Episode 3 Dragons' Den

Tonight, on Dragons' Den...

I could do all of this myself.

-Yeah.

-So I don't need you, then?

This is not unique.

You're in for a disaster.

I think this is right up your alley.

Is it cos I do that?

SHE LAUGHS

I think you have done a great job.

So I'm going to make you an offer.

I'll make you an offer.

I'm also going to make you an offer.

Give me an answer.

Welcome to Dragons' Den.

The Dragons have built empires by spotting

great business opportunities,

but here, only the entrepreneurs

who can offer big returns will get a vital cash investment.

The rest will walk away with nothing.

First to face the fire of the Dragons

is French entrepreneur Sylvain Preumont...

..who believes he has a mini product with maximum potential.

So, the first reaction most people have is they find it amazing.

They find it so surprising.

They have a feeling of, "Hey, the future is now."

But will the Dragons see a future in his business idea?

Is that me?

No, that's him.

It's him.

Hi, Dragons. My name is Sylvain Preumont.

I'm here today to offer you 15% of my company in return for £80,000.

Mini You is the ultimate selfie and you know how people

love selfies these days.

So, how does this work?

Well, people come in our 3-D scanning booths, they get scanned,

they get taken 60 pictures, each and every angle, all at once,

and then our technology analysed those pictures,

stitched them together for 3-D printing.

We can do it in chocolate, metal, we call it scandle,

which is basically a candle.

We have done that for years.

We have partnered with Selfridges,

Harvey Nichols and also with Le Bon Marche in Paris

and with your investment, what I want to do is to spin off

that business from my current company into a dedicated company.

So, I will definitely welcome your questions, but before that,

I wanted to show you what we're talking about more closely.

An intriguing pitch from London-based Sylvain Preumont...

You get one.

..who wants a sizeable £80,000 investment to help launch a

new miniature model business. In return, he's offering a 15% stake.

-Chocolate?

-Yes, absolutely.

No, don't tell me. Scandle?

Online innovator Nick Jenkins may have made his fortune

in the personalised greeting cards business,

but will he see similar potential in Sylvain's statue selfies?

What kind of a person wants a statue of themselves?

Because I don't want a statue of myself.

I mean, God, you know, I don't even like having my photograph taken,

let alone a statue.

That would be an ugly thing to have on my desk.

I mean, I'd be mortified if anyone gave me a statue.

Yeah, but some people might want that of you.

The market of people who want a statue of me is small.

Take that from me.

I'm concerned about the market.

A lot of people would have maybe the same reaction as yourself.

"Oh, I don't want to see myself like that."

But a lot of people think the exact opposite.

"I want that, that's cool, that's different, that's new."

We've seen people returning and doing another one and we have been

successfully producing almost 2,000 of them, selling for £150.

People come and do that for special events in life,

when they are, maybe, pregnant

because they want to remember what they were at that moment.

OK. This is very clever, by the way.

-It is.

-Thank you.

-I mean, I'm very impressed with the printing of it.

The colour, less so. But the actual accuracy is fantastic.

The entrepreneur believes there's a demand for his lifelike miniatures.

Now, Touker Suleyman wants to understand

how his 3-D printing business works.

-Who owns the scanner?

-Me.

-You own the scanner?

-Well, the company, yeah.

-The company.

Whoever invests, does the scanner come into it

-or that's a separate business?

-No, of course.

When I will spin off and create that new company,

I will put in everything I have.

When you say "spin off", I mean, you have another company as well?

Yeah, at the moment, I make the logo you see here

is the company I'm running for, like, the last three years,

selling 3-D printers.

What's the turnover of that company?

That company, I mean, I'm not into offering that company.

No, but if I'm investing in you, I just want to know.

It's not that big.

It has a physical store and it has a website selling 3-D printers.

Related to Mini You would be put in there...

You're not answering my question.

I'm sorry, but this is bizarre.

Really?

-You've got a company that has a printing business...

-Yes.

-..for 3-D.

You're selling the printing capability to do this.

You're offering us nothing because, basically,

I could go to your company tomorrow, buy the printer,

hire somebody for £40,000 and own 100% of the company.

But the printer that you need to do THIS is not one of those

that I sell.

The printer you need to do this costs £70,000.

-Yeah.

-It's a different type of thing.

Yeah, but you're asking me for 80,000 for 15%.

-Of a business...

-Of a business that doesn't yet exist.

So I could still buy the printer myself.

I could do all of this myself.

Yeah, technically.

Yeah, that's great, but thanks for telling me. So I don't need you, then, now.

The revelation that anyone can own the 3-D technology manufacturing

Sylvain's models raises a red flag in the Den.

He's already been reluctant to answer a question

about the turnover of his printing company.

Now, Deborah Meaden wants transparency on the model business

he's here to pitch.

Can I just understand the profile of your sales.

So, you've had three years.

-Yes.

-And what was your profit?

The problem is it's not easy for me to give you an answer for that

because, as you understand, it was not a separate business,

it was part of an existing business, so...

Yeah, but for you to... When you separate a business out,

you've got to be able to say that is the value of the business

-that I am separating out.

-OK.

That's all I'm asking you.

This is not a trick question.

It's not even... Well, it shouldn't be a difficult question.

I have generated in the past three years, that's your question?

Um, let's say...

..anywhere between £50,000 and £100,000.

