Who Won the War?

This programme contains strong language and scenes you may find

disturbing. 20 years ago, the IRA and Loyalist

paramilitaries declared an end to the so called war that claimed the

lives of more than 3,000 people. EXPLOSION

lives of more than 3,000 people. Their historic ceasefires marked

the beginning of the road to peace that Northern Ireland enjoys today.

I've been covering the conflict for more than 40 years

and I never dreamt it would have been so utterly transformed from

and I never dreamt it would have a war zone...

EXPLOSION ...to somewhere that looks

just like any other part of the UK. I also never imagined I'd see

the remarkable sight of the Republican and Unionist

extremes ? Sinn Fein, and the Democratic Unionist Party - sharing

political power at Stormont. What's the current state

of your relationship with the Deputy First Minister?

What it always was. Very good.

No change, not an inch and no surrender.

The former IRA commander Martin McGuinness having an audience with

the Queen as Deputy First Minister, is an astonishing illustration

of just how far things have come. Nice to see you.

So how did this near miraculous transition

from war to peace come about? I've made almost 100 documentaries

on the conflict and this year I've come back to meet again many

of the people I've talked to over the years.

I'm going to show them clips of what they said then...

...and ask them how they feel about where we are today.

If they're going to do that to us, we're going to do that to you.

So you tell them to stop. When you look at that now?

It was wrong. We don't believe winning elections

and winning any amount of votes will bring freedom in Ireland.

At the end of the day, it will be the cutting edge of the IRA

which will bring freedom. Was it the cutting edge of the IRA

that in the end brought what you would describe as "freedom"?

It is often argued that the British came to the negotiating table

specifically because of an ongoing IRA campaign.

I want to talk to all sides - from paramilitaries to politicians ?

and ask them who they think were the winners and losers.

But in the end I want to reach my own conclusion.

Who really did win the war? 'Good morning, ladies and gentlemen,

this is your 11.38 service for Norwich...'

When I first began to cover Northern Ireland, the last thing on

people's minds in the rest of the United Kingdom was the escalating

conflict on the other side of the Irish Sea.

Friends in England ask why I'm still reporting the conflict.

"Isn't it all sorted since the ceasefires?" they ask.

But all sorted it is not. In some places,

normality seems a veneer to hide the powerful undercurrents

of bitterness and resentment that have never gone away.

I've seen many Loyalist bonfires over the years,

but this is without exception the biggest Loyalist bonfire that

I've ever set eyes upon. In July, during the annual marching

season, I visited the Loyalist heartland of Belfast's Shankill

Road. Giant bonfires tower towards

the sky, celebrating Protestants' ancient victory over Catholics

at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. This year, the bonfires are

bigger than ever seeming to symbolise Loyalist discontent.

There's two sides in this country. We are allowed nothing.

We get nothing and they are allowed everything.

Why are the feelings so intense and the hostilities so deep?

That's what many people back in England...

They don't understand. Because no-one can let go

of their past. Around the bonfire, burned raw

anger, given how the tables have turned with Martin McGuinness

now sharing power at Stormont. The Union is as secure as it has

ever been so what are you worried about?

No. The Union will not change

unless the majority of the people of Northern Ireland,

which is your majority, want it to. And to be fair they're breeding

like rabbits, so 50 years down the line it might change.

Well, if it changes because the majority want it to

change, that's OK, isn't it? No.

Why are there Sinn Fein posters of Sinn Fein politicians?

Sinn Fein are not the most favourite of people.

They're in government. Deputy Prime Minister - and he's

been in jail during the Troubles. Known IRA man in Londonderry.

Martin McGuinness has come a long way since I first met him

in the troubled streets of Londonderry 42 years ago.

I'd arrived here a few hours after 13 Catholics, marching for

civil rights, had been shot dead by British paratroopers on the day that

became known as "Bloody Sunday". I remember two days after Bloody

Sunday or thereabouts standing here, or perhaps it was over by those

railings, and I was talking to John Hume from the SDLP, the Social

Democratic Labour Party, who were the moderate non-violent Catholic

politicians. And I remember John Hume saying to me,

the person you want to watch is that young man over there.

His name is Martin McGuinness. John Hume was right

and his words were prophetic. When did you join the IRA?

I joined the IRA in 1970. Did your mother know that

you'd joined the IRA? No, not initially, she didn't know.

She... You didn't tell her, you didn't tell

her? Oh no, I absolutely didn't tell her.

