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In this interview there is some graphic detail of his alleged abuse. | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
Knowing that I am coming back to my family, it was hard | :00:09. | :00:17. | |
to believe, sitting in that aeroplane, thinking that definitely | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
thinking how I'm going to face it, how I am going to be with the kids. | :00:24. | :00:34. | |
And seeing your wife and your children, including your youngest, | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
who was born on the day you were transferred | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
to Guantanamo Bay, give us an insight into that moment. | :00:41. | :00:48. | |
I knew I was going to fall down and start crying. | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
So I thought, it's best for me just to go with my wife. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
My wife was going to guide me through it. | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
I thought, let me just see her, by herself. | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
Let her be comfortable again with me, | :01:01. | :01:01. | |
knowing what happened, how it happened. | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
I wanted to assure her I did not neglect her, I did not let her go. | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
She was crying and then I started crying. | :01:09. | :01:24. | |
And then your children, tell us about that. | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
I needed to know who they are, how they think, how they do things, | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
Did they run to you, did they hug you? | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
I was the one that was running to them. | :01:40. | :01:50. | |
Even though it has been a month and a little bit more, | :01:51. | :02:05. | |
but things change a little bit and they | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
start to realise that their dad loves them so much and he's trying | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
to do everything to comfort them, to be there for them. | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
And they are coming along, little by little. | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
What is it you are enjoying most about | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
Just to wake up and know that nobody is going to tell you what to do | :02:21. | :02:33. | |
Just to wake up without knowing you're going to be shackled, | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
I want to go back to 2001, if that's OK. | :02:38. | :02:46. | |
After living in London and marrying a British woman, | :02:47. | :02:54. | |
you decided to move to Afghanistan in 2001. | :02:55. | :02:55. | |
With your wife, who was pregnant I think, | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
I lived in this place for five years before I went to Afghanistan. | :02:58. | :03:06. | |
Four out of the five years I was homeless. | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
At the same time, the way my wife appeared, wearing the full niqab, | :03:12. | :03:19. | |
the way I was, wearing an Islamic dress and walking around, | :03:20. | :03:28. | |
you can see this guy is a very practising Muslim. | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
We were led to believe that you moved to Afghanistan | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
to work for a charity, is that not accurate? | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
It is not an official charity, as documented. | :03:42. | :03:43. | |
It was our own way of helping that society. | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
Sometime before Christmas you were captured by | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
the Northern Alliance, a group of fighters | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
They wanted me to say one thing and they would let me go. | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
That I worked with Osama Bin Laden and I was with Al-Qaeda. | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
You know, I wish I could film that film | :04:05. | :04:19. | |
Two days later, you were in American custody. | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
You were taken to Bagram airfield, and I think, | :04:23. | :04:24. | |
initially, you expected that the Americans would | :04:25. | :04:26. | |
As soon as you arrived, you say abuse by US soldiers began. | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
For example, you were taken to a concrete room and ordered | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
They ordered me to strip naked in front of a lot of men and women, | :04:37. | :04:45. | |
and soldiers, and it was shocking for me, it was shocking. | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
But actually they were doing it for the sake of the humiliation, | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
Alongside humiliation, you say there was beating | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
That is when somebody grabbed my head and smacked it | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
And all what I am trying to do is resist, hitting back, | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
My head was smacking the wall, back-and-forth, and then | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
Just my eyes are closed and, I'm you know, thinking, | :05:20. | :05:28. | |
Because you know, all that, my vision, I am sure is - | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
I can't even see what is going on, because everything in my mind | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
is running around, and as soon as I opened my eyes there | :05:40. | :05:41. | |
Just pain, pain after pain, I just, you know... | :05:42. | :05:50. | |
All I am trying to do is protect my head and trying | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
It is not like you can even think about it. | :05:54. | :06:04. | |
You know, all what you, I think all what you can think | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
about is how to save your head from blowing up. | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
And they sat me down, the wall behind me, and they start | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
talking to me, all of them at the same time. | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
One is an English accent, another with a Russian accent, | :06:17. | :06:24. | |
and two guys, the one who is the American, | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
he called himself Tony, and the other one is John. | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
Are you adamant that there was an English officer, | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
intelligence officer, agent in that room, when your head | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
I have no doubt he is an Englishman, because of the way he spoke, | :06:39. | :06:47. | |
the way he is very careful, the way he was sitting far away, | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
looking at me, you know, and because the day before, | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
