Episode 20 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 20

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On today's programme: A 14-year-old girl who died of cancer has her body

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frozen in the hope of a cure and being woken again.

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We examine the ethical questions this case raises.

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As prison officers strike to protest about the volatile state

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of overcrowded jails, we ask should we keep

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Greater community integration is key to Britain's future

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You have got divisive political forces rising across the world. We

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have got the choice. We can either build bridges or walls.

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Len Goodman tells me why he has no plans to take it easy after stepping

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You floated across that floor like butter on a hot crumpet. Len

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Goodman! I am not retiring. You must never retire. Once you retire, you

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never get a day off. Our panel is here and so is

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Tommy Sandhu who'll be sharing Good morning. Lots of ways for you

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to get in touch. You can contact us by

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Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use

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the hashtag #bbcsml. Standard geographic

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charges from landlines Texts will be charged at your

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standard message rate. Email us at

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[email protected]. Have you got your tissues ready?

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Have I? For the emotions? Emotions will be running high today because

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it is the last one of the series and the last chance to get your thoughts

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to us. Bharti Tailor is the head

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of the Hindu Forum for Europe. Andrew Pierce is a journalist

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and broadcaster. Afua Hirsch is a writer

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and human rights barrister. Murray Ballard is a photographer

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and documentarian. A letter a dying girl wrote

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to a judge was revealed this week. The 14-year-old who had terminal

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cancer wanted to have her body She told Mr Justice Peter Jackson,

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"I want to live longer and I think that in the future,

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they might find a cure The teenager asked him to allow her

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mother to carry out her wish, even though her father

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at that time disagreed. The judge granted her request

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and the girl has since died. Human embryos can be cryo-preserved

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for years but more complicated structures seem

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beyond current science. The judge in this case said he had

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not considered whether cryonic preservation had any scientific

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basis but there might need to be We'll discuss the implications

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of this story with our First, Tommy has been

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sampling some views. Nobody can fail to be moved by the

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letter that the 14-year-old girl wrote to the judge in this case. Nor

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can we not appreciate the dilemma faced by her parents but this has

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triggered a nationwide debate. Do we really want to live forever? I think

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I would do it myself. If there is a chance to survive, might as well

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give it a shot. I think I am here for now and I can't imagine coming

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back later. There is nothing particularly wrong with it. If you

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can do that and that is what you want to do, why not? Imagine coming

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back and literally not knowing everybody and the way the world is

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so fast pace now, in a year we won't recognise it. Are we playing God?

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Potentially but if you have lost your child very young, you would

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want to hope there is a possibility. Are we messing with God and doing

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his work? Yet, because when you are dead, you are dead and you can go to

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eternity. She was 14 years of age and maybe she thought he could have

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another chance at life. Now she has left her body, this is just a space

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suit with a sell by date on it. It would be cool to come back and see

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how life has changed but it is hard because you are stuck in a time zone

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and your own believes that might not fit the beliefs of society in 100

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years. So is it ethical to freeze

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bodies for future life? Joining us for this debate

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from our Oxford studio is Dr Anders Sandberg,

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research fellow at the Future Dr Sandberg, you're

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an expert in this area. Can you briefly explain how this

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process is supposed to work? Cryonics suspension starts as soon

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as possible after death has been pronounced. You cool down the body

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using ice, you circulate the blood, you add protectant is to prevent ice

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crystals forming and disrupting the tissue. Then you gradually lower the

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temperature until no decay and changes happen, and then you store

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the body in liquid nitrogen. OK. So when the body is brought back, I

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suppose this is where the controversy is. Even now the

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President of an American facility where this teenager has been frozen

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has said that patients might wake up as clones with no memories. There is

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no evidence yet of how you wake up and how healthy the body and the

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mind would be. By Alex cannot make any guarantees like that. We need --

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cryonics cannot make any guarantees like that and we need to develop the

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science. That might be decades in the future. But they have plenty of

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time. They can afford to wait because nothing is happening to

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them. Are you planning to do this after your death? I am signed up to

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it. I think there is a low chance, better than 1%, but that makes it

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rational for me. How would you imagine your future? I am waking up

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surrounded by people gleeful to find a scientist from the 21st century,

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ready to point out I was wrong. And I might find my nephews and nieces.

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Thank you. When I asked the doctor if he would do it, you grasped when

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he said yes. He is obviously a very clever man but he is not behaving in

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a clever way. It is a terrible thing. Brandon Stone's monster, I

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was scared of that as a child. I loved Star Trek. This sort of stuff

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is science fiction and that is where it should stay because there is no

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guarantee. 1% chance? That little girl was exploited and her parents

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and family have been exploited because they think there is a chance

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that you might come back, like Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus was

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for the Bible. We have just got to accept that we come into life and we

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go out. Death follows life. But do you understand a 14-year-old girl

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diagnosed with cancer who died who thought you should not die yet and

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that 1% chance, why not give somebody hope? Of course it is

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heartbreaking. You could not help but be moved by that letter. It

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might have been far better for that girl to do the wish list and try and

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carry out some of those wishes before death. It would have been

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better if her parents had talked to her at length, and I know there was

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disruption between the parents, saying that you are going to die and

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one day you might see mummy and daddy in a nicer place, not in a

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freezer in the United States which she is sharing with four other

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bodies. So you would put the idea of heaven over the chance of your body

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coming back to life? The remote possibility. I would. And even if we

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can achieve it, we shouldn't. You have investigated cryonics around

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the world and what was your response to this story? I was very moved by

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the response to this letter. It was heartbreaking to read. I think that

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the judge ruled in the correct way. I think that was the only decision

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that could be made. The girl has the right to decide what happens to her

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body after she dies. There is no certainty about this. The

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facilities, the cryonics organisation involved, they are very

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clear when they point out to patients that it is an experiment. I

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don't know what more they can do. I take your point, it is very

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delicate. She is 14. What does she know? I think we need to get real.

