Episode 7 Friday Night, Saturday Morning

# Friday night, Saturday morning

# Yesterday's gone, there's a weekend dawning

# Friday night Saturday morning blast

# Pack up your troubles, then

# Monday's the day for them

# Oh, it's time to relax again

# Friday night Saturday morning blast. #

APPLAUSE

Good evening. Tonight, every-expense-spared guests include

Paul Jones and the Blues Band,

the author of the book most frequently stolen from public libraries,

that's Norris McWhirter,

and four gentlemen who'll be discussing a controversial film inspired by the New Testament.

Only yesterday, in the Scotsman, a prominent news item headed "New Superstar Row"

revealed that the film Jesus Christ Superstar

has this week been banned from a cinema in the Western Isles as blasphemous.

A curse placed on another remote Scottish cinema

which dared to screen Superstar in 1976

led to the recent closure of that particular house of entertainment.

If Superstar still has this trouble nearly ten years after its creation,

what hope does Monty Python's Life of Brian have today?

Soon, the opinions of John Cleese, Michael Palin,

Malcolm Muggeridge and Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark.

Here's a moderately controversial clip from the film.

LAUGHTER

-Oh...!

-LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

-Hello, Mother!

-Don't you "Hello, Mother" me.

-What are all those people doing?

-Oh, well, I, er...

Come on, what have you been up to, my lad?

I think they must have popped by for something.

"Popped by"?! Swarmed by, more like! There's a multitude out there!

-They started following me yesterday.

-Well, they can stop following you right now.

Now stop following my son. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

ALL: The Messiah! The Messiah! Show us the Messiah!

-The who?

-The Messiah!

There's no Messiah in here. There's no Messiah. Now go away!

Brian! Brian!

Right, my lad, what have you been up to?

-Come on, out with it.

-Well, they think I'm the Messiah, Mum.

Show us the Messiah!

Now you listen 'ere. He's not the Messiah,

he's a very naughty boy. Now go away!

-Who are you?

-I'm his mother, that's who.

Behold his mother! Behold his mother!

Hail to thee,

mother of Brian!

Blessed art thou! Hosanna!

All praise to thee, now and always!

Now, don't think you can get around me like that.

He's not coming out, and that's my final word.

LAUGHTER

That extract featured Graham Chapman as Brian

and Terry Jones, who also directed the picture,

as Mandy, mother of Brian.

LAUGHTER

With us tonight, another one third of Monty Python,

John Cleese and Michael Palin.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Cracked.

-BBC cutbacks.

-Yep.

Michael, why the name Brian?

Well, I don't know, we've always used Brian in Python

to portray a certain sort of character,

a fairly anonymous and - I apologise to anyone called Brian -

slightly sort of...a touch dim.

No, not exactly dim. That's not fair. Slow to catch on.

There's a fighting chance of at least one Brian watching tonight,

-so be careful.

-Well, I don't know. Have you seen the figures?

Cheap, wasn't it?

No, actually, John was in the sketch about a footballer being interviewed

in one of the early Python shows,

and it was all,

"Brian, ball's in the back of the net, Brian."

"I'm openin' a boutique, Brian."

And it's one of the funny names, isn't it? It's like Trevor and Kevin.

I mean, they're just funny.

What inspired the film Life of Brian?

I mean, how did that strange idea take root,

and, indeed, in whose skull did it take root?

Well, we're not exactly certain.

It's always difficult to find the exact moment when it came up.

But I know that when we were going around the world

doing premieres for The Holy Grail

and we had a lot of time to spare in airports and cafes,

we got to thinking about a new film and what area we might go in.

And we were still keen to do a historical film.

It's more fun dressing up and all that.

We'd done the bowler-hatted City gents on Python.

And I think it was Eric who came up with this title out of the blue

called Jesus Christ: Lust For Glory.

LAUGHTER

I must admit that when we started talking about it,

we actually explored the idea of doing a comedy film about Jesus,

with all the jokes about

someone trying to book a table for 12 at the Last Supper.

"Sorry, sir, Saturday night - I'll do you three fours."

"Come in tomorrow." "No, it's got to be tonight." And all those jokes.

But the more we read about Jesus and the background to his life,

it was obvious that there was very little to ridicule in Jesus's life

and therefore we were sort of onto a loser.

The characters we like to portray in Python are failures, are dim,

are idiotic, are incapable in one way or another.

Jesus was a straight, direct man making very good sense.

And so we decided that it would be just a rather shallow film

just about Jesus, so we got Brian in.

You must have known, though, even in those early days,

you were heading for trouble and criticism and controversy,

because you were well known and, to put it mildly,

-the subject matter's quite well known.

-Yeah.

-Did that worry you?

I feel that in Python we've always thrived on that.

It's always been an uphill struggle.

So what came first? I mean, was it the laughter idea or the message?

I mean, which was the first of the two?

It's the laughter. We go for the jokes first.

The reason that it sounded like an interesting territory to go into, to explore...

When you go in, you don't know what you'll write.

We sit around for about three days discussing what to write

then write something completely different.

And the film actually starts

when somebody comes in halfway through the second week

and reads something out and we all laugh.

That's the first point on the graph. You see?

Then we wait another week and somebody else writes something funny,

and we have two points on the graph.

And when we've got six or seven, we write stuff to join it together.

It's a pretty slow process, cos it's sort of democracy gone mad.

It took a long time for Brian to really get off the ground.

We wrote an awful lot which was then just thrown away

because it was struggling too hard to be sort of controversial.

Well, Mike, I don't know I agree with that,

because I don't think that we were coming in with stuff about Christ.

We started writing round the edges,

the people who'd arrive five minutes after the miracle had been done...

LAUGHTER

..which is as bad as being 2,000 years late.

It's almost as if you didn't see it,

whether you're five minutes late or whatever.

Actually, we did have the idea that he was the 13th disciple, didn't we?

-A sort of slight hanger-on.

-Yes, that's right.

He was going to write a gospel, but he was always late.

-It was also called Brian of Nazareth at one point, wasn't it?

