15/03/2016 Tuesday in Parliament


15/03/2016

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Hello and welcome to Tuesday in parliament, our look at the best

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of the day in the Commons and the Lords.

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On this programme, President Putin announces a withdrawal of Russian

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forces from Syria.

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The news gets a cautious welcome from MPs.

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It needs to be carried through, in particular,

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if it is going to support the ceasefire and de-escalate

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tensions.

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This is not a recipe for enhancing stability and predictability

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on the international scene.

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Infringement of liberty?

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Or sensible surveillance?

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MPs debate the controversial Investigatory Powers Bill.

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An internet connection record is a record of what internet

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services a device or a person has connected to, not every web page

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they have visited.

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MPs hear powerful evidence about how meningitis can strike a child.

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From my son showing his first symptom of being sick at 6.30am

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on the morning, this was 4.30pm on the teatime he lost

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consciousness that quick.

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But first, the Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, has said Russia

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should be judged by actions not words in the wake of the surprise

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announcement by President Putin of a withdraw of Russian

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forces from Syria.

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Russian military pictures showed a group of Russian fighter aircraft

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taking off from an air base in Syria and apparently returning home.

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The Russian military campaign in Syria had begun back in September

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and was aimed at bolstering the position of the Syrian

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President, Bashar al-Assad.

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Following President Putin's announcement on Monday evening,

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Russia's Defence Ministry said some air strikes will continue

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in the country.

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In the Commons, the Foreign Secretary said President Putin's

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motives were unknowable.

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We do not yet have any independent evidence to verify Russia's claims

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that military withdrawals have already begun.

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We are monitoring developments closely.

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It will be important to judge Russia by its actions.

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It is worth remembering that Russia announced withdrawal of forces

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in Ukraine which later turned out merely to be routine

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rotation of forces.

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Now is the time for all parties to focus on political negotiations

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which resumed yesterday in Geneva.

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Because only a political transition away from Assad's rule,

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to a Government representative of all Syrians, will deliver

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the peace Syrians so desperately need and so ardently desire.

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Yesterday's announcement of the withdrawal of Russian forces

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will be cautiously welcomed by all of us but I agree

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with the Foreign Secretary that it needs to be carried through,

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in particular, if it is going to support the ceasefire

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and de-escalate tensions.

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Does he agree that a full withdrawal would improve the confidence

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of opposition forces in the ceasefire and help to ensure

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their full participation in the peace process?

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The intervention by Russia in Syria was a surprise to the West and this

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withdrawal, if it's genuine, is also a surprise.

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Russia's interventions have been unhelpful, but influential.

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Can my right honourable friend advise me what steps we can

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and we are taking with our allies to stop Russia setting

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the agenda in Syria?

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Unfortunately, Russia is a state in which all power is concentrated

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in the hands of one man.

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There is not even a politbureau anymore.

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A single man.

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Decisions are made, apparently, arbitrarily, without any advance

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signalling and as we are now seeing can be unmade just as quickly.

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This is not a recipe for enhancing stability and predictability

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on the international scene.

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It makes the world a more dangerous place, not a less dangerous place.

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In seeking further clarity on this deeply cynical announcement,

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can he, or his US allies, clarify if the Russian Government

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have set out any conditions linked to their withdrawal

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that would negatively impact on the political negotiations?

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And given the tens of thousands of incredibly vulnerable Syrians

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we know exist up and down the country is it not time to look

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again at a NATO-backed no bombing zone particularly along the border

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with Turkey to protect civilians?

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The actual threat to the peace process comes from across the border

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in Turkey which is no longer led by a constructive and rationale

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partner in the process and the actions of President Erdogan

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should be giving all of us the gravest concern as he presides

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over a disintegrating democracy and a war on part of his own people.

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It is almost five years to the day since the uprising against Assad.

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There have been hundreds of thousands of people killed,

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11 million displaced, 80% of Syria's children have been

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damaged by the civil conflict.

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The House debated these issues two weeks ago,

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there was a huge amount of scepticism across the chamber

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about the ceasefire.

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The ceasefire, although there have been significant breaches,

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has resulted in a huge diminution of violence.

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It is the only ceasefire we have got.

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Following on from the question from the chairman of

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the Select Committee, is it not the most credible

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explanation for the Russian announcement, is it's

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going to pressurise the Assad regime into taking a more flexible attitude

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in the peace talks?

