Episode 10 Dragons' Den


Episode 10

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Transcript


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The Dragons are back and they're all fired up to build on their empires.

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I think we've got a winner.

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Now, be careful what you say.

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But which of the entrepreneurs will show true grit?

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You're very, very competent and presentable and determined.

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You've got a great product.

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-You're great.

-Who will be on shaky ground?

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You've made a fatal error.

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How many have you sold, John?

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I haven't actually sold any.

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Who will rock the foundations of the Den?

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I am honestly, genuinely stunned.

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-You've gone 30, 25...

-Cos I don't want you to have it!

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Who will cement a lucrative partnership?

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-I'm the Dragon for you.

-I think you've got a great product.

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I'm going to make you an offer.

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But I'm going to be greedy.

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And who will buckle under the pressure of the Den?

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I am so sorry, but I am going to pass out.

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I don't know why. I'm seeing only black.

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Welcome to Dragons' Den, back in business and fierier than ever.

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We have a new batch of nervous entrepreneurs

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desperate to impress the formidable Dragons,

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putting the finishing touches

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to what they hope will be the elevator pitch of a lifetime.

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First into the Den is John Boff,

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a former bricklayer who is hoping to build a relationship with a Dragon.

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HE SIGHS

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This opportunity today is probably the biggest moment of my life,

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other than marrying my wife,

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and a little bit scary, to be honest with you.

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Hello, Dragons. My name's John Boff and I'm the proud owner

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of the adjustable mortarboard.

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I'm here today for £25,000 investment

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for 15% equity within the company.

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Having worked in the construction industry for over 38 years,

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and 27 of those years actively working as a bricklayer,

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I personally know the stress and strains this trade has on your body.

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Traditionally, bricklayers will get bricks, stack them,

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then put a wooden mortarboard on there.

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It was only when we were building an extension on my house,

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and with my wife being actively involved in doing the building work

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with me, she questioned what was I doing.

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When I explained it's to try and get it up as high as I can

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to stop the bending so much.

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She simply said, "Well, isn't there anything to attach this

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"to a scaffolding that could be easily adjusted?"

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And that's when the adjustable mortarboard was born.

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We designed, manufactured a bracket that would fit all types of

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scaffolding and could be easily adjusted up and down to suit

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the individual bricklayer's heights.

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We put it on trial at Swansea University campus,

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and it was a fantastic result.

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It turned out, using the EcoSpot,

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reduced musculoskeletal injuries by 70%.

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Plus, everybody says to me,

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"How come nobody's thought of it before?"

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Would any of you Dragons care to try and have a go?

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-I would. Yeah, I would.

-Do we get to lay a brick?

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I'll have a go.

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A solid pitch from John Boff,

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offering an adjustable mortarboard

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to make bricklaying less backbreaking.

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-Is that right?

-Yes.

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-Is that right or not?

-Yes, yes.

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No, it's very good for your first effort.

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SHE LAUGHS

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The ex-brickie is looking for £25,000...

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-Oh, dear.

-Don't worry.

-Never mind.

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..in exchange for 15% of his company.

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An average bricklayer will bend down 2,000 times

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to retrieve mortar alone.

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-Yeah, I feel that on my back already.

-There you go.

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-I think we've got a winner.

-Now, be careful what you say

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-because that's...

-No, no, I didn't mean it like that.

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Yeah, no, I think you'll find that you...

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Keep all your options open.

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No, no, I didn't mean it like that!

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-I'd say everyone done very well there.

-Yeah.

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With its test run concluded,

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Peter Jones is ready to lay down his initial thoughts on the product.

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I mean, basically it looks like a massive paella, doesn't it?

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Yes, it's a spot board.

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-Yeah.

-Yeah. And the idea, it's round so people don't walk

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-into the edges of it.

-No, I think roundness is really good.

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Why wouldn't you just have that on taller legs?

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Cos people trip over it. It's a trip hazard as well.

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-How many have you got?

-We've got 90 at the moment.

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-90?

-Yeah.

-So, how many have you sold, John?

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We... I... I haven't actually sold any.

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I've got them out on a hire basis.

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It doesn't sound a lot. But we hire them out for a pound a day, and then

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the construction companies hold them,

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and then when they've finished, they off-hire them,

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we take them back to the house, get them cleaned down,

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and then they're re-sprayed up and transferred on.

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And that's all done at our house.

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-A pound?

-I know.

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Only a pound. I'm just thinking to myself...

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-Why not more?

-Why not £2?

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Don't you think that a pound a day is cheap?

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It's deliberately cheap

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because I want to get it out on the marketplace.

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OK, so how much money have you made, John?

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What's been your revenue in your first year of trading?

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Well, right, OK. You need to just understand I work full-time

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at the moment as a senior construction manager,

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and this is done purely through evenings and on weekends.

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No, John, this sounds to me that this might be a justification

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-for a really low number.

-Well, it's... £20,000 was our turnover.

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You've turned over £20,000?

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Peter Jones is stunned that hiring out John's boards

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reaps such big cash rewards.

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Deborah Meaden has a track record in backing products

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in the building industry. Is this another chance

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to lay the foundations of a successful partnership?

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-This is not a DIY-style product at all, is it?

-No, no, it's not.

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-It's not.

-So, your individual bricklayer, I completely get,

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is never going to put their hands in their pockets and say,

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-"Here you are, you know, I'm going to..."

-They're not.

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-I wouldn't... I wouldn't.

-Of course you wouldn't.

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But the big construction companies, they spend fortunes,

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so why would you not think about selling them these?

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If that's a good idea, I'm open to sell them.

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The only reason I have withheld the thought of selling them is -

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A, the cost. I wouldn't really want to pay that much.

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And, B, how long they last.

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If I sold one of those boards there and a bracket,

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you're probably looking seven or eight years before you're probably

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looking to do anything back and get another one.

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So, on a building site that, for instance, is building

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200, 300 houses, how many of these would be needed?

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You're looking about 40 bricklayers.

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The Den's queen of construction, Deborah Meaden,

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senses an opportunity to establish a market

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for the entrepreneur's product.

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Now Tej Lalvani wants to know if John's protected his potentially

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ground-breaking invention.

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I'd like to find out have you got a patent on this?

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The design's registered for an adjustable mortarboard.

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So you haven't got a patent?

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The design's patent is registered, yes.

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So the design registration, as you know, doesn't really cover it.

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You know, someone else could come with a different type of base.

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They could come, instead of a tripod, four-leg base.

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It's an adjustable, it's designed for the adjustable mortarboard.

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So, someone could make an adjustable one but just looked different,

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and they could bypass your design registration.

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Not under my understanding. I might be misunderstood.

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-Yeah, a patent can protect...

-My understanding was

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I've registered the design of an adjustable mortarboard,

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and they've taken, sort of...

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In the patent is the board itself being adjusted,

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and that's what we've got protected.

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-Yeah, I think if you change...

-In my understanding.

-Yeah,

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-I think you're not as protected as you probably think.

-Right.

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-And I share Tej's concerns.

-I've got it there if you want

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-to have a look to see what...

-I wouldn't mind just having...

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I wouldn't mind understanding what...

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Cos you feel very confident about your protection.

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-If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

-Don't worry.

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-I'd like to put it right if...

-I know. I want to be really...

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I want to be clear on what you've got so...

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Yeah. Yeah. You're the experts.

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Lack of a concrete patent could be a deal-breaker in the Den.

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But, while John awaits his fate on the paperwork,

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Peter Jones has a confession.

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When you first came in and demonstrated this,

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I almost thought it was bizarre and it was going to be a bit of fun.

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I can't believe I'm about to say this,

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but it clearly does...it works.

