Nomia Iqbal Asian Network's Big Debate

brought by people conceived at a fertility clinic. -- Leo Varadkar.

Now on BBC News, Asian Network's Big Election Debate.

Welcome to the Asian Network's Big Election Debate. We are on the Asian

network, and the BBC News Channel. I'm Nomia Iqbal, here in the

splendid alga concert hall at the University of Birmingham, and on

stage here in the concert hall. With me is our audience, people from all

different backgrounds, different political allegiances, and with just

one week to go before the big vote, they have a lot of questions about a

wide range of issues. They will be putting those questions to our panel

of guests from different political parties. With us today is Shailesh

Vara from the Conservatives, Khalid Masood mood from Labour, Baroness

Sheehan from the Liberal Democrats, Bob -- Bob Dhillon from Ukip, and

Leanne Wood from Plaid Cymru. Following the horrific terror attack

in Manchester last week, campaigning for the election had been suspended.

Of course it has now resumed. But the events of Manchester are still

very much on people's minds. I was in the city reporting and I am from

Manchester. There were a lot of questions being asked in the

aftermath. Let's begin the debate today with talking about what

happened in Manchester, looking at some of the issues that came from

it. Let's go to our first question. In light of the recent atrocities

committed in Manchester, should Muslims do more to condemn terrorism

within their communities? Shailesh Vara from the Conservatives? Let me

express my deepest sympathies and condolences for the family and

friends of those who tragically lost their lives in what was basically a

very wicked and evil act. It has been condemned by the whole world.

As far as community engagement has been concerned, of course. There

ought to be engagement by every citizen in the UK. But given that

many of the people who are engaging in this activity come from the a

political community, it is right everyone is vigilant. It may mean if

you are suspicious of an individual, reporting them to the police. Of

course there will be some reluctance on the part of people to report

individuals that they know, love and care about to police, but what I

would say to those individuals is to just look at the pain and anguish

that has been caused to all of the families and friends of... Because

of those innocent lives that were taken away. It might just be the

case that if someone is reported, we might just be stopping future

tragedies such as that. So, you think the responsibility is for

everybody, but specifically the Muslim community? I think that given

the background of many of the people who engage in terrorist activities

is from the Muslim community and certainly I would ask that the

Muslim community is vigilant. That is not to say that it is the

exclusive responsibility of the Muslim community, because many

individuals go to colleges and work, and mixing everyday society. They

are mixing with mainstream society. All of us have a responsibility. I

will come back to the rest of the panel but I want to ask you, do you

think that it is the slim's responsibility to condemn terrorism?

-- Muslims. I think it is everyone's responsibility to condemn terrorism

but there is clearly a problem within some aspects, a very small

minority, of the Muslim community that I do not think the solution is

to ignore it and say that it just is not there, because a significant

portion, if not a majority of terror attacks we see, are committed by

those supporting these ideologies, essentially. Bob Dhillon, Ukip? My

sympathies again go to the people of Manchester. We have to go back to

the 1970s, when we look at British policy which has gone wrong.

Basically, what we have done is funded these terrorist groups in the

1970s and 1980s to overthrow Russian regimes in Afghanistan and various

other Middle East countries. That is where the policy started. Then, what

we did secondly, was the secret services were qualified people who

were replaced by cronies, by Tony Blair, who put cronies in to get the

result that he wanted for the Iraq war, with no plan B. When you

destroy a country, which Iraq was quite a nice country from when I

visited it to what it is now, and have no plan B, and when people see

that, they have this hate in them. You are linking terrorism to past

behaviours? Yes. Whatever the issues are, we cannot blame any single

policy young people's lives, people who have wanted to go out to enjoy

their evening and barbarically killed those very young people in

the way that they have done. Back to the original question, the issue is

that a vast majority of the Muslim community condemns it out right, and

I did an article at the weekend in a newspaper saying what the question

said, that is small minority of people need to come forward and be

part of the whole solution, and not continue to be the problem. The

Muslim community has a responsibility because that is what

the perception is. These people are from the Muslim community, so we

have to deal with that. Of course it is a responsibility for all of us to

deal with that. It affects all of us in our daily lives but it is

important that we cooperate with authorities and explain that when we

hear something, as trivial as you may think it is, it is best to pass

it to authorities. Your party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, linked

foreign policy with what happens? He hasn't. He has. He has not linked

it, people keep getting this wrong. He said if we are called upon on the

international arena in such a way, we should think about it, as we did

in Syria. There was a vote, the Labour Party stood against and did

not vote for it. It is a key step change in relation to how we move it

forward. We need to look at those issues, and there can be no

correlation with people acting deliberately, barbarically, to take

people's lives in this country. It cannot be linked in that way.