I didn't tell either of my parents. But my mother found, I think it was

a black beret or something like that, in the house, and immediately

traumatised her, I think, yeah. Did your mother produce the beret

and say, "What's this, Martin?" Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. She didn't hit me with it

or anything like that. Or if there were gloves, there was

no smack across the face with the gloves.

No, I think that it was a moment in time and she was obviously annoyed

at the prospect that all of our lives were changing and maybe

mine's more dramatically than anybody else's.

Dramatic change is part of Ireland's tortured history.

After partition in 1921, Northern Ireland was established

as a Protestant state for a Protestant people - with a

Protestant parliament at Stormont. Catholics were second-class

citizens ? victims of blatant discrimination.

On Bloody Sunday they were marching to demand equal rights and

an end to internment without trial. Do not fire back for the moment

until you identify a target... 20 years on,

I interviewed one of those soldiers who wished to remain anonymous.

It changed from an ordinary scoop-up arrest operation to hey,

someone's trying to kill me. You looked for targets.

Started identifying them and started dropping them.

Started dropping them? Shooting them.

Do you stand by what you told me then?

Oh, yes. 100 per cent.

If I had to do the same thing again, I would do it.

No regrets? No regrets.

Martin McGuiness and his colleagues would say you

have blood on your hands - the blood of innocent civilians.

I've got blood on my hands, yes, but not of innocent civilians.

What I did, I did correctly. Catholics saw Bloody Sunday

as a massacre of the innocents. 40 years later,

Lord Saville who'd investigated the killings, broadly agreed, accusing

some of the soldiers of fabricating accounts to justify their actions.

some of the soldiers of fabricating Are you one of those soldiers?

No way. I told the truth

as I seen it the information to prove his point.

Did you believe that you were fighting a war?

Yes. were fighting a war?

When people are getting killed around you you're fighting a war.

The wound of Bloody Sunday still open ? despite the

government's attempt to heal it. The government is ultimately

responsible for the conduct of the armed forces and for that, on behalf

of our government, indeed on behalf of our country, I am deeply sorry.

Whereas Republicans see the Saville Inquiry as delivering

justice, many Loyalists see it as a sop to Sinn Fein.

Despite the ongoing sensitivities, I've always regarded Bloody Sunday

as the seminal event that gave the conflict its impetus.

That was the moment when the IRA's real "war" began.

Demands for civil rights were now drowned out by the sound of guns

and bombs... EXPLOSION

...the beginning of a concerted military campaign to

end British involvement in the North and unify Ireland.

Many young people who hadn't previously contemplated being

involved in the IRA, then decided that they would take

that very dramatic step. The high moral ground went

in some people's eyes to the IRA and Sinn Fein as a result

of what happened on Bloody Sunday. They were given a credibility,

and a standing within the community which they used to

great effect, and are still using, and that directly resulted from

the trauma of the all those dead bodies in the streets in Derry.

Watch the step. Today, Catholics enjoy equal rights

with Protestants and Stormont is no longer

the secure citadel of Unionism. Here we are.

There's the statue of Carson, the symbol of Protestant Unionist

resistance. What that statue says to me

is Ulster will fight. Ulster will be right, no surrender.

What would he think if he knew you were here now and what you were?

It really doesn't remotely concern me what he would think.

What concerns me is what present-day Uionist leaders think.

They are the people that I have to work with.

According to a Gallup Poll we've commissioned for this programme...

Nearly 30 years ago, I chaired a studio discussion in which

Peter Robinson, now First Minister, accused the then government

of giving in to the IRA. The reward is given to terrorist

and the reward is given to the boycotter.

Hasn't the reward today been given to the so-called terrorist with

the former IRA leader Martin McGuiness now being your Deputy?

Isn't that their reward? I think the distinction between the

two is that Martin McGuiness and Sinn Fein have a mandate from the

Nationalist Republican community. There's a difference

between giving somebody a position in the politics of Northern Ireland

because they have a mandate, and giving somebody a role in

the politics for Northern Ireland because they threaten violence or

actually carry out violence. The Queen has made an extraordinary,

if more regal, journey too - inviting the Deputy First Minister

to a banquet at Windsor Castle. Neither of us would ever have

anticipated Martin McGuiness dining with the Queen, would we?

No, I think that the men in white coats would've taken both of us

away. There is a much greater maturity

about our acceptance of the identity and what's important to each

of the sections of our community. And that's as much as a case

for myself as it is for Martin McGuinness.

Queen Elizabeth has many reasons not to meet with me.

I have many reasons not to meet with her.