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My personal sense about all of this is that this idea and concept

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lives or dies by the protection you believe you've got.

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If you have a patent that gives you full protection on that,

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this could change the construction industry forever.

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I think you could have a highly valuable business.

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So, I'm going to sit quietly and just listen to Deborah's verdict.

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OK.

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Uh, so, it is a straight certificate of registration of design.

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It's not in any way a patent.

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It is very specific over the design of that particular...

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-Right.

-..way of doing it.

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And I have a feeling that you could be the person who invented

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the next big safety thing for building sites

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who doesn't make a lot of money out of it.

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Oh, this is a real lesson.

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This is a real, real lesson.

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Why did you not go down the patent route?

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It's not too late. I thought I had safe...safeguarded it.

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Well, it is too late because it's out in the public domain.

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-Right, OK.

-Sadly, I don't think you're going to be the one

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who makes the big money out of this.

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-OK.

-That helps me make up my mind, John.

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Hearing that from Deborah is a blow, isn't it?

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-Yeah.

-So, sadly, John,

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I'm going to have to say that that's one of the reasons why...

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-..I'm going to make you an offer.

-Oh, brilliant.

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I'm going to offer you...

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..part of the money...

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..because I think if you had several Dragons, it could work.

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But I think it's more than that.

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I do think that you've got an opportunity

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of putting several thousand of these

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into the construction industry,

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and that means that I would get my money back very quickly,

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and I've got pretty much low risk.

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So, I'm going to offer you...

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..£5,000 of your 25 that you need...

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..for 7.5% of your business.

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Peter Jones rescues the pitch from near disaster,

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proposing a split deal.

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But John needs the rest of the Dragons

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to match his £5,000 bid to make it work.

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Will Touker Suleyman help engineer a deal?

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John, I think you need a break, and you're good.

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-OK.

-And, in my view...

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..I could quite easily say, "I'll give you all the money."

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But I would join with Peter, I'd also put up £5,000 for 7.5%.

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Touker Suleyman matches Peter Jones's offer.

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The investment is coming together with £10,000

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of the 25,000 John needs.

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But will the remaining three Dragons be in the mood to indulge in

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some constructive capitalism?

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John, I too could offer the whole money and would kind of love that

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as well.

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But I think there's something really powerful about putting more

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Dragons behind this for everything that they bring.

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So, I will join the merry team of Dragons and offer you £5,000

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for 7.5%.

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Thank you.

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-Hi, John.

-Hi.

-I think that you'd be a delight to work with.

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Your passionate energy. You believe in this product.

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And I think that's a great sign.

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I'd like to make you an offer too. I'd like to offer you...

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..5,000 for 7.5%.

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Thank you.

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With four equal bids,

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John just needs Deborah Meaden

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to complete the dream team of five Dragons.

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But is she willing to make it a full house?

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I sometimes think the power of more Dragons is very, very powerful.

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But in this instance, I don't.

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You need to speak to the people

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who make decisions all day, every day on those sites

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about how they're going to run them.

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I have businesses that are in there with products on test right now,

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all of the big builders.

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Right.

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So, I'm going to make you an offer, but I'm going to be greedy.

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It's for all of the money.

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And I want 35% of the business.

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Deborah Meaden wrecks the plan for a five-Dragons deal by going it alone

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and undercutting her rivals.

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It's put John in a tricky spot.

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He's got a rock-solid individual offer,

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but the joint proposal's falling apart.

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At the moment, I've got two offers, as far as I understand.

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It's clearly not working cos the rest don't add up to the money.

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So, John, as we don't have a complete team of Dragons

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wanting to share this,

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I propose that we split this now between four Dragons.

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-Yes, I would.

-I would, yeah.

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-Yeah.

-Why do you want more?

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Well, to have one is fantastic.

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Thank you all very much to start off with, OK?

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So, to have more is just like everybody's dream if you come

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-into the Den.

-But it isn't, is it? That's my point.

-Yeah, yeah.

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I'm worried now.

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-No, don't, don't be worried.

-Go and talk to the wall.

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-I don't want to sway you.

-No, no, no, I've got no interest

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in talking to the wall.

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John's seen enough brick walls and prefers to make a tough decision

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while looking the Dragons in the eye.

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Will he opt for the power of four investors,

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or just one that's well-connected in the building trade?

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I'm really torn here.

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Really, so you all know, this isn't like, "Oh, it's an easy decision."

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And it's a life-changing decision, as far as I'm concerned.

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It's not done lightly. You know,

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I respect every single Dragon that's in here, and I'd be foolish not to.

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But if the offer is that...

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..I'd take Deborah, please.

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Good. Good.

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-I'm so pleased.

-Thank you very much.

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-I'm so pleased.

-Thank you.

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-Well done, John.

-Sorry, everybody.

-Good luck.

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-Well done, John.

-Cheerio!

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SHE LAUGHS

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After nearly 30 years laying bricks on building sites,

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John leaves the Den with £25,000 in his back pocket to take his

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adjustable mortarboard to new heights.

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I thought... Until that point, I thought he had his mind right.

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I don't think that was the right decision.

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Oh, shut up! Well, I don't agree.

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I feel absolutely over the moon.

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I can't stop smiling.

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I can't believe it. I can't wait to tell my wife!

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Next to face the Dragons

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is entrepreneur and mother of two Colleen Wong from London

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with a business creation that's close to her heart.

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This is my third baby, and so it's something I'm really proud of.

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Being a mum and running a start-up, the two go hand-in-hand.

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It's multitasking and having no sleep.

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Hello, Dragons. My name is Colleen Wong

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and I'm the founder of Techsixtyfour.

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It was about 18 months ago I took my two little kids to a farm park

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and I witnessed a mum running around looking everywhere for her son.

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So, I thought to myself, "Oh, my goodness, that could have been me.

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"And why are we not more connected to our younger children?"

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My solution is the Gator Watch.

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It's this watch here.

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So, it looks like a watch, but it actually makes and

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receives calls from up to ten trusted numbers.

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It's also a tracker.

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It has no access to the internet, social media, or games.

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Last year, in the fall, I began to work with a technology distributor,

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and my Gator Watch is now sold at Bentalls in Kingston,

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on Amazon and John Lewis online.

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The watch retails for £99...

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..and there's also a service plan with it.

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It's £9 a month on an annual contract,

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or £11 a month without a contract.

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Today, I'm looking for £100,000 of investment for 5% of my business.

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I'd like to give you all a Gator Watch, if that's all right,

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to take a look at.

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Hoping her product has the bite to snare a Dragon is Colleen Wong.

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-Thank you.

-She's seeking £100,000 for 5% of her children's watch,

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phone and tracker.

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Retail expert Touker Suleyman is first to explore

0:18:050:18:09

what makes the business tick.

0:18:090:18:11

When did you get the idea, and how did you execute the samples?

0:18:130:18:18

So, I had the idea in September of 2015,

0:18:180:18:21

and I knew that it would cost an extreme amount of money

0:18:210:18:24

to design a product from scratch.

0:18:240:18:27

And so I picked one manufacturer in China and I began working with them.

0:18:270:18:31

-£2 million valuation on it?

-Yes.

0:18:310:18:34

I'm assuming you have some IP, or something very unique,

0:18:350:18:39

to create such a valuation.

0:18:390:18:40

Because I had gone to a manufacturer who had manufactured this product...

0:18:410:18:44

-Right.

-OK?

-They own the IP.

0:18:440:18:46

Right, you don't own the IP?

0:18:480:18:50

Not for this, no.

0:18:500:18:51

After speaking to IP lawyers,

0:18:530:18:54

I realised that once a product is already out in the marketplace,

0:18:540:18:58

you can no longer obtain the IP for it.

