Episode 10 Dragons' Den

The Dragons are back and they're all fired up to build on their empires.

I think we've got a winner.

Now, be careful what you say.

But which of the entrepreneurs will show true grit?

You're very, very competent and presentable and determined.

You've got a great product.

-You're great.

-Who will be on shaky ground?

You've made a fatal error.

How many have you sold, John?

I haven't actually sold any.

Who will rock the foundations of the Den?

I am honestly, genuinely stunned.

-You've gone 30, 25...

-Cos I don't want you to have it!

Who will cement a lucrative partnership?

-I'm the Dragon for you.

-I think you've got a great product.

I'm going to make you an offer.

But I'm going to be greedy.

And who will buckle under the pressure of the Den?

I am so sorry, but I am going to pass out.

I don't know why. I'm seeing only black.

Welcome to Dragons' Den, back in business and fierier than ever.

We have a new batch of nervous entrepreneurs

desperate to impress the formidable Dragons,

putting the finishing touches

to what they hope will be the elevator pitch of a lifetime.

First into the Den is John Boff,

a former bricklayer who is hoping to build a relationship with a Dragon.

HE SIGHS

This opportunity today is probably the biggest moment of my life,

other than marrying my wife,

and a little bit scary, to be honest with you.

Hello, Dragons. My name's John Boff and I'm the proud owner

of the adjustable mortarboard.

I'm here today for £25,000 investment

for 15% equity within the company.

Having worked in the construction industry for over 38 years,

and 27 of those years actively working as a bricklayer,

I personally know the stress and strains this trade has on your body.

Traditionally, bricklayers will get bricks, stack them,

then put a wooden mortarboard on there.

It was only when we were building an extension on my house,

and with my wife being actively involved in doing the building work

with me, she questioned what was I doing.

When I explained it's to try and get it up as high as I can

to stop the bending so much.

She simply said, "Well, isn't there anything to attach this

"to a scaffolding that could be easily adjusted?"

And that's when the adjustable mortarboard was born.

We designed, manufactured a bracket that would fit all types of

scaffolding and could be easily adjusted up and down to suit

the individual bricklayer's heights.

We put it on trial at Swansea University campus,

and it was a fantastic result.

It turned out, using the EcoSpot,

reduced musculoskeletal injuries by 70%.

Plus, everybody says to me,

"How come nobody's thought of it before?"

Would any of you Dragons care to try and have a go?

-I would. Yeah, I would.

-Do we get to lay a brick?

I'll have a go.

A solid pitch from John Boff,

offering an adjustable mortarboard

to make bricklaying less backbreaking.

-Is that right?

-Yes.

-Is that right or not?

-Yes, yes.

No, it's very good for your first effort.

SHE LAUGHS

The ex-brickie is looking for £25,000...

-Oh, dear.

-Don't worry.

-Never mind.

..in exchange for 15% of his company.

An average bricklayer will bend down 2,000 times

to retrieve mortar alone.

-Yeah, I feel that on my back already.

-There you go.

-I think we've got a winner.

-Now, be careful what you say

-because that's...

-No, no, I didn't mean it like that.

Yeah, no, I think you'll find that you...

Keep all your options open.

No, no, I didn't mean it like that!

-I'd say everyone done very well there.

-Yeah.

With its test run concluded,

Peter Jones is ready to lay down his initial thoughts on the product.

I mean, basically it looks like a massive paella, doesn't it?

Yes, it's a spot board.

-Yeah.

-Yeah. And the idea, it's round so people don't walk

-into the edges of it.

-No, I think roundness is really good.

Why wouldn't you just have that on taller legs?

Cos people trip over it. It's a trip hazard as well.

-How many have you got?

-We've got 90 at the moment.

-90?

-Yeah.

-So, how many have you sold, John?

We... I... I haven't actually sold any.

I've got them out on a hire basis.

It doesn't sound a lot. But we hire them out for a pound a day, and then

the construction companies hold them,

and then when they've finished, they off-hire them,

we take them back to the house, get them cleaned down,

and then they're re-sprayed up and transferred on.

And that's all done at our house.

-A pound?

-I know.

Only a pound. I'm just thinking to myself...

-Why not more?

-Why not £2?

Don't you think that a pound a day is cheap?

It's deliberately cheap

because I want to get it out on the marketplace.

OK, so how much money have you made, John?

What's been your revenue in your first year of trading?

Well, right, OK. You need to just understand I work full-time

at the moment as a senior construction manager,

and this is done purely through evenings and on weekends.

No, John, this sounds to me that this might be a justification

-for a really low number.

-Well, it's... £20,000 was our turnover.

You've turned over £20,000?

Yeah.

Wow.

Peter Jones is stunned that hiring out John's boards

reaps such big cash rewards.

Deborah Meaden has a track record in backing products

in the building industry. Is this another chance

to lay the foundations of a successful partnership?

-This is not a DIY-style product at all, is it?

-No, no, it's not.

-It's not.

-So, your individual bricklayer, I completely get,

is never going to put their hands in their pockets and say,

-"Here you are, you know, I'm going to..."

-They're not.

-I wouldn't... I wouldn't.

-Of course you wouldn't.

But the big construction companies, they spend fortunes,

so why would you not think about selling them these?

If that's a good idea, I'm open to sell them.