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Technology is changing our lives in so many ways. A whole generation is

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thinking about not just competing with automation machines but

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augmenting their capacity and potential with artificial

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intelligence. Given the desire to be resuscitated and come back from the

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dead, reflected in so many faiths, it is a fundamental human desire, so

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I don't think it is oppressing people want to use technology to do

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it. I have a more practical approach. My main concern about this

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is that technology is moving at an incredible speed but I don't think

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that the courts are really keeping up with it. One of the big debates

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about this girl was that scientists are complaining that the judges in

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allowing her wish did not go into the merits of whether the science

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woodwork and whether she would be brought back. Judges are not

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equipped to do that. There are no regulations around this and it is a

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completely grey space. We are facing very rapid change completely

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unprepared and there will be many more people who will be bringing up

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these ethical issues and we are not equipped to deal with them and that

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is something we need. The judge made it very clear that he was not

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deciding on science but on the future of the girl. You want to pick

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up on that? We are living in a world where they are... Things are

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changing very rapidly. There is a growing consensus of scientists who

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believe that ageing is potentially curable. There are also discussions

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around the first person to live to 1000 years old might already have

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been born. It sounds like the stuff of science fiction to me but there

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are very serious scientists, neuroscientists, talking about this.

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What is your opinion on this? Should we be in bracing the science? My

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view is that the girl should have been given all the different things

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available in order to make their own decision, an informed decision and

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as a Hindu we believe in reincarnation. We would say that

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when her body died, the sole moved on and it may have been reincarnated

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anyway, so to preserve the body and come back to the same body, for me

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it doesn't make sense. But for her, it should have been an informed

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decision, and I certainly wouldn't want to talk anybody out of it just

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to say that it should be an informed decision. This is the question,

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Doctor? How much information is given? Surely cryogenics is playing

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on people's emotions almost? When you have a terminal condition you

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are willing to try almost everything. It is worth noting that

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cryonics is not terribly popular despite having been around for 40

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years and I think you can make an informed choice. The girl here seem

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to know what was going on and it was a chance, not a certainty. It is not

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cheap, is it? The figure bandied around has been ?37,000 but it could

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cost as much as ?100,000. Cryogenics is certainly benefiting from these

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emotional times, shall we say? To some extent but if you want to be

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rich you probably shouldn't start a cryonics company. They have been

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around for a long time and they haven't got very large. People

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prefer to eat healthy food, rather than filling out forms and going

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through bureaucracy, which puts people off. Cryonics is about facing

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death. You have got to recognise that I am a biological being and I

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will die someday. Even with cryonics, sooner or later your luck

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will run out. This is a way of staying in the game longer. I always

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despair that we have incredibly scientific people with great brains

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advancing the technology. Why not deploy their incredible intellectual

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skills to trying to find a cure to the thing that kills that

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14-year-old rather than keeping a body alive at 200 years? The counter

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that to that is that if you keep the body, which can come back in 200

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years, by then that might be yours for this cancer, once science

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catches up, so why not take advantage? And does she come back

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with the brain of a 14-year-old and what state is her body in and what

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is the state of the cells? They could be badly damaged. It is very

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dubious science at best. That is why I don't think it is bad to accuse

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the scientists of exploiting anybody. She is not being promised

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to wake up in this condition on this day with memories. They are just

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promising a chance, maybe a 1% chance. For somebody facing death,

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they are willing to spend that money just to have that chance. But coming

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back to money there are real questions to ask about the

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inequality around this. We have seen dystopian movies where if you are

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wealthy you can live forever and have a limited life experiences and

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if you are poor you live in a ghetto that is overcrowded and medieval.

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The idea that this is something you can buy if you have enough money and

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you can come back and be cured and be immortal but if you are poor you

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have no control over how and where you die, and it feels like we are

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moving closer to that future that is worrying. It is an expense and it is

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a substantial amount of money. Just to point out, the cryonics

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organisations, the two main ones in America and the institute where the

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girl is preserved, they are not-for-profit organisations. They

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actually try, from my understanding, to offer cryonics at the most

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affordable price that they can. A lot of people that I have met pay

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for it through a life insurance policy. They are not having to stump

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up that feat in one amount. They are paying into a life-insurance policy

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at if you sign up to it when you are younger, it is less money and it

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will pay out when you die. Bharti, what are the religious

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implications of this? If we have a belief in reincarnation, where is

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the need to preserve the body? And if you don't have that belief? If

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you don't have, one of the things that needs to be done is to give

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people an opportunity to explore the different faiths and make a decision

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based on their knowledge rather than just going for something which

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preserves your body as it is. I do agree that it may not be in that

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pristine condition that it was preserved in. You don't know how

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long it's going to be there. What if you are someone who doesn't have

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faith? Well, it is the same thing. Should we all be more accepting of

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death? I do think that we are not aware of what death is and we don't

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accept that that is the end of life. We are too far away from death. We

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don't know it enough and it's something that frightens people,

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whereas it should be a part of life. Let's find out what you've been

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saying. You've been sending is us your thoughts on this. Interesting

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this one. A real mixed bag. A lot of people aren't questioning the

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ethical side but whether it's a waste of money, and it is your own

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body and you should be allowed to do what you want to do. For example:

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More hope in this than religion. Indeed. Dr Sandberg, what do you

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make of the idea of waking up with no friends, no family, in a

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different world? It would be sad, but then again maybe your friends

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and family could also sign up. Cryonics patients are refugees, they

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cannot survive here. Their only chance is to make a very daring

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journey into the future, which might not welcome them. However, it is

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worth do, because it's better than being dead. Bharti, one comment

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there said death is need to be accepted. That's right. It is a

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process. You are born, you live, you die, and then in my belief your soul

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is reincarnated in another body and you live again, if you like. That is

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not accepted. There are a lot of people, a lot of young people and

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older people who've never had to face a close death. So they are

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afraid of it, whereas it should be a part of your life journey. It is

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interfering with nature isn't it in the As someone said, interfere at

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your peril. I agree, big mistake, and a waste of money. I agree with

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that as well. My cryonicist would refer to it as being an ambulance of

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the future, that this isn't any different to having a heart bypass

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or any other life-saving medical intervention, it is using the

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medical technology of the future rather than what's available today.

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It is a way of getting there. So some don't see that conflict between

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religion and cryonics, they are extending their life, this physical

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life that we know that exists now, and the religious afterlife is

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something that is just being pushed back, perhaps. I think that we could

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talk about this for a long time. Thank you very much panel for your

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thoughts on that one. And thank you four your thoughts. Do keep them

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coming in. Still to come on Sunday Morning

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Live: London's Mayor Sadiq Khan on his campaign to bring Britain's

:19:16.:19:18.

communities closer together. There's a school of thought that

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says it is not possible, for example, to have mainstream Muslims

:19:28.:19:30.

being compatible with western liberal values. I think that's

:19:31.:19:32.

nonsense. Now it's time to meet a bit

:19:33.:19:37.

of a television legend. Len Goodman, the cheeky chappie

:19:38.:19:40.

and master of the one-liner, is head judge on the BBC's

:19:41.:19:42.