I'm not, I'm not...

You can't throw your arms in the air and say...

-No, sorry...

-"..well, maybe between

"£50,000 and £100,000." Give me an answer.

The best guess I can give you is probably 50,000 over the past.

£50,000 over three years or £50,000 a year?

-Over the three years...

-So, 15,000, 16,000 a year?

To be fair, I don't want to...

That was incredibly painful.

-Sorry about that.

-What you're basically saying is it generates

-£15,000 to £16,000 profit a year?

-Yeah.

Sylvain's on a collision course with Deborah Meaden over how turnover is

split between sales of his scanning business

and sales of his 3-D models.

There's nothing that exasperates the Dragons more

than an entrepreneur who is unclear about what

he's bringing to the table.

But now there's some clarity on the numbers,

can Sarah Willingham find a moneymaking opportunity in Mini You?

So you own scanner, you don't own the printer,

you don't own any technology.

You are selling the idea of us to invest in a business which has a

relationship with Selfridges, Harvey Nicks and Le Bon Marche?

That's it currently?

Yeah. Plus all the... Yeah.

Is that worth the additional £500,000

that you've put on the valuation?

Um, that's what I believe.

But what I think and the reason why I'm here today is because with your

expertise, your network, your marketing,

and my technical expertise and experience, together,

that makes something that works.

But, Sylvain, I think you've just explained why WE add

half a million pounds worth of value.

I'm not entirely sure why YOU add half a million pounds

worth of value, because you've just explained exactly what this

business needs, which is with us, pointing to one of us,

-with our expertise...

-Yeah, uh-huh.

..and our marketing and our exposure

and all the things we can bring.

So, what I do is I make that happen.

You make what happen? You get our money?

-Yeah, you...

-The added value is coming from THIS side of the room,

not THAT side of the room.

So I'm really sorry, Sylvain, but I won't be investing, I'm out.

Summary dismissal from a damning Deborah Meaden.

Will the rest of the Den give a deal equally short shrift?

I don't believe that selling portraits of yourself

on 3-D printing is a business that I think warrants two people.

If you want to make this into a larger scale,

I don't think it's viable.

For that reason, I'm out.

I'm going to tell you where I am, very quickly.

I can't see, I can't get past where the real value in the business lies.

So, I'm out.

Sarah Willingham joins Touker Suleyman in walking away

from an investment.

Will gifting supremo, Nick Jenkins,

be any more willing to put his money into Sylvain's models?

With a lot of personalised things, it can all be done over the internet

because we have photographs.

We have photographs that contain memories

and it's all about memories.

And with the 3-D scanning thing, it's just about me.

And I have a real issue with the size of the market

because it strips away the most important thing about

personalised goods, which is it's about

bringing back memories and you can't recreate that in a scanning booth.

So, I'm afraid, for that reason, funky though I think this is,

it's too limited to invest in, so I'm out.

Four Dragons out.

Only Peter Jones remains.

Can he set aside his earlier concerns

to form a printing partnership?

I have a slightly different view to Nick.

-You'd love one of those.

-I'd love one of those of myself.

I'd like one of you too, Peter.

And I know a few other people that would too.

-Four at least.

-No.

But I'm sitting here as an owner of a photography business, thinking...

-I know.

-..I wonder if that sort of thing, low cost of entry,

trial in a few stores, we could put, sort of,

a photo-booth-style scanner in the stores and see whether

it would work.

And that's very much what I was looking for.

-Exactly.

-Yeah.

But the issue to me is, actually, it's more about you.

-OK.

-You invest in an idea with the person and what you've done is,

you've said you bring more to the party Dragon

and I think that's where you went wrong today.

And that's the reason why I'm not going to invest and say I'm out.

-Merci, au revoir.

-Thank you.

Peter Jones's final refusal sees Sylvain exit with nothing.

His complex business structure failing to win over the Dragons.

They wanted those numbers, I didn't want to give them the numbers.

You know...

Then it got worse and worse and then it's very hard to go back from the

bottom up when you've done so bad in the beginning.

Next up are Londoners Sarah Sleightholm and Beth Chilton.

Good luck, girl.

The pair are pitching their fledgling fashion business

and have designs on one Dragon in particular,

global clothing tycoon, Touker Suleyman.

I think we're after a bit of Touker time.

I think just because of his great manufacturing contacts,

I think he'll really get our product and understand our product

and probably be the Dragon that can identify with our business the best.

Hello, Dragons, my name's Sarah and this is my business partner, Beth.

We're here today to pitch for 78,000 in return for 15%

of our company, Iveson & Sage.

With a combined 13 years' experience between Sarah and I

in the fashion industry, we really noticed two emerging gaps within the

high street market, one being that there's no brand or retailer

solely focusing on fashionable, yet affordable workwear.

So we created Alter.

And Alter is a range of, kind of, trend pieces ranging from, like,

shirts to blazers, to trousers, to jumpsuits,

all with that little fashion edge to it to bring it to life.

And the other, that no occasion-wear brand is really focusing

on beautifully embroidered pieces.

Hope & Ivy is a brand I've always dreamed of creating,

especially with my passion for print and embroidery.

We started our business in October of last year and within four weeks

we had our first order of £130,000 with online retailer ASOS.

That was swiftly followed by a second order of £120,000,

again with ASOS.