-Yeah. Yeah.

You changed that title, yet that would have worked, wouldn't it?

Well, I always thought that that title

somehow asked for the comparison with Jesus of Nazareth,

the Powell thing, too much. It looked as though we were going for the comparison.

But you apparently used

Lew Grade's sets from Jesus of Nazareth.

Didn't you in fact use the same scenario?

The ones he hadn't taken down!

Yes, we used them for building our own sets in.

There was temples there in Monastir, this place in Tunisia.

It was luck really, because at one stage we were looking...

I think there were five or six places we might have shot it -

Italy, Spain, Jordan,

Israel, Morocco, Tunisia,

and I think we decided Tunisia eventually,

partly because we thought

there might be religious trouble in the Catholic countries

and partly because they'd been making a lot of films

in the last two or three years in Tunisia.

When you said, "Get the rushes here in the morning,"

you arrive and the rushes are there.

There's practically an industry there of making films about Jesus,

-cos Rossellini had made a film...

-Who?

-..then Lew Grade was there.

Rossellini, an Italian director, made a film about Jesus.

-Don't worry.

-I missed that one!

He thought he was a footballer, didn't he?

No, I thought it was a food!

For FC Turin. No, Rossellini made this film.

I thought it was rather good, actually!

"Yeah, he was a bit slow. Second half he was very good!"

LAUGHTER

"Got the ball, and there it was in the back of the stand."

If he's watching, I'm sorry, but I've never heard of the guy.

-Well, he's made a film about Jesus.

-Has it come out?

-Yes, I think so.

The extraordinary thing is, Tim - I don't know all the facts,

because I was only told four days ago -

but apparently there are now four "funny" films about the Bible

-coming out in the next three months.

-As a result of Brian?

Well, I don't know. It may just be coincidence.

Mind you, we've been talking about it for three years, so maybe the idea...

How did the whole thing get together?

You had this great idea in an airport lounge or wherever,

and still you have a fairly long way to go from Terminal 2

to...screens all over the world.

It was a very big airport!

-It took us ages.

-It is that pragmatic thing...

Because you had trouble with the cash and backers pulling out.

Oh, terrible trouble, yes.

In fact, if George Harrison hadn't known Eric Idle,

the film wouldn't have been made.

Because although the Americans, after the EMI thing fell through...

LAUGHTER

I didn't say anything!

LAUGHTER

-"Fell through"?!

-Fell through. Fell through. Failed to happen,

as it were.

We then went to America,

and they were all prepared to give us a little bit of money,

but not as much as we needed to make the film.

We needed, I think, 2.5 million to make it for the American territories,

and they wouldn't give us more than 1.75.

So come the middle of the year, we realised we weren't going to make it.

Out of the blue, John Goldstone, the producer, said,

"Well, I've got one more meeting, with George Harrison,"

and George Harrison, which I think is really

one of the great, almost magnificent acts of the century,

said he was quite happy to put up £1 million

for no other reason, apparently, than that he wanted to see the movie. LAUGHTER

It's true, yeah.

Weren't you all in some danger of splitting up,

or at least some internal conflict? Or did the film bring you together?

Yes. I mean, I think it did.

After Grail, there was about a year spent in the wilderness, as it were,

no-one sure what they wanted to do, and people trying their own things -

Fawlty Towers or Ripping Yarns or whatever.

Also, there was a stage when we hated each other.

LAUGHTER

-CAMP:

-Well, I never hated you.

LAUGHTER

Whatever any of the others may say, I always liked you.

What about your solo projects?

Are there going to be any more Ripping Yarns, Fawlty Towers?

There'll be no more Fawlty Towers.

LAUGHTER

APPLAUSE

He sent me a wonderful telegram last week,

when I had my 40th birthday, and it read,

"We loved the first 40. Are you going to do any more?"

LAUGHTER

-They got it right.

-Well, are you?

-Is there going to be a...?

-I don't think so, no.

I feel we've done that, just as I felt about Python and the telly,

that you reach a point and it's the law of diminishing returns. You COULD go on...

And does that mean there won't be any more Pythons on the telly?

-Highly unlikely at the moment.

-But not totally ruled out.

Well, not totally. I don't think anything is absolutely,

definitely ruled out.

What I hate is the sausage machine,

and you get into it the moment you sign on the dotted line -

13 shows, that's eight months in the diary filming, editing, rehearsing.

It's much nicer to take one two-hour or hour-and-a-half thing like a film

and spend a lot of time,

and then you can savour it and explore and talk -

better than having to get everything written every day.

See, John gets very depressed by work. He doesn't like work.

I mean, what I feel

about the Python shows is I don't know where we would start off.

I think we almost did everything in those three series,

and I just don't know how we'd begin.

We're practically doing it tonight. We were saying, it's terribly funny -

it struck us that here we are,

and a bishop and Malcolm Muggeridge are going to come on.

LAUGHTER

-"In the studio tonight..."

-And it's not a sketch!

LAUGHTER

APPLAUSE

Are you implying that possibly there might be

a third - or fourth, rather, fourth - Python movie, a full-length film?

-This is certainly on the cards?

-Yes...

-In fact, we're meeting. November 19th?

-Monday week.

Your place.

To discuss this very thing.

I think it's very likely that we'll do another film.

But again, we want to see if there's

an area nobody's gone into, because the one thing about this film...

I mean, I really like it,

and there's a lot of stuff we've done I don't like that much.

I really like this and there are moments when I watch it and I think,

"I haven't seen anything like this before on the screen."

-LAUGHTER

-Is there anything that

you think could offend YOU on screen?

LAUGHTER I...

I have one tiny quibble, and I think that...

that Terry Jones and Graham Chapman would no doubt disagree with me,

that I think that the crucifixion thing at the end is not about pain -

-it's about death and they are very separate.

-So what's your beef?

My beef is that there are one or two close-ups

of one or two people registering pain.

And I think that that confuses what the last thing's about

because, I mean, one's not really making fun of the fact

that someone has been flayed till his flesh hung down and then nailed up.

The point of that last bit is it's about death.

