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Scotland and Us (Look North Special)

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Scotland is about to decide if it wants to be an independent country.

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We've heard all the arguments north of the border.

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What will Scotland's big decision mean for its neighbours

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Good evening and welcome to a special Look North

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Just two miles from Scotland, but nobody living here has

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a vote in this month's independence referendum.

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People do have plenty of questions about how life on this

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side of the border will change and in the next 40 minutes we will

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Will there be passport checks at Newcastle

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and Carlisle railway stations as one government minister has suggested?

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Will Northeast companies relocate to Scotland to take advantages of

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Might an independent Scotland offer this part of the world a better deal

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We've got a panel of yes and no campaigners

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and an audience from right across Cumbria and the north`east,

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Plus analysis from Dr Angus Armstrong an expert on the dconomic

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consequences of independencd both for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

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You can have your say throughout the show on twitter using

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For centuries Scotland and Dngland were sworn enemies with the borders

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The Dukes of Northumberland were very much in the thick of it

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We arrived in Northumberland in 1309 and spent the next 300 years

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fighting the Scots and trying to keep the borders safe and pdaceful.

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My wife and I live in the c`stle and there are many other castles

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in Northumberland which are a testimony to thd warfare

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These days castles like Alnwick are visitor attractions,

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yet there's still a rivalry between our region and Scotland

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fought not with swords and shields but with jobs and investment.

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Some believe we're at risk of becoming

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the poor relations to our Scottish neighbours who enjoy higher public

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spending as well as the bendfits of free prescriptions, personal

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If Scotland does vote to become fully independent,

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It had got to the stage where going to the bathroom

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and getting back to my chair was getting to be a bit of an adventure,

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I was looking at probably, H would have thought, weeks of life.

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Brian's life was saved by a lung transplant, an operation he

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But as he lives in Northumbdrland close to the border he gets checkups

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He's a cross`border patient who worries things could change with

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We don't want people from our side having to travel any

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If we have independence, oh, we can't do that

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because you're the far side of the river, that's just shocking.

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But the NHS is just one of a series of uncertainties that

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What currency would an independent Scotland use?

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How will the national debt be divided up

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And what would happen at a place like this?

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This bridge across the Tweed divides England and Northumberland

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down there from Scotland just ahead of me over there.

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But if there's a yes vote, to get across this bridge would I

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There has been a lot of scaremongering recently

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about passports, border controls and about having some sort of border

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There are a number of challdnges for the north`east in terms

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Patients who enjoy health provision who live on the English sidd of the

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border clearly that will be an issue that will need to be worked out

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While an independent Scotland would cut taxes for big companies,

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what will it mean for small firms like this Carlisle bakery?

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I will be very disappointed from a business point of vidw

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From a business point of view it could only incre`se

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They haven't given a satisf`ctory answer to the currency issud, which

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I have staff living in Engl`nd and working in Scotland.

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I have staff living in Scotland and working in England.

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So are businesses on our side of the border right to be worried?

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If the Scots lower corporathon tax down to 3%,

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that will have a profound ilpact on businesses in the north`dast

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Air passenger duty, the Scottish government had committed thdmselves

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They want to abolish it within 3`5 years.

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That will have a profound ilpact on Newcastle airport.

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I am your platoon sergeant, number three platoon.

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But north`east playwright Pdter Mortimer thinks an independdnt

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Scotland would write its own success story and we might be left behind.

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Scotland will be unchained if it becomes independent.

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I think it'll be a more pleasant place to live and I

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think we'll become the marginalised part of England.

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I will be quite happy if they move the border down here

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Ah, we may have to have a referendum down here for that

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Let's chew some of those issues over with our panel.

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Christine Grahame, you're an MSP SNP, so we know your

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But they'll pay the price south of the border.

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You'll get your freedom and you're going to come after

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our businesses, after our ahrport, you're going to take it all.

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I think the important thing about reducing corporation tax and getting

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rid of the air travel duty hs that you stimulate the economy and create

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No, there's absolutely nothhng to stop the rest

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If we're successful in boosting our economy instead of just putting

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cuts all over the place which are promised by Conservative and Labour

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if they win the next election, both of them, then we'll stimulate our

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economy, create work for these young people that you

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mentioned who don't get jobs on zero hour contracts, with the minimum

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There's nothing to stop the rest of the UK doing it.

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In fact, it would stimulate the North of England and give it

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Craig Johnston, you're an RMT official and work

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Why are you in favour of Scottish independence?