It's been five months since our first orders went in and

it's been a complete whirlwind.

And since then we've grossed £530,000 worth of sales and

we're currently at about a 28% profit margin with that.

And then to top it off, Next and Lipsy are now really interested

in taking on Alter for the autumn/winter season.

So, that's a little snapshot of us and our brands and we welcome you

to come and have a look at the product if you want.

A model pitch from Sarah Sleightholm and Beth Chilton, who are seeking

£78,000 for a 15% stake in their profitable fashion range.

Beautiful.

Mmm, beautiful.

Deborah and Sarah, I know that, you know...

I'm shopping. I'm just going to try... Have you got this in a...?

LAUGHTER

It's lovely.

A positive early reaction to the product from Deborah Meaden

and Sarah Willingham.

Thanks, girls. Thank you.

But will the business be on trend for Peter Jones?

When you first came in and I saw this, I have to say,

-I thought they were quite dour colours was my first impression.

-Yeah.

And then you started taking through the figures of the business

and it's outstanding, the success you've had so quickly.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

Half a million pounds in just five months.

Can I firstly know a little bit more about your backgrounds?

-SARAH:

-Well, I studied fashion at uni

and then I worked at ASOS for three years.

-BETH:

-My degree was in fashion management, and then from there

I went to Top Shop, went to a kind of start-up brand

and that's where we met.

We just went, "You know what? If we don't do it now, we'll never do it.

"And if we're going to do it, we're going to go

"as fast as possible and get it, and achieve as high as we can."

The figures are a fit for Peter Jones.

Now, Sarah Willingham wants to get to grips with how they plan

to spend their investment.

Why 78? It's quite a specific number.

It's basically to help put a bit more money into the cash flow

and then help with like overheads and then we want to start

a bit of marketing.

It would be good to spend about £28,000 on marketing -

but when we say marketing, in our industry it's all about bloggers.

You know, bloggers are bigger than celebrities, and if you get

the right bloggers on Instagram, that girls love to follow,

we need to just capture the bloggers that the girls like.

OK, so that's the idea of growing the brand,

-you become known for who you are and people come direct to your website to do it?

-Yeah.

-Yes.

So far, the entrepreneurs haven't put a foot wrong.

Impressive turnover and those all-important industry credentials.

But the fashion forward talk has left greetings card guru

Nick Jenkins feeling out on a limb.

Now, actually, I have to say, it looks like you've done a great job

of setting up a really good business but I just have no knowledge of

this sector whatsoever, so I'm afraid I... I know what you want

is experience and I can't really offer that in this case,

-but wish you all the best of luck, but I'm out.

-OK, thank you.

-That was quick, wasn't it?

-That was really quick.

LAUGHTER

To the point.

A swift exit from Nick Jenkins, citing lack of industry insight.

But it's the Dragon with the global fashion form who Sarah and Beth

set out to impress.

-Hi.

-Hi.

-I know a little bit about clothing.

Yep, we've heard.

I'm a retailer, I'm a manufacturer.

We fabric source, we do everything, so I know all the pitfalls.

You've got lots of energy.

You're very credible.

You've got one customer.

You've got ASOS as your main customer.

So, your biggest risk, at the moment, is your relationship that

you've got with a particular buyer, and if, for instance,

-that buyer gets moved on to another department...

-Yep.

..you're in trouble.

Retail is very tough at the moment.

It's very tough out there.

It's the worst retail period the industry has known for 40 years.

This is not unique.

I think you've been lucky up to now.

A shock reaction from the textile tycoon, who is underwhelmed by their

designs and critical of their customer base.

Has it left Peter Jones questioning his earlier optimism?

Touker's been in this game for a long time,

probably most of his adult life.

What I heard him saying was that you haven't done very well and actually

anybody could do this.

-But I didn't hear you defend yourself...

-Erm, no...

..and you were almost accepting of it and I was shocked.

No, I think I was just, kind of...

-Well, we wouldn't be here if we didn't believe...

-In what we do.

We wouldn't have come to you guys if we feel that we are selling a

product that's not worthy of being sellable.

We know that it's sellable. People want it. They want it now.

-DEBORAH:

-I don't think it was lucky.

If anybody's going to make this business work,

you've got all the staff inside it who can do it, so, you know,

I don't think it's luck.

So, I'm going to ask you a different question.

What's your, you know, who do you want to roll out to?

I always say, I always want the top...

The top six people, we're gunning for next.

-Yeah.

-I want that list on that wall,

because we should be working our way through it. So what's your plan?

We wanted Lipsy and we got into Lipsy.

-BETH:

-And Next.

And Next. And then, I think, Very.

-BETH:

-And then maybe even looking at the higher end of the market, maybe even like Net-a-Porter.

And then even looking internationally. Retailers like Zalando, like Nelly.

Like, Nasty Girl would love all the embroidered kind of pieces.

We just want to create two amazing, amazing brands.

The fashion industry duo deftly deal with Deborah Meaden.

But it appears they have a long way to go before

Touker Suleyman is satisfied.

You're not focused.

You've got two brands there.

You're going to double your costs of marketing.

You're going to double your costs of website.

You're going to double all your costs.

You're a start-up and already you're stretching yourselves very wide.

You're better off focusing on one brand.

I don't know how we can stop something that's doing so well,

so that's why we really just want both, and they are both succeeding so well.