"I'm with the MI5 intelligence service and I came to ask | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
So I have no doubt he was an Englishman. | :07:00. | :07:08. | |
Did this English intelligence officer take part in | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
Did he make any attempt to stop what was happening to you? | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
If what you have said is true, then he was complicit. | :07:17. | :07:27. | |
Because I hear it from others, not from him, not from John, | :07:28. | :07:37. | |
himself, but I hear it from others, that, | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
"Listen, this is all totally Americans." | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
But you said he could have intervened. | :07:44. | :07:44. | |
Do you believe that the then British Government, | :07:45. | :07:56. | |
they knew that people like you were allegedly | :07:57. | :07:57. | |
I do not want to say the Government, here. | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
I don't think it is to do with the Government, | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
as much as the intelligence services. | :08:05. | :08:05. | |
Which is totally, for me, different than Government. | :08:06. | :08:07. | |
Would you like to see the then Prime Minister Tony Blair | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
and the then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw held to account | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
for what you say happened to you at that time? | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
The only thing I would like to happen was for Tony Blair | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
and whoever was in the government at that time to tell the truth. | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
Do you believe Tony Blair knew what was going on at Bagram | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
If these guys at the head of state do not know, | :08:29. | :08:40. | |
After Bagram, you were moved to Kandahar. | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
First of all, when I get to Kandahar and they have something | :08:44. | :08:59. | |
called a welcoming party, where they really beat you up. | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
Yes, beating up, beating up with M16s, jumping on your back, | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
That is one of the times when I felt like I'm | :09:08. | :09:19. | |
not going to live that night, I'm not going to survive that night. | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
Praying, this is my last few minutes. | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
There were threats against your family at that time. | :09:31. | :09:42. | |
One particular interrogator threatened to sexually | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
Yes, that was the hardest thing, the hardest thing I ever heard. | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
It was the worst experience I ever had in my life. | :09:54. | :10:07. | |
That is the time he told me, "Your wife and your daughter | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
is with us, and if you do not start talking, we will rape your daughter | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
and you will hear her crying, Daddy, Daddy". | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
It was worse than the beating, worse than everything, | :10:22. | :10:29. | |
For three or four days I did not say a word. | :10:30. | :10:48. | |
You don't know, you want to hit him, you hate him, but I thought, I will | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
die before it ends. Did you genuinely believe | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
they had your wife and daughter? Yes, I did not know when I separated | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
from my wife if she was safe Were British officers | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
at Kandahar as well? Did he take part | :11:05. | :11:17. | |
in anything? I would like to read a list | :11:18. | :11:30. | |
of claims that the US Department It comes from the official defence | :11:31. | :11:43. | |
file from 2007. In 2007 it concluded you were high | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
risk and were likely to pose None of the allegations are true | :11:51. | :11:59. | |
that they have been saying about me. You were an Al-Qaeda | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
operative, they say? Prove anything that you say is true, | :12:06. | :12:06. | |
prove it to the world. "You held a senior position | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
in a UK-based Al-Qaeda cell." You were a close associate | :12:13. | :12:14. | |
of Osama Bin Laden. Where is the British | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
intelligence at that time? Five years I have been | :12:19. | :12:29. | |
living in this country, how come an operative | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
for Osama Bin Laden? Working in London and they didn't | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
even know about it? If the British say otherwise, | :12:38. | :12:39. | |
why didn't you give it to the Americans to prove | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
I was communicating with him. "You were an Al-Qaeda recruiter, | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
finance and facilitator With a history of participating in | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
jihadist,? You indicated your willingness | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
to become a martyr and served as a sub-command and in | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
the mountains in Afghanistan. In Bosnia in the mid-90s you met | :13:10. | :13:11. | |
Babar Ahmed, who was later sentenced in the US for being behind a website | :13:12. | :13:25. | |
supporting terrorism. In fact I was with him last night, | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
and I saw him after 15 years. We were all doing what everybody | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
was proud at that time, You lived in London with the only | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
terrorist to be convicted I met a lot of people, | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
but it does not make me a bad guy. You had links to well-known British | :13:48. | :14:04. | |
jihadis like Abu Qatada I would be lying | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
if I say I knew him. I know of him because | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
he was in the mosque. Abu Qatada used | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
to pray in his place. I used to sit and listen | :14:25. | :14:26. | |
to his speeches and I know he is not He is not somebody horrible | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
as they say he is. Described by Spanish judge | :14:30. | :14:37. | |
as Osama Bin Laden's right-hand According to my own knowledge, | :14:38. | :14:39. | |
he had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden, | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
and he never preached about him in his circles and he never | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
encouraged anyone to go to One final one from that department | :14:50. | :14:51. | |