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Well, I think both sides of the border get a really rum deal from

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In terms of where England m`y lose out to Scotland,

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that's in England's own hands in terms of the legislation and

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Perhaps we should be following some of the things that

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the Scottish Parliament havd done like on prescription charges,

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Those are the sort of things I think politicians need

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to connect with in the commtnities in the North of England

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like they've managed to connect with communities in Scotland.

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Let's turn to the people who don't want to see a break`up of the union.

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John Stevenson, you're the Conservative MP for Carlisle.

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You may be in favour of the union, but you can't say we'll pay any

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price if Scotland became independdnt?

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I think the union has been ` hugely successful, economic organisation

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I think there's huge risks for Scotland going independdnt.

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I think they'll forget they'll then be in competition with Engl`nd and I

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think you may find that economically not a lot of businesses

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on the Scottish side decide they want to relocate.

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A good example is the Royal Bank of Scotland, Standard Life.

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You've also got to remember back in 2008 it was

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the fact that we were part of a United Kingdom, a large enthty, that

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What you're suggesting is good news for your constituents.

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They might have Scottish businesses coming into Carlhsle

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No, I think on the border particularly we lose

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I think the real danger of an independent Scotland hs you

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start to see businesses not investing on either side

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Labour often talk about the North being neglected from Westminster.

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Couldn't Scotland be a powerful partner for the North, an ally?

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You want to get high`speed rail talk to Scotland.

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I think what we've been proposing is a combined authority

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We do want to see further devolution to the area.

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But the one thing that we'rd not calling for is independence.

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I think the one thing that's missed out of all of this argument is

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the problem isn't England and it isn't Scotland.

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What we've got to face as a United Kingdom is globalisation

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The globalisation of the economy which is big

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and we've got to be able to face up to it and we're going to be better

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By splintering off a population of five million versus

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We're better off together to face the problems of the world.

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Christine, let's talk about one of the issues raised in that film.

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Can you reassure Brian, that patient, has he just bdcome

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Do you care about what happdns to him and his health service?

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We've a lot in common with the working folk in England and half

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But it happens already that in the Borders people come over here

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The taxpayers are eventuallx feeding it all in.

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There will be two different sets of taxpayers.

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We're taxpayers as well, but the Scottish Parliament has

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a fixed budget and these decisions and choices that were referred to

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where we've no prescription charges, free personal care for our dlderly.

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If they need their cardigan buttoned or a tin opened for them at home,

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Tuition fees, our young people don't pay ?9,0 0.

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These were choices made in the interest of the Scottish people

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Can you absolutely guaranted nobody will face a border check

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I am trying to take this seriously, right?

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We've a common travel area `t the moment between Eire and the North

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We're part of that, we'll still be a common travel area.

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There won't be borders checks and what a daft idea.

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Put folk in the fields with the sheep?

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People have accused the no side of scaremongering on borders.

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Well, on the borders I suspect you're correct.

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But I think there's a real danger that economically Scotland will

:10:19.:10:21.

deteriorate if they aren't part of the United Kingdom and whll be

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They presuppose they'll havd a very successful economy

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and continue to afford all these luxuries as they see it.

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I think that's a real risk for Scotland.

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But there's a knock`on effect into this part of the world as wdll.

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I think it'll be detrimental for Scotland to be independdnt.

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Excuse me, you called free prescriptions a luxury.

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Whether people get a pink phll in hospital or a pink pill

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at home they shouldn't be p`ying for that pink pill.

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We'll have to leave the deb`te on free prescription charges there

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People travel to Newcastle because they can't get the prescriptions

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We'll have to leave that thdre for the moment.

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Let's hear from the business side of things with the people

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Yes, plenty of local representatives here in the

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audience tonight and that doesn t mean people just from England.

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We've with us two Berwick btsiness owners Gavin Jones and wife Gail.

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What sort of concerns do you have over this

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whole debate of independencd for you as a business person?

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half of our customers are from Scotland. `` we run a retail shop.

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10% of our online customers are from Scotland. Our biggest concern is

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currency. Currently, we accdpt the ?20 Scottish note, worth ?20

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sterling. It cost us nothing more at the bank to exchange it. Wh`t if

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this was worth ?15 or ?25? That will cost us hassle and the only people

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that make anything out of that are the banks. For you as a small

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business, the transaction fdes will be hard to absolve. It will add

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complexity for no additional revenue. We may even get fewer

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customers, cos if there are broader issues, where people have to

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introduce passports, they m`y not come to Berwick to shop. In go to

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Kelso, on the other side of the border. They say that it will all be

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fine and we will be able to have the same sort of trade. That wotld be

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good but do not want to takd that risk. Do they have a Christdl

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Boeljon? Thank you very much indeed. `` crystal ball. Pamela is from

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County Durham, who works at the large`scale employer. What concerns

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do you have? At the moment, you export to 50 countries. We dxport a

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lot. Scotland makes up 1.5% of our business, so it does not make much

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difference to us. But it will be a burden to the economy on thd whole,

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which will have an impact in terms of taxes. Would you be tempted to

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move north of the border, as a big employer? The SNP would likd to have

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a 3% cut in corporate tax, which could be tempting for a big company.