OK, I've seen it before and, to me,

two brands, two websites,

you're in for a disaster.

The blows just keep on coming,

as Touker Suleyman makes another damning assessment

of Beth and Sarah's business.

Will the retail tycoon's criticism exert any influence over fellow

high street magnate Peter Jones?

I... This is very, very difficult.

-Touker's made some really good points, hasn't he?

-Yeah.

He knows the industry really well, so those sort of points have

a major influence on me.

Of course.

I was waiting to see whether he's being cleverly tactical

by just talking and it's just noise...

And putting us off.

..and then putting us off.

But regardless, we are clearly all individuals

and we make our own decisions.

I have a business. I don't know if... Have you heard of Farrell

-or come across Farrell with Robbie Williams?

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

I own half of that company.

We sell millions and millions of pounds worth of product.

And it's the most successful brand in Primark.

Oh, wow.

Even with what Touker is saying, if I invest, could I make a difference?

And could I do almost what Touker is describing as potentially impossible

and help you turn this into a great business?

I think I can.

Wow, thank you.

So I'm going to make you an offer, because I think you have done

a great job.

So, I'm going to offer you all of the money

for 25% of the business.

Peter Jones's revelation of a stake in a profitable high-street clothing

range wrong-foots Touker Suleyman.

He's offering all of the money,

but for 10% more equity than the entrepreneurs wanted to give away.

Is Sarah Willingham poised to up the ante?

Similarly, Touker hasn't completely put me off.

I mean, I've heard everything he is said and thought,

but look at the last five months! It's bloody brilliant!

Hopefully, he's throwing a red herring. I don't know.

I mean, it's really, really good.

So, I am also going to make you an offer.

And I'd be very happy to split it with another Dragon.

I'll make you an offer for all of the money for 25%,

but as soon as you can pay that money back,

I'm very happy to drop back down to 15% that you originally

came in and asked for.

Wow. Thank you.

Sarah Willingham joins Peter Jones

in dismissing Touker Suleyman's steer,

offering the entrepreneurs a buy-back deal that matches

their preferred 15% stake.

Deborah Meaden has yet to declare her hand.

Will she raise the stakes even higher?

I do not pretend to compete with the knowledge to my right

or even Peter's more recent knowledge.

I can bring in the fashion expertise, but I won't pretend

to have the same set-up that these guys have got.

So, for that, I'm going to offer you all of the money

for 20% of the business.

-OK. Thank you.

-OK.

Oh, and I'm happy to share.

A collection of deals to choose from.

But it's the Dragon with over 40 years' experience in global retail

Beth and Sarah came to bag.

So far, he's lambasted their labels and bashed their business model.

Time to find out if he's been playing the Den all along.

OK.

Um... I know what's involved. I know what you need.

And it's going to take a lot of time, a lot of energy,

to make this into a proper business.

I think that 78 grand is not going to go very far.

I'll make you an offer for all the money, but I want 40%.

Strategic play from Touker Suleyman.

Finally, the entrepreneurs get an offer from the Dragon they came for.

But his expertise comes at a cost.

40% of the business.

Will this ultimately be too high a price to pay for the design duo?

Shall we go and do the thinking at the back of the room?

-Do you want to chat?

-Yeah. Can we?

Oh, my God.

It's a tough call.

Four Dragons at Sarah and Beth's disposal.

Sarah Willingham's offering 78,000

for a 25% stake and a buy-back deal.

I think to see if Deborah and Peter will split.

Deborah Meaden wants 20% of the business for the same cash.

And Peter Jones offers his own fashion expertise

in exchange for 25% of the business.

Considerably less than the 40% that high-street clothing magnate

Touker Suleyman is seeking.

Sorry.

Let's discuss...

So, we'd like to see if Peter, you'd go in with Deborah?

At all, on the offer?

And is that at my 25%?

So, 12.5% each?

Yeah, and then, if we hit our targets, would you lower that

to then 20% and when we repay you back your original investment?

-So I'd end up with 10%?

-Yeah.

-To be clear, though, that would mean that I would give you half of the money for 12.5%?

-Mm-hmm.

And when I'd receive that money back, I would drop down to 10%,

and likewise so would Deborah?

Yeah.

I would accept that offer if Deborah would.

I'd be happy to. I'd be delighted to, actually.

Thank you!

-Brilliant!

-Have we got a deal?

-You've got a deal, yes.

-Yay! Well done.

-We do this now, we're in business together.

-Thank you so much.

-See you later.

-See you later.

Sarah and Beth exit the Den having deftly negotiated a competitive deal

with not one, but two Dragons.

Congratulations.

Touker, I knew you were up to something.

I knew you were going to make an offer.

When Touker was kind of really questioning it, we were like, oh,

maybe he doesn't believe in where we are today.

Well done. However, there's a lot of work to be done.

Sorry, I stopped at the "however".

Whereas Peter and Deborah's reaction was just great.

-Two Dragons.

-Two Dragons.

-For the price of one!

-Yeah!

So it's great.

Also hoping for a lucrative outcome to his time in the Den

was Rupert Evans from Norwich.

He was convinced a Dragon would want to part with £40,000

in exchange for 40% equity in his innovation

for the stationery market.

Fold-Ease is a patented,

one-of-a-kind paper and card folding tool,

which prevents friction burns and paper cuts.

