Episode 2 Sunday Morning Live

Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. I'm Naga Munchetty. On today's

programme, a model of multi-faith democracy, David Cameron's parting

vision for Britain. One week after Brexit, with racist abuse on the

increase, can religions stand together? Well, the Mayor of London

think they can. There will be differences and the point is you can

amplify the differences or you can focus on the things you've got in

common. The Pope says Christians should seek forgiveness from gay

people, but as people celebrate their sexuality, we ask what does

that mean for the church's traditional stance on homosexuality?

Have religions changed their tune on a Divisive issue? And Frederick

Forsyth tells us why he is paying tributes to the victim of the Somme.

Seemingly endless of little white stones mark where they now lie. I

think it scars when you see all that. We will be looking for your

views on our debates too, of course. Here is a talking point - should

women have to wear these for work? Nicola Thorpe was told to wear heels

or leave. She tells us why sexist dress codes need a dressing-down.

Tommy has been out and about to sample your views. I really like to

look smart, but to me that doesn't mean I have to wear heels, but I

have four pairs of heels under my desk!

Our guests are here ready to discuss those issues and Tom tomorrow is

back here as well. -- Tommy Sandhu is back here as well. Flat shoes on

today? Good morning, we want you to get in touch and be part of the

show. Lots of dimp ways to get in contact. You can contact us by

Facebook and Twitter. If you are tweeting don't forget to use the

hashtag. You can also call us on our number:

Standard geographic charges will apply. You can text us on:

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can also

e-mail us at: So lots of ways to get in touch,

please do. There is no excuse not to get this touch. Thanks, Tommy. Let's

meet our guests. Professor of contemporary Islamic studies at

Oxford University and Andrea is a lawyer and the Director of Christian

concern for our nation and clemant is the lead pastor of Eternity

Church in Croydon. Thank you for joining us. What a week in

politician it has been. David Cameron repeated his mantra that

despite its imperfections, Britain is one of the most successful

multi-race, Multi ethnic democracies on earth, but with a reported

five-fold rise in racist attacks, does the Prime Minister's

acclamation stand up to scrutiny is that a reachable reality or a

far-fetched fantasy. Well, Sadiq Khan has been using Ramadan to

reinforce religious tolerance and togetherness. We joined him. You

wouldn't expect to hear a Muslim called to prayer in a place of

Jewish worship, but at Finchley Reformed Synagogue in London, it is

part of their effort to promote interfaith unity. It is easier to

hear the voice of mistrust than it is to hear the voice that says, "It

is going to be OK. We just need to work hard. We can do this together."

So we're going to begin... Miriam and the synagogue have been hosting

Muslims from Somalia since their nearby community centre was burned

down in an arson attack three years ago. We're helping the Somali

community celebrate their month of Ramadan and we're helping them do

that by opening the doors to our synagogue and giving them an

opportunity to be able to come together as a community. And really,

in return, we're able to get to know each other. It is really been an

experience of knowing that we have far more in common than we do, those

differences. This evening, Muslims and Jews

together, are marking Ramadan by observing the breaking of Islamic

fast. They have a special guest. The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. Begin

with the greeting of peace. The mayor is full of praise for the

display of unity shown by the Jewish and Muslim communities in Finchley.

Not a Jew, not a Muslim, but a Christian. Christian said, "Darkness

cannot drive out darkness. Only light can. Hate cannot drive out

hate, only love can." Sharing a meal together, the people

here believe is a good way of sharing experiences, breaking down

barriers between faiths whilst retaining their own culture and

individualality. -- individual ylt. There will be

differences and you can amplify the differences or you can focus on what

things you've got in common. If we're going to live together

peacefully, harmoniously and with respect, we get on with each other

and we build bridges rather than building walls and it is really

important that we recognise in London we've got a great, great

thing going on. We've got people from different backgrounds, not

simply tolerating each other, but respecting and we can never be

complacent. APPLAUSE

Sadiq Khan there appealing for togetherness. Our first question

this week is, is Britain a model of multi-faith democracy? Well, joining

us for the debate down the line from our Birmingham studio is Elisa.