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There are lots of attractivd schemes around Europe. We are very

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passionate about where we are in 20 Durham. But the government here are

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doing a lot of good things `s well. There is a lot of benefit, research

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and development tax relief, and a relatively low tax rate anyway. We

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would not be moving. If I c`n go to Angus Armstrong, Dr Angus Armstrong,

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I want you to tell us your post Good evening. I am the Director of

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macro economic research Abbdy National Institute of econolic and

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social research search, an independent research body. `` social

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research. Tell us, what happens when an international border to trade is

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created? In general terms, the Borders tends to reduce the amount

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of trade between two countrhes. If you look at Canada in the United

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States, the amount of trade between those countries, the statistical

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studies have found that it hs less than predicted, given the dhstance.

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Although there are is no war or physical border, it is things like

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differences in Revelation which over time start to a road. Historically,

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we have found across the world, where you have two different

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political states, there is less cross`border trade of an otherwise.

:14:55.:14:59.

Jeremy Middleton is a north`east businessman. We heard from Pamela a

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moment ago. For companies of her size, this is not a problem because

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it is just exporting to another country. And they can absorb that.

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Some companies will be able to. But I'll worry about jobs more than

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anything else. If there are different tax rates, differdnt

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levels of VAT, that could bd different employment costs `nd a

:15:22.:15:24.

different exchange rates. That creates uncertainty. If you create

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uncertainty, you will have less investment. There is less investment

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now because of uncertainty `nd will be even unless afterwards, because

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of the complexity of this. H think it is worth saying that if, as Alex

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Salmond has suggested, Scotland is wanting to take an aggressive

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competitive position to try to attract businesses, the rest of the

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UK is not going to sit therd and do nothing. We will react becatse those

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of us who live in the North of England are going to say, wd must

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have similar economic powers to be have similar economic powers to be

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able to compensate. We will get onto that later. Apart from the lawyers

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and the politicians, they are the two winners out of this. Th`nk you

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very much, Jeremy. At the moment, the polls suggest that therd will be

:16:10.:16:13.

a no vote in the referendum but if that happens, it does not mdan there

:16:14.:16:17.

will be no change. Far from it. The bull in the north`east may be

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impacted upon even further. Mark Denton has been finding out.

:16:22.:16:27.

My hip and my pelvis is bre`king up. On top of that, I have to p`y this

:16:28.:16:33.

bedroom tax. It costs ?650 ` year. The government calls it a spare room

:16:34.:16:37.

subsidy at critics college to the bedroom tax. Either way, Peter, who

:16:38.:16:42.

is disabled, is paying it. From next year, even if they say no to

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independence, people in Scotland will not have to. I am disgtsted

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about it because it is like one person is paying it and another

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person is not. It will not be a United Kingdom at all because if it

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was united, it would be one price. It must break eight code of human

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rights. `` a code. Goodness knows what he would have made of ht. The

:17:10.:17:15.

great political reformer, E`rl Grey, looking down on Newcastle. He

:17:16.:17:19.

widened the voting franchisd, hitting the first tentative steps

:17:20.:17:22.

towards making Britain more equal. But it seems that some of us are

:17:23.:17:28.

still more equal than others. Public spending in the north`east hs ? ,490

:17:29.:17:34.

per head. It is ?10,152 per head in Scotland. While the spending gap

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remains, a raft of new powers are on their way to Scotland come dven if

:17:41.:17:44.

there is a no vote. Scrapping the bedroom tax is one of the examples,

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but there are others. New t`xes over welfare, new income tax powdrs. In

:17:51.:17:55.

no vote does not mean no ch`nge Recently, all the main political

:17:56.:17:59.

parties have committed themselves to getting Scotland more powers if it

:18:00.:18:05.

is a no vote. Variations in income tax, being able to set land duty,

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stamp duty. One view would be that it is a no vote, devolution max is

:18:11.:18:15.

the best possible option for Scotland. Looking at it frol another

:18:16.:18:22.

perspective, it might be thd worst option for the north`east and

:18:23.:18:26.

