01/12/2015 Victoria Derbyshire


01/12/2015

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Hello it's Tuesday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanne Gosling,

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This morning - Jamie Oliver tells this programme

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there should be age restrictions on energy drinks to protect our kids.

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I've spent a lot of time in schools. When you see young kids pulling out

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energy drinks, that is upsetting. They drink them, they shouldn't be

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able to, you know, it's a problem. Absolutely for energy drinks there

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should be age restrictions on the packaging, for sure.

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All this week on the programme we're looking at the best ways

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of tackling childhood obesity - today we're looking at whether

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manufacturers can do more to reduce the sugar content in our food.

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The sugar adds to the sweetness, but it adds to the texture. It has a

:01:05.:01:12.

caramel to it. We eat with your eyes, if it doesn't look nice we'll

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not eat it. Also on the programme -

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David Cameron says air strikes in Syria are "the right thing to do"

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- but Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn Mps on both sides are now

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deciding how to vote. I'm not convinced they have learned

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the lessons of Iraq, Libya. You have got to have boots on the ground. I'm

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confused, which is, I'm afraid to say, not a new thing over the last

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couple of weeks. And a group that claims to hate and resent

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couple of weeks. And a group that on the tube telling them they are a

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fat, ugly human. We'll hear from on the tube telling them they are a

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some of the people who've received the cards.

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Hello and welcome to the programme, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC News

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Your contributions to this programme and your expertise really is key

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actually, texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

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Later on the programme, we'll talk to a model who was told to lose

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weights and get down to the bone. She tells us why she is taking a

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petition to Downing Street, calling for a law to protect young models

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from being pressurised into becoming dangerously thin. Your contributions

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are key. You can watch the programme online wherever you are.

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You can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

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by going to add topics and searching Victoria Derbyshire.

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All this week on the programme we're looking at

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the best ways of tackling childhood obesity - a problem which could soon

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cost us more than smoking, war, alcohol and climate change.

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Some supermarket ready meals contain twice as much sugar as a can

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of fizzy drink, and some children's snacks have more sugar than

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This week a group of Mps have said the government has got to get tough

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on the food industry if we're going to tackle rising levels of obesity.

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It backed calls from Public Health England for

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with companies set targets to slowly cut the amount in our foods.

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But how easy is it to just strip out sugar?

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And how will you feel if our favourite treats start

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Our reporter Jim Reed has been looking into it.

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One medical condition will soon cost us more than smoking, war,

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The country's most senior doctor has warned that overweight is fast

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becoming the norm in British society.

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So the question for government, for doctors,

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how do we start to tackle what many think is the biggest threat to

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Gingerbread men, chocolate, Advent calendars, selection boxes.

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For many of us it is the sweetest month of the year.

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But is there any alternative to all this sugar?

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We've come to the Christmas market in Chester to test a pile

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Hi, do you want to try some of our sugar free and non-sugar free

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They taste like Easter egg chocolate.

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Typical cheap Advent calendar chocolate!

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One of these is sugar free and one of these is full of normal sugar.

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This will sound really horrible, but I have made better biscuits

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There is a bit of an aftertaste but it's OK.

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Yeah, but I feel like that's going to be a trick, but

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What we were trying to do tonight is an extreme example

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of what the health authorities say we have to do as a nation, which is

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to gradually reduce the amount of sugar in some of our packaged food.

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That might sound strange but it is an idea that has worked before with

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another substance, and it worked so effectively that millions of us did

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# There spreads the name and sterling fame # Of tasty

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50 years ago everyday products from bread to tinned vegetables

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Then government got involved, targets were set and a typical loaf

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of bread has 40% less salt today than it did in the 1980s.

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Now can we do the same thing with sugar?

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This is what happens behind closed doors when

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A colossal trade show to sell the stuff we might be eating

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Fresh and low-calorie. It is really hard to give you a sense

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But walking through the stands here, there must be hundreds and hundreds

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The first thing you notice when you walk through is that almost every

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stand, every company, is touting some sort of health benefit.

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Over there it is a new high protein ice drink.

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Over there, age healthier with that company.

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It is almost impossible to avoid those health messages from the food

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One of the next changes you can expect to see is the growth

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This plant, Stevia, is 200 times as sweet, with none of the calories.

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Unheard of four years ago, it is already used in dozens

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Often it is introduced gradually and buried away deep

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Would the consumer know that there is this in the product?

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It does not really depend on us as a supplier but every single

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brand owner, manufacturer, some of them will actually list

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It could be for various reasons, because it's

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an everyday product and they don't want to confuse consumers.

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For a big supermarkets it's that same juggling act.

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They say they want to move people away from unhealthy foods but can't

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There's a huge danger that customers know what they like,

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And unfortunately, there's a real gradual experience they need to go

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If you take all of the salt out of a ready meal, for example,

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It will taste bland, it will taste manufactured -

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even more manufactured - and it's not what they want or we want.

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We can't just take a population who are ingrained in their eating habits

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We're in the high tech kitchen of what used to be the agricultural

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college in Nottingham, learning how to bake a cake the right way.

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What we're doing next is we're going to add the sugar or sugar substitute

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to the margarine and cream it together in true Mary Berry style,

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bless her, and then add the eggs, add the flour and then cook them.

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Here's another thing with sugar - it doesn't just affect the taste

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And that is causing us real problems.

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Sugar has functions within the recipe.

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The sugar adds to the sweetness and the pleasant flavour.

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But also it adds texture to it and it also has a caramelising

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If it does not look nice we're not going to eat it.

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If you start to take sugar away from it, those things will change.

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After a few hours, seven different cakes, all with different levels

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You could market it again as a rustic product.

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But once you taste it, my word, it is revolting.

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These two are quite acceptable as cakes,

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as long as you understand that they've got the rustic cracked top.

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Some people might not find that attractive.

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This one was far too sweet and left a really awful chemical

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In fact I can still taste it now and I have had several glasses of water.

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And this is what we do when we reformulate.

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It is a sort of a juggling to get the correct texture, the correct

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colour, the correct cost, because of course the artificial sweeteners

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OK, so a dry sponge is a long way from the treats

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But if obesity is, as the Government says, the biggest

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public health threat facing our children, we might have to accept

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The companies selling us that stuff will have to work harder to come up

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with recipes that are not just good for our palate, but good

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Later in the programme we'll hear from Jamie Oliver who tells us he

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wants to see age restrictions introduced for energy drinks.

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Watch that full interview after 10 this morning.

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Lots of you getting in touch about this.

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Morag says it's not difficult. Our eight-year-old's only been offered

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water and milk. Bob says I agree with Jamie, the energy drinks are a

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modern scourge full of caffeine and sugar and I see youngsters drinking

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them. One woman is taking a petition all

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the way to Downing Street. She tells us why the fashion industry thinks

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zero size models are fine. Doing the numbers game -

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the Government thinks it can win, Government ministers are meeting

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this morning and are expected to support the

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calling of a Commons debate and vote tomorrow, on expanding the RAF air

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strikes against so-called Islamic The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn -

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who'd called for a longer debate - has accused the Prime Minister

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of a "rush to war". Psychiatrists have concluded that

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the Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe,

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is no longer mentally ill. They are recommending he's

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transferred to The final decision

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on moving him will be made by the There'll be major disruption

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across the NHS in England today - despite a decision to call off

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a 24-hour strike by junior doctors. thousands of patients who'll have

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to reschedule their appointments. An interim deal was reached last

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night when the Government suspended Jamie Oliver has told this programme

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there ought to be age restrictions on energy drinks to prevent young

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children from drinking them in schools. The celebrity chef, who's

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campaigning for a sugar tax, says sugar is "without doubt" as serious

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a threat to the nation's health as I've spent a lot of time in primary

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schools around the world and in Britain and when you see seven and

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eight-year-old kids pulling out cans of energy drink, you know, all the

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brands, with caffeine and all sorts of things in there, that is

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upsetting and when the kids drink them, which they are not allowed to,

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but they get them, there's no standard for lunch boxes in this

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country, it's a problem. So absolutely there should be age

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restrictions on the front of packs, for sure.

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Wales has become the first nation in the UK to make every adult a

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potential organ donor. Under the system of "presumed consent", anyone

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who doesn't want to donate will have to opt out. That's already the case

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in more than twenty European countries, including Belgium, where

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Hywel Griffith has been to see how it works.

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A life transformed by the gift of donation.

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In the Belgian city of Ghent, a patient receives new lungs and a

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live, multiple organ transplants like this are more common in Belgium

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than in the UK. The supply of organs is simply greater. The law changed

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here in Belgium back in 1986 with very litp opposition. It seems

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everyone accepts they are a potential donor unless they choose

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to opt out. In practise, only about 2% of people here do so which offers

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huge help for Belgian patients. The organs donated in Wales won't all

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stay in Wales, they'll still be shared across Britain. According to

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the woman who chaired the last UK transplant review, the new laws are

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unlikely to come to England any time soon. We have to wait and see what

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happens. It's difficult to know. In countries they introduce presumed

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consent, the numbers went down. It's a finely balanced judgment. 3% of

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people in Wales had decided to opt out, following Belgium's example, it

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seems most are happy to be donors by default.

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The schools inspectorate Ofsted has warned of a growing north-south

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divide in the standard of secondary education, and says the children of

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It found many schools in the Midlands and north of England

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were not good enough and said the problem cannot be explained away

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by the higher levels of economic deprivation in the two areas.

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Small firms and rural homes are still missing

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Research carried out by Ofcom suggests that one

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and a half million homes in rural areas can't get the minimum speed.

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The Government says all homes and businesses should have access

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It also says fairy lights could be slowing down the speed

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We were very struck by the research. It looks like 6 million

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homes that might be having problems with broadband could be down to the

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Wi-Fi connection, the richer, and easy things can cause interference

:17:14.:17:19.

which can slow down speeds. We will be finding out why they 10am. Now

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the spot. British tennis, all the highlights after the Davis cup

:17:35.:17:39.

winner, today the headlines have gone from smiles to thrones after

:17:40.:17:43.

Andy Murray revealed he did not know where might the next generation of

:17:44.:17:46.

players will come from. That dominates the papers. He says the

:17:47.:17:54.

Lawn Tennis Association have felt to build on his successes. Murray says

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they never get anything done. The world number two saying he would

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rather concentrate on his own game. It will not make for pretty reading

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for tennis bosses. We will be speaking to our correspondent just

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10am. We will look at the nominees for sports personality of the year.

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The public will have the chance to vote on the night of the 20th of

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December. We will look at the short list for that. England took the 2020

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series against Pakistan with a 3-0 win. Good news for cricket this

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morning anyway. I will be back just after 10am.

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There'll be major disruption in the NHS in England today

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despite a decision to call off a 24-hour strike by junior doctors.

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The British Medical Association agreed to suspend

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the walk-out following a last-minute breakthrough in talks last night.

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But it came too late for hospitals and more than 4,000 patients have

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Strikes have been put on hold until January to allow

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Here's a quick explainer of what doctors want.

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CHANTING: Save our NHS! Save our NHS!