0:18:580:19:00

This was a product... So, for example, wearable GPS tracker,

0:19:000:19:04

that's also a phone, was already in the market.

0:19:040:19:07

And you've sold how many so far, in total?

0:19:090:19:11

-400.

-400...

-Slightly over 400.

0:19:110:19:14

..at £99?

0:19:140:19:15

So, costs, how much?

0:19:150:19:18

So, it costs 55, so it works out to be about just under £50.

0:19:180:19:21

Already there's a problem.

0:19:220:19:24

If your cost is 50...

0:19:250:19:26

..and you're retailing at 99,

0:19:270:19:29

another retailer would want to pay 37, 38,

0:19:290:19:32

40 for it, so already you can't wholesale it.

0:19:320:19:36

It's a shaky start for Colleen

0:19:380:19:40

as Touker Suleyman exposes the limitations of her sales model.

0:19:400:19:44

But dad-of-two Tej Lalvani is more interested in how smart

0:19:460:19:50

the child-friendly watch is.

0:19:500:19:52

-Is it waterproof?

-It's splash proof.

0:19:540:19:57

So, a kid can't use it in a swimming pool?

0:19:570:19:58

-No.

-OK.

-But he can...

0:19:580:20:00

-OK, so a bit of rain... Rain, we're protected.

-Rain is fine.

0:20:000:20:02

-Yeah.

-And can it receive text messages?

-No.

0:20:020:20:05

So, when you said that there's a data plan on it,

0:20:050:20:08

-what's the data plan for?

-It's for GPS tracking and Wi-Fi tracking.

0:20:080:20:11

So you can't send a message to your kid if you want them to read it?

0:20:110:20:14

No.

0:20:140:20:15

You've made a fatal error walking into this Den

0:20:190:20:23

with a £2 million valuation.

0:20:230:20:25

I think not only does it say a lot about the company,

0:20:270:20:30

but it says a lot about you.

0:20:300:20:32

And that makes me unsure about you as a person to invest in.

0:20:330:20:38

A bitter blow for Colleen as Tej Lalvani hands out

0:20:420:20:46

a damning assessment of her company price tag.

0:20:460:20:49

A subject that has also rendered Deborah Meaden a little dumbfounded.

0:20:490:20:54

I'm a bit stunned by the £2 million valuation.

0:20:560:20:59

Peter, can I ask you,

0:20:590:21:01

how long would it take me to find somebody to just go and buy these

0:21:010:21:05

and do the same sort of deal?

0:21:050:21:08

-By the end of tomorrow?

-By the end of tomorrow.

0:21:080:21:10

-So there's no barrier to entry?

-No.

0:21:100:21:13

If I could explain the reason for my 2 million valuation.

0:21:170:21:19

So, I work closely with my distributor,

0:21:210:21:23

and we've worked together to determine what our forecasts are

0:21:230:21:28

for sales up till the end of the year.

0:21:280:21:30

But I'm going to have to stop you here.

0:21:300:21:33

I'm really... I am honestly, genuinely stunned.

0:21:330:21:35

You are forecasting in markets that I can get into just like that.

0:21:380:21:44

Peter's telling me I could get this product by end of play tomorrow.

0:21:440:21:48

It's actually a bit of a cheeky valuation.

0:21:510:21:53

Valuations are a combination of either track record,

0:21:570:22:02

barriers to entry,

0:22:020:22:04

you can do something much faster than I could possibly ever do it,

0:22:040:22:08

IP that says you can't even enter this market without me.

0:22:080:22:12

Which bit of that have you got?

0:22:130:22:15

Well, I've been working with my manufacturer in China,

0:22:180:22:21

and he's seeing that the brand is growing here in the UK.

0:22:210:22:24

We've come to an agreement that we are going to join together

0:22:250:22:29

-and jointly own the IP.

-Sorry, the brand is growing.

0:22:290:22:33

You've sold 400 watches.

0:22:330:22:35

But you value your business at £2 million,

0:22:350:22:37

which I'm getting more annoyed as I even say it.

0:22:370:22:40

Deborah Meaden takes exception

0:22:420:22:44

to the company's seven-figure valuation.

0:22:440:22:47

Now Jenny Campbell wants to know

0:22:480:22:51

how vital Colleen is to the business set-up.

0:22:510:22:54

Can I just understand,

0:22:560:22:57

you've got the manufacturer in China owns the IP.

0:22:570:22:59

Why do they need you?

0:22:590:23:01

What do you add to that?

0:23:010:23:03

Because the manufacturer doesn't speak English.

0:23:030:23:06

-And you speak Chinese?

-I speak fluent Chinese, yes.

0:23:060:23:09

OK, all right. So you're a linchpin in terms of making that happen?

0:23:090:23:13

-Yes.

-OK.

-There's a little USP, but it is replicable.

0:23:130:23:17

-Obviously.

-Of course.

-You talked about jointly sharing the IP

0:23:170:23:21

with the Chinese manufacturer.

0:23:210:23:24

Well, I worked with them to improve the design, to improve the app,

0:23:240:23:28

and so I do have a letter of intent from the Chinese manufacturer.

0:23:280:23:33

OK.

0:23:330:23:34

Could there be traction in the pitch after all,

0:23:350:23:38

as Jenny Campbell uncovers the entrepreneur's evolving

0:23:380:23:42

relationship with her partners?

0:23:420:23:44

Time for tech giant Peter Jones to reveal whether there's a place

0:23:450:23:49

for the gadget in his business empire.

0:23:490:23:51

I don't really know what more to say,

0:23:540:23:56

because it's the first time,

0:23:560:23:58

I think, this has happened in the Den.

0:23:580:24:00

I don't know whether you realise, but you have actually nothing.

0:24:010:24:05

Literally nothing.

0:24:080:24:10

There's over 120 different products of this variant.

0:24:130:24:17

My offices in Hong Kong have over 30 of these types of products.

0:24:170:24:21

What you've done is you've taken a manufacturer and you've arranged to

0:24:210:24:25

have agreement that you could sell their product.

0:24:250:24:27

You've become now a glorified sales agent.

0:24:270:24:30

And then you've introduced a distributor into the margin chain.

0:24:320:24:35

If that's the case...

0:24:360:24:37

But it's a winning situation for myself as well to be able

0:24:370:24:41

to test that this product does sell.

0:24:410:24:43

-Is that wrong?

-No. No, it's great for you because you've got a job.

0:24:460:24:50

But you haven't got a business.

0:24:500:24:52

I don't feel like I'm a glorified sales agent.

0:24:560:25:00

You know, the relationships that I've built

0:25:000:25:02

with the manufacturer,

0:25:020:25:04

and with their willingness

0:25:040:25:06

to want to work together with me in the future.

0:25:060:25:08

In the future, but you're asking for investment today in a business which

0:25:080:25:11

doesn't exist. You're asking for us to value your sales skills

0:25:110:25:15

at £2 million.

0:25:150:25:17

That's why I'm saying I'm out.

0:25:190:25:20

Peter Jones imparts his devastating verdict

0:25:220:25:25

on the entrepreneur's business opportunity.

0:25:250:25:28

And more bad news is on its way as Deborah Meaden revisits that thorny

0:25:290:25:34

issue of how much Colleen thinks her company's worth.

0:25:340:25:37

You're so off the scale on your valuation

0:25:380:25:41

that it is a bit worrying about

0:25:410:25:44

how you're going to run the rest of the business.

0:25:440:25:46

OK. Another part of the valuation that I've been, you know,

0:25:460:25:50

told to look at are similar companies and their valuations.