The only reason I have withheld the thought of selling them is -

A, the cost. I wouldn't really want to pay that much.

And, B, how long they last.

If I sold one of those boards there and a bracket,

you're probably looking seven or eight years before you're probably

looking to do anything back and get another one.

So, on a building site that, for instance, is building

200, 300 houses, how many of these would be needed?

You're looking about 40 bricklayers.

The Den's queen of construction, Deborah Meaden,

senses an opportunity to establish a market

for the entrepreneur's product.

Now Tej Lalvani wants to know if John's protected his potentially

ground-breaking invention.

I'd like to find out have you got a patent on this?

The design's registered for an adjustable mortarboard.

So you haven't got a patent?

The design's patent is registered, yes.

So the design registration, as you know, doesn't really cover it.

You know, someone else could come with a different type of base.

They could come, instead of a tripod, four-leg base.

It's an adjustable, it's designed for the adjustable mortarboard.

So, someone could make an adjustable one but just looked different,

and they could bypass your design registration.

Not under my understanding. I might be misunderstood.

-Yeah, a patent can protect...

-My understanding was

I've registered the design of an adjustable mortarboard,

and they've taken, sort of...

In the patent is the board itself being adjusted,

and that's what we've got protected.

-Yeah, I think if you change...

-In my understanding.

-Yeah,

-I think you're not as protected as you probably think.

-Right.

-And I share Tej's concerns.

-I've got it there if you want

-to have a look to see what...

-I wouldn't mind just having...

I wouldn't mind understanding what...

Cos you feel very confident about your protection.

-If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

-Don't worry.

-I'd like to put it right if...

-I know. I want to be really...

I want to be clear on what you've got so...

Yeah. Yeah. You're the experts.

Lack of a concrete patent could be a deal-breaker in the Den.

But, while John awaits his fate on the paperwork,

Peter Jones has a confession.

When you first came in and demonstrated this,

I almost thought it was bizarre and it was going to be a bit of fun.

I can't believe I'm about to say this,

but it clearly does...it works.

My personal sense about all of this is that this idea and concept

lives or dies by the protection you believe you've got.

If you have a patent that gives you full protection on that,

this could change the construction industry forever.

I think you could have a highly valuable business.

So, I'm going to sit quietly and just listen to Deborah's verdict.

OK.

Uh, so, it is a straight certificate of registration of design.

It's not in any way a patent.

It is very specific over the design of that particular...

-Right.

-..way of doing it.

And I have a feeling that you could be the person who invented

the next big safety thing for building sites

who doesn't make a lot of money out of it.

Oh, this is a real lesson.

This is a real, real lesson.

Why did you not go down the patent route?

It's not too late. I thought I had safe...safeguarded it.

Well, it is too late because it's out in the public domain.

-Right, OK.

-Sadly, I don't think you're going to be the one

who makes the big money out of this.

-OK.

-That helps me make up my mind, John.

Hearing that from Deborah is a blow, isn't it?

-Yeah.

-So, sadly, John,

I'm going to have to say that that's one of the reasons why...

-..I'm going to make you an offer.

-Oh, brilliant.

I'm going to offer you...

..part of the money...

..because I think if you had several Dragons, it could work.

But I think it's more than that.

I do think that you've got an opportunity

of putting several thousand of these

into the construction industry,

and that means that I would get my money back very quickly,

and I've got pretty much low risk.

So, I'm going to offer you...

..£5,000 of your 25 that you need...

..for 7.5% of your business.

Peter Jones rescues the pitch from near disaster,

proposing a split deal.

But John needs the rest of the Dragons

to match his £5,000 bid to make it work.

Will Touker Suleyman help engineer a deal?

John, I think you need a break, and you're good.

-OK.

-And, in my view...

..I could quite easily say, "I'll give you all the money."

But I would join with Peter, I'd also put up £5,000 for 7.5%.

Touker Suleyman matches Peter Jones's offer.

The investment is coming together with £10,000

of the 25,000 John needs.

But will the remaining three Dragons be in the mood to indulge in

some constructive capitalism?

John, I too could offer the whole money and would kind of love that

as well.

But I think there's something really powerful about putting more

Dragons behind this for everything that they bring.

So, I will join the merry team of Dragons and offer you £5,000

for 7.5%.

Thank you.

-Hi, John.

-Hi.

-I think that you'd be a delight to work with.

Your passionate energy. You believe in this product.

And I think that's a great sign.

I'd like to make you an offer too. I'd like to offer you...

..5,000 for 7.5%.

Thank you.

With four equal bids,

John just needs Deborah Meaden

to complete the dream team of five Dragons.

But is she willing to make it a full house?

I sometimes think the power of more Dragons is very, very powerful.

But in this instance, I don't.

You need to speak to the people

who make decisions all day, every day on those sites

about how they're going to run them.

I have businesses that are in there with products on test right now,

all of the big builders.

Right.

So, I'm going to make you an offer, but I'm going to be greedy.

It's for all of the money.

And I want 35% of the business.

Deborah Meaden wrecks the plan for a five-Dragons deal by going it alone

and undercutting her rivals.

It's put John in a tricky spot.

He's got a rock-solid individual offer,

but the joint proposal's falling apart.

At the moment, I've got two offers, as far as I understand.

It's clearly not working cos the rest don't add up to the money.

