Episode 1 Dragons' Den

The Dragons are back.

And tonight, two new fire-breathers are unleashed,

and are taking no prisoners.

Unless I'm missing something, I think this is barking mad.

But why do you need £600,000 today

if you haven't got a plan for it?

They are...

the former banker who sold a cashpoint company

for a cool £50 million...

..and head of the UK's number one vitamin business...

They've got some fierce competition,

and for the entrepreneurs who will face them...

-SHE WHISPERS:

-Oh, my God.

..this will be the toughest business pitch of their lives.

You are valuing your business on something that hasn't happened yet,

and I'm telling you it's ludicrous.

I'm exasperated. Are you hearing these words?

Yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah.

Am I going to part with my money with you?

No.

But who will strike the best deal tonight?

-It's got me excited.

-I'm going to make you an offer.

I will add value, not just be a passive investor.

I love this.

Tej?

Let's do it.

Welcome to Dragons' Den, open for business again,

but with some big changes,

as two new Dragons join our line-up

of fantastic beasts of commerce.

And first to feel the heat of the Den

are Julianne Ponan and Matthew Ford from Surrey.

They've been preparing their pitch for months,

but proved that when those lift doors open,

entering the Den really can be a terrifying prospect.

-SHE WHISPERS:

-Hi, Dragons, I'm...

Hi, Dragons, I'm Julianne.

I'm so scared.

I'm shaking.

We did apply for Dragons' Den before,

and I was too nervous to take it any further.

-SHE WHISPERS:

-Oh, my God.

You get one shot in front of these amazing entrepreneurs.

My heart is going a million miles an hour.

I'm just absolutely bricking it.

-My heart is racing.

-I'm forgetting everything,

everything I need to say, I'm basically forgetting now.

Hi, Dragons, I'm Julianne, owner and CEO of Creative Nature.

This is my operations manager, Matthew.

I'm here today to ask you for £75,000 investment

for 5% of my company.

Creative Nature have three core product ranges.

Our multi-award-winning free-from snack bars,

our nutrient rich superfoods

and our innovative baking mixes

that cater for all top 14 allergens.

They're organic and have a vegan recipe on pack.

The inspiration behind Creative Nature comes from my own allergies.

I suffer from anaphylaxis,

which means I stop breathing when I eat nuts and certain additives.

I could not find anything in the supermarkets that could cater for

this that was healthy AND tasty so I decided to create my own.

We already have a proven track record in the market,

and are sold in Asda, Lloyds Pharmacy, TK Maxx,

Ocado, Vital Ingredients,

and many independent health stores.

And on top of this, we've just secured a launch in Co-op

for over 2,000 stores

in the impulse section for our snack bars.

This contract is worth £1 million

in the first 12 months.

I would love you to try some of our products.

The first nerve-racking hurdle is out of the way for anxious

entrepreneurs Julianne Ponan and Matthew Ford,

who are looking for investment in their range of free-from foods.

The snack bars, you've got Apple Pie,

Salted Caramel

and Goji Goodness.

But to secure £75,000

for 5% of their business,

there's just that small matter of the Dragons' interrogation

to get through.

First up, new Dragon, Manchester-born

self-made millionaire Jenny Campbell.

Julianne, you look terrified!

Absolutely terrified.

You started the business how long ago?

Um, so that was nearly five years ago, so it's 2012.

All right, then, OK.

And Matthew, how long have you been part of this journey?

-From the beginning.

-You knew each other?

Yeah, so we actually worked at a supermarket together

-back before we both went to university.

-OK.

So I was pulling trolleys and Julianne was on the tills.

All right, OK. Do you split the shareholding?

-No.

-No.

I don't own any of the business.

I don't understand, Matthew - if you've been there since the start...

-Yes.

-..why don't you own part of the business?

Um, I've never asked for part of the business.

I'm just happy to work for and alongside Julianne.

And how important are you, Matthew? If you weren't in the business...

I would say I'm vital for the business.

Julianne, how critical is Matthew?

Matthew is very valuable in the company, and I think he knows that.

-He's never talked about shares, actually, at all.

-Why...

My question is, why haven't you?

Why haven't I?

We're actually together as well.

-What do you mean, together?

-You're partners.

-We're partners.

Partners, yep.

So I have a, I guess,

a vested interest in making the company grow.

You have a vested interest until, you know, she leaves you.

An awkward moment, as Peter Jones questions

the strength of the entrepreneurs' multifaceted partnership.

And now, ex-banker Jenny Campbell

wants to get her teeth into their sales figures.

OK, so tell me about the last three years' trading.

So, 2015, we turned over

-£465,000...

-Mm-hmm.

-..with a net profit of £36,000.

-Mm-hmm.

2016, we grew turnover

to £528,000,

with a net profit of £15,000.

In the last five months, in 2017,

we have turned over currently £270,000,

with a net profit of £18,000.

OK, so something strange is happening in the numbers here.

What happens in 2016 that you then go to a lower net profit?

Net profit.

So, what's happened is that I spent a lot on marketing.

I also overspent on some of the listing fees, which was a mistake.

Going forward with the new business,

I have actually negotiated no listing fees.

Julianne's finding her feet,

and proving that beneath the jitters

lies a savvy businesswoman who can learn from her mistakes.

And it looks like Deborah Meaden

is feeling confident about the brand's potential.

OK, what I'm particularly interested in

is this whole gluten-free, vegan.