First, I'd like to put the first question to you. We heard from Sadiq

Khan, building bridges, not walls. The question of what is a

multi-faith democracy. We saw Muslims breaking fast with Jews in

the synagogue. Is that it? Is that an example of this multi-faith

democracy? Yes. This is a great example so you have lots of such

examples in Britain today at the grass-roots level and at the local

level, lots of people are doing this and this is very important. Now,

when it comes to a model, it is not only to respect each other and to

eat together, the point is that if we really want complete society, it

is to live together, to be together, it is more than we are doing and

sometimes Cameron is just saying this now and sometimes he had

contradictory statements about purlist in our society when he said

integration that we have to talk more about Britishness, just after

crisis, it is very important for us to have a policy and to have a

vision which is helping the people to come together. So this is

something which is very important. Equal rights for all, but

acknowledging the fact that religious organisations can bring

something to the civil society and come together out of solidarity and

justice and mutual respect. Andrea, let me get a view from you. You're

committed to the idea that Britain is a Christian country. Does that

mean then you cannot welcome new faiths to be part of a British

society? Well, I think quite the contrary. I think that what's

happened and the reason why Britain itself is a model of democracy is

because of its great Christian roots. Rooted deeply in biblical

thought and biblical precepts which brings a great welcome and a great

hospitality to all. Any great democracy of modern civilisation has

been based on Christianity. It has been based on the Bible which

welcomes all, but that is, in fact, the more that you get, lots of

different views competing in the space and not one understanding of a

culture, then sometimes there becomes more increasing chaos in the

public discourse and in fact if you look at other countries across the

globe. If we were to look at Islamic nations, there, there isn't the kind

of freedom that you would find that the Christians give here, that our

Christian heritage has given to all faiths and none in this place.

Pastor, you see you nodding. Rabbi Laura, your reaction to that, the

idea that we are a Christian nation, how does that make you feel as a

Jew? Well, historically, when Jews have lived amongst Christians and

Muslims, it has been Islamic Societies who have been much more

tolerant because Christianity has a very defined mission to convert and

that's at the end of our gospels. So I am uncomfortable with what you

said. I don't think it recognises truth for its own sake which each

religious or not religious group brings. I think there is an extra

agenda of conversion that concerns me in what you're saying. The idea

of multi-faith and multi-culture tries to say that every idea is

equal and equally freeing of all people, but that's not the case.

Islam, Judaism, Chrissanity say something very different about the

truth as does secularism. It says there is no God. So actually if we

think about that not everything can be true. Modern society, we may want

to accept there is no truth or we're clamouring or for our own truth.

That doesn't negate the fact that we can get along with our different

views and Pastor, you're in a society in Croydon in the South

London, very multi-faith... That's right. Society there. How does this

reflect with the work you do there? I would agree that Britain is a

Christian nation and you know, we use the word, "Democracy" In

democracy is the idea of majority rule. The majority of people in

Britain still identify themselves as Christians. We can argue about the

figures, it declining and there is a growing sense that Christians are

feeling that their views and their historical beliefs are being

marginalised and that's causing tension. And I think there is a

challenge, because when we say multi-faith, is at the expense of

the host nations culture and belief system? We are a Christian country.

There is churches everywhere. Went royalty, when they have a wedding,

it is a great big church of England affair. The Queen is the head of the

Church of England, it is a Christian faith that allowed other cultures

and welcomed other cultures including my own family's culture to

come into this country in the 1960s and have freedom and live a better

lifestyle. The point of this discussion, is that we're talking

about how comfortable people feel and if we are a multi-faith society.

I want to bring in Elisa who is in Birmingham at the moment. I want to

hear your story. You came to this country 11 years ago from Poland. We

have been talking about tension, perhaps that has arisen and how we

get along in a multi-faith society. What are your impressions? Well, I

think Britain is a very good example of multi-faith and multi-cultural

country. There is some many different communities and they are

working together and especially at a grass-roots level. There are many

examples of this co-operation and I downed stand that there are

religious differences as has been said, but it doesn't mean that

people cannot work together or cannot exist together and plan the

future and be involved in a democratic process together. Do you

feel comfortable here particularly we were talking in the light of

Brexit, we have seen Hope Not Hate making moves to try to bring

communities together. Have you had any experiences that perhaps made

you feel uncomfortable of late? Well, it feels a bit different since

we've got the results of the referendum and we had some hate

speech and negative comments on my organisation I'm working for Twitter

and Facebook accounts. They were, it was just a few incidents, but it is

worrying what we hear from the rest of the country, the incidents which

happened in Cambridge and London and other places when there was more

significant attacks when people received notes and when there was

graffiti over the buildings. That's what I found very unsettling and

just showing something turned since the referendum. A poll conducted by

the Jewish Chronicle says a third of Jews feel less safe after the

referendum. Is that something you're identifying with?