Cumbria. On top of that, Scotland also has lower unemployment than the

:18:27.:18:29.

north`east. But this leading businessmen does not think we are

:18:30.:18:33.

getting a raw deal. Bernie Shepherd is going to transform 160 acres of

:18:34.:18:38.

land near Dunfermline into houses and shops, one of many cross`border

:18:39.:18:42.

projects for his firm going ahead regardless of the referendul. We

:18:43.:18:46.

will still be doing business with them and still looking to bd friends

:18:47.:18:53.

with Scotland. We are near Ddinburgh and lock nut in, put it that way. ``

:18:54.:19:01.

near Edinburgh and London. The Duke of Northumberland surveys is a

:19:02.:19:04.

states, including part of Scotland. But he does not seed two undqual

:19:05.:19:11.

places but one area with a shared history. Personally, I'd cross the

:19:12.:19:14.

border practically everyday from one part of the estate to anothdr. And I

:19:15.:19:21.

see no difference between somebody living on one side and the other. I

:19:22.:19:24.

think it is a remarkably integrated area. But any form of bound`ry

:19:25.:19:30.

creates difficulty. I think it has worked pretty well for a long time.

:19:31.:19:37.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it But even if there is a no vote, some

:19:38.:19:41.

fear that the region has a growing problem that simply will not go

:19:42.:19:45.

away. The economic gap that we Scotland and us. The gap has to be

:19:46.:19:51.

narrowed. `` between Scotland and us. The powers that Scotland make

:19:52.:19:57.

have to be replicated in thd North of England because there is a very

:19:58.:20:00.

serious risk that the north`east and Cumbria would get left behind. Let's

:20:01.:20:06.

put this to the panel. Phil Wilson, the political parties are f`lling

:20:07.:20:11.

over themselves. The balancd is just going to get worse between these

:20:12.:20:16.

North of England and Scotland. It could possibly happen. We h`ve

:20:17.:20:19.

spoken about air passenger duty and corporation tax. If you are going to

:20:20.:20:26.

cut taxes, how do you pay for welfare benefits? But it wotld be

:20:27.:20:31.

nice to have the freedom to do it. Scotland will get these freddoms. A

:20:32.:20:35.

sickly, what I was disappointed with was when the redevelopment `gency

:20:36.:20:39.

benefit. I do not want to dwell on benefit. I do not want to dwell on

:20:40.:20:43.

that, I want to dwell on thd future. Will accept that more powers are

:20:44.:20:47.

coming to Scotland but thosd powers are not coming here. That's right. I

:20:48.:20:55.

have raised the idea around variations regionally in passenger

:20:56.:20:59.

duty. It does not just affect Newcastle airport, but Durh`m

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airport as well. These are things we should be looking at. Whethdr you

:21:06.:21:08.

need independence to achievd it I do not think so. Can we call it the

:21:09.:21:13.

UK any more when there are such bass differences? You cannot pay certain

:21:14.:21:16.

taxes north of the border and you get free prescriptions, is ht a UK?

:21:17.:21:21.

I think the key question is, do you believe in devolution. I've

:21:22.:21:26.

fundamentally believe in devolution, so yes, further powers to Scotland,

:21:27.:21:30.

I am more than happy with that. However, I think the time h`s come

:21:31.:21:34.

where England has two also look at devolution. I think there is a

:21:35.:21:37.

substantial deficit they ard and believe that both parties in

:21:38.:21:41.

parliament have to start looking at the counties and cities of Dngland

:21:42.:21:45.

and fiscal devolution to thdm. You do not disagree with that, Craig

:21:46.:21:50.

Johnson. How does an independent Scotland helped you achieve that? It

:21:51.:21:54.

was interesting point made the regional development agencids. I

:21:55.:21:59.

think that we need a devolvdd government for the North of England

:22:00.:22:02.

is to balance out what has happened north of the border. To givd us a

:22:03.:22:07.

priority, also, instead of London and the south`east. When we talk

:22:08.:22:11.

about the United Kingdom, wd need strategic investment and pl`nning in

:22:12.:22:13.

this area and we have not got it because we do not have the regional

:22:14.:22:19.

assembly. Christian Graham, the Northern tax players seem to get a

:22:20.:22:24.

raw deal. Some people might say good riddance to Scotland. Hn the

:22:25.:22:28.

last 30 years, Scotland has contributed more to the UK budget

:22:29.:22:32.

and we have had back, withott oil revenue. Let me deal with their stop

:22:33.:22:35.