You know, people are stopping wanting to have to

look at the packets. They'd like to be able to go to an area that said,

actually, that's free of everything so that's fine.

So, what is it that you're looking for?

I think there's going to be problems down the road with supermarkets,

-as they will always push you on...

-Margin. I'm glad you...

You obviously recognise the margin thing

because I think that will be your single biggest issue,

as you roll out - that margin gets tighter and tighter.

Yeah, and I think that's where you guys can really come in and say,

"This buyer wants this in particular. Can we innovate?

"Can we change the product to get into store this way?"

And I think you guys will open those extra doors for me.

Julianne, I want to know about this contract you've just signed.

The Co-op £1 million contract, tell me about that.

It's 2,367 stores,

we've got an e-mail confirming our Storm account.

And we've based this on actual rate of sale in Asda at the moment,

and we sell at eight bars per store per week.

If you times that out, it works out at a £1 million contract.

Julianne, that really worries me, that answer.

-MATTHEW:

-Oh.

You are forecasting. That wasn't to say that you...

I'm proving the rate of sale in Asda...

Well, yeah, but when I get a contract,

I'll get actually a forward order. You've got an initial order,

and then you're... you are then pre-supposing sell-through

based on another provider.

So, you're valuing your business on something that hasn't happened yet.

It's because we've already secured these clients.

Well, you haven't secured the clients.

At the moment, you've got an opening order and you're valuing your

business today at 1.5 million and I'm telling you it's ludicrous.

Um... What have we predicted?

We've predicted a 70K profit this year.

70K profit? So what does that value your business at, then?

20 times its income of a business that's not established?

I feel disappointed because this is something that I would have loved

to have invested in, and I think you're great.

But I'm not going to sit here and waste time,

so I'm going to tell you I'm sorry, but I'm out.

If there's a guaranteed way to get Peter Jones' hackles up,

it's with an overgenerous valuation on a fledgling business.

As he exits the deal,

will new Dragon Tej Lalvani

see a place for this free-from food company

in his global health empire?

Julianne, you need to give yourself a lot more credit.

I think you've got a good range of products, and the free-from

is definitely a growing market,

but margin is very important.

Your margin needs to be much higher, at the end of the day.

Your business could be gone overnight

if your margins are not there.

I'm not decided yet.

While vitamin king Tej Lalvani chews things over,

Jenny Campbell is weighing up the value

she can add to the duo's allergy friendly business.

You have done fantastically so far,

but you are at this juncture

where you need some help.

I find myself more drawn to wanting to help you believe in yourself

and motivate yourself

than I'm drawn to the product,

and that's not why I'm here as an investor.

So, I'm out.

Guys...

Very amazed at your knowledge.

All the way through from finance to delivery,

you know, you're a real entrepreneur.

However, your valuation is crazy.

Crazy! Crazy, crazy.

So, for that reason, I'm out.

Three Dragons down in quick succession.

And with the pressure building on the whole food entrepreneurs,

Deborah Meaden steps up to the plate.

I think it's a good business.

You've got a great opportunity ahead of you,

but you're also at your most risky phase of the business.

You're going to be under massive pressure in your margins.

It's that weird thing but you could quadruple your sales and actually

end up making less money if you're not really careful.

But I'm going to make you an offer.

I'm going to offer you all of the money...

..but I want 25% of the business.

So, that's my offer.

Deborah Meaden's offer of £75,000

for 25% of the company

demands five times more than the deal

Julianne and Matthew had on the table.

Tej Lalvani was previously undecided.

Is he now poised to make a rival bid?

You've learnt so much

and you've adapted very quickly.

I think you just need to be more confident and believe in yourself.

I'm very tempted...

But the things you've asked for

from a Dragon are big time commitments.

And for 5%, no Dragon's going to be agreeing to that.

So, sadly, I won't be investing.

I'm out.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

Um, can we talk to the wall?

The entrepreneurs now have a tricky decision to make -

to give away 25% of their company to Deborah Meaden,

or to walk away with nothing.

What do you think? What is your gut telling you?

-I don't know.

-Because your gut's normally right.

I don't think, though, she'll go down to 20. Straight away.

We can ask. OK.

Deborah. My only...

My only thing is, is...

..my... I would like you to be at 20%.

That was my sort of cut-off...

..at 20%.

For me, you were the Dragon I wanted.

I wanted you from day one.

Is there any possibility of a buy-back at all?

Of 5%.

Do you know, I feel a bit odd about buy-backs.

It's kind of counterintuitive. Why would I want to buy back?

I want to be moti... I want to be in this...

I want to be in this together!

I really want Deborah but I just...

What if we hit the targets that we said we were going to hit in 2018?

2.5 million,

1.1 million gross profit

and a net profit of 250,000?

OK, um...

..all of the money for 25%,

but if you hit your targets in 2018,

you can buy 5% of the shares back,

so that they drop down to 20%.

-So, if you're 100%...

-I'm 100%...

Oh, thank God for that! Wahey!

Excellent. Could you look a bit happier, please?

SHE LAUGHS

-Well done.

-Bye, guys.

Not a nerve in sight, as Julianne and Matthew negotiate a deal.

The duo become a trio, and leave the Den with the prospect

of a healthy financial future.

We did it!

Don't cry, little one. We got it!

I'm happy, I'm literally just a bit...

I guess, overwhelmed with everything.

We've always wanted Deborah.

It means we're going to go global, we really are.

