Episode 7 Friday Night, Saturday Morning


Episode 7

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# Friday night, Saturday morning

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# Yesterday's gone, there's a weekend dawning

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# Friday night Saturday morning blast

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# Pack up your troubles, then

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# Monday's the day for them

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# Oh, it's time to relax again

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# Friday night Saturday morning blast. #

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APPLAUSE

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Good evening. Tonight, every-expense-spared guests include

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Paul Jones and the Blues Band,

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the author of the book most frequently stolen from public libraries,

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that's Norris McWhirter,

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and four gentlemen who'll be discussing a controversial film inspired by the New Testament.

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Only yesterday, in the Scotsman, a prominent news item headed "New Superstar Row"

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revealed that the film Jesus Christ Superstar

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has this week been banned from a cinema in the Western Isles as blasphemous.

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A curse placed on another remote Scottish cinema

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which dared to screen Superstar in 1976

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led to the recent closure of that particular house of entertainment.

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If Superstar still has this trouble nearly ten years after its creation,

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what hope does Monty Python's Life of Brian have today?

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Soon, the opinions of John Cleese, Michael Palin,

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Malcolm Muggeridge and Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark.

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Here's a moderately controversial clip from the film.

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LAUGHTER

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-Oh...!

-LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

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-Hello, Mother!

-Don't you "Hello, Mother" me.

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-What are all those people doing?

-Oh, well, I, er...

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Come on, what have you been up to, my lad?

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I think they must have popped by for something.

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"Popped by"?! Swarmed by, more like! There's a multitude out there!

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-They started following me yesterday.

-Well, they can stop following you right now.

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Now stop following my son. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

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ALL: The Messiah! The Messiah! Show us the Messiah!

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-The who?

-The Messiah!

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There's no Messiah in here. There's no Messiah. Now go away!

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Brian! Brian!

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Right, my lad, what have you been up to?

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-Come on, out with it.

-Well, they think I'm the Messiah, Mum.

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Show us the Messiah!

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Now you listen 'ere. He's not the Messiah,

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he's a very naughty boy. Now go away!

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-Who are you?

-I'm his mother, that's who.

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Behold his mother! Behold his mother!

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Hail to thee,

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mother of Brian!

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Blessed art thou! Hosanna!

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All praise to thee, now and always!

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Now, don't think you can get around me like that.

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He's not coming out, and that's my final word.

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LAUGHTER

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That extract featured Graham Chapman as Brian

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and Terry Jones, who also directed the picture,

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as Mandy, mother of Brian.

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LAUGHTER

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With us tonight, another one third of Monty Python,

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John Cleese and Michael Palin.

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CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

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Cracked.

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-BBC cutbacks.

-Yep.

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Michael, why the name Brian?

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Well, I don't know, we've always used Brian in Python

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to portray a certain sort of character,

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a fairly anonymous and - I apologise to anyone called Brian -

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slightly sort of...a touch dim.

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No, not exactly dim. That's not fair. Slow to catch on.

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There's a fighting chance of at least one Brian watching tonight,

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-so be careful.

-Well, I don't know. Have you seen the figures?

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Cheap, wasn't it?

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No, actually, John was in the sketch about a footballer being interviewed

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in one of the early Python shows,

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and it was all,

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"Brian, ball's in the back of the net, Brian."

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"I'm openin' a boutique, Brian."

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And it's one of the funny names, isn't it? It's like Trevor and Kevin.

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I mean, they're just funny.

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What inspired the film Life of Brian?

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I mean, how did that strange idea take root,

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and, indeed, in whose skull did it take root?

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Well, we're not exactly certain.

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It's always difficult to find the exact moment when it came up.

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But I know that when we were going around the world

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doing premieres for The Holy Grail

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and we had a lot of time to spare in airports and cafes,

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we got to thinking about a new film and what area we might go in.

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And we were still keen to do a historical film.

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It's more fun dressing up and all that.

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We'd done the bowler-hatted City gents on Python.

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And I think it was Eric who came up with this title out of the blue

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called Jesus Christ: Lust For Glory.

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LAUGHTER

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I must admit that when we started talking about it,

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we actually explored the idea of doing a comedy film about Jesus,

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with all the jokes about

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someone trying to book a table for 12 at the Last Supper.

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"Sorry, sir, Saturday night - I'll do you three fours."

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"Come in tomorrow." "No, it's got to be tonight." And all those jokes.

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But the more we read about Jesus and the background to his life,

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it was obvious that there was very little to ridicule in Jesus's life

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and therefore we were sort of onto a loser.

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The characters we like to portray in Python are failures, are dim,

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are idiotic, are incapable in one way or another.

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Jesus was a straight, direct man making very good sense.

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And so we decided that it would be just a rather shallow film

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just about Jesus, so we got Brian in.

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You must have known, though, even in those early days,

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you were heading for trouble and criticism and controversy,

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because you were well known and, to put it mildly,

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-the subject matter's quite well known.

-Yeah.

-Did that worry you?

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I feel that in Python we've always thrived on that.

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It's always been an uphill struggle.

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So what came first? I mean, was it the laughter idea or the message?

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I mean, which was the first of the two?

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It's the laughter. We go for the jokes first.

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The reason that it sounded like an interesting territory to go into, to explore...

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When you go in, you don't know what you'll write.

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We sit around for about three days discussing what to write

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then write something completely different.

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And the film actually starts

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when somebody comes in halfway through the second week

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and reads something out and we all laugh.

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That's the first point on the graph. You see?

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Then we wait another week and somebody else writes something funny,

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and we have two points on the graph.

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And when we've got six or seven, we write stuff to join it together.

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It's a pretty slow process, cos it's sort of democracy gone mad.

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It took a long time for Brian to really get off the ground.

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We wrote an awful lot which was then just thrown away

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because it was struggling too hard to be sort of controversial.

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Well, Mike, I don't know I agree with that,

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because I don't think that we were coming in with stuff about Christ.

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We started writing round the edges,

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the people who'd arrive five minutes after the miracle had been done...

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LAUGHTER

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..which is as bad as being 2,000 years late.

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It's almost as if you didn't see it,

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whether you're five minutes late or whatever.

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Actually, we did have the idea that he was the 13th disciple, didn't we?

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-A sort of slight hanger-on.

-Yes, that's right.

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He was going to write a gospel, but he was always late.

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-It was also called Brian of Nazareth at one point, wasn't it?

-Yeah. Yeah.

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You changed that title, yet that would have worked, wouldn't it?

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Well, I always thought that that title

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somehow asked for the comparison with Jesus of Nazareth,

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the Powell thing, too much. It looked as though we were going for the comparison.

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But you apparently used

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Lew Grade's sets from Jesus of Nazareth.

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Didn't you in fact use the same scenario?

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The ones he hadn't taken down!

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Yes, we used them for building our own sets in.

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There was temples there in Monastir, this place in Tunisia.

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It was luck really, because at one stage we were looking...

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I think there were five or six places we might have shot it -

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Italy, Spain, Jordan,

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Israel, Morocco, Tunisia,

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and I think we decided Tunisia eventually,

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partly because we thought

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there might be religious trouble in the Catholic countries

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and partly because they'd been making a lot of films

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in the last two or three years in Tunisia.

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When you said, "Get the rushes here in the morning,"

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you arrive and the rushes are there.

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There's practically an industry there of making films about Jesus,

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-cos Rossellini had made a film...

-Who?

-..then Lew Grade was there.

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Rossellini, an Italian director, made a film about Jesus.

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-Don't worry.

-I missed that one!

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He thought he was a footballer, didn't he?

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No, I thought it was a food!

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For FC Turin. No, Rossellini made this film.

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I thought it was rather good, actually!

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"Yeah, he was a bit slow. Second half he was very good!"