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The priority at the moment is the thousands of people that we think

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are dying unnecessarily because we don't have proper cover for urgent

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They are trying to cut our pay when we are already overworked,

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underpaid, demoralised, and this is why people are going abroad.

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So how does the pay for junior doctors compare with other jobs?

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Let's start with what junior doctors get.

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According to the NHS Employers Organisation, the

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average total salary for a doctor in training is around ?36,000.

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The starting salary in their first year is ?23,000 for 40 hours a week,

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but many work far more hours than that and get paid for overtime.

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Some doctors are also in training for up to 14 years so

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Junior doctors also get more for working extra and anti-social

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hours - that's currently classified as anytime outside 7am to 7pm

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But the new contract changes anti-social hours to anytime outside

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7am to 10pm Monday to Saturday, making Saturday between 7am and

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It's all part of the drive towards seven-day working in the NHS.

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Working alongside doctors, a fully qualified nurse starts

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They get paid more for unsocial hours, which means those worked on

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Saturdays, Sundays, public holidays and on weekdays between 8pm and 6am.

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So what about outside the medical profession?

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Outside the medical profession, teachers start on ?19,000

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in primary school and ?23,000 in secondary school.

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39 weeks of the year are allocated for teaching

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In the emergency services, starting salary for

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This rises to ?28,000 when fully trained-up, and higher

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Working hours typically include regular unsocial hours.

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Firefighters work on average a 42-hour week

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Thank you for coming in. We talked to you before during the dispute.

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What are your thoughts? Initially I felt a great sense of relief. No

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doctor wanted to be in the position where they were actively withholding

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labour. However I do not think this is anything to celebrate. There has

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not been any victory as yet. There is a great deal of uncertainty.

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There is going to be some negotiations taking place between

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the British Medical Association, NHS employers and the Department of

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Health. That is a very good thing however there ultimately remains...

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The contract can still be imposed upon us and the threat to impose

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that has been temporarily is spend it so there is definitely welcome

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news that I still have concerns. What would you liked to see? It is

:23:20.:23:24.

being talked about as a breakthrough so there must have been movement on

:23:25.:23:27.

both sides. I think it is a breakthrough. Have you heard

:23:28.:23:34.

rumours? No. I am afraid not. I am looking forward to hearing from the

:23:35.:23:39.

BMA had talks proceed. A gas released a statement yesterday. I

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watched Jeremy Hunt's speech in the House of Commons yesterday. Finally

:23:48.:23:50.

he acknowledged that as we start to provide more and more elective

:23:51.:23:55.

services the pay bill will increase. That has been a great cause of

:23:56.:23:58.

concern for us that we were going to be asked to work more for less. The

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fact he has acknowledged that part of increasing 77 sees the pay bill

:24:05.:24:09.

will increase and he acknowledged that. That is welcome news for me as

:24:10.:24:16.

a doctor and I feel reassured we are not going to be doing more for

:24:17.:24:20.

less. The safeguards are going to be one of the big points for

:24:21.:24:23.

negotiation with the BMA and NHS employers. Looking at the safeguards

:24:24.:24:29.

and what mechanism they propose for making sure we do not work and

:24:30.:24:34.

seafarers will be very interesting point for discussion. The government

:24:35.:24:37.

says it is doing this to enable things to be better for patients for

:24:38.:24:41.

good seven-day week car. What do you say to those who say you are

:24:42.:24:48.

fighting against flexibility in reality that applies to most people?

:24:49.:24:54.

I do not think we are fighting against flexibility. The contract I

:24:55.:24:58.

have allows me to work night shift, seven days a week, the consultant

:24:59.:25:03.

contract accounts for seven days a week 52 weeks a year 365 days a year

:25:04.:25:10.

emergency service. That is not about fighting against flexibility. The

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explicit when you say you are fighting against flexibility. The

:25:13.:25:19.

less. What had been your fears about what you could have been working

:25:20.:25:22.

less. What had been your fears about the differential on pay? We get a

:25:23.:25:23.

rotor and at the moment my normal the differential on pay? We get a

:25:24.:25:28.

working hours are from ATM until 6pm. I do long days of this

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working hours are from ATM until I will be working from eight in the

:25:34.:25:39.

morning until 8:30pm. They look at the root of a period of time and if

:25:40.:25:42.

you look at the number of hours I work the average iWork is just under

:25:43.:25:49.

48 hours. How much I get paid is based upon the average amount of

:25:50.:25:52.

hours I work and the anti-social banding. Your question was to

:25:53.:26:01.

clarify... Whether it is the fight against flexibility. It sounds as if

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you work across seven days a week. You say you are happy that Jeremy

:26:06.:26:09.

Hunt has clarified that the pay bill will go up. In terms of the number

:26:10.:26:14.

of hours you work average out and the pay you are receiving

:26:15.:26:17.

of hours you work average out and look like there will be much

:26:18.:26:18.

difference and therefore you will be happy? I have not seen any offer.

:26:19.:26:27.

The final offer is to be negotiated. There are assurances, the assurances

:26:28.:26:32.

that no doctor will lose money. I am happy with that. I think we have to

:26:33.:26:38.

wait and find out what the outcome is with the BMA. The deadline for

:26:39.:26:43.

striking has been extended until January. It does not necessarily

:26:44.:26:47.

mean that strikes will not go ahead. I hope they do not but I do not

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think... This situation is far from resolved. The strike was called off

:26:53.:26:58.

but there is disruption anyway because thousands of operations were

:26:59.:27:02.

cancelled. What do you say to the bebop who have been directly

:27:03.:27:06.

impacted? I am incredibly sorry that has happened. It could have been

:27:07.:27:13.

averted if we had gone to Acas earlier. The BMA called for Acas as

:27:14.:27:17.

soon as the ballot was announced that Jeremy Hunt waited until late

:27:18.:27:21.

in the day for talks with Acas to commence. That left... There was no

:27:22.:27:27.

way the strike was going to be avoided up until the last minute.

:27:28.:27:33.

Because he delayed going to Acas. Talks with Acas could have been

:27:34.:27:36.

started far earlier and it could have been averted. Thank you. Let us

:27:37.:27:43.

know your thoughts on that strike and the fact it has been called off.

:27:44.:27:50.

Jamie Oliver tells us there should be Druze restrictions on energy

:27:51.:27:57.

drinks to protect our kids. Someone says if energy drinks or not

:27:58.:28:01.

desirable enough already, put on an age restriction. I work in a shop

:28:02.:28:07.

and we do not sell energy drinks to be blunders 16. Keep your thoughts

:28:08.:28:44.

coming in and you can watch the full interview after 10am. A model who

:28:45.:28:50.

was told she needed to lose weight before she would be signed up to an

:28:51.:28:54.

agency's Brooks is taking a petition to Downing Street.

:28:55.:29:01.

Rosie Nelson, who's 23 and a size 8 to 10 is

:29:02.:29:04.

calling for a law to protect young models from being pressurised

:29:05.:29:06.

She says agencies need to take more responsibility

:29:07.:29:09.

Over 113,000 people have backed her petition.

:29:10.:29:12.

She joins us now alongside Salome Munuo who is freelance

:29:13.:29:15.

fashion writer, who doesn't think size zero models should be banned.

:29:16.:29:21.

Thank you for coming in. You are going to MPs and want them to

:29:22.:29:29.

legislate. Why? How much of an issue is there? What about the pressure?

:29:30.:29:35.

Girls are not willing to speak up about it. I have been able to speak

:29:36.:29:40.

up about it and I am unique. The more awareness that is brought to it

:29:41.:29:46.

the more girls are willing to speak about it. No one speaks out. What

:29:47.:29:52.

ways have you seen of pressure being put on models, you or other models?

:29:53.:29:57.

I have had countless people messaging me telling me they have

:29:58.:30:00.

gone through the same thing, being told they have to lose weight and

:30:01.:30:05.

would not be signed unless they did. A lot of friends have had the same

:30:06.:30:11.

thing happen. I have been at shoots where girls will not eat and look

:30:12.:30:16.

really thin. When you say lose weight, what sort of shape our they

:30:17.:30:23.

in? What sort of ship were UN? When I went to the agency in London I was

:30:24.:30:29.

pretty much the size I am now, size eight and they said I needed to slim

:30:30.:30:33.

down more so I lost weight. How did they evaluate you? They measure you.

:30:34.:30:42.

They will say, you have to fix this and that. My hips were too big. They

:30:43.:30:48.

will say you have to get your measurements down. I lost five

:30:49.:30:52.

kilos. You were told to slim down to the bone. I went back again after I

:30:53.:30:58.

lost weight and I looked ill because I had lost so much weight. They

:30:59.:31:04.

said, we want you down to the bone. What is it in the fashion industry

:31:05.:31:08.

that makes there be desire for people like Rosie who is very slim

:31:09.:31:12.

and looks healthy to be even thinner? If it is not an accurate

:31:13.:31:21.

reflection of society. It stems from the shows, girls have to be... The

:31:22.:31:27.

designers want to show off their clothes in the best light. They

:31:28.:31:32.

choose girls that are very slim in order to highlight the clothes. They

:31:33.:31:44.

will go into different sizes to suit the market afterwards.

:31:45.:31:51.

So they are probably not representative of how they look in

:31:52.:31:56.

the end? It's always been that way traditionally, but do you know, I

:31:57.:31:59.

feel that things are changing, and... In what way? In France there

:32:00.:32:05.

is a BMI rule. Has that had an impact? Yes, because Paris Fashion

:32:06.:32:11.

Week is one of the top destinations for the shows. So the fact they have

:32:12.:32:14.

taken a stand, it's going to have a trickle effect. Can you see any

:32:15.:32:18.

difference? I haven't been keeping up with what France is doing at the

:32:19.:32:23.

moment, but... But models in generally, do they seem to be

:32:24.:32:27.

getting any bigger? During Fashion Week, it's very, very thin.

:32:28.:32:30.