Next into the Den is Nilesh Pandit,

a former footballer from London.

He's a confident entrepreneur who believes his winning strategy

will reward him with a trophy investor.

If the Dragons try to boss me around, then I don't believe it

would work, because everything's airtight.

It's a proven business. I've got the answers to all their questions,

and I've gone through it all and there's absolutely no

pitfalls with the business.

Hello, Dragons. My name is Nilesh Pandit.

I am the managing director and owner of Play Five A Side Ltd.

Today, I am seeking £100,000

in exchange for 12.5% of the business.

Play Five A Side Ltd began back in 2009,

where our focus was after-work football leagues.

Since then, our product range has diversified to include

children's parties, corporate sports tournaments,

other sports events, like netball and so forth.

I believe I've spotted a gap in the market.

A few years ago, I was walking past an adventure playground.

This playground had just received funding for a brand-new

sports pitch. However, it did not get the funding

for fencing and for lighting to go alongside it.

So, I approached the playground and said,

"Well, we can do that for you,

"in exchange for commercial use in the evenings."

So we would let it out to our corporate clients.

The playground naturally bit my hand off.

So, we have rolled this project out at five different locations,

all with great success.

Now, our key ambition is to partner with schools,

so I'll give you an example.

We would develop their surface for them, upgrade from their tarmac,

again completely free of charge.

In exchange for that, we would ask for a set number of rent-free weeks

to recoup the investment.

The school would then charge us a rental after this investment

is complete, and then receive the revenue as a result of that.

Looking at the figures,

Play Five A Side Ltd, since our inception,

has turned over in excess of £2 million.

Our most recent net profit figure

is £137,000.

In addition to this,

I believe this is an idea that can

really change the shape of Britain.

I look forward to your questions,

and I would like you to come and have a look the surfaces.

Hoping to score big in the Den is Nilesh Pandit,

who's asking for £100,000

in return for a 12.5% stake

in his sports pitch business.

If you score, you invest, come on.

Oh, he missed it!

-I'll have a go.

-Show him how it's done.

-Easy.

-There you are, that's an investment.

Touker Suleyman's on target,

but will Nilesh score a goal with his investment opportunity?

Jenny Campbell is the first Dragon to get the ball rolling.

Tell me a little bit about you, what you've done before,

how you came to this idea.

So, back when I was about 15, 16 years old,

I used to play on a semi-professional level.

Then I had a bit of an ankle break, which led me to take time off,

and I went into education. But it was whilst I was on my internship

where I spotted the gap in this market.

I cannot stand working 9-5:30.

And I can't take direction, couldn't take direction from my bosses.

I found myself very inactive.

Ultimately, I spotted that teams within this company

were playing five a side,

so I decided to set up an internal work league for them.

And the demand was crazy.

Then I went back to university, completed my degree,

and I set up the biggest university football league.

But the pitch development idea is one that's untapped,

and that's the idea that I want to get into.

-Give me a sort of broad-brush costing of...

-OK.

..you see a playground and you go and pitch to the owner of that.

Yeah, sure. So, a typical five a side venue, which could be, say,

-20 metres by 34...

-Mm-hmm.

..could cost anywhere between 17K to 30K.

You said that the business has turned over £2 million so far.

Mm-hmm. And in the last financial year, that was £137,000.

No, that was the net profit. So in the most recent financial year...

-Yes.

-..the turnover was £694,000.

-So it's going great guns.

-Yeah, it's going very well at the moment,

I can't lie. It's very good at the moment.

The healthy numbers have won Nilesh a fan in Jenny Campbell,

but it's going to take more than talk of sizeable profits

to impress Peter Jones.

You're kind of basically a finance house.

I wouldn't say so, but I'll let you continue.

-You'll let me continue?

-Yeah, sorry, I'm not...

I don't finance... In a sense, we'd provide activities.

So why don't you get them to pay for it?

Because a lot of them, they don't have the funding.

I'm not sure if you've read recently,

but a lot of youth services, the sectors,

-have actually had their fundings cut.

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

There's a lot of people playing football,

but you mentioned netball, but you wouldn't play netball on it.

You could. I mean, if you look at the surfaces,

and obviously the line's there...

But they wouldn't play netball on Astroturf.

-Absolutely they would.

-No, they wouldn't.

-Absolutely they would.

-No, they wouldn't.

-100%, they would.

Shall I tell you why they would want to play on Astroturf

-as opposed to tarmac?

-Yeah, I'd love to.

Right, so, you know, women and men, OK, if they're playing on tarmac,

it's a hard surface. Straightaway, it damages your knees.

In addition, we're in quite a rainy country.

If it rains, tarmac - slip and slide.

I do a lot of work with Netball England.

In fact, my daughter actually is in the drafting England squad,

-and I go every single weekend to matches all over the country.

-Mm.

And I can tell you, they will not want to be playing on Astroturf.

-OK, yeah.

-So, having known that,

you didn't even ask me, or even want to entertain why

I might be so knowledgeable about netball.

I can only apologise about that.

Can you answer me the "can't take instruction" bit?

I really want to get past that. So, if I'm suggesting ideas,

and you clearly have a very strong opinion...

-Yeah.

-..where do you go with that?

You have achieved far more than I have,

so I would definitely respect and take the opinions on board.

And what would you do with the opinion, if you didn't still believe

-that I was right?

-I think we would just have a heart to heart,

like we are now, and just say,

"Well, I don't believe it will work because of X, Y, and Z."