I don't think it's just about Jews at all. How we are as a country is

very concerning. When we had the riots, there was a report called

Parallel Lies by Ted Castle, and he is saying we are a far more

fragmented, separate society than we used to be. What the referendum has

done is put a sharp light on that. You have two things. One is showing

fragmentation exists. And a political vacuum. I'm very concerned

about that at the moment it's the place for leaders of all faiths and

none to set a vision for what kind of Britain we want. A strong,

multicultural, where we don't welcome diversity, but we benefit

from it. We love it. You mentioned leaders of faith. What about

politicians, Tariq? Do they have a possibility to ensure that we are

cohesive as a society? Yes, of course, but the point which is very

important is to get this trust between the politicians and the

religious people to come together and to understand that this is a

shared responsibility. This is why I want to respond to what you said,

because I think it is very important, if you start by saying

it's because it's a Christian country that we are open minded, and

look at the Muslim majority countries and they are not, and we

they shouldise religion, no, that's not true. In history Christian

countries were sometimes colonising, and Christianity was used. What is

important for us when we come together is to be self critical, to

look at our own history, to look at our own meme and to understand that

we have among us people who are not tolerant, people after Brexit,

"Frexit" happened to me three days telling me, go back home. What is

that? What is happening? Happening? If we don't come together and be

self critical about our own religious tradition and find in

other religions people who are ready for us to build a pluralistic

society, it doesn't mean that I'm undermining your faith. I'm adding

to it, helping you to be a better Christian. It's not about the

undermining of faith but the pursuit of truth. And in the public

discourse. In our history and in our nation, when we've seen the poor

disenfranchised in the 17th and 18th centuries, we've seen great

reformers such as Wesley and Whitfield, Wilberforce come forward

and as a result of giving the people back the Bible, knowledge of the

Bible, I believe part of the problem of Great Britain today is we haven't

encountered, we've lost the Jesus who was the most compassionate

person that ever lived. That's fine, but you know what? Multi-faith

society is where my presence is helping you to know better your

religion. This is why this discussion... And you are welcome

here. I know. Of course you are welcome. Please, you used the word

welcome. Let's talk to Alicja. Do you still feel welcome here? Well,

yes I think so. The first reaction was, and the first word we heard

after the result was very negative. I had negative comments about people

basically saying, you need to pack and go home. People saying that they

wanted to leave the EU clearly because it is mainly because of the

migration and they don't want EU migrants here. So it did make me

feel unwelcome. During this week I also received really big number of

positive messages and e-mails, even cards from people who wanted to say

that, wanted to let me know that not everyone thinks that, only the

minorities a few examples of the hate speech, that the majority of

Britain supports migration and want migrants to stay here and they find

it beneficial to the country. That's the other side of what happened

since the referendum. There is lots of negative but also lots of

positive comments. It is still early days and we are very anxious. We are

kind of waiting to see whether those incidents were just in the beginning

the first reaction, or is it the beginning of something which will

stay. Indeed, thank you Alicja. You've been reacting to this

conversation. Our viewers have been sending their tweets and texts.

Tommy. In general people are saying they like the idea of a multi-faith

society but worry that we can accept each other's differences.

So many interesting views there. I was taking notes. Pastor Clement,

one of the tweets there, the problem is a multicultural society. Another

saying a secular society is the answer. Well, I want to comment

about some of the racism that's come up since the Brexit. I was born in

this country. Whilst we are not trying to play down the racism

that's being perpetrated today, that's a far cry from the racism I

suffered in the East End of London growing up. And so I think we are

certainly more cohesive and more welcoming than we have been in the

last 30 or 40 years. I suppose the problem is 331 hate crimes were

reported to the police this week compared to a weekly average of 63.