Throughout the rest of the year, there is kind of becoming more of a

:32:31.:32:37.

cultural shift with it, so more sportswear is coming out and health

:32:38.:32:40.

consciousness is happening so there is a small change happening with

:32:41.:32:43.

certain brands but not with high fashion. Tell us what you want I

:32:44.:32:50.

mentioned the BMI rule in Paris? Most of all, I want models to be

:32:51.:32:56.

healthier. How do you define that? Not pushing themselves in drastic

:32:57.:33:01.

ways to lose weight, so not eating certain thing, girls are eating

:33:02.:33:05.

cotton wool and popcorn. Cot conwool? Yes, to fill up their

:33:06.:33:10.

stomachs. I've had a friend say that's what happened at the show, so

:33:11.:33:14.

girls do is such drastic things because they think modelling is

:33:15.:33:17.

going to be really promising, they want to be on the catwalk and do

:33:18.:33:21.

well and the agency want them to lose weight and you get praise if

:33:22.:33:25.

you are thin as well from the agencies. So do the agencies need to

:33:26.:33:30.

be told don't praise for thin? Yes. There needs to be a shift where

:33:31.:33:35.

agencies are more aware that healthiness is what is in, that

:33:36.:33:39.

should be the goal for the models, they shouldn't pressure the girls to

:33:40.:33:42.

lose weight but to be healthy. If you want legislation though, it

:33:43.:33:47.

has to be crystal clear, doesn't it so people can follow it, so what

:33:48.:33:52.

would the law say for you that would protect the models? Should agencies

:33:53.:33:57.

specifically be banned from telling a model to lose weight? I don't

:33:58.:34:01.

think the agencies will follow through with it, so I would like to

:34:02.:34:05.

see health checks put in place so if a model has to lose weight, she can

:34:06.:34:11.

do it responsibly, she can get health, nutritional advice and an

:34:12.:34:14.

exercise regime from a doctor rather than the agency say, lose weight and

:34:15.:34:18.

come back. Is hyper thin, to the extent that you are talking about,

:34:19.:34:22.

ever achievable in a healthy way? I don't think so. Unless you dedicate

:34:23.:34:30.

your life to it which a lot of models do, successful models can

:34:31.:34:34.

dedicate their life to being thin and eating healthily because they

:34:35.:34:38.

are successful already. The industry sees models as very disposable so

:34:39.:34:41.

the girls willing to two far for it are the ones that won't be modelling

:34:42.:34:46.

for the rest of their lives. So should side zero be band? I don't

:34:47.:34:49.

think banning anything is the right way to go about it. But when

:34:50.:34:53.

a girl and her bones are sticking out, that is not a good thing to

:34:54.:34:55.

portray to the out, that is not a good thing to

:34:56.:34:59.

What do you think, should side zero be banned? I don't think banning

:35:00.:35:07.

size zero is the way forward. I feel that educating the public through

:35:08.:35:10.

size zero is the way forward. I feel changes in the industry is the way

:35:11.:35:11.

forward. My view changes in the industry is the way

:35:12.:35:18.

petition is a great idea in principle, but

:35:19.:35:23.

long ago was it that you were told to slim down to

:35:24.:35:36.

long ago was it that you were told beginning of this year, but I only

:35:37.:35:39.

started my campaign two months ago and it's gotten this far. But the

:35:40.:35:43.

arguments about models being told to lose weight predate that, so the

:35:44.:35:46.

beginning of this year Rosie is told to slim down to the bone, should an

:35:47.:35:51.

agency be talking like that? No, they shouldn't. They should be

:35:52.:35:54.

encouraging healthy lifestyles, they shouldn't. They should be

:35:55.:36:02.

ways to slim down or to be in the best shape a model can be. Some are

:36:03.:36:09.

very naturally thin and can still live a healthy lifestyle and eat

:36:10.:36:12.

correctly and achieve live a healthy lifestyle and eat

:36:13.:36:16.

I think there is a growing demand for more of a natural figure and

:36:17.:36:22.

more shapely. I know editorially, from past experience, we are always

:36:23.:36:24.

encouraged to book girls that from past experience, we are always

:36:25.:36:28.

not too painfully thin. How does this impact on your career because

:36:29.:36:32.

you are gorgeous and you are very, very slim, could you go on a

:36:33.:36:37.

catwalk? No, I wouldn't be allowed on the catwalk, of

:36:38.:36:40.

catwalk? No, I wouldn't be allowed say of course not, everybody

:36:41.:36:41.

watching would be say, why ever not, say of course not, everybody

:36:42.:36:47.

there? Most of the catwalks on Fashion Week, they want girls with

:36:48.:36:51.

hips the size of about 34 inches and I'm about 36 so I'm two inches off.

:36:52.:36:56.

Designers just don't want that, they want all the girls to have the same

:36:57.:37:01.

figure so that the collection flows. Fashion Week is almost like an art

:37:02.:37:06.

collection for the designers to show their pieces off. There's no reason

:37:07.:37:10.

why that look can't be slightly bigger though.

:37:11.:37:14.

So this is your petition, going off to Downing Street later? Yes. Thank

:37:15.:37:19.

you so much. Lots of people getting in touch with us on this. We have

:37:20.:37:21.

got Sarah on text saying, I used to in touch with us on this. We have

:37:22.:37:27.

dance and was a told to lose weight. I am 5'7", went down to

:37:28.:37:31.

five-and-a-half stone, I'm now 52 and my

:37:32.:37:34.

five-and-a-half stone, I'm now 52 I can't eat. Anorexia's left me ill.

:37:35.:37:43.

Tom on Twitter says watching Rosie talk about her petition fascinating

:37:44.:37:48.

campaign, an anonymous texter says modelling legislation, vote with

:37:49.:37:52.

your feet and refuse. Thank you for all your comments. Do keep on

:37:53.:37:55.

getting in touch with your thoughts on that and everything else we talk

:37:56.:37:57.

about on the programme today. Psychiatrists have concluded that

:37:58.:38:09.

the Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe,

:38:10.:38:12.

is no longer mentally ill. They are recommending he's

:38:13.:38:14.

transferred to a specialist prison from Broadmoor

:38:15.:38:16.

high security hospital, where he's West Midlands police have released

:38:17.:38:18.

this video of a drunk driver being chased by police as he swerved

:38:19.:38:27.

along the M5 in Worcestershire Officers have released

:38:28.:38:29.

the video ahead of their christmas The 34-year-old driver was filmed

:38:30.:38:32.

in October driving at over 80mph. Still I've got a fail to stop, fail

:38:33.:38:40.

to stop. He's all over the road. We have got a stinger ready,

:38:41.:38:46.

keep it coming. It is the vehicle coming up

:38:47.:38:50.

towards you now, lane two. I think it has been stung

:38:51.:38:55.

but I am not 100% sure. Rory Cellan-Jones joins us now to

:38:56.:39:28.

talk about Wi-Fi. There is music coming from these lights. Who buys

:39:29.:39:33.

them, unless it's the BBC props department. This is about checking

:39:34.:39:38.

your Wi-Fi signal in your house. Ofcom released this Act today, it's

:39:39.:39:42.

available on apple phones and Android phones and it enables you to

:39:43.:39:49.

run a quick test. It looks at your Wi-Fi network and says, is it

:39:50.:39:52.

holding back your Broadband signal. It's not measuring the speed of your

:39:53.:39:55.

Broadband into your house which for many people is the real issue, it's

:39:56.:40:00.

when it goes into your house and round your house, how well is it

:40:01.:40:03.

doing. One of the things it points to is the potential for interference

:40:04.:40:07.

from other electrical devices, if you put your router round your house

:40:08.:40:12.

near to something else. So for instance, if you had fairy lights

:40:13.:40:16.

right next to the router, they could interfere with the signal. Why?

:40:17.:40:22.

Draining the power? No, it's because of radio interference. I mean, it's

:40:23.:40:27.

effectively a radio signal. Sit an excuse? I think it's it's a bit of

:40:28.:40:34.

an excuse. Experts say, this is one very minor reason. That is annoying!

:40:35.:40:40.

Another reason to put your router out in a good place, high up on a

:40:41.:40:44.

shelf rather than buried at the bottom of a shelf so the signal can

:40:45.:40:48.

be distributed more easily. The real issue for most is not how good the

:40:49.:40:52.

wireless network is, it's how good the signal coming into their home

:40:53.:40:56.

is. That's still the thing that's getting lots of people really cross

:40:57.:41:00.

at the moment. This is kind of distracting from that though to do

:41:01.:41:05.

isn't it? Yes. It isn't just fairy lights, they are talking about all

:41:06.:41:10.

sorts, baby monitors? Yes. If you put a monitor right next to thing

:41:11.:41:14.

electrical. So get everything else out the way then you can properly

:41:15.:41:19.

address the issue? Yes, then you can check if your Wi-Fi network is

:41:20.:41:22.

working properly. Then once you have decided that, you have other things

:41:23.:41:29.

to worry about which is why is it so slow coming into my house. There is

:41:30.:41:34.

nothing we can do to change that? We can put pressure on the companies to

:41:35.:41:39.

start to give us a better service, for instance to roll out fiber-optic

:41:40.:41:44.

cables which is the key to fast Broadband along every street. There

:41:45.:41:47.

is a debate whether they should be at a Cabinet at the side of the

:41:48.:41:54.

street or in our homes. How much progress is being made on that?

:41:55.:41:58.

Ofcom said overall, more than eight in ten homes can get super fast

:41:59.:42:03.

Broadband but they are worried about rural homes, one-and-a-half million

:42:04.:42:07.

rural homes that are just too far from the cabinets to get a decent

:42:08.:42:12.

connection and lots of small businesses on business parks where

:42:13.:42:16.

you would think things would be great, turns out BT and other

:42:17.:42:20.

companies haven't wired up the business parks, so a lot of the

:42:21.:42:24.

little companies are getting rubbish Broadband and they say it's

:42:25.:42:27.

affecting the way they can do business. The only thing to change

:42:28.:42:32.

it is for more infrastructure to be built in, but I guess in rural

:42:33.:42:36.

areas, it's not so commercially viable? Well, there's been

:42:37.:42:39.

Government money into that and there is an inquiry by Ofcom into what

:42:40.:42:46.

happens next. There is a debate about whether BT Open Reach should

:42:47.:42:49.

be split off, which is what its rivals Shay should happen, an be an

:42:50.:42:53.

independent pores force, then there would be more investment. BT says

:42:54.:42:58.

that's not the way forward, but that is what Ofcom is deciding tonne way

:42:59.:43:04.

forward. -- rivals say should happen. That music is driving me

:43:05.:43:10.

crazy. I don't think they'll be on the Christmas tree at home. Thank

:43:11.:43:12.

you very much. Let's catch up with the weather now

:43:13.:43:14.

with Alex. You are going to have to compete

:43:15.:43:24.

against that music I'm afraid. It's driving me mad already. It's

:43:25.:43:29.

1st December today. Weather-wise, the first day of winter. That is how

:43:30.:43:33.

we measure winter. First day of Advent and I have some Christmassy

:43:34.:43:38.

pictures to show you. Take a lack at this. Dachshund through the snow.

:43:39.:43:46.

See what I did there? ! A little girl, Ira, just delightful. These

:43:47.:43:51.

pictures taken through the weekend in Scotland at the weekend. So

:43:52.:43:56.

sweet. Christmassy. That snow is probably melting as we speak because

:43:57.:43:59.

things are on the change weather-wise and it's the first day

:44:00.:44:04.

of winter weather-wise. Some people measure it difference but for

:44:05.:44:08.

climate reasons, our winter is December, January, February,

:44:09.:44:11.

breaking it down into three months because it makes it easier for the

:44:12.:44:17.

statistics. Summer is June, July, August. Another way of measuring the

:44:18.:44:21.

seasons, perhaps a more common way is to use the equinox and solstice,

:44:22.:44:27.

so at the moment we'd be in autumn. The winter, the shortest day, is not

:44:28.:44:32.

for a few weeks yet, 22nd December. That is part of the problem. Because

:44:33.:44:36.

the dates shift. For example, the autumn equinox can be on the 22nd,

:44:37.:44:42.