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LAUGHTER

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"Got the ball, and there it was in the back of the stand."

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If he's watching, I'm sorry, but I've never heard of the guy.

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-Well, he's made a film about Jesus.

-Has it come out?

-Yes, I think so.

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The extraordinary thing is, Tim - I don't know all the facts,

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because I was only told four days ago -

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but apparently there are now four "funny" films about the Bible

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-coming out in the next three months.

-As a result of Brian?

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Well, I don't know. It may just be coincidence.

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Mind you, we've been talking about it for three years, so maybe the idea...

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How did the whole thing get together?

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You had this great idea in an airport lounge or wherever,

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and still you have a fairly long way to go from Terminal 2

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to...screens all over the world.

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It was a very big airport!

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-It took us ages.

-It is that pragmatic thing...

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Because you had trouble with the cash and backers pulling out.

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Oh, terrible trouble, yes.

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In fact, if George Harrison hadn't known Eric Idle,

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the film wouldn't have been made.

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Because although the Americans, after the EMI thing fell through...

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LAUGHTER

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I didn't say anything!

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LAUGHTER

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-"Fell through"?!

-Fell through. Fell through. Failed to happen,

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as it were.

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We then went to America,

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and they were all prepared to give us a little bit of money,

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but not as much as we needed to make the film.

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We needed, I think, 2.5 million to make it for the American territories,

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and they wouldn't give us more than 1.75.

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So come the middle of the year, we realised we weren't going to make it.

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Out of the blue, John Goldstone, the producer, said,

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"Well, I've got one more meeting, with George Harrison,"

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and George Harrison, which I think is really

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one of the great, almost magnificent acts of the century,

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said he was quite happy to put up £1 million

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for no other reason, apparently, than that he wanted to see the movie. LAUGHTER

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It's true, yeah.

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Weren't you all in some danger of splitting up,

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or at least some internal conflict? Or did the film bring you together?

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Yes. I mean, I think it did.

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After Grail, there was about a year spent in the wilderness, as it were,

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no-one sure what they wanted to do, and people trying their own things -

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Fawlty Towers or Ripping Yarns or whatever.

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Also, there was a stage when we hated each other.

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LAUGHTER

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-CAMP:

-Well, I never hated you.

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LAUGHTER

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Whatever any of the others may say, I always liked you.

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What about your solo projects?

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Are there going to be any more Ripping Yarns, Fawlty Towers?

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There'll be no more Fawlty Towers.

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LAUGHTER

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APPLAUSE

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He sent me a wonderful telegram last week,

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when I had my 40th birthday, and it read,

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"We loved the first 40. Are you going to do any more?"

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LAUGHTER

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-They got it right.

-Well, are you?

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-Is there going to be a...?

-I don't think so, no.

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I feel we've done that, just as I felt about Python and the telly,

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that you reach a point and it's the law of diminishing returns. You COULD go on...

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And does that mean there won't be any more Pythons on the telly?

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-Highly unlikely at the moment.

-But not totally ruled out.

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Well, not totally. I don't think anything is absolutely,

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definitely ruled out.

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What I hate is the sausage machine,

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and you get into it the moment you sign on the dotted line -

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13 shows, that's eight months in the diary filming, editing, rehearsing.

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It's much nicer to take one two-hour or hour-and-a-half thing like a film

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and spend a lot of time,

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and then you can savour it and explore and talk -

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better than having to get everything written every day.

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See, John gets very depressed by work. He doesn't like work.

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I mean, what I feel

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about the Python shows is I don't know where we would start off.

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I think we almost did everything in those three series,

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and I just don't know how we'd begin.

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We're practically doing it tonight. We were saying, it's terribly funny -

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it struck us that here we are,

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and a bishop and Malcolm Muggeridge are going to come on.

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LAUGHTER

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-"In the studio tonight..."

-And it's not a sketch!

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LAUGHTER

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APPLAUSE

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Are you implying that possibly there might be

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a third - or fourth, rather, fourth - Python movie, a full-length film?

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-This is certainly on the cards?

-Yes...

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-In fact, we're meeting. November 19th?

-Monday week.

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Your place.

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To discuss this very thing.

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I think it's very likely that we'll do another film.

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But again, we want to see if there's

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an area nobody's gone into, because the one thing about this film...

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I mean, I really like it,

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and there's a lot of stuff we've done I don't like that much.

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I really like this and there are moments when I watch it and I think,

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"I haven't seen anything like this before on the screen."

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-LAUGHTER

-Is there anything that

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you think could offend YOU on screen?

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LAUGHTER I...

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I have one tiny quibble, and I think that...

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that Terry Jones and Graham Chapman would no doubt disagree with me,

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that I think that the crucifixion thing at the end is not about pain -

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-it's about death and they are very separate.

-So what's your beef?

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My beef is that there are one or two close-ups

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of one or two people registering pain.

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And I think that that confuses what the last thing's about

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because, I mean, one's not really making fun of the fact

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that someone has been flayed till his flesh hung down and then nailed up.

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The point of that last bit is it's about death.

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You know, it's about attitudes to death.

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And it's quite possible to be relatively cheery about death -

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quite possible. Not saying that it's easy.

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Oh, yes. Well, for the moment, gentlemen, thank you very much.

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I think we ought to see another clip from the movie.

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No, would you please...

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-LAUGHTER

-..stay where you are?

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We're going to see a second clip from the film,

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and, after that, we'll be joined by two gentlemen

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who don't normally review movies

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but who, this evening, went to see it on our behalf.

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Hey, is there another way down?

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Is there another path down to the river?

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Please, please, help me! I've got to...

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CLAMOURING

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Oh, my foot!

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Oh, bastard!

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He is here! The shoe!

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THEY SHOUT OVER EACH OTHER

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-Speak! Speak to us, master, speak to us!

-Go away!

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-ALL:

-A blessing! A blessing!

-How shall we go away, master?

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-Just go away and leave me alone!

-Give us a sign!

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He HAS given us a sign! He has brought us to this place!

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I didn't bring you here, you just followed me!

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Oh, it's still a good sign by any standard.

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Master, your people have walked many miles to be with you,

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they are weary and have not eaten!

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It's not my fault they haven't eaten!

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There is no food in this high mountain!

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Well, what about the juniper bushes over there?

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-ALL:

-Ah! A miracle! A miracle!

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He has made the bush fruitful by his words!

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They've brought forth juniper berries.

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Of course they've brought forth juniper berries,

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they're juniper bushes! What do you expect?!

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-Show us another miracle!

-Do not tempt him, shallow ones!

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Is not the miracle of the juniper bushes enough?

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-I say, those are my juniper bushes!

-They are a gift from God!

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They're all I've bloody got to eat!

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-Lord! I am affected by a bald patch.

-I am healed!

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The master has healed me!

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-I didn't touch him!

-I was blind and now I can see!

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Aaargh!

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An... And our guests...

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APPLAUSE

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And our guests are Malcolm Muggeridge

0:18:340:18:36

and Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark.

0:18:360:18:38

I'd like to ask you, Bishop, first, what was your view of the film?

0:18:380:18:42

First of all, I was very glad to think that you simply

0:18:420:18:47

can't get rid of Jesus in Europe today.

0:18:470:18:51

Ceausescu of Romania, who I think thought like most communists

0:18:510:18:54

that they're going to get rid of religion very quickly,

0:18:540:18:58

found that as he said,

0:18:580:18:59

it's going to hang around with us for quite a long time.

0:18:590:19:04

And, certainly, when you think about the greatest attractions

0:19:040:19:08

on the stage, whether it's films and, I mean, acting,

0:19:080:19:12

ever since Jesus Christ Superstar, that's what's drawn the crowds.

0:19:120:19:17

I mean, Jesus is a most disturbing influence.