You can then come back and say, "Well, actually,

"it should work because of X, Y, and Z."

So it's the respect level again, so I'll always listen to my staff.

OK. I like this Nilesh.

Oh, thank you very much. Sorry about the previous Nilesh.

-He's gone now, he's left.

-Great, that's great.

-Good answer.

-Because this Nilesh is good.

-OK.

It's a strong defence from Nilesh,

who survives a grilling from Peter Jones

to keep the Dragon firmly onside.

But next on the attack is Deborah Meaden,

demanding more detail on those numbers.

What are your retained profits?

So, obviously last year was £137,000.

Prior to that, it was £122,000.

-Yep.

-And the year before that was £157,000.

OK, so I'm trying to square something off here.

Let me understand.

Your capital investment is about £30,000.

-Yeah, right.

-You've got five pitches,

so you've spent £150,000 worth of cash.

-Yeah, mm-hmm.

-You have made £350,000 worth of...

-400.

-£400,000 worth of profit.

-Yeah. Uh-huh.

-Where's the rest of the cash?

So, the cash...

I'm probably not understanding the question too well.

So, you've generated nearly £400,000 worth of profit.

-Yeah.

-You have reinvested about £150,000 into the business.

-Yeah.

-Yeah? Where's the rest of the money?

So what you're saying, what is the difference between 260 and 400?

-Yeah.

-OK, so, basically there's a lot of ongoing maintenance works.

-No, well, that's in your profit and loss.

-Yeah, OK.

Unless you're not showing it in your profit and loss.

-No, no, it should all be shown, but...

-In tax?

Yeah, the tax is all paid up, so...

No, I meant out of the 400 profit, you must have paid tax,

-so that comes off the 400.

-Yeah.

-Is that pre- or post-tax?

No, that's post-tax. Everything's post-tax.

-That's post-tax profit?

-Yes, this is the bottom line.

I get this little switch in me,

and it says something's not working out here.

OK.

Yeah, I'm going to be honest with you, I don't have,

off the top of my head, an answer to that question.

-It's a big number. I'm not going to let...

-Yeah.

You can't just stand there and say,

"Oh, actually, I don't know where that £250,000 is."

-I don't understand. I don't get it.

-OK, well, um...

All right, so a few years back,

there was an HMRC penalty

of around 200K...

GASP

-..which has now been paid off.

-OK, what was that about?

That was ultimately all about literally not

-showing the appropriate...

-Oh.

-..numbers within...

So, to have a penalty of £200,000,

how much did they say you weren't declaring?

Again, I don't know the numbers.

-Sorry, £200,000 tax penalty...

-Mm-hmm.

..and you're telling me you don't know the numbers?

I-I... I'm exasperated.

-Are you hearing these words?

-Yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah.

-OK.

I think I know... No, I know where I am.

-OK.

-Because if I gave you my money...

-Mm-hm?

..I would be absolutely terrified

that you would fail to remember what you'd done with it.

But people do learn from their mistakes, don't you think?

-That much...

-They become stronger... OK.

-That much money.

It is a lot of money, but has that happened again since then?

I have no idea.

I'm really sorry about this, but that's done it for me. I'm out.

Disaster for Nilesh,

as his delay in revealing the reason his books don't balance leads to

a swift exit from Deborah Meaden.

Will Tej Lalvani be any more understanding?

What concerns me is you mention that you've learnt from your mistakes.

And when Deborah was questioning the gap...

..in the accounts, you should have straightaway brought it up, then.

-Yeah.

-But you acted like you had no idea what she was talking about.

-She literally had to drag it out of you...

-Yeah...

..and if you said you've learnt from the mistakes,

that should have been your opportunity to straightaway

explain what the gap was.

I'm afraid I'm out.

OK.

We all make mistakes.

-Of course.

-But there are mistakes, and there are mistakes.

I agree.

However, you were quite open with your figures.

The mistake was made, were made, a long time ago, to be fair.

Fine. Fine, look, the question we're at now is,

am I going to part with my money with you?

The answer is...

..no.

So, I've got to say, I'm not going to invest in you and I'm out.

OK. Thank you.

I think it is very hard to sort of

decide when to pull your skeletons out of the cupboard or not,

because you probably thought, "Well, if I go in and say,

"I had this lesson, then let's move on and talk about the future,

-"would that kill your pitch from the beginning?"

-Yeah.

But there is a moment in time when you, you know,

need to be honest with people.

So just learn that lesson.

You are a very credible young man.

-Thank you.

-And you are running a successful business,

-and hopefully paying all your tax now.

-Yeah, absolutely!

So learn from that.

I'm out.

Four Dragons out,

and it's beginning to look like it's all over for Nilesh.

Peter Jones was previously won over by the entrepreneur's change

of attitude. Will he be the one

to save this rapidly sinking pitch?

We didn't start off on the right foot, and I think that in business,

-people buy people first.

-I agree.

-And I think it's really, really,

-really important that you embrace that today.

-Yeah.

And I'm going to make it slightly worse for you.

I would have invested today.

Because I really like the idea,

I think it's very unique and it's good.

Um...

Is there anything I can do to change your mind?

If you had just been really straight,

that would have been OK with me,

actually, even though it might not have been with others.

OK.

-So I'm going to say that I'm out.

-Thank you.

Peter Jones shows the sports pitch business the red card,

and the driven entrepreneur exits

the Den without the £100,000 investment

he was so confident of securing.