Mike but we are getting less per head! But the revolution thhng is

:22:36.:22:40.

news to me. Up in Scotland, there is only one question on the ballot

:22:41.:22:44.

paper. Should Scotland be an independent country? Devolution is

:22:45.:22:47.

not on the ballot paper bec`use David Cameron did not want ht on

:22:48.:22:51.

there. What I say to the people in the North of England, but wdre of

:22:52.:22:58.

false promises. `` be wary of false promises. It is not on the ballot

:22:59.:23:06.

paper, devolution. Excuse md. And it was not on the ballot paper in the

:23:07.:23:11.

North of England. In 1979, on the eve of the poll for a Scotthsh

:23:12.:23:15.

we will discuss more of these issues we will discuss more of these issues

:23:16.:23:20.

in a moment. Strong views on whether we are getting a fair deal. But

:23:21.:23:23.

people will notice the diffdrences most of all on the border. @nd there

:23:24.:23:31.

are plenty of those people hn the audience.

:23:32.:23:33.

I think it is a good point to ask for a show of hands from evdrybody

:23:34.:23:36.

here. Those of us who live hn England, do you feel aggrieved or

:23:37.:23:42.

disadvantaged compared to your Scottish neighbours? Show your hands

:23:43.:23:51.

if you feel that way. OK. And if anybody has a personal experience,

:23:52.:23:54.

perhaps of the tuition fee situation, so care, prescription

:23:55.:24:02.

charges? `` personal care. Xes, the girl on the side. I am from Wales

:24:03.:24:06.

and there should be going to university next year. Bandah will

:24:07.:24:12.

have to pay ?9,000 more than those that live two miles away. I have

:24:13.:24:16.

friends that go to the Acaddmy, that do not have to pay that. And they

:24:17.:24:22.

will not get in debt becausd of where they live. It is

:24:23.:24:26.

geographically ridiculous. Ht is one issue affecting the younger part of

:24:27.:24:30.

our audience. Anybody here who feels strongly about ascription charges? I

:24:31.:24:36.

have experienced a difference in attitudes towards people who used to

:24:37.:24:43.

go across the border to the General Hospital from Berwick. It h`s become

:24:44.:24:46.

more difficult to access those facilities. Especially dent`l care,

:24:47.:24:53.

which is poorly served in Bdrwick. If there is a border crossing, I

:24:54.:24:58.

think it would be worse than it is now. Thank you for those ophnions.

:24:59.:25:04.

Turning to Alexis, the headteacher of Berwick Academy. Picking up on a

:25:05.:25:08.

previous point, you are in `n awkward position because yotr pupils

:25:09.:25:11.

come from both sides of the border. You have to advise them on which

:25:12.:25:15.

university to go to. Maybe ht is difficult for you, because some will

:25:16.:25:19.

come out with debt and others will not. We do not have a huge number of

:25:20.:25:23.

students who come across thd border, about 5%. It is probably sililar in

:25:24.:25:28.

the other direction. A lot of our catchment is to the south. But what

:25:29.:25:33.

was noticeable this year, when students were applying for

:25:34.:25:38.

university, actually, it was harder for our Scottish students to find a

:25:39.:25:41.

place at a Scottish univershty because there were limited numbers

:25:42.:25:48.

for Scottish tunes. So when we came to the clearing system, one of the

:25:49.:25:49.

things that we picked up quhte things that we picked up quhte

:25:50.:25:54.

quickly was that the courses were closed for clearing for Scottish

:25:55.:25:58.

tunes but Scottish universities were still accepting English tunds. ``

:25:59.:26:06.

Scottish students. And they are accepting English tunes on lower

:26:07.:26:11.

grades. You can see that thdre is an economic reason why the Scottish

:26:12.:26:13.

universities are keen to have fee`paying students. Fee`paxing

:26:14.:26:18.

students from England are ctrrently subsidising the education sxstem

:26:19.:26:23.

that is free to Scottish sttdents. Whether that will continue hn a free

:26:24.:26:29.

Scotland only remains to be seen. One of many questions. Phil Johnson

:26:30.:26:34.

is the editor of the Berwick Advertiser. You have a parthcular

:26:35.:26:36.

feel for the strength of fedling in the town. I think there is `

:26:37.:26:43.

perception in Berwick at thd moment that the town gets a raw de`l. I am

:26:44.:26:48.

not so sure that that is because we are so close to Scotland. I think it

:26:49.:26:53.

is more to do with the powers that we have in Northumberland at the

:26:54.:26:56.

moment. Berwick had its own Borough Council until five years ago and

:26:57.:27:01.

that has now moved down to Northumberland. A lot of thd

:27:02.:27:03.

decisions made which affect Berwick were made down in Morpeth, `nd there

:27:04.:27:09.

is a feeling in Berwick that we get a raw deal as a result. APPLAUSE.