0:19:170:19:19

You simply can't get away from him.

0:19:190:19:22

You may worship him, respect him, commit your life to him

0:19:220:19:26

or just ridicule him and lampoon him, but you simply can't get rid of him

0:19:260:19:30

and this is what I think is a very, very interesting fact.

0:19:300:19:34

Even in China, in the changeover now, they tried to...

0:19:340:19:38

they thought Chairman Mao's thoughts had replaced the thoughts of Jesus,

0:19:380:19:43

but poor old Mao and the gang of four now really are on the dog heap

0:19:430:19:48

and Jesus is being allowed back. So that, first of all,

0:19:480:19:52

is something which I find extremely interesting. Now, the...

0:19:520:19:56

The...the second thing I...

0:19:560:19:59

Well, here's a question I would ask, er...

0:19:590:20:02

what...are you really trying to say in this film?

0:20:020:20:08

I believe you were on this a wee bit earlier, but unfortunately,

0:20:080:20:11

we only got the picture outside and not the voice, which was...

0:20:110:20:14

LAUGHTER ..something that husbands might want of their wives, but...

0:20:140:20:19

LAUGHTER

0:20:190:20:20

So we didn't quite hear your defence of it, but what I...

0:20:200:20:23

What are you really trying to say? I wasn't in the least bit horrified.

0:20:230:20:27

People said, "Bishop, when you go there, you will be absolutely horrified." I wasn't at all.

0:20:270:20:32

After all, I wasn't vicar of the University Church for nothing.

0:20:320:20:35

I mean, I'm familiar with undergraduate humour.

0:20:350:20:38

LAUGHTER

0:20:380:20:39

APPLAUSE

0:20:390:20:41

And I'm also a governor of a mentally deficient school.

0:20:450:20:48

LAUGHTER

0:20:480:20:50

And once I was a prep school master and I felt frightfully at home,

0:20:500:20:53

as though I was just back on old familiar ground this evening.

0:20:530:20:57

But I really wondered, I mean, what you were trying to say.

0:20:570:21:01

I do hope you don't think I'm being unkind,

0:21:010:21:04

because I know some of you and I'm very fond of you

0:21:040:21:07

and have respect for you, but I say this,

0:21:070:21:11

quite frankly, I simply don't think it was worthy of you.

0:21:110:21:14

It was the sort of thing, as I say, that, at Cambridge,

0:21:140:21:17

the Footlights did on a damp Tuesday afternoon.

0:21:170:21:20

Or the lower fourth when I was a schoolmaster.

0:21:200:21:23

LAUGHTER

0:21:230:21:24

-Did you in fact...?

-I just don't know what you were saying.

0:21:240:21:27

The third thing, unless I get rather more serious,

0:21:270:21:30

I mean...

0:21:300:21:32

why lampoon death? I think this is the thing that

0:21:320:21:36

really, er, you know, sort of worried me.

0:21:360:21:41

I don't think well to make a farce about Auschwitz.

0:21:410:21:46

Or of death. I mean, whatever we think about Jesus,

0:21:460:21:50

we may think he was the son of God,

0:21:500:21:52

we may think he was a mistaken fanatic.

0:21:520:21:54

But it was a pretty shattering thing what happened, the Crucifixion.

0:21:540:22:00

And, do you know, as I, as I looked at that

0:22:000:22:05

and I thought of now,

0:22:050:22:07

the way people react to the cross and, after all,

0:22:070:22:11

I'm not ashamed to wear the cross here, which is the sign of a bishop.

0:22:110:22:16

Er, when I look at that figure...

0:22:160:22:19

I mean, I know you're going to say Brian isn't Jesus,

0:22:190:22:22

but that's just rubbish. It was the, er...

0:22:220:22:25

The whole thing is quite clearly...

0:22:250:22:27

If no Jesus had lived, that film wouldn't have been produced.

0:22:270:22:30

-But did you feel the film actually ridiculed Jesus?

-Yes, I did.

0:22:300:22:33

Even though it wasn't about him?

0:22:330:22:35

Well, I'm afraid I can't take that it wasn't about him.

0:22:350:22:38

I mean, I put that to you as a matter of honesty.

0:22:380:22:41

If Jesus of Nazareth had never existed,

0:22:410:22:43

there would never been a Jesus and this film of Brian

0:22:430:22:46

would never have been produced, I'm sure that is so.

0:22:460:22:48

-Could I bring Mal...?

-If I... LAUGHTER

0:22:480:22:51

If I might just say, and then do come and cross-examine me then,

0:22:510:22:56

but my mind is still working on that last scene, sort of the reaction.

0:22:560:23:00

I mean, there, it seemed,

0:23:000:23:02

sort of a tremendous joke and people were laughing.

0:23:020:23:05

And then you think of the reaction of a person like Mother Teresa

0:23:050:23:09

to that scene, what it meant for her.

0:23:090:23:14

Now, she's a saint, I am not.

0:23:140:23:16

But every day of the week, I either say mass or I'm present at mass,

0:23:160:23:20

as I was this morning, in the early hours, and I broke the bread,

0:23:200:23:25

"This is my body," I took the cup, "This is my blood,"

0:23:250:23:30

and I didn't roar around with laughter at the altar in my chapel this morning.

0:23:300:23:36

I just fell down, genuflected and worshipped,

0:23:360:23:39

and said, "My Lord and my God."

0:23:390:23:42

Now, er...

0:23:420:23:44

I don't think, really... You come and get at me now.

0:23:440:23:47

-Well, I...

-I'm not criticising any of you personally.

0:23:470:23:50

I hasten to say I had nothing to do with the film whatsoever.

0:23:500:23:53

LAUGHTER

0:23:530:23:54

But before I ask John and Michael to perhaps answer those points, could I bring in Malcolm

0:23:540:23:59

-and ask your review, if review is the right word?

-Certainly, yes.

0:23:590:24:04

Remember that I was engaged for four years in the appalling task

0:24:040:24:09

of trying to make English people laugh as editor of Punch!

0:24:090:24:13

It's an almost impossible thing to do.

0:24:130:24:15

-LAUGHTER

-But I couldn't help feeling

0:24:150:24:18

enormous envy of the ease with which

0:24:180:24:21

this particular film aroused laughter,

0:24:210:24:25

you simply had to use a four-letter word

0:24:250:24:27

or display a man's private parts in the window

0:24:270:24:31

and the whole place fell on the ground with laughter.

0:24:310:24:34

LAUGHTER

0:24:340:24:35

So that I, you know, professionally felt rather put out by that.

0:24:350:24:42

Also, of course, I agree entirely with the bishop

0:24:420:24:45

that it is quite humbug to say

0:24:450:24:47

that this is not, um, a ridiculing

0:24:470:24:51

of the founder of the Christian religion and of the Incarnation,

0:24:510:24:56

in an extremely cheap and tenth-rate way.

0:24:560:25:00

Remember that that story of the Incarnation

0:25:000:25:04

was what our whole civilisation began with.

0:25:040:25:08

Remember that it has inspired every great artist,

0:25:080:25:12

every great writer, every great composer, every great builder,

0:25:120:25:16

every great architect, that is to celebrate that marvellous thing.

0:25:160:25:21

Germany, the Inquisition and so forth, it sort of...

0:25:210:25:25

-Yes, the Inquisition...

-LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:25:250:25:29

But, er, nothing can alter the fact that,

0:25:290:25:32

if you were to make a list of all the greatest works of art,

0:25:320:25:37

in all fields, and all the greatest contributors to those works of art,

0:25:370:25:41

you would find that this scene of the Incarnation,

0:25:410:25:45

this story of the Incarnation, has played the largest part.

0:25:450:25:49

Now, in our 20th century, the...

0:25:490:25:54

this film produces a sort of graffiti version of it.

