Rory Goes to Holyrood

This programme contains some strong language.

What is the Newsnight Scotland... Is it "Dum, dum, dum"?

Dum, dum, dum.

What do you think? Better together?

OK, here we go.

It's now time for me to introduce the man you've all come to see,

one of the finest comedians.

Please give a huge Edinburgh welcome to the fantastic Rory Bremner!

APPLAUSE

Thank you so much, thank you. OK.

That was me, Rory Bremner, about to go on stage to do my

first-ever stand-up show about Scottish politics.

I was apprehensive.

Only eight weeks earlier, I knew next to nothing

about Scotland's parliament, the politicians, or their policies.

So why do a show about it? Well, somebody has to.

And having moved back home to Scotland and become fascinated

by the debate on independence, it's time I took it seriously

and did some comedy about it.

And where better to start than my home town, Edinburgh?

They used to talk of Edinburgh as the Athens of the North.

It's even got its own acropolis on Calton Hill over there.

But if you're talking about a big, European capital,

Athens isn't a great role model right now.

So what would Edinburgh be? Would it be an Athens?

Would it be a Berlin?

See, I know nothing about Scottish politics.

I don't know, I don't know how their politicians work,

I don't know what makes them tick.

I don't know what makes them go cuckoo every 15 minutes.

But I'd love to find out.

OK, what's my story? Brought up in Scotland, tick. Scottish dad, tick.

Like haggis, whisky, Irn Bru...

Well, two out of three's not bad.

And being a great believer in Scottish traditions,

I followed the example of thousands of my fellow countrymen

and moved to England.

Spending the next 300-odd years reminding the English

that we invented the telephone, the fax machine, the flush toilet,

gin and tonic.

It's true, it's on Wikipedia.

And what did we get back?

Berwick Rangers and the last 20 minutes of Newsnight.

LAUGHTER

But before I step on stage, jokes must be written, so to help me make

some sense and nonsense of Scottish politics, I've called in the troops.

That's what history is for, in a political context.

You have to have an extremely selective knowledge of about

three facts, and then that's basically...

You can just base your whole world view on it.

Fortunately, in Scotland, most of those three facts

end up on tea towels.

Five writers and one producer round a table for a day,

trying to be funny with only tea and biscuits as sustenance.

This is a writers' room.

I've worked with Andy Zaltzman on my previous shows,

and he's one of the best political satirists working in British comedy.

Steven Dick is a comedy writer very much in demand

from the biggest comedians in the UK.

Sanjeev Kohli is a writer and actor,

best known for playing Navid in Still Game,

and Julia Sutherland is a writer, sketch performer,

and stand-up comedian.

It's like being in that marriage where you're miserable

but you're kind of happy being miserable cos you can moan,

you've got something to moan about every single day,

and you've got somebody else to blame for your misery.

-That's, that's...

-You came out with that one very quickly!

LAUGHTER

And then to marshal us all into some sort of shape

is Noddy Davidson, my producer.

You live up here, does it affect you

and do you write stuff about it as well?

I tend not to, to be honest, for the stand-up, just because

there doesn't seem to be much of an appetite for it.

I don't know whether it's because of, because people

just don't know, erm, you know, who the characters are.

The only one they know is Salmond, who, I think, he's exploited that,

because he does, he does have sort of stage presence

and they don't really know who the other players are,

and they're not that bothered, and they see them

as kind of jumped-up councillors who've all got pork chops

in their pocket, you know that, that kind of...

that kind of level of government rather than, you know,

they would still look to Westminster I think for the real characters.

Yeah, it has to be so on the surface, the jokes,

because you have to...

-If you went any deeper, you'd have to explain so much.

-Yeah.

Because, I think... Which is fine.

You're saying your audience is, like,

background reading those before they start? THEY LAUGH

Yes, there you go. 45 pages...

But to get into some of the details that we'll probably want to talk

about in our show, is it's tricky to do on a stand-up set.

I think there is that link in the process, though.

I mean, I think it runs through in sort of British, erm, television.

People saw their politicians and they began...

They recognise that, even through a comedy show, it kind of...

When there's nothing like that, there's, then there's only

the politically-minded get to see the politicians and watch them.

And I think politics is far too dangerous to be left just to

the politically-minded.

Scotland needs comedy more than ever.

With the independence debate,

finally, after 300 years, reaching room temperature...

And just imagine what William Wallace would be saying.

I don't know what William Wallace sounded like.

I imagine a bit like Gavin Hastings, you know.

-AS HASTINGS:

-This is a tremendous opportunity

for the people of Scotland. if there's ever anything

that was guaranteed to make your heart beat faster.

LAUGHTER

-SLOWLY AND CALMLY:

-You can probably hear the excitement in ma voice.

I've never felt quite so excited in my entire life.

-AS SELF:

-So tonight, it's very unlikely that you'll get any answers tonight,

but the idea is, at least we'll raise a few of the questions.

Cos the way I see it, there are some things in life

that are too important to be taken seriously, right?

And this is one of them.

So it's time, it's time to put the L in satire.

I don't really understand that joke.

Could somebody just explain it to me?

It's a big step, or a big flight of steps, from the writers' room

to the stage, and my search for material starts,

just as the new parliament did, at the Assembly Halls on the Mound.

There's a statue of John Knox outside.

He's long dead, but I'm here to meet another firebrand orator.

'Dennis Canavan made his name as a Labour back-bencher at Westminster.'

Stand up, stand up and fight!

'But he returned north with the dawn of devolution.'

So, Dennis, we're here

in the Assembly Hall of the Church of Scotland, is that right?

But also, this was the start of the Scottish Parliament, am I right?

Indeed, this is where the parliament first met.

And you were an MSP that day

when it started as the first Scottish Parliament, yeah?

Yes, I was the only independent member elected in 1999.

There's so much history about this, actually this particular room

because you can see just there was where David Steel first sat

as the First Presiding Officer.

Round about there was where Henry McLeish

was the First Minister, and if you look in the loos back there,

you can still see, scribbled as writing on the wall, saying

"If you want a good time, call this number."

Don't ring it,

you just get put through to Tommy Sheridan's answerphone.

That's satire, ladies and gentlemen.