0:25:500:25:55

So, a company by the name of Tinitell...

0:25:550:25:57

-Yeah.

-They do a wearable mobile phone and tracker as well.

0:25:570:26:00

-Yeah.

-And three years ago, at prototype stage,

0:26:000:26:03

-they were valued at 6 million.

-Yeah.

0:26:030:26:06

Did they own any IP?

0:26:060:26:08

-Yes, they did.

-Yeah.

0:26:080:26:09

Were they first to market?

0:26:110:26:12

-They were one of the first to market, yes.

-Tick.

0:26:130:26:16

That's my point!

0:26:180:26:19

Yes, I totally understand that,

0:26:190:26:21

and that is why I need to join together

0:26:210:26:24

with the manufacturer and work together and jointly own the IP.

0:26:240:26:27

Yeah, but that's not what you're doing here today.

0:26:270:26:29

You're telling me you're worth £2 million.

0:26:290:26:31

If you even knocked a nought off the end of that,

0:26:340:26:36

it still wouldn't be worth it,

0:26:360:26:37

so I'm really sorry, I won't be investing, I'm out.

0:26:370:26:40

Despite the entrepreneur's valiant effort to justify her valuation,

0:26:430:26:47

Deborah Meaden is the second Dragon to reject the deal.

0:26:470:26:51

But will the pendulum swing Colleen's way,

0:26:520:26:54

as a previously positive Jenny Campbell

0:26:540:26:57

is next to declare her hand?

0:26:570:26:59

You're very, very competent and presentable and determined.

0:27:010:27:05

You may have a business from this in the future, but it's all future.

0:27:070:27:10

But it's not an investment at this stage.

0:27:110:27:14

So for that reason, I wish you good luck, but I'm out.

0:27:140:27:16

I think you need to be very, very careful

0:27:200:27:22

because even as a sales agent,

0:27:220:27:24

if you don't sign that joint-venture agreement with your supplier,

0:27:240:27:28

he could very easily go straight to the distributor...

0:27:280:27:32

..and say, "Well, we don't need Colleen."

0:27:330:27:37

Unfortunately, I don't think it's investable, so I'm out.

0:27:370:27:39

Four Dragons down.

0:27:430:27:45

Now only Touker Suleyman can turn

0:27:450:27:47

the struggling entrepreneur's fortunes around.

0:27:470:27:50

I think you've got a long way to go.

0:27:520:27:54

I honestly believe, go away, look at the watch,

0:27:540:27:58

what else can you add to it that's unique,

0:27:580:28:01

that you could then have an IP to?

0:28:010:28:03

And then you might have a company worth a few hundred thousand pounds.

0:28:030:28:06

But definitely not 2 million.

0:28:060:28:08

There's no way I'm going to invest.

0:28:100:28:12

I'm out.

0:28:120:28:14

Thank you.

0:28:140:28:15

Time's up for Colleen, and she leaves the Den empty-handed,

0:28:170:28:21

scuppered by her company's price tag.

0:28:210:28:24

That's the trouble with crazy valuations.

0:28:280:28:31

-2 million.

-Crazy!

-Wow.

0:28:310:28:33

I didn't come up with a valuation out of thin air.

0:28:340:28:38

You know, it had a lot of research behind it.

0:28:380:28:41

In regards to Peter Jones's comment, you have to start somewhere.

0:28:410:28:44

I am building a business.

0:28:440:28:45

So far, all the Dragons have been fighting to invest.

0:28:520:28:56

-I'm so pleased.

-Thank you very much.

0:28:560:28:59

Now the Den's about to get a whole lot tougher.

0:28:590:29:02

I think it's a little bit messy.

0:29:020:29:04

You haven't shown the business acumen that comes with this.

0:29:040:29:07

What's going on now? Are you feeling pressure?

0:29:070:29:09

Yes. It's throwing all the numbers out of my head.

0:29:090:29:13

But there's still time for deals to be struck.

0:29:130:29:16

You are highly investable as an individual.

0:29:160:29:19

I know we can both add value.

0:29:190:29:21

I'm going to make you an offer.

0:29:210:29:22

Entrepreneurs often get the inspiration for their products

0:29:260:29:29

from the most unexpected of places.

0:29:290:29:32

None more so than Jonathan Newman,

0:29:320:29:34

who has looked to the stars in search of his space-age offering.

0:29:340:29:38

My product is utilising the same technology that Nasa uses.

0:29:430:29:47

But it's something that the everyday consumer can have in their bag.

0:29:490:29:53

He's hoping the Den will be his launch pad...

0:29:530:29:56

..and its countdown to liftoff.

0:29:560:29:59

My name is Jonathan Newman

0:30:040:30:06

and I'm here looking for £75,000

0:30:060:30:09

for 7.5% of my company Giving Tree Ventures.

0:30:090:30:13

We make a range of uber-healthy freeze-dried fruit

0:30:130:30:16

and vacuum-fried vegetable crisps

0:30:160:30:18

using the same technology that Nasa uses to prepare food

0:30:180:30:22

for astronauts.

0:30:220:30:23

This innovative process works by removing the moisture

0:30:230:30:26

from the product but leaving the nutritional content

0:30:260:30:29

completely intact.

0:30:290:30:30

Freeze-drying is a multimillion category in the States,

0:30:300:30:32

and it's making its way to the UK.

0:30:320:30:34

We are currently stocked in Wholefoods, Planet Organic,

0:30:340:30:37

Ocado, Holland & Barrett, over 200 Spar petrol stations across the UK,

0:30:370:30:42

and we also export to 13 countries.

0:30:420:30:45

In our first year of trading, we turned over £230,000.

0:30:450:30:49

And my aim going forward, with your help,

0:30:490:30:52

is to conquer the UK major multiple supermarkets where scale and volume

0:30:520:30:57

can really be achieved.

0:30:570:30:59

So, thank you very much for listening

0:30:590:31:01

and I'd be delighted to bring you

0:31:010:31:02

some samples to taste.

0:31:020:31:04

-I get the whole tray?

-No, just grab one. Just grab one bowl.

-Oh, I'll just grab one.

0:31:060:31:10

Offering dehydrated fruit and veg inspired by astronauts,

0:31:100:31:14

Jonathan Newman's looking for £75,000 for 7.5% of his company.

0:31:140:31:20

-What is that?

-That's mango.

0:31:200:31:21

The Dragons are certainly making short work of testing the product.

0:31:210:31:25

Now Deborah Meaden's keen to begin a discovery mission

0:31:260:31:30

into the cosmic crisps.

0:31:300:31:32

-I LOVE these.

-Thank you.

0:31:340:31:36

So, to be clear, because there's dry product around.

0:31:360:31:40

Do you claim this is healthier?

0:31:400:31:41

-Yes.

-OK.

0:31:410:31:42

And that's because of the process?

0:31:420:31:45

Absolutely, yeah. All that's being removed is the moisture.

0:31:450:31:48

Because there's no moisture, bacteria can't grow.

0:31:480:31:51

So you get up to 18 months' shelf life,

0:31:510:31:53

and you get no nutritional loss.

0:31:530:31:55

So, does this use no chemical at all?

0:31:550:31:57

None whatsoever. What I would say is where we excel is in taste and

0:31:570:32:01

quality. We're the only ones experimenting with, you know,

0:32:010:32:04

superfood vegetables like broccoli and pumpkin.

0:32:040:32:07

Jonathan, it tastes really good.

0:32:070:32:10

-Thank you.

-But part of me is thinking it tastes so good

0:32:100:32:13

because, if you look at this packet, it's 40% fat content.

0:32:130:32:17

Well, the only added ingredient in the broccoli and the pumpkin

0:32:190:32:23

is 2% rice bran oil. That's it.