Fits comfortably on the finger or thumb,

speeds up folding and creates a really neat crease line.

Nick Jenkins was full of praise for the entrepreneur's attention to detail.

You know what I love about this product?

What I love about it is the fact that there is a hole for the nail

that goes through. Brilliant.

Brilliant. As demonstrated by... Look at that.

What an absolute... That is genius.

While Sarah Willingham was still getting to grips

with the point of his product.

This is to fold paper?

Yeah.

-It's ridiculous.

-Yeah. Why?

For people who want to create a better crease line.

Say, for example, you're in a secretarial role or an admin role,

like in the paper crafting industry, where that's important.

Long-fingered Peter Jones was feeling a little left out.

I can't even fit this properly on my finger,

so it wouldn't be that good for me.

Well, there are two sizes.

But... You have not brought out two sizes of that?

Yeah, there is a multi-size twin pack.

You did not need to bring out two sizes. Trust me.

But there was no easing off from Rupert,

who was convinced he could appeal to the Dragon with the most famous

fingers in finance.

I think this is right up your alley.

Is it because I do that?

Well, to be fair, there's something rather pleasing about that.

All of the Dragons failed to see the investment potential

in Rupert's thimble folder.

To have a pair of roller skates on the end of your fingers

to fold paper is just plain stupid.

-I'm out.

-I'm afraid I'm out!

I think this is... This could be a massive success. I really do.

-I'm out.

-I'm afraid I'm out.

I'm going to let you keep that success to yourself.

I'm not going to invest in you, Rupert. I'm out.

OK. Thanks anyway.

Still to come on tonight's show...

Can I try it?

Products revealed...

..and finances concealed.

Something is going to cost £1.7 million. What is it?

We've managed a net loss of £75,000.

I must be going mad. No, you had... No. You've got 100... In these figures you gave us...

-So, you've now got 25,000 left.

-Exactly.

Will the Dragons do a deal?

You guys are so backable.

Pigs might fly, but I can't see you're going to get there.

There's no way you want me in a family business.

I'd ask you to fire your dad.

Next into the Den, father and daughter John and Anneka Chauhan.

They're here to pitch John's latest brainwave,

which is all about solving a slippery problem

we have with our bags.

So, will the Dragons see any value in the invention,

or will it just be excess baggage?

My background is marketing

and he's secretly an inventor.

I'm sure he is, cos he doesn't come up with just one amazing idea.

He's got four or five stuck in his pocket.

His brain just works in a different way, I think.

It's our combined strength that hopefully will win over the Dragons

and make it into something that could be a global brand.

Hello, Dragons. I'm Anneka Chauhan.

I'm John Chauhan.

And we're here asking for £50,000 for 10% equity in our brand i-stay.

i-stay is a non-slip shoulder strap.

It's a father and daughter innovation.

The idea came about whilst we were travelling and experiencing

our laptop bags slipping off our shoulder.

It's comfortable.

It allows airflow.

And it has ergonomic benefits.

To...

Sorry. It has ergonomic benefits.

It's a patent-pending design and it's been registered

in many different countries.

You can clip it into any bag that has D rings.

There are many laptop bags on the market,

but none of them have the unique strap that we have.

The i-stay brand was launched in 2012, and in 2013,

we managed to do £130,000 worth of turnover

at a net loss of £75,000.

In 2014, we did £240,000

and a net loss of £22,000.

In the year 15, we did £290,000,

a net loss of 21,000.

In the last six months,

we've now managed to do £200,000 worth of turnover,

and a net return of £20,000.

With the investment money, we're looking to create brand awareness.

We're also looking for your advice, guidance and expertise.

Thank you for listening, we welcome any questions.

-Can I try it?

-Of course.

-Yes.

A luggage strap that stays put is the offering

from father and daughter double act, Anneka and John Chauhan.

-JOHN:

-You have to lean quite a lot.

-Yeah.

-NICK:

-Can I try it?

-Of course.

They're hoping a £50,000 investment, in return for 10% equity,

will help keep their bag accessory business in the black.

I kind of get where you're coming from.

Touker Suleyman and Nick Jenkins seem satisfied it delivers on its promise to stay in place.

But can the business deliver a profitable return for an investor?

Sarah Willingham's first with the questions.

I was sat here looking at that, thinking, you know,

no-one's going to buy that because

the straps on the bags are perfectly adequate.

I've never had a problem with it before.

Why would you put it on a rucksack?

But you've sold a lot.

-JOHN:

-Yes.

And, I must admit, that's really thrown me.

This is a replacement bag strap, so if you have a bag you already like,

you can just clip that in and use it for that purpose.

But, if you want to purchase one of our bags, they all come

with the i-stay straps.

OK. So, in terms of your split of sales,

now I'm not surprised that your sales are as high as that,

-I thought you'd sold that many...

-Just the straps.

..replacement straps. I was like, "Wow!"

So, the majority of your sales is actually in the range of bags?

Yes, it is.

Looking at your numbers, why is it you've made such a loss?

I think initial investment was about £100,000 that we put in,

so that played into the first year.

Yes, but that wouldn't affect your net profit.

Um...

The stock, the...

We have... Currently, we have something like £120,000

of paid stock - that's at landed cost. And, initially,

the way our accountant seems to have worked it out was to say,

"Look, you've invested 100,000, you've put a lot of money into the

"stock, wages, staff, etc."