We are talking about this feeling, whether it is more that have been

reported, or whether there's a feeling that people are feeling

isolated. I don't see that in Croydon. Croydon's very

multicultural. I don't sense that on the streets. I'm on the streets

regularly talking to people one on one. We've got to realise this

recent vote we had, 70% turned out to vote for it, I believe there was

over 30 million people that voted that took part in it. So even the

figures that are important are being reported, they are a small

percentage of the overall figure. We've got to be careful how we

report those statistics. It seems that a lot of the problem has been

caused by the media's reporting of Brexit. Let me show you a photo. An

NHS photo here of a theatre staff. What we are showing in this photo,

titled We Are Europe, scrub nurses from Spain, an Irish radiographer, a

German consultant anaesthetist, et cetera. Awesome. Andrea, why do you

think this has had to be published now? I think we celebrate that,

Great Britain, I'm half Italian. My father came over in the 1960s. I'm

very... I love being British and Italian. I love the mix of cultures,

and I love the welcome. It is this nation. Just because whether you

voted for Leave or for Remain, if you love our nation, you believe in

the freedom, non-coercion of people. That's what's given us great

opportunity. I thank God for that opportunity. I'm probably sitting on

this sofa because I was a little girl born to an Italian waiter, got

the opportunity to go to a grammar school and pursue my dream of

becoming a lawyer. So are we celebrating at the moment? We should

celebrate, I think, but at the same time we have to be cautious with

what's happening. Just the figures that you are giving, and we have to

take this seriously. It means that after the vote what we have is

people revealing feelings that are, we are scared. It is the poor

feeling dispossessed. You know what, the starting points of us living

together is not to tell me tore people you are welcome. They are at

home. They are British Muslims, British Jewish people... If I said

to you what you just said, you're welcome here, Angela. And remarks

sorry. You are welcome here, come to my house for a cup of tea and then

please go. It's a thing of power when you are able in a Christian

space that you define to say, you're welcome here. What you are saying is

you have more power and we are welcome to come in as guests and

leave as guests. There is something very concerning about that. Every

country must have a host. When I travel overseas, I've travelled all

over the world, I accept and respect the culture which I'm going to. I go

to the Middle East... You say TH health. Culture. There's a host

culture. And when you are talking about Croydon, what we saw in the

referendum was a massive difference across the country between what you

see in London and what you see in other parts of the country, divided

by class, divided by money, by location. So what we really saw is

you may have 95% of people voting Remain in east Finchley, but it does

not reflect the country. That was the shock. I'm going to have to draw

this conversation to an end, but thank you so much for this. Your

comments from viewers, and please do keep them coming as well. Frederick

Forsyth, generally known as the author of best-selling blockbust ber

Thillers like the day of the jackal, the dogs of war, he's been a foreign

correspondent, a jet fighter pilot and associated with the odd spy in

his time. But he has written a special poem set to music in memory

of those who died in the battle of the Somme, the 100th anniversary of

which is celebrated this week. Nikki Bedi went to talk to him about his

remarkable career. Freddie, we are sitting in your study full of

memories of your well lived life, and to my left is an electric

typewriter, which I understand is not there as a piece of memorabilia.

You actually use it? Yes, daily. And you haven't decided to move on to...

I have an iPad but I don't have a computer. And why do you prefer to

write on the typewriter? I don't know. Sadly my wife calls me a

dinosaur. She's a computer lady but I respond, looks dinosaurs rule

there had world for 50 million years. How long have the computer

geeks been around. You started as a foreign correspondent didn't you?

Yes, in a provincial paper for three years. I was lucky to be taken on by

Reuteres. You were in Nigeria for the very bloody Biafran conflict.

Yes. You must have seen and experienced things there which have

surely shaped the way you think, and perhaps seen what evils human beings

are capable of doing to each other? Yes, he seen the brutal dictatorship

of East Germany already by then, but this was mass slaughter.

Particularly of children. You don't see... Reporters are not ro boss.

You have feelings. Although I was supposed to write dispassionately

and accurately, obviously, you can't not feel, if you see an entire field

the size of a football pitch of dying children, which is what I saw.

You are a Christian by faith. Do you think that that has played a part in

perhaps helping you through certain periods in your life? Not really.

I'm not a very active, I sometimes describe myself as a lapseed rot

stand. , I sometimes describe myself as a lapseed rot stand. , I

sometimes describe myself as a lapseed rot stand. -- Protestant. If

there isn't a people being up there somewhere, this is a wilderness of a

place, the world, in chaos, a howling desert. Where might reveals

and the good are trodden on and the eve ill survive and prosper.

Freddie, you have been close to death on more than one occasion.

You've been shot at. You've been bombed. You've been hunted by spy

catchers. Are you lucky, blessed or I don't know, smart? Lucky, not very

smart. I wouldn't have got into these scrapes in the first place had

I been smart. But lucky. A number of occasions I was in a place or a

situation where I thought I don't think I'm going to survive this. I

think, and I've my life's over. And I managed somehow to slip away. Give

me an example. In an open boat on the Indian Ocean. I said in the book

that I've never met a man who had gone across the ocean in an open

boat who did not believe in God. Because believe me when you are very

close to death, you pray. You really do. What do you, who do you pray to?