So, John, as we don't have a complete team of Dragons

wanting to share this,

I propose that we split this now between four Dragons.

-Yes, I would.

-I would, yeah.

-Yeah.

-Why do you want more?

Well, to have one is fantastic.

Thank you all very much to start off with, OK?

So, to have more is just like everybody's dream if you come

-into the Den.

-But it isn't, is it? That's my point.

-Yeah, yeah.

I'm worried now.

-No, don't, don't be worried.

-Go and talk to the wall.

-I don't want to sway you.

-No, no, no, I've got no interest

in talking to the wall.

John's seen enough brick walls and prefers to make a tough decision

while looking the Dragons in the eye.

Will he opt for the power of four investors,

or just one that's well-connected in the building trade?

I'm really torn here.

Really, so you all know, this isn't like, "Oh, it's an easy decision."

And it's a life-changing decision, as far as I'm concerned.

It's not done lightly. You know,

I respect every single Dragon that's in here, and I'd be foolish not to.

But if the offer is that...

..I'd take Deborah, please.

Good. Good.

-I'm so pleased.

-Thank you very much.

-I'm so pleased.

-Thank you.

-Well done, John.

-Sorry, everybody.

-Good luck.

-Well done, John.

-Cheerio!

SHE LAUGHS

After nearly 30 years laying bricks on building sites,

John leaves the Den with £25,000 in his back pocket to take his

adjustable mortarboard to new heights.

I thought... Until that point, I thought he had his mind right.

I don't think that was the right decision.

Oh, shut up! Well, I don't agree.

I feel absolutely over the moon.

I can't stop smiling.

I can't believe it. I can't wait to tell my wife!

Next to face the Dragons

is entrepreneur and mother of two Colleen Wong from London

with a business creation that's close to her heart.

This is my third baby, and so it's something I'm really proud of.

Being a mum and running a start-up, the two go hand-in-hand.

It's multitasking and having no sleep.

Hello, Dragons. My name is Colleen Wong

and I'm the founder of Techsixtyfour.

It was about 18 months ago I took my two little kids to a farm park

and I witnessed a mum running around looking everywhere for her son.

So, I thought to myself, "Oh, my goodness, that could have been me.

"And why are we not more connected to our younger children?"

My solution is the Gator Watch.

It's this watch here.

So, it looks like a watch, but it actually makes and

receives calls from up to ten trusted numbers.

It's also a tracker.

It has no access to the internet, social media, or games.

Last year, in the fall, I began to work with a technology distributor,

and my Gator Watch is now sold at Bentalls in Kingston,

on Amazon and John Lewis online.

The watch retails for £99...

..and there's also a service plan with it.

It's £9 a month on an annual contract,

or £11 a month without a contract.

Today, I'm looking for £100,000 of investment for 5% of my business.

I'd like to give you all a Gator Watch, if that's all right,

to take a look at.

Hoping her product has the bite to snare a Dragon is Colleen Wong.

-Thank you.

-She's seeking £100,000 for 5% of her children's watch,

phone and tracker.

Retail expert Touker Suleyman is first to explore

what makes the business tick.

When did you get the idea, and how did you execute the samples?

So, I had the idea in September of 2015,

and I knew that it would cost an extreme amount of money

to design a product from scratch.

And so I picked one manufacturer in China and I began working with them.

-£2 million valuation on it?

-Yes.

I'm assuming you have some IP, or something very unique,

to create such a valuation.

Because I had gone to a manufacturer who had manufactured this product...

-Right.

-OK?

-They own the IP.

Right, you don't own the IP?

Not for this, no.

After speaking to IP lawyers,

I realised that once a product is already out in the marketplace,

you can no longer obtain the IP for it.

This was a product... So, for example, wearable GPS tracker,

that's also a phone, was already in the market.

And you've sold how many so far, in total?

-400.

-400...

-Slightly over 400.

..at £99?

So, costs, how much?

So, it costs 55, so it works out to be about just under £50.

Already there's a problem.

If your cost is 50...

..and you're retailing at 99,

another retailer would want to pay 37, 38,

40 for it, so already you can't wholesale it.

It's a shaky start for Colleen

as Touker Suleyman exposes the limitations of her sales model.

But dad-of-two Tej Lalvani is more interested in how smart

the child-friendly watch is.

-Is it waterproof?

-It's splash proof.

So, a kid can't use it in a swimming pool?

-No.

-OK.

-But he can...

-OK, so a bit of rain... Rain, we're protected.

-Rain is fine.

-Yeah.

-And can it receive text messages?

-No.

So, when you said that there's a data plan on it,

-what's the data plan for?

-It's for GPS tracking and Wi-Fi tracking.

So you can't send a message to your kid if you want them to read it?

No.

You've made a fatal error walking into this Den

with a £2 million valuation.

I think not only does it say a lot about the company,

but it says a lot about you.

And that makes me unsure about you as a person to invest in.

A bitter blow for Colleen as Tej Lalvani hands out

a damning assessment of her company price tag.

A subject that has also rendered Deborah Meaden a little dumbfounded.

I'm a bit stunned by the £2 million valuation.

Peter, can I ask you,

how long would it take me to find somebody to just go and buy these

and do the same sort of deal?

-By the end of tomorrow?

-By the end of tomorrow.

-So there's no barrier to entry?