0:32:230:32:25

But you're marketing this as a health snack.

0:32:250:32:28

But at 40% fat, to me that doesn't seem healthy at all.

0:32:280:32:32

Well, I mean, look, fats appear in food naturally and there's obviously

0:32:320:32:36

good fats as well, and traditionally crisps are fried in some not very

0:32:360:32:41

nice oils in very high temperatures.

0:32:410:32:44

So, what you're getting here is something which is not oily,

0:32:440:32:47

done at a low temperature.

0:32:470:32:48

I think it is oily.

0:32:480:32:50

I mean, if you look at the broccoli, when you pick it up,

0:32:500:32:54

your hands, your fingers get quite oily.

0:32:540:32:56

Jonathan's snack is proving too fatty

0:32:580:33:01

for health magnate Tej Lalvani.

0:33:010:33:03

And Peter Jones thinks he may have spotted another potential sticking

0:33:050:33:08

point with the product.

0:33:080:33:10

I noticed the product is made in Thailand at the moment.

0:33:110:33:13

-Yeah.

-And why is that?

0:33:130:33:15

Freeze-drying, it's a prohibitively expensive...

0:33:150:33:18

..process to make.

0:33:200:33:22

I looked at a lot of co-packers in Europe.

0:33:220:33:25

The cost of goods was way too high.

0:33:250:33:27

What's the love of Thailand?

0:33:270:33:28

The reason is, is because I was there during the tsunami.

0:33:280:33:31

Literally, I missed it by one boat.

0:33:310:33:34

You know, the boat behind me capsized.

0:33:340:33:36

-Seriously?

-Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:360:33:38

But that's another story.

0:33:380:33:39

But while I was there, I fell in love with coconut water.

0:33:390:33:42

So I launched a company making raw organic coconut water.

0:33:420:33:45

-What happened to that company?

-I still run that company.

0:33:450:33:48

However, I am

0:33:480:33:49

having a conversation about a potential

0:33:490:33:52

majority shareholding of that

0:33:520:33:53

company with strategic partners.

0:33:530:33:55

And how much do you think you'll exit for?

0:33:550:33:57

I would like to think I'll get about 6.5 million.

0:33:570:33:59

And you own how much of that?

0:34:010:34:02

66%.

0:34:020:34:03

So you'll get at least nearly £4 million?

0:34:040:34:07

And what will you do with that 4 million?

0:34:080:34:10

Go back to Thailand and sit on the beach?

0:34:100:34:13

No, no. I'm an entrepreneur and, you know, my heart is in...

0:34:130:34:16

..in product and creating.

0:34:170:34:19

Would you take investment in that business?

0:34:190:34:21

As a whole?

0:34:210:34:23

If the investment and the valuation

0:34:280:34:32

were agreed upon,

0:34:320:34:34

it might be something I'd think about.

0:34:340:34:36

Food for thought for the serial entrepreneur

0:34:390:34:41

in the form of an alternative deal proposal.

0:34:410:34:44

But Touker Suleyman wants to know if the brand is forecast to be the gift

0:34:460:34:50

that keeps on giving.

0:34:500:34:51

If you had the project going forward...

0:34:530:34:55

You've done 230,000?

0:34:550:34:58

-Yes.

-First year?

-First year.

0:34:580:34:59

-So, year two.

-Roughly it's the same.

0:34:590:35:01

230 with a break even.

0:35:010:35:03

-Right.

-You know, currently my gross margin at the end of the year

0:35:030:35:06

is about 27%, and I'm breaking even.

0:35:060:35:08

So it is expensive to make, and I'm finding ways

0:35:080:35:11

-of getting my cost of goods down.

-I look at the product, great.

0:35:110:35:14

-Thank you.

-And when the numbers come up, it's like,

0:35:140:35:16

it should be a £5 million business.

0:35:160:35:18

-It should be.

-Yeah.

-It will be.

0:35:180:35:19

I'm like, "Hello?"

0:35:190:35:21

You know, it's...

0:35:210:35:22

Is it because you're too expensive?

0:35:220:35:24

Is it because you can't open the doors?

0:35:240:35:27

I have relationships with drink buyers,

0:35:270:35:29

-but I don't have relationships with snack buyers.

-Right.

0:35:290:35:32

You know, it's basically like starting from scratch.

0:35:320:35:35

A blow for Jonathan as he's forced to admit that costly crisps

0:35:370:35:41

and a lack of contacts are barriers to big profits.

0:35:410:35:45

Is the product's most enthusiastic consumer, Deborah Meaden,

0:35:460:35:50

prepared to put her money where her mouth is?

0:35:500:35:52

Not only have I virtually finished my bowl,

0:35:540:35:57

but I've also had all of the strawberries and mangoes.

0:35:570:36:00

I think they're lovely.

0:36:000:36:01

-Thank you.

-You're great.

0:36:010:36:02

The branding's great.

0:36:020:36:04

But there's a lot of moving parts

0:36:040:36:06

that I feel are about to move against you.

0:36:060:36:10

You've got to get better margins.

0:36:110:36:12

If you don't get better margins, it doesn't matter who I introduce you to.

0:36:120:36:15

-Yeah.

-They're not going to buy your product.

0:36:150:36:17

-Yeah, agreed.

-So, I'm really sorry, I would love to have made it work.

0:36:170:36:20

-Thank you.

-But I'm afraid I'm not over the line.

0:36:200:36:22

-OK.

-So, I'm out.

0:36:220:36:25

Thank you.

0:36:250:36:26

Deborah Meaden's a fan of the crisps

0:36:260:36:29

but deems their margins less than tasty.

0:36:290:36:32

Can Touker Suleyman be tempted by the snack business?

0:36:320:36:36

You've got a great product.

0:36:370:36:39

You're great. But as a business, it's not going to make money.

0:36:390:36:43

And it breaks my heart to say I'm not going to invest

0:36:460:36:49

cos I think I'll never get my money back. And I'm out.

0:36:490:36:52

OK, thank you.

0:36:520:36:54

Jonathan,

0:36:550:36:56

I think it's a little bit messy.

0:36:560:36:59

Your margins are under pressure.

0:37:000:37:02

It's going to be difficult to raise the prices.

0:37:020:37:05

And you've got this manufacturer...

0:37:050:37:07

..who seems to be the only person...

0:37:070:37:09

..in the world right now

0:37:110:37:12

who can make it to the specifications you want.

0:37:120:37:14

However, I think I can add a lot of value to this.

0:37:190:37:23

I can get you access to all the stores

0:37:250:37:28

and help you with building the brand.

0:37:280:37:31

But obviously that's going to come at a cost.

0:37:310:37:34

So it's a bit of a punt for me.

0:37:360:37:38

But I'm willing to offer you...

0:37:390:37:41

..all of the money...

0:37:430:37:44

..for 35%.

0:37:450:37:46

Despite the challenges,

0:37:490:37:51

Tej Lalvani takes a risk,

0:37:510:37:53

offering £75,000 for 35% of the company.

0:37:530:37:58

Two more Dragons could still make rival offers.

0:37:590:38:03

Peter Jones has already hinted he might consider investing.

0:38:030:38:06

The product's really good. It tastes great.

0:38:080:38:10

But whilst I think on the surface it looks fantastic...

0:38:100:38:14

..I think as a business opportunity

0:38:150:38:18

it's not going to produce a return that I would need.

0:38:180:38:23

And the second thing is you are currently about to go through

0:38:230:38:26

six months of a transaction, which I truly believe will defocus you,

0:38:260:38:29

even though you don't think it will, and that won't be good for me.