He had a moment to just tell the truth,

and I just had to work too hard. I completely agree with you, Tej.

-I had to work too hard to get it out.

-Everybody makes mistakes.

Unfortunately, I've been penalised for a mistake almost

a million years ago, if you want to think of it in business terms.

I guess they failed to realise that I lost everything,

and I still came back from it.

With £75,000 invested already,

if the total is set to rise...

Unless I'm missing something, I think this is barking mad.

..the remaining entrepreneurs will need to master the basics...

It is a terrible block, Debbie.

Please don't call me Debbie.

..or risk losing everything.

In a year's time, you could be left with diddly squat.

That's a technical term for nothing.

If perseverance was a guarantee for success,

our next entrepreneur would already be a millionaire.

Jason Hamlin first took his invention to market 18 years ago,

and has been trying to make it an industry frontrunner ever since.

It's got huge potential. The product sells itself.

So I'm hoping that the Dragons look at this and go,

"Yes, we could sell this."

And it, potentially, could be sold all over the world.

Jason, you must be mad!

Oh, well, here goes nothing.

Hello, Dragons. My name's Jason Hamlin.

I've got a company called Bikeaway,

and I'm looking for a £600,000 investment

for a 50% share in my company.

Bikeaway sells vertical bike lockers and bike stands.

Now, what's happened in recent years in cycling,

there has been a tremendous increase

in the value of bikes being sold.

And this increase in quality of bikes has led to an increase

in bike theft. Now,

what the police have done to combat this is they have gone to

an organisation called Sold Secure.

And Sold Secure do an attack standard,

so they literally break into something

and they give it a ranking.

They've got a bronze, silver, and gold,

and gold is the highest accolade for cycle security.

And this locker here has got gold.

It's the only one of its type.

Now, big organisations like hospitals,

train stations,

housing associations, they all want secure cycle parking,

because customers are asking for it.

It's a wonderful product for you lot to view

or get involved with if you'd like to and, please,

I'd like to answer any questions that you may have.

A passionate pitch from security-savvy Jason Hamlin,

who's hoping to ride away with a massive £600,000

in return for 50% of his bike locker business.

Jason thinks his invention has what it takes to become a must-have

for cyclists, but does Peter Jones share his vision?

I don't understand. It just looks like an enclosure.

That is just, surely, like a lockable small shed for a bike,

-isn't it?

-It's the design of the locker.

This is a real wolf in sheep's clothing.

-So show me how it works.

-Basically,

there's bolt section behind here with a cut-out,

and this basically pulls into the bolt section.

OK, so when you close the door,

this plate grabs the side panel,

and is held in place with a padlock.

This has got a patent on it as well.

It is very simple, Peter, I totally agree, but that's the beauty of it.

When you lock it, you cannot open that door now.

It is totally jimmy-proof,

because the way that's caught into the side panel,

if you try and go in there with a crowbar...

Have you got a crowbar?

I don't! If you decided to invest, it's a very important point,

because the whole point of this is security.

So I've got to give you £600,000 to see if I can get in it?

No, I'm saying you honestly can't.

If you got into it with ten minutes, you can have your money back again.

A patented product with some pretty impressive security claims

is certainly giving Peter Jones plenty to ponder.

Now, Touker Suleyman wants to lock down the numbers.

You probably know that I'm in the cycling world.

-Yes.

-And I agree with you, people are spending 2,000

5,000, 20,000 on bikes,

and security is a risk.

So, how many have you sold?

I've sold over 10,000 lockers

throughout UK and Ireland since I've started.

Jason, can I ask you a question?

You've asked for £600,000.

What do you need the money for?

At this present time,

I don't need the money.

I need help.

But we do need the money in the future.

But why do you need £600,000 today

if you haven't got a plan for it?

I need the money to build the locker in the future.

Why does it cost £600,000?

To have a factory to build this locker.

You want £600,000 to build a factory?

Yes, but not at day one.

Tej Lalvani struggles to get to

the bottom of how and when a £600,000 investment

would be spent.

The Dragon who made her cash in cashpoints

wants to get to grips with what's propping up

this company's £1.2 million valuation.

-So, last year, you did what in turnover?

-I turned over £300,000.

And your gross profit was what?

Um, 154.

And your net profit?

Uh, I...well, I did a lot of development. It was 24,000.

I know it looks bad. I do understand that.

So...well, I'm glad you've said that!

So, how are you valuing this at £1.2 million now?

I've explored loads of markets, as I say, selling 10,000 altogether,

and I really hope you don't throw your toys out of the pram before

I explain why I've got to where I am.

I'm valuing the business at £600,000.

I am putting that into a pot, if you want,

and you're putting £600,000 in,

and we're going to own that pot 50-50.

Unless I'm missing something, I think this is barking mad.

You're putting in 600,000,

I'm putting in 600,000, so, therefore,

I'm valuing my company at 600...

I am making sense, aren't I?

-No, Jason.

-No, actually, Jason, you're not.

-No, you're not.

Bemusement in the Den, as Jason demonstrates a lack

of grasp on how to calculate his company's valuation.

But luckily, Deborah Meaden's on hand to give him

a masterclass in the numbers.

I think you genuinely think you valued your business at £600,000.

-Am I right?

-500, because I'm putting 100 grand's worth

-of assets in.

-Right, so, could... Please concentrate for a minute.

-Yeah.