-No.

If I could explain the reason for my 2 million valuation.

So, I work closely with my distributor,

and we've worked together to determine what our forecasts are

for sales up till the end of the year.

But I'm going to have to stop you here.

I'm really... I am honestly, genuinely stunned.

You are forecasting in markets that I can get into just like that.

Peter's telling me I could get this product by end of play tomorrow.

It's actually a bit of a cheeky valuation.

Valuations are a combination of either track record,

barriers to entry,

you can do something much faster than I could possibly ever do it,

IP that says you can't even enter this market without me.

Which bit of that have you got?

Well, I've been working with my manufacturer in China,

and he's seeing that the brand is growing here in the UK.

We've come to an agreement that we are going to join together

-and jointly own the IP.

-Sorry, the brand is growing.

You've sold 400 watches.

But you value your business at £2 million,

which I'm getting more annoyed as I even say it.

Deborah Meaden takes exception

to the company's seven-figure valuation.

Now Jenny Campbell wants to know

how vital Colleen is to the business set-up.

Can I just understand,

you've got the manufacturer in China owns the IP.

Why do they need you?

What do you add to that?

Because the manufacturer doesn't speak English.

-And you speak Chinese?

-I speak fluent Chinese, yes.

OK, all right. So you're a linchpin in terms of making that happen?

-Yes.

-OK.

-There's a little USP, but it is replicable.

-Obviously.

-Of course.

-You talked about jointly sharing the IP

with the Chinese manufacturer.

Well, I worked with them to improve the design, to improve the app,

and so I do have a letter of intent from the Chinese manufacturer.

OK.

Could there be traction in the pitch after all,

as Jenny Campbell uncovers the entrepreneur's evolving

relationship with her partners?

Time for tech giant Peter Jones to reveal whether there's a place

for the gadget in his business empire.

I don't really know what more to say,

because it's the first time,

I think, this has happened in the Den.

I don't know whether you realise, but you have actually nothing.

Literally nothing.

There's over 120 different products of this variant.

My offices in Hong Kong have over 30 of these types of products.

What you've done is you've taken a manufacturer and you've arranged to

have agreement that you could sell their product.

You've become now a glorified sales agent.

And then you've introduced a distributor into the margin chain.

If that's the case...

But it's a winning situation for myself as well to be able

to test that this product does sell.

-Is that wrong?

-No. No, it's great for you because you've got a job.

But you haven't got a business.

I don't feel like I'm a glorified sales agent.

You know, the relationships that I've built

with the manufacturer,

and with their willingness

to want to work together with me in the future.

In the future, but you're asking for investment today in a business which

doesn't exist. You're asking for us to value your sales skills

at £2 million.

That's why I'm saying I'm out.

Peter Jones imparts his devastating verdict

on the entrepreneur's business opportunity.

And more bad news is on its way as Deborah Meaden revisits that thorny

issue of how much Colleen thinks her company's worth.

You're so off the scale on your valuation

that it is a bit worrying about

how you're going to run the rest of the business.

OK. Another part of the valuation that I've been, you know,

told to look at are similar companies and their valuations.

So, a company by the name of Tinitell...

-Yeah.

-They do a wearable mobile phone and tracker as well.

-Yeah.

-And three years ago, at prototype stage,

-they were valued at 6 million.

-Yeah.

Did they own any IP?

-Yes, they did.

-Yeah.

Were they first to market?

-They were one of the first to market, yes.

-Tick.

That's my point!

Yes, I totally understand that,

and that is why I need to join together

with the manufacturer and work together and jointly own the IP.

Yeah, but that's not what you're doing here today.

You're telling me you're worth £2 million.

If you even knocked a nought off the end of that,

it still wouldn't be worth it,

so I'm really sorry, I won't be investing, I'm out.

Despite the entrepreneur's valiant effort to justify her valuation,

Deborah Meaden is the second Dragon to reject the deal.

But will the pendulum swing Colleen's way,

as a previously positive Jenny Campbell

is next to declare her hand?

You're very, very competent and presentable and determined.

You may have a business from this in the future, but it's all future.

But it's not an investment at this stage.

So for that reason, I wish you good luck, but I'm out.

I think you need to be very, very careful

because even as a sales agent,

if you don't sign that joint-venture agreement with your supplier,

he could very easily go straight to the distributor...

..and say, "Well, we don't need Colleen."

Unfortunately, I don't think it's investable, so I'm out.

Four Dragons down.

Now only Touker Suleyman can turn

the struggling entrepreneur's fortunes around.

I think you've got a long way to go.

I honestly believe, go away, look at the watch,

what else can you add to it that's unique,

that you could then have an IP to?

And then you might have a company worth a few hundred thousand pounds.

But definitely not 2 million.

There's no way I'm going to invest.

I'm out.

Thank you.

Time's up for Colleen, and she leaves the Den empty-handed,

scuppered by her company's price tag.

That's the trouble with crazy valuations.

-2 million.

-Crazy!

-Wow.

I didn't come up with a valuation out of thin air.

You know, it had a lot of research behind it.

In regards to Peter Jones's comment, you have to start somewhere.

I am building a business.

So far, all the Dragons have been fighting to invest.

-I'm so pleased.

-Thank you very much.

Now the Den's about to get a whole lot tougher.

I think it's a little bit messy.