0:38:290:38:33

So, I'm sadly going to say...

0:38:330:38:35

-..I'm out.

-OK. Thank you.

0:38:350:38:37

-Jonathan.

-Yes.

-You are highly investable as an individual.

0:38:380:38:43

-Thank you.

-And I would really like working with you.

0:38:430:38:46

What would I offer? Well,

0:38:480:38:50

the business I owned up until last year was in all the major retailers,

0:38:500:38:53

or many of them, and I had relationships with the others

0:38:530:38:56

in the UK and in Western Europe.

0:38:560:38:58

And I sit here ready to invest in the next right thing and

0:38:580:39:01

give it a lot of focus and energy and attention as well,

0:39:010:39:04

which I think is important.

0:39:040:39:06

So, where does that leave me?

0:39:090:39:10

I think, on balance, you've got an

0:39:180:39:20

offer from a Dragon who can use your product as a tangential product

0:39:200:39:26

to where he is already.

0:39:260:39:28

So, I think...

0:39:280:39:30

..I'm going to say I'm out.

0:39:300:39:32

Jenny Campbell's withdrawal leaves Tej Lalvani's offer

0:39:340:39:38

as the only deal on the table.

0:39:380:39:40

But at 35% for £75,000,

0:39:410:39:45

it's five times the amount of equity Jonathan wanted to part with.

0:39:450:39:49

I am absolutely willing to negotiate with you.

0:39:520:39:56

But, you know, we're very far apart.

0:39:560:39:57

My 7.5% to 35%, so...

0:39:590:40:02

I'm happy to throw that back to you and see if...

0:40:030:40:06

-So, you're asking if I'm flexible?

-Yeah.

-Look, if this was your...

0:40:060:40:09

..one product that you've got, if you had no other distractions,

0:40:100:40:13

I would negotiate and I definitely wouldn't have even come in at 35%.

0:40:130:40:17

But it's a big risk, and you can see

0:40:170:40:19

why the other Dragons have dropped out.

0:40:190:40:22

It's a fair offer, and sadly I cannot move.

0:40:230:40:27

I'd be willing to offer you 15%.

0:40:290:40:32

And what I will do is pay back the 75,000 you put in

0:40:330:40:36

in two years' time,

0:40:360:40:38

and that gets reduced to 10%.

0:40:380:40:40

What I'd be willing to do is I'd want the 35% from the beginning,

0:40:400:40:45

and if you return the money...

0:40:450:40:46

..I'll drop to 27.5%.

0:40:490:40:52

I think we need to bring the figure down a bit, Tej.

0:40:520:40:54

Um, that's the best I can do.

0:40:560:40:59

It's... You know, my ceiling was lower than that.

0:41:040:41:09

Well, I'm sorry, but I'm out.

0:41:110:41:15

Thanks.

0:41:150:41:17

Well done, Jonathan, but I wish you all the best.

0:41:180:41:20

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks.

0:41:200:41:22

No magic money tree for the dehydrated fruit and veg.

0:41:220:41:26

Jonathan leaves the Den without a deal.

0:41:260:41:29

Given the risks and what was at stake,

0:41:320:41:34

I think that was a fair offer.

0:41:340:41:35

Yeah, I mean, he's a great guy, great product, it was just, uh,

0:41:350:41:40

it was too risky.

0:41:400:41:41

I really genuinely think we could have, you know,

0:41:430:41:45

we could have met somewhere a bit closer in the middle.

0:41:450:41:47

When I say middle, I mean closer to me.

0:41:470:41:49

Last into the Den, a 25-year-old entrepreneur from Belgium...

0:42:020:42:06

I can't believe I'm actually doing this.

0:42:060:42:09

I cannot believe it.

0:42:090:42:11

..a businesswoman confident she has a unique solution

0:42:110:42:14

to a problem faced by many wheelchair users.

0:42:140:42:17

I'm a bit nervous, but I feel OK.

0:42:180:42:21

It's just, yeah, controlling the nerves, keeping it Zen.

0:42:230:42:27

My name is Corien Staels,

0:42:360:42:38

founder and CEO of Staels Design and developer of wheelAIR,

0:42:380:42:41

an award-winning battery-powered airflow backrest cushion.

0:42:410:42:44

WheelAIR increases your comfort and keeps you cool,

0:42:440:42:47

combining function with style.

0:42:470:42:48

Today, I'm here to sell you 15% of my company in return for £75,000.

0:42:500:42:56

So, how does it work? As you can see on that wheelchair, there's a unit

0:42:560:42:59

underneath. That unit basically sucks air in at the bottom,

0:42:590:43:02

pushes it up and then gently pushes it out onto your back,

0:43:020:43:05

creating a general feeling of cooling.

0:43:050:43:07

We believe that with wheelAIR we can capture £45 million

0:43:080:43:12

in the UK alone.

0:43:120:43:13

And we've had lots of interest so far and we're working with some

0:43:130:43:15

fantastic Paralympic athletes,

0:43:150:43:17

such as double Paralympian Michael Kerr,

0:43:170:43:19

who I've got with me today.

0:43:190:43:20

With your help, we want to go into distributing and into manufacturing,

0:43:200:43:24

because with your help we can change every wheelchair user's life.

0:43:240:43:28

Thank you very much. Would anyone like to try it out?

0:43:290:43:32

I would, actually, yes.

0:43:320:43:33

A slick pitch from Corien Staels, who's looking for £75,000...

0:43:350:43:41

You have a simple remote.

0:43:410:43:42

..in exchange for 15% of her company,

0:43:420:43:46

making air conditioning cushions for wheelchairs.

0:43:460:43:49

-It's already...

-Exactly.

-..cool.

-Yeah.

0:43:490:43:52

It worked in seconds for Deborah Meaden,

0:43:520:43:54

and she's keen to get some first-hand feedback

0:43:540:43:57

from the invention's Paralympian user Michael Kerr.

0:43:570:44:00

Michael, how long have you been using this?

0:44:020:44:06

I've been trialling this on and off now for a few months.

0:44:070:44:10

It's a great piece of kit for somebody like myself.

0:44:100:44:13

I had a spinal cord injury back in 2000,

0:44:130:44:16

resulting in paralysis from the chest down,

0:44:160:44:20

so when I get too hot, I just keep getting hotter and hotter

0:44:200:44:23

because I don't have the ability to sweat any more.

0:44:230:44:26

So, having something like this obviously helps me regulate my body

0:44:260:44:30

-temperature.

-Thank you.

0:44:300:44:32

Thank you.

0:44:320:44:33

A winning endorsement from a Paralympic athlete

0:44:340:44:37

is not a bad start to Corien's pitch.

0:44:370:44:40

And now Touker Suleyman's wondering what's driving her ambition.

0:44:400:44:45

So, what gave you the inspiration?

0:44:450:44:47

So, there was a woman at university who was a wheelchair user,

0:44:470:44:49

and she said, "You know, a lot of people have overheating issues.

0:44:490:44:52

"Maybe you can make a cooling clothing line." I said,

0:44:520:44:54

"Well, I'll drop the clothing line, but I can solve the issue."

0:44:540:44:57

And what about yourself?

0:44:580:44:59

-What's your background?

-So, I studied in Amsterdam,

0:44:590:45:03

so I did a Bachelors in international fashion management

0:45:030:45:07

there for four years,

0:45:070:45:08

and then I came to Glasgow to do my Masters in international business

0:45:080:45:11

-and entrepreneurship.

-Whoa! Yeah.

0:45:110:45:13

-All with distinction.

-Perhaps I can give you a job!

0:45:130:45:15

SHE LAUGHS

0:45:150:45:18

A grade-A student putting her skills to good use.