It bothers me that I know so little about Scottish politics,

but I wonder, do the Scots themselves,

do they know that much about Scottish politics?

Are they engaged?

I don't think the electorate are as engaged as they used to be,

and I think that that shows in the turnout at general elections.

Do you think it's like with New Labour, that, you know that,

that small public meetings and constituency surgeries,

and the kind of real grassroots politics was less important

to these guys, cos they were busy talking to the head of BP

or the head of the banks or this or that,

because that's how they saw politics?

Do you think that's part of that disconnect?

Yes, I think that, that Blair and some of his acolytes

were speaking to the wrong people.

Did you come across Mandelson a few times?

What did he make of you?

I don't know what Mandelson...

-AS MANDELSON:

-I'm a very nice chap, Dennis, I'm a very...

No, you and I, as you know, I'm a Labour man through and through

and I'm Labour in my heart.

It's just I, just don't seem to be able to find it at the moment,

but you're a very, very good man.

-AS SELF:

-Did you ever meet him? Chalk and cheese?

-Oh, yes!

-Chalk and cheese comes to mind.

-I met him.

I don't know what Mandelson thought of me,

but I didn't think very highly of him!

The SNP have been in the majority in Scotland for how long now?

Just since the last elections to the Scottish Parliament.

And he got a remarkable vote, didn't he, Alex Salmond? Why?

Why did he get such a big vote?

Well, Salmond is a very strong character.

He's probably the most astute political leader

of his generation in Scotland.

Not a big generation, it has to be said, though!

I mean, I don't know who these people are.

I mean, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon,

are there any other fish in the sea?

I don't know - yet. Let's go and find the people who vote for

and pay for these politicians.

They're bound to know. Who's that?

Oh, it's erm...

-Alex Salmond, isn't it?

-Yeah.

Who are these people? Who are they?

Er, that's the head of the Tories in Scotland.

Well done, whose name is?

Er...

-He looks like a schoolboy. Who's that?

-I don't know that one.

Who's that? Who's that?

-Who's that?

-Alistair Darling.

I knew his face.

Can I just... can I just get this right,

you're from San Antonio, Texas.

-Who's that?

-Alex Salmond.

-What do you think of him?

Oh, I'm no comment.

-Who's that?

-Jackie Baillie.

Jackie who?

Why is it that we don't know who these politicians are?

Well I know that's Alex, he's the King.

Very good. Absolutely right. Do you like him?

Not particularly.

I'm really bad with names.

I recognise faces but I don't recognise...

-Do you know who that is?

-No, but I don't do politics.

-You don't do politics?

-I don't know these things.

-You're not Rory Bremner, are you?

-Yeah!

I asked the people in the street and it turns out

they didn't have a clue either.

You know, show them a picture of Roseanna Cunningham

or Iain Gray and they just look blank.

Johann Lamont, they go, "No, what is this? Crimewatch?"

LAUGHTER

We showed one woman a picture of Willie Rennie, you know,

the Lib Dem leader.

She'd never seen him before.

Turns out she'd been married to him for 15 years.

Although to be fair, he is one of the Lib Dems,

so, you know, they only meet up occasionally to exchange gifts,

pleasantries and points on their driving licence.

But does anyone actually know what Willie Rennie sounds like?

You know, for all I know, he sounds like Nelson Mandela.

-AS MANDELA:

-People of Kelty.

LAUGHTER

We'll negotiate to sort out the weekly bin collection.

LAUGHTER

But surely someone somewhere knows who these politicians are,

and what's funny about them?

The British Empire don't get rid of colonies that easily, do they?

America had to fight a war of independence,

Ireland had to fight a war of independence,

and Indian independence mainly brought about

cos Gandhi went on hunger strike to bring down the British Raj.

Christ almighty,

you can't see Alex Salmond going on a hunger strike, eh?!

Paul Sneddon is one of Scotland's sharpest stand-up comedians,

one of only a few making jokes at the expense and the expenses

of Scotland's politicians, and he has a familiar tale to tell.

About ten years ago, I went on a similar journey to you.

I lived down south and came back here round about the time

the Parliament opened, and I thought, wow, the Parliament's opening,

we're going to get a huge new load of political people we can actually,

you know, we can satirise, we can take the piss out of.

And then found out that it was pointless, cos most people

in the audience would think, "Who the hell are you talking about?"

But I have noticed a change in, I guess, over the last

six months to a year, now we're aware of the referendum coming.

People are switched-on to the subject,

whether they don't care, they're still engaged.

So they know it's coming, and so they are prepared

to laugh about the whole thing.

There's a thing down south that people only really know

who the politicians are when they get into a scandal, like David Laws.

"Oh, that's the gay one with the expenses."

Andrew Mitchell, he's plebgate.

Is it the same up here, you've had your scandals?

We've had scandals,

but the scandals up here were of such a ridiculously small nature.

They were almost not worth writing about.

I mean, look at the States.

The States have good scandals, don't they, and always have had, you know,

from Watergate, through to all the stuff that Clinton

had to put up with.

So talk me through the gates here?

Well, we had Piegate.

-Piegate?!

-Yes, I know, unbelievable.

We had Piegate.

Frank McAveety, who was the Sport & Culture Secretary, I believe,

didn't attend parliamentary questions because he was

in the canteen eating a pie, but claimed he was, quote,

"dealing with some administration".

To be honest, you know,

there aren't many MSPs who'd set the world on fire.

There's one who set the curtains on fire, but he was pissed,

he got 16 months in jail.

Do you remember Mike Watson? Do you remember that?

Yeah. He can't.

So, who should I be doing then?

Well, obviously Alex.

Yeah, that's the first one.

I don't know what level of visuals you're going for here,

-but you might be quite a long time in...

-In make-up.

Getting the prosthetics.

How long does it take him every morning, do you think?

To look like that?

Actually, what you could do is just wear a panda suit.

He's looking increasingly more and more like the pandas

in Edinburgh Zoo.

In fact, one of them hasn't been seen for a few weeks,

so we reckon he might have eaten it.

I might draw the line at a panda suit,

but I will need to start with the First Minister's voice.

And so, I utilised a technique developed through

decades of experience.

Talking to myself while driving.

We need to have a listen to what this guy sounds like.