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Given Russia's past history over the last 30 years of changing horses

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at the last moment in order to seek a different outcome would he now be

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advising President Assad to double his bodyguard?

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Well, the relationship between President Assad

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and President Putin is a subject of great speculation among

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colleagues on the ISSG circuit I can tell my honourable friend but I am

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clear that the situation is the same as it has always been and I have

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said it in this House before.

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President Putin could have ended all this years ago by a single phone

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call to President Assad offering him some fraternal advice

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about his future health and well-being.

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Philip Hammond.

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The Russian President's announcement of a military withdrawal was also

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looked at in the House of Lords.

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My Lords, isn't it necessary to retain a sense of realism

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about these matters, not least because Mr Putin has

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achieved all of his strategic objectives?

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He managed to buttress the Assad regime, at least for the moment,

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as has already been pointed out, he has retained the military base

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at Latakia and the Port of Tasis and there can be no settlement

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of the Syrian question without the endorsement of Russia.

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It may not be game set and match to Mr Putin,

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but it's most certainly game and set.

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My Lords, I can only agree with a great deal of what the noble

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Lord has said.

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But one cannot at the same time help observing that Russia's stated aims

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and its actions in Syria have been at odds with one another and it

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in a stronger position or a weaker position.

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The main opposition parties have refused to give their backing

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to new surveillance powers for the security services,

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unless the Government makes some substantial changes.

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Labour said the investigatory powers bill had significant weaknesses,

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while the SNP condemned one measure as fantastically intrusive.

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But the Home Secretary, Theresa May, called the Bill world leading

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legislation, which, for the first time, ensured that judges approved

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interception warrants signed by ministers.

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And Mrs May said that thanks to the numerous reports

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and inquiries, the original Bill had been much improved.

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Today terrorists and criminals are operating online with a reach

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and scale that never existed before.

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They're exploiting the technological benefits of the modern age

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for their own twisted ends and they will continue to do

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so as long as it gives them a perceived advantage.

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We must ensure that those charged with keeping us safe are able

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to keep pace.

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She may have seen a letter in today's Guardian from a large

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number of lawyers which suggested that this legislation was intended

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to give generalised access to electronic communications content.

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Does she agree with me that that is the very thing which this

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bill does not actually do at all?

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And that the double lock mechanism is there as an assurance

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that it doesn't happen?

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My right honourable friend is absolutely right.

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The point about this bill is that it will only be possible to access,

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to intercept communications under this dual authority,

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this double lock put into place and it is not the case

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that the authorities are looking for a generalised access

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to the contents of communications.

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Theresa May turned to one of the more controversial measures.

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The only new power in the bill is the ability to require

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communication service providers to retain internet connection

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records, when served with a notice issued by the Secretary of State

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and after consultation with the provider in question.

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And I want to be quite clear and reiterate what I said earlier,

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that internet connection records do not provide access to a person's

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full web browsing history.

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An internet connection record is a record of what internet

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services a device or a person has connected to, not every web page

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they have visited.

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The time has come for this House to lay politics aside and find that

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point of balance between privacy and security in the digital age that

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can command broad public support.

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We on these benches have worked hard to uncover the truth about some

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of the dark chapters in our country's past,

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precisely so that we can learn from them and make this country

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fairer for those coming after us.

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The Scottish National Party cannot give this bill our full support.

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We intend to join forces with others in this House to have this bill

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as extensively amended as possible.

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Today we shall be abstaining but if the bill is not amended

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to our satisfaction, we reserve the right to vote

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against it at a later stage.

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The service providers will be required to keep records of every

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communication that takes place on their networks and potentially

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every click and swipe where there is an exchange of data

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between your device and a remote server.

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It's the equivalent of in the days of steaming open letters of someone

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somewhere keeping every front cover of every envelope across the whole

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country in some warehouse somewhere stored for a 12 full months.

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It didn't happen then and it shouldn't happen now.

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The implication of this, Mr Speaker, is very big indeed.

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It is that the Government believes as a matter of principle that every

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innocent act of communication online must leave a trace for future

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possible interrogation by the state.

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This bill or something like it is absolutely necessary.

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It replaces 66-plus other pieces of statutory mechanism so we have

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got to have in the interests of transparency something to put

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in its place.

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But it grants sweeping powers, in my view, so far, insufficient

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safeguards, and not enough consideration for privacy.