23rd or 24th. Are you keeping up? Yes. This is December 1st? Yes, you

:44:43.:44:48.

can do it this way, that is fine, but because the dates vary, it gets

:44:49.:44:52.

far more complicated and doesn't work statistically. Measuring

:44:53.:44:57.

climate, you need to keep things constant over time otherwise you are

:44:58.:44:59.

not comparing like with like. That is why we keep it simple and

:45:00.:45:07.

winster's started, spring starts on 1st March, summer 1st June. Will it

:45:08.:45:11.

be a mild winter? Mixed. This morning Cold in

:45:12.:45:19.

Scotland, warm in the south. There is an awful lot going on

:45:20.:45:29.

weather-wise. We have snow out there, pictures of snow across the

:45:30.:45:32.

Highlands. Yet for most of us, this was a more typical scene the morning

:45:33.:45:37.

in Warwickshire, just grey but really quite mild with temperatures

:45:38.:45:40.

well above the average for the time of year across much of the UK. This

:45:41.:45:52.

has been bringing some wet weather. We did see some snow through the

:45:53.:46:04.

course of the morning. That brought warmer air before the snow could get

:46:05.:46:10.

going. The snow is tending to disappeared as the warmer air pushes

:46:11.:46:16.

across more -- much of Scotland. The snow is likely to be disappearing

:46:17.:46:20.

because the temperatures are claiming. In Glasgow we could be in

:46:21.:46:25.

double figures. Most of the rest of the UK is great and my old. A lot of

:46:26.:46:32.

code around. Some breaks. Still breezy in the south but not as gusty

:46:33.:46:39.

as the past few days. Some rain and drizzle affecting the whole than the

:46:40.:46:43.

cost. Through the night it will stay mild. The warm air covering the UK.

:46:44.:46:49.

The winds are getting lively with gusts of 60 in the far north-west,

:46:50.:46:55.

70, as marine poos he's back in late in the night. Still mild. -- more

:46:56.:46:59.

rain in the night. Still mild. -- more

:47:00.:47:07.

temperatures than last night. The rain is going to

:47:08.:47:11.

temperatures than last night. The tomorrow. Temperatures will drop

:47:12.:47:12.

across tomorrow. Temperatures will drop

:47:13.:47:15.

but we will see something greater. tomorrow. Temperatures will drop

:47:16.:47:17.

Questions about the tomorrow. Temperatures will drop

:47:18.:47:20.

and how far south it will get but it will bring to a halt.

:47:21.:47:25.

north-west England and Wales having a very soggy day.

:47:26.:47:37.

north-west England and Wales having and double figures. Parts of

:47:38.:47:39.

Scotland and Northern Ireland turning colder. Bad weather front

:47:40.:47:43.

could give other few headaches. It is going to wiggle around over the

:47:44.:47:47.

next few days and marks the difference between the warmer air in

:47:48.:47:51.

the south and the colder air further north and will continue to bring

:47:52.:47:56.

rain. Much of the south-east stays dry, further not something greater

:47:57.:48:01.

but it will be colder. We will continue with this contrast until

:48:02.:48:04.

Friday when the rain shoots out of the way but there is more wet and

:48:05.:48:08.

windy weather to the far north-west that will swing across the UK as we

:48:09.:48:12.

go into the weekend. Quite a bit going on to say the least.

:48:13.:48:16.

Hello, it's just after 10am, I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria.

:48:17.:48:19.

Welcome to the programme if you've just joined us.

:48:20.:48:23.

Jamie Oliver tells this programme there should be age restrictions on

:48:24.:48:32.

I have spent a primary schools around

:48:33.:48:36.

I have spent a in Britain and when you see

:48:37.:48:38.

seven-year-olds and eat-year-olds pulling out cans of

:48:39.:48:40.

seven-year-olds and eat-year-olds and you know the blood bill bands

:48:41.:48:43.

with caffeine, Today, we're looking at whether

:48:44.:48:45.

manufacturers can do more to reduce The sugar adds to the sweetness and

:48:46.:49:14.

the pleasant flavour but it also adds texture to it and it has a

:49:15.:49:20.

caramel lighting effect so it browns and so it is aesthetically pleasing

:49:21.:49:26.

and we eat with our eyes. If it does not look nice we are not going to

:49:27.:49:28.

eat it. Also on the programme,

:49:29.:49:29.

David Cameron says air strikes in Syria are "the right thing to

:49:30.:49:31.

do" but Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn MPs on both sides are now

:49:32.:49:34.

deciding how to vote. I am not yet convinced that they

:49:35.:49:46.

have lurked the lessons of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, to prove

:49:47.:49:54.

that it is possible to destroy a regime, you have to have boots on

:49:55.:49:59.

the ground. I am confused. That is not a new thing over the last couple

:50:00.:50:01.

of weeks. And a group that claims to "hate and

:50:02.:50:06.

resent fat people" has been handing out cards to women on the tube

:50:07.:50:10.

telling them they're a "fat, ugly human". We'll speak to some of the

:50:11.:50:13.

people who've received the cards. Cabinet ministers are meeting

:50:14.:50:20.

this morning and are expected to support the

:50:21.:50:28.

calling of a Commons debate and vote tomorrow, on expanding the RAF air

:50:29.:50:31.

strikes against so-called Islamic The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn -

:50:32.:50:34.

who'd called for a longer debate - has accused the Prime Minister

:50:35.:50:38.

of a "rush to war". Psychiatrists have concluded that

:50:39.:50:41.

the Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe,

:50:42.:50:42.

is no longer mentally ill. They are recommending he's

:50:43.:50:44.

transferred to a specialist prison from Broadmoor

:50:45.:50:48.

high security hospital, where he's The final decision

:50:49.:50:51.

on moving him will be made by the There'll be major disruption

:50:52.:50:55.

across the NHS in England today - despite a decision to call off

:50:56.:51:06.

a 24-hour strike by junior doctors. The move to suspend industrial

:51:07.:51:08.

action came too late for thousands of patients who'll have

:51:09.:51:11.

to reschedule their appointments. An interim deal was reached last

:51:12.:51:13.

night when the Government suspended Jamie Oliver has told this programme

:51:14.:51:16.

there ought to be age restrictions on energy drinks to prevent young

:51:17.:51:21.

children from drinking them The celebrity chef,

:51:22.:51:24.

who's campaigning for a sugar tax, says sugar is

:51:25.:51:29.

"without doubt" as serious a threat I've spent a lot of time in primary

:51:30.:51:31.

schools around the world and in Britain and when you see seven and

:51:32.:51:39.

eight-year-old kids pulling out cans of energy drinks, you know, all the

:51:40.:51:46.

brands, with caffeine and all sorts of things in there,

:51:47.:51:49.

that is upsetting and when the kids drink them, which they are

:51:50.:51:52.

not allowed to, but they get them, there's no standard for lunch boxes

:51:53.:51:55.

in this country, it's a problem. So absolutely there should be age

:51:56.:51:58.

restrictions on the front of packs, Wales has become the first nation

:51:59.:52:01.

in the UK to make every adult Under the system of

:52:02.:52:04.

"presumed consent", anyone who doesn't want to donate will have to

:52:05.:52:11.

register their objection. So far only three per cent

:52:12.:52:13.

of people have chosen to opt out. A model who was told she needed to

:52:14.:52:18.

lose weight and 'get down to the bone' before she would be signed up

:52:19.:52:21.

to an agency's books is taking a Rosie Nelson, who's 23 and a size

:52:22.:52:25.

8-10, is calling for a law to protect young models from being

:52:26.:52:29.

pressurised into becoming I went in and my hips were too big

:52:30.:52:44.

so they said I had to slim down so I lost five kilos. You were told to

:52:45.:52:51.

slim down to the bone. Yes. I looked ill at the time because I had lost

:52:52.:52:56.

so much wet afterwards. That is when they said we want you down to the

:52:57.:53:04.

bone. After helping Great Britain to a first Davis cup since 1936 the

:53:05.:53:10.

world number two has told newspaper journalist there are not enough

:53:11.:53:20.

young British players taking part in grand slams and that he does not

:53:21.:53:23.

speak to those in power because it is a waste of time as nothing ever

:53:24.:53:26.

gets done. I spoke to our tennis correspondent. This is a frustration

:53:27.:53:30.

dating back many years. He feels that it is almost pointless having

:53:31.:53:34.

conversations with those who run the sport in the UK. He feels there is a

:53:35.:53:38.

distinct lack of juniors coming through. There is very much evidence

:53:39.:53:45.

of that. Results at the junior grand slams be nonexistent. Not enough

:53:46.:53:49.

boys in particular at the draw. Pete is one exemption on the girls said.

:53:50.:53:58.

The national tennis centre was built in Roehampton in 2007 at a cost of

:53:59.:54:03.

?40 million. Andy Murray and other top players are frustrated by the

:54:04.:54:08.

fact that if they do go there to practice that are not other top

:54:09.:54:13.

quality players around to hit with because in recent years the system

:54:14.:54:16.

has been decentralised. Training camps used to take place in London

:54:17.:54:21.

and are taking place throughout the country. Do you think this criticism

:54:22.:54:26.

is fair? A lot of the points he makes are valid but it gets back a

:54:27.:54:33.

few years. The Chief Executive has been in for two gears and there is

:54:34.:54:36.

not a great deal of confidence in the performance side of the

:54:37.:54:39.

programme for the reasons I have been outlining. A fabulous college

:54:40.:54:44.

buddy tracksuit coach, never someone who was going to be able to play

:54:45.:54:49.

that performance director Roland be in charge of strategy and sit behind

:54:50.:54:53.

a desk and plan the future of British tennis. That was clearly a

:54:54.:54:57.

mistake. We will see whether Peter Keane proves to be the best

:54:58.:55:04.

long-term option from another sport. Lawn Tennis Association's mission is

:55:05.:55:08.

to increase participation. The most recent figures released by sport

:55:09.:55:13.

England survey revealed that the numbers playing tennis has risen but

:55:14.:55:19.

they have dropped over the last five or six years like many sports and it

:55:20.:55:25.

remains to be seen whether they can keep those numbers steady. You

:55:26.:55:28.

cannot have one without the other and at the moment the performance

:55:29.:55:35.

side of things... You cannot have one without the other and despite

:55:36.:55:39.

the Davis cup success that side of things is in a little bit of a mess

:55:40.:55:45.

at the moment. The nominees for the BBC sports personality of the year

:55:46.:55:49.

award have been announced and this year the short list is quite long.

:55:50.:55:54.

Which one of these will lift the trophy? It will be decided in

:55:55.:55:59.

Belfast on the 20th of December and you will be able to vote on the

:56:00.:56:13.

night by phone and online. Welcome if you have just joined us. We are

:56:14.:56:19.

here until 11am. We will bring you breaking news and developing stories

:56:20.:56:24.

plus lots of reaction to our conversation about models. Rosie

:56:25.:56:29.