-SALMOND SPEECH TAPE PLAYS:

-'..our party's history and our country's recent history,

'to secure a better future for our families.'

Secure, secure...to skewer a better future?

'..a future that starts with a Yes vote.'

A nation that starts...

'This week, I met with the Prime Minister to sign

'the Edinburgh agreement.'

-Wooo.

-'An agreement which gives our own Parliament unchallenged legal

'authority to hold a referendum, which agrees the process,

'respects the outcome...'

He's got that kind of back of the throat thing.

"Agrees the process, respects the outcome."

It's game on for Scotland.

It's game on for Scotland, for Scotland.

APPLAUSE ON TAPE

Oh, big applause.

-AS SALMOND:

-And that's why I say to you today, with my wee back-of-the-throat...

'That referendum creates a once-in-a...

"'Crates' a once-in-a-generation..."

'..and, conference, that must include the new generation.'

-That's two generations.

-'16 and 17-year-olds.'

-AS SALMOND:

-It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity for two generations.

It's a once-in-two-generations opportunity

and I say to you, delegates... Delegates?

-AS SELF:

-What delegates? I've got a setting on my washing machine for that.

-AS SALMOND:

-Delicates.

And so I say to you, mixed wash,

I say to you, the whites heavy soil of our future,

we're heading out of the spin cycle of devolution

towards the rinse of independence.

-AS SELF:

-It's impossible to exaggerate the dominance of Alex Salmond

in Scottish politics, though you can't blame him for trying.

But if Salmond's the biggest fish in the pond,

that pond owes its existence to another powerful politician.

Charismatic, delusions of grandeur, kept me in work for years,

ring any bells?

Tony Blair's relationship with the Scottish Parliament

was always a bit ambiguous.

-AS BLAIR:

-You know, oh, you know, it was, er, the devolution

of the Scottish Parliament, well, it was the least I could do.

Literally.

You know, believe me, I checked.

I mean, you know, devolution, well, that's your lot, eh?

I mean, come on, the next thing you'll be wanting evolution.

-AS SELF:

-In the words of George Robertson it was meant to

"kill nationalism stone dead", which clearly worked.

But like everything else with New Labour,

it lasted for about ten years, and now everything's focused

on the vote for independence.

And the idea is that the people of Scotland should elect

a government that's voted for by the majority of the population,

and if that works, they'll try it at Westminster as well.

LAUGHTER

Time to pay a visit to the beating heart of Scottish politics,

the Parliament at Holyrood, an impressive, if controversial

new building, it feels very European - by which I mean, it's modern,

different, exciting and massively over-budget.

By the time it opened, it had already got its own public enquiry

and never got to see Scotland's first two First Ministers.

When something is new, we'll slag it off, slag it off,

and there'll come a tipping point where it's been there

for long enough, we'll be very proud of it,

and don't you dare slag it off, and that's our thing.

I think the parliament might be getting into that territory

now where we're getting quite proud of that building, you know.

But 400 million or something, and it was originally going to be

-60 or something?

-It was three years late, three years!

You know, I thought my plumber was bad but... Yes.

If I'm to understand Scottish politics,

I need to get a feel for how this parliament operates.

Journalist-turned-prominent MSP Joan McAlpine

was kind enough to show me round the building, allowing me

to experience for myself the red hot core of government.

Well, at least look at it through a pane of satire-proof glass.

So this is the entrance to the Debating Chamber

-of the Scottish Parliament.

-Ah, right.

-So you see it's very different from Westminster.

-Wow!

-It's very light.

-I see. It's really impressive.

I've not seen it before, except on television,

and it's much lighter and larger than you expect.

It's different from Westminster.

It's very different, and the idea was that, you know,

he wanted a banana-shaped parliament as opposed to a...

So you'll be a banana republic?

The idea was that you wouldn't be adversarial,

and that we'd all love one another and agree with one another,

and eh, in the Scottish Parliament, which happens sometimes.

-Yeah.

-Sometimes we agree on things.

The only difference in the Scottish Parliament is they have to

press a button before they start shouting at each other.

They have buttons and it sort of puts a little light up

and then the speaker gets to decide who gets to speak.

That'll be better.

Yes, so we'll go, this number here, it's you over there,

press the button, and it turns their microphone on.

-It's like being in a radio studio.

-"We've got Alex on line one."

LAUGHTER

"Alex, make your point, make it quick."

'Along a beautifully expensive polished floor reflecting

'some delightfully expensive timberwork,

'I found an old friend, Margo MacDonald.

'She's a brave and popular character, an independent MSP

'and an independent spirit.'

People expect me, because I do stand-up, because I've done

satire, as soon as I do a show in Scotland

they go "oh, what will you say about Scottish Parliament?" I don't know what to say cos

I don't know and, you know, that'll...

You'll fit in extremely well here then.

HE LAUGHS

So, I mean, here we are in, in the parliament building,

and I've never been here before and, you know,

on the face of it, it seems a very impressive building.

There are bits in it

that are absolutely lovely,

but don't get caught in the

dining room between November and March,

unless you have a fur coat to wear at table.

I mean, you were obviously one of the critics.

-Has it grown on you as a building?

-Yes. Yes.

"You get used to everything except hanging,"

my mother used to say.

THEY LAUGH

But no, no, I have got used to it and there's parts of it I like,

but it's not really a very functional building.

It seems a civilised place to be because there's, you know,

lots of light, lots of good spaces you could meet.

The offices seemed... I mean, there were sort of quite quirky

things to the design, and I love the way Margo MacDonald said

"I said, 'How many people are you expecting to get here as visitors?'

"and they said 'Oh, about 700,000 a year.'

"I said 'There's nae toilets,'" and she said,

"You could see the blood drain from this guy's face and he went away,

"came back, and said, 'Well, we're part of a tourist hub,' he said,

"'so they'll go and see the Dynamic Earth,

"'then they'll come to the Parliament.

"'and then they'll go to Holyrood Palace.

"'and they've toilets there.'"

THEY LAUGH

But Scottish politicians more have heard of tend

to be the ones who joined the circus,

down at Westminster.

Labour ones, like Gordon Brown and John Smith

and Alistair Darling and John Reid.

Lib Dems like David Steel and Charles Kennedy and Ming Campbell,

and Tory ones like...