0:25:540:25:58

And I don't think, in the eyes of posterity,

0:25:580:26:01

it will have a very distinguished place.

0:26:010:26:05

The bishop mentioned Mother Teresa and I was thinking of her too,

0:26:050:26:10

because, to her, you see, and it's something that

0:26:100:26:12

the makers of this programme maybe didn't even think of,

0:26:120:26:16

but the person of Jesus Christ,

0:26:160:26:20

not as a historical figure,

0:26:200:26:24

not as someone in the past, but someone living in the world now,

0:26:240:26:28

has been the essence of her existence.

0:26:280:26:30

I once asked her what was the difference

0:26:300:26:34

between what she did and what social workers do.

0:26:340:26:37

And she said, "Well, the point is that social workers

0:26:370:26:41

"are very estimable people, but they do something.

0:26:410:26:45

"They serve their fellows for an idea,

0:26:450:26:48

"I served my fellows for a person. And if that person wasn't there,

0:26:480:26:54

"or if that person was in some way discredited, then my work is over."

0:26:540:27:01

And there are many people in the world,

0:27:010:27:03

despite the fact that the media would suggest the contrary,

0:27:030:27:08

to whom still this living presence of Jesus Christ in the world

0:27:080:27:13

is the most essential part of their existence.

0:27:130:27:16

And you produce it in a film as a derisory and absurd figure

0:27:160:27:22

and, of course, to someone who has that feeling, as Mother Teresa has,

0:27:220:27:26

or someone like Catherine Bramwell-Booth has,

0:27:260:27:28

they are deeply hurt and insulted. That doesn't in itself matter.

0:27:280:27:33

I'd like to put another point to you that occurred to me whilst watching it.

0:27:330:27:37

Malcolm, sorry to interrupt, but is it possible for John to answer one or two of those points...

0:27:370:27:41

-Certainly.

-..otherwise we'll have nine points unanswered?

-Yes, it's building up the list of it.

0:27:410:27:46

Yes... But seriously, the problem we have got

0:27:460:27:49

is that you think that we're ridiculing Jesus

0:27:490:27:52

and we say, um, sort of sincerely and truthfully,

0:27:520:27:56

that that is certainly not what we intended to do

0:27:560:27:59

and I believe that we're not, and I can best answer that, I think, by

0:27:590:28:04

answering the question, which is that, um,

0:28:040:28:09

"What were we trying to do?" And I think it comes out,

0:28:090:28:12

spelled out perhaps rather too plainly,

0:28:120:28:15

rather too banally at one point, when he says,

0:28:150:28:18

"Make up your own mind, don't let other people tell you,"

0:28:180:28:22

and we would absolutely deny, at least I would,

0:28:220:28:25

that there was any attempt to say, "You should not believe in Christ."

0:28:250:28:28

What we're saying is, take a critical view.

0:28:280:28:31

Find out about it, don't just believe because somebody tells you to.

0:28:310:28:34

-Someone in a pulpit says something, question it, work it out...

-You're seriously suggesting that,

0:28:340:28:39

-if someone saw that film, say a young kid...

-Mm-hm.

0:28:390:28:43

-..who knew nothing about the Gospels or about history...

-Mm-hm.

0:28:430:28:47

..that the figure of Christ that would emerge from it,

0:28:470:28:50

this story of the Incarnation,

0:28:500:28:53

would be a noble one, um, would be...?

0:28:530:28:57

-He would have to sort it out for himself.

-You feel...?

-He would have to work out...

0:28:570:29:02

I mean, does one accept every word in the Bible? The Sermon on the Mount?

0:29:020:29:06

Did they get it all right when Mark wrote it down 30 years later?

0:29:060:29:09

I mean, was...? LAUGHTER

0:29:090:29:11

But is the film likely to be seen by anybody who doesn't know an awful lot about Jesus Christ?

0:29:110:29:16

Most certain it is today. If you have it for children of 14 today,

0:29:160:29:21

you will find that the many, many children of 14 today,

0:29:210:29:24

thanks to the secular nature of the education they're receiving,

0:29:240:29:27

know nothing about it at all and they would see this figure...

0:29:270:29:31

-I think...

-..in the light in which he appears in this film, you see.

0:29:310:29:35

It's no good cheating yourselves, you can't have it both ways.

0:29:350:29:38

You produce this particular film, which arouses bursts of laughter,

0:29:380:29:45

as I said earlier, rather easily procured,

0:29:450:29:48

but don't imagine that someone seeing that is going to go away

0:29:480:29:53

with a concept of the founder of the Christian religion,

0:29:530:29:56

and all that that meant to mankind, in any way corresponding

0:29:560:30:03

to what history or the Gospels or anything else has presented.

0:30:030:30:06

It's not supposed to be about him, so people shouldn't

0:30:060:30:08

-see it to learn about him.

-It's no good saying that...

-I'm not being dishonest!

0:30:080:30:13

-You're being utterly dishonest.

-Can I just say? Yeah, I mean,

0:30:130:30:16

I don't know where this will get us, but I feel my approach to the film,

0:30:160:30:21

I was confused, I feel I'm still asking questions, seeking solutions,

0:30:210:30:25

I am very confused and perturbed by a religion,

0:30:250:30:29

an established religion in this country,

0:30:290:30:31

where people can go into church on a Sunday morning,

0:30:310:30:34

and the same people can sing hymns and say prayers,

0:30:340:30:36

and, at the same time, these people can stand by

0:30:360:30:40

while their money is spent making bombs, making guns,

0:30:400:30:44

building up appalling weapons of destruction,

0:30:440:30:47

can sit by, sing hymns, say their prayers,

0:30:470:30:50

and agree with a policy in which hospitals have to go without money.

0:30:500:30:54

I'd like to know where you get your evidence. You've just given chapter and verse.

0:30:540:30:58

It so happens, immediately before coming here, I was asked by a crowd of church people

0:30:580:31:03

if I would stand up for the... sorry, for the...for the health...

0:31:030:31:07

of St Olive's Hospital, which the Government is trying to close.

0:31:070:31:12

The Church is extremely active in these, er, in these fields

0:31:120:31:18

and I would urge you not to make these careless generalisations which are not dependent on evidence.

0:31:180:31:23

-Now...

-I make them in all humility, I'm seeking answers and solutions,

0:31:230:31:27

I'm not saying this is absolutely the way it is, but I have observed.

0:31:270:31:31

Well, what you were saying if I may say so, was sheer rubbish!

0:31:310:31:35

SOME GASPS FROM THE AUDIENCE

0:31:350:31:36

You made a ridiculous generalisation, which is unworthy of an educated man.

0:31:360:31:40

Now, having said this, back to what you say,

0:31:400:31:44

somebody aged 14 coming and seeing this thing of Jesus,

0:31:440:31:49

what you are seeing is not one of the greatest teachers in the world,

0:31:490:31:53

I mean, granted, lots of people, the majority of people wouldn't

0:31:530:31:57

accept him as the son of God, as I do, but surely most of us

0:31:570:32:01

would see him as one of the greatest teachers of the world.

0:32:010:32:04

Now, you wouldn't guy Socrates or make him appear as a clown.

0:32:040:32:09

-What I think this film...

-Maybe there are funny things about him.

-What?

0:32:090:32:13

Maybe there are funny things about Socrates, why not make jokes?

0:32:130:32:17

Well, the aspects... LAUGHTER

0:32:170:32:19

-Not Socrates.

-No, no.

-APPLAUSE

0:32:190:32:21

-That's not my point, I don't know enough about Socrates...

-Socrates also was murdered.

0:32:210:32:26

He was made to drink poison.

0:32:260:32:29

You wouldn't guy him at that point or make him appear as a clown.