0:45:200:45:23

Corien is getting top marks from Touker Suleyman.

0:45:230:45:27

But Deborah Meaden wants a progress report on the business.

0:45:280:45:32

Just so I understand where you are at the moment.

0:45:340:45:36

Are you actually in production?

0:45:360:45:38

No, currently we have four prototypes at work.

0:45:380:45:40

We currently don't have the funding to go into manufacturing

0:45:400:45:44

-so that's why we're here today.

-And made in the UK at the moment?

0:45:440:45:48

So, the foam is made in Italy,

0:45:480:45:51

and the cover is made in Tunisia.

0:45:510:45:53

So, and the rest is made in Glasgow and will be in the UK.

0:45:540:45:58

And do you know about how much it's going to cost to make?

0:45:580:46:01

Yes. It costs us £127.

0:46:010:46:04

£127 to make.

0:46:040:46:06

So, what do you think you're going to be selling it out at?

0:46:060:46:08

It's retailing at 575.

0:46:080:46:10

I think that's quite expensive.

0:46:120:46:13

-Mm-hm.

-It's a very, very cleverly designed, simple product.

0:46:130:46:18

-Yeah.

-And the raw materials are not that expensive.

0:46:180:46:20

If you really wanted to do volume on it,

0:46:220:46:25

I know a little bit about textiles,

0:46:250:46:27

you could probably bring that down dramatically.

0:46:270:46:30

The king of outsourcing, Touker Suleyman,

0:46:320:46:35

spots the potential to lower Corien's production costs.

0:46:350:46:39

Jenny Campbell's more interested in how much the product will set the

0:46:390:46:43

consumer back.

0:46:430:46:45

How did you come to a price point of 575?

0:46:450:46:49

If I price it too low, you don't get the credibility.

0:46:490:46:51

If it's too high, no-one will buy it.

0:46:510:46:54

But with 575, it covers our overheads really well.

0:46:540:46:57

I think you've got a great product,

0:46:590:47:01

and it solves a very important purpose.

0:47:010:47:03

I think it's just...

0:47:030:47:04

..the cost, £575, is a lot,

0:47:060:47:09

and I think you could end up struggling to convince people.

0:47:090:47:13

But if you want to get a bigger market,

0:47:130:47:15

you want something that's more affordable.

0:47:150:47:17

Tej Lalvani thinks the product's price tag

0:47:200:47:22

could limit its mass-market appeal,

0:47:220:47:25

which has left Peter Jones wondering

0:47:250:47:28

how Corien's future sales are likely to stack up.

0:47:280:47:32

What's your forecast, your three-year forecast?

0:47:340:47:37

Three-year forecast total is, uh...

0:47:370:47:40

The...

0:47:400:47:42

I always calculate in Dutch.

0:47:430:47:46

So, it will be about 2.5 million, I guess, turnover.

0:47:460:47:50

And how many products would that be?

0:47:500:47:52

That is... Oh, I've got this all written down exactly but it'll be...

0:47:520:47:54

Uh...

0:47:540:47:56

Would you like to see the sheet that has all the...?

0:47:580:48:01

No, no, I just want you to tell me.

0:48:010:48:03

OK. I think we're selling about 1,000 products by year three.

0:48:030:48:07

1,000 total of these products?

0:48:070:48:09

No, they'll be...

0:48:090:48:11

-Do you mean combined?

-So what other products?

0:48:110:48:14

You're pitching this today,

0:48:140:48:15

but there's other products you haven't created yet?

0:48:150:48:17

We're actually applying for a grant now to develop a more technically

0:48:170:48:21

advanced version of this that's heating and cooling.

0:48:210:48:23

But instead of applying for grants,

0:48:230:48:25

why don't you try and create a business,

0:48:250:48:27

make some money and reinvest the money?

0:48:270:48:28

-I do, I do. But...

-Instead of using public funds.

-I do.

0:48:280:48:32

The whole thing about entrepreneurship is that

0:48:320:48:34

you're trying to create a business and be self-sustainable,

0:48:340:48:37

and build a business and utilise those retained profits.

0:48:370:48:40

With the right grant, we can hire people, so it's basically

0:48:400:48:42

-just without profit...

-No, but you can hire a lot more people

0:48:420:48:45

-if you start making money in your business.

-Yeah, and we will.

0:48:450:48:47

How many of these will you sell in three years?

0:48:470:48:49

I'll sell at least 200 in the first year,

0:48:520:48:54

450 in the second year, so, say, 800.

0:48:540:48:58

800?

0:48:580:49:00

And what will be the revenue if you sell 800?

0:49:010:49:04

Uh, so, 800...

0:49:040:49:05

Uh... Uh... 4 million?

0:49:080:49:10

And what will be your gross margin?

0:49:130:49:15

Um... Gross margin on that...

0:49:150:49:17

Uh... I don't know by heart.

0:49:190:49:21

I think 300.

0:49:210:49:23

No... Uh...

0:49:230:49:25

I'm sorry.

0:49:260:49:27

-What's happened here?

-I don't know. I have my numbers but I just...

0:49:300:49:33

I know I have a turnover for five years per month

0:49:330:49:35

and I know exactly how much I sell...

0:49:350:49:37

But, Corien, you're a distinction student.

0:49:370:49:39

Yes.

0:49:390:49:41

So, Corien, what's going on now?

0:49:410:49:43

-Is this pressure? Are you feeling pressure?

-Yes.

0:49:430:49:46

It's doing all the numbers just, like, out of my head.

0:49:460:49:49

-OK. We're at 300K.

-Mm-hm.

-And now a valuation.

0:49:490:49:52

Where do you come to a valuation of half a million

0:49:520:49:54

where you sit today with a product that's not launched?

0:49:540:49:56

I am so sorry, but I am going to pass out.

0:49:580:50:01

I don't know why. I'm seeing only black.

0:50:010:50:03

-Oh.

-Do you want some water here?

-Sit down.

0:50:030:50:05

-Here you are.

-Sit down here.

0:50:050:50:07

-Sit down here.

-Have some water.

0:50:070:50:09

-I'm sorry.

-It's fine, it's fine, it's fine.

0:50:120:50:14

-Take a break.

-It's fine, don't worry.

0:50:140:50:16

-Breathe and...

-I'm really not feeling well.

0:50:160:50:18

It's just my sugar sometimes drops.

0:50:180:50:19

It's fine. It's fine. Don't worry.

0:50:190:50:22

It's OK, I've got the cooling cushion on.

0:50:220:50:24

-LAUGHTER

-Good answer.

0:50:240:50:26

The pressure of the Den has proved too much for Corien.

0:50:310:50:35

Everything just goes black.

0:50:350:50:36

Forced to abandon her pitch midway, she's taken out to recover.

0:50:360:50:40

The interrogation by the Dragons

0:50:420:50:44

has left holes in her financial forecast.

0:50:440:50:47

But, feeling better, Corien decides to return to the Den.

0:50:500:50:54

How are you feeling?

0:51:000:51:01

Bit shaky still but better.

0:51:010:51:03

-I'm so sorry about that.

-That's all right.

0:51:030:51:04

It's straight back to business for Jenny Campbell,

0:51:060:51:09

who is quick to turn up the heat.

0:51:090:51:11

Corien, let me tell you where I am.

0:51:120:51:15

There's a lot of things I don't like.

0:51:160:51:18

You clearly come under pressure under your numbers,

0:51:200:51:22

despite you being a distinction student.

0:51:220:51:25

You haven't shown the business acumen that comes with this,

0:51:250:51:27

not to me.

0:51:270:51:29

The thing I take most issue with is an 85% margin

0:51:290:51:32

for a product where you're trying to help people.