LAUGHTER

Hang on. Erm...

Hang on. Name... Name a Scottish Tory.

-Tony Blair.

-Tony Blair.

LAUGHTER

No, we know he's Tory, he's just not Scottish.

But the rest are Scottish through and through,

none more than Gordon Brown.

-AS BROWN:

-Now let me... Let me make it...

make it quite clear.

My father...my father was a... was a Kirk minister

and my mother

played for Raith Rovers.

LAUGHTER

-AS SELF:

-But they all headed South.

For decades, two of our biggest exports to England were whisky

and Scottish MPs.

Or in the case of Charles Kennedy, both.

-AS KENNEDY:

-No, hang on just a wee moment just there,

because, I think, to be fair, to be fair, a lot of Lib Dems

would prefer me pissed to Nick Clegg sober,

let me just make that clear.

APPLAUSE DROWNS OUT SPEECH

There's no doubt about that, you know.

-AS SELF:

-But why do they all head South?

Well, lots of reasons, you know, bigger stage, more expenses,

chance to become a political heavyweight,

or, in the case of Eric Joyce,

a political light-heavyweight.

And then there's Dumfries and Galloway.

Dumfries, only Tory MP in Scotland,

and Galloway.

George Galloway, who stood for election

for the Scottish Parliament, but remains a staunch unionist.

-AS GALLOWAY:

-Let me say to you...

LAUGHTER

I am in favour of retaining the union.

Tell your friends, tell your friends.

Let me adumbrate my reasons.

As you know, Scotland has a great deal of oil.

We are an oil-rich nation,

and where there is a small nation with

a great deal of oil, I am never in favour of regime change.

LAUGHTER

David Cameron, George Osborne,

Danny Alexander, Alistair Darling,

I dip my whiskers in your cream.

LAUGHTER

'While down South, targets for satire were provided by any

'number of senior politicians -

'and George Galloway -

'back in Scotland, they're harder to find.

'I need to get a handle on the main men in Holyrood.

'Well, for a start, that should be main women.'

Ruth Davidson!

There was a £176m that came to Scotland

yesterday as a result of that budget.

Johann Lamont.

I'll just wait until you're quiet and then I'll say it

so you can hear it.

It worked when I was in the classroom,

there's no reason why it shouldn't work now.

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

'Journalists are always a good source of material.

'They can be refreshingly candid about the politicians

'they work alongside.

'And they don't come any more candid than

'Alan Cochrane, the Scottish Editor of the Daily Telegraph,

'who writes every day about the goings-on at Holyrood.'

Well, I do commentaries. When I first started doing it,

they thought of putting the word sketch on it, but I don't really

do colour, I do insults most days,

and mostly about Nationalists.

You'd be at home in Scottish politics then,

cos there's a lot of insults flying around.

It's a very bitter arena.

I mean, there's nothing like

the camaraderie that you

have in Westminster, cos I worked in Westminster for a long time.

There was often quite...pals across the dispatch box.

That ain't the case here,

and especially not between the Nats - the Nationalists - and Labour.

They really do loathe each other with a passion, it's great stuff.

You've been writing about Scottish politicians up here.

Are they easy to send up?

Well, they're fairly one-dimensional.

I mean, it's... What's the expression?

You get what's on the tin.

They are what they say they are.

They're not like a lot of Westminster politicians.

They're not like David Cameron, a rich kid from

Eton who pretends he's ordinary middle class

or George Osborne who pretends he's not a millionaire.

They're all self-made, there's no sort of...

Very little public school ethos in Scottish politics,

and then the women tend to be as hard as nails.

I mean, Johann Lamont is tough as old boots, hide of a rhino,

brilliant debater and, I mean, I hate these sexist expressions

but in Glasgow it's said that

you wouldn't take a burst pay packet home to Johann Lamont.

There are a lot more women in the Scottish Parliament than in...

That's a really positive thing, isn't it?

I mean, it's effectively three party...

Well, if you leave Alex Salmond out

as kind of the President rather than the...

LAUGHTER

You know? Effectively, the three leaders of the main parties.

And one of them's a kickboxer.

And a lesbian. And it's the Tory!

Who knew that? That's amazing, I mean, that's just...

We had that with Thatcher, of course.

LAUGHTER

That's the great thing, the fantastic thing about Scottish politics, that the

Tory leader is a lesbian kickboxer.

Beat that, David Cameron!

LAUGHTER

Nicola Sturgeon, you know, very strong,

powerful position in the SNP.

Ruth Davidson, the Tories, and Johann Lamont, Labour Party.

Three strong women at the front of politics.

That's a good thing. Does it change the quality of the debate?

It's very good, because...

And, it was one of the things that they did at the start of the

Scottish Parliament, which I was a bit dubious about, but it's worked.

No, I think there's a huge proportion of women in here.

Much better than Westminster, and they do change

the atmosphere of the place.

For a starter, they've all got to be hame for their tea at 5.30.

I mean, that place disappears like snow off a dyke come 5.30.

They're down here for the train back home to Glasgow

or wherever they're going.

That's very civilised.

Well, it is and it isn't, because it means that the day's debates

are truncated to a ridiculous extent.

For instance, a speech during a big bill in the Scottish Parliament

seldom lasts more than five minutes, a backbench speech.

Whereas at Westminster, they can talk as long as they like,

until the guillotine comes down. So, I mean...

But it focuses... You've obviously never done the school run.

Of course I have. Of course I have.

I've done it twice, I'm on my second marriage.

-So you CAN break up a union?

-Ah...

Now, there's lots of jokes about them working three days a week.

Now, I kind of like the fact that they had Mondays to go to the

constituencies and work stuff out.

I mean, if you think about it, either people scrabble

to try to get everything ready on a Sunday night in family time

and all the rest of it, or they think

"OK, right, Monday the children are at school, or whatever,

"and I can concentrate, focus and

"do the work and prepare for the debate on Tuesday."

So it seemed very civilised.

I had a more cynical approach to that one of the short working weeks,

thinking that Johann Lamont, who used to be a teacher,

she moved from teaching into the Parliament

because it's the only business that gets more holidays!

LAUGHTER

Alex Salmond, talk about him as a character and as a personality

and as a politician.