You haven't shown the business acumen that comes with this.

What's going on now? Are you feeling pressure?

Yes. It's throwing all the numbers out of my head.

But there's still time for deals to be struck.

You are highly investable as an individual.

I know we can both add value.

I'm going to make you an offer.

Entrepreneurs often get the inspiration for their products

from the most unexpected of places.

None more so than Jonathan Newman,

who has looked to the stars in search of his space-age offering.

My product is utilising the same technology that Nasa uses.

But it's something that the everyday consumer can have in their bag.

He's hoping the Den will be his launch pad...

..and its countdown to liftoff.

My name is Jonathan Newman

and I'm here looking for £75,000

for 7.5% of my company Giving Tree Ventures.

We make a range of uber-healthy freeze-dried fruit

and vacuum-fried vegetable crisps

using the same technology that Nasa uses to prepare food

for astronauts.

This innovative process works by removing the moisture

from the product but leaving the nutritional content

completely intact.

Freeze-drying is a multimillion category in the States,

and it's making its way to the UK.

We are currently stocked in Wholefoods, Planet Organic,

Ocado, Holland & Barrett, over 200 Spar petrol stations across the UK,

and we also export to 13 countries.

In our first year of trading, we turned over £230,000.

And my aim going forward, with your help,

is to conquer the UK major multiple supermarkets where scale and volume

can really be achieved.

So, thank you very much for listening

and I'd be delighted to bring you

some samples to taste.

-I get the whole tray?

-No, just grab one. Just grab one bowl.

-Oh, I'll just grab one.

Offering dehydrated fruit and veg inspired by astronauts,

Jonathan Newman's looking for £75,000 for 7.5% of his company.

-What is that?

-That's mango.

The Dragons are certainly making short work of testing the product.

Now Deborah Meaden's keen to begin a discovery mission

into the cosmic crisps.

-I LOVE these.

-Thank you.

So, to be clear, because there's dry product around.

Do you claim this is healthier?

-Yes.

-OK.

And that's because of the process?

Absolutely, yeah. All that's being removed is the moisture.

Because there's no moisture, bacteria can't grow.

So you get up to 18 months' shelf life,

and you get no nutritional loss.

So, does this use no chemical at all?

None whatsoever. What I would say is where we excel is in taste and

quality. We're the only ones experimenting with, you know,

superfood vegetables like broccoli and pumpkin.

Jonathan, it tastes really good.

-Thank you.

-But part of me is thinking it tastes so good

because, if you look at this packet, it's 40% fat content.

Well, the only added ingredient in the broccoli and the pumpkin

is 2% rice bran oil. That's it.

But you're marketing this as a health snack.

But at 40% fat, to me that doesn't seem healthy at all.

Well, I mean, look, fats appear in food naturally and there's obviously

good fats as well, and traditionally crisps are fried in some not very

nice oils in very high temperatures.

So, what you're getting here is something which is not oily,

done at a low temperature.

I think it is oily.

I mean, if you look at the broccoli, when you pick it up,

your hands, your fingers get quite oily.

Jonathan's snack is proving too fatty

for health magnate Tej Lalvani.

And Peter Jones thinks he may have spotted another potential sticking

point with the product.

I noticed the product is made in Thailand at the moment.

-Yeah.

-And why is that?

Freeze-drying, it's a prohibitively expensive...

..process to make.

I looked at a lot of co-packers in Europe.

The cost of goods was way too high.

What's the love of Thailand?

The reason is, is because I was there during the tsunami.

Literally, I missed it by one boat.

You know, the boat behind me capsized.

-Seriously?

-Yeah. Yeah.

But that's another story.

But while I was there, I fell in love with coconut water.

So I launched a company making raw organic coconut water.

-What happened to that company?

-I still run that company.

However, I am

having a conversation about a potential

majority shareholding of that

company with strategic partners.

And how much do you think you'll exit for?

I would like to think I'll get about 6.5 million.

And you own how much of that?

66%.

So you'll get at least nearly £4 million?

And what will you do with that 4 million?

Go back to Thailand and sit on the beach?

No, no. I'm an entrepreneur and, you know, my heart is in...

..in product and creating.

Would you take investment in that business?

As a whole?

If the investment and the valuation

were agreed upon,

it might be something I'd think about.

Food for thought for the serial entrepreneur

in the form of an alternative deal proposal.

But Touker Suleyman wants to know if the brand is forecast to be the gift

that keeps on giving.

If you had the project going forward...

You've done 230,000?

-Yes.

-First year?

-First year.

-So, year two.

-Roughly it's the same.

230 with a break even.

-Right.

-You know, currently my gross margin at the end of the year

is about 27%, and I'm breaking even.

So it is expensive to make, and I'm finding ways

-of getting my cost of goods down.

-I look at the product, great.

-Thank you.

-And when the numbers come up, it's like,

it should be a £5 million business.

-It should be.

-Yeah.

-It will be.

I'm like, "Hello?"

You know, it's...

Is it because you're too expensive?

Is it because you can't open the doors?

I have relationships with drink buyers,

-but I don't have relationships with snack buyers.

-Right.

You know, it's basically like starting from scratch.

A blow for Jonathan as he's forced to admit that costly crisps

and a lack of contacts are barriers to big profits.