So all of that seemed to come into play.

Three consecutive years of net losses aren't sitting easy with Sarah Willingham.

Now, luxury accessory retailer Touker Suleyman has concerns

about the baggage in their balance sheet.

You said that your initial investment total was about 100,000?

Yes.

-And you've lost over the three or four years, about 120,000?

-Yes.

So, somewhere, you must owe somebody a lot of money?

We don't actually. Everything is paid for.

All the stock we have in the warehouse is literally paid for.

But you said the business started with 100,000?

Yes.

And over the three years you've lost 120,000.

So, you haven't made any money.

Most of our money's sitting in stock at the moment.

No, but I can't work that out.

Am I not thinking straight? I don't know.

Maybe it's me.

The 100,000 that was invested. That's the question mark.

The 100,000 is owed to Falcon.

Oh, who's...? Ah, OK. Now you're saying...

Sorry, my apologies.

OK. So, who's Falcon?

Falcon is the company that I own with my wife.

-TOUKER:

-So, basically, you have put in 200,000?

100,000.

-No.

-That's what we put in.

What Touker's trying to get across is that if you start a business

on day one and you put £100,000 into it and over the course of the next three years

you lose £121,000 in trading losses...

..you can't then still have £120,000 worth of stock at the end of that,

unless you owe money for the stock.

Unless your figures are not right.

You must have put £220,000 into it.

Confusion reigns as Touker Suleyman and Nick Jenkins

are forced to second-guess the accounts to get to the bottom

of the company's year-on-year losses.

Can Peter Jones get a handle on the Chauhan family business finances?

Your first year, you put £100,000 in, your wife and yourself, yes?

-Yes.

-So, end of that year, how much money did you lose?

The 75,000 in the first year.

And how did you finance that loss?

-JOHN:

-Ah, must have been from our main business, from our Falcon business.

-DEBORAH:

-Hold on, I must be going mad. No, you've got 100... In these figures you gave us...

-You've got 25,000. So you've now got 25,000 left.

-Exactly, exactly.

OK. So you've still got 25,000 left.

What happened in the next year?

We lost £22,000.

So you've now got £3,000 left.

What happened at the end of your third year?

Third year we lost £20,000.

How could you lose 20,000 when you've only got 3,000 left?

We must have put more money in, Peter. We must have put more money in from Falcon.

Finally, some clarity.

But John's uncertainty as to how much money from his

existing business has been pumped into this new one,

hasn't done him any favours with Peter Jones.

Will Deborah Meaden be any more understanding?

Anneka, John, you've got your investor.

-You are.

-You are the natural investor.

I don't know what's happened to you in the Den. You must be good at what you do,

-you're running a successful business that's turning out a good profit, John.

-Yes.

So, I don't know what happened in the Den today, but you were unable

to explain those finances which always makes us a little

bit nervous, particularly with an experienced businessperson.

I won't be investing. I'm out.

It's an open and shut case for Deborah Meaden, who very quickly

declines the opportunity to invest.

Which way will Touker Suleyman go?

There's no way you want me as a shareholder in the family business.

I'd ask you to fire your dad or something,

and you wouldn't want that.

Or fire you.

You used your father's overhead.

Reduce your overheads, get back into a good profit,

but do it as a family.

-Yeah.

-You don't need me.

And I'm out.

-Yeah.

-JOHN:

-Thank you.

I think when there is such a closely-knit family,

if I ever wanted to push something through, I would get nowhere.

You would gather together and I would lose every single battle

and it makes it very difficult for an outside investor,

so I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

Three Dragons have now declared themselves out.

Nervous about the numbers and sceptical about investing in such

a tightknit family enterprise.

Only Nick Jenkins and Peter Jones remain.

Can either of them be persuaded to help keep the business in the black?

I think you've invented a great product and I'm sure you'll probably

make 40,000 profit this year,

maybe 100,000 profit the year after that, couple of 100,000 after that.

So, I think there's a window of opportunity for you to make some money.

After that, you might find that everyone else looks and thinks,

"Hang on, why is this i-stay selling all these things?

"Ah, we need to improve our strap."

And then, suddenly, all the other manufacturers come up to the level of your game,

so it's difficult as a long-term investment.

So, I'm afraid, for that reason, I'm out.

Thank you.

What does Falcon, what does that turn over?

Falcon turns over 1.75 million.

1.75 million. What did you make?

We made about £120,000 profit.

This business that you started three years ago,

was this started by your daughter?

-Erm, jointly.

-Jointly.

-It was both of us together.

Yeah. But your dad lent you the money?

Yes.

-To start your business?

-Yeah.

I think it's fantastic.

Father's helping daughter create a business.

But...

I'm very, very concerned.

Neither of you know how to run a business. I'm amazed that, actually,

-you've done incredibly well, Father...

-Thank you.

..to make that profit.

This is ultimately a business to get your daughter on her journey,

which I applaud, but I don't want to be part of that.

Her next start of her journey should be doing it for herself,

understanding how to run a company first, before launching one of your own.

I think that you're too early. You don't know enough about business.

So, that's the reason why I'm not going to invest and say that I'm out.

Thank you.

-Cheers.

-Thanks.

-JOHN:

-Thank you.

A clean sweep from the Dragons, as confusing family finances mean i-stay goes.

We just let ourselves down on the numbers.