Nelson who is a size 8-10 is calling for a change in the law to prevent

:56:30.:56:33.

young models being pressurised into becoming dangerously thin. Someone

:56:34.:56:40.

says there is no reason for models to look like a hat rack. Someone

:56:41.:56:46.

else says having suffered with anorexia any legislation that saves

:56:47.:56:52.

lives is worth it. Someone says fashion models are not

:56:53.:56:54.

representative of the wider population and should not be sticks

:56:55.:57:01.

onshore. Someone else seeing our designers admitting their clothes

:57:02.:57:06.

only look good on anorexic models? Someone else thanks Rosie for

:57:07.:57:11.

speaking out. Someone says there is no reason for models to look like a

:57:12.:57:14.

hat rack... I said that one already! It is always great to hear

:57:15.:57:21.

from you and we will bring you more of your comments later. You can

:57:22.:57:26.

watch the programme online wherever you are, they add the BBC News app,

:57:27.:57:33.

or on the website. You can subscribe to our features on the news app by

:57:34.:57:37.

going to our topics and searching Victoria Derbyshire. Jimmy Oliver

:57:38.:57:41.

says there ought to be Druze restrictions on energy drinks to

:57:42.:57:45.

prevent young children drinking them in schools. He is campaigning for a

:57:46.:57:50.

sugar tax and says sugar is as serious a threat to the nation's

:57:51.:57:56.

health as tobacco. He had been speaking in the House of Commons

:57:57.:57:57.

yesterday. You described this

:57:58.:58:01.

as being the biggest war right now. Yes,

:58:02.:58:04.

if you look at the deaths caused by diet-related disease in Britain

:58:05.:58:07.

today, they are astronomical. If you look at the amount of people

:58:08.:58:09.

in hospital because of diet-related We talk about obesity a lot,

:58:10.:58:12.

but diet-related disease is huge. So I think

:58:13.:58:17.

when you are drilling into things like type 2 diabetes, which is

:58:18.:58:21.

nearly 10% of the whole NHS budget, And because it is slow

:58:22.:58:25.

and it slowly takes the shine off people and their health

:58:26.:58:33.

and their productivity and their life expectancy, because

:58:34.:58:35.

it is so slow, it is not dramatic. And it doesn't command the kind

:58:36.:58:53.

of actions that are appropriate to protect our kids right now

:58:54.:58:56.

in Britain. Would you describe sugar

:58:57.:58:57.

as the new tobacco? Sugar is delicious

:58:58.:58:59.

and we are programmed to love it. But the question is,

:59:00.:59:03.

when businesses that trade it, when they become so successful

:59:04.:59:05.

at the cost of our children's health, when does it become

:59:06.:59:08.

a debate in a place like this? Can they all exponentially grow

:59:09.:59:11.

every year and get more of it Our kids,

:59:12.:59:14.

it is widely recognised that So for me, the concept of a sugary

:59:15.:59:18.

drinks tax - which is your tax, it's not for the money to go anywhere,

:59:19.:59:25.

the money is going to go to schools and to hospitals, and to do things

:59:26.:59:28.

in the community that promote good health - the concept of this is only

:59:29.:59:31.

because sugary drinks are the single largest source of sugar in

:59:32.:59:35.

our children's and teenagers' diet. But if you're effectively equating

:59:36.:59:39.

that with tobacco in public health terms, should there be age limits

:59:40.:59:43.

on the sale of fizzy drinks in the I have spent a lot of time

:59:44.:59:46.

in primary schools And when you see seven

:59:47.:59:52.

and eight-year-old kids pulling out cans of energy drinks, you know -

:59:53.:00:00.

and you know all the brands, with caffeine and all sorts of things

:00:01.:00:03.

in there - that is upsetting. And when those kids drink them,

:00:04.:00:06.

which they are not allowed to, but they get them - there is no

:00:07.:00:09.

standards for lunch boxes So absolutely, for energy drinks

:00:10.:00:12.

there should be age restrictions But as far

:00:13.:00:16.

as other regular sugary drinks, no, Good clarity goes

:00:17.:00:20.

a long way with the British public. When you give them good clear

:00:21.:00:28.

information they make good choices. But I think at the moment for me

:00:29.:00:32.

it feels like, you know, confusion You seem to be pinning it all

:00:33.:00:36.

on the industry. I think it is not just the food

:00:37.:01:03.

and drinks industry, it is not just education, it is not just

:01:04.:01:08.

the Government, of course parents But I think Britain has gone

:01:09.:01:12.

through an incredible 40 years. The food industry has developed

:01:13.:01:19.

a lot in 40 years. To be a British parent these days

:01:20.:01:21.

is, I think, very challenging, if The capacity for you to make

:01:22.:01:25.

the wrong choice is much easier Not just in availability,

:01:26.:01:29.

but you might have come from a family - and there are many -

:01:30.:01:33.

that didn't have parents that cooked at home and you didn't learn

:01:34.:01:36.

to cook at school either. So this is part

:01:37.:01:39.

of a big holistic plan. The sugary drinks tax is

:01:40.:01:41.

the hardest subject. But when people understand this

:01:42.:01:43.

money is theirs to be spent on good, to protect the most disadvantaged

:01:44.:01:47.

as well, people generally seen to And actually, bizarrely,

:01:48.:01:50.

it is polling quite well in the polls with regard to

:01:51.:01:53.

understanding it, being OK with it. And I think that is quite rare

:01:54.:01:56.

for a tax of any kind. One person who does not seem to be

:01:57.:02:00.

coming around to it is He has publicly said he

:02:01.:02:03.

doesn't see the case for it. I know you have had what you said

:02:04.:02:08.

were robust conversations with him. Look, when I have seen Mr Cameron

:02:09.:02:11.

on a couple of occasions he has taken this very seriously, and he

:02:12.:02:16.

is open-minded to all options. So does he say something

:02:17.:02:19.

different to you from what he No, flouting around the concept of a

:02:20.:02:21.

tax is not the fastest way to make But ultimately this conversation,

:02:22.:02:26.

and the reason I am committed to this for the long term, is that we

:02:27.:02:33.

can't just keep looking at child We can't just look at the cost

:02:34.:02:37.

of it. We can't let that facilitate

:02:38.:02:42.

a collapse in the NHS. But does David Cameron

:02:43.:02:45.

buy this argument? And if he buys the argument you are

:02:46.:02:48.

putting forward, I think he is open-minded

:02:49.:02:50.

to everything. I think he wants to do

:02:51.:02:58.

something that is robust. Let's see how brave

:02:59.:03:01.

and robust he is. That's why I can't wait to see what

:03:02.:03:04.

the childhood obesity strategy This kind of action here today

:03:05.:03:06.

in Parliament is about setting, I guess, the foundations for this,

:03:07.:03:11.

really. Let's debate -

:03:12.:03:13.

has business gone too far? Should they be allowed to

:03:14.:03:19.

do anything they want? Is it OK for them to always market

:03:20.:03:22.

to our kids in certain ways I think when you are looking

:03:23.:03:26.

at the cost of ill health of Britain and British kids,

:03:27.:03:31.

it doesn't take a rocket scientist You have got supermarkets having buy

:03:32.:03:35.

one get one free promotions all the time and they are weighted

:03:36.:03:45.

in favour of the sugary snacks, If you have got that still going on,

:03:46.:03:48.

this tax could be a complete waste It won't be a waste of time, because

:03:49.:03:54.

what you'll get is a raising of funds that will facilitate some

:03:55.:03:59.

incredible initiatives around Britain, in education, in

:04:00.:04:03.

schools and in the health service. The important thing is, let's not

:04:04.:04:06.

just focus on the sugary drinks tax. It needs to be 50 to 100 points

:04:07.:04:12.

of activations happening in labelling, teaspoons, facilitating

:04:13.:04:19.

and funding activities in schools, looking at advertising, marketing

:04:20.:04:22.

to our kids online, prime time. We are focusing on

:04:23.:04:26.

the sugary drinks tax because that What about getting tougher

:04:27.:04:32.

on supermarkets? I think to be a modern-day

:04:33.:04:40.

supermarket they will have to start addressing doing more with regards

:04:41.:04:43.

to inspiring their customers to shop more efficiently, more healthily,

:04:44.:04:48.

save money on the healthier options, make it easier -

:04:49.:04:52.

even if you look at waste and what is graded in and out of vegetables

:04:53.:04:55.

from British farmers, now there's And actually I am starting to see

:04:56.:04:59.

now changes of behaviour in a handful of supermarkets are doing

:05:00.:05:05.

some really interesting initiatives. So I think that is why I

:05:06.:05:09.

say now is the moment. Because to single it out on just a

:05:10.:05:12.

tax - everything has got to change. The CEOs of companies

:05:13.:05:17.

in this country need to be much more switched on for waste

:05:18.:05:21.

and environment and making it easier for British people to make better

:05:22.:05:25.

choices, for sure. Final question - what do you want

:05:26.:05:30.

the politicians to do after this? A lot of people are saying,

:05:31.:05:34.

there are a lot of people who are obese out there and they do not even

:05:35.:05:41.

drink sugary drinks. The focus on sugary,

:05:42.:05:44.

sweetened drinks is because they are the biggest single largest source

:05:45.:05:46.

of in our kids' diets. There's lots

:05:47.:05:49.

of modelling that support financial And like I said, it was symbolic of

:05:50.:05:54.

change that we tackled the hardest thing to tackle, which is actually

:05:55.:06:00.

saying, no, enough is enough, OK? Now we're going to tax this

:06:01.:06:03.

because it is a bit of a problem. I have always said to Mr Cameron,

:06:04.:06:07.

if this wasn't to work, after three to five years, remove

:06:08.:06:10.

it, put a sunset clause on it. None

:06:11.:06:13.

of the things that I have come up with in my obesity strategy, if they

:06:14.:06:15.

don't work, you would remove them. You can measure it in terms

:06:16.:06:18.

of reduction in sales... And it works in Mexico

:06:19.:06:24.

and it works in France. And you will get a drop of

:06:25.:06:33.

of consumption and you will raise funds that must be hypothecated to

:06:34.:06:37.

be spent in places of need, which This is at the front line

:06:38.:06:40.

of saving the NHS. This is at the front line

:06:41.:06:44.

of creating it. The tax is a splash, but is the

:06:45.:06:46.

ripples that are truly powerful. It is all

:06:47.:06:53.

of those other initiatives that give Loads of you getting in touch.

:06:54.:07:06.

Tarrin says, really interesting debate. Geoff says well done for

:07:07.:07:11.

raising the problem of energy drinks among young children, this is a big

:07:12.:07:15.

problem. Simon says, oh, my days, just found myself agreeing with

:07:16.:07:20.

Jamie Oliver. Andy on Facebook says there should be an age restriction

:07:21.:07:24.

on listening to Jamie Oliver and his drivel. All this week we are looking

:07:25.:07:29.

at the best ways of tackling childhood obesity, it's a problem

:07:30.:07:33.

which could soon cost us more than smoking, war, alcohol and climate

:07:34.:07:37.

change. Today, Jim Reid has been looking at whether food must have

:07:38.:07:40.

beeners can do more to strip out sugar from the food they produce.

:07:41.:08:00.

A typical loaf of bread has 40% less salt in it than it did in the '80s.

:08:01.:08:10.

It worked with salt, can we do the same thing with sugar? This is what

:08:11.:08:14.

happened behind closed doors, when the

:08:15.:08:14.

food industry gets together. A colossal trade show to sell the

:08:15.:08:23.

stuff we could be eating and drinking next year. Walking through

:08:24.:08:34.

the stands, there's hundreds of exhibitors. You notice every stand

:08:35.:08:44.

is touting health messages. One of the next changes you can expect to

:08:45.:08:48.

see is the growth of natural alternatives to sugar. This plant,

:08:49.:08:55.