0:51:320:51:35

I take issue with it, and I don't have confidence in you becoming

0:51:380:51:42

a businesswoman and this being scalable.

0:51:420:51:44

And for that reason, Corien, I am out.

0:51:470:51:50

Thank you.

0:51:500:51:51

Affronted by Corien's mark-up

0:51:530:51:55

and lacking confidence in her business skills,

0:51:550:51:58

Jenny Campbell becomes the first Dragon out.

0:51:580:52:01

Can health tycoon Tej Lalvani revive this rapidly deflating pitch?

0:52:020:52:08

I think there's quite a bit of risk.

0:52:080:52:10

However, I think that, if it's a unique product...

0:52:130:52:17

..with the right support and the right backing, it could do OK.

0:52:190:52:23

So...

0:52:240:52:25

..I'll offer you half the money for...

0:52:270:52:29

..20% of the company.

0:52:350:52:36

Tej Lalvani comes to the rescue,

0:52:380:52:40

breathing new life into the entrepreneur's pitch.

0:52:400:52:43

But he's only willing to put up half of the £75,000,

0:52:430:52:47

and that's for a whopping 20% of the company.

0:52:470:52:50

A double deal with textile tycoon Touker Suleyman

0:52:510:52:54

could be right up Corien's street.

0:52:540:52:56

But can he come up with a two-for-one offer?

0:52:560:52:59

I'll tell you where I stand.

0:53:000:53:02

I don't think you can work on such huge margins.

0:53:020:53:06

If you could bring the cost of that unit down to £40,

0:53:060:53:10

then you could retail that for 199.

0:53:100:53:12

-How does that sound to you?

-It would

0:53:120:53:14

be ideal if you can get the cost prices down that low.

0:53:140:53:17

But we've just not been able to manage it ourselves.

0:53:170:53:19

OK, well, look, there are a lot of question marks.

0:53:190:53:21

-I'm the Dragon for you.

-Is that so?

0:53:230:53:26

-I think you know that.

-Mm.

0:53:260:53:28

And I'll share the risk with Tej,

0:53:320:53:34

so I'll give you the other half of the money...

0:53:340:53:36

..for 20%.

0:53:380:53:39

Quite a turnaround.

0:53:420:53:43

The whole £75,000 split between two Dragons with connections in global

0:53:430:53:49

health and textile businesses.

0:53:490:53:51

Peter Jones has held back since Corien almost fainted

0:53:530:53:56

during his financial cross-examination.

0:53:560:53:59

Has he reached a verdict?

0:53:590:54:02

What I feel is that there is...

0:54:020:54:04

..a real, huge opportunity, actually,

0:54:050:54:08

for your product to enter the market,

0:54:080:54:11

and you can see how it's potentially life-changing.

0:54:110:54:14

I'm going to make you an offer.

0:54:150:54:17

But mine is conditional upon the fact that, if Deborah is interested,

0:54:190:54:24

that I would share with Deborah.

0:54:240:54:26

I'm going to offer you half of the money...

0:54:270:54:29

..for just 15%.

0:54:320:54:33

So, Corien...

0:54:420:54:43

I don't know if you know,

0:54:450:54:46

a very close member of my family is in a wheelchair.

0:54:460:54:49

As a result of my sister's problems...

0:54:490:54:53

..I've actually been involved with a project designing a wheelchair.

0:54:550:54:58

OK.

0:54:580:54:59

I would have made you an offer in any event.

0:55:010:55:03

But Peter and I work very well together.

0:55:060:55:07

We've worked on many other projects, and I know we can both add value.

0:55:070:55:12

So, I'm going to make you an offer.

0:55:120:55:14

It will be for half of the money.

0:55:150:55:17

It will be for 15%.

0:55:170:55:19

And it will be to match Peter's offer.

0:55:190:55:21

OK.

0:55:220:55:23

It's a massive turnaround

0:55:240:55:26

as a Meaden-Jones partnership

0:55:260:55:29

undercuts Tej Lalvani and Touker Suleyman's joint offer

0:55:290:55:33

by 10%.

0:55:330:55:35

And it's not over yet.

0:55:350:55:37

I would just say that I would change my offer to 15%,

0:55:380:55:42

to match Deborah and Peter's if Tej agrees.

0:55:420:55:46

I don't think there's anyone here that's more passionate about health.

0:55:460:55:49

That is MY business.

0:55:490:55:51

That's what we do. We help improve people's lives.

0:55:510:55:53

So, I'm willing to drop my percentage from 20 to 15%...

0:55:530:55:58

-Yes.

-..to match Touker's.

0:55:580:55:59

This is a very difficult decision.

0:56:030:56:05

And I'll tell you what we'll do,

0:56:050:56:07

if we get our money back, I'll drop it to ten.

0:56:070:56:09

You've gone 30, 25... And poor... That lady hasn't even said anything.

0:56:090:56:12

-TEJ:

-Well, no, it just shows how passionate we are

0:56:120:56:15

-about what she's doing.

-Because I don't want you to have it!

0:56:150:56:18

Four Dragons have set out their offers

0:56:180:56:21

and Corien's firmly in the driving seat.

0:56:210:56:23

Peter and Deborah, are you...

0:56:240:56:26

..willing to match what they said with giving me back percentage

0:56:270:56:31

if you make back the money?

0:56:310:56:32

I'm happy to drop on the repayment down to 10%.

0:56:320:56:37

-Very happy to.

-Um...

0:56:370:56:39

I think I'm going to go with Deborah and Peter.

0:56:440:56:46

-Oh!

-Sorry.

-Eh!

0:56:460:56:49

Good. Very pleased.

0:56:490:56:51

-Brilliant.

-Well done. Amazing.

-Thank you.

0:56:510:56:53

Corien, we were happy to get you a better deal

0:56:530:56:55

from the other Dragons anyway, so...

0:56:550:56:57

Do I just leave? Yes? OK.

0:56:570:56:59

Corien exits the Den,

0:56:590:57:01

but this time feeling triumphant

0:57:010:57:04

with a pledge of £75,000 and two seasoned Dragons.

0:57:040:57:08

I wanted that!

0:57:080:57:10

SHE LAUGHS

0:57:100:57:12

I can't believe how much it turned around! You know,

0:57:120:57:14

it's like they're trying to break you just to see,

0:57:140:57:17

and then in the end, they're like, "Oh, you're fantastic!"

0:57:170:57:19

I'm like, "What?!"

0:57:190:57:21

You never can tell what the Dragons are thinking in the Den.

0:57:250:57:29

As Corien found out, you can face the toughest of grillings,

0:57:290:57:33

believe it's all hopeless,

0:57:330:57:35

only to find you get four offers and have the Dragons fighting

0:57:350:57:39

for a piece of your business.

0:57:390:57:40

Coming up next time...

0:57:430:57:44

-Beautiful.

-I think it's really cool what you've done.

0:57:440:57:47

-Bye-bye.

-Bye.

-LAUGHTER

0:57:470:57:49

You've done well so far.

0:57:490:57:51

And he says he's not a salesman.

0:57:520:57:53

You'll never make any money out of it.

0:57:550:57:57

But who is Touker?

0:57:570:57:59

Touker, actually, is better known than you.

0:57:590:58:02

An investor will always want to see some level of investment

0:58:020:58:05

-from yourselves.

-Don't speak on my behalf.

0:58:050:58:07

Speak on your behalf.

0:58:070:58:09

Keep on dreaming. It's not going to be with my money.

0:58:090:58:12

I'm wondering if you've got entrepreneurial freeze.

0:58:120:58:15

I'm going to give you an offer straightaway.

0:58:150:58:17

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