But as Deputy First Minister I thought it was important to take

the opportunity through her to reach out the hand of friendship to

the Unionist people of the North. But the unlikely love affair

between Sinn Fein and the British monarchy has only fuelled Loyalist

fears that the Union with Britain is being undermined.

Like the IRA, Loyalist paramilitaries resorted to

violence to keep the Union secure. In 1972, Jackie McDonald joined the

paramilitary Ulster Defence Association.

Why did you and so many other young Loyalists join the UDA at the time?

Well, there was so much going on and it was building up

and building up and when I joined, it wasn't long after Bloody Friday.

Bloody Friday was the day in July 1972, when the IRA planted 23 bombs

in the heart of Belfast. Nine people died and 130 were

injured. Like Bloody Sunday for the IRA,

Bloody Friday was a powerful recruiting agent

for loyalist paramilitaries. Some of my best friends are killers

and they took the fight to the Republicans to show that the

IRA wasn't this invincible army and it was to terrorise the terrorist.

But it wasn't just republicans who were targeted.

Ordinary, innocent Catholics were targeted and murdered by...

Well, like, yes, and that happened both ways, Peter.

..by loyalists. Yep.

But it happened both ways. I just want to show you

a clip of what you told me when I interviewed you last time.

Billy Hutchinson is a former member of the paramilitary Ulster Volunteer

Force and now leads the loyalist Progressive Unionist Party.

He was sentenced to life for murder committed in 1974.

At this junction at 7:30 one morning the UVF drove

by and shot dead two young Catholics.

Do you regret the murder of those two young men?

No, I don't have any regrets for anything I have done.

I believe that I was a part of a war and that war had to be fought.

What do you think when you see that now?

I regret every life that was taken and everybody who was injured

during the conflict. I suppose in many ways I wish that

the conflict had never happened but it did.

Many young men were driven by that notion that the IRA had to

be stopped and that the British government weren't going to do it.

I remember watching loyalist paramilitaries emerge

from the shadows in the early 1970s as the IRA campaign intensified.

Have you any idea who these people are?

No. Are you frightened?

I am not indeed. I'm glad to see them round here.

Why? Because I am.

I think it's about time our ones started to do something.

It was a message to the IRA if you're going to do that to us,

we're going to do this to you. So you tell them to stop.

And you look at that now?

It was wrong. Killing innocent Catholics?

Killing anybody. Looking back there was

a different way of doing things. Violence only gets you so far.

The provisional IRA realised that and they turned to the ballot box,

turned to democracy. and they turned to the ballot box,

And it's taken them a long way. Adams, Gerry, Sinn

Fein 15,072 votes. Adams, Gerry, Sinn

elected to the Irish parliament. Being in government North and South

is no Being in government North and South

for republicans. They see it

as a step to achieving Sinn Fein's ultimate goal of a united Ireland.

Sinn Fein is now the largest party in terms

of votes on the island of Ireland. We're the biggest party

on the Ireland of Ireland. But it's what we do with that.

This is the grave of Bobby Sands, the man from whom Sinn Fein's

electoral success initially stemmed. Bobby Sands died after 66 days

on hunger strike in the H Blocks of the Maze prison and crucially, after

he had become a Westminster MP. Indirectly Bobby Sands gave the IRA

its long term strategy of the Armalite and Ballot Box.

The government insists that the men in these cells are common criminals

sentenced by due process of law. The prisoners say they're

prisoners of war. To both sides the issue

at stake is one of principle. That's the real reason for

the conflict here in the H blocks. Nine more republican hunger strikers

followed Bobby Sands to their graves.

The political consequences were seismic.

I'm now sitting on the actual bed where the hunger striker Bobby Sands

died in May 1981. I never thought Bobby Sands

would go through with it. It was no ordinary death and Sands

was no ordinary prisoner, no ordinary man because he was

an elected member of parliament. The sheer scale

of Sands' victory stunned Margaret Thatcher's government.

His 30,000 votes gave the lie to the Prime Minister's scathing

dismissal of IRA prisoners. There can no question

of political status for someone who is serving a sentence for crime.

Crime is crime, is crime, is crime. It is not political, it is crime.

Mrs Thatcher never really understood what the problem was.

James Prior, never Mrs Thatcher's darling at the best of times,

was exiled to Northern Ireland to end the hunger strikes.

Did you regard the IRA prisoners as terrorists?

That's a very difficult question to answer.