Stevia, is 200 times as sweet with none of the calories. Unheard of

:08:56.:09:00.

four years ago, it's already used in dozens of big brands, often it's

:09:01.:09:04.

introduced gradually. Would the consumer know there's this in the

:09:05.:09:09.

product? How does it work? It doesn't depend on us as a supplier

:09:10.:09:14.

but every single brand or manufacturer, some will list Stevia

:09:15.:09:18.

on the front of the label, others choose not to shout about it for

:09:19.:09:21.

various reasons, it could be because it's an every day product and they

:09:22.:09:26.

don't want to confuse consumers. For big supermarkets, it's that same

:09:27.:09:30.

juggling act, they say they want to move people away from unhealthy

:09:31.:09:35.

foods but can't afford to frighten customers off. There is a huge

:09:36.:09:39.

danger. Customers know who they like and like what they know and

:09:40.:09:43.

unfortunately there is a gradual experience they need to go through

:09:44.:09:47.

to ensure they get that. We cannot just a take a population ingrained

:09:48.:09:52.

in their eating habits and ex-them to change overnight.

:09:53.:09:55.

We are in the hi-tech kitchen of what used to be the agricultural

:09:56.:09:59.

college in Nottingham, learning how to bake a cake the right way. We are

:10:00.:10:06.

going to add the sugar or sugar substitute to the margarine and

:10:07.:10:11.

cream it together. The sugar adds to the sweetness and the pleasant

:10:12.:10:16.

flavour. But also it adds texture to it. It also has a caramelising

:10:17.:10:22.

effect so it browns, so it'ses a they wantically pleasing and we eat

:10:23.:10:25.

with our eyes. If it doesn't look nice, we are not going to eat it.

:10:26.:10:31.

So it has those things. If you start to take sugar away from it, those

:10:32.:10:39.

things may well be changed. Seven different cakes all with different

:10:40.:10:43.

levels of sugar or artificial sweeteners. Some better tasting than

:10:44.:10:49.

others. But if obesity is, as the Government says; the biggest public

:10:50.:10:52.

health threat facing our children, we might have to accept our food

:10:53.:10:56.

will have to change and the companies selling us that stuff will

:10:57.:10:59.

have to work harder to come up with recipes that are not just good for

:11:00.:11:02.

our palate, but good for our waistlines as well.

:11:03.:11:08.

Let's bring you some breaking news we are getting about the number of

:11:09.:11:13.

refugees and migrants reaching Europe via the Mediterranean. The

:11:14.:11:17.

numbers through for November. Interestingly, they show a very big

:11:18.:11:24.

drop from October. The figures for November, 140,000, compared with

:11:25.:11:27.

220,000 in October. So, that is obviously a very big

:11:28.:11:33.

drop, but UNHCR is saying the numbers are still high. UNHCR has

:11:34.:11:41.

put out these figures. Still to come before 11; a group

:11:42.:11:43.

that claims to hate and resent Still to come before 11; a group

:11:44.:11:47.

people has been handing out cards to women on the tube telling them they

:11:48.:11:52.

are a fat, ugly human. We'll bring you the details. First, there'll be

:11:53.:11:56.

a full day of debate in the House of Commons tomorrow on allowing British

:11:57.:11:59.

air strikes in Syria. The Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn, who had called

:12:00.:12:02.

for a two-day debate, is accusing the Prime Minister of a rush to war.

:12:03.:12:06.

But David Cameron says military action in Syria has growing support

:12:07.:12:10.

and is the right thing to do. Enit comes to a vote, will enough

:12:11.:12:15.

MPs back him? Norman Smith has been crunching the numbers. He did say he

:12:16.:12:19.

wouldn't go to a vote if he wasn't sure he'd win it, so tell us how the

:12:20.:12:23.

numbers look like they are going to break down? You are right, Number

:12:24.:12:26.

Ten is very confident they can win it. That is why they are moving

:12:27.:12:31.

quickly. We'll get the motion which will be debated in the next hour or

:12:32.:12:35.

so and I'm told that will be an inclusive motion, so it won't just

:12:36.:12:39.

talk about bombing IS and Sir yarks there'll be a lot about the

:12:40.:12:42.

humanitarian and diplomatic plan, strong references to the fact there

:12:43.:12:47.

is now a UN Resolution and then Number Ten

:12:48.:12:50.

is now a UN Resolution and then going to do away with Prime

:12:51.:12:52.

Minister's Questions tomorrow -- Syria. So the whole day from 11.

:12:53.:12:58.

302010 o'clock at night can be devoted exclusively to the debate on

:12:59.:13:02.

Syria. But the expectation is Mr Cameron will get a comfortable

:13:03.:13:11.

majority -. Mr Cameron's got to be looking at getting around 325 on

:13:12.:13:16.

board. He's got 330 MPs, but the expectation is only around 320

:13:17.:13:21.

roughly supporting him tomorrow. There's about ten or so who're

:13:22.:13:29.

likely to oppose military action. However, Mr Cameron will be butt

:13:30.:13:34.

rested by about 50 or more Labour MPs because it's thought at least

:13:35.:13:39.

50, and it could rise beyond that of Labour MPs, will support him. That's

:13:40.:13:44.

his safety net which kind of guarantees him victory. On top of

:13:45.:13:49.

that, there's probably about another ten or so who're either members of

:13:50.:13:54.

the Democratic Unionist party. There might be the odd Lib Dem straggler,

:13:55.:13:59.

so you get around another ten who'll also back Mr Cameron. So when you

:14:00.:14:04.

stack all that up together, you've got 320 Tories, 50 or so Labour,

:14:05.:14:11.

you've got around ten others, as it were, putting you at around 380,

:14:12.:14:16.

well above the 325 you need and it may go higher than that. David

:14:17.:14:20.

Cameron may do better. The truth is, by 10 o'clock

:14:21.:14:24.

tomorrow, the House of Commons will almost certainly have voted for

:14:25.:14:28.

military action and the working assumption is that military ache

:14:29.:14:34.

strikes will start soon afterwards. A public debate about whether

:14:35.:14:37.

there'll be a free vote. The position is now clear, but where

:14:38.:14:39.

does this all heave Labour right now? I think calling it a public

:14:40.:14:45.

debate is a very charitable description Joanna, it's been more

:14:46.:14:52.

like a fist fight. Jeremy Corbyn faced a mutiny in Cabinet yesterday

:14:53.:14:56.

and was forced to concede that there can be a free vote, they can speak

:14:57.:15:01.

against bombing and can interpret party policy pretty much as they

:15:02.:15:08.

want, albeit Hilary Benn, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, I mean we do have

:15:09.:15:11.

the rather odd situation let's be honest that Jeremy Corbyn will start

:15:12.:15:16.

the debate for Labour and speak against bombing, Hilary Benn who'll

:15:17.:15:20.

conclude it will speak for bombing. That said, Mr Benn this morning was

:15:21.:15:25.

charitable to Mr Core bun saying this is new politics, we are doing

:15:26.:15:28.

things differently. Listen to what he said -- Mr Corbyn. People have

:15:29.:15:33.

strongly held views on this and it's perfectly possible for people to

:15:34.:15:35.

reach different conclusions because the views are sincerely held. That's

:15:36.:15:40.

the strength of our politics, isn't that what people want

:15:41.:15:44.

Parliamentarians to do, weigh up the voices, what they themselves think

:15:45.:15:45.

and reach a conclusion? We will set out what we think. That

:15:46.:16:02.

is a different kind of politics to the one maybe you are used about the

:16:03.:16:07.

right thing to do in those circumstances. Jeremy Corbyn's

:16:08.:16:11.

difficult they did not end there. It carried on at the meeting of the

:16:12.:16:15.

Parliamentary Labour Party yesterday evening where there was a great

:16:16.:16:21.

delight at Jeremy Corbyn not for his stance on air strikes, the

:16:22.:16:25.

overwhelming majority seem to back him on air strikes, what they are

:16:26.:16:35.

unhappy about is the way he has handled this saga, that he tried to

:16:36.:16:39.

go, that is the view, to put the squeeze on their MPs to back him.

:16:40.:16:43.

But was a lot of anger about that. One senior Labour MP emerged from

:16:44.:16:48.

the meeting and said gleefully it had been the most uplifting meeting

:16:49.:16:51.

he had been too because Jeremy Corbyn had had such a going over.

:16:52.:16:57.

People criticising him were not just the usual suspects, Margaret Beckett

:16:58.:17:03.

warning about how he was dividing the party. A lot of criticism of his

:17:04.:17:08.

supporters in particular Ken Livingstone. In part because he

:17:09.:17:12.

suggested the other day that the 7/7 bombers had laid down their lives

:17:13.:17:18.

because of their views on Iraq and he was directly attacked and

:17:19.:17:23.

criticised very strongly for that I a Labour MP. A very bruising meeting

:17:24.:17:30.

for Jeremy Corbyn supporters. Stay with us because listening to that is

:17:31.:17:34.

Ken Livingstone, the former mayor of London. Angela Smith was at the

:17:35.:17:42.

meeting last night. She backs air strikes in Syria. She is with us in

:17:43.:17:52.

the studio. As is the Labour MP for Edinburgh South Ian Murray who is

:17:53.:17:56.

Labour's shadow Scottish secretary and plans to vote against air

:17:57.:18:01.

strikes in Syria. What did you see in the meeting last night? I made it

:18:02.:18:06.

clear that Ken Livingstone's remarks about the 7/7 bombings weren't

:18:07.:18:11.

tiredly unacceptable. The vast majority of the British public will

:18:12.:18:16.

be appalled with what he said to effectively blamed Tony Blair and

:18:17.:18:19.

Western values for the attacks on London on that day. It was totally

:18:20.:18:27.

unacceptable and he has made himself unfit to chair the review and I

:18:28.:18:32.

think he should resign. He is joining us. Maybe put that to him.

:18:33.:18:39.

Are you going to resign? Do you accept you have alienating the vast

:18:40.:18:44.

majority of the British public? Not at all. Then the two days following

:18:45.:18:49.

what I said something like 40 or 50 be both stopped me on the street to

:18:50.:18:53.

say I agree with everything you said and nobody has criticised me apart

:18:54.:18:59.

from MPs and the media. I have never told a lie in public life. We know

:19:00.:19:04.

those four suicide bombers who were born and brought up in Britain, part

:19:05.:19:10.

of our life and culture, were turned against and prepared to blow

:19:11.:19:14.

themselves up in order to kill 52 Londoners on the streets and if you

:19:15.:19:19.

go on the messages they left as they recorded by they were doing this

:19:20.:19:22.

they said was because of our invasion of Iraq and Tony Blair was

:19:23.:19:27.

told by security services if you invade Iraq it increases the risk of

:19:28.:19:31.

a terrorist attack which is why I am really worried about more bombing

:19:32.:19:38.

over Syria because troops on the ground, unless you put them, they

:19:39.:19:43.

will be prepared to kill more British people. Is he right? No.

:19:44.:19:50.