That's the point. The guy you've ignored for so long. You ask him, if

he is up there, to help you get out of this mess. We know you for

writing best-selling hillers. But now you've written an incredibly

moving poem that's been set to music, Fallen Soldier. The last line

of that is then you and your comrades will march once again. I

assumed that meant that this soldier... The resurrection of life.

The line before that says, you will hear his last Reveille. God's last

Reveille, the bugle call that gets soldiers up in the morning. Yes, it

is a reference to the afterlife. In the poem, or the song, whichever way

away want to look at it, you do really beautifully describe how

these young men were handsome and we never told them how much we loved

them and then they give their all. And they are all, their all was

often their life. Was this something that made you realise how much of a

sacrifice that was? Well, I had been to the killing fields of Flanders

and I've seen the great monuments of Thiepval and Menin Gate and so on.

The seemingly endless fields of little white stones that mark where

they now lie, and the walls with literally tens of thousands of

names, where there was no body to bury. Blown to pieces. But the name

was recorded. Quite a few, tens of thousands where it just says,

Snowden only to God. Meaning blown to pieces, never discovered who he

was, or drowned in mud and never recovered at all, but missing and

therefore dead. I think it scars you when you see all that.

Do you believe in an after life? That's where I really do have a big

question mark over my head because I don't know, I haven't made up my

mind. I in my last book I making a mocking reference about having had

so much luck and if there is someone up there, I better make up my mind

pretty soon or I may have to explain myself to him! Is it Freddie or

Frederick Forsyth the poet as opposed to the blockbuster thriller

writer? No, it is Frederick Forsyth the retired old codger!

We're going to have a special performance of that poem at the end

of the programme. This week Pope Francis says it is

right for the Catholic Church to apologise for being very negative

about gay people. Next week, the General Synod of the Church of

England will take three days to discuss sexuality and this summer

the church is setting up a lesbian, gay, by sexual and transgender

congregation to support and supplement Christians who identify

themselves as LGBT. As we come to the end of a month of gay pride

marches across the world. Is it reneging on traditional teaching and

perhaps taking tolerance too far? Have religions taken homosexuality

too far. You are a Catholic and you are a gay man? Yes. You're married

and you have children? Yes. What does the Pope's comments, what do

they mean to you? I'm delighted that he made them. I think it is high

time, I was in fact expecting some sort of apology at sometime, I

didn't expect it to come so soon. But I think we need to see this in a

broader context. This was one incident from the Pope, but there

were other apologies before that. I was in Sweden a few months ago for

the European forum and in the opening service the bishop said

precisely the same thing. He said the church needed an act of

repentance for the past harm done to gay people. At the family synod last

year in Rome, the group of German speaking bishops collectively issued

precisely an apology for the harm done to gay people. Does this make a

difference this wasn't part of an official Vatican statement. I think

he made the comments to journalist on a plane from America? It wasn't

an official statement. It was part of a broader interview which I think

explains why it was so limited. A lot of gay Catholic commentators

around the world expressed disappointment that it didn't go

further and didn't go into why the apology is needed and didn't go into

how we can prevent harm in future. It didn't go into what we can do to

heal the hurt. That was important. But the fact that it was just a

small part of a bolder interview, to me, excuses that. I think what is

important is that it begins to open up a conversation that is way over

due is what does the church need to do looking ahead to properly

integrate gay and lesbian people? Rabbi Laura, it is an issue close to

your heart. You are the parent of a by sexual person who defines

themselves as gender known binary. For those who aren't familiar with

that term, can you explain that? It took me ages to understand the

termologies and if people don't know, it doesn't mean disapproval

and part of it is just to say, "What does that mean? I don't understand."