Alex Salmond is a sort of guy from a cooncil hoose in Linlithgow,

went to St Andrews University, very clever, a lad o' pairts,

as you know the expression.

A lad of what?

A lad of pairts. It means a lad who's been around and got on.

-P-a-i-r-t-s, check it.

-OK.

He is definitely the biggest beast in the Scottish political firmament.

In fact, there's no arguments with the great leader, Alex Salmond.

Nobody disputes what he says.

I'm sure they do privately, in the dark watches of the night

or in some secret bar in Edinburgh where he can't find them

or hear them, they dispute his policies, but it's astonishing.

And I hesitate to use the word Stalinist, but it's Stalinist.

-SALMOND:

-'This referendum is not just about an independent Scotland.

'It's about a belief that, for Scotland,

'there can be, there must be a better way.'

When you're learning a voice, you've got to listen to it

often enough and long enough to forget what's being said

and concentrate on how they're saying it.

So you pick up a kind of rhythm and you think,

-AS SALMOND:

-Where does it come from?

Does it come from the throat?

Does it come from the nose? Is it nasal?

Does it come from in-between the buttocks?

-AS SELF:

-And then, once you start to learn the speech pattern...

It's the same with someone like Obama,

AS OBAMA: Because Obama speaks very slowly,

in sentences of five words.

Occasionally two.

Sometimes even three.

-AS SALMOND:

-And with Alex Salmond, I think it is...

It's a thin, reedy sort of back-of-the-throat kind of voice,

but he projects. He's a good speaker.

-AS SELF:

-God, that's such a fantastic view of the Forth and over to Fife...

-AS BROWN:

-And the kingdom of Gordon Brown where he sits in Queensferry

and broods and looks down... and thinks of what might have been

and what should have been...

and what could have been.

-AS SELF:

-'I cross over the Forth Bridge within view of Gordon Brown's

'northern retirement home, Dunrulin, and head for Aberdeen.

'I might be learning a bit about who runs Scotland,

'but what about who owns Scotland?

'Just a drive and a wedge from Donald Trump's controversial new

'golf course on "the great doons of Scotland," I meet campaigner

'Andy Wightman, who can dish the dirt on our own little patch of dirt.'

Who actually owns the land in Scotland?

We've got a very, very concentrated

pattern of land ownership.

About two thirds of Scotland

is owned by 1,500, 1,600 people.

The most concentrated pattern of private land ownership

anywhere in the world really, outside...

-More than England?

-Yes, yes, yes.

And the interesting thing about Scotland is

we haven't followed the European model.

You know, most of continental Europe - France, Germany, Italy,

Scandinavia - you know, they had revolutions,

they changed the inheritance laws to give children the right to inherit

land, whereas in Scotland we've been kind of stuck in the dark ages.

Does the Crown not own a lot of Scotland, as well?

Well, the Crown owns the land we're walking on just now. It owns...

-Really?

-Yeah. It owns about half of the foreshore.

You know, traditionally the Crown had paid

for the upkeep of the country.

They'd paid the diplomats, they'd paid the navy,

and then as we started getting income taxes

and other taxes and government grew, the government said

"Look, we'll take that revenue and we'll just pay you a civil list."

So, I mean, actually people like Prince Charles I think have been

very keen to get back the revenues of the Crown for himself.

But, you know, if... And he has actually been quite active in that.

But if he did want that, the deal would be

he would have to pay for the Foreign Office and Her Majesty's

ships and stuff, you know, because this is revenue.

-AS CHARLES:

-Would you mind not saying that on camera?

It's a lot of money. I mean, I don't know if you've met

many diplomats, but they drink such a lot of wine.

I've got cellars at home...

He's got 15%. You know. Is it called the Sovereign Grant Bill?

So the Crown Estate is essentially stuff that has come to

royalty or the monarchy.

It's not owned by the Queen, it's owned by the Crown Estate.

So it means that the Queen can never sell it, but it means she owns it.

-What can she do on it?

-Well, she earns money from it.

She earns 15% of everything that's made on it

and the rest goes to the taxpayer,

but that was the deal, that she gets 15% of everything.

Right, so you could say she's taxed at 85%

on everything she gets.

LAUGHTER

-She's a hero.

-Yes. Exactly!

Out here, they're planning this big Aberdeen,

you know, renewable project.

Oh, a wind farm?

Yeah, yeah, a big test facility for offshore renewables.

Very important test facility.

Now, of course, they'll be paying rent to the Crown for...

-Ker-ching!

-..permission to,

you know, use the sea bed.

Now, if we can get that sorted,

then Scotland's got 25% of the marine renewable

resources of the whole of Europe in wind and wave and tidal.

As long as the moon spins rounds the Earth, I think we're all right.

If the Scottish people vote for independence in 2014,

the big question, "Will the moon still revolve around the Earth?"

That's a good question. I think the Better Together campaign

are arguing that there's a risk it won't.

At least it'll miss out Scotland, you know?

It's not exactly a rallying call for independence, is it?

-It's not neat, no.

-More tax on land.

Do we establish it's not a rich area for comedy, land reform?

LAUGHTER

Very pleasurable to read about.

Fascinating stuff.

There's been no better bedtime reading than...

Jimmy Cricket had some great stuff on it...

And, talking of rich areas, they don't come much richer than oil.

For decades, North Sea oil has had

a major effect on Britain's fortunes.

The black stuff, and the little matter of who owns it,

is at the heart of the argument over independence.

Getting to the truth is hard.

Making it funny might be an even bigger challenge.

I wanted to talk to an expert, and who better than

Professor Alex Kemp, who wrote the book on North Sea oil.

Actually, two books.

Can he settle the argument once and for all?

If Scotland were to declare independence next year,

would they have all that oil at their disposal?

Is there a cut-and-dried answer to the fact that,

no question, oil will fuel Scottish independence?

OK, well, the first point I would make is that the

remaining potential is still very large.

We produced about 41 billion barrels oil equivalent to date.

The remaining potential, the central estimate

of the Department of Energy is about 20 billion barrels

of oil equivalent, which is, of course, still a huge amount.

'There's still a lot of oil there now'

according to oil expert Alex Kemp,

who spent the last eight years writing the two-volume

official history of Scottish oil.