Is the product's most enthusiastic consumer, Deborah Meaden,

prepared to put her money where her mouth is?

Not only have I virtually finished my bowl,

but I've also had all of the strawberries and mangoes.

I think they're lovely.

-Thank you.

-You're great.

The branding's great.

But there's a lot of moving parts

that I feel are about to move against you.

You've got to get better margins.

If you don't get better margins, it doesn't matter who I introduce you to.

-Yeah.

-They're not going to buy your product.

-Yeah, agreed.

-So, I'm really sorry, I would love to have made it work.

-Thank you.

-But I'm afraid I'm not over the line.

-OK.

-So, I'm out.

Thank you.

Deborah Meaden's a fan of the crisps

but deems their margins less than tasty.

Can Touker Suleyman be tempted by the snack business?

You've got a great product.

You're great. But as a business, it's not going to make money.

And it breaks my heart to say I'm not going to invest

cos I think I'll never get my money back. And I'm out.

OK, thank you.

Jonathan,

I think it's a little bit messy.

Your margins are under pressure.

It's going to be difficult to raise the prices.

And you've got this manufacturer...

..who seems to be the only person...

..in the world right now

who can make it to the specifications you want.

However, I think I can add a lot of value to this.

I can get you access to all the stores

and help you with building the brand.

But obviously that's going to come at a cost.

So it's a bit of a punt for me.

But I'm willing to offer you...

..all of the money...

..for 35%.

Despite the challenges,

Tej Lalvani takes a risk,

offering £75,000 for 35% of the company.

Two more Dragons could still make rival offers.

Peter Jones has already hinted he might consider investing.

The product's really good. It tastes great.

But whilst I think on the surface it looks fantastic...

..I think as a business opportunity

it's not going to produce a return that I would need.

And the second thing is you are currently about to go through

six months of a transaction, which I truly believe will defocus you,

even though you don't think it will, and that won't be good for me.

So, I'm sadly going to say...

-..I'm out.

-OK. Thank you.

-Jonathan.

-Yes.

-You are highly investable as an individual.

-Thank you.

-And I would really like working with you.

What would I offer? Well,

the business I owned up until last year was in all the major retailers,

or many of them, and I had relationships with the others

in the UK and in Western Europe.

And I sit here ready to invest in the next right thing and

give it a lot of focus and energy and attention as well,

which I think is important.

So, where does that leave me?

I think, on balance, you've got an

offer from a Dragon who can use your product as a tangential product

to where he is already.

So, I think...

..I'm going to say I'm out.

Jenny Campbell's withdrawal leaves Tej Lalvani's offer

as the only deal on the table.

But at 35% for £75,000,

it's five times the amount of equity Jonathan wanted to part with.

I am absolutely willing to negotiate with you.

But, you know, we're very far apart.

My 7.5% to 35%, so...

I'm happy to throw that back to you and see if...

-So, you're asking if I'm flexible?

-Yeah.

-Look, if this was your...

..one product that you've got, if you had no other distractions,

I would negotiate and I definitely wouldn't have even come in at 35%.

But it's a big risk, and you can see

why the other Dragons have dropped out.

It's a fair offer, and sadly I cannot move.

I'd be willing to offer you 15%.

And what I will do is pay back the 75,000 you put in

in two years' time,

and that gets reduced to 10%.

What I'd be willing to do is I'd want the 35% from the beginning,

and if you return the money...

..I'll drop to 27.5%.

I think we need to bring the figure down a bit, Tej.

Um, that's the best I can do.

It's... You know, my ceiling was lower than that.

Well, I'm sorry, but I'm out.

Thanks.

Well done, Jonathan, but I wish you all the best.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks.

No magic money tree for the dehydrated fruit and veg.

Jonathan leaves the Den without a deal.

Given the risks and what was at stake,

I think that was a fair offer.

Yeah, I mean, he's a great guy, great product, it was just, uh,

it was too risky.

I really genuinely think we could have, you know,

we could have met somewhere a bit closer in the middle.

When I say middle, I mean closer to me.

Last into the Den, a 25-year-old entrepreneur from Belgium...

I can't believe I'm actually doing this.

I cannot believe it.

..a businesswoman confident she has a unique solution

to a problem faced by many wheelchair users.

I'm a bit nervous, but I feel OK.

It's just, yeah, controlling the nerves, keeping it Zen.

My name is Corien Staels,

founder and CEO of Staels Design and developer of wheelAIR,

an award-winning battery-powered airflow backrest cushion.

WheelAIR increases your comfort and keeps you cool,

combining function with style.

Today, I'm here to sell you 15% of my company in return for £75,000.

So, how does it work? As you can see on that wheelchair, there's a unit

underneath. That unit basically sucks air in at the bottom,

pushes it up and then gently pushes it out onto your back,

creating a general feeling of cooling.

We believe that with wheelAIR we can capture £45 million

in the UK alone.

And we've had lots of interest so far and we're working with some

fantastic Paralympic athletes,

such as double Paralympian Michael Kerr,

who I've got with me today.

With your help, we want to go into distributing and into manufacturing,

because with your help we can change every wheelchair user's life.

Thank you very much. Would anyone like to try it out?

I would, actually, yes.

A slick pitch from Corien Staels, who's looking for £75,000...

You have a simple remote.

..in exchange for 15% of her company,

making air conditioning cushions for wheelchairs.