For our older child, that means they were born with the biology of a girl

and that's how they were treated iflt I don't know what that means

for many years. They're now in their mid-20s and it means that for them,

we use the pro noun them. I'm noticing when people talk about she,

I say it is them or they and this means they don't feel particularly

like male or female. They feel both and there is a fluidity in it which

is interesting. Do you think this fluidity has been picked up by the

Pope with the comments? Well, I don't think that's the main thing

going on with the Pope. What I love about what he did, he didn't say,

"We welcome." And didn't remind people of the biblical view. He

said, "We apologise." Therefore, we as religious leaders have a special

role in this because of the role that religion has and still has in

oppressing LG BA it people. The religious spectrum is wide on

attitudes to LGBT people, but they have been physically hurt and

persecuted and the thing that we missed out in the trailer is

Orlando, half a second ago and that's a massiveks massive awful

terrible thing and religions have a part to play in that. You're

referring to the shooting of people of LGBT nature who were celebrating

life and was shot mers alsoly. Yes. Rabbi Laura brought this up, what

role does religious leaders have in Islam when it comes to accepting

homosexuality or apologising for the way homosexuals were treated? The

Pope was not apologising. He didn't say that. What he was saying is that

we have, we can do it in the way he was responding to welcoming, by the

way it was something which was, "We have to change our attitude towards

homosexuals." This is what he has been saying after 2010 because in

2010 he was very harsh on the issue when he was a cardinal. The words

we're using, he apologised for being very negative about gay people. Yes,

but it is not the same as an apology which is an official statement

saying this is... Isn't this mincing words and isn't this more about him

saying that as the head of a religious order you need to take

responsibility for caring for all of your congregation and this is what

needs to be looked at and how does that reflect in Islam? The main

Islamic position is soy what the church is saying in the classical is

that homosexuality is not promoted by our religion. Now, the point here

and this something in our liberal societies, we need to be able to

say, this is morality, you can have your position. The question is how

do you deal with the people who have another opinion by saying,

"Respecting the people. Respecting what they think. Respecting who they

are. Even though you don't personally on your, with your belief

system and we should be able because what you said, I think, it is

important entering into a discussion. Being able to discuss

the issue without rejecting. This is the starting point. If not, it is

going to be a dogmatic position. It is open for us to respect each

other. This is what the Pope was saying. It is being open to

discussion as well, Andrea, the General Synod is dedicating three

days of discussion to this. Surely, that's a good thing? Of course, it

is good to discuss these things and to discuss what the Bible says about

this which is what synod is doing, but I think what's important is to

look at what the Bible says and then be true to it. This morning I read

coming into here, I read the Gospel of Mark and there we meet in those

pages Jesus Christ, the most compassionate man that ever lived

and he said we must love God and to love our neighbour and part of

loving our neighbour is to actually, he pointed out that each one of us

is broken, is falling. Each one of is simple, if we lust after someone

else, that's sinful. The pattern for human sexuality, we're born male and

female, to be with one another, to have sexual expression within

marriage only. That's a very high ideal and that Jesus, when he came,

he was to point us to that beauty, to purity and actually he died on

the cross so that we might, so that we might, actually be forgiven. I am

keen to get an opinion. I don't think lust is sinful. That's what

Jesus said. Andrea, that's why I'm not a Christian, I haven't finished.

The difference between this discussion and a discussion about

beliefs, this is not about beliefs this. Is about sexuality and gender.

This our nature. We had a different discussion in the referendum. When

you rightly talked about us being self critical, you can have the

discussion and the debate, but you're not going to persuade someone

out of being gay. That's who they are. That's their very core nature.