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There is a fundamental challenge at the heart of this legislation

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between the idea that it is possible to separate out somebody's contact

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online from their content.

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It's a definition that many of the internet companies have

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raised and said there is a concern with and it's a definition that

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as yet this legislation has not grappled with.

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Let's have no illusions, this is retaining information

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for that period of time of those, the overwhelming majority needless

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to say, who are in no way under suspicion of any criminal

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activity at all.

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Is that desirable?

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Does anyone really believe that will help the fight against terrorism?

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The debate on the Investigatory Powers Bill.

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You're watching our round-up of the day in the Commons

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and the Lords.

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Still to come:

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Why do so many people get sent to jail in the United Kingdom?

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The parents of children affected by meningitis B have told MPs

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a vaccine for the disease should be extended to all UK children up

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to the age of 11.

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Babies born after July 2015 are routinely given the vaccine.

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The Government's Advisory Committee says offering it to more children

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would not be cost-effective for the NHS.

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More than 823,000 people have signed a petition calling

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for the immunisation programme to be widened.

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It was set up by a father after one of his daughters was refused

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the vaccine on the grounds of age.

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What price do you put on a child's life, at the end of the day?

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You know, these are children's lives that we're talking about.

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We are a modern country, not a Third World country.

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We have got a vaccine out there.

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We should be using it.

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I don't see how you can afford not to vaccinate people.

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And survivors, you know, have life-changing disabilities

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that, if you are caring for those children over the course

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of a lifetime, the amputations, brain damage...

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The cost to the Government and to the taxpayer runs

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into millions of pounds for those children.

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They average around 3 million in a lifetime for each child.

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And, I think, a lot of times, they weigh it up against the deaths

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of meningitis and they say it is such a small number,

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but that is survivors.

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Can I just ask how this is monitored?

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There is only 30 deaths, they are tragic, but there

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is 470 survivors.

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That is worse because their lives are completely changed and,

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as a society, we have to support them for the rest of their life.

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That has got to be worse, whereas, if you spend ?75,

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all that anguish, the heartache, that is all gone, and the Government

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will also save millions at the end of the day.

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And he stressed the need for faster diagnosis.

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If you can get on it quickly then the child gets less damage,

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because that is really what it comes down to.

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If it is not going to kill instantly, it is going to maim.

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It is going to damage.

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You never walk away with nothing.

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You're never going to walk away with a scar left by it,

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so you could be talking fingers, toes, and if it is left for a long

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time, legs, arms...

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It is literally time, is what you are losing.

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It really equates to what you lose in your life later on,

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if you keep your life.

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So it really is...

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Speed is everything.

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Mr Burdett also criticised what he said was a "rotating door"

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mentality in the NHS which had seen their daughter,

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Faye, sent home.

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A general antibiotic, it would have slowed it.

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It would have given her a chance.

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But she did not even give her anything.

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That is where it falls apart.

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Like you say, even if we had gone back at 1am, and she would have

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already had a dose of antibiotics, it would have given her another

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small chance, but it was missed.

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That opportunity was missed.

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And, I mean, for us, and certainly for me,

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you can never forget that.

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Cos them seven hours, we basically sat with her

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while she was getting worse.

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And, as far as we were concerned, three doctors had looked

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at her and we'd been sent home.

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A former rugby star was among the witnesses - Matt

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Dawson's son survived.

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Sammy went to Chelsea and Westminster and,

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because he had a strain of W135, which is a very

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rare strain, indeed...

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But it was obvious it was meningitis, but they couldn't

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diagnose it as meningitis, but they dealt with it

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there and then as if it was, so, I mean, along those lines,

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and it could well have been the difference.

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We were so lucky with Mason.

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I mean, obviously, he lost his life, but from the second we walked

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through the GP's door, she was brilliant.

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"I recognise it as meningitis."

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She gave him the antibiotics, but, sadly, from showing his first

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symptom of being sick at 6:30am, this was 4:30pm at tea-time,

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he lost consciousness.

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That was how quick...

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And I just wanted to highlight the fact that, yeah,

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the rash is very important, and obviously promote that, but,

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my son, from the second became ill until he passed away,

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he never had one spot.

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Greater awareness of the disease, the witnesses agreed, was crucial.