:27:10.:27:18.

If I can bring in Joe Perry from the Green Party. She is a Cumbrhan ``

:27:19.:27:24.

she has a Cumbrian perspecthve. You are a fan of the way that Scotland

:27:25.:27:31.

hands handles many things two yes. Absolutely. They have a progressive

:27:32.:27:36.

policy on simple things likd banning fluoride from the water and a good

:27:37.:27:38.

dental health care system for children. Not wanting to spdnd money

:27:39.:27:50.

on Trident, they have a mord peaceable foreign policy, not that

:27:51.:27:54.

they are in charge, but thex have a more peaceable perspective. And can

:27:55.:28:00.

see many reasons why people in Cumbria and in the northern parts of

:28:01.:28:03.

Northumberland would want of the border moved further south hf

:28:04.:28:09.

Scotland get more powers. The issue is that we are very badly treated by

:28:10.:28:15.

the government in London. Wd are. And next door to you, we have a

:28:16.:28:19.

local businessman. Brian, if Scotland is doing things so well,

:28:20.:28:25.

getting things right, do yot think that the border should be moved

:28:26.:28:28.

south? Would you like to be included in Scotland? It is a very dhfficult

:28:29.:28:33.

question because I have dond a bit of research from my customers, and I

:28:34.:28:37.

find that people would like to be in Scotland if it was going to stay in

:28:38.:28:40.

the UK, and if it becomes independent, they would rather stay

:28:41.:28:44.

in Berwick. With all of the publicity that Berwick has had

:28:45.:28:48.

would like to carry that on and try would like to carry that on and try

:28:49.:28:52.

to get Berwick on the map, because we have been ignored by Westminster.

:28:53.:28:57.

I had an interview recently with Alan Beith and asked him wh`t he had

:28:58.:29:00.

done with the town since he has been in power, and he struggles to

:29:01.:29:04.

actually come up with anythhng. I feel that we are out on a lhmb. That

:29:05.:29:11.

is a good local voice. I want to bring Dr Angus Armstrong in again.

:29:12.:29:14.

You have looked at the economic side of things. Too many English people,

:29:15.:29:19.

it seems that Scotland has got it good. Can they afford to deliver on

:29:20.:29:24.

these benefits? Scotland has had higher public spending than the rest

:29:25.:29:29.

of the UK for many years so they have had their advantage. The big

:29:30.:29:32.

question is if it votes yes, then it is going to have to balance its own

:29:33.:29:38.

books. Most independent resdarchers, the IFS, fiscal policy Scotland

:29:39.:29:43.

they estimated that Scotland will be running a deficit, so spendhng more

:29:44.:29:51.

than the tax take, by the end of independence. They have to balance

:29:52.:29:55.

the books, so the interesting questions have yet to be answered.

:29:56.:29:58.

And think we need to that to the SNP.

:29:59.:30:01.

Christine Grahame, the land of milk and honey at the moment, but once

:30:02.:30:05.

independence comes, it will not be so good. Who said we abolished the

:30:06.:30:09.

bedroom tax? It has not been abolished. We did not have the power

:30:10.:30:13.

to do it but the Scottish government set up a fund to pay over to the

:30:14.:30:17.

local authorities of people would not have to keep their housds. But

:30:18.:30:24.

that man says that you would not be able to afford it. Scotland can

:30:25.:30:28.

afford it, even with the violent gas. Lagasse, ?20 billion is

:30:29.:30:35.

predicted over the next 20 xears. That is a lot sloshing around. I

:30:36.:30:39.

know there is a lot of disptte. There is not. Even Sir Ian Wood in

:30:40.:30:44.

2012 said that there was ?26 billion. He said he was not being

:30:45.:30:46.

political. Let's leave it there So, the Scottish Parliament looks

:30:47.:30:50.

as if it'll get more power inevitably, regardless

:30:51.:30:53.

of the results of the referdndum. You might see that

:30:54.:30:54.

as an opportunity, But is it time

:30:55.:30:57.

for the north`east and Cumbria to In 2004, the north`east had

:30:58.:31:01.

its own referendum. It was offered a regional

:31:02.:31:05.

assembly by John Prescott. The voters told him

:31:06.:31:07.

where to get off. But the man who chaired

:31:08.:31:09.

the yes campaign believes the time is right for regional government

:31:10.:31:14.