You know, it's about attitudes to death.

And it's quite possible to be relatively cheery about death -

quite possible. Not saying that it's easy.

Oh, yes. Well, for the moment, gentlemen, thank you very much.

I think we ought to see another clip from the movie.

No, would you please...

-LAUGHTER

-..stay where you are?

We're going to see a second clip from the film,

and, after that, we'll be joined by two gentlemen

who don't normally review movies

but who, this evening, went to see it on our behalf.

Hey, is there another way down?

Is there another path down to the river?

Please, please, help me! I've got to...

CLAMOURING

Oh, my foot!

Oh, bastard!

He is here! The shoe!

THEY SHOUT OVER EACH OTHER

-Speak! Speak to us, master, speak to us!

-Go away!

-ALL:

-A blessing! A blessing!

-How shall we go away, master?

-Just go away and leave me alone!

-Give us a sign!

He HAS given us a sign! He has brought us to this place!

I didn't bring you here, you just followed me!

Oh, it's still a good sign by any standard.

Master, your people have walked many miles to be with you,

they are weary and have not eaten!

It's not my fault they haven't eaten!

There is no food in this high mountain!

Well, what about the juniper bushes over there?

-ALL:

-Ah! A miracle! A miracle!

He has made the bush fruitful by his words!

They've brought forth juniper berries.

Of course they've brought forth juniper berries,

they're juniper bushes! What do you expect?!

-Show us another miracle!

-Do not tempt him, shallow ones!

Is not the miracle of the juniper bushes enough?

-I say, those are my juniper bushes!

-They are a gift from God!

They're all I've bloody got to eat!

-Lord! I am affected by a bald patch.

-I am healed!

The master has healed me!

-I didn't touch him!

-I was blind and now I can see!

Aaargh!

An... And our guests...

APPLAUSE

And our guests are Malcolm Muggeridge

and Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark.

I'd like to ask you, Bishop, first, what was your view of the film?

First of all, I was very glad to think that you simply

can't get rid of Jesus in Europe today.

Ceausescu of Romania, who I think thought like most communists

that they're going to get rid of religion very quickly,

found that as he said,

it's going to hang around with us for quite a long time.

And, certainly, when you think about the greatest attractions

on the stage, whether it's films and, I mean, acting,

ever since Jesus Christ Superstar, that's what's drawn the crowds.

I mean, Jesus is a most disturbing influence.

You simply can't get away from him.

You may worship him, respect him, commit your life to him

or just ridicule him and lampoon him, but you simply can't get rid of him

and this is what I think is a very, very interesting fact.

Even in China, in the changeover now, they tried to...

they thought Chairman Mao's thoughts had replaced the thoughts of Jesus,

but poor old Mao and the gang of four now really are on the dog heap

and Jesus is being allowed back. So that, first of all,

is something which I find extremely interesting. Now, the...

The...the second thing I...

Well, here's a question I would ask, er...

what...are you really trying to say in this film?

I believe you were on this a wee bit earlier, but unfortunately,

we only got the picture outside and not the voice, which was...

LAUGHTER ..something that husbands might want of their wives, but...

LAUGHTER

So we didn't quite hear your defence of it, but what I...

What are you really trying to say? I wasn't in the least bit horrified.

People said, "Bishop, when you go there, you will be absolutely horrified." I wasn't at all.

After all, I wasn't vicar of the University Church for nothing.

I mean, I'm familiar with undergraduate humour.

LAUGHTER

APPLAUSE

And I'm also a governor of a mentally deficient school.

LAUGHTER

And once I was a prep school master and I felt frightfully at home,

as though I was just back on old familiar ground this evening.

But I really wondered, I mean, what you were trying to say.

I do hope you don't think I'm being unkind,

because I know some of you and I'm very fond of you

and have respect for you, but I say this,

quite frankly, I simply don't think it was worthy of you.

It was the sort of thing, as I say, that, at Cambridge,

the Footlights did on a damp Tuesday afternoon.

Or the lower fourth when I was a schoolmaster.

LAUGHTER

-Did you in fact...?

-I just don't know what you were saying.

The third thing, unless I get rather more serious,

I mean...

why lampoon death? I think this is the thing that

really, er, you know, sort of worried me.

I don't think well to make a farce about Auschwitz.

Or of death. I mean, whatever we think about Jesus,

we may think he was the son of God,

we may think he was a mistaken fanatic.

But it was a pretty shattering thing what happened, the Crucifixion.

And, do you know, as I, as I looked at that

and I thought of now,

the way people react to the cross and, after all,

I'm not ashamed to wear the cross here, which is the sign of a bishop.

Er, when I look at that figure...

I mean, I know you're going to say Brian isn't Jesus,

but that's just rubbish. It was the, er...

The whole thing is quite clearly...

If no Jesus had lived, that film wouldn't have been produced.

-But did you feel the film actually ridiculed Jesus?

-Yes, I did.

Even though it wasn't about him?

Well, I'm afraid I can't take that it wasn't about him.

I mean, I put that to you as a matter of honesty.

If Jesus of Nazareth had never existed,

there would never been a Jesus and this film of Brian

would never have been produced, I'm sure that is so.

-Could I bring Mal...?

-If I... LAUGHTER

If I might just say, and then do come and cross-examine me then,

but my mind is still working on that last scene, sort of the reaction.

I mean, there, it seemed,

sort of a tremendous joke and people were laughing.

And then you think of the reaction of a person like Mother Teresa

to that scene, what it meant for her.

Now, she's a saint, I am not.

But every day of the week, I either say mass or I'm present at mass,

as I was this morning, in the early hours, and I broke the bread,

"This is my body," I took the cup, "This is my blood,"

and I didn't roar around with laughter at the altar in my chapel this morning.

I just fell down, genuflected and worshipped,

and said, "My Lord and my God."

Now, er...

I don't think, really... You come and get at me now.

-Well, I...

-I'm not criticising any of you personally.

I hasten to say I had nothing to do with the film whatsoever.