We have had lots of comments from our viewers, thank you very much for

staying in touch. Tommy, you have been taking stock. A lot of people

have been saying the comments on the Pope are long over due, but some say

it goes against the teachings of the Bible. One viewer says, "Gays are

just one of many groups of people the church needs to seek forgiveness

from." Another said, "Jesus would not be a homophobe. He had a lot of

time for people who faced discrimination." Another viewer

says, "Homosexuals are God's people and the abuse is a concernmed more

can be done when all are welcome." A text here from Dave, says, "What a

fantastic move by the Pope to embrace gay people and end this

division. Those who oppose this move must to re-think their place in a

modern world and their place in the church as well." John says, "The

Pope's liberalism is non biblical and is out of step with the teaching

of the Bible." Very positive comments there. There is the idea of

a moral disorder when it comes to homosexuality. Are you immoral in

the eyes the church? There is nothing in the Catholic Church which

is against homosexuality, not at allment there are some -- all. There

are specific items in church teaching by are critical of

homosexual acts, but that's a difference to being against

homosexuality as a Chrissian as an orren tation. Can you separate the

two really? The church teaching is clear a same-sex orientation is

natural and it is wrong to try to change it. The only thing the church

does do is get into detail about how we deal with that. But I want to

come back to the question of the Anglican Church conversation. This

is terribly important and exciting. It is not about discussing what the

Bible says. There are disagreements about what the Bible says, but what

shared conversations is about is also about listening to the

experience, the lived experience of gay people and that is really

important. What's interesting in the lived experience is a good friend of

mine who has same-sex attraction and was married found the teaching of

the Bible, the teaching that says to flee from that, to stay with his

wife, he found that so freeing because he stayed married to his

wife. He stayed a father to his son and his daughter and he said it was

the teaching, the clear teaching in the Bible. This is one of my friends

who today is so pleased that he stayed faithful to the Jesus' words

in the Gospel. Thank you for your comments. I think we could keep

talking about this, but we haven't got time. That's my favourite phrase

on this programme, "We haven't got time." Thank you so much. To heel or

not to heel? That's the question. What impact does your footwear have

on your performance? Very little. Why are corporate dress codes

requiring women to wear high heels at work? Earlier this year a

temporary worker was sent home without pay for refusing to meet the

female grooming policy of wearing two to four inch heels for her role

as a receptionist. Well, she was incensed by what she felt was a

sexist policy towards female employees and started a petition to

make it illegal for a company to require women to wear high heels at

work. 150,000 signatures later, this week the pedestrian tishes was

discussed at a Parliamentary equalities committee. The question

is, would a man have to succumb to the same stipulations or is it only

women who have to toe the line when it comes to corporate clothes? Along

with Nicola, we will be joined by Liz Brewer, but first, armed with

his favourite stilettos, you know, he indulged while he was at

university, Tommy took to the streets to find out if it is time to

leave the high heels at home? You know what, no, how does anybody walk

in these? Would you wear these in the

workplace? No. They are red and very high. You picked up on the colour

first. I want to be comfortable when I'm going to work, not to feel like

I'm forced to wear something. Would always wear high heels in the

workplace? I don't, but when I'm in a meeting or attending a conference,

I feel more in power. You are dressed smart because you are on TV.

I dress smart because I'm working. It depends where you work. So can it

be justified. You are a corporate company and you want ladies to wear

high heels? Heels?. If it is if it's the company protocol. Why don't you

come to work in track suit bottoms? I can do my job wearing whatever I

want. I like to look smart but that doesn't mean I have to wear heels. I

do have four pairs under my desk. It is important to have guidelines but

to enforce things that are not appropriate, that's not the right

thing to do. Is it sexist for an organisation to impose a high heel

dress code on their employees? It is. If it is imposed on males, why

on females? What if they said, we would like you to wear a nice tight

T-shirt, come in that tank top, let's see what you're about? I

would, because I would follow what I'm told, but you raise a valid

point. You've got choice. It is up to you. When I wear heels it is up

to me, just don't tell me to wear heels. You can wear heels if you

want to. I feel empowered. Tommy feels empowered. What did we make

you do this morning? They made me walk around on my Tippie it's. I

couldn't do it. And how are your feet now? Still sore. So you've

formed an opinion? It is impossibility. I don't know how you

ladies do it. I was flats today because I was expecting you to wear

heels. Nick larks are those the ones you wore to work? Similar. Are all

dress codes of pressive? No, I don't think all dress codes. I agree the

employer has a right to enforce a dress code on customer-facing

employees. As it stands the law says an employer can distinguish between

male and female dress codes. I don't understand why that's essential in a

role that isn't gender specific. What about, and I can give you lots

of examples, a make-up counter? Promoting a particular brand and

that's the way. So there has to be a distinction does there? No, because

a man working in a make-up store would also wear make-up. It is down

to choice, it is part of what I want to do with this campaign and

petition, it should be about choice. For women to have as much choice to

be comfortable at work as men do. Liz, this comes down to what your

idea of comfortable is and what smart is. I know what I'm

comfortable in out of work. I'm comfortable in my flat shoes. You've

chosen to wear heels today. Yes. Can employers skew the difference

between what's acceptable? Can they dictate? Yes. In many ways I agree

exactly with what Nicola's done. It is about time this was addressed.

Nuclear weapons the workplace. To expect women to be wearing heels for

seven or eight hours a day. I'm not sure if it is heels or high heels.

There's a difference. A high heel would be ridiculous to wear for 8

hours. Even I couldn't do that. I do wear heels, because I'm not very

tall and I like to be a bit taller. In this particular instance here we

have in the workplace, you are representing the company, you need

look smart. A high heel doesn't necessarily determine looking smart.