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From a parent's perspective, very much, I will put my hand up

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as ignorant, I remember holding Sammy's hand

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when he was going through all the things that have been discussed

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already, and it being freezing cold.

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Really, really cold, and yet, I'm seeing him sweat.

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I just remember it, thinking, "That's really odd."

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Whereas, everywhere I read, now, there are the symptoms,

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because now I am reading it, there are the symptoms

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and that is one of them.

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You know, that would have been four hours' difference, possibly.

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We diagnosed the symptoms to every health professional

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without realising what we were diagnosing.

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You, as parents, were not aware what to look out for?

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No.

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No.

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We were told that it was meningitis, but she has had a vaccination

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but she had had a vaccination for that.

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They said, no, we think it is B.

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We did not know there was a B.

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The debate over meningitis.

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The Government has been told by peers it can't tackle

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re-offending by prisoners while jails remain overcrowded.

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Figures released last week show that the UK has the largest prison

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population in the European Union.

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Asking a question in the Lords about prison reform,

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the Lib Dem Lord Beith, former chair of the Commons Justice Committee,

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said three recent reports had shown how difficult

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it was for rehabilitation targets to be reached in the light of cuts

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in numbers of prison staff.

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And isn't it time that ministers began to look, alongside

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the rehabilitation policy, at why we imprison a larger

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proportion of our population than any other western European

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country, thus committing huge amounts of taxpayers' money

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to a system which does not reduce reoffending enough?

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The Government is, of course, always anxious to find out why

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we are imprisoning so many people.

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The imprisoning, of course, done by judges, not by Government.

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However, we believe that the way to reduce the prison population

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is to tackle the question of reoffending.

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Is it not true that there are simply insufficient staff in our prisons

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to escort prisoners, for example, to needed mental health

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appointments, or for the classes to which they are supposed to be

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booked, or, indeed, to the exercise and other facilities that

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would enable them to go along the way to rehabilitation?

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How will that rehabilitation take place?

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In the last year, we have recruited 2,250 new prison officers,

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a net increase of 440.

0:19:570:20:00

We are continuing to recruit at that rate.

0:20:000:20:03

Is it not right that the reason that sentences are longer

0:20:030:20:10

than they have ever been, the inflation, is caused by action

0:20:100:20:13

taken by Government and not by judges to impose fixed sentences,

0:20:130:20:22

which form rocks on which the rest of sentencing has to accommodate,

0:20:220:20:27

and, if that was not the case, sentences would be shorter,

0:20:270:20:31

because judges are prevented from imposing the sentences

0:20:310:20:36

they otherwise would, by the fixed sentencing

0:20:360:20:39

policies of the Government at a particular time?

0:20:390:20:45

In the eight criminal justice acts which were passed

0:20:450:20:47

by the Labour Government, there was an extraordinary

0:20:470:20:49

inflexibility given to judges, in terms of passing sentences.

0:20:490:20:56

That is one of the results of the prison population.

0:20:560:20:58

We are endeavouring to give as many resources as we can to the parole

0:20:580:21:02

board to make sure when it is safe to release those prisoners

0:21:020:21:05

they will be released.

0:21:050:21:06

Lord Faulks.

0:21:060:21:07

"Transparency is the best disinfectant".

0:21:070:21:09

It's a phrase that's been in common parlance around Westminster

0:21:090:21:11

in the light of the various scandals over the integrity of MPs and peers,

0:21:110:21:17

the most notable one being the expenses scandal of 2009.

0:21:170:21:22

The arguments continue over how much transparency there is and how much

0:21:220:21:26

there should be on such matters as MPs' second jobs,

0:21:260:21:30

and MPs' financial interests.

0:21:300:21:33

The Commons Committee on Standards, has been looking into the topic

0:21:330:21:36

with the help of three close Westminster watchers.

0:21:360:21:42

The latest session focused on the new Code of Conduct for MPs.

0:21:420:21:45

In its widest sense, do you think it has really

0:21:450:21:47

had any impact?

0:21:470:21:50

Has it gone any way to solving the problems

0:21:500:21:52

for which it was intended to address?

0:21:520:21:56

I think the code has had a really important impact in terms

0:21:560:21:59

of the reputation of the UK, both internationally and...

0:21:590:22:06

The sort of standard-setting role internationally.

0:22:060:22:10

Many parliaments in Europe have adopted codes recently and they look

0:22:100:22:13

to the UK as an example.