But I still feel very positive, cos I know that we've got

something unique. I know we've got a successful business already.

We're still going to do it, just maybe at a slower pace.

Here we go.

Last into the Den, Nick Coleman and Andrew Allen...

business partners with a modest streak.

We have the value of being amazing, so in everything that we do,

we try and make sure we're the absolute best at it.

Tame you, going to tame you, going to tame you,

going to tame you, going to tame you.

I have prepared and prepared and prepared and we are ready for this

and we are really excited.

-WHISPERS:

-Good luck.

-Ready?

-Ready.

Hello, Dragons. I'm Nick and I am the founder and CEO

of The Snaffling Pig Company.

I'm here today with my business partner and marketing director, Andy...

Hello.

..and we are looking for a £70,000 investment for a 10% stake

of our business, The Snaffling Pig.

For the last five years,

there's been a noticeable trend in the British food and drink culture.

Beer has had a revolution in craft,

burgers have gone gourmet and popcorn has even turned adventurous.

All of these familiar favourites have been refreshed with skill

and passion and now see a much wider audience as a result.

Yet, there is one humble,

but very awesome snack that has remained firmly in the shadows.

-DRUMROLL

-Dragons, it's time for our PIG reveal.

We present to you...

The pork scratching.

For over 250 years, this cheeky indulgence of a snack

has been loved by so very many people, but has remained completely and utterly unchanged.

So, we set out two years ago to take this little piggy to markets

he's never been before.

-ANDY:

-Now, to make that pig envision a reality,

we set about tackling some of the key challenges we felt the market

typically faced. First, there's the nature of the product itself.

We often hear people are worried about breaking their teeth

and others seem to half expect to find a nipple

in a bag of scratchings.

So, we only take prime cuts of pork, which we then double-cook.

Secondly, there was a lack of variation,

so we've developed a range of 11 flavours.

And finally, this little piggy had an image problem.

So, we set about creating a range of innovative formats

for the pub market through to a range of gifting jars

and even wedding favours.

It turns out, he's quite a versatile SWINE.

The pork scratching market is worth 40 million a year.

So, with our innovative brands,

we fully expect to take this business to a £6.9 million turnover

with a £630,000 net profit within the next three years.

Dragons, we would love you to be part of our adventure, and together,

let's make the pig in magic happen.

Thank you.

A pitch with gusto from less-than-diffident duo,

Nick Coleman and Andrew Allen.

So, we've got black pepper.

Lovely.

They're offering 10% of their snack business in return for £70,000.

-ANDY:

-We do have ghost chilli flavoured - that'll knock your socks off.

-I'll have the hot one. Is it really hot?

-Yes, it's super hot.

-Oh, my God.

-Yeah, you might want some milk.

OK, OK. Water. OK.

Multimillionaire Nick Jenkins has already taken one very big piggy

to market with his Moonpig greetings card empire.

-PETER:

-That is hot. That is hot.

Will he have the appetite to add to his PORK-FOLIO?

Wow, OK.

OK. Now, you know I obviously...

I have a natural preference for all things porcine.

How did you get into this?

About six years ago, I started my own business selling medical supplies,

but two years ago, I wanted to get involved in a consumer brand.

Just explain that. That's a very natural progression there.

-So natural, isn't it(?)

-From medical supplies into pig-related...

You know, I came from commodity trading into Russia

into a pig-related greeting card business, so I kind of get where you're coming from.

Guys, I LOVE pork scratchings.

Oh, brilliant.

I'm your perfect customer except that I'm also completely

aware of the fat and the salt.

Now, we all know the trends are going towards healthier food,

we all know there are problems with salt, we all know there are problems with fat.

I think this size bag might be a little alarming.

Although, I promise you, I could eat that, no problem at all,

and ask for the next one.

The larger packet is slightly less guilty than you think,

because that's a slightly different product, so, there's about the same

level of calories that is in the smaller bag. That's a lighter, fluffy one...

636 calories?

-Yes.

-I looked straight on the back to check how many meals

I had to skip to be able to eat that entire packet.

It is an indulgence, as you said.

It's one of those things. It's not something you'd be eating every day.

So, tell me, this sounds like you've had an amazing first year.

Yes, absolutely.

Talk me through those numbers.

So, year one, which will end in May 2017,

we have projected 2.2 million, with a gross of 1.1 million

-and a net of 165,000.

-Mm-hm.

Year two, we have a turnover expected of 4.5 million

with a gross of 1.9 million and a net of 420.

And in year three, 6.9 million with a gross of 2.8 million

and a net of 630.

Confident financial projections and a palatable product

mean the entrepreneurs have yet to put a trotter out of place.

With a fortune built in the food industry,

could Sarah Willingham be the first to chow down on a deal?

Nick, Andy,

as a business opportunity,

you guys are so backable, but I have got to love what I invest in.

I've got to.

It can't just be two great guys and a backable business.

I've also got to want to talk about the product and love the product

and pork scratchings make me gag.

I don't know where else to go, other than that.

I just can't eat them.

So, I'm really sorry, I can't.

I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

A shock revelation from Sarah Willingham, as her taste buds

get in the way of a potentially profitable partnership.

And now there's something about their numbers

that's troubling Nick Jenkins.

You've obviously got overheads of 2.2 million,

so what's the breakdown of that?

So... The first thing is it's made up of...