You should get hold of it, if only because when the oil runs out,

you'll still have enough fuel to burn for at least three years.

And it's generally accepted that there's at least

one and a half trillion pounds worth of oil

and gas left in the North Sea, which is great.

It's one of the biggest bones of contention between the pro and anti-independence lobby.

It's the source of one of the biggest conspiracy theories

for the Nationalists, based around the McCrone Report,

which sounds like a study of Scottish witches.

LAUGHTER

"Hubble, bubble, oil is trouble."

And what it showed was that oil was a huge potential benefit

for an independent Scotland, and, not surprisingly,

it's one of the key arguments for the Nationalists now.

-AS CAMERON:

-I mean, look, it's ridiculous.

Just because the government at Westminster,

perfectly reasonable, kept that report hidden away for nearly

30 years under lock and key,

refusing to let anyone else see it,

it doesn't mean that they should get all upset about it now.

-AS SELF:

-The report, the 1970s, it suggested that Scotland's

currency could be one of the most stable in the world.

All the world's wealthy would flock here.

Maryhill would become the new Monte Carlo.

LAUGHTER

Sean Connery would swap the Bahamas for Millport.

-AS CONNERY:

-"Shlightly chilly for the time of year."

So there's a lot there. Whose is it?

OK, on that point, if it came to independence,

we estimate that, as far as oil is concerned,

it could be well over 90%,

94, 95% of the oil

would be in what would become the Scottish sector.

That fact that popped up about Tony Blair shifting

-the maritime boundary.

-Yes! I had no idea!

What? What's that?

Well, it was... Unless it's completely made up, but...

-Yeah, again!

-It was Tony Blair, exactly.

In 1999, Tony Blair shifted the maritime boundary to include,

basically... They moved it up from, was it?

Up to Carnoustie from somewhere.

They've done it really quietly. I didn't know until I read it...

To be fair, he was going to give Scotland Basra,

that was part of his plan...

LAUGHTER

Tony Blair quietly redrew the boundary in 1999, extending

England's coastal waters northwards to take in more of the North Sea.

-AS BILLY CONNOLLY:

-Oh, do you bloody think so?

-AS BLAIR:

-Oh, come on, look.

Perfectly legal.

I mean, look, do you really think that

I would do something illegal...

..just to get hold of some oil?

LAUGHTER

Who do you think I am?

If we take the last financial year,

2011/12, we estimate that

the Scottish government, if it were independent,

would have got about ten billion pounds from North Sea oil.

Now that's very, very big, and looking forward,

I've said as a guesstimate, that there could be between

five and ten billion pounds per year.

How much impact is it going to have on ordinary Scots?

Is it just going to end up with one super-rich Scot pissing

all his money away on a premiership football club?

Also, the first ten years of oil revenue is just going to go to

pay off Rangers' debt.

LAUGHTER

Tax bill, yeah.

You're not going to get out of Glasgow alive, Andy...

I'm a Partick Thistle fan. Massive, massive fan.

I'm Jewish. That's the Jewish club isn't it, Partick Thistle?

With a signing bigger than any by Partick Thistle,

the date of the referendum was set - September 18th 2014.

Potentially the biggest social

and political change Scotland has seen in 300 years,

the outcome of the referendum raises many questions.

Even the question of the question itself begs questions.

'The wording of the question.'

Both sides obviously wanted to get their favoured wording on the ballot paper.

The SNP originally wanted two questions.

One, "Are you in favour of an independent Scotland?"

Two, "Why not?"

LAUGHTER

When the SNP were told it had to be one question, they wanted

"Should Scotland ditch the bloated,

"straggly appendage that's been dangling off

"its southern border, holding it back

"for the last 300 years?"

LAUGHTER

While the unionists wanted the question to be

"Do you really want to chainsaw the Queen into pieces

"just for the sake of petty political point scoring?"

Even Better Together sounds a wee bit timid,

a wee bit scared to go alone, but the No campaign's actually

missed out one of the best reasons for staying together, which is

that we've always got somebody else to blame.

So we blame the English for screwing everything up and they blame us

for being Scottish, and it's worked for 300 years.

Mutual blame.

They should call the campaign Bitter Together.

LAUGHTER

Are there any sort of actors that have come out

in favour of, like vehemently or vocally, in favour of the union?

Sean Connery...No, he's on the opposite.

Billy Connolly, I think, Billy Connolly.

Is he not a bit more pro-union?

You obviously get people in the business sector,

like Michelle Mone. but then Better Together,

isn't that the kind of the tagline of...

The opposite. Don't get very good cleavage.

LAUGHTER

But Michelle Mone sells bras.

Of course she'd say Better Together,

but she also sells separates.

Hmm. But what about the Yes campaign?

'Can Scotland go it alone?'

'The SNP's unprecedented victory at the last Scottish elections

'meant they could stop dreaming of independence

'and start campaigning for it.'

There's no question that, you know, the idea of independence,

there is a romantic sort of idealism about it, but there are

so many really sort of quite thorny, difficult practical issues.

So presumably you're going to spend the next year,

year and a half explaining how to solve those?

Well, with the Union there are

a lot of thorny, difficult issues.

There's a lot of uncertainty,

and we're looking ahead, you know,

we've lost the AAA credit rating, we're having a thing

called the bedroom tax imposed on people in Scotland.

You know, the poorest people, 100,000 people,

80% of whom have got disabilities,

are going to be at risk of being thrown out of their house.

That's under the Union and most,

90% of Scottish MPs in Westminster voted against that.

Very quickly, Westminster becomes a symbol of everything that's

wrong and independence becomes this Promised Land where you place

all of your hopes and dreams.

There's something strangely familiar about the dream.

You know, the chance of a new, social democratic beginning,

free from the old Tory establishment where...

-AS BLAIR:

-The country could choose a better future,

where the nation's children would not

be sent to fight in foreign wars...

..and illegal occupations.

-AS SELF:

-And you think "Where have I heard that before?"

You know, Tony Blair actually said that in 1997, in May 1997 in Paris.

-AS BLAIR:

-"Ours may be the first generation never to go to war

or send their children to war."

Yeah, all right, OK. I had my fingers crossed.