-It's already...

-Exactly.

-..cool.

-Yeah.

It worked in seconds for Deborah Meaden,

and she's keen to get some first-hand feedback

from the invention's Paralympian user Michael Kerr.

Michael, how long have you been using this?

I've been trialling this on and off now for a few months.

It's a great piece of kit for somebody like myself.

I had a spinal cord injury back in 2000,

resulting in paralysis from the chest down,

so when I get too hot, I just keep getting hotter and hotter

because I don't have the ability to sweat any more.

So, having something like this obviously helps me regulate my body

-temperature.

-Thank you.

Thank you.

A winning endorsement from a Paralympic athlete

is not a bad start to Corien's pitch.

And now Touker Suleyman's wondering what's driving her ambition.

So, what gave you the inspiration?

So, there was a woman at university who was a wheelchair user,

and she said, "You know, a lot of people have overheating issues.

"Maybe you can make a cooling clothing line." I said,

"Well, I'll drop the clothing line, but I can solve the issue."

And what about yourself?

-What's your background?

-So, I studied in Amsterdam,

so I did a Bachelors in international fashion management

there for four years,

and then I came to Glasgow to do my Masters in international business

-and entrepreneurship.

-Whoa! Yeah.

-All with distinction.

-Perhaps I can give you a job!

SHE LAUGHS

A grade-A student putting her skills to good use.

Corien is getting top marks from Touker Suleyman.

But Deborah Meaden wants a progress report on the business.

Just so I understand where you are at the moment.

Are you actually in production?

No, currently we have four prototypes at work.

We currently don't have the funding to go into manufacturing

-so that's why we're here today.

-And made in the UK at the moment?

So, the foam is made in Italy,

and the cover is made in Tunisia.

So, and the rest is made in Glasgow and will be in the UK.

And do you know about how much it's going to cost to make?

Yes. It costs us £127.

£127 to make.

So, what do you think you're going to be selling it out at?

It's retailing at 575.

I think that's quite expensive.

-Mm-hm.

-It's a very, very cleverly designed, simple product.

-Yeah.

-And the raw materials are not that expensive.

If you really wanted to do volume on it,

I know a little bit about textiles,

you could probably bring that down dramatically.

The king of outsourcing, Touker Suleyman,

spots the potential to lower Corien's production costs.

Jenny Campbell's more interested in how much the product will set the

consumer back.

How did you come to a price point of 575?

If I price it too low, you don't get the credibility.

If it's too high, no-one will buy it.

But with 575, it covers our overheads really well.

I think you've got a great product,

and it solves a very important purpose.

I think it's just...

..the cost, £575, is a lot,

and I think you could end up struggling to convince people.

But if you want to get a bigger market,

you want something that's more affordable.

Tej Lalvani thinks the product's price tag

could limit its mass-market appeal,

which has left Peter Jones wondering

how Corien's future sales are likely to stack up.

What's your forecast, your three-year forecast?

Three-year forecast total is, uh...

The...

I always calculate in Dutch.

So, it will be about 2.5 million, I guess, turnover.

And how many products would that be?

That is... Oh, I've got this all written down exactly but it'll be...

Uh...

Would you like to see the sheet that has all the...?

No, no, I just want you to tell me.

OK. I think we're selling about 1,000 products by year three.

1,000 total of these products?

No, they'll be...

-Do you mean combined?

-So what other products?

You're pitching this today,

but there's other products you haven't created yet?

We're actually applying for a grant now to develop a more technically

advanced version of this that's heating and cooling.

But instead of applying for grants,

why don't you try and create a business,

make some money and reinvest the money?

-I do, I do. But...

-Instead of using public funds.

-I do.

The whole thing about entrepreneurship is that

you're trying to create a business and be self-sustainable,

and build a business and utilise those retained profits.

With the right grant, we can hire people, so it's basically

-just without profit...

-No, but you can hire a lot more people

-if you start making money in your business.

-Yeah, and we will.

How many of these will you sell in three years?

I'll sell at least 200 in the first year,

450 in the second year, so, say, 800.

800?

And what will be the revenue if you sell 800?

Uh, so, 800...

Uh... Uh... 4 million?

And what will be your gross margin?

Um... Gross margin on that...

Uh... I don't know by heart.

I think 300.

No... Uh...

I'm sorry.

-What's happened here?

-I don't know. I have my numbers but I just...

I know I have a turnover for five years per month

and I know exactly how much I sell...

But, Corien, you're a distinction student.

Yes.

So, Corien, what's going on now?

-Is this pressure? Are you feeling pressure?

-Yes.

It's doing all the numbers just, like, out of my head.

-OK. We're at 300K.

-Mm-hm.

-And now a valuation.

Where do you come to a valuation of half a million

where you sit today with a product that's not launched?

I am so sorry, but I am going to pass out.

I don't know why. I'm seeing only black.

-Oh.

-Do you want some water here?

-Sit down.

-Here you are.

-Sit down here.

-Sit down here.

-Have some water.

-I'm sorry.

-It's fine, it's fine, it's fine.

-Take a break.

-It's fine, don't worry.

-Breathe and...

-I'm really not feeling well.

It's just my sugar sometimes drops.

It's fine. It's fine. Don't worry.

It's OK, I've got the cooling cushion on.