0:22:130:22:15

The public are very clear that there should be a code

0:22:150:22:18

of conduct, but they also don't really see it as something

0:22:180:22:20

that is there for them to engage with.

0:22:200:22:22

I think there are more...

0:22:220:22:25

I think there are issues around the code of conduct

0:22:250:22:27

and what is in it, but I think there are also more profound issues

0:22:270:22:31

in our public trust about, for example, public understanding

0:22:310:22:33

of what Parliament is and what MPs do.

0:22:330:22:35

I think there are bigger issues around the public not understanding

0:22:350:22:37

the job of an MP and how...

0:22:370:22:41

And, particularly, the fact that, obviously, different MPs choose

0:22:410:22:43

to do that job in very different ways.

0:22:430:22:46

Coming back to something that's cropped up time and time again,

0:22:460:22:49

and that is MPs and second jobs.

0:22:490:22:53

There are good arguments on both sides but it seems to revolve around

0:22:530:22:56

the financial aspects of it.

0:22:560:22:59

Could I put it to you that we should be thinking broader than that?

0:22:590:23:03

It's not the money they're earning, it is what the interest is.

0:23:030:23:07

There are various issues where, if you belong

0:23:070:23:10

to the Royal Society For The Protection Of Birds,

0:23:100:23:13

and there is a big issue on a planning application,

0:23:130:23:16

do you not think we should be looking beyond second jobs,

0:23:160:23:23

but maybe into second interests?

0:23:230:23:24

I think often the focus is on money, partly because that is quite

0:23:240:23:27

salacious, but also because, if you are looking at how we address

0:23:270:23:30

the issue of second jobs, the money is the easiest

0:23:300:23:32

one to address.

0:23:320:23:33

You can either do time, you can do types of job,

0:23:330:23:36

or you can do money, and money is the simplest one

0:23:360:23:39

to regulate, so I think often the focus is on the money

0:23:390:23:42

for those reasons.

0:23:420:23:43

I fully accept that it's about much more than just an amount of money

0:23:430:23:46

that an MP is able to earn.

0:23:460:23:48

It's about how much time their constituents feel

0:23:480:23:50

that their MP is spending on their main job of being an MP,

0:23:500:23:53

and any additional work that they're doing.

0:23:530:23:57

My perspective is from the House of Lords where, in a sense,

0:23:570:24:00

we all have second jobs, or most people do, and in the last

0:24:000:24:03

five years, particularly, the House has become more and more

0:24:030:24:10

sensitive about registering in speeches with the registry

0:24:100:24:15

of interest.

0:24:150:24:16

All these interests.

0:24:160:24:17

Just looking at the current register and declarations of interest,

0:24:170:24:22

are there specific changes arising out of what you have just said that

0:24:220:24:28

you would like to see?

0:24:280:24:32

Unlock Democracy, together with Spinwatch, has have been trying

0:24:320:24:36

to put together a website to bring together all the different

0:24:360:24:40

transparency data that the Government already publishes -

0:24:400:24:42

it is all in the public domain - and publish it in one place.

0:24:420:24:45

We have been finding it a technological nightmare because,

0:24:450:24:49

while all the information is there, it is all in different formats.

0:24:490:24:52

It is all updated at different times.

0:24:520:24:54

Often, it is in the digital equivalent of the cupboard

0:24:540:24:56

under the stairs.

0:24:560:24:57

And it doesn't, in any way, relate to anything else.

0:24:570:25:01

I think a lot of it is around the usability.

0:25:010:25:03

If I wanted to go and search for a particular company and see

0:25:030:25:07

which MPs have registered an interest relating to this

0:25:070:25:09

company, I couldn't do that at the moment.

0:25:090:25:12

Or, similarly, if I wanted to search a particular MP's interests over

0:25:120:25:14

time or, you know, to get usable data, against which you could

0:25:140:25:17

cross-reference with other things, perhaps with voting records,

0:25:170:25:25

that's not possible to do, or at least not without downloading

0:25:250:25:29

and collating all of the data yourself.

0:25:290:25:33

The latest session of the Standards Committee.

0:25:330:25:35

And that's it for this programme.

0:25:350:25:36

Do join me for our next daily round-up.

0:25:360:25:38

Until then, from me, Keith Macdougall, goodbye.

0:25:380:25:42

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