and the need is even strongdr now. I think in a sense many

:31:15.:31:17.

of the issues the referendul on a north`east assembly was

:31:18.:31:20.

intended to address are still here. The north`east is a region with

:31:21.:31:23.

a relatively weak voice It's still a region with social

:31:24.:31:26.

and economic conditions which are So I think that ten years

:31:27.:31:32.

on we're no further forward in terms In some key respects we've

:31:33.:31:40.

probably taken steps backwards. That seems worrying,

:31:41.:31:44.

a step backward. Let's go to Jeremy Middleton,

:31:45.:31:46.

north`east businessman. Was it a mistake ten years `go that

:31:47.:31:49.

we rejected a regional asselbly No, I think the mistake was to

:31:50.:31:55.

focus on the politics of it. The vast majority

:31:56.:31:59.

of people aren't interested in new, The issue is what the infludnce

:32:00.:32:01.

of the north`east is Do we have enough investment

:32:02.:32:09.

in our infrastructure? Are we in a position to attract

:32:10.:32:15.

inward investors and so on? I hope Scotland stays in thd

:32:16.:32:18.

United Kingdom. I think we need to work with

:32:19.:32:24.

Scotland so that together we're trying to

:32:25.:32:26.

attract business into the north`east What we don't want to do is start

:32:27.:32:29.

competing with each other and creating barriers to tr`de

:32:30.:32:34.

because, frankly, There's no demand from the people

:32:35.:32:36.

of the north`east for it. Hilton Dawson, the North East Party,

:32:37.:32:41.

you'd be in favour But do people want new

:32:42.:32:44.

political systems? We've talked for a while about

:32:45.:32:49.

how good things are in Scotland The reasons why things are better in

:32:50.:32:53.

Scotland, why they have mord money, why they have better policids,

:32:54.:32:57.

is because of politics, so let's What we do need in this part

:32:58.:33:02.

of the world is equality, we need investment in public

:33:03.:33:09.

services, we need investment to bring new businesses, new jobs here,

:33:10.:33:12.

and we need democracy. However, in favour of a reghonal

:33:13.:33:17.

assembly 78% didn't want it. And about that same proporthon

:33:18.:33:25.

in Wales in 1979 said exactly 18 years later the people of Wales

:33:26.:33:27.

changed their minds. It's perfectly open

:33:28.:33:33.

for the people in the north`east of England to change their linds,

:33:34.:33:36.

particularly hearing the arguments we've had today and seeing

:33:37.:33:40.

the example of what devoluthon has There's nobody here arguing

:33:41.:33:43.

for less devolution. We need to hear from Jill Pdrry

:33:44.:33:50.

because from the Cumbrian point You could have the base

:33:51.:33:53.

in Newcastle, Liverpool, who knows? Absolutely, wherever the base is

:33:54.:34:01.

it's going to be in a big chty and But I think the thing

:34:02.:34:04.

a regional government of sole kind would do, both the politici`ns

:34:05.:34:09.

on the no side of the debatd were talking about globalisation,

:34:10.:34:12.

building a strong global economy. Globalisation doesn't help

:34:13.:34:16.

the ordinary person. What the ordinary people benefit

:34:17.:34:19.

from is strong local economhes. With local businesses,

:34:20.:34:25.

local jobs and local investlent That's what we could have if we had

:34:26.:34:30.

a regional government electdd by proportional representathon

:34:31.:34:34.

fighting for local people. Angus Armstrong,

:34:35.:34:38.

obviously the call for regional government is getting louder because

:34:39.:34:40.

of this whole Scottish debate. Is it realistic that we

:34:41.:34:43.

can expect more powers? I think the whole Scottish debate

:34:44.:34:48.

has opened up this question. For the last 300 years

:34:49.:34:50.

the UK has been the most centralised Scotland has spending which is

:34:51.:34:55.

devolved, but not the incomd side. It doesn't raise its own taxes,

:34:56.:35:02.

or not very much. For the rest

:35:03.:35:05.

of the UK the big question hs can you have true devolution if Scotland

:35:06.:35:07.

says no without actually having Scotland is only 10% of the

:35:08.:35:10.

United Kingdom. You need to deal with

:35:11.:35:19.

the other 90% and I think what we're hearing tonight is much mord

:35:20.:35:22.

of an expression that there's a Let's hear from our yes

:35:23.:35:24.

and no campaigners on the p`nel Craig Johnston, I know you're

:35:25.:35:29.

a big fan of the idea of regional That's not going to make

:35:30.:35:32.

any difference, is it? I think what they want are

:35:33.:35:37.

politicians who are going I think the problem that we have,

:35:38.:35:39.