Leanne? I am interested in understanding what it is that

motivates people to carry out such barbaric and callous acts,

especially against young children. I think the target audience here was

particularly... It makes it a particularly barbaric act. I used to

work as a probation officer, and what they do is try and understand

the root causes of people's behaviour. I think while it is the

responsibility of every single citizen to be vigilant and to take

action, there are things that the Muslim community can help with here.

You mentioned ideology, and I think that there is a real issue about

challenging ideology and really understanding the ideology driving

this, and being able to argue and counter it. I am interested to know

if some of you think, actually, Muslims should not bear the

responsibility. They are always being asked to condemn these attacks

and it isn't fair. Can we bring the microphone to this gentleman? The

idea that nobody is saying that these attacks are OK, no such

attacks are OK but the idea of the Muslim community should be guilty by

association is fundamentally problematic. Ideologies are

dangerous. Nobody is saying that but it is how people feel, right?

Ideologies are dangerous across-the-board and they need to be

challenged across the board. The community is challenging, we need

serious questions about cuts when the Muslim community was the one

reporting Salman Abedi a multiple number of times. We need a real

discussion about what is happening here and what is happening with

intelligence, and the idea that went something like this is perpetuated

by someone specifically in a community that the entire community

is to blame but when Jo Cox was murdered, there was no blame on the

community, it was "Just some guy". But we know that there are dangers

and to what happened in Preston the other day, with white supremacist

ideology. It is murderous. We need to talk about what we all do rather

than saying some of us are guilty by association, which we are not.

Baroness Sheehan? Let me express my deepest sympathy for the families

and loved ones of the 22 people who were brutally murdered. Can I pay

tribute to the emergency services who came forward so fantastically

for us, and the NHS which was exemplary and illustrates, if it

needed illustrating, how important that is to us. Mancunians themselves

stood shoulder to shoulder and refused to be divided by this act of

atrocity. That is really to be welcomed. As a Muslim, I do not

identify with that version of Islam, which is perverted. For a long time,

Muslims like myself had been saying to the government, please do

something to tackle the infiltration of this pernicious brand of Islam

that is coming to us in our country, and other countries around the

world, which is being exported by Saudi Arabia. The Wahab Riaz strain,

which is allowed to preach in our mosques here, it needs to be tackled

and I am ashamed we still called the Saudi regime friends and sell arms

to them -- wahhabism. Those arms are used by the Saudis to kill civilians

in Yemen, and we allow that to happen. I think this is part and

parcel of the same issue and the same problem. It must be tackled at

the roots. Let me pick up on that point, I heard a lot in Manchester

about the double standard of the government when it came to Saudi

Arabia. Clearly there are conversations that go on between

governments... But it is about stopping the sale of arms... Can I

just say... It isn't as simple as that. There is a huge amount of

engagement with countries, and a huge amount of trade, a huge amount

of dialogue. A huge amount of travel between people, back and forth. In a

civilised world, we often try to talk to people, rather than take

brutal action. On the whole, that civilised action of dialogue does...

We see the world very differently. I have a couple of people with

questions... Can I go to the lady at the back burst? What we are saying

is trade is more important to us than our morals? -- feedback first.