I obviously felt they were close to terrorism, particularly when they

tried to kill me, but there was a deeper side to it as well as,

as it were, a terrorist side. By standing firm

and allowing the hunger strikers to die, Mrs Thatcher inadvertently

turned them into martyrs. With the benefit of hindsight,

I wondered whether Lord Prior believed her intransigence affected

the final outcome of the conflict. Who won the war?

I know we didn't win it, but I'm not certain the other side won it.

As time went on, it became possible for both sides to

get into a position where it was easier to make peace.

Than make war? Than make war.

The hunger strikes and Bobby Sands' election to Westminster were

the watershed that indicated the ballot box might be as powerful

a weapon as the armalite. The evidence that there was strong

support for the prisoners brought about a huge discussion within

republicanism about what we would do in the context of the assembly

elections which would take place the following year, in 1982.

The first elections that I ever stood for.

I realised it was only through building Sinn Fein up to be

a major positive political force that we would make progress.

We don't believe winning elections will bring freedom in Ireland, it

will be the cutting edge of the IRA that will bring freedom.

Was it the cutting edge of the IRA that in the end brought what you

would describe as freedom? It is often argued that the British

came to the negotiating table specifically

because of what was happening in regard to an ongoing IRA campaign.

But I've always been very conscious that the continuing efforts that we

made to build Sinn Fein up as a political party had to be designed

towards bringing about a process of negotiations which would deal with

the issues that lay at the heart of the conflict.

The Armalite and Ballot Box strategy propelled the IRA and Sinn Fein

through the 1980s ? with both wings fervently committed to Irish unity.

The person elected to serve for the said constituency is Gerard Adams.

Gerry Adams was a potent illustration that Sinn Fein's

strategy was working when he was elected to Westminster in 1983, just

two years after the hunger strikes. It was an auspicious beginning to

Sinn Fein's ambition of becoming the dominant political force.

North and South. politics on the whole island

of Ireland and gave the type of emotional impetus to Sinn Fein for

their planned to political progress. 30 years on, Sinn Fein is now a

mainstream political party, proud of its Irish identity - fostering Irish

culture across all walks of life. Coming back to Belfast I really get

the sense that nationalists and republicans are comfortable

in their own skins. You've only got to look

around to realise how much Irish culture and language have become

part of the fabric of life. Whether or not things have changed

for the people, that they are no longer being

treated as second class citizens. But not all republicans sing

Sinn Fein's praises. Long-time no see, come in.

Come in. It has been a long time, hasn't it?

It has. Gerard Hodgins was the last IRA

prisoner to go on hunger strike. He's now totally disillusioned

with the Sinn Fein leadership. Just behind the tower block

of the City hospital you can just make out Stormont which gives me

the opportunity if I'm angry with them and many times I come out

and shake my fist at them and say get on with it and do something.

But the people that, you know, you supported and fought for over all

those years are now in Stormont. I know.

It's a crazy situation. We set out to be revolutionaries,

to overthrow the state. Now they're up being caretakers

of the state. It's a crazy way for things to turn.

But you shake your fist at...? Aye, in a wee bit of anger,

a wee bit of rage, you know? Three thousand plus people dead was

a hell of a price to pay just to become a part of the state you were

supposedly trying to overthrow. You know,

we could have become a part of that state a long, long time ago.

It's not just some republicans who are dismissive of the political

establishment at Stormont. Most loyalists feel alienated too.

Bonfires, flags and parades are the symbols of

a British identity loyalists believe Sinn Fein is out to destroy.

This is loyalism. Raw loyalism.

Sinn Fein seem to be dictating what exactly happens and what doesn't.

Part of the problem for loyalism is democracy hasn't worked the same.

Working class unionist or loyalists in Northern Ireland actually feel

that, you know, they haven't gained anything from the peace process.

You will see educational underachievement,

you'll see poverty, you'll see deprivation, you'll see all of those

things, but as well as that you'll see people whose culture's been

trailed, you know, away from them. Grass roots protestants once felt

they had an iconic, charismatic champion ? who for years

articulated their anger and fears. Let it go out that we are cool,

cold determined loyalists who will never surrender.

Extreme loyalism and unionism have always been synonymous with

the late Reverend Ian Paisley, founder and former leader of

the DUP who played on the ancient fears of the IRA and Popery.

Romanism has controlled for many centuries and Romanism has

bred poverty and ignorance and priest craft and superstition.

bred poverty and ignorance Thank God for the liberty

of the gospel. Dr Paisley became

the thunderous champion of thousands Dr Paisley became

of working class protestants and loyalist paramilitaries

who saw every political move by the British in the direction of Dublin

as a plot to destroy the union. We say never, never, never, never.