Strictly Come Dancing. Len's announced he's

:19:43.:19:45.

leaving the show this year. So I went to see him to get some

:19:46.:19:47.

reflections on his life in front Having taken part in Strictly,

:19:48.:19:51.

I know all too well So it was a bit of a relief

:19:52.:19:54.

to meet him without He wasn't going be marking me on

:19:55.:19:59.

style and my non-fancy footwork! Len? It was like a cowpat on

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Countryfile. Hot and steamy! CHEERING. Let's go back to when

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dancing first started in your life. I was 21. I'm sitting in a pub and I

:20:27.:20:32.

said to one of my mates, shall we go to the pictures tomorrow night? He

:20:33.:20:37.

said, no, it's Wednesday, I go ballroom dancing. I said, you don't!

:20:38.:20:43.

He said, why. And he had never told you this before? No, a secret.

:20:44.:20:49.

Ballroom? Why? Len, there's about four boys and there's about 40

:20:50.:20:53.

girls. I said, I'm coming. So there I was and I got cracking on with it

:20:54.:20:58.

and then started teaching. Starting judging. And so it went. And then 50

:20:59.:21:05.

years later I got asked to do Strictly. Please welcome, the

:21:06.:21:10.

judges. CHEERING. Len Goodman...

:21:11.:21:17.

You floated across that floor like butter on a hot crumpet.

:21:18.:21:24.

CHEERING. How do you explain Strictly's success? What's the magic

:21:25.:21:31.

formula? It is like an old-fashioned variety show, with dancers, singers,

:21:32.:21:35.

music, a little bit of comedy going on. Plus there is an edge, because

:21:36.:21:40.

it's competitive. And what is wonderful about it is you can see

:21:41.:21:47.

the celebrities, how hard they work. People see that you give up

:21:48.:21:51.

everything just to learn that one dance for that week.

:21:52.:22:01.

Let's talk about the controversy surrounding Strictly. Every year it

:22:02.:22:16.

happens, the argument about whether should it be a dance competition, or

:22:17.:22:21.

should it be an entertainment show? We have to judge purely be our

:22:22.:22:27.

brains purely with our brains. The viewers, they want to be

:22:28.:22:31.

entertained, and quite rightly so, so they can judge with their hearts.

:22:32.:22:36.

But I think also the public like justice. So there does come a point,

:22:37.:22:42.

and there has in the past, when they realise that really good dancers are

:22:43.:22:46.

going and lesser dancers are staying. I think that's when they

:22:47.:22:50.

say, oh, no, enough is enough. You've got a great turn of phrase,

:22:51.:22:56.

Len. That's my granddad. My granddad was always coming out with things.

:22:57.:23:01.

One of hisisation, and it is true today, you can't help how your mum

:23:02.:23:05.

put your hat on, and so it is. You can't help you you were brought up

:23:06.:23:09.

and that's how you become. When I used to teach dancing, I use to say,

:23:10.:23:15.

no, you can't do this, it's all sizzle and no sausage, all

:23:16.:23:20.

performance and no meat to it. It wasisation like that I use on

:23:21.:23:24.

Strictly. The trouble is I'm a cup of tea in a world of skinny lattes.

:23:25.:23:30.

What was your code to life, having a good life? When you are young, love

:23:31.:23:35.

your parents, because they love you. As they get older the roles reverse.

:23:36.:23:41.

My family comes first. My wife, Sue, my son, James. His partner, Sophie.

:23:42.:23:46.

Little Alice, my first granddaughter. These are the most

:23:47.:23:50.

important people to me. More important than golf! So would it be

:23:51.:23:54.

unfair to describe you as a man of favourite then? No, I think,

:23:55.:23:58.

especially as you get older, because you are getting nearer and nearer

:23:59.:24:02.

and you don't want to take any chances do you really? My...

:24:03.:24:10.

Jehovah's Witnesses with, so they used to chat to me as a little boy,

:24:11.:24:17.

little Lenny, about God. That's always been in my head and they

:24:18.:24:25.

convinced me to a large degree that there must be something more than

:24:26.:24:31.

just you come on this earth, you live your four score years and ten,

:24:32.:24:36.

or whatever it is, and you pop your catalogues and that's it. Pop your

:24:37.:24:41.

clogs and that's it. You love a good tune. I do. And you have put

:24:42.:24:48.

together Crooners and Swooners. When I look at this CD am I seeing the

:24:49.:24:53.

soundtrack to your life? You are. When I was a little kid my dad used

:24:54.:24:58.

to put me in the front room and put on the radio gram, putting on

:24:59.:25:04.

Sinatra and Bing Crosby and fats Waller, so I grew one all that sort

:25:05.:25:09.

of music in my head and loving it. You hit a couple of lines and

:25:10.:25:13.

positions which are brilliant. Then you seemed to lose focus.

:25:14.:25:18.

I think you get nervous. I have still got nerves to battle and I

:25:19.:25:21.

will. I want to take you back a few weeks. It was disaster. What

:25:22.:25:26.

happened? I got voted out of Strictly. What a liberty! Too early,

:25:27.:25:30.

right? It's always too early for everyone. Of course it is. Think

:25:31.:25:36.

back. Yeah. I got my best score from you that week. Can you remember what

:25:37.:25:41.

it was? I'm pretty sure it was, I think it was more than a six and

:25:42.:25:49.

less than an 8. I'm going to say it, it was a Severn! I'm sorry I didn't

:25:50.:25:55.

have time to you've give you a 10 from Len, but it is what it is. It's

:25:56.:26:00.

in my dreams. Such a pleasure. The pleasure's mine. I have enjoyed it.

:26:01.:26:07.