-LAUGHTER

-Good answer.

The pressure of the Den has proved too much for Corien.

Everything just goes black.

Forced to abandon her pitch midway, she's taken out to recover.

The interrogation by the Dragons

has left holes in her financial forecast.

But, feeling better, Corien decides to return to the Den.

How are you feeling?

Bit shaky still but better.

-I'm so sorry about that.

-That's all right.

It's straight back to business for Jenny Campbell,

who is quick to turn up the heat.

Corien, let me tell you where I am.

There's a lot of things I don't like.

You clearly come under pressure under your numbers,

despite you being a distinction student.

You haven't shown the business acumen that comes with this,

not to me.

The thing I take most issue with is an 85% margin

for a product where you're trying to help people.

I take issue with it, and I don't have confidence in you becoming

a businesswoman and this being scalable.

And for that reason, Corien, I am out.

Thank you.

Affronted by Corien's mark-up

and lacking confidence in her business skills,

Jenny Campbell becomes the first Dragon out.

Can health tycoon Tej Lalvani revive this rapidly deflating pitch?

I think there's quite a bit of risk.

However, I think that, if it's a unique product...

..with the right support and the right backing, it could do OK.

So...

..I'll offer you half the money for...

..20% of the company.

Tej Lalvani comes to the rescue,

breathing new life into the entrepreneur's pitch.

But he's only willing to put up half of the £75,000,

and that's for a whopping 20% of the company.

A double deal with textile tycoon Touker Suleyman

could be right up Corien's street.

But can he come up with a two-for-one offer?

I'll tell you where I stand.

I don't think you can work on such huge margins.

If you could bring the cost of that unit down to £40,

then you could retail that for 199.

-How does that sound to you?

-It would

be ideal if you can get the cost prices down that low.

But we've just not been able to manage it ourselves.

OK, well, look, there are a lot of question marks.

-I'm the Dragon for you.

-Is that so?

-I think you know that.

-Mm.

And I'll share the risk with Tej,

so I'll give you the other half of the money...

..for 20%.

Quite a turnaround.

The whole £75,000 split between two Dragons with connections in global

health and textile businesses.

Peter Jones has held back since Corien almost fainted

during his financial cross-examination.

Has he reached a verdict?

What I feel is that there is...

..a real, huge opportunity, actually,

for your product to enter the market,

and you can see how it's potentially life-changing.

I'm going to make you an offer.

But mine is conditional upon the fact that, if Deborah is interested,

that I would share with Deborah.

I'm going to offer you half of the money...

..for just 15%.

So, Corien...

I don't know if you know,

a very close member of my family is in a wheelchair.

As a result of my sister's problems...

..I've actually been involved with a project designing a wheelchair.

OK.

I would have made you an offer in any event.

But Peter and I work very well together.

We've worked on many other projects, and I know we can both add value.

So, I'm going to make you an offer.

It will be for half of the money.

It will be for 15%.

And it will be to match Peter's offer.

OK.

It's a massive turnaround

as a Meaden-Jones partnership

undercuts Tej Lalvani and Touker Suleyman's joint offer

by 10%.

And it's not over yet.

I would just say that I would change my offer to 15%,

to match Deborah and Peter's if Tej agrees.

I don't think there's anyone here that's more passionate about health.

That is MY business.

That's what we do. We help improve people's lives.

So, I'm willing to drop my percentage from 20 to 15%...

-Yes.

-..to match Touker's.

This is a very difficult decision.

And I'll tell you what we'll do,

if we get our money back, I'll drop it to ten.

You've gone 30, 25... And poor... That lady hasn't even said anything.

-TEJ:

-Well, no, it just shows how passionate we are

-about what she's doing.

-Because I don't want you to have it!

Four Dragons have set out their offers

and Corien's firmly in the driving seat.

Peter and Deborah, are you...

..willing to match what they said with giving me back percentage

if you make back the money?

I'm happy to drop on the repayment down to 10%.

-Very happy to.

-Um...

I think I'm going to go with Deborah and Peter.

-Oh!

-Sorry.

-Eh!

Good. Very pleased.

-Brilliant.

-Well done. Amazing.

-Thank you.

Corien, we were happy to get you a better deal

from the other Dragons anyway, so...

Do I just leave? Yes? OK.

Corien exits the Den,

but this time feeling triumphant

with a pledge of £75,000 and two seasoned Dragons.

I wanted that!

SHE LAUGHS

I can't believe how much it turned around! You know,

it's like they're trying to break you just to see,

and then in the end, they're like, "Oh, you're fantastic!"

I'm like, "What?!"

You never can tell what the Dragons are thinking in the Den.

As Corien found out, you can face the toughest of grillings,

believe it's all hopeless,

only to find you get four offers and have the Dragons fighting

for a piece of your business.

Coming up next time...

-Beautiful.

-I think it's really cool what you've done.

-Bye-bye.

-Bye.

-LAUGHTER

You've done well so far.

And he says he's not a salesman.

You'll never make any money out of it.

But who is Touker?

Touker, actually, is better known than you.

An investor will always want to see some level of investment

-from yourselves.

-Don't speak on my behalf.

Speak on your behalf.

Keep on dreaming. It's not going to be with my money.

I'm wondering if you've got entrepreneurial freeze.

I'm going to give you an offer straightaway.