From small beginnings, Ian Paisley built up the DUP to

become the dominant unionist party - increasingly with the support

of the middle classes, leaving many loyalists out in the cold.

Until they address that and balance that,

there will be serious problems. Political parties with connections

to loyalist paramilitaries have tried to make electoral inroads ?

learning lessons from the IRA and Sinn Fein ? but with mixed fortunes.

It is very hard for us to get political support because we are

seen to be connected to the UVF and we are seen as ex-prisoners.

The IRA made this journey from a gunman on the street,

wee Paddy on the border with this AK47, to being joint Prime Minister

of Northern Ireland. If the Provos

couldn't have made that journey from the bottom to

the top, what would have happened? They'd still be killing people.

While Sinn Fein prospered at the Ballot Box,

the IRA's Armalite strategy became increasingly audacious.

In 1984, it struck at the heart of the British government, bombing

the Grand Hotel in Brighton. The Industry Secretary,

Norman Tebbit, narrowly survived. His wife Margaret was paralysed

for life. I have no sympathy

for those who declared the war. But having said all that,

one way or another, a ceasefire was achieved and to that extent, it was

a price that was worth paying. The Brighton Bomb was

a major turning point in the war. Such a sophisticated attack prompted

the government to recognise an uncomfortable truth - that

the British could not inflict a military defeat on the IRA.

I wondered if Lord Tebbit thought that affected the final outcome.

Who won the war? I don't think this was

a war that was won. It was a war which ended in a truce.

By the end of the 1980s, both the British and

the IRA realised that an outright military victory was impossible.

Both sides realised that the only way to break

the deadlock was to talk. But the precedent

for the government talking to terrorists was not encouraging.

The first face to face meeting at government level was held way back

in 1972 at a Minister's house in London's fashionable Cheyne Walk.

The young Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams joined the then IRA

Chief of Staff at the negotiating table.

All were IRA? Yes, not Sinn Fein but IRA.

All of them? Yes.

Including Martin McGuinness? Yes.

Including Gerry Adams? Well, all of them.

Well, I'm very clear on this and, you know, I have consistently denied

membership of the IRA, although I've never dissociated myself from the

IRA. But nobody believes it, Mr Adams.

Well that's, that's fair enough. That's, that's a matter for them.

When Unionists found out the meeting had taken place behind their backs,

they were deeply suspicious. There was a feeling of betrayal,

and very much, I think, igniting a feeling within

the Unionist community that they were on their own.

The meeting was disastrous. Republicans demanded declaration

of a British intent to withdraw by 1975.

Neither side was prepared to negotiate.

Was it na?ve? What, what it lacked was a strategy.

When I reflect on that event I rapidly come to the conclusion that

the British government were never going to, in a bilateral way,

negotiate the future of this part of Ireland with Republicans to

the exclusion of all others. It would be another two decades

before the British met Martin McGuinness again.

And it was that meeting that was to lead to the historic IRA ceasefire

of 1994. The IRA put out feelers

in response to coded overtures from the British, after John Major

had become Prime Minister. Why did you make Northern Ireland

such a priority? People were killing one another.

If that had happened in Surrey or Sussex, or any part

of the mainland, nobody would have tolerated it for a moment.

It seemed to me to be equally intolerable in Northern Ireland.

Talking to terrorists was anathema to Conservatives, but John Major

reluctantly accepted the only way forward was to engage with the IRA

and Loyalist paramilitaries. EXPLOSION

Three days before secret talks with MI5 were due to take place, the IRA

bombed Warrington, killing two little children.

Incredibly, the meeting went ahead - although John Major himself was

not aware of it at the time. If the implication from

not aware of it at the time. that we should talk with Mr Adams

and the Provisional IRA, I can only say to the honourable gentleman that

would turn my stomach over and that of most people in this House

and we will not do it. The angry part of me said,

'I would never sit down'. The pragmatic part of me

of course would have done so had I thought there was going to be an

of course would have done so had I would carry the process forward.

of course would have done so had I The government's chief point of

contact to establish whether the IRA The government's chief point of

was seriously interested in calling a ceasefire was Martin McGuinness.

Did you believe Martin McGuinness was a member of the IRA's Army

Council? Yes, I did.

If he couldn't deliver the IRA, then there would have been

no point in talking to him. Were you at the time

of the negotiations on the IRA's Army Council?

No. But I was obviously someone who was

trusted by the IRA leadership, and...

Weren't you part of it? If you remember...