LAUGHTER

But before I ask John and Michael to perhaps answer those points, could I bring in Malcolm

-and ask your review, if review is the right word?

-Certainly, yes.

Remember that I was engaged for four years in the appalling task

of trying to make English people laugh as editor of Punch!

It's an almost impossible thing to do.

-LAUGHTER

-But I couldn't help feeling

enormous envy of the ease with which

this particular film aroused laughter,

you simply had to use a four-letter word

or display a man's private parts in the window

and the whole place fell on the ground with laughter.

LAUGHTER

So that I, you know, professionally felt rather put out by that.

Also, of course, I agree entirely with the bishop

that it is quite humbug to say

that this is not, um, a ridiculing

of the founder of the Christian religion and of the Incarnation,

in an extremely cheap and tenth-rate way.

Remember that that story of the Incarnation

was what our whole civilisation began with.

Remember that it has inspired every great artist,

every great writer, every great composer, every great builder,

every great architect, that is to celebrate that marvellous thing.

Germany, the Inquisition and so forth, it sort of...

-Yes, the Inquisition...

-LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

But, er, nothing can alter the fact that,

if you were to make a list of all the greatest works of art,

in all fields, and all the greatest contributors to those works of art,

you would find that this scene of the Incarnation,

this story of the Incarnation, has played the largest part.

Now, in our 20th century, the...

this film produces a sort of graffiti version of it.

And I don't think, in the eyes of posterity,

it will have a very distinguished place.

The bishop mentioned Mother Teresa and I was thinking of her too,

because, to her, you see, and it's something that

the makers of this programme maybe didn't even think of,

but the person of Jesus Christ,

not as a historical figure,

not as someone in the past, but someone living in the world now,

has been the essence of her existence.

I once asked her what was the difference

between what she did and what social workers do.

And she said, "Well, the point is that social workers

"are very estimable people, but they do something.

"They serve their fellows for an idea,

"I served my fellows for a person. And if that person wasn't there,

"or if that person was in some way discredited, then my work is over."

And there are many people in the world,

despite the fact that the media would suggest the contrary,

to whom still this living presence of Jesus Christ in the world

is the most essential part of their existence.

And you produce it in a film as a derisory and absurd figure

and, of course, to someone who has that feeling, as Mother Teresa has,

or someone like Catherine Bramwell-Booth has,

they are deeply hurt and insulted. That doesn't in itself matter.

I'd like to put another point to you that occurred to me whilst watching it.

Malcolm, sorry to interrupt, but is it possible for John to answer one or two of those points...

-Certainly.

-..otherwise we'll have nine points unanswered?

-Yes, it's building up the list of it.

Yes... But seriously, the problem we have got

is that you think that we're ridiculing Jesus

and we say, um, sort of sincerely and truthfully,

that that is certainly not what we intended to do

and I believe that we're not, and I can best answer that, I think, by

answering the question, which is that, um,

"What were we trying to do?" And I think it comes out,

spelled out perhaps rather too plainly,

rather too banally at one point, when he says,

"Make up your own mind, don't let other people tell you,"

and we would absolutely deny, at least I would,

that there was any attempt to say, "You should not believe in Christ."

What we're saying is, take a critical view.

Find out about it, don't just believe because somebody tells you to.

-Someone in a pulpit says something, question it, work it out...

-You're seriously suggesting that,

-if someone saw that film, say a young kid...

-Mm-hm.

-..who knew nothing about the Gospels or about history...

-Mm-hm.

..that the figure of Christ that would emerge from it,

this story of the Incarnation,

would be a noble one, um, would be...?

-He would have to sort it out for himself.

-You feel...?

-He would have to work out...

I mean, does one accept every word in the Bible? The Sermon on the Mount?

Did they get it all right when Mark wrote it down 30 years later?

I mean, was...? LAUGHTER

But is the film likely to be seen by anybody who doesn't know an awful lot about Jesus Christ?

Most certain it is today. If you have it for children of 14 today,

you will find that the many, many children of 14 today,

thanks to the secular nature of the education they're receiving,

know nothing about it at all and they would see this figure...

-I think...

-..in the light in which he appears in this film, you see.

It's no good cheating yourselves, you can't have it both ways.

You produce this particular film, which arouses bursts of laughter,

as I said earlier, rather easily procured,

but don't imagine that someone seeing that is going to go away

with a concept of the founder of the Christian religion,

and all that that meant to mankind, in any way corresponding

to what history or the Gospels or anything else has presented.

It's not supposed to be about him, so people shouldn't

-see it to learn about him.

-It's no good saying that...

-I'm not being dishonest!

-You're being utterly dishonest.

-Can I just say? Yeah, I mean,

I don't know where this will get us, but I feel my approach to the film,

I was confused, I feel I'm still asking questions, seeking solutions,

I am very confused and perturbed by a religion,

an established religion in this country,

where people can go into church on a Sunday morning,

and the same people can sing hymns and say prayers,

and, at the same time, these people can stand by

while their money is spent making bombs, making guns,

building up appalling weapons of destruction,

can sit by, sing hymns, say their prayers,

and agree with a policy in which hospitals have to go without money.

I'd like to know where you get your evidence. You've just given chapter and verse.

It so happens, immediately before coming here, I was asked by a crowd of church people

if I would stand up for the... sorry, for the...for the health...

of St Olive's Hospital, which the Government is trying to close.

The Church is extremely active in these, er, in these fields

and I would urge you not to make these careless generalisations which are not dependent on evidence.

-Now...

-I make them in all humility, I'm seeking answers and solutions,

I'm not saying this is absolutely the way it is, but I have observed.

Well, what you were saying if I may say so, was sheer rubbish!

SOME GASPS FROM THE AUDIENCE

You made a ridiculous generalisation, which is unworthy of an educated man.

Now, having said this, back to what you say,

somebody aged 14 coming and seeing this thing of Jesus,

what you are seeing is not one of the greatest teachers in the world,

I mean, granted, lots of people, the majority of people wouldn't

accept him as the son of God, as I do, but surely most of us

would see him as one of the greatest teachers of the world.

Now, you wouldn't guy Socrates or make him appear as a clown.

-What I think this film...

-Maybe there are funny things about him.

-What?

Maybe there are funny things about Socrates, why not make jokes?

Well, the aspects... LAUGHTER

-Not Socrates.

-No, no.

-APPLAUSE

-That's not my point, I don't know enough about Socrates...

-Socrates also was murdered.

He was made to drink poison.

You wouldn't guy him at that point or make him appear as a clown.

What I say, and I'm afraid you won't alter my conviction, John, over this,

is that, what is to a Christian the most sacred moment

of the whole Jesus experience, namely his death,

that is the most sacred moment,

that he was guyed and made to look as a clown.

May I make another point here, which is rather interesting?

-That if you had made that film about...

-LAUGHTER

..if you made that film about Muhammad, you see,

there would've been an absolute hullabaloo in this country,

because all the sort of, um, you know, the racial,

anti-racialist people would've risen up in their might,

the same people who would approve of this, and would've said this is quite disgraceful

and behind people's minds would be the thought

maybe they might lose a bit of oil, you know, by doing it. But the difference...

You're right! 400 years ago, we would have been burnt for this film.

Now, I'm suggesting that we've made an advance.

-LAUGHTER.

-And I'm suggesting...

APPLAUSE

And I'm suggesting that, compared with other presentations

of this great event, the Incarnation,

you have not made an advance and that anybody in the future

who might dredge up this miserable little film,

and it's quite possible they might as a piece of social history,

they would certainly not wish to relate it to the...

say, Chartres Cathedral, which is built...

-SOME LAUGHTER

-..to the glory of Christ.

Not a funny building. LAUGHTER

But they might want to compare it with Fawlty Towers!

Yes, not even intended to be a funny building.

Well, it has the gargoyles on it, you know.

-Michael?

-I think that, and I've seen this in the reviews of the film,

they concentrate always on the religious angle.

Even before they've seen it, they've decided it's a film about religion.

I don't think it is entirely. I think what we've chosen to do is

what we've always done in Python, for three series and three films -

taken a certain group of people, generally sort of England in the present day,

and put them in a historical context and that's what we did with this.

It isn't entirely about religion, it's about the people who live in,

anyone who lives and makes up our society today.

It's also about closed systems of thought,

whether political, theological, religious or whatever.

Systems by which whatever evidence is given to the person,

he merely adapts it, fits it into his ideology.

You show the same event to a Marxist and a Catholic, for example,

they both have explanations of it.

When it's to be pompous Poppers on about falsifiability of theories.

I mean, once you've actually got an idea that is whirring round so fast

that no other light or contrary evidence can come in, I think it's very dangerous.

Not dangerous to someone like Malcolm, because he is very nice,

but he is the sort of guy that this film is actually having a go at,

because I don't think any evidence will come now to make him rethink,

"Am I right? Am I making a mistake?"

Well, um, you can leave that out.

I think I can say with utter sincerity

that there is nothing in this particular film

that would lead me to want to change conclusions

that I've reached after living for 76 years in this world.

Is there anything? That's the point I'm making.

Well, in this film, there is nothing that could possibly,

-because the film itself bore so little to...

-The point I was making

was not the film, forget the film, you'd said it's rubbish.

-Will anything that can happen to you change your mind?

-Oh, certainly!

But of course, every single person who is alive, and spiritually alive,

is constantly reviewing his faith. I do not believe for a moment

that there is a definitive faith and you say, "There it is."

But there's nothing in this little squalid number that could

-possibly affect anybody...

-SOME GASPS

-..and, in that sense, I give you this point.

-Might it not...?

There's nothing in this film that could possibly destroy anybody's genuine faith,

that I grant you absolutely not.

Because it's much too tenth rate for that.

-LAUGHTER

-But the, the...

-SOME APPLAUSE

-But, um...

But what I still contend is that someone who is young,

14 years old, seeing that without any particular background

might really imagine that that buffoonery

-is an expression...

-Yes.

-..of this great episode.

Well, you see, I was also... You talked about the presentation of Christianity.

I went to an English preparatory school,

an English public school, Clifton College, the sports academy.

-I sympathise with you.

-LAUGHTER

I was given eight or ten years,

ten years of a form of Christianity which I grew to despise and dislike.

Largely, it insulted my intelligence.

The sermons that were given at the age of 11 and 12,

I felt insulted my intelligence.

When I got into writing this film, we all had exactly the same reaction.

We started to discover a lot of stuff about Christianity

and I started to get angry, because I started to think,

"Why was I given this rubbish, this tenth-rate series of platitudes,

"when there were interesting things to have discussed?

"There were factual things."

-You feel...?

-Nobody told me they don't know what language the Gospels were written in,

they don't know who wrote them and they're not sure what cities they were written in!

Then you must have read very superficially at your school.

It's bad luck of you, but I used to go to Clifton College to preach very often when you were there.

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

I know, I know the headmaster, I know the staff.

All I can say is, you must've been as idle a boy as...

LAUGHTER

..as splendid an actor as you are, because...

-I wasn't, I was always open.

-..because, you really, to take this... Seriously!

-I mean, you had some absolutely first-class teachers.

-Those services were a joke!

They were a joke!

-Only cos you made them so.

-No! I was...

-How do you know?

-I know people from your own period..

-I remember the sermons!

-..who are now priests in my own diocese.

-I remember the sermons, I remember...

-Tell me what I preached on?

No idea! LAUGHTER

I only remember the bad ones.

I remember a gentleman coming and telling us

how very difficult it had proved to get the Bible into Tibet.

They'd had seven occasions. The first time, there were landslides.

The second time, there were rains and the pages got stuck together.

LAUGHTER The third time... This is true!

The third time, the mules fell off the mountain. The fourth time, there were thunderbolts.

And the seventh time, he said, "God helped us and we got the Bibles into Tibet."

The obvious conclusion was that he was trying like hell to stop them!

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

John, I'm sorry, but you really are lampooning this,

because with O-levels and A-levels going on the whole time,

people have taken the Scriptures, they have had to study Greek,

perhaps Hebrew and have had to make a serious study of the Scriptures.

You chose not to do that.

-We made a superficial study...

-I'm sure you'd better things to do!

-We only had four years to write it!

We didn't want to get to specialist, because if we got too...

-I'm sorry. I don't think there's going to be much...

-Can I just ask?

I think, in theory, as a moderator, I'm supposed to be neutral.

Church of Scotland or Church of England?

AUDIENCE LAUGHS

-Moderator in the church.

-I'm in the middle.

I mean, I felt when I saw the film, and I saw it in New York

with a very appreciative audience, did you not feel that the people

being lampooned were in fact the followers rather than Jesus himself?

-I felt that very strongly.

-No, no, no.

I don't think so. It was... I really felt...

I mean, at the crucifixion above all else, which I felt sad about.

I mean, I'm quite sure, as all of us will one day

and this is not trying to attack your vulnerabilities,

but life is very short.

All of us go on our deathbeds in a comparatively short time

and when we are,

and that will be no laughing matter,

it is very much that Christ I would like to be held up in front of me

than the Christ I saw this afternoon.

-It did bring home to me...

-That's just...

-Sorry.

I was going to say very quickly that the film reminded me

of something I knew but tend to forget,

that it wasn't only Jesus that was crucified.

An awful lot of people were crucified in horrific circumstances

every day under Roman rule.

-Yes, that's very true.

-That fact came home in the film.

You realise that Jesus didn't have

a sort of total copyright on crucifixion?

Yeah, but Jesus was crucified, wasn't he, for his obedience

to the will of God.

-You can't say..

-He was crucified surely for blasphemy?

Well, they accused him of blasphemy

because he was obedient to the word of God and of his kingdom.

You can't say that came over today

with any of the people being crucified.

-But that wasn't...

-The whole way that it was done, they were not dying for a noble idea.

Well, neither were the...

Can I just make the point I was trying to make earlier on

about the film not being seen entirely in religious terms?

As Tim has said, people were crucified then as common criminals.

It was just a form then of capital punishment employed by the Romans

who were regarded as highly civilised.

But it was capital punishment

and in the film, we examine attitudes to capital punishment.

In this country, the majority of people, we are often told, are in favour of capital punishment.

It seems we haven't come that far in all that time.

Where do you think, in all these centuries of Christendom,

that the greatest minds, the most creative minds,

the greatest artists were believers in this thing

that you airily dismiss and say that you,

making this little film,

have managed to see deeply into it?

-I don't...

-You can't say... What about Bertrand Russell?

You dismiss them, of course. You don't care.

AUDIENCE LAUGHS

I said the centuries of Christendom. I didn't say in our time.

I said if you were to make a list of all the people

-who have contributed most...

-Most of them would have been Muslims

if they'd been living in Arab countries, or Buddhists...

What's that got to do with it?

LAUGHTER

These people were inspired by this event,

which you have celebrated in this film

by a lot of people on crosses, singing a sort of...

As if it was rather an inferior musical.

Death perhaps doesn't matter that much.

Which is what you're saying the whole time.

-You're looking forward to it?

-I'm looking forward to it keenly.

-So you're not sad about it?

-No, I'm looking forward to it keenly

because I relate it to these very things that you dismiss.

I relate it to the story of the incarnation,

this great drama of the incarnation, which you have reduced

to a sort of comic film.

Now, you think that in doing that you have shed light.

I have to tell you that you haven't shed light.

You've made some rather bad jokes

and the only reason people come to see it

is because they still relate it

to this extraordinary story of the incarnation.

Which is, in fact, the beginning and the end

of everything that our civilisation stands for.

Our civilisation began with a man, the apostle Paul,

telling the pagan world about the incarnation.

That was the beginning of it.

We're not the only civilisation in the world.

-There's a lot of civilisations with different religions, right?

-Certainly.

The important thing is people should be open to various possibilities.

-But...

-And they should take a critical attitude.

But who ever said they shouldn't be open? You don't make people open

by producing the sort of buffoonery you produced.

We certainly don't make people open

by giving them the kind of garbage I was given at school.

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

I'm very sympathetic to you for having received this garbage,

some of it at the hands of our friend the bishop here.

I'm very sympathetic indeed and I think it's very sad

and tragic you should have been cut off

from something that's so wonderful and only given garbage.

But I would simply point out to you

that if you look, if you care about

what constitutes what we call western civilisation,

which is now probably coming to an end,

and you were to consider the role that's been played in that

by this thing that you treat as a piece of buffoonery,

you would have a certain humility in saying that you have been able,

through making it, to shed light upon something.

You keep making the assumption... Sorry, let me just say this.

You keep making the basic assumption that we are ridiculing Christ

and Christ's teaching and I say that we are not.

Do you imagine your scene, for instance the Sermon on the Mount,

the scene in your film of the Sermon on the Mount,

is not ridiculing one of the most sublime utterances

that any human being has ever spoken on this earth?

Of course it is.

It makes fun of the guy who's remembered it wrong and the people who miss the point.

-Well, I think...

-That's really unfair because a lot of people

looking in will think we have actually ridiculed Christ physically.

Christ is played by an actor, Kenneth Colley.

He speaks the words from the Sermon on the Mount.

It's treated respectfully. The camera pans away, we go to the back of the crowd

and someone shouts, "Speak up!" Because they can't hear.

LAUGHTER

Now, if that utterly undermines your faith in Christ,

then it can't be that strong.

Of course it doesn't. I started off saying this is such a tenth-rate film

that I don't believe it would disturb anybody's faith.

You started with an open mind, I realise that.

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

John, may I put to you a question?

Now, without in any way being pompous,

I have been Bishop of South London now

for over 20 years

and I'm appalled by the sadness, the unhappiness,

the tragedy of life. The drug scene,

the violence, the muggings and so on.

And many people now are standing back

with a measure of deep disturbance and some horror.

I was at the University of Cambridge only the Sunday before last

and I'm told how the undergraduates are now turning up to chapel

and seeking, seeing if Christianity

has got something to offer.

I think most of us, I'm sure all of you,

however much you may differ on this film,

we are deeply disturbed by what's going on in the world

and in this country.

Now, there is a desire to find truth.

To find some answer to our problems and the question I would put to you

is could you really put your hand on your heart

and say that film is going to help the younger generation

-in its pilgrimage for truth?

-Absolutely.

The message is... What is it, Michael?

Work it out for yourselves, you're all individuals. Don't do what people tell you to do.

-That's not...

-You find that a finalness of...?

-No, no.

-Starting point, starting point.

-Including the lampooning of Christ?

The lampooning of his death, which is the most disgraceful part?

Surely, Michael, it was a lampooning

of a form of death which happened to hundreds of people?

You are lampooning a scene which has played a fantastic part

in the lives of believers for generations.

A scene that has inspired the most amazing disinterestedness,

creativity, that set St Francis of Assisi wandering about the streets.

-Yes, true.

-That inspired St Augustine to write The City Of God...

This I accept, but I think the crucifixion...

All you've done is make a lot of people on the cross, singing a music hall song.

LAUGHTER

I mean, it's so disgusting when you think of it.

A lot of people go away very happy, laughing,

-their faith not touched one jot.

-I don't think it would touch their faith.

APPLAUSE

A lot of people on the first Good Friday went away from Calgary,

laughing their heads off and thinking the death of Jesus

-was a tremendous joke.

-That's very true.

APPLAUSE

As a matter of fact, all you've done...

The person you've followed in this film is Herod.

It was Herod who organised this absurd scene

and I'm only amazed that you didn't get some comic effects

out of the crown of thorns.

That's the only thing that puzzles me in the film.

If we wanted to make a joke of Jesus, he would've been on the cross.

He's in the film. He is not on the cross.

You make...

It's a gang of thieves, of common criminals who were,

-at that time, crucified in the hundreds day by day.

-That's...

I'm sorry. You think I'm wrong, but that's what I feel. It is not Christ...

-I think it's ludicrous because the people seeing this...

-This is what the film's about.

Malcolm can I just say... to an outsider, the Crucifixion is a much stronger event

if one realises that Christ went through something that everyone went through.

If you treat it like something only he went through,

which is the image you get,

I never realised everyone got crucified.

If he was crucified between... He was crucified between two thieves...

If the experience of those three people was the same,

because they went through the same physical experience,

then you are utterly misunderstanding what the Crucifixion means.

What the Passion means. Why it's had this enormous role in people's lives.

It wouldn't have had that role

if it was simply one of innumerable men dying on a cross.

It's because of what it signified, in terms of the incarnation,

and, of course, you leave that all out of account.

What you've done is you've made... You've succeeded in doing,

and for that reason, it will have no influence in the long run...

You have succeeded in reducing something which has inspired the greatest art

into something which is presented in terms of the lowest art.

You've said that we have to influence people.

We're just trying to make them laugh, make them happy.

-It helps them in the current situation the world is in.

-I'll have to call a halt.

I think you've made people happy and made them think and laugh.

-I think we've made them talk about it.

-You'll get your 30 pieces of silver, I'm quite sure.

I hasten to add that...

APPLAUSE

No, but you don't understand...

APPLAUSE DROWNS SPEECH

..You're missing a wonderful thing by seeing it in those terms

-and it's utterly tragic to me.

-Thank you very much. I hope that film won't shake anybody's faith.

Paul Jones has returned to his first love, the blues,

but without abandoning his acting career - as he's currently in a West End musical.

He's spending a lot of time behind a harmonica and a microphone in front of the Blues Band.

Here they are with Boom Boom, Out Go The Lights.

# No kiddin'

# I'm ready to fight

# I've been lookin' for my baby all night

# If I get her in my sight

# Boom boom! Out go the lights

# I thought I was treating my baby fair

# Now she's gettin' all in my hair

# If I get her in my sight

# Boom boom! Out go the lights

# No kiddin'

# I'm ready to go

# If I find her, boy, don't you know

# If I get her in my sight

# Boom boom! Out go the lights

# I've never been so mad before

# Till I found out she ain't mine no more

# If I get her in my sight

# Boom boom! Out go the lights. #

APPLAUSE

Boom Boom, Out Go The Lights from the Blues Band - vocals, Paul Jones.

The Blues Band are playing in London now. I recommend them warmly.

My final guest is a phenomenon of the publishing world.

Few households have never found space for one or more

of the 26 editions of the Guinness Book Of Records,

the largest-selling copyright book ever.

Please welcome Norris McWhirter.

APPLAUSE

Norris, you are the author, compiler, editor?

-What do you call yourself of the Guinness Book Of Records?

-Yes, I put it together.

Why do you think people buy it every year?

It's a great book, and I've bought it at least 23 of the 26 years,

but why do people go on buying it?

Every year it goes to number one on the book charts.

Because 22-23% of it gets out of date every year.

This obsolescence is so high that last year's edition is no good, so you've got to have this year's.

-Like American cars, it has built-in obsolescence.

-Yes, like American cars.

Do you ever get a bad year, like a bad Beaujolais, when no records are broken?

No, every year is a vintage year as regards breaking records.

Next year will be an Olympic year and it'll be even worse - or better, whichever way you look at it.

It's possible that one year, not an awful lot will happen.

No, everything happens. The astounding thing is when things you think are settled -

you can't break - THEY get broken.

They even found, last year, a piece of land further north

than the most northerly piece of land ever known.

You'd think that that was impossible, but these things happen.

-Under the ice, was this?

-Yes, it was under the ice.

North of a place called Kaffeklubben O - O is the Danish for "island".

And that is north of Greenland, closest to the North Pole.

-How far away from the North Pole?

-It's about 360 miles, so it's a long way.

-Quite a slog.

-Yes, a long slog.

There are some records like Bob Beamon's long-jump record,

which seems set for a good few years.

Even Bob Beamon with his 29 feet 2.5 inches which he did in Mexico City in 1968, that is under threat,

because there's an American called Larry Myricks,

and he's jumped 27 feet 11.75 inches at sea level.

At sea level, the resistance is much higher than at altitude.

When you're at altitude, a mile-and-a-half up in Mexico City,

the air is thinner. It's only 76% to be precise.

So, one would expect any jump at Beamon's level in Mexico City level to be 20-odd% better.

Yes. He missed out the 28s. He went straight from 27.5 right up.

Has this chap tried it up in Mexico City?

No, he hasn't. I hope he does. If he does, great people always say,

"Nobody now alive will ever see that record broken" - Bob Beamon's.

It was a remarkable record.

It was the equivalent to knocking 13 seconds off the mile.

So it's a tremendous improvement.

How do you classify records? Say, I was to run 101 yards and say,

"This is the world's fastest 101 yards," would you let it in?

Certainly not, no. That would just be fudging it.

Records have got to have some significance

and be internationally competitive and comparable.

There are some things so crazy that nobody else does them, so there's nothing to compare.

For instance, the first underwater violinist - nobody else does it.

-There is one?

-Yes, a chap called Mark Gottlieb in Oregon.

He's dead serious, he has waterproof rosin and he takes it really seriously.

How could you beat it? Staying under longer?

The Japanese have an underwater orchestra.

-Really?

-That's the way to beat it.

BOTH CHUCKLE

Are there any records which you wouldn't print?

Like if someone said, "I've driven from Piccadilly Circus to the centre of Oxford in 32 minutes" -

which I've done on several occasions!

-Would you not print that?

-Certainly not.

No, we don't print anything gratuitously dangerous

or records of place-to-place driving because innocent people would get killed.

We know some of the figures and they're horrific,

but we don't publish them and nor do anyone else.

There's a conspiracy of silence about those things.

-Has any faked record ever got past you?

-No, we nearly had one.

We used to be a great pub game and the book was invented to settle arguments in 84,000 pubs.

That's why it's called Guinness. What happened was,

they used to balance 12-sided three-penny bits edge-on-edge, and the record was 11.

One day, we got a claim for 13. That made us immediately suspicious.

People never break records by a bigger margin than you have to.

And I phoned this fellow up who was down in Eastbourne,

and I said that I wanted to know how he did this great feat.

Eventually he admitted how he did it.

He got hold of the coins, got a card table, glued it to a ceiling, put a carpet up there and a chair,

suspended them with tape and photographed the lot upside down.

LAUGHTER But luckily he admitted it.

How did the book begin? One often hears stories, but you and your brother Ross...

-Was it actually your idea?

-No, we were commissioned to do it.

We were already working on records for a breakfast food company.

Sir Hugh Beaver, the Chief Executive of the Guinness brewery was out shooting in Ireland,

and he either missed or got, or was shooting at, a golden plover.

He wanted to know if this was the fastest game bird in Europe.

Very expensive reference books, none told him the answer.

It occurred to him that this is the sort of thing people argue about.

Not golden plovers - the greatest weight a man's ever lifted

or the most children any woman's had - those things.

And there's no book which gives you the answer and he said,

"Right, we will produce such a book." That's how it was generated.

Did you anticipate such huge success?

No, because the first one we produced went to the chief buyer

of the largest wholesale chain in the country, as you know, he's an author.

And he looked at it and wrote down on a pad his order.

For the whole nation, six copies.

-Six!

-He now orders 120,000, so it's changed a little bit.

What would you have done if it hadn't taken off?

-If it hadn't?

-Say, if the idea hadn't worked.

We would've been working on other ideas

because we had a business, supplying facts and figures

to newspapers and yearbooks and advertisers.

-So you were in that business already?

-Yes.

-And this was the magic thing.

It was a call from Chris Chataway that summoned us to the brewery,

because he had just got his first job there.

He was a world record holder for the three miles, so it was rather appropriate that it was him.

-How long did he hold that record for?

-A very short time.

He was overtaken, it was 13 minutes 32.2, if I remember rightly.

He shared it with a fellow called Freddie Green and was overtaken rapidly

Vladimir Kuts ran faster but he didn't used to be timed at three miles as he was metrically-minded.

-Chataway, I recall, beat Kuts.

-He did. That was a famous 5,000 metres.

That was about a month after we went to the brewery, in October 1954.

I remember everyone was white at the knuckles and it was televised and it was a tremendous race.

If I can get on to you yourself very briefly, to end up with.

You lost Ross tragically, four years ago.

Obviously, it's made a great difference to your life,

but do you find you can function on your own? Or being an identical twin,

have you lost something more than a brother. Especially someone so closely involved with your work.

An identical twin is genetically the same person, and every day,

I miss him as his knowledge in certain fields was better than mine

and we worked so closely together.

Also, you had the opportunity of discussing things

and in that way, one had to be halved or doubled.

And one has to make double the effort to be the same person.

The book, despite the tragic loss of Ross,

has gone from strength to strength, and your team...

There's a wonderful team of people.

Very enthusiastic. They work very hard. People are happier when they work hard.

We're now in 24 languages and so it sells about 75,000 a week

-and it's hard keeping it going.

-I'm not surprised and you are in your own book as the largest...

-We had to put it in, because we overtook...

-Modest though you were.

-Well, we have to record records.

And Dr Spock, we overtook in November 1974.

And as Dr Spock disowns everything he ever said,

it's justice that he's been booted out of your book.

He's very interesting, I'd love to meet him.

He won a gold medal for rowing in the Olympics in 1924.

I only discovered that recently.

-Norris McWhirter, thank you very much indeed.

-Thank you.

APPLAUSE

This is the end of the show and the end of my long run as host - two weeks.

LAUGHTER

Next week, the Cambridge Footlights will be taking over the entire programme

and I'll be speaking at the Odiham and Greywell Cricket Club at their annual dinner for a derisory fee.

Thanks to John Cleese, Michael Palin, Malcolm Muggeridge,

the Bishop of Southwark, Paul Jones, the Blues Band and Norris McWhirter. Over and out.

APPLAUSE

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd

E-mail: [email protected]