Lovely chat. I'm going to put it into text talk. GRH! Len Goodman

:26:08.:26:09.

there. He really is a lovely guy. Now let's move

:26:10.:26:13.

on to our next debate. The number of people behind bars

:26:14.:26:15.

in Britain is at a record level. This week, up to 10,000 prison

:26:16.:26:18.

officers in England and Wales walked out in protest,

:26:19.:26:20.

despite the fact they're legally not They say they're worried

:26:21.:26:23.

about what they call the volatile state of jails

:26:24.:26:26.

and fears of violence. The Ministry of Justice says it's

:26:27.:26:30.

committed to safety and is investing extra money in

:26:31.:26:33.

recruiting more staff. But the Chief Inspector of Prisons

:26:34.:26:36.

claimed this week there are hundreds of people in prison

:26:37.:26:38.

who shouldn't be there. So should we keep fewer

:26:39.:26:41.

people in prisons? Joining the panel now are writer

:26:42.:26:45.

and critic Alexander Boot and interfaith activist and founder

:26:46.:26:48.

of the Active Change Also joining us down

:26:49.:26:50.

the line is Eric Allison, prison correspondent

:26:51.:26:57.

for the Guardian, who has had his own personal experience

:26:58.:26:59.

of serving time in prison. Eric, thank you for joining us.

:27:00.:27:08.

Bearing in mind your experience as a prisoner, do you think there are too

:27:09.:27:14.

many people in prison? Can I say, I first went into custody in 1957.

:27:15.:27:20.

I've been a student of the system ever since. While I was in and out

:27:21.:27:24.

of the system and since I've been writing for the Guardian. I can say

:27:25.:27:28.

with absolute certainty the prison system now is in a far worse state

:27:29.:27:32.

than at any time since I've known it. If I give you a quick snapshot,

:27:33.:27:42.

we lock up more people in England and Wales than any country in

:27:43.:27:46.

Western Europe. The prison population has doubled since 1993.

:27:47.:27:48.

The number of staff has been reduced by a third. This has created

:27:49.:27:55.

turmoil. In the last year, there were six apparent prison on prisoner

:27:56.:28:01.

homicides. There were over 2,000 serious prisoner on prisoner

:28:02.:28:08.

assaults, and over 600 prisoner on staff assaults. And there was 32,000

:28:09.:28:13.

recorded incidents of self harm. And the statistics there that you've

:28:14.:28:18.

been quoting very much frightening. Alexander, do you think this is an

:28:19.:28:23.

accurate assessment, overall the statistics are there, but an

:28:24.:28:32.

accurate assessment what prisons are like in the UK? I'm not sure I like

:28:33.:28:36.

the question of whether we put too many or too few people in jail.

:28:37.:28:42.

There is no such thing as too many or too few, only how many does it

:28:43.:28:48.

take for the state to perform one of its legitimate function which is is

:28:49.:28:53.

protecting Her Majesty's subjects from internal crime and external

:28:54.:29:01.

enemies. If it takes building more prisons and then filling them to the

:29:02.:29:07.

gunwales, so be it. Or on alternative system? Or alternatively

:29:08.:29:11.

reduce the amount of crime, because Britain, yes it has the highest

:29:12.:29:16.

prison population in Western Europe, per capita, but it has by far the

:29:17.:29:19.

highest rate of violent crime this Europe, so I have to see a causal

:29:20.:29:27.

relationship there, the more crime we have, the more prisoners we will

:29:28.:29:32.

have. If that particular correlation was distorted, justice isn't being

:29:33.:29:34.

done. As a barrister, you have worked with

:29:35.:29:42.

prisoners and not all prisoners are therefore violent crimes either.

:29:43.:29:47.

Your view on this and the conditions they are facing, what is your

:29:48.:29:54.

attitude? I disagree with that. It is much too simplistic. There are

:29:55.:29:58.

many people in prison who shouldn't be and it is well documented that we

:29:59.:30:02.

lock up people for minor, non-violent offences, even though

:30:03.:30:05.

spending time in prison is likely to make them more violent and more

:30:06.:30:09.

likely to commit serious offences. If they are there for a long period

:30:10.:30:14.

of time? Short prison services are the worst possible sentence for

:30:15.:30:21.

people because it removes the possibility of rehabilitating and it

:30:22.:30:23.

doesn't prevent them committing crime because of crimes are

:30:24.:30:26.

committed for reasons of poverty and struggling with everyday life. We

:30:27.:30:30.

are locking up too many people. To pick up on that point, is that the

:30:31.:30:34.

issue, the fact they are not rehabilitated effectively in prison?

:30:35.:30:38.

Rather than it being wrong to people up for committing crimes? There are

:30:39.:30:45.

huge deficiencies in rehabilitation in prisons and I don't think that is

:30:46.:30:48.

party political because I was working in prisons under the Labour

:30:49.:30:50.

government and even then there was this narrative that giving

:30:51.:30:55.

opportunities to prisoners is going soft which is insane because as a

:30:56.:31:00.

society we pay the price will not debilitating people. I have been

:31:01.:31:03.

into prisons where the governor is frustrated because he has got to

:31:04.:31:07.

build extra cells in his education centre, the place where you are

:31:08.:31:10.

supposed to be teaching many of these people. Many are literate,

:31:11.:31:14.

which is also criminal, that they have been through the school system

:31:15.:31:17.

and cannot read and write and prison is where they could learn, but

:31:18.:31:19.

because of overcrowding those spaces are used to imprison more

:31:20.:31:33.

people and when they come out they have not been given any greater

:31:34.:31:36.

opportunities. I will come to your second point in a moment but I would

:31:37.:31:39.

like your reaction as well. We are asking whether we should send fewer

:31:40.:31:41.

people to prison but we also talking about the effectiveness of prison.

:31:42.:31:44.

Exactly. We should send fewer people to prison. Reoffending has become a

:31:45.:31:46.

huge problem. The majority of people are going back into the prison

:31:47.:31:49.

system and they are the young men and women who are reoffending,

:31:50.:31:54.

because rehabilitation and other initiatives are not supported enough

:31:55.:31:57.

to prevent reoffending from happening in the first place. We

:31:58.:32:01.

know the government has pumped a lot of money into reduction of

:32:02.:32:05.

reoffending but it hasn't worked, and they are pumping it in again to

:32:06.:32:09.

the same institutions that have failed. Money is pumped into it but

:32:10.:32:12.

we know that the institutions that are being used to reduce reoffending

:32:13.:32:17.

are not being successful. Why? Because it hasn't been taken

:32:18.:32:20.

seriously by the institutions that are supposed to be delivering it.

:32:21.:32:29.

The main issue within the prisons is that we know we can mental people

:32:30.:32:32.

through the prison system when they are about to leave which will limit

:32:33.:32:36.

the chance of them coming back in again. -- mentor. And the Justice

:32:37.:32:44.