No, I wasn't part of it at the time. For me anyway,

it's irrelevant what status the British government thought I had

in regard to negotiations. It was clear that because there was

a military stalemate And a political stalemate also, to

us, as the leadership of Irish Republicanism, somebody had to break

the vicious cycle of conflict. On the 31st of August 1994, the IRA

declared its historic ceasefire, ending a campaign that had resulted

in the deaths of 1,800 people. It was probably one

of the most challenging things I've ever been involved in in my life,

but it was hugely important. In all sincerity, we offer, to

the loved ones of all innocent victims of the last

25 years, abject and true remorse. Seven weeks later,

on the 13th October, Loyalist paramilitaries declared

an equally historic ceasefire. Their campaign had been responsible

for nearly 1,000 deaths. Whenever we got to

a ceasefire stage it opened up a whole new vista and we could all

see the world in a different way. It gave a great boost to the belief

in many people's minds that there was a deal that could be done.

Many doubted it, but then there was a glimmer of hope.

The ceasefires laid the foundations for talks, now involving the Irish

government, but John Major was only able to take them so far.

It was left to his successor, Tony Blair, to finish

the task three years later. From the beginning, Northern Ireland

was something I wanted to put at the centre of what we did.

He knew from the outset he would have to

entice Unionists into negotiations. It's always important to

try to talk, and then what matters is what you say.

The new Prime Minister embarked on a bold charm offensive.

The Prime Minister would like to speak to you.

Thank you very much indeed. My agenda is not a United Ireland.

Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom as long

as the majority here wish. Moderate Unionists accepted

Mr Blair's offer. Reluctantly,

they accepted Republicans would need to be at the table too.

The snag is that in order to bring them in, you had to bring in the

people they regarded as the leaders who are not such nice people to have

there but the overall objective of including people was right.

At Good Friday the Republican movement, Sinn Fein, embraced

Unionism, embraced Loyalism. That was the key to Good Friday,

wasn't it? That is of course one

of the key differences and we developed a working relationship

and we resolved problems. In a momentous step for a

British Prime Minister, Tony Blair invited Gerry Adams

and Martin McGuinness to take part in inclusive, face to face talks.

You've got to be prepared at a certain point to say I'm going

to risk everything for peace. Did you believe that

Martin McGuinness was on the IRA's Army Council?

I always thought the IRA and Sinn Fein as two sides to the same

coin, if I'm honest about it. So the answer is yes?

As far as I was concerned, I was talking to the Republican movement

when I was talking to them. If I hadn't met Adams

and McGuinness, if I hadn't been able to sit in front of them and see

them and you know feel what type of people they were and where they were

coming from, if I hadn't been able to have that personal engagement, I

don't think we could ever have put this together.

An historic agreement for peace in Northern Ireland has been reached

within the past few minutes. After much burning of midnight oil,

a settlement was reached. APPLAUSE

The Good Friday Agreement in 1998 paved the road from war to peace.

But first the DUP had to be coaxed into the tent.

Given Ian Paisley's track record, the omens did not look good.

Ulster is not for sale. For four decades,

Ian Paisley was known as Dr No. But in a wondrous turnaround,

Dr No was transformed into Dr Yes ? becoming First Minister

and unbelievably sharing power with his sworn enemy, Martin McGuinness.

If you had told me some time ago that I'd be standing here

to take this office, I would have been totally unbelieving.

How do you view the journey that Ian Paisley made?

I was struck when Ian came out of hospital after his illness, that

he had this sense and expressed it to me that he'd been through a

near death experience, he'd survived and it should be for a purpose.

And if the purpose was peace and that was God's will as it were,

then he should do that. When it came to a point where he

could see himself as the prime person in political life in the

North of Ireland... The Prime Minister?

...well, essentially that, he couldn't, he couldn't refuse.

Never, never, never became yes, please and quick.

People say it's terrible you've left the place in charge of the extremes.

But the interesting thing about extremes is once they're

in power, it's very difficult to be extreme when you're worrying

about water rates and education - it's more difficult to be extreme

than when you're waving a gun. In 2007, Ian Paisley and

Martin McGuinness joined forces as First and Deputy First Minister

- the triumph of the extremes at the expense of the moderates.

Two men who've taken a leap of faith out of the past and into the future.

SDLP leader John Hume and Ulster Unionist leader, David Trimble,

were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for their efforts as peacemakers.

But their respective parties were the greatest political casualties

of the war. Is it hurtful?

Oh very much, very much when you look at what we

gave up, that we sacrificed to get peace, to get an end to killing.

I find it hurtful, let's put it that way.