0:32:290:32:34

What I say, and I'm afraid you won't alter my conviction, John, over this,

0:32:340:32:39

is that, what is to a Christian the most sacred moment

0:32:390:32:42

of the whole Jesus experience, namely his death,

0:32:420:32:46

that is the most sacred moment,

0:32:460:32:48

that he was guyed and made to look as a clown.

0:32:480:32:51

May I make another point here, which is rather interesting?

0:32:510:32:55

-That if you had made that film about...

-LAUGHTER

0:32:550:32:58

..if you made that film about Muhammad, you see,

0:32:580:33:01

there would've been an absolute hullabaloo in this country,

0:33:010:33:05

because all the sort of, um, you know, the racial,

0:33:050:33:10

anti-racialist people would've risen up in their might,

0:33:100:33:13

the same people who would approve of this, and would've said this is quite disgraceful

0:33:130:33:18

and behind people's minds would be the thought

0:33:180:33:20

maybe they might lose a bit of oil, you know, by doing it. But the difference...

0:33:200:33:24

You're right! 400 years ago, we would have been burnt for this film.

0:33:240:33:28

Now, I'm suggesting that we've made an advance.

0:33:280:33:31

-LAUGHTER.

-And I'm suggesting...

0:33:310:33:33

APPLAUSE

0:33:330:33:34

And I'm suggesting that, compared with other presentations

0:33:340:33:40

of this great event, the Incarnation,

0:33:400:33:44

you have not made an advance and that anybody in the future

0:33:440:33:49

who might dredge up this miserable little film,

0:33:490:33:51

and it's quite possible they might as a piece of social history,

0:33:510:33:55

they would certainly not wish to relate it to the...

0:33:550:34:00

say, Chartres Cathedral, which is built...

0:34:000:34:04

-SOME LAUGHTER

-..to the glory of Christ.

0:34:040:34:07

Not a funny building. LAUGHTER

0:34:070:34:10

But they might want to compare it with Fawlty Towers!

0:34:100:34:13

Yes, not even intended to be a funny building.

0:34:130:34:15

Well, it has the gargoyles on it, you know.

0:34:150:34:17

-Michael?

-I think that, and I've seen this in the reviews of the film,

0:34:170:34:21

they concentrate always on the religious angle.

0:34:210:34:24

Even before they've seen it, they've decided it's a film about religion.

0:34:240:34:28

I don't think it is entirely. I think what we've chosen to do is

0:34:280:34:31

what we've always done in Python, for three series and three films -

0:34:310:34:35

taken a certain group of people, generally sort of England in the present day,

0:34:350:34:39

and put them in a historical context and that's what we did with this.

0:34:390:34:43

It isn't entirely about religion, it's about the people who live in,

0:34:430:34:46

anyone who lives and makes up our society today.

0:34:460:34:50

It's also about closed systems of thought,

0:34:500:34:52

whether political, theological, religious or whatever.

0:34:520:34:55

Systems by which whatever evidence is given to the person,

0:34:550:34:58

he merely adapts it, fits it into his ideology.

0:34:580:35:01

You show the same event to a Marxist and a Catholic, for example,

0:35:010:35:05

they both have explanations of it.

0:35:050:35:07

When it's to be pompous Poppers on about falsifiability of theories.

0:35:070:35:12

I mean, once you've actually got an idea that is whirring round so fast

0:35:120:35:17

that no other light or contrary evidence can come in, I think it's very dangerous.

0:35:170:35:21

Not dangerous to someone like Malcolm, because he is very nice,

0:35:210:35:24

but he is the sort of guy that this film is actually having a go at,

0:35:240:35:28

because I don't think any evidence will come now to make him rethink,

0:35:280:35:33

"Am I right? Am I making a mistake?"

0:35:330:35:36

Well, um, you can leave that out.

0:35:360:35:40

I think I can say with utter sincerity

0:35:400:35:44

that there is nothing in this particular film

0:35:440:35:47

that would lead me to want to change conclusions

0:35:470:35:52

that I've reached after living for 76 years in this world.

0:35:520:35:55

Is there anything? That's the point I'm making.

0:35:550:35:59

Well, in this film, there is nothing that could possibly,

0:35:590:36:01

-because the film itself bore so little to...

-The point I was making

0:36:010:36:05

was not the film, forget the film, you'd said it's rubbish.

0:36:050:36:08

-Will anything that can happen to you change your mind?

-Oh, certainly!

0:36:080:36:12

But of course, every single person who is alive, and spiritually alive,

0:36:120:36:16

is constantly reviewing his faith. I do not believe for a moment

0:36:160:36:22

that there is a definitive faith and you say, "There it is."

0:36:220:36:25

But there's nothing in this little squalid number that could

0:36:250:36:29

-possibly affect anybody...

-SOME GASPS

0:36:290:36:32

-..and, in that sense, I give you this point.

-Might it not...?

0:36:320:36:35

There's nothing in this film that could possibly destroy anybody's genuine faith,

0:36:350:36:40

that I grant you absolutely not.

0:36:400:36:42

Because it's much too tenth rate for that.

0:36:420:36:45

-LAUGHTER

-But the, the...

0:36:450:36:48

-SOME APPLAUSE

-But, um...

0:36:480:36:50

But what I still contend is that someone who is young,

0:36:500:36:55

14 years old, seeing that without any particular background

0:36:550:37:01

might really imagine that that buffoonery

0:37:010:37:05

-is an expression...

-Yes.

-..of this great episode.

0:37:050:37:08

Well, you see, I was also... You talked about the presentation of Christianity.

0:37:080:37:12

I went to an English preparatory school,

0:37:120:37:15

an English public school, Clifton College, the sports academy.

0:37:150:37:19

-I sympathise with you.

-LAUGHTER

0:37:190:37:21

I was given eight or ten years,

0:37:210:37:23

ten years of a form of Christianity which I grew to despise and dislike.

0:37:230:37:29

Largely, it insulted my intelligence.

0:37:290:37:32

The sermons that were given at the age of 11 and 12,

0:37:320:37:35

I felt insulted my intelligence.

0:37:350:37:38

When I got into writing this film, we all had exactly the same reaction.

0:37:380:37:42

We started to discover a lot of stuff about Christianity

0:37:420:37:45

and I started to get angry, because I started to think,

0:37:450:37:48

"Why was I given this rubbish, this tenth-rate series of platitudes,

0:37:480:37:53

"when there were interesting things to have discussed?

0:37:530:37:57

"There were factual things."

0:37:570:37:58

-You feel...?

-Nobody told me they don't know what language the Gospels were written in,

0:37:580:38:03

they don't know who wrote them and they're not sure what cities they were written in!

0:38:030:38:07

Then you must have read very superficially at your school.

0:38:070:38:10

It's bad luck of you, but I used to go to Clifton College to preach very often when you were there.

0:38:100:38:15

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:38:150:38:17

I know, I know the headmaster, I know the staff.

0:38:210:38:26

All I can say is, you must've been as idle a boy as...

0:38:260:38:31

LAUGHTER

0:38:310:38:33

..as splendid an actor as you are, because...

0:38:330:38:36

-I wasn't, I was always open.

-..because, you really, to take this... Seriously!

0:38:360:38:41

-I mean, you had some absolutely first-class teachers.

-Those services were a joke!

0:38:410:38:46

They were a joke!

0:38:460:38:48

-Only cos you made them so.

-No! I was...

-How do you know?

0:38:480:38:52

-I know people from your own period..

-I remember the sermons!

-..who are now priests in my own diocese.

0:38:520:38:57

-I remember the sermons, I remember...

-Tell me what I preached on?

0:38:570:39:01

No idea! LAUGHTER

0:39:010:39:02

I only remember the bad ones.

0:39:020:39:05

I remember a gentleman coming and telling us

0:39:050:39:07

how very difficult it had proved to get the Bible into Tibet.