-I am paying £600,000 for half of your business.

-Yeah.

-In saying that half of your business is worth £600,000,

all of your business is worth £1.2 million.

So, Deborah, if I sold you 100% of my company,

how much would it cost you?

1.2 million.

OK, so you now own my company,

and it would have 1.2 million in the bank account.

Yes! My 1.2 million...

-Yeah, in your bank account, which you own.

-Jason! That is all...

-Take the 1.2 million out, you've got the company.

-Jason, Jason, Jason.

Stop looking at somebody else because you think they might make

your life easier. Concentrate on me,

because I promise you, you're not talking sense.

Half of your business is worth £600,000,

all of your business is worth £1.2 million.

You need to get that into your head, that's it.

Saying you don't understand that is a little bit of a block.

It is a terrible block, Debbie.

Jason, can I just say that you just called Deborah "Debbie"?

-Did he?!

-Sorry, Deborah.

-Sorry, Peter.

-That's all right.

I haven't heard that for years, it's quite funny.

Please don't call me Debbie.

Jason has won the good humour of Deborah Meaden,

but his refusal to recognise that his numbers don't add up

is no laughing matter.

And Jenny Campbell's ready to hand the task over

to an altogether different group of experts.

Go down the pub tonight,

and have this debate about 600,000 and 1.2 million,

and I'll take a bet on where that will land,

because I can't get past this valuation which is ridiculous.

-Jenny, I'd just like to say...

-It would take me 50 years to repay

my investment on current trading...

-Oh!

-..and I've no idea when I'd see my money again.

-Jenny, you'll have so many sales...

-There's absolutely no

chance I'm sending you £600,000

where you then own 50% of my £600,000 on day one,

-and I might get it back sometime never, so...

-Oh!

..bless you, I'm out.

New Dragon Jenny Campbell shows her bite,

and applies the brakes to Jason's investment dreams.

But Peter Jones is pondering whether his business proposition is

a revolution or a risk.

You might have created the best product that's out there

at the moment, but you don't know what to do with it.

-Is that fair?

-Absolutely nailed it on the head, Peter.

Thank you. The problem is that I needed you to come in

at a much lower level,

and because you haven't, sadly, I'm going to say

-that I'm out.

-Oh, that's a real shame.

You can't tell me today that you're going to use 50 for that,

100 for this, 20 for that,

and I don't feel comfortable parting way with so much money and you don't

know what the money is really going to be used for.

So, for that reason, I'm out.

Actually, I think it's really...

It's neat. The truth of the matter is,

I am worried at the amount of work that you need...

-That is the problem.

-..in the business,

so I'm afraid for that reason, we'll forget the valuation,

or would you like to go over the valuation just one more time?

-Or shall we leave it there?

-Oh, please!

I say...

I say we leave it there!

THEY LAUGH

All right, but anyway, Jason, lovely to meet you but I really,

I won't be investing, so I'm out.

Deborah Meaden becomes the fourth Dragon to exit the deal.

Only Touker Suleyman remains,

and with business interests in a cycling website,

will he choose to go along for the ride?

Touker, can I just have one word before you speak?

-One word?

-Well, one sentence.

-You've got ten seconds.

OK. If you invested in me, Touker, your money is safe.

You own half the business, and if we don't do the sales,

which I know you can do, you can have all your money back,

and we'll go our separate ways.

You seem like a very knowledgeable person in this field.

Very passionate. If you'd come in here and said,

"Touker, I want £50,000, and there's 25, 30%",

because I'm in this field, I'd say,

"You know something? There's a punt."

But to come here and say you want £600,000,

I'm very sorry, I'm out, but I wish you all the best.

Jason's commitment to his product won the praise of Touker Suleyman,

but he couldn't convince the Dragons of his company's worth,

and he leaves the Den empty-handed.

-Wow, £600,000.

-Bless him, he could have been here all day,

and we would have gone in circles.

They were fair, they were fair. I knew I was asking a lot.

The stumbling block for them was I valued my company,

I believed it was 600,000.

But I'm obviously wrong.

Now, everybody loves a bargain, and our final entrepreneurs

have developed a website that taps right into that.

Best friends Ben Corrigan and Jonny Plein have big dreams

for their voucher codes business,

and they're looking for a Dragon to help make them a reality.

When Ben first came to me with the idea for our business,

it wasn't so much a "should we do this?",

it was like, "Great, when are we getting started?"

We'd be happy, really, with any of the Dragons,

but certainly Peter Jones would be our number one.

But with the new Dragons also keen to spend,

will the Den prove to be a gateway to success?

Hello, Dragons, thank you for your time. I'm Ben, this is Johnny,

and we're really excited to show you our new online shopping tool,

Pouch.

Last year, in the UK, 840 million people

searched for voucher codes, and it's really easy to understand why,

because we've all been there before,

at the checkout page, about to enter our card details,

when we see that box that says, "Do you have a voucher code?"

So, what do you do? If you're anything like us,

you end up leaving the site you're on,

going on some wild goose chase throughout the internet,

trying to find a voucher code that may or may not even exist.

So, we created a browser extension

that automatically sources all the best

available and valid voucher codes, and presents them to you

at the checkout page of the website you're on.

And here's how it works. You'll immediately see that our icon

sits in the top right-hand corner of your screen,

and at the checkout page, simply click on our icon.

A drop-down list of all the available offers will appear,

select the offer you wish to redeem,

and paste the code into the voucher code box to get your discount.