Do you feel that you've been marginalised and eclipsed

by the DUP? It could've been better.

It may very well be. Maybe there were misjudgements that I made,

there were misjudgements the SDLP made. But I'm not going to say it

wasn't worth it. Seeing Sinn Fein in power

at Stormont brings home to me an unpalatable truth.

It's there because voters put it there - the

ultimate triumph of the Ballot Box. But it was the Armalite that paved

the way by breaking the mould of the Unionist state.

Violence paid, didn't it? Isn't that one of the lessons

however unpalatable that may be... Well, I mean...

Isn't that a fact? You use the term violence; it's a

very pejorative term. Well, it's about killing people.

Yeah. Injuring people.

That's what violence is. That's

the campaign resulted in. Yes, that's what the war resulted

in. It would've been better that there was no war.

But, you show me anywhere in the world where people have won either

a modicum of decency and rights, or indeed in terms of colonial wars,

won independence, that it didn't happen after bloodletting.

What did Loyalist violence achieve? It prevented a united Ireland.

Why do you say that? Because we don't have one.

Violence was not the only thing but it was one of the things that

actually prevented it. I think violence probably does work.

It may not work quickly and it may not be seen to be working

quickly, but in the long run one has to look back

and say, "Yes, it ? it did work". What's the current state

of your relationship with the deputy First Minister?

No change, not an inch and no surrender.

Whenever Ian Paisley and I went into government together Ian said to

me, "You know, Martin, we can rule ourselves.

We don't need these people coming over from England, telling us what

to do", and for me, that was common ground that we could all stand on.

Don't be nervous about the wasp. Martin McGuinness has potentially

more dangerous things to worry about ? not least small groups

of armed republican dissidents, dismissive of the peace

and determined to carry on the war. Peace has arrived.

There are still people who are opposed to it, and they're small and

they're unrepresentative, and they have no prospect of reversing the

important change that has happened. We gather today to remember our true

friend and comrade Brendan Hughes. Disaffected republicans

believe Sinn Fein has abandoned its Holy Grail of a united Ireland.

Their leaders dressed up in white ties and went to Buckingham Palace

to have dinner with the British Queen, whose name is on every single

charge sheet brought against us which consigned us to the prisons.

Who won the war? The British.

We lost. We just didn't get our

United Ireland and now we are pretending it wasn't about freedom

that it was really about equality. The IRA are too clever to tell

the full truth of what was actually negotiated

and Unionists are just too stupid to recognise the enormity of what

they have achieved in bringing the IRA to a negotiated settlement

which accepts the six county state. Our position is clear and it

will never, never never change. Don't go my friends.

We will lead you to the Republic. Do you believe that one day

there will be a United Ireland? I've never been as convinced

of anything in my life that at some stage in the future there

will be a reunified Ireland. Absolutely.

The IRA has not achieved that, isn't that why you republicans and former

IRA volunteers are now rewriting history by claiming that the IRA was

fighting for equality which you've achieved and that's a substitute for

fighting for the IRA's real goal which is the reunification

of Ireland which you haven't got? The IRA were fighting to bring

about the equality, yes, but also the reunification of Ireland.

I'm still fighting for that, but I'm fighting for that politically.

This is a sight I thought I would never see.

Little boys in front of Belfast City Hall playing the

Irish National game of Hurling. It's another sign that Irish culture

and identity are now part of what was once a Unionist state.

Who won the war? Well the struggle isn't over.

I believe we will get a united Ireland.

I believe it has to be a united Ireland in

which Unionism feels secure. I'm afraid Gerry's day is over.

He's not going to get his united Ireland.

It's just not going to happen. Unquestionably we have come out with

our objectives intact but that isn't always

the way it is seen on the ground. Unionists are capable

of extracting defeat from the jaws of victory, and nationalists and

republicans are capable of gaining victory from the jaws of defeat.

For years Belfast City Hall was the bastion of Unionism.

In 1912 nearly half a million Protestants signed

a covenant there in which they swore to maintain the Union.

And for years the Union flag flew above on just

about every day of the year. But all that has changed too.

The flag can only be flown on designated days

and that's a bone of huge contention within the Protestant,

Unionist and loyalist community. Since that decision was taken

in 2012, there've been ongoing street protests.

There are also protests on a different cultural issue.

Parades. The flashpoint is a volatile

interface in north Belfast where loyalists have been protesting

nightly for more than a year. They're angry

at restrictions placed on where they can march on the 12th of July.