file, you admitted you associated He attempted to put explosives | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
in a shoe and get on a plane. I do not know anything | :14:59. | :15:09. | |
about him, who is he? On Valentine's Day, you were | :15:10. | :15:20. | |
transferred to Guantanamo Bay, you didn't know it at the time, but that | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
is when your son was born. Did you have any idea what to expect? | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
I just have a general idea, but I was shocked. | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
Not the first day, the first second I arrived. | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
The first thing they tell you when they | :15:36. | :15:37. | |
drag you, they don't allow you to walk, they drag | :15:38. | :15:39. | |
They drag you, pulling you, and your feet hit the stairs, | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
and all that, and on the bus, and they said "This is the end, | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
this is the end of your life, you will never leave | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
And then they tie you to the bus and the ground with the chain | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
and your hands, they tie you, with your legs, and then | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
they start hitting you, left and right. | :15:57. | :15:58. | |
Even though it was in that dark time, in that dark moment of getting | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
You know, the closest thing for my mind is the Harry | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
They have an island which says Azkaban. | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
Where there is no happiness, they just suck all your | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
You don't have no feeling any more, and truly, that is how I felt | :16:22. | :16:29. | |
all the time, this is Azkaban, this is not where this | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
That is what they tried, you know, they want to make you feelingness, | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
That is what they tried, you know, they want to make you feelingless, | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
they want to deprive you from everything, | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
In terms of the interrogation you received at Guantanamo Bay, | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
They are not looking for answers, they are just | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
looking to blame you on something regardless, if you are telling | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
In Guantanamo they were more careful. | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
It is more discreet, it is more, you know, | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
all the method of the torture in Guantanamo is like I told | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
You said in a statement in 2013 that you were visited three times | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
in Guantanamo Bay by British intelligence officers. | :17:16. | :17:16. | |
Were they involved while the interrogations were going on? | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
What did they see, of the way you were treated? | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
They just know about it, as I told you last time, | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
just, about the guy whose name was John, | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
and Tony, he told me, "I know what they are doing to you. | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
But I promise you one thing, when you | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
come back to England, you will know we are not like them." | :17:41. | :17:42. | |
Which made me feel so good, so happy. | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
And that was the first time, you know, somebody | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
really, I thought was sympathising with me, because the other two | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
times, they were just coming to interrogate me. | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
You have described torture as a way of life, 24/7, | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
a world of mental and physical destruction. | :18:00. | :18:01. | |
Explain what forced cell extraction involved. | :18:02. | :18:09. | |
by psychologists, people, they know how | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
to manipulate you, how to make you get scared, | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
so the guard comes and ask you for a very little thing, | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
like a pack of salt he didn't find in the | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
Like I told you, they start coming, there is like six | :18:24. | :18:36. | |
guards, and you will find yourself 15, 17 people coming towards you, | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
while all of these guards from the beginning of the block, | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
marching with big, you know, heavy steps, and you would be | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
waiting, "Oh my God", and everybody is shouting | :18:51. | :19:00. | |
they come in front of the door and they start | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
shouting "Go down, put your face on the floor, put your hands behind | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
you", things like that, because your head has to be | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
You have to stick your head with your | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
own self in the toilet to let them in. | :19:13. | :19:25. | |
And they won't even accept your hands to be shackled. | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
So they spray you, and your face, and then | :19:28. | :19:29. | |
they come with the shields so fast, and they just mash you in your face, | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
and they push you down, and the other guards they pull | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
throw you on the floor, try to pin you down | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
They tie you from the back and they put | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
your legs and push against your back. | :19:46. | :19:47. | |
Until they shackle you up and they throw | :19:48. | :19:49. | |
you outside on the floor, which is a very dirty floor, | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
and they search you and they keep you in that | :19:53. | :19:54. | |
Depends how much they want to put you under a lot of pain. | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
After that, they put you with nothing, you can be | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
sleeping with nothing for days and days and days. | :20:03. | :20:04. | |
In one year, in 2012, more than 300, 370, 380 times | :20:05. | :20:16. | |
in one year, and I am talking about sometimes seven, | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