It's easy to see why online shoppers love a tool like Pouch.

But we're actually solving a very serious problem for retailers

as well, because they spend millions of pounds every year driving traffic

to their website, only for 75%

of all online shopping baskets to be abandoned.

And leaving to search for a voucher code is a major cause of this.

And that's why, in only a few months, we've already built

commercial relationships with 2,500 UK retailers.

In exchange for 15% of our business,

we're seeking £75,000 of investment.

Thank you for listening, and we look forward to your questions.

A website that puts voucher codes directly into your online shopping

basket is the offering from school chums Ben Corrigan and Jonny Plein,

who are looking for £75,000 in return for 15% of the company.

Deborah Meaden is keen to find out how this money-saving venture could

line the pockets of an investor.

So, how do you make your money?

So, it's quite simple. We get paid a commission from the retailer for

every sale that we incentivise,

so when a user uses one of our voucher codes,

and then goes on to make the successful purchase,

we're paid a commission from that.

-Just so I completely understand how it works...

-Yeah, sure.

..so, when I'm sitting there,

am I automatically going to be offered Pouch,

or do I have to have a relationship with Pouch,

so that when I go to click my buy button, it says,

-"Do you know about these codes?"

-Exactly, so you need to have

-downloaded Pouch first from our website.

-Right.

Once you've downloaded Pouch, when you're on a checkout page,

we notify you with that small box that Ben demonstrated.

It means there's less shopping cart abandonment for retailers,

and shoppers that want to have voucher codes have them there.

-I do totally, totally recognise the problem.

-Mm-hmm.

I will go on three websites looking for a pair of shoes,

and leave the basket open on two and then go looking for voucher codes.

You said that 75% of shopping baskets are abandoned,

and I thought, "Wow, that's real, is it? That 75% never go to checkout?"

Yeah. So, 75% is an industry average, but some are much higher.

Travel, for instance is 85% abandonment.

So, it's clear that this is a problem

that retailers are paying for.

Ben and Jonny have all the answers so far,

which has impressed multimillionaire bargain hunter Jenny Campbell.

But the Den's technology mogul thinks he's heard it all before.

How long did it take to develop it?

-Eight months.

-Because this isn't new.

The way that you've pitched it, I kind of got the feeling that,

actually, this isn't out at the moment.

We're the only people in the UK doing this.

There are a couple of people in the US doing it very successfully,

but we're the only ones in the UK.

Can you tell me about the size of those competitors?

Yeah, so, there's really two,

maybe three people doing it.

Two that we take seriously, one that's doing very well.

They have 4.5 million users.

And they are estimating that 15 billion

will be transacted through their platform this year.

News that similar outfits in the US

are bringing in the big bucks is music to the ears

of new Dragon Tej Lalvani.

Now Peter Jones is curious to find out if Pouch's business potential

is reflected in its owners' pay packets.

What salaries are you taking?

I take £500 a month, Ben takes £800 a month.

It's not feasible for people as skilled as you,

and as this business grows, not to be able to afford a sandwich a day.

Sure.

And on £500 a month...

-We're really cool, we live with our parents, so...

-Yeah.

Yeah, and do you know what? That is really cool. But my point is,

you need to think now about how you are going to raise more money,

and then think about, actually, at the end of the day,

what's going to be left in your pouch?

Because, in a year's time, you could be left with diddly squat.

That's a technical term for nothing.

Tech giant Peter Jones provides a reality check on the entrepreneurs'

ambitious plans.

And online fashion magnate Touker Suleyman

wants to question what this app means for his big brand names.

-We are in a retail world...

-Mm.

..that online is full of discounting.

If more and more retailers are discounting,

because it's tough out there,

consumers will get their discount directly from the retailer,

not from Push, or whatever you call yourselves.

-Pouch, yeah.

-So, therefore, you know, you're fighting retailers.

-I mean, I would disagree, because...

-You would disagree?

I would disagree.

Well, firstly, we haven't... We've done quite well so far in terms

of relationships, so 2,500 retailers

get the concept and approve it.

Because we sit in the browser,

we have an incredible amount

of very useful data about a user's propensity to purchase

and their buying habits.

So eventually we want to be able to speak to a retailer and go,

"This user is a 45-year-old woman from Birmingham

"who has bought three at your competitors in the last week.

"We should give her a 15% discount" - in real-time.

That is the end goal, but in order to get there...

That's been done already.

No, it hasn't. They don't sit in the browsers.

And they're not embedded on enough websites.

We're embedded on every single website.

Touker Suleyman's concern

about the appeal of the website to the retailers

is deftly defended by Ben and Jonny.

But has it been enough to convince their preferred Dragon to add

the business to his technology stable?

My big issue is the fact that there is a big concern over the amount

of money that you need to raise to make this successful.

I think you need to raise well into seven figures or more...

..this year, to have a chance.

This is going to take a lot of time, and this would need me to...

..to get involved and really get behind it.

Erm...

So, that's why, erm...

..I'm going to make you an offer.

Because I'd like to get involved, and...

..it's got me excited because I know that I could

make this happen for us.

-But it's going to come at a price.

-Mm-hmm.

I'm going to make you an offer of all of the money...

..but for 25%.

An offer, and from the Dragon the entrepreneurs want on their team.

But it comes with a sting in its tail.

They'll have to give away a quarter of their company to secure him.