Nearby Catholic residents say the parade is triumphalist

and sectarian. When I started covering

the conflict 42 years ago were top dogs.

They're no longer top dogs and they feel that.

For the past two years there've been violent riots on the day

the march was due to take place. This year tensions were running

high because restrictions had been placed on the march once again.

The more they attack our heritage and traditions,

the stronger our response will be. Let them home.

The war has changed in how it's fought but it's still

a war and still going on. The IRA had a strategy,

they wanted the Brits out. Now unfortunately the Brits that

they talk about is me, is not the British apparatus because, you know,

that has all been taken away, but we're still here and that's

that has all been taken away, but still have the republican

engaging in a cultural war and trying to, you know, take away

what vestige of British-ness is left, and that includes us.

You need to grow a set. You need to grow a set of

Nothing... but you need to tell

Nothing... that he sold us out.

He has sold us out. We've been sold down the river.

There is real bitterness and resentment in significant

sections of the loyalist community. Can you understand that?

Oh, I do understand it. On many occasions you can see that

there has been a pandering to Sinn Fein.

The reality, of course, is that the union is safe

but there isn't the same degree of understanding of the Protestant

Unionist and loyalist position. Whether it's on flags,

whether it's on parades or whether it's on other issues of identity.

whether it's on parades or whether This parade today reminds me of

the parades I watched in the early 1970s but with one big difference.

The parades I saw then were by Catholics, nationalists

and republicans who were protesting about what they regarded as their

status as second class citizens. The irony is that

the loyalists who are marching today, their bands, their supporters

now regard themselves as second class citizens

now regard themselves a similarity but a huge difference.

Things seem to have gone full circle.

In the end this year's parade passed off without incident,

the welcome fruit of protracted negotiations behind the scenes.

I hope there will be a recognition that politics must be

seen to work to ensure that those who would advocate violence don't

get any basis upon which they can argue that case and articulate it to

the wider community. This year's agreement over

the sensitive parade is an encouraging sign that dialogue

is the key to peace - just as dialogue produced the ceasefires

and brought the conflict to an end. Who won the war?

No one won the war. The British and the Unionists were

never going to be bombed out of the United Kingdom, and we were

never going to be able by military force to destroy the Republicans.

So no one won. On

the other hand I honestly do believe that everyone has won the peace.

It's been an exemplary journey in many ways and when one looks at

other parts of the world where the conflict seems irresolvable, one can

realise that it is possible to bring together those who seem implacably

opposed to one another for ideological reasons. And it is

a gift of human nature that that is possible.

But the price for everyone - young and old - has been impossibly high.

Try and get up quicker. Forty years ago I made a film about

Divis flats here in west Belfast. That's all that's left

of the flats today. It used to be a death trap

for the British army who used Divis as a lookout post.

I remember interviewing a group of children who lived there.

The memory of one has always haunted me.

His name was Sean. He had the initials IRA tattooed

on his knuckles. Sean, how do you get

on with the soldiers? Don't like them.

Never will like them. When I grow up I'm going

to fight against them. And I often wondered what happened

to Sean because of what his aspirations were.

This year I finally tracked him down.

He's now 52. Good to see you.

It's been a long time. 40 years.

You haven't changed a bit Peter. Thirteen years after I interviewed

Sean, he was sentenced to life for the murder of a British soldier.

This is a clip in which I interviewed you all those years ago.

I'm going to fight for my country. And die for it.

If I were to interview some children about the same age as you were when

I interviewed you 40 years ago and one of those children said to me now

that he wanted to fight and die for Ireland, what would you say to him?

I would advise him to forget it, because I know a lot

of people who died, and they thought they were fighting

and dying for their country, but it never worked out that way.

It never worked out. What did IRA violence achieve

in their so-called war? They're running Stormont.

But there's no united Ireland? No, but we'll get there.

I'm sure we will. Why are you so confident?

I've every faith in Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.

Total faith in them. The tragedy is that generations

of children have been victims of a conflict by

which they were conditioned ? some to become killers in the name

of causes that fuelled the war. So what's my conclusion?

Who really did win the war? Viewed through the prism

of the present, it's clear that the British and

the Unionists won because the union is secure and the IRA is no more.

But nobody knows what the future may hold.

The unimaginable has already happened with Martin McGuinness up

there at Stormont as deputy first minister and dining

at Windsor Castle with the Queen. I wouldn't be surprised if

at some stage in the long years ahead a united Ireland did emerge.

But the danger is that people may forget

what we've all been through - a past that the young know little

about. The memories of that past may help ensure that we

never go through it again.