0:39:070:39:10

They'd had seven occasions. The first time, there were landslides.

0:39:100:39:14

The second time, there were rains and the pages got stuck together.

0:39:140:39:17

LAUGHTER The third time... This is true!

0:39:170:39:19

The third time, the mules fell off the mountain. The fourth time, there were thunderbolts.

0:39:190:39:24

And the seventh time, he said, "God helped us and we got the Bibles into Tibet."

0:39:240:39:28

The obvious conclusion was that he was trying like hell to stop them!

0:39:280:39:32

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:39:320:39:35

John, I'm sorry, but you really are lampooning this,

0:39:380:39:41

because with O-levels and A-levels going on the whole time,

0:39:410:39:44

people have taken the Scriptures, they have had to study Greek,

0:39:440:39:47

perhaps Hebrew and have had to make a serious study of the Scriptures.

0:39:470:39:51

You chose not to do that.

0:39:510:39:53

-We made a superficial study...

-I'm sure you'd better things to do!

-We only had four years to write it!

0:39:530:39:58

We didn't want to get to specialist, because if we got too...

0:39:580:40:02

-I'm sorry. I don't think there's going to be much...

-Can I just ask?

0:40:020:40:06

I think, in theory, as a moderator, I'm supposed to be neutral.

0:40:060:40:09

Church of Scotland or Church of England?

0:40:090:40:11

AUDIENCE LAUGHS

0:40:110:40:14

-Moderator in the church.

-I'm in the middle.

0:40:140:40:15

I mean, I felt when I saw the film, and I saw it in New York

0:40:150:40:20

with a very appreciative audience, did you not feel that the people

0:40:200:40:24

being lampooned were in fact the followers rather than Jesus himself?

0:40:240:40:28

-I felt that very strongly.

-No, no, no.

0:40:280:40:31

I don't think so. It was... I really felt...

0:40:310:40:35

I mean, at the crucifixion above all else, which I felt sad about.

0:40:350:40:39

I mean, I'm quite sure, as all of us will one day

0:40:390:40:42

and this is not trying to attack your vulnerabilities,

0:40:420:40:46

but life is very short.

0:40:460:40:48

All of us go on our deathbeds in a comparatively short time

0:40:480:40:51

and when we are,

0:40:510:40:55

and that will be no laughing matter,

0:40:550:40:58

it is very much that Christ I would like to be held up in front of me

0:40:580:41:03

than the Christ I saw this afternoon.

0:41:030:41:05

-It did bring home to me...

-That's just...

-Sorry.

0:41:050:41:07

I was going to say very quickly that the film reminded me

0:41:070:41:10

of something I knew but tend to forget,

0:41:100:41:13

that it wasn't only Jesus that was crucified.

0:41:130:41:15

An awful lot of people were crucified in horrific circumstances

0:41:150:41:18

every day under Roman rule.

0:41:180:41:20

-Yes, that's very true.

-That fact came home in the film.

0:41:200:41:23

You realise that Jesus didn't have

0:41:230:41:26

a sort of total copyright on crucifixion?

0:41:260:41:29

Yeah, but Jesus was crucified, wasn't he, for his obedience

0:41:290:41:33

to the will of God.

0:41:330:41:35

-You can't say..

-He was crucified surely for blasphemy?

0:41:350:41:39

Well, they accused him of blasphemy

0:41:390:41:42

because he was obedient to the word of God and of his kingdom.

0:41:420:41:46

You can't say that came over today

0:41:460:41:49

with any of the people being crucified.

0:41:490:41:53

-But that wasn't...

-The whole way that it was done, they were not dying for a noble idea.

0:41:530:41:58

Well, neither were the...

0:41:580:42:01

Can I just make the point I was trying to make earlier on

0:42:010:42:03

about the film not being seen entirely in religious terms?

0:42:030:42:07

As Tim has said, people were crucified then as common criminals.

0:42:070:42:11

It was just a form then of capital punishment employed by the Romans

0:42:110:42:15

who were regarded as highly civilised.

0:42:150:42:17

But it was capital punishment

0:42:170:42:18

and in the film, we examine attitudes to capital punishment.

0:42:180:42:21

In this country, the majority of people, we are often told, are in favour of capital punishment.

0:42:210:42:26

It seems we haven't come that far in all that time.

0:42:260:42:29

Where do you think, in all these centuries of Christendom,

0:42:290:42:32

that the greatest minds, the most creative minds,

0:42:320:42:35

the greatest artists were believers in this thing

0:42:350:42:38

that you airily dismiss and say that you,

0:42:380:42:41

making this little film,

0:42:410:42:44

have managed to see deeply into it?

0:42:440:42:47

-I don't...

-You can't say... What about Bertrand Russell?

0:42:470:42:50

You dismiss them, of course. You don't care.

0:42:500:42:54

AUDIENCE LAUGHS

0:42:540:42:55

I said the centuries of Christendom. I didn't say in our time.

0:42:550:42:59

I said if you were to make a list of all the people

0:42:590:43:02

-who have contributed most...

-Most of them would have been Muslims

0:43:020:43:05

if they'd been living in Arab countries, or Buddhists...

0:43:050:43:07

What's that got to do with it?

0:43:070:43:10

LAUGHTER

0:43:100:43:11

These people were inspired by this event,

0:43:110:43:14

which you have celebrated in this film

0:43:140:43:18

by a lot of people on crosses, singing a sort of...

0:43:180:43:21

As if it was rather an inferior musical.

0:43:210:43:25

Death perhaps doesn't matter that much.

0:43:250:43:27

Which is what you're saying the whole time.

0:43:270:43:30

-You're looking forward to it?

-I'm looking forward to it keenly.

0:43:300:43:33

-So you're not sad about it?

-No, I'm looking forward to it keenly

0:43:330:43:37

because I relate it to these very things that you dismiss.

0:43:370:43:40

I relate it to the story of the incarnation,

0:43:400:43:43

this great drama of the incarnation, which you have reduced

0:43:430:43:46

to a sort of comic film.

0:43:460:43:49

Now, you think that in doing that you have shed light.

0:43:490:43:52

I have to tell you that you haven't shed light.

0:43:520:43:55

You've made some rather bad jokes

0:43:550:43:57

and the only reason people come to see it

0:43:570:44:00

is because they still relate it

0:44:000:44:02

to this extraordinary story of the incarnation.

0:44:020:44:06

Which is, in fact, the beginning and the end

0:44:060:44:09

of everything that our civilisation stands for.

0:44:090:44:12

Our civilisation began with a man, the apostle Paul,

0:44:120:44:15

telling the pagan world about the incarnation.

0:44:150:44:18

That was the beginning of it.

0:44:180:44:20

We're not the only civilisation in the world.

0:44:200:44:22

-There's a lot of civilisations with different religions, right?

-Certainly.

0:44:220:44:26

The important thing is people should be open to various possibilities.

0:44:260:44:30

-But...

-And they should take a critical attitude.

0:44:300:44:32

But who ever said they shouldn't be open? You don't make people open

0:44:320:44:36

by producing the sort of buffoonery you produced.

0:44:360:44:38

We certainly don't make people open

0:44:380:44:40

by giving them the kind of garbage I was given at school.

0:44:400:44:43

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:44:430:44:46

I'm very sympathetic to you for having received this garbage,

0:44:460:44:50

some of it at the hands of our friend the bishop here.

0:44:500:44:53

I'm very sympathetic indeed and I think it's very sad

0:44:530:44:56

and tragic you should have been cut off

0:44:560:44:59

from something that's so wonderful and only given garbage.