But, look...

-AS SELF:

-But if that happened before, it's possible. Who knows?

In a few years' time Scotland could go to war with an oil-rich

nation, possibly the Shetlands...

LAUGHTER

And then where would we be?

Sure, Scotland has oil, but it will run out at some time

and then we'll be reduced to fracking Alex Salmond.

LAUGHTER

So you know, you're making a case very strongly,

and the union, as I say,

it's kind of like on its back at the moment with its legs in the air,

Should you not be doing better than, what, 30, 35%?

Well, the last poll had about 11 points between the

Yes and the No, so that's a five point swing that you need,

and there's lots of people who haven't made up their mind yet.

Now, if you look in 2011 in the election,

the SNP was 15 points behind Labour in January

and we went on in May to win an overall majority.

So we think that five point swing is...

We're not taking anything for granted, but we think we'll do it.

'I'll mark Joan down as a 'Yes'.

'But what about the Nos?

'As I head to London to find out, I'm still fretting about the big

'question - can I master that impression of Alex Salmond?'

-SALMOND:

-'This referendum is not just about an independent Scotland,

'it's about a belief that, for Scotland,

'there can be, there must be a better way.'

Really, you know a voice is ready when you can just picture

somebody in your mind making a speech, and you're providing

the soundtrack to that speech and if...

..if it rings true...

-AS SALMOND:

-If it sounds right, if it sounds more or less there,

try it out on other people.

And you say 'Who's that?'

And if they say "that sounds like Nelson Mandela"

then you know you're not quite there, you're not in the zone.

It is now or never.

I believe it was that well-known independent Scot,

the father of Scottish Nationalism, Elvis Presley, who first uttered

the immortal words 'it's now or never'

and it's sad that he will no longer be with us,

to see that great day of independence, having chosen instead

an ignominious death, sitting on the cludgie, wi' a carry out.

That is how he ended his life, conference,

but that is how I began mine...on the cludgie wi' a carry out,

saying to myself 'it's now or never'.

We're gonna squeeze this thing out if it's the last thing we do,

until we finally pass the motion

and celebrate this great nation.

Thank you, I move.

-AS SELF:

-And so we come to Alex Salmond, inevitably, because it is in fact,

it is illegal under the Scottish Constitution,

to do a programme about independence without mentioning Alex Salmond.

He is officially the only politician in Scotland.

The great leader, not so much a career politician as a North Korea politician.

LAUGHTER

Not so much Kim Jong-"Ill" as Kim Jong-Peely-Wally.

LAUGHTER

Office at the top of the Scott Monument with a 360-degree view over the capital,

like a Bond villain stroking a cat...or Nicola Sturgeon.

LAUGHTER

"One day, all this will be mine."

What happens if the people of Shetland decide it's time they want to be independent?

Has Alex Salmond checked that contract?

"People of Shetland, I say to you 'Better Together'."

LAUGHTER

I may be an impressionist, but I'm also impressionable.

The Nationalists have had their chance to sway me with the possibilities

of an independent Scotland.

Now it's time to hear the other side.

I need to hear a strong argument, and when it comes to arguing,

they don't come much stronger than Westminster MP Ian Davidson.

What you're doing is, instead of going ahead with a legal solution,

you attach conditions to it, which is a political decision.

No, I understand that, I mean I understand that

"News-Nat" Scotland's position is that the power should be given to the Scottish Parliament

and the SNP should do as they wish. We understand that, the reality is...

Mr Davidson, that is a ludicrous... I cannot let you continue, that is a ludicrous proposition to say.

-Well, I don't believe it.

-I am asking you...

And I am about to answer you if you won't interrupt, let me answer.

-I am asking you a reasonable question and I am entitled to.

-And I'm entitled to answer.

Time to go toe-to-toe with the honourable member for Glasgow South-West,

in the gladiatorial arena that is Westminster Hall.

Pretty strong Tory majority down south, does it not tempt you to think,

well, actually, you've got a strong Labour tradition in Scotland

and if that was an independent country there's a lot you could do?

That's just a "have you stopped beating your wife" sort of question.

I don't accept,

that those are the only two options, either separation, as we would call it, or being run by the Tories.

I think that what Labour has fought for with the assistance of the Liberals and some others

for a period is remaining in the United Kingdom and devolution,

which in my view gives us the best of both possible worlds.

I do think that there are enormous advantages that Scotland gets from being part

of the Union, but there's also huge gains that we get from having a devolved parliament.

-But they'd say they're frustrated...

-Of course they do.

"Why aren't the people of Scotland allowed to decide the future of Scotland?"

runs the argument.

The people of Scotland will be allowed to decide the future of Scotland by a referendum,

and I think if we vote, as I anticipate we will, to remain within the United Kingdom,

then we will have chosen that particular option.

Just a few weeks ago the Scottish Government named the day for the vote, 18th September, 2014.

Big day, big day.

2014 will, of course, be the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn,

one of the most famous victories in Scottish history, right up there with Wembley in 1967

and Murrayfield 1990.

-AS BILL MCLAREN:

-And there's Tony Stanger in the corner, my goodness me, he's gonna score

and they'll be dancing in the streets of Drumnadrochit tonight I tell you, och, well.

APPLAUSE

And it'll also be the 40th anniversary of the Bay City Rollers' breakthrough year.

Yeah, so it cuts both ways, really, doesn't it?

I mean, Scotland as a financial market, as a financial situation,

we would have been bankrupt had we not had the United Kingdom to

bail the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Bank of Scotland out.

Quite clearly that would have been the case.

Our crisis would have been far, far greater than that of Ireland or any of the Mediterranean

countries in these circumstances.

That's one of the strengths of the Union.

The Unionists always ask how Scotland would have survived after RBS blew up,

forgetting that most of RBS's operation was based in London or the United States.

Their mess, they clear it up.

What people don't understand is that the word 'Scotland' in the name Royal Bank of Scotland

was purely a selling point.

It was ceremonial, to make, to make it more appealing.

Like the word beef in Tesco's beef burgers.

LAUGHTER

It's purely for selling.

Why is there no political comedy in Scotland?

Cos we're all boring and dull. It's too serious.

Well, you are, obviously, but I mean...

Thank you, thank you. That's...thank you, Mr Kettle.