Will seeing the Den's technology expert make a bid

incentivise Deborah Meaden to make a competing offer?

I'm not a technology expert.

But I do get the consumer side of things, and whether we like it or

not, we're living in this world, increasing world,

of discount and the consumer wanting to get the very best deal, and I

completely understand, as a consumer,

why I would want to use you.

So...

..I'm going to make you an offer.

And I'm going to offer you all of the money...

..and I want 20% of the business.

Sorry, my heart just fluttered a little bit there.

So did mine!

THEY LAUGH

Pulses are racing in the Den, as in a bid to woo the entrepreneurs,

Deborah Meaden asks for a lower equity stake than her rival Dragon.

Will Touker Suleyman be tempted to take on the business

and his fellow Dragons?

-I've got a couple of investments...

-Mm-hmm.

..in behavioural marketing.

-Yeah.

-Sure.

-I think if you guys put your heads together...

..they could help you with their technology.

I'd like to give you half the money for 10%,

but I'm also throwing in five brands.

-Oh.

-So you would pick up five brands immediately...

-Amazing.

-..as customers.

All I want is one more Dragon to have the same vision as I've got,

so I will add value...

..not just be a passive investor.

Fantastic.

Ben, Jonny,

I'm passionate about technology.

I understand what you guys are doing,

and I believe there's a massive potential,

and we've got my brand, Vitabiotics, which we do a huge amount

of advertising that can be plugged straight in with all our

individual 15 brands under that.

I'm happy to match Touker's offer.

Erm...10% for half the money.

-Thank you very much.

-Amazing. Tej, thank you.

Tej Lalvani joins forces with retail tycoon Touker Suleyman,

to try and clinch the deal.

Four multimillionaires are now vying for the business.

Will Jenny Campbell make it a royal flush?

I love this. I think also you're very, very investable guys

and you've done everything that an entrepreneur should do,

which is, you know, risk everything, pay yourself poorly,

live with parents and all that kind of stuff.

So...

..I would like to make you an offer.

And I come to you as, you know, one of the new Dragons in the Den

with a blank sheet of paper and lots of energy

and a capacity to support you.

So I'm going to make you an offer of what you asked for.

All of the money for 15%.

Thank you very much.

Can we go to the...?

-The wise wall.

-The wise wall.

A major coup for Ben and Jonny,

as all five Dragons want a piece of Pouch.

Peter Jones is offering all the money

for a hefty 25% of the company.

Deborah Meaden wants 20% and Jenny Campbell 15.

Touker Suleyman and Tej Lalvani

are willing to share the deal at 10% each.

I want three of them involved, and I want them to have 6% each.

The entrepreneurs are now firmly

in the driving seat and, unusually, it's

the investors who must sweat it out.

OK, OK.

Thank you, thank you all so much for your offers.

This is genuinely a dream come true, and...

..I want to propose a counter-offer.

So,

we're happy to go to 18%...

..and I would like that split between three Dragons.

Firstly, Touker,

6% from yourself, from the addition of, you know,

your ecommerce experience and the brands you can add.

Tej, 6% from yourself, again, the brands you can add.

And Deborah, I felt we had a good rapport,

made a lot of eye contact...

..but Jenny...

..because of the time that you have,

we're looking for that guidance and we're looking, you know,

for that expertise and we may need some more time, so,

if it's acceptable to Touker, Jenny and Tej...

..6% each, for 18% of Pouch.

Hmm.

I would do the 6%,

if my other fellow two Dragons would agree the same, of course.

So, I welcome the increased offer.

-Brilliant.

-Tej?

Let's do it.

-Fantastic. Thank you very much.

-Shake hands.

-Thank you.

-Amazing.

A thrilling finish, as the duo leave with the £75,000 investment

in their pouch, and the Den's longest-serving Dragons

are left to lick their wounds.

Thank you for your offers as well.

-I wouldn't have done it at 6% so you're fine.

-OK!

-Thank you, guys.

-Cheers. Thank you.

Oh, my God.

THEY LAUGH

All five Dragons!

Hug!

Really, it couldn't have gone better. Couldn't have gone better.

-I think that was quite a wise move.

-Yeah.

-I'm not disappointed.

Much.

They've just made the best investment they've ever made

in their lives, so congratulations to them, really.

-Yeah.

-Pretty much.

-We firmly believe that, so.

-Yeah. So well done.

Well, confidence goes a long way in business, and we saw it help Ben

and Jonny convince all the Dragons

to compete for a slice of their company.

Such a different story for Julianne and Matthew, who entered the Den so

nervous, but still managed to negotiate a deal

with the formidable Deborah Meaden,

proving that there's no predicting who'll get investment in

Dragons' Den.

-Cheers.

-Cheers.

Coming up this series...

Do a full job, Touker.

One of your legs looks alive.

I think it's only fair that you're in there with me, Deborah.

If you'd like to all go and sit down, we'll just stay here.

If you do not get a Dragon to invest today, you're in trouble.

I actually think you're wasting everyone's time.

You've said that we're not listening,

and I haven't actually said anything yet.

Never stand in front of anybody and say, "You're better than me."

I think you're very investable.

You've done a fantastic job.

I'm the one Dragon that could take you to where you want to go.

As one of the new Dragons, I come with a blank sheet of paper.

-Excuse me.

-It's my piece now.

No, I'm defending my position.

I have no interest in sharing it.

I'm a selfish Dragon.

This is powerful.

Oh! Sorry!