You can have a heel. You can have a thick little heel. There's a

difference between heels and flat shoes. Flat shoes, if they are

suggesting that flat shoes are untidy, that's a mistake. You are

looking perfectly good. Thank you. But you've got a substantial flat

shoe. There are, things like the ballet shoes, which are very much in

vogue now. Since the millennium, 15 years ago, girls have destroyed

their feet because they have been wearing shoes which were totally

unsuitable for feet. When a baby is born, she just has cartilage. She

doesn't form the 28 bonus et cetera for about 16 or 17 years. During

that time, the foot has to grow. From then on you have to look after

your feet. I do agree with her. They do need to change the law. And

employers do have to address this. And not insist on high heels.

Andrea, is it oppressive? Nicola looks stunning today and would look

wonderful in any smart, in any position. I think that behind that

question, obviously if the rule to wear heels is somehow about

objectifying the woman, then of course that would be sexist. If it

is more to do with a company's culture and a dress code, it

wouldn't necessarily be so, because many in the City have to be suited

and booted. They to put on a torics wear a sharp collar. There is an

appropriateness about uniforms or dress codes. Have you ever felt

you've needed to dress a certain way? Of course. And I'm not against

dress codes. That's normal. I think that there's a difference between

men and women, but the point to just write these down and say, you have

to think about it, that's a problem. It is deeper than that. It's the

very presence of women on the labour market. This is the point. Whatever

you can say, this is the culture of the company. No, at the end, the

only thing which has to be clear is that it is for the woman to choose,

it is not for you to impose. Decency, that's right. Skills,

that's right. And go for the same salary for the same skills. That's

the main problems. These discussions about imposing this. And this is the

only way, this is our culture. No, it is not a culture. This is sexism

in a clear way. I think we can accept a company culture in such a

way. Let's find out what our viewers are saying. A lot of people are

saying we should be able to wear what we want in the workplace.

Health and safety concerns being raised as well.

Next week I'm coming in in a track suit and high heels, done.

And I will be in my track sociality is it sexist? EWLINE And I will be

in my track sociality is it sexist? -- my track suit. Is it sexist?

There's a way of describing a dress code and explaining it. Women and

men do not like to be dictated to. If you are going to say, you cannot

wear heels. Hang on a moirncts what you need to do is sit there and

explain what it is that is expected of you. Regarding dress smart. And

shoes in particular. If it is the fact that you are front of house and

you are welcoming, and you may occasionally have to get up and

greet a guest, yes, maybe a heel, but not a high heel. Heel. A heel

might be considered better than flat. When did it become normalised

that women are not only expected to look smart at work but attractive?

It is integrated into our culture. It is not just business culture,

that women are still seen differently. What's the goal of your

campaign? Is it to not have the dress codes? Or is it to make sure

women don't feel under pressure to be attractive rather than

functional? That's very important. That's difficult to deal with,

change of legislation, but if legislation is changed, then the

response to that would be fantastic. Women already, because of the

campaign, are thinking about why do I feel like I need to be attractived

a work? And employers are thinking, what can we change to make women

feel comfortable and the focus needs to be on whether people can do their

job, not whether they look attractive. You were nodding. You

have ever felt the pressure to be attractive at work? No, it has never

happened to me. Thank you for the question! I think that the point is

very important. The moment you start asking the question, are we

expecting you to be attractive and functional, it means there's a

difference between men and women. That's the starting point of the

problem. Be functional, do your job and be comfortable. But there's a

difference between men and women. Enteringly men are feeling the

pressure on this as well. The point is to impose it. We live in a

generation where the gender norms are being blurred. To that that in

law is not right. Thank you all for your time. That's it from us today.

Thank you to our guests and tow four your comments. We are going to end

in this week of commemoration with Frederick Forsyth's poem, Fallen

Soldier. A tribute to those who died in the battle of the Somme. It is

set to music and performed by soprano Melissa Alder. Thank you,

goodbye. # Sleep in peace,

Fallen Soldier # Where your kinsfolk

here have laid you # While we who are left

tread so safe above. # You are home from the fight,

from the clamour, from the danger # Laid in the breast

of the land that you love. # We should have told you more

how deeply we loved you # We knew not how

short was the while # To kiss and to hold,

to cherish your presence, # The sound of your laughter,

the sun of your smile. # When you first

marched to the colours # You pulled on your badge,

standing straight, standing tall # And you gave us your promise,

your sworn word of honour. # And in your last moment

you gave us your all. # So sleep Fallen Soldier,

here in your homeland. # Wrapped in our flag

until when on some far distant morn # Then you and your comrades

will march once again #.