Let me finish, I need to say this. Saudi Arabia are committing human

rights atrocities, it is agreed by the UN, some of the things that they

are guilty of, it is awful some of the things that they do but we trade

with these people and have a convex relationship with them. Why can we

not bring that into the conversation, -- complex. Seeing as

they are an enormous trade partner? The Baroness mentioned it is mainly

based on arms, is that our business? What our country wants to be known

as? The arms country? Let's become back to that. I am not saying that

trade trumps human rights, whatever. If you look at international figures

of the number of countries where they have questionable human rights,

you would be surprised at the number of countries. It is not just Saudi

Arabia that may be on any list, there are a lot of countries where

ordinarily people go there and go on holidays too. We need to take

uniform action and be consistent in the action we take, rather than

picking on one country which, for various reasons, may be higher in

the media profile than others. Before we go further, we were due to

have the SNP here but they released a statement. Due to circumstances

beyond his control, their representative was unable to attend

despite looking forward to taking part in the debate. Just that

statement, to let you know, if you are wondering why the SNP are not

he. Let's pick up on that. -- why the SNP are not here. Khalid

Mahmood, keep it brief? The first question about the far right and

Islamic terrorists. That does not blame any community, there are

individuals that we need to resolve, it does not blame the whole of the

Muslim community or indigenous community in terms of supremacists.

It is not tit-for-tat, and when we get away from that kind of thing,

the supremacists are doing this, it is OK to do that... None of it is

OK, that needs to be clear. In terms of arms and human rights, and what

we do, we need to seriously look at this. We will look at whether we

want to continue with the industry we have. America signed a $135

billion deal with Saudi Arabia. That is exactly what I am saying. There

are a number of countries that in terms of what they are doing has a

worse record. Look at China. Lets just... Let's just wind up here. I'm

also pointing out India... We have a lot of people to get through. In

Punjab... I want to get back... Come on... I want to bring up police

cuts. Many have mentioned this. This was something that the Conservative

government were accused of, following the aftermath of the

Manchester bombings. Your party cut the number of police, 20,000 in

England and Wales. If there were more police on the streets, this

wouldn't have happened? First of all, let me say there are two

issues. As far as general policing is concerned, crime is down by one

third. Crime is down by one third, notwithstanding... But violent

crime... Notwithstanding that we have had police cuts. This tells you

that it is more than just numbers and bodies on the streets. For

example... You can have a situation, I have been to these centres, where

you have a couple of police officers sat in a room, watching 20 or 30

video screens because they had CCTV cameras. They can look to see where

there are difficulties and direct police cars to those areas of

difficulty, rather than having 30 times two police officers sat there

when there isn't much activity. We need to look at how policing is

done. I don't know where you have been living or sleeping with crime

being cut and going down, I can show you and you can talk to me after, it

hasn't. That is in La La Land. Independent analysis on these

figures... Carjackings and everything... It is all thrown in,

mad. You are sleeping somewhat. This is real, Street talk. -- it is all

thrown in, madam. I have one of the largest electorates in the country.

People I have represented in the last 12 years, it is one of the

largest electorates in mainland Britain, I have my ear to the ground

and I can tell you, I speak to police on a regular basis... It is

not where I am living. We will have two agree to disagree. Yet, the

individuation is there whenever you want to come around. And to you too.

Back to your question? With hate crime on the list, what are they

doing to tackle the issue? Bob Dhillon, what will you do? What

would Ukip do? With hate crime on the rise. We have seen some

instances following what happened in Manchester. Mosques being bombed.

Ukip are fuelling it. They are fuelling it. APPLAUSE

I don't believe so... Paul Nuttall came out the next day saying that he

was right about that? His manifesto says that he wants to ban the

Bercow. To stop radicalisation, they need to overcome hate crime --

burqa. I want to make sure that police crackdown on any hate in any

community. Did you agree with your party's policy of banning the burqa?

In today's modern society, covering the face is not required. I

disagree. Do you really have the right to tell people what to wear?

What to tell women to wear? I know there is a security issue but we

live in a democracy, or we try to. I feel that politicians are constantly

coming to young people and the generation at election time. Where

the hell are you for the rest of the year? You come to us at election

time when you want our votes. People like us, the undecided voters, you

say... This is what we will do for young people... We throw millions of

pounds into mental health services, we throw billions of pounds into the

NHS. Why do we not see that money in practice, where is it on the ground?