0:44:590:45:02

But I would simply point out to you

0:45:020:45:04

that if you look, if you care about

0:45:040:45:07

what constitutes what we call western civilisation,

0:45:070:45:10

which is now probably coming to an end,

0:45:100:45:13

and you were to consider the role that's been played in that

0:45:130:45:17

by this thing that you treat as a piece of buffoonery,

0:45:170:45:21

you would have a certain humility in saying that you have been able,

0:45:210:45:26

through making it, to shed light upon something.

0:45:260:45:30

You keep making the assumption... Sorry, let me just say this.

0:45:300:45:33

You keep making the basic assumption that we are ridiculing Christ

0:45:330:45:37

and Christ's teaching and I say that we are not.

0:45:370:45:40

Do you imagine your scene, for instance the Sermon on the Mount,

0:45:400:45:44

the scene in your film of the Sermon on the Mount,

0:45:440:45:48

is not ridiculing one of the most sublime utterances

0:45:480:45:50

that any human being has ever spoken on this earth?

0:45:500:45:53

Of course it is.

0:45:530:45:55

It makes fun of the guy who's remembered it wrong and the people who miss the point.

0:45:550:45:59

-Well, I think...

-That's really unfair because a lot of people

0:45:590:46:02

looking in will think we have actually ridiculed Christ physically.

0:46:020:46:06

Christ is played by an actor, Kenneth Colley.

0:46:060:46:09

He speaks the words from the Sermon on the Mount.

0:46:090:46:12

It's treated respectfully. The camera pans away, we go to the back of the crowd

0:46:120:46:16

and someone shouts, "Speak up!" Because they can't hear.

0:46:160:46:19

LAUGHTER

0:46:190:46:21

Now, if that utterly undermines your faith in Christ,

0:46:210:46:24

then it can't be that strong.

0:46:240:46:25

Of course it doesn't. I started off saying this is such a tenth-rate film

0:46:250:46:29

that I don't believe it would disturb anybody's faith.

0:46:290:46:32

You started with an open mind, I realise that.

0:46:320:46:35

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:46:350:46:37

John, may I put to you a question?

0:46:400:46:44

Now, without in any way being pompous,

0:46:440:46:47

I have been Bishop of South London now

0:46:470:46:51

for over 20 years

0:46:510:46:53

and I'm appalled by the sadness, the unhappiness,

0:46:530:46:57

the tragedy of life. The drug scene,

0:46:570:47:02

the violence, the muggings and so on.

0:47:020:47:05

And many people now are standing back

0:47:050:47:08

with a measure of deep disturbance and some horror.

0:47:080:47:12

I was at the University of Cambridge only the Sunday before last

0:47:120:47:16

and I'm told how the undergraduates are now turning up to chapel

0:47:160:47:20

and seeking, seeing if Christianity

0:47:200:47:23

has got something to offer.

0:47:230:47:25

I think most of us, I'm sure all of you,

0:47:250:47:28

however much you may differ on this film,

0:47:280:47:31

we are deeply disturbed by what's going on in the world

0:47:310:47:34

and in this country.

0:47:340:47:36

Now, there is a desire to find truth.

0:47:360:47:40

To find some answer to our problems and the question I would put to you

0:47:400:47:45

is could you really put your hand on your heart

0:47:450:47:48

and say that film is going to help the younger generation

0:47:480:47:52

-in its pilgrimage for truth?

-Absolutely.

0:47:520:47:55

The message is... What is it, Michael?

0:47:550:47:58

Work it out for yourselves, you're all individuals. Don't do what people tell you to do.

0:47:580:48:02

-That's not...

-You find that a finalness of...?

-No, no.

0:48:020:48:06

-Starting point, starting point.

-Including the lampooning of Christ?

0:48:060:48:11

The lampooning of his death, which is the most disgraceful part?

0:48:110:48:15

Surely, Michael, it was a lampooning

0:48:150:48:17

of a form of death which happened to hundreds of people?

0:48:170:48:21

You are lampooning a scene which has played a fantastic part

0:48:210:48:25

in the lives of believers for generations.

0:48:250:48:28

A scene that has inspired the most amazing disinterestedness,

0:48:280:48:32

creativity, that set St Francis of Assisi wandering about the streets.

0:48:320:48:37

-Yes, true.

-That inspired St Augustine to write The City Of God...

0:48:370:48:41

This I accept, but I think the crucifixion...

0:48:410:48:44

All you've done is make a lot of people on the cross, singing a music hall song.

0:48:440:48:48

LAUGHTER

0:48:480:48:50

I mean, it's so disgusting when you think of it.

0:48:500:48:53

A lot of people go away very happy, laughing,

0:48:530:48:55

-their faith not touched one jot.

-I don't think it would touch their faith.

0:48:550:48:59

APPLAUSE

0:48:590:49:02

A lot of people on the first Good Friday went away from Calgary,

0:49:100:49:14

laughing their heads off and thinking the death of Jesus

0:49:140:49:18

-was a tremendous joke.

-That's very true.

0:49:180:49:20

APPLAUSE

0:49:200:49:22

As a matter of fact, all you've done...

0:49:220:49:24

The person you've followed in this film is Herod.

0:49:240:49:26

It was Herod who organised this absurd scene

0:49:260:49:29

and I'm only amazed that you didn't get some comic effects

0:49:290:49:33

out of the crown of thorns.

0:49:330:49:34

That's the only thing that puzzles me in the film.

0:49:340:49:37

If we wanted to make a joke of Jesus, he would've been on the cross.

0:49:370:49:41

He's in the film. He is not on the cross.

0:49:410:49:43

You make...

0:49:430:49:44

It's a gang of thieves, of common criminals who were,

0:49:440:49:47

-at that time, crucified in the hundreds day by day.

-That's...

0:49:470:49:50

I'm sorry. You think I'm wrong, but that's what I feel. It is not Christ...

0:49:500:49:54

-I think it's ludicrous because the people seeing this...

-This is what the film's about.

0:49:540:49:59

Malcolm can I just say... to an outsider, the Crucifixion is a much stronger event

0:49:590:50:05

if one realises that Christ went through something that everyone went through.

0:50:050:50:09

If you treat it like something only he went through,

0:50:090:50:12

which is the image you get,

0:50:120:50:13

I never realised everyone got crucified.

0:50:130:50:16

If he was crucified between... He was crucified between two thieves...

0:50:160:50:21

If the experience of those three people was the same,

0:50:210:50:25

because they went through the same physical experience,

0:50:250:50:28

then you are utterly misunderstanding what the Crucifixion means.

0:50:280:50:33

What the Passion means. Why it's had this enormous role in people's lives.

0:50:330:50:37

It wouldn't have had that role

0:50:370:50:38

if it was simply one of innumerable men dying on a cross.

0:50:380:50:43

It's because of what it signified, in terms of the incarnation,

0:50:430:50:49

and, of course, you leave that all out of account.

0:50:490:50:52

What you've done is you've made... You've succeeded in doing,

0:50:520:50:56

and for that reason, it will have no influence in the long run...

0:50:560:51:00

You have succeeded in reducing something which has inspired the greatest art

0:51:000:51:05

into something which is presented in terms of the lowest art.

0:51:050:51:10

You've said that we have to influence people.

0:51:100:51:13

We're just trying to make them laugh, make them happy.

0:51:130:51:16

-It helps them in the current situation the world is in.

-I'll have to call a halt.

0:51:160:51:21

I think you've made people happy and made them think and laugh.

0:51:210:51:24

-I think we've made them talk about it.

-You'll get your 30 pieces of silver, I'm quite sure.

0:51:240:51:31

I hasten to add that...

0:51:310:51:33

APPLAUSE

0:51:330:51:38

No, but you don't understand...

0:51:380:51:40

APPLAUSE DROWNS SPEECH

0:51:400:51:42

..You're missing a wonderful thing by seeing it in those terms

0:51:440:51:48

-and it's utterly tragic to me.