This is tantamount to blaming our society for what is happening in the

:19:51.:19:53.

Middle East and the streets of Western capitals across the world.

:19:54.:20:00.

That is entirely unacceptable. The fanaticism that characterises

:20:01.:20:03.

Al-Qaeda and I so cannot be laid at the door of Western values that

:20:04.:20:08.

stand for freedom, liberty and the rates of the individual to live life

:20:09.:20:12.

with in the role of the law as he or she once. -- rights, the rights of

:20:13.:20:18.

women, are so important to our society. Ken just keeps making the

:20:19.:20:26.

same mistake over and over again. 40 or 50 people may have had something

:20:27.:20:30.

to say but there are millions more across the country who will be

:20:31.:20:49.

appalled that his attitude. I agree that our values are something we

:20:50.:20:52.

should defend. You are not in your head. I think terrorists are

:20:53.:20:54.

terrorists wherever they are in the world. I was appalled by what I

:20:55.:20:57.

heard from Ken Livingstone on Thursday the majority of people will

:20:58.:21:01.

be appalled. He has the opportunity to apologise for that. It is deeply

:21:02.:21:06.

regretful that we are going through a huge sensible and adult debate

:21:07.:21:09.

that the moment about the Middle East, Syria, Iraq, terrorism. There

:21:10.:21:15.

are people on the streets of Britain fearful about what may happen in

:21:16.:21:18.

terms of what happened in Paris and capital cities around the world and

:21:19.:21:24.

for a senior respected politician to go on to Question Time and see such

:21:25.:21:27.

dreadful shameful things is unacceptable. I think he should not

:21:28.:21:33.

only apologise but he should remove himself from that defence review.

:21:34.:21:40.

Will you apologise? I told the truth. I am not going to apologise

:21:41.:21:45.

for telling the truth. Those four suicide bombers, the message they

:21:46.:21:50.

left was that they were doing this because of our involvement in Iraq.

:21:51.:21:56.

This is not a one-off. All our life we have been involving ourselves,

:21:57.:22:01.

invading Egypt, offering humiliating defeat, we should stay out of the

:22:02.:22:05.

Middle East unless we have a strategy and it is not a strategy

:22:06.:22:10.

just a bomb. You have to defeat Isil on the ground as we did with Nazi

:22:11.:22:15.

Germany and create democracy afterwards. Just bombing at is not

:22:16.:22:21.

going to do that. You cannot win a war by just bombing. Your choice of

:22:22.:22:25.

words is interesting because you described the suicide bombers as

:22:26.:22:29.

having given the lives, making a sacrifice. Is that the right sort of

:22:30.:22:38.

language? I did not say sacrifice. These were four boys born and

:22:39.:22:42.

brought up in this country who had watched television and been part of

:22:43.:22:47.

our culture and sat in a room and decided to blow themselves apart in

:22:48.:22:50.

order to kill lots of innocent Londoners. We cannot deny that. That

:22:51.:22:56.

is what they said. That seems like an apologist for terrorism. They sat

:22:57.:23:02.

in a room and consciously decided to kill innocent people. That is

:23:03.:23:06.

unacceptable and to apologise for that is also unacceptable and he

:23:07.:23:10.

should do the right thing and remove himself from front-line Labour Party

:23:11.:23:13.

politics and apologise to the British people for what is a

:23:14.:23:19.

deplorable way to conduct himself. The deputy general secretary of the

:23:20.:23:25.

union and the bus driver of the bus that was blown up in Tavistock

:23:26.:23:28.

Square was a member of the union and that is one of the reasons he was so

:23:29.:23:33.

angry last night, that one of his members was involved in that attack,

:23:34.:23:37.

and to have Ken defending those who committed that atrocity is exactly

:23:38.:23:42.

why he should apologise and resign from the review. That is a lie. I am

:23:43.:23:48.

not defending them. I am not apologising for them. I recruited

:23:49.:23:53.

the thousands of extra police are we could defeat terrorism in London. I

:23:54.:23:58.

went and met the victims and families afterwards and shared their

:23:59.:24:02.

grief. One of my staff had their legs blown off in that. I am not

:24:03.:24:07.

apologising for this. I put in place the mechanisms that allowed us to

:24:08.:24:11.

stop almost all the terrorist attacks. What they did is

:24:12.:24:16.

outrageous. I did not apologise for them or justify what they are

:24:17.:24:20.

doing. I told the truth that Tony Blair was warned if you go into Iraq

:24:21.:24:25.

you increase the risk of a terrorist attack in this country and I am sure

:24:26.:24:29.

that is exactly what David Cameron is doing now. In terms of further

:24:30.:24:36.

action,... I want to bring you before we move on to what happens

:24:37.:24:43.

next an email from someone whose sister was killed in Russell Square

:24:44.:24:50.

. She says we love again with our grief when we hear comments like

:24:51.:24:56.

that. It is not intelligent, it is the comment of a stupid man who

:24:57.:25:02.

wants to upset people. Someone whose son David died at Edgeware Road says

:25:03.:25:08.

not only is he accepting their excuses by saying they have a cause,

:25:09.:25:13.

he is legitimising terrorism and giving them an identity they do not

:25:14.:25:19.

deserve. As a senior politician I struggle to see how he can do that.

:25:20.:25:25.

He has no sympathy for the victims' families. What do you say to those

:25:26.:25:29.

relatives? Do not believe the interpretation of this. They are

:25:30.:25:35.

listening to your words. They are listening to you now and that is

:25:36.:25:43.

what they say. I'd put in place thousands of extra police to make it

:25:44.:25:47.

more difficult for them to do that. We did a lot to work with the

:25:48.:25:54.

victims and their families of those who died and the survivors. I

:25:55.:25:59.

denounced what they dead and I denounce it today but we have to

:26:00.:26:03.

recognise they did not do it without a political reason and Tony Blair

:26:04.:26:06.

increased risk of that terrorist attack when he took the decision to

:26:07.:26:11.

invade Iraq based on Eli. There was no threat to us from weapons of mass

:26:12.:26:17.

destruction. It cost not just the lives of 52 Londoners but hundreds

:26:18.:26:21.

of our troops who were sent into a war a falsehood. Norman wants to

:26:22.:26:28.

come in. After last night's meeting of the Parliamentary Labour party,

:26:29.:26:37.

Jeremy Corbyn was asked directly and he absolutely did not give his

:26:38.:26:41.

support again get Livingstone's remarks. It seems Ken Livingstone is

:26:42.:26:45.

on his own because Jeremy Corbyn is not backing him on this. It would

:26:46.:26:51.

seem to me that Ken Livingstone is pretty much on his own. Is it time

:26:52.:26:59.

for you to back down? You heard what Norman was saying about Jeremy

:27:00.:27:04.

Corbyn's spokesperson. All my life and politics people have said to me

:27:05.:27:09.

why did you say that? My response has been, because it is true. Go on

:27:10.:27:15.

data from then. You will have it on record. There are the terrorists

:27:16.:27:20.

saying we did this because of Iraq. I do not think they were lying. That

:27:21.:27:26.

is exactly why they did it. There will be people in Syria in Isil

:27:27.:27:31.

thinking if they start bombing they will make more of an attempt to come

:27:32.:27:36.

over here and kill more Brits. You were widely praised at the time of

:27:37.:27:41.

the events in London in 2005. Why do you seem determined... It is very

:27:42.:27:47.

hard for Labour Party members to understand why you seem determined

:27:48.:27:53.

to destroy that record. I am not destroying the record, I am telling

:27:54.:27:57.

the truth. Are you telling me those bombers did not do this because of

:27:58.:28:01.

our invasion of Iraq? Are you telling me Tony Blair was not warned

:28:02.:28:06.

this would make us a target? Most of us find it really hard and

:28:07.:28:10.

impossible to understand what motivates suicide bombers. How can

:28:11.:28:16.

you possibly assume you understand? 9/11 was before Iraq and there were

:28:17.:28:20.

terrorists blowing up planes and telling innocent people. People all

:28:21.:28:27.

over the world are uneasy about what is happening in the Middle East.

:28:28.:28:31.

Angela and I disagree on the solution but we absolutely agree

:28:32.:28:35.

that Ken Livingstone's comments were unacceptable and given the two

:28:36.:28:39.

emails you have had from relatives of people who were killed, that sums

:28:40.:28:43.

up the mood of the country and Ken Livingstone would do himself good if

:28:44.:28:51.

he apologised. Will you apologise? I am not going to apologise for a lie

:28:52.:28:54.

that is being perpetrated in the media. I did not support the

:28:55.:28:59.

terrorists. We put in place the measures to defeat them. I did not

:29:00.:29:04.

justify what they do but we have to understand why they do it. The

:29:05.:29:09.

information I have from this comes from the Counter Terrorism Unit

:29:10.:29:12.

which was trying to find out reasons and motivation. You're not going to

:29:13.:29:18.

defeat this terrorism if you do not understand the causes of it. We have

:29:19.:29:22.

been intervening in the Arab world Rover 100 years always with

:29:23.:29:29.

disastrous consequences and unless we can build a genuine United

:29:30.:29:36.

Nations force to go and defeat Isis we will be standing here in a few

:29:37.:29:39.

weeks or months discussing the loss of life due to another terrorist

:29:40.:29:45.

attack in Britain. We should not be supporting air strikes in Iraq on

:29:46.:29:49.

that basis. I do not understand why so many people opposed to air

:29:50.:29:54.

strikes in Syria have nothing to say about the fact we are engaged in

:29:55.:30:00.

Iraq on air strikes. We are stuck in Iraq because of that legacy. Isil

:30:01.:30:07.

does not recognise borders. They ignore that and move backwards and

:30:08.:30:12.

forwards. The only way you are going to defeat them is with troops on the

:30:13.:30:15.

ground. The Nazis were bombing London night after night in the

:30:16.:30:19.

Blitz and it did not break our will. My mum got up every morning

:30:20.:30:26.

and went off to work in a passion. Sometimes 500 Londoners were killed

:30:27.:30:29.

in a night and it did not break our will. There has to be troops on the

:30:30.:30:34.

ground and a broad coalition. It cannot be seen as another American

:30:35.:30:37.

intervention looking after oil interests. I disagree with Angela

:30:38.:30:44.

that we should not be extending air strikes into Syria because there is

:30:45.:30:48.

no ground troop back-up to hold the ground that is gained. In Iraq there

:30:49.:30:54.

is limited air strikes but there is Kurdish and Iraqi forces on the

:30:55.:30:58.

ground able to advance into that ground and whole background. What

:30:59.:31:03.