The majority of the money is being spent on our staff.

How much of that 2.2 million is going to be salaries?

Um, it is...

480.

That still leaves £1.8 million of overhead.

Do you know what, Nick? I've forgotten some of the figures, I'm so sorry.

No, no, it should be in your head. There's a big number here.

Either you're going to do some massive TV campaign or you're going

to aerially bombard Coventry with pork scratchings

or something is going to cost £1.7 million. What is it?

Sorry, I'm forgetting some of our additional overheads that we have in there.

Whether it's our IT, it's our contingency,

there is obviously advertising and PR.

That was just a little bit vague.

That's not terribly good.

The once-confident entrepreneurs have floundered over their figures

and in the Den, that can be a recipe for disaster.

It was the calorie count that Deborah Meaden took issue with,

but could she still pick the piggy pair for investment?

Don't look at me with a lot of hope in your eyes.

I'm sorry, because I don't want to do it.

I've decided that, you know, I work with organic, I work with healthy,

I moved towards that end of the market,

and this just isn't going to sit with me.

You've done some fantastic stuff here and it might be

the oddest reason in the world, but sometimes, it just doesn't...fit.

So, I won't be investing. I'm out.

I think you guys should be commended

for starting a business from scratch to be where you are.

Because I don't eat pork,

I'm in a position where I have to go with my beliefs.

I don't want to mess you guys around, cos there's other Dragons here and for that reason,

I'm out.

Two more Dragons gone, both citing personal reasons for not investing.

Will Peter Jones be any more willing to plough his cash

into the pig-based product?

I've done something similar in terms of...that came into the Den, it's popcorn related.

I've certainly gone through that whole journey for several years

and it was really exciting, and at the start, we did really well.

And then we found that there was some very serious competition

that came into the marketplace.

The price really moved and, almost overnight,

took the rug from under the business.

I'm concerned because I think that your margins will come

under pressure as you scale the business.

The market's in growth 13% year on year, so we're going to come under some pressure,

that's why we've pushed so hard on the branded jars.

-We've done particularly well with Not On The High Street.

-Yeah.

We were their fastest-growing food and drink partner last year.

We're going to be featured heavily for Fathers' Day and for Christmas

and we're working on the Advent calendar you can see at the end there.

It does answer a gift for a difficult-to-buy man.

You know, pigs might fly but I can't see you're going to get there.

I really can't and I think, sadly, I think it's going to hit that plateau.

So, I'm going to say that I'm out.

Peter Jones walks away, concerned over the scalability of the business.

Nick Jenkins is the last Dragon standing.

Will he be the one to save their bacon?

Look, I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to make you an offer for all of the money, but I would want

20% of the business and that would make it worthwhile.

Thank you very much for the offer.

-Can we go have a chat?

-Go and have a chat.

Thank you.

What d'you want to do?

Finally, an offer.

But Nick Jenkins's equity demand of 20% is double the 10%

the entrepreneurs want to give away.

-What do you think?

-I think we should take it.

OK.

I think this will be the shortest chat in history.

Will they strike a deal?

-I think that's the way.

-Excellent.

Great. Had a little chat then.

Thank you so much for that offer. It's very humbling to know that

you want to be involved in our journey, so we're very excited by that.

Obviously, we came in looking for ten, obviously we're willing to negotiate.

We really believe in where this product's going to go,

but what we'd like to do is put our money where our mouth is.

So, what we'd like to do is offer you the 20% today...

-Yep.

-..but we'd like the chance to be able to buy back your shares

at today's market rate in 18 months' time, once we hit our sales

and our profit projections.

-To buy back to 10?

-Yes.

In 18 months?

-In 18 months.

-Then it's a deal.

-Yes!

The pigs have merged. Here we go.

The pork scratching entrepreneurs have done it.

They've given away 20% of their business,

but with a buy-back agreement that will potentially see Nick Jenkins's

stake drop to 10% in 18 months' time.

Thank you so much. That's brilliant. Thank you.

-Yes!

-Well done, fantastic.

You're two chuffed little piglets, aren't you?

This little piggy has gone to market.

LAUGHTER

-Well done.

-Real good.

Wow, you do like pigs, don't you?

-They were good guys.

-Very, very smart guys.

It's going to be so exciting to see what other things we're going to come up with.

We've got the king of gifting, Mr Moonpig himself, involved in Snaffling Pig,

it's the perfect marriage.

Fantastic.

So, tonight, business has been all about the double act.

It was double trouble for the family partnership of John and Anneka,

but we saw fashion duo Beth and Sarah shake hands on a deal

with two Dragons, and a pork scratchings partnership

snaffled an investment from Nick Jenkins.

Now, the winning pairs need to double down on the work

and double up on the size of their business.

Coming up next time...

Rachel and Paula, can we...?

Oh, my God.

Can we start being a bit more serious about this?

I don't want this to go wrong for you...

-OK.

-But you need to come up with something a lot stronger than that.

I'm not going to tie your shoelaces again.

It's about time you did them yourself.

You have solved a problem that doesn't exist.

You've put your whole life behind this?

-Yeah.

-I'm going to say it how it is, I'm not impressed.

I'm still struggling to understand what I'm investing in.

You've got to make this more snappy.

-I'm going to make you an offer.

-You might need two Dragons for this.

I can't not make you an offer.

You've done well, haven't you?