I hope Scotland vote yes, they take the opportunity to take control

:35:40.:35:46.

of their own affairs, but whatever happens on the 18th of Septdmber

:35:47.:35:50.

the reality of it is the North of England, the North East, North West,

:35:51.:35:56.

Yorkshire as well, is to cole together and start arguing

:35:57.:36:00.

for proper, devolved, regional government, democratically dlected

:36:01.:36:02.

with real powers, not the phg in a poke assembly that was offered to us

:36:03.:36:05.

by John Prescott in the north`east. John Stevenson, you're not

:36:06.:36:10.

in favour of regional government but if you dribble a few powers to

:36:11.:36:12.

local councils, all these local enterprise partnerships, th`t's not

:36:13.:36:15.

going to make the differencd to I'm for fundamental reform

:36:16.:36:18.

in England in local governmdnt. For example in Cumbria we h`ve seven

:36:19.:36:23.

councils, 400 councillors But Cumbria County Council hsn't

:36:24.:36:25.

going to be able to compete with the No, but you can have devolution

:36:26.:36:32.

in England in a different w`y. You've got to see cities

:36:33.:36:36.

and counties in England, so the big cities will get certain

:36:37.:36:38.

powers because they've cert`in issues and requirements, and

:36:39.:36:41.

the counties in a similar f`shion. I sit on the local government select

:36:42.:36:43.

committee and we've been looking You've not only got to devolve

:36:44.:36:46.

spending powers, you've also got I think it's one

:36:47.:36:50.

of the big problems with thd present Scottish Parliamentary systdm in

:36:51.:36:55.

that they've got to have both the tax`raising powers as well `s the

:36:56.:36:58.

spending powers and align the two. You're also

:36:59.:37:01.

against regional government, but It could be, but you could `rgue it

:37:02.:37:04.

was a democratic deficit, btt the big thing for people out there

:37:05.:37:12.

who have to go to work everx day is You can't wish away globalisation

:37:13.:37:16.

and I think the 35,000 people in the north`east who work for Nissan

:37:17.:37:21.

would say that globalisation does The hundreds and thousands of people

:37:22.:37:23.

who are going to work for Hhtachi on my patch would say there ard some

:37:24.:37:29.

good things about globalisation Nobody is wishing that away,

:37:30.:37:32.

but we need structures. The one thing that happened in that

:37:33.:37:38.

referendum about ten years `go when they voted against the regional

:37:39.:37:41.

assembly, they voted for a tnity Hitachi, the big economic

:37:42.:37:44.

development we've got them now speaking up for the whole of County

:37:45.:37:53.

Durham, it has done a great deal. We can't even get a station

:37:54.:37:58.

at Gilsland. That's the reality

:37:59.:38:00.

of what we're looking at. No`one is batting for the North

:38:01.:38:02.

of England. People believe there's a deficit

:38:03.:38:06.

here and what we need is solebody Christine Grahame, if you gdt

:38:07.:38:09.

your wish, by the end of thd month you could be on the way to becoming

:38:10.:38:16.

a foreigner in this country. I hope not, I am going to

:38:17.:38:20.

my son's wedding four days before What will be your parting mdssage

:38:21.:38:23.

to the North of England? I think independence, whatever

:38:24.:38:28.

happens, will be the liberation It's to look at how London`centric

:38:29.:38:32.

policies penalise everybody the further they are away

:38:33.:38:39.

from that centre whether it's interest rates, overheated house

:38:40.:38:42.

prices, jobs, whatever it is. We've so much

:38:43.:38:48.

in common with the North of England As you'll find out, you can't

:38:49.:38:51.

always pay for these things. Well,

:38:52.:38:58.

you don't need to have Triddnt for a start, spend billions on Trhdent and

:38:59.:39:01.

go into illegal wars in Irap and cause a bigger mess in international

:39:02.:39:04.

affairs than you ever did bdfore. Look at the way money has

:39:05.:39:07.

been spent and it could havd That's it from us,

:39:08.:39:10.

but don't forget you can continue There will be more

:39:11.:39:16.

on this whole debate on BBC local I think it's clear none of ts knows

:39:17.:39:23.

how the referendum is going to go. As we've heard tonight whichever

:39:24.:39:32.

way, it's going to have a big impact on us here in the

:39:33.:39:34.

North East and Cumbria. From Richard and myself

:39:35.:39:38.

and everybody here at the M`ltings in Berwick,

:39:39.:39:41.

thanks for watching and good night.

:39:42.:39:46.

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