Ken Livingstone is saying is that is acceptable but it is not acceptable

:31:04.:31:07.

in Syria and I agree but you cannot see it is OK to do it any Iraq now

:31:08.:31:13.

but not in 2003 and blame that on the terrorist attack in London. It

:31:14.:31:15.

is intellectually incoherent. It just happens to be what those

:31:16.:31:25.

terrorists who took 52 Londoners' lives gave as their motive. Doesn't

:31:26.:31:33.

the fact that the border between Iraq and Syria has effectively

:31:34.:31:36.

disappeared somewhat change the picture and, is it not the case as

:31:37.:31:40.

well, that this isn't just about military ache strikes, it's also

:31:41.:31:44.

about supporting the free Syrians on the ground and ensuring that we have

:31:45.:31:49.

the diplomatic initiatives in place to support? We need to create the

:31:50.:31:54.

space by putting Isil on the defensive, by degrading Isil, before

:31:55.:31:58.

we even think about seriously taking forward the diplomatic and political

:31:59.:32:05.

initiatives. Is that not the case? Well, the simple fact is that the

:32:06.:32:11.

vast bulk of what's called the Free Syrian Army are not much different

:32:12.:32:15.

from Isil and we haven't heard Cameron saying there's 70,000 troops

:32:16.:32:19.

on ground, the Americans think it's about 35,000, but many of those are

:32:20.:32:24.

extremist fanatics as well. You are not going to be able to assemble a

:32:25.:32:29.

Kurdish inside Syria because of the state of it. We have to have

:32:30.:32:32.

intervention from troops abroad if we are to defeat Isis. Have you read

:32:33.:32:37.

the response to the committee report? Have you actually read it?

:32:38.:32:42.

Yes. So you'll have seen... I've seen... It's work going on, not just

:32:43.:32:49.

to support the Syrians who've taken Isil territory and who've taken

:32:50.:32:55.

territory in Syria, there's a lot of support going in there to establish

:32:56.:32:58.

civic and political structures to stabilise those parts of Syria that

:32:59.:33:03.

are in the hands of the free Syrians and surely therefore it's ridiculous

:33:04.:33:07.

to argue that all the Free Syrian Armies are made up of Isil

:33:08.:33:13.

sympathisers, surely? I'm not arguing that, I'm saying some are

:33:14.:33:19.

from different ethnic backgrounds, it's an horrendous Civil War going

:33:20.:33:22.

on there, you are not about to see a nice group of liberal minded

:33:23.:33:26.

democrats coming together to defeat Assad and Isis, if you are going to

:33:27.:33:30.

do something, it has to be ground troops from outside coming in and

:33:31.:33:34.

establishing a fair and democratic system for the future. I want to

:33:35.:33:40.

bring in some comments before we wrap up what obviously has been a

:33:41.:33:44.

lively conversation. Craig saying, I'm not a great fan of Ken

:33:45.:33:46.

Livingstone but he's absolutely correct, why don't the BBC report

:33:47.:33:50.

the facts rather than bowing to the current political agenda, it's

:33:51.:33:53.

disgusting. Nicola says, he's telling the truth and in no way

:33:54.:33:57.

defending terrorists. Miles says it's an appalling attitude of Ken

:33:58.:34:01.

Livingstone, I feel sick, he has no place on British politics. I'm

:34:02.:34:06.

furious, says another viewer, I think he should resign over his

:34:07.:34:10.

appalling comments on this and mental health which has alienated

:34:11.:34:13.

people suffering from mental health issues. A final thought from each of

:34:14.:34:17.

you, because this bombing looks almost certain is going to go ahead.

:34:18.:34:20.

Ken Livingstone, and I want you all to say your thoughts on this, does

:34:21.:34:26.

it make us safer or not? It won't make us safer in the short-term and

:34:27.:34:31.

therefore what we need to see is a real increase in domestic security

:34:32.:34:34.

and restoration of the cuts we have seen in policing here in London. We

:34:35.:34:39.

need police on the ground, they are very good at collecting information

:34:40.:34:43.

and passing on and helping to identify potential terrorists

:34:44.:34:44.

suspects. Ian? I don't think anyone can really

:34:45.:34:48.

answer that question with any certainty. I think the only thing

:34:49.:34:52.

you can do is get the Syrian state back to a democratic state where

:34:53.:34:56.

people and Syrians can go and return home and help the fight against Isil

:34:57.:35:00.

and Isis from that base. That's really the only thing that we can

:35:01.:35:03.

achieve at the moment, so I'm not sure anyone can answer

:35:04.:35:05.

achieve at the moment, so I'm not great certainty. Angela? I think

:35:06.:35:10.

that actually we are seriously at risk in any case

:35:11.:35:12.

that actually we are seriously at that engagement in the work of the

:35:13.:35:19.

coalition in Syria will make us, well, will increase the

:35:20.:35:22.

we are already involved in Iraq and the work of the coalition.

:35:23.:35:27.

we are already involved in Iraq and think actually we have very little

:35:28.:35:29.

choice other than to join our coalition allies. So let's remember,

:35:30.:35:35.

who's asked us to join this fight in Syria, so I really don't think we

:35:36.:35:39.

have any option. It's with no great sense of - I think the majority of

:35:40.:35:44.

people I've spoken to are in no way enthusiastic about this. There's no

:35:45.:35:51.

jingoism around any of this, no gung-ho attitudes, everyone's heavy

:35:52.:35:53.

hearted about this, but they don't see any choice.

:35:54.:35:58.

Thank you all very much. Angela Smith, Ian Murray, Ken Livingstone

:35:59.:36:02.

and Norman as well. A fault question component was a

:36:03.:36:06.

and Norman as well. major factor when a plane crashed

:36:07.:36:06.

into the Java Sea killing 162 people. The report into

:36:07.:36:12.

the crash found actions killing 162 people. The report into

:36:13.:36:18.

contributed to the disaster. Our correspondent is in Singapore. Tell

:36:19.:36:22.

us more? Well, the details of the report have

:36:23.:36:26.

us more? finally been released almost a year

:36:27.:36:27.

after that crash took finally been released almost a year

:36:28.:36:30.

all 162 people on board. finally been released almost a year

:36:31.:36:33.

remind the audience what happened. The plane was on its way to

:36:34.:36:41.

Singapore when it lost contact with air traffic control in Singapore and

:36:42.:36:45.

then disappeared off the radar screens. What investigators have

:36:46.:36:49.

been able to tell us today is that it appears there have a crack in one

:36:50.:36:53.

of the components on board if aircraft, setting off four warning

:36:54.:36:56.

signals for the pilots. As they tried to fix the problem, they lost

:36:57.:37:02.

control of the plane, basically resetting the plane and turning off

:37:03.:37:05.

the autopilot. Investigators said as a result of this accident on board,

:37:06.:37:09.

there was no way for the pilots to recover from the situation and that

:37:10.:37:12.

caused the plane to crash. Now, the boss of the airline, Tony

:37:13.:37:18.

Fernandez, has already been commenting on Twitter saying it's a

:37:19.:37:22.

massive tragedy not just for the people on board but for the families

:37:23.:37:26.

of those left behind and he said there were lots of lessons to be

:37:27.:37:29.

learnt for the industry and the airline itself.

:37:30.:37:35.

Thank you very much. Commuters on the London Underground

:37:36.:37:39.

are being handed cards telling them they are a fat, ugly human by a

:37:40.:37:43.

group claiming to hate and resent fat people.

:37:44.:37:47.

British Transport Police have asked anyone targeted to contact them. Our

:37:48.:37:53.

correspondent Helen Fawkes is here. What is going on? This all started

:37:54.:38:00.

after A person went on social media to share a card she was handed. It

:38:01.:38:07.

was reportedly done by an organisation calling itself

:38:08.:38:11.

Overweight Haters Ltd and a card which had the tagline:

:38:12.:38:36.

British Transport Police are watching what's happening. What do

:38:37.:38:41.

they say? Transport for London have said that all customers have the

:38:42.:38:45.

right to travel with confidence and they've called this a sad,

:38:46.:38:49.

unpleasant form of antisocial behaviour. They say it will not be

:38:50.:38:54.

tolerated and they are urging anyone who has something similar happening

:38:55.:38:57.

to them to come forward to police or station staff. Thank you.

:38:58.:39:00.

Psychiatrists have concluded that the Yorkshire Ripper,

:39:01.:39:03.

Peter Sutcliffe, is no longer mentally ill.

:39:04.:39:05.

They are recommending he's transferred to

:39:06.:39:07.

a specialist prison from Broadmoor high security hospital, where he's

:39:08.:39:09.

I'm Jack. I see you are still having no luck catching me. I have the

:39:10.:40:09.

greatest respect for you, George, but Lord, you are no nearer catching

:40:10.:40:14.

me now than four years ago when I started.

:40:15.:41:08.

The final decision on moving him will be made by the

:41:09.:41:11.

Now a model who was told to slim down before she got on the modelling

:41:12.:41:28.

books has told us why she's taking a petition to Downing Street. She's

:41:29.:41:32.

calling for a law to protect young models from becoming pressurised

:41:33.:41:36.

into becoming dangerously thin. She's a size 8-10 and is 23. When I

:41:37.:41:43.

went to an agency, I was like I was now, I was a size 8. They said they

:41:44.:41:48.

wanted me to slim down. How do they evaluate you? They measure you. Like

:41:49.:41:53.

a meat market? Every time you go into an agency, they'll measure you

:41:54.:41:56.

and say, you need to fix this and that. I went in and my hips were too

:41:57.:42:01.

big, they said I needed to slim down. I went away lost about ten

:42:02.:42:05.

pounds. You were told to slim down to the bone, that is the way they

:42:06.:42:11.

described it? Yes, I looked ill when I went back, I'd lost that much

:42:12.:42:14.

weight. They said we want you down to the bone. Tell us what you want?

:42:15.:42:22.

I mentioned the BMI rule in Paris? I want models to be healthier. How do

:42:23.:42:27.

you define that? Not pushing themselves in drastic ways to lose

:42:28.:42:31.

weight, so not just eating certain things like girls are eating cotton

:42:32.:42:35.

wool and popcorn to stay thin. Cotton wool? To fill up their

:42:36.:42:42.

stomachs, yes. I've had a friend say that's what happened at a show.

:42:43.:42:46.

Girls do such drastic things. They think modelling is going to be

:42:47.:42:49.

really promising, they want to be on the catwalk and do well and the

:42:50.:42:54.

agency want them to lose weight and you get praise if you are thin. So

:42:55.:42:59.

do the agencies need to be told, do not praise for thin? Yes, there

:43:00.:43:04.

needs to be a shift where agencies are more aware that healthiness is

:43:05.:43:08.

what matters and it should be the goal for the models. They shouldn't

:43:09.:43:15.

be pressuring us to lose weight. You can watch the full interview on our

:43:16.:43:18.

programme page which will be there shortly. If you missed Ken

:43:19.:43:22.

Livingstone in conversation with Angela Smith and Ian Murray for

:43:23.:43:26.

Labour a few moments ago, that'll be on the programme. Loads getting in

:43:27.:43:31.

touch on that one. Pete on twelfther says Ken is right. Phil says he is

:43:32.:43:37.

right, what is wrong with your other panelists, they are crazy. Claire

:43:38.:43:41.

says don't apologise for telling the truth, I agree. Another viewer says

:43:42.:43:46.

the bombers laid down their lives but the lives of 55 innocent

:43:47.:43:50.

Londoners, disgraceful. Thank you so much for your company and ail your

:43:51.:43:54.

comments today. I'm back tomorrow, have a lovely afternoon. Bye.

:43:55.:44:02.

Who is this dangerous renegade, this maverick,

:44:03.:44:05.

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