On that point you make about the burqa. Leanne Wood's point about it

fuelling hate. Do you agree? Completely. I have known young women

to be walking down the road with headscarves, and they've had their

headscarves ripped off them. 16-year-olds. That is assault. Yes,

and a lot of the time people get away with it. These young women are

scared to leave their houses and do everyday normal things, and it is

unacceptable how people get away with this. I am from Kent. I've been

walking down the road and people have accused me... Have you got a

bomb in your bag? No. I am having to justify myself to you, as a young

Muslim. I had to show my bag and say actually, I have curry in my bag. Do

I need to show you that I have food in my bag? What kind of world do we

live in? The stories are not rare, whose fault is it? I think some of

the language that we have been hearing that the referendum campaign

is really fuelling this. Some of the images that the campaign, I know

there are different versions of the league campaign, but the one led by

my Ukip person here on the left, I'm not quite able to call him a

colleague, but the one led by his leader, Nigel Farage, when he stood

in front of that revolting poster of desperate Syrian refugees saying,

what was it? "Breaking Point". Those images leave a lasting impact and

they fuel some of the hate crime that we see. One week after the

referendum... Those posters were used in Germany in the 1930s. If you

look at the two posters side-by-side they are carbon copies. The

evidence, the week after the campaign, recorded hate crime went

up 43%. It says it all. Can I bring in Shailesh Vara? When we talk about

these issues, it needs to be done so sensibly. What we say has

consequences. I voted to remain in the referendum campaign that some of

the language used could have been worded differently. And spoken in a

more sensitive matter. There was a rise in hate crime and as a society,

we need to deal with it. The police forces dealt with them the best they

could and it was wonderful to see the British community rally round as

well. I also remember at the time that while there was an increase in

hate crime, there were millions of people throughout the country who

took the view and said actually, I do not like this. In small

communities all over the place they were giving comfort to those

receiving hate mail through their letterboxes and so on. It was a very

sad and regrettable incident in terms of hate crime and it

continues, but I am pleased to say the strength of this country is that

the majority of people are fair-minded and decent. But that

does not help if you are a Muslim attacked in the street? I'm not

saying that hate crime does not exist, it does. It is growing. I

think, Khalid Mahmood, if Jeremy Corbyn becomes Prime Minister, what

is he planning to do to tackle this kind of hate crime? He is planning

to introduce 10,000 more police onto the streets of our communities. In

terms of having police officers... As an example, I would prefer PCSOs

on the ground. I have a fantastic PCSO in my community, Rob, he is

fantastic. He goes to people's houses and sees what is going on.

Let's not be reacting but be proactive in relation to police.

Those cuts have been made, Jeremy Corbyn is going to increase the

police forces to do that. Other comments on crime, it is going up.

If you look at proper crime figures, in terms of burglary, personal

safety, knife crime... It has gone up tremendously because we do not

have those people. I live in my constituency, in my street. We see

what is going on. I have people from my constituency with issues in

relation to this and I speak to the local people every day. That is what

is going on. They cannot put up with it. You have an incident and you

waited a few hours before police turn up as they don't have

resources. We need police back on the streets, not looking at some

monitors, or doing an IT job. That is someone else's job. The police

need to gain intelligence on the ground to be proactive. One more

question, I believe? Bedene? -- . When will the British electorate

be ready to vote for an Asian Prime Minister? We thought we would end

with a light question! I think the question is simple here. When will

the political parties been a -- be in a position to elect a leader who

can then be Prime Minister? We don't operate an American system. Until we

get the political parties to elect someone as a leader, then they

become Prime Minister which is the way forward. The Liberal Democrats,

as you know, have nine MPs. Sadly, we lost quite a lot in the previous

parliament. Or black. No, we do not have seats like Labour and the

Conservatives where you can parachute in Asian candidates, I'm

afraid. If we did have an Asian MP, and who is of the right calibre, it

is not about tokenism. If they were of the right calibre, then they

would surely become Prime Minister. But it would need EU to elect

Liberal Democrat MPs. -- but it would need you. Did you comment? The

Conservatives had the first Jewish Prime Minister with Benjamin

Disraeli, and two women Prime ministers. I am confident the first

Asian Prime Minister would be the Conservatives as our -- because of

our track record. I would like to say as soon as possible. That is all

from us here in Birmingham from the Elgar concert hall with the Asian

Network Big Election Debate. One week today the polls open. You are

voting for the MPs who represent us in Parliament and the Prime

Minister. Apologies to our audience, we could not cover all of your

questions. But our politicians will be around a short while C can ask

any questions you did not get the chance to. From me, the audience,

and our guests,