Secretary has said that mentoring will be part of this new plan. You

:32:45.:32:47.

think we should send fewer people to prison. I think some people

:32:48.:32:52.

shouldn't be there. You certainly shouldn't be there if you haven't

:32:53.:32:56.

paid fines, haven't paid your TV licence. Successive Tory Home

:32:57.:32:59.

secretaries have said they will solve the foreign prisoner problem.

:33:00.:33:04.

There are 11,000 foreign prisoners in this country and maybe we could

:33:05.:33:07.

send them back to their own countries. I was talking to Ann

:33:08.:33:11.

Widdecombe about the big problem here, who was prisons minister under

:33:12.:33:15.

John Major, and some prisoners are in their cells for 24 hours a day

:33:16.:33:19.

which is barbaric. They should be out everyday learning, learning to

:33:20.:33:22.

read and write because of the problems of illiteracy in prisons,

:33:23.:33:26.

or employed in a business which should be run like a business with

:33:27.:33:30.

proper check going on. The big problem is there are too many of

:33:31.:33:36.

them. -- profit share going on. And there is a picture of prisoners on

:33:37.:33:46.

the Daily Mail eating takeaway fish and chips, taking pictures on the

:33:47.:33:50.

mobile phones, bringing in drugs in drones with the connivance of prison

:33:51.:33:57.

officers. Sentences were created by the criminal justice act were used

:33:58.:34:02.

from April 2005, designed to extend the term for a prisoner if they were

:34:03.:34:08.

deemed to be unsafe or society upon relief. What is your idea on that? I

:34:09.:34:13.

am not I like the idea, to be perfectly honest. I do think our

:34:14.:34:16.

judges pass sentences that are way too lenient to begin with. If they

:34:17.:34:20.

weren't, there would be no need for this. Last year alone something like

:34:21.:34:28.

558 sentences were toughened up on appeal. I think if a person is

:34:29.:34:35.

sentenced to a certain term in prison, and services term, and pays,

:34:36.:34:41.

as it were, the debt to society, I think he should be released. Even if

:34:42.:34:48.

they could endanger the public? Isn't that the point of prison, that

:34:49.:34:52.

you rehabilitate? There would be other ways of controlling that.

:34:53.:34:57.

Sentencing is not a science. It is very difficult to get it right. The

:34:58.:35:01.

press often talk about lenient sentences and there are lots of

:35:02.:35:04.

prisoners who get their sentences reduced on appeal when judges get it

:35:05.:35:11.

wrong. I understand the concept of the IPP, where you review if a

:35:12.:35:14.

prisoner is safe to be released into society, but to have a system like

:35:15.:35:17.

that you need to have functional prisons. People are being sent to

:35:18.:35:21.

prison and they are not able to get on any of the rehabilitation courses

:35:22.:35:24.

that would make them eligible for release. You are stuck in an

:35:25.:35:27.

Orwellian nightmare where you can't prove that you are able to be

:35:28.:35:31.

released because the courses are not available, there are no resources,

:35:32.:35:37.

you are in yourself and for hours a day, and you cannot prove it or get

:35:38.:35:40.

released, so you stay in prison indefinitely. There are people who

:35:41.:35:42.

have stayed eight to ten years longer than their initial sentence

:35:43.:35:47.

because they could not prove they were ready to be released. I agree

:35:48.:35:53.

with you in general. This is overemphasised. In descending order

:35:54.:35:57.

of priority the function of prison is to punish wrongdoing, to deter

:35:58.:36:06.

subsequent wrongdoing, and rehabilitation. That comes very way

:36:07.:36:11.

down on the list. We will come to you in a moment. Eric you have been

:36:12.:36:15.

shaking your head listening to this discussion. The reaction? There are

:36:16.:36:19.

so many things I can't believe here. Firstly that rehabilitation is low

:36:20.:36:25.

down the order. Almost half of adult prisoners who are least offence

:36:26.:36:31.

within 12 months. Over two thirds of young offenders under 18 reoffend

:36:32.:36:36.

within 12 months. By the way, they are only the people caught

:36:37.:36:40.

reoffending, so the figure is even higher. Lenient sentences? No. We

:36:41.:36:46.

lock up more people than any other country in Europe and we lock them

:36:47.:36:49.

up for longer. We have seen the failure. What we are doing at the

:36:50.:36:54.

moment is just putting people in warehouses. That used to be the case

:36:55.:36:59.

for the local prisons, they were known as warehouses when nothing was

:37:00.:37:02.

done. But I come across training prisons now, called training

:37:03.:37:08.

prisons, where people are locked up 22 hours a day. What are they

:37:09.:37:13.

training for? Idleness? Daytime television critics? Look at the cost

:37:14.:37:18.

of what we are doing, the cost of this failure. The average cost of

:37:19.:37:23.

keeping a person in prison is ?36,000 a year. When you move up to

:37:24.:37:27.

young offenders it is nearly ?70,000. When you come to secure

:37:28.:37:31.

training centres which are run by private companies, by the way, we

:37:32.:37:37.

are paying private companies ?163,000 per year per child per

:37:38.:37:44.

place. ?163,000 per year to a private company. Again we come back

:37:45.:37:48.

to the people in prison. The vast majority of people in prison are

:37:49.:37:53.

doing short sentences. They are mainly non-violent, by the way. They

:37:54.:37:57.

are nuisances rather than a danger. We call it the churn, the revolving

:37:58.:38:04.

door. They get arrested, they serve a short sentence and they reoffend.

:38:05.:38:10.

I am just going to reiterate what I said before. It is the reduction of

:38:11.:38:13.

reoffending that needs to be emphasised again. Don't forget, we

:38:14.:38:20.

have people who are threats to national security and the public and

:38:21.:38:25.

they are in prison and no matter what happens, the rehabilitation

:38:26.:38:29.

isn't working. So where do you put them, Andrew? I am not sure. If the

:38:30.:38:35.

answer to build more prisons? I don't know. When we talk about

:38:36.:38:39.

prisons, we forget about the victims. Every crime has a victim,

:38:40.:38:44.

even if it is forgetting your TV licence. Every crime has a victim.

:38:45.:38:49.