Erm, but this is a serious business, we certainly don't want any

stuck-up public schoolboys coming north and mocking us.

I mean no names, no pack-drill, erm, but you know, the fact that you're,

the fact that you're Scottish might allow you to get away with it.

But again, you're one of that tribe that presumably an expensive education

was spent making sure you didn't sound Scottish?

Half of me is Scottish.

That's right, half of you is Scottish.

So I mean I think that the people would, would be quite happy to be mocked by their own.

'Ooft! Well, perhaps this debate is a little more heated than I first imagined.'

'The Lib Dems are also preaching that we're better together,

'but theirs is a No backed up with an alternative.'

'And thankfully, one side effect of devolution is that the Scottish Secretary, Michael Moore,

'has more than enough free time to speak to the likes of me.'

You're part of the coalition. You wake up every morning and you see what Cameron and Osborne

have done, and you think, "Oh, no we're being tarred with that brush."

You're part of the coalition and you get blamed for the austerity, for the cuts, for all of that,

and you're thinking, you know, "We could break free of being a member of the coalition."

Could you not just bring the same argument to Scotland?

Things are tough at the moment, really tough, and they will be tough for, for a while yet.

But the idea that somehow with one bound we might be free

and it would all be rosy and different, I don't think...

Scots are essentially pragmatic, I don't think people buy that.

What they do see is the strength of being part of something bigger,

when the competition in the world is only going to get stiffer.

That's much better, to be part of the UK than to be on our own.

There is a third way in all this, and of course it's a Lib Dem suggestion.

It's called the Home Rule Commission.

If you're having trouble sleeping I can recommend

the Lib Dem's Home Rule and Community Rule Commission Report.

It's a federal approach, calling for increased local powers,

so a centralised Westminster Government isn't replaced by a centralised Edinburgh Government.

But there's a strong Lib Dem tradition in Scotland,

David Steel, Charles Kennedy, Ming Campbell -

who, who fought at Bannockburn of course.

LAUGHTER

-AS PAXMAN:

-Erm, yes, Ming Campbell, you'll be Chair of the Home Rule and Community Rule Commission.

Erm, is this some kind of fudge?

-AS MING:

-Well, no, if, if it is Jeremy, I'd make the point that

it's a Scottish fudge, so therefore technically it's a tablet.

LAUGHTER

-AS PAXMAN:

-Eh, yes, and what's, what's the difference?

-AS MING:

-Tablet's a lot harder, which goes to show that we in the

Liberal Democrats aren't afraid of making hard choices, whether that be

a question of constitutional reform or sugar-based confectionary.

AS PAXMAN: Yes, Ming Campbell, away and boil your fudge.

Have any of you been tempted by independence, any of you in favour of it?

Because, you know, if you listen to the arguments, there are moments when you, erm...

D'you know what, instinctively I was against it,

but since working on the show and reading some of the facts,

actually once you read some facts...

Don't read facts!

It's sort of becoming possible.

How can you make a decision based on facts?!

We don't need a debate. What we really need is a comparison website.

-AS BILLY CONNOLLY:

-Go Compare, comparethenation.com.

-AS SELF:

-It's true, already both sides are going for the market approach.

Nicola Sturgeon upping the ante with a special deal.

-AS STURGEON:

-Vote independence, now with £500 cashback!

There's so many doubts that it makes it almost impossible to make a decision.

That's why you cannot let facts come into it,

because you have one fact, every fact has a counter-fact.

So you can't make a decision based on it,

that's why politics tries, is fact-averse as a science.

In the run-up to the referendum, both sides will try to win us

over with appeals to the heart, slogans, and smooth talking.

But the facts and the counter facts remain,

and for people like writer and journalist Gerry Hassan,

there are some facts you ignore at your peril.

Scotland is one of the wealthiest parts of the United Kingdom.

After London and the South East,

it is the most wealthy part of the United Kingdom.

That's leaving the oil out.

If you take the oil, it's the most wealthy part of the UK, apart from London.

This is a wealthy nation which at the same time has massive, massive poverty and inequality.

And I sometimes say to independence supporters that there's this

point that the UK is the fourth most unequal country in the rich world.

If Scotland became independent tomorrow, England - Well, sorry, rUK still remains

the fourth, and Scotland, bingo, we, we become the fifth most unequal.

Now, that is not worth fighting over.

If Scotland becomes independent, it needs to get to that dreaming of a different Scotland.

We can't just move one place down the league table.

All things being unequal, there are still many questions to be addressed.

Not least, what a future Scotland would actually look like.

What happens to the currency?

If we keep the pound, we'll still be tied to the Bank of England.

Would a Scots pound be worth less than an English pound or is

that just with London taxi drivers?

LAUGHTER

Stamps! Would it still be the Queen's head, but just looking a bit disappointed?

LAUGHTER

And the most important question of all,

who gets custody of Andy Murray?

LAUGHTER

-AS MURRAY:

-Oh God, I don't really know the answer to that question.

I haven't really thought about it. Don't bother me about it.

But there's other possibilities. You know, would, would Taggart, would Taggart come back

to our screens as a 14-part Nordic noir crime drama...in nice knitwear?

-IN A DANISH ACCENT:

-"There's been a murder."

LAUGHTER

All I'm saying is what's important is to get involved and go to the debates,

listen to the arguments, and test them on your friends and the politicians.

Get them to raise their game, get them to convince you of their side of the argument.

But for now, all we can say is, 18 months away from the biggest decision

Scotland's made in centuries.

No matter which way it goes, it feels like the beginning of something in Scotland.

Satire.

LAUGHTER

As the First Presiding Officer, David Steel, famously said...

-AS DAVID STEEL:

-"go back to your constituencies and prepare for comedy."

Thank you, good night.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

That was a great audience. The thing is, they're really up for it.

-Hi there!

-Thank you very much, that was great.

I feel a bit like a vicar.

"Very nice sermon vicar, thank you so much".

There's bits I didn't talk about. I didn't talk about John Swinney,

I'll wake up in the middle of the night and think,

"I forgot to do that thing about fracking" or "I forgot to do that statistic or this or that."

But...anyway, we did it.

It's technically possible to do political comedy in Scotland.

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd