the next years and years and years, Brexit is going to

be the big policy, politics, whatever you want to call it, issue.

What will you be doing there? Of course it is. Brexit we are already

asking our members what it is we should be doing, we need to be

rooted from the bottom up. We have 1000 or so members right across the

country and I will be looking to grow that membership even more. With

Brexit, nobody knows what is going to happen, do they? It is a great

big question mark out there. It also cannot get in the way of the

delivery of things that needs to happen at the moment. But with the

IW aid, we do not look at that, we look much further down the line --

IWA. But do you think without any details on Brexit, just a vacuum,

the discussion goes over all of the old ground and people become more

resolutely in favour of Remain or pro-Brexit, and it does not help

things at all? There is a danger of that, but that does not mean that

you sit back and do nothing. As an independent think-tank, we say, let

us look at things from a number of different sides and try to

understand what people's concerns are. We heard Leanne Wood talking

about that before, saying that immigration is not really the issue,

in her opinion. From our side of things, what are the issues that are

going to make a difference? With the Wales bill going through at the

moment, that is one thing of concern to us. We do not want a piecemeal

devolution settlement any more, and I think that Brexit has a risk

cutting right across that. So for as it is about making sure things

happen in a way that is sensible and reasonable. Thank you for coming in.

Good luck with it and good luck with the celebrations for next year for

your 30th. Don't forget you follow

all the latest on twitter - Now, Foreign Secretary

Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -

yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia

of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"

in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention

of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime

minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon

was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,

the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply

we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,

and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over

the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing

in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people

to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way

it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left

people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia

and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been

in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,

so how's he been received? Our security correspondent

Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson

was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time

since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary

visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of

it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a

tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I

have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss

about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,

I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage

limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of

smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they

are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten

and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is

in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few

minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting

the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him

according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their

security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they

are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that

has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris

Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's

supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have

had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr

Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is

in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words

Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running

up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by

some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the

gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic

mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will

reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in

building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities

that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15

hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven

warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain

withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and

off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.

In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,

but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big

emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties

with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,

I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a

large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with

Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the

conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you

very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr

Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there

has just given us a really important development, or explained what the

British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big

time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is

fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this

is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's

role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the

Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in

a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about

it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason

that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are

pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level

power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.

What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big

story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we

are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,

most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights

country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,

unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is

the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty

unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits

open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will

go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be

involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe

and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our

knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever

they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that

is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are

the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are

leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am

trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got

yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of

Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word

like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?

I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back

in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,

the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in

the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S

one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in

the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because

it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that

these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what

FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has

been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't

have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it

needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be

turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and

the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.

You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the

Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that

the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a

speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.