When victims seek some prisoners living it up behind bars, that is

:38:50.:38:52.

not what they thought the deal would be. There should be an element of

:38:53.:38:58.

punishment as well. I do agree that we are not doing enough to

:38:59.:39:01.

rehabilitate these guys. Let's hear what you have been thinking about

:39:02.:39:05.

this discussion. Thank you for your texts and tweets. In general people

:39:06.:39:09.

are in support of the prison system that they are concerned about

:39:10.:39:11.

whether enough rehabilitation is going on. Michael Mates the same

:39:12.:39:14.

point as Andrew on the panel made. This is what people get angry about.

:39:15.:39:56.

You mentioned those images of people living in almost luxury with pool

:39:57.:40:00.

tables and fish and chips. I wish everybody could go into a prison and

:40:01.:40:03.

see what it is like. The idea that prisoners are living it up in a lap

:40:04.:40:08.

of luxury, I have never seen it. I have been into prisons so many

:40:09.:40:13.

times. The reality of prison is you are incarcerated, locked up with no

:40:14.:40:16.

freedom, you can't see who you want to see or go where you want to go.

:40:17.:40:23.

That is the essential nature of the punishment and what they are

:40:24.:40:25.

sentenced to. They're not sentenced to additional forms of torture

:40:26.:40:29.

depending on the resources. You have got to remember that they are in

:40:30.:40:34.

here to serve their time. Why are they all on their mobile phones

:40:35.:40:39.

doing drug deals? That is not right. You are painting a picture and it is

:40:40.:40:43.

not like that. I saw the photographs this week. Are you saying the isn't

:40:44.:40:48.

a drugs problem in prisons? I don't see mobile phones when I go in. I'm

:40:49.:40:52.

not saying it isn't happening. It is. I would imagine as a victim of

:40:53.:40:59.

crime you want the person who offended against you released no

:41:00.:41:01.

longer a threat than a danger which would be far greater concern than

:41:02.:41:05.

what they are eating. In theory I would love to continue this

:41:06.:41:09.

conversation but the reality of my life is that time is always against

:41:10.:41:16.

us. I have got to close this discussion. Thank you so much and

:41:17.:41:17.

please keep your comments coming in. The Mayor of London Sadiq Khan this

:41:18.:41:21.

week called for an end to the politics of fear and division

:41:22.:41:24.

following the Brexit campaign here and the American

:41:25.:41:26.

presidential elections. At an international conference

:41:27.:41:28.

in the capital, he warned that more integration of communities in the UK

:41:29.:41:30.

is vital for the future and called for the building

:41:31.:41:33.

of bridges not walls. Nikki Bedi went to meet

:41:34.:41:35.

the Mayor to find out more. Sadiq, you have called for an end to

:41:36.:41:46.

the politics of division and for greater integration in our cities.

:41:47.:41:52.

Why is that so important in your view? 2016 has seen major upheaval

:41:53.:41:57.

around the world. The decision to leave the EU, the US presidential

:41:58.:42:01.

elections, divisive political forces rising across the world and we have

:42:02.:42:05.

got the choice. We can either build bridges or build walls. I think the

:42:06.:42:12.

reality is that diversity is a strength that diversity is not the

:42:13.:42:16.

same as integration. In terms of what Donald Trump has been talking

:42:17.:42:20.

about, he wants to build a wall to keep out illegal Mexican immigrants.

:42:21.:42:26.

He also wants to clamp down on Muslims entering the country. Do you

:42:27.:42:30.

think in any way that will fold into our lifestyles and decision-making?

:42:31.:42:34.

There is a school of thought that says it is not possible for example

:42:35.:42:38.

to have mainstream Muslim is compatible with western liberal

:42:39.:42:42.

values. That is nonsense. Of course people have got genuine concerns.

:42:43.:42:46.

The inability to get your son or daughter into a good school, to get

:42:47.:42:49.

your luck on the health care he or she needs, to get decent affordable

:42:50.:42:57.

housing for your nephews and nieces. -- to get your loved one the health

:42:58.:43:01.

care they need. These are legitimate concerns but we need to address

:43:02.:43:03.

these fears rather than playing on them. There are people who believe

:43:04.:43:08.

that the Muslim communities in the UK don't integrate. Why do they feel

:43:09.:43:13.

that? We have got to grapple with these issues. If it is the case that

:43:14.:43:17.

certain parts of society are not mixing, and they are living

:43:18.:43:20.

side-by-side rather than with meaningful engagement, we have got

:43:21.:43:24.

to help them integrate. Sometimes it is basic stuff. Making sure that

:43:25.:43:27.

schools are as diverse as they can be. Making sure that housing is

:43:28.:43:32.

mixed. Helping people learn English not cutting the grounds for colleges

:43:33.:43:40.

that teach English. Helping employers train up youngsters from

:43:41.:43:42.

diverse backgrounds to have the skills for the jobs of tomorrow. How

:43:43.:43:47.

much do you think or know that your faith informs your politics? I am

:43:48.:43:51.

Muslim and I'm very proud of that but I'm not just a Muslim. I am

:43:52.:43:56.

somebody who is a Londoner, English, British, of Asian origin, Pakistani

:43:57.:44:03.

heritage, Islamic faith, I am a dad, husband, I am not the Muslim

:44:04.:44:06.

spokesperson and I am definitely not Citizen Khan! Although you made that

:44:07.:44:11.

wonderful appearance. I am looking for Mr Khan. Mr Khan? Yes, that's

:44:12.:44:22.

me. Citizen Khan at your service! Hang on, I'm the Mayor of London.

:44:23.:44:27.

Yeah, and I'm the Archbishop of Canterbury! Do something! We all

:44:28.:44:36.

have layers of our identity and it is really important that we are not

:44:37.:44:40.

embarrassed by that. What I am saying is that integration is not

:44:41.:44:44.

the same as assimilation. Citizen Khan is a fictional and very funny

:44:45.:44:48.

programme but it is not my role to be a community leader who is a

:44:49.:44:52.

Muslim politician. I am a Muslim who happens to be a politician. Thank

:44:53.:44:54.

you. Sadiq Khan, London's Mayor,

:44:55.:44:56.

with his views there, but is genuine integration

:44:57.:44:58.

achievable in the UK? We are rejoined now

:44:59.:45:00.

by Bharti Tailor, head Affua, Sadiq Khan calling for an end

:45:01.:45:16.

to the politics of division. More integration of our cities, is that

:45:17.:45:21.

possible? When I hear people saying integration has failed,

:45:22.:45:23.

multiculturalism has failed, I think you are trying to kill something

:45:24.:45:27.

that you never gave a chance to thrive. One of the things I enjoyed

:45:28.:45:31.

about the interview with Sadiq Khan is he is unpicking some of the

:45:32.:45:37.

language. If you ask people what integration means, they might

:45:38.:45:42.

struggle. We've got terms like integration, assimilation,

:45:43.:45:44.

multiculturalism, there is no consensus as to what we aspire to in

:45:45.:45:50.

our society. Do we want everybody to behave the same or are we happy to

:45:51.:45:54.

be a society where people have different identities that they are

:45:55.:45:58.

proud of. It is not about having to forget where you are from, you have

:45:59.:46:04.

to forget the cultural values that you were raised with and which you

:46:05.:46:08.

are attached to. We have to work out what you nights us and ask people to

:46:09.:46:12.

be part of that project. We haven't done that. That. We see the talk

:46:13.:46:19.

about British values this schools. Even the Government couldn't define

:46:20.:46:27.

what that is. So much termology and ideas, Andrew I wonder if in this

:46:28.:46:33.

political climate, post Brexit, post American elections, people are

:46:34.:46:36.

saying there've been protest votes, angry votes, is this the right time

:46:37.:46:41.

to push for integration? It is the best time to do it because of the

:46:42.:46:47.

problems we have seen. We may yet see Marine Le Pen win in France, the

:46:48.:46:52.

National Front. I lived in the East End of London. There's been no

:46:53.:46:57.

attempt at integration. I went into a doctor's surgery and there were 14

:46:58.:47:02.

different languages on the wall and three different interpreters in that

:47:03.:47:05.

doctor's surgery. That was 12 years ago that. Number will have

:47:06.:47:10.

multiplied. We've seen evidence of what is called the white flight. I

:47:11.:47:16.

can't bear the expression but it is number of white people thought to

:47:17.:47:21.

have left London in the last decade, 600,000. Do they feel their cultural

:47:22.:47:28.

identity is being squeezed in parts of theest evened in particular. The

:47:29.:47:33.

Tower Hamlets the overwhelming number of people are not

:47:34.:47:37.

Anglo-Saxon, they are from Bangladesh and the Asian subcontinue

:47:38.:47:41.

innocent. We should be living together harmoniously, not feeling

:47:42.:47:44.

we have to move somewhere else. Hanif? If we don't do it now, we are

:47:45.:47:51.

going to miss the boat, let's say. We've got a culture that's been

:47:52.:47:57.

created in America, the nation that's divided on immigrants and

:47:58.:48:01.

near the UK Brexit. It is all about immigrants, so if we don't create

:48:02.:48:06.

the integration strategies now which have already been there but haven't

:48:07.:48:12.

been emphasised, the NGOs, the community gait keepers have got to

:48:13.:48:18.

reinforce the integration narrative. It can be done and if we don't do it

:48:19.:48:24.

now we'll lose a generation. Bharti? What all policies have in common is

:48:25.:48:28.

they don't give enough time. A policy will be brought in and it is

:48:29.:48:32.

given ten years. If you look at communities, they take a lot longer

:48:33.:48:37.

to development one of the factors missing from any integration policy,

:48:38.:48:40.

whether it is multiculturalism or whatever it may be, it is this

:48:41.:48:45.

factor of time that is not there. Do you feel once an idea is introduced

:48:46.:48:52.

people could perhaps feel forced to integrate, uncomfortably rub along

:48:53.:48:55.

with each other rather than it be an organic process? Yes, that's exactly

:48:56.:48:59.

it. If you disappoint have enough time, you don't have time for that

:49:00.:49:03.

organic process to take place. It is not just time but resources. I was

:49:04.:49:07.

speaking to somebody who's been advising Angela Merkel's Government

:49:08.:49:11.

in Germany on integrating there, a huge influx of refugees and

:49:12.:49:15.

immigrants they have had in the last few years. They are pouring

:49:16.:49:20.

phenomenal amounts of money into communities where immigrants have

:49:21.:49:25.

moved, not just for the immigrant population but the previous

:49:26.:49:27.

population, so there are enough services is. It is about policy,

:49:28.:49:33.

services, a squeeze on housing, a shortage of school places. These are

:49:34.:49:37.

predictable, something the Government should have planned for.

:49:38.:49:40.

Instead there are competition for these resources. The people

:49:41.:49:44.

frustrated with that are project their frustration on the

:49:45.:49:46.

communities. Is there an economic side to this as well, a feeling of

:49:47.:49:52.

the haves and the have nots? If I may, it is mainly when we are going

:49:53.:49:57.

through bad times. Yes. People start to feel the pinch, see that jobs

:49:58.:50:01.

they would like to do, previously didn't want to do, have gone to

:50:02.:50:05.

somebody else. When we've got a period of wealth and everybody is

:50:06.:50:09.

happy, you won't find Tim grant problem. You won't find integration

:50:10.:50:13.

being a problem. It is when something happens or there's less

:50:14.:50:15.

resources, that's when everybody starts to feel the pinch. We know

:50:16.:50:22.

from our example of tackling extremism, we hear we need to

:50:23.:50:27.

integrate, have cohesiveness, we should be doing that all the time.

:50:28.:50:31.

At a young age, we have the youth to do it. We live side by side wouldn't

:50:32.:50:37.

being forced to integrate? It is difficult to force anybody to do

:50:38.:50:41.

anything. The pressures forced by the failure to act, just go to

:50:42.:50:44.

Rotherham, where there was the terrible problem of the sexual abuse

:50:45.:50:49.

of the young white girls seen as trashy objects by the largely

:50:50.:50:53.