I think at one stage you did make friends with ants in your cell. | :20:20. | :20:35. | |
For two years and ten months I never left my cell. | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
Never seen the outside, and I end up making friends | :20:39. | :20:40. | |
One of them is the ants, because they were beautiful. | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
The way they were doing things, I never knew | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
I start learning the different ants, the colours, the different way | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
of doing things and it was beautiful, because | :20:55. | :20:56. | |
I learned so much and they became so friendly with me, | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
And that is one of the things that kept me going, you know, | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
that I had somebody to talk to, I had some people to watch, | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
some insect to watch, to give me time, to | :21:09. | :21:10. | |
Did they ever break your spirit? Spirit? No. Did I ever think, that | :21:11. | :21:32. | |
is it? Yes. Did you think you would get out? I had no doubt, from day | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
one. I will be out. Because I had no doubt that I did nothing wrong to | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
deserve what happened. I knew that justice would prevail. After years | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
and years, justice will prevail. It took 27 years with Nelson Mandela to | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
get out, and to be the President of his country. It took me only 14 | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
years to prove to the world that I am a good person and they are the | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
bad people. Will Guantanamo Bay ever close, in your opinion? Yes. When? | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
When the world knows the truth about it. When will that be? Very soon. Is | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
that not what we are doing? Telling the truth, telling the world what is | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
happening in Guantanamo, 12, 13 years ago and still happening? It is | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
still open. It is the way the story has been told. People have to | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
understand that Guantanamo did not change. It just went through phases. | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
The more it goes, it is more enhanced. The more they cover it up, | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
the more they do their thing and secretly, so nobody knows exactly | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
what is happening. What do you say to the critics who, even now, say | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
you must have been a security risk, that is why the Americans kept you | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
locked up for so long? I'm here. Everybody knows me now, everybody | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
sees me walking in the street. I am sure time will prove I am not a | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
risk. How much do you think what happened to you and others in | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
Guantanamo Bay is responsible for the growth of Islamist extremism? I | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
am sure there is a link. We have to understand there is a reason why it | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
happens. There is a reason why these people came about, whoever is doing | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
these acts. We have to understand there is a reason. The great reason | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
we all agree on is injustice. So, injustice breeds all of this anger. | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
The anger breeds all of this horrible things that happen after. | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
Will part of your pursuit of justice be pursuing legal action against the | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
British government? No. You're not going to take legal action? Not at | :23:34. | :23:43. | |
all. Not at all? Why not? Because I don't believe the court will solve | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
this problem. I don't believe it will bring justice, because of what | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
happened in the past. You are not interested in compensation? The | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
compensation issue, really, I can't talk about it for many reasons. That | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
is beside the point, I do not want to prosecute anybody, I do not want | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
anybody to be, you know, asked about what his role was in the past, I | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
just want people to tell the truth. I am doing it right now. So we can | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
really understand what happened and stop it from happening again. I need | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
you to, please, let me tell the world the truth about Guantanamo, | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
let them know exactly what is happening. The world has the right | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
to understand what is happening at this time. I hope that I did | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
something, and I am still going to carry on doing it, until, God | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
willing, I will close that place. I will do my best. If they need me to | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
go back, to help them to close that place, by Allah, I will go back. | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
Thank you very much. You can watch the full interview on our programme | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
page. In response to those allegations, the Foreign Office say | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
the UK Government stands firmly against torture and cruel, inhumane | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
and degrading treatment or punishment. We do not participate | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
in, solicit, encourage or condone the use of torture or cruel, | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment for any purpose, neither | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
does the UK make use of any so-called enhanced interrogation | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
techniques. We have consistently made clear our absolute opposition | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
to such behaviour and our determination to combat it wherever | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
and whenever it occurs. The US Department of defence told us: | :25:30. | :25:59. | |
Has been cold and snowy across the North of Scotland for the last 24 | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
hours. The cold weather | :26:05. | :26:05. |