Pakistani community. It was the failure of the police, the council,

:50:54.:50:57.

the social services to tackle it because they were worried about

:50:58.:51:01.

social cohesion, how white react, they would be seen as racist, so the

:51:02.:51:05.

victim there is were the white girls. So we are too politically

:51:06.:51:10.

correct and scared? Yes, it is a problem. It is true, I don't like

:51:11.:51:14.

the term political correctness, but the idea that people feel they can't

:51:15.:51:19.

speak is really dangerous. That's why some of these resentments are

:51:20.:51:26.

simmering. We need to grow out of the narrative when a Muslim commits

:51:27.:51:34.

a murder, the whole Muslim community is asked to apologise. Nobody asks a

:51:35.:51:39.

will person to apologise when it's a mass murderer or a gunman on the

:51:40.:51:46.

loose, but when it's a visible immigrant... I'm not an immigrant, I

:51:47.:51:52.

was born here and we are still regarded as immigrants and

:51:53.:51:54.

responsible for the fact that people don't want to live in certain areas

:51:55.:52:00.

because we live there. That's not a sustainable way of living in our

:52:01.:52:05.

country. Bharti? You mentioned housing and the white flight, but

:52:06.:52:10.

the more settled minority communities or immigrant communities

:52:11.:52:15.

also move out of certain areas as they get prosperous, and the people

:52:16.:52:19.

that come in are from a newer migrant community. So there is

:52:20.:52:24.

always a transfer and there is always people moving out to suburbs

:52:25.:52:28.

and more prosperous areas, because they can afford to. I'm not sure I

:52:29.:52:34.

recognise what you are talking about when you say the entire perform

:52:35.:52:37.

community is expected to apologise when there's been a murder. The only

:52:38.:52:42.

time that's an issue is when there is an incident with a terrorist link

:52:43.:52:52.

to it. Why terrorism. Jo Cox, that's not a terrorism, the He was a white

:52:53.:53:00.

extremist. This is how Muslim communities feel. A lot of this has

:53:01.:53:04.

been put on them many times. When there's been a terrorist incident,

:53:05.:53:08.

it is put on them that they have to apologise for the act of somebody

:53:09.:53:13.

else. Not acting with their faith. We have to call a terrorist a

:53:14.:53:18.

terrorist and of an Islamist. The Jo Cox case is ongoing, so we are have

:53:19.:53:25.

to avoid talking about that, without prejudicing that case. I want to go

:53:26.:53:30.

back to class. We are talking about divided cultures but what about

:53:31.:53:34.

class, the idea, Andrew, that people feel that economically they are

:53:35.:53:39.

divided now? As Bharti was saying about certain areas, people become

:53:40.:53:42.

prosperous and mover out. There is still an issue economically that

:53:43.:53:46.

people feel hard done by. They feel they are left behind. This horrible

:53:47.:53:50.

word globalisation that everybody talks about, that sweeps through the

:53:51.:53:54.

world's economy making a lot of people a lot better off. In working

:53:55.:53:58.

class disadvantaged areas where a lot of the immigrant communities

:53:59.:54:01.

live, they've been left behind. There are white people living in

:54:02.:54:07.

those areas too. Look at Canary Wharf, tenements blocks where my

:54:08.:54:11.

father was brought up in in the 1930s, a lot of those people are

:54:12.:54:15.

left behind. A great part of the imgrant community have done very

:54:16.:54:19.

well and I'm pleased for it. But the economics of recession makes this

:54:20.:54:22.

problem worse. It doesn't help that the people who make policy decisions

:54:23.:54:27.

about immigration don't live in areas that are suffering from loss

:54:28.:54:31.

of resources. People living side by side with large influxes of

:54:32.:54:34.

immigrants. That creates a feeling that the people who've the

:54:35.:54:37.

discussion don't understand their problems. That's why we see protest

:54:38.:54:42.

votes. Brexit to me was an example of that. Tommy, you have reaction to

:54:43.:54:49.

this. People are saying that immigration is unlikely and the

:54:50.:54:52.

willingness and desire isn't there. Some are saying it is possible if we

:54:53.:54:56.

learn to respect and accept each other.

:54:57.:55:41.

That's optimistic! Thank you Tommy. Hanif, there was one comment there

:55:42.:55:49.

saying it is money that divides. We were talking about the class issue,

:55:50.:55:53.

of course it is. The historically it has always been an issue. So it is

:55:54.:55:58.

money, not colour that divides? Every time something happens around

:55:59.:56:02.

the world, we can't walk away from the fact we've got conflict all

:56:03.:56:07.

around the world. Post 9/11 the dynamics changed and people's

:56:08.:56:10.

perspectives are shifting towards the negative. Look around the world,

:56:11.:56:14.

in every single western nation, it is more a Muslim terrorist thing

:56:15.:56:17.

than anything else. A lot of things need to be done. We need bring

:56:18.:56:21.

people together. We've worked with young people from different walks of

:56:22.:56:24.

life, different cultural backgrounds. We've managed to bring

:56:25.:56:29.

them together and you know what? The forged friendships work. They

:56:30.:56:32.

communicate with each other. If we can encourage that, not force it,

:56:33.:56:37.

but encourage it, we should. There was a time, Andrew, when people were

:56:38.:56:40.

upset about the Polish workers coming here. It wasn't about race or

:56:41.:56:46.

colour, but from another country, economically taking advantage of us.

:56:47.:56:50.

Pinching our jobs, driving wages down. Remember it was a Labour Prime

:56:51.:56:57.

Minister, Gordon Brown, who had the mantra British jobs for British

:56:58.:57:01.

workers and they couldn't enforce that. Bharti? Jobs is one issue.

:57:02.:57:07.

Issue. When through financial worries people turn to those that

:57:08.:57:11.

are different to them in order to blame, if you like. We also see the

:57:12.:57:17.

gen. Generational change which you referred to, the generation that are

:57:18.:57:21.

born here, have a different attitude. Their way of living also

:57:22.:57:25.

changes a little bit to perhaps what they see in the host community. When

:57:26.:57:29.

you look at the long term thing, which is what I was saying before,

:57:30.:57:34.

time also helps. The second, the third generation, they do have a

:57:35.:57:38.

different attitude. I want to pick up on the comment that Tommy has,

:57:39.:57:44.

that immigration has never worked and never will. We don't knee the

:57:45.:57:49.

nation that we live in. This has been an immigrant nation for 2,000

:57:50.:57:52.

years and we've absorbed so many waves of immigration. There were

:57:53.:57:56.

African immigrants before there were English people. That's an important

:57:57.:58:02.

point to end with. Thank you so much for your views.

:58:03.:58:04.

That's just about all from us for this week

:58:05.:58:06.

I've loved joining you every Sunday and I hope you've enjoyed

:58:07.:58:12.

We'll leave you with the work of some of the finalists

:58:13.:58:15.

of Faith Through A Lens, a photography competition designed

:58:16.:58:17.

to capture the positive effects of faith in diverse communities.

:58:18.:58:19.

From me, Naga Munchetty, and the whole Sunday Morning Live

:58:20.:58:22.

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