-Thank you very much. I hope that film won't shake anybody's faith.

0:51:480:51:54

Paul Jones has returned to his first love, the blues,

0:51:540:51:57

but without abandoning his acting career - as he's currently in a West End musical.

0:51:570:52:00

He's spending a lot of time behind a harmonica and a microphone in front of the Blues Band.

0:52:000:52:07

Here they are with Boom Boom, Out Go The Lights.

0:52:070:52:09

# No kiddin'

0:52:220:52:23

# I'm ready to fight

0:52:230:52:25

# I've been lookin' for my baby all night

0:52:250:52:29

# If I get her in my sight

0:52:290:52:33

# Boom boom! Out go the lights

0:52:330:52:36

# I thought I was treating my baby fair

0:52:430:52:46

# Now she's gettin' all in my hair

0:52:460:52:50

# If I get her in my sight

0:52:500:52:53

# Boom boom! Out go the lights

0:52:540:52:57

# No kiddin'

0:53:460:53:47

# I'm ready to go

0:53:470:53:49

# If I find her, boy, don't you know

0:53:490:53:53

# If I get her in my sight

0:53:530:53:57

# Boom boom! Out go the lights

0:53:570:54:00

# I've never been so mad before

0:54:070:54:11

# Till I found out she ain't mine no more

0:54:110:54:14

# If I get her in my sight

0:54:140:54:17

# Boom boom! Out go the lights. #

0:54:180:54:21

APPLAUSE

0:55:130:55:16

Boom Boom, Out Go The Lights from the Blues Band - vocals, Paul Jones.

0:55:260:55:30

The Blues Band are playing in London now. I recommend them warmly.

0:55:300:55:34

My final guest is a phenomenon of the publishing world.

0:55:340:55:38

Few households have never found space for one or more

0:55:380:55:41

of the 26 editions of the Guinness Book Of Records,

0:55:410:55:43

the largest-selling copyright book ever.

0:55:430:55:46

Please welcome Norris McWhirter.

0:55:460:55:49

APPLAUSE

0:55:490:55:52

Norris, you are the author, compiler, editor?

0:55:590:56:03

-What do you call yourself of the Guinness Book Of Records?

-Yes, I put it together.

0:56:030:56:07

Why do you think people buy it every year?

0:56:070:56:10

It's a great book, and I've bought it at least 23 of the 26 years,

0:56:100:56:15

but why do people go on buying it?

0:56:150:56:16

Every year it goes to number one on the book charts.

0:56:160:56:19

Because 22-23% of it gets out of date every year.

0:56:190:56:24

This obsolescence is so high that last year's edition is no good, so you've got to have this year's.

0:56:240:56:31

-Like American cars, it has built-in obsolescence.

-Yes, like American cars.

0:56:310:56:35

Do you ever get a bad year, like a bad Beaujolais, when no records are broken?

0:56:350:56:39

No, every year is a vintage year as regards breaking records.

0:56:390:56:44

Next year will be an Olympic year and it'll be even worse - or better, whichever way you look at it.

0:56:440:56:49

It's possible that one year, not an awful lot will happen.

0:56:490:56:53

No, everything happens. The astounding thing is when things you think are settled -

0:56:530:56:59

you can't break - THEY get broken.

0:56:590:57:01

They even found, last year, a piece of land further north

0:57:010:57:04

than the most northerly piece of land ever known.

0:57:040:57:07

You'd think that that was impossible, but these things happen.

0:57:070:57:11

-Under the ice, was this?

-Yes, it was under the ice.

0:57:110:57:15

North of a place called Kaffeklubben O - O is the Danish for "island".

0:57:150:57:19

And that is north of Greenland, closest to the North Pole.

0:57:190:57:23

-How far away from the North Pole?

-It's about 360 miles, so it's a long way.

-Quite a slog.

-Yes, a long slog.

0:57:230:57:31

There are some records like Bob Beamon's long-jump record,

0:57:310:57:36

which seems set for a good few years.

0:57:360:57:39

Even Bob Beamon with his 29 feet 2.5 inches which he did in Mexico City in 1968, that is under threat,

0:57:390:57:46

because there's an American called Larry Myricks,

0:57:460:57:49

and he's jumped 27 feet 11.75 inches at sea level.

0:57:490:57:53

At sea level, the resistance is much higher than at altitude.

0:57:530:57:58

When you're at altitude, a mile-and-a-half up in Mexico City,

0:57:580:58:02

the air is thinner. It's only 76% to be precise.

0:58:020:58:06

So, one would expect any jump at Beamon's level in Mexico City level to be 20-odd% better.

0:58:060:58:13

Yes. He missed out the 28s. He went straight from 27.5 right up.

0:58:130:58:18

Has this chap tried it up in Mexico City?

0:58:180:58:22

No, he hasn't. I hope he does. If he does, great people always say,

0:58:220:58:27

"Nobody now alive will ever see that record broken" - Bob Beamon's.

0:58:270:58:31

It was a remarkable record.

0:58:310:58:33

It was the equivalent to knocking 13 seconds off the mile.

0:58:330:58:36

So it's a tremendous improvement.

0:58:360:58:38

How do you classify records? Say, I was to run 101 yards and say,

0:58:380:58:43

"This is the world's fastest 101 yards," would you let it in?

0:58:430:58:47

Certainly not, no. That would just be fudging it.

0:58:470:58:53

Records have got to have some significance

0:58:530:58:56

and be internationally competitive and comparable.

0:58:560:59:01

There are some things so crazy that nobody else does them, so there's nothing to compare.

0:59:010:59:07

For instance, the first underwater violinist - nobody else does it.

0:59:070:59:13

-There is one?

-Yes, a chap called Mark Gottlieb in Oregon.

0:59:130:59:17

He's dead serious, he has waterproof rosin and he takes it really seriously.

0:59:170:59:23

How could you beat it? Staying under longer?

0:59:230:59:25

The Japanese have an underwater orchestra.

0:59:250:59:28

-Really?

-That's the way to beat it.

0:59:300:59:32

BOTH CHUCKLE

0:59:320:59:34

Are there any records which you wouldn't print?

0:59:340:59:37

Like if someone said, "I've driven from Piccadilly Circus to the centre of Oxford in 32 minutes" -

0:59:370:59:43

which I've done on several occasions!

0:59:430:59:45

-Would you not print that?

-Certainly not.

0:59:450:59:48

No, we don't print anything gratuitously dangerous

0:59:480:59:51

or records of place-to-place driving because innocent people would get killed.

0:59:510:59:57

We know some of the figures and they're horrific,

0:59:571:00:00

but we don't publish them and nor do anyone else.

1:00:001:00:04

There's a conspiracy of silence about those things.

1:00:041:00:07

-Has any faked record ever got past you?

-No, we nearly had one.

1:00:071:00:12

We used to be a great pub game and the book was invented to settle arguments in 84,000 pubs.

1:00:121:00:20

That's why it's called Guinness. What happened was,

1:00:201:00:24

they used to balance 12-sided three-penny bits edge-on-edge, and the record was 11.

1:00:241:00:30

One day, we got a claim for 13. That made us immediately suspicious.

1:00:301:00:33

People never break records by a bigger margin than you have to.

1:00:331:00:38

And I phoned this fellow up who was down in Eastbourne,

1:00:381:00:41

and I said that I wanted to know how he did this great feat.

1:00:411:00:45

Eventually he admitted how he did it.

1:00:451:00:47

He got hold of the coins, got a card table, glued it to a ceiling, put a carpet up there and a chair,

1:00:471:00:55

suspended them with tape and photographed the lot upside down.

1:00:551:00:59

LAUGHTER But luckily he admitted it.

1:00:591:01:03

How did the book begin? One often hears stories, but you and your brother Ross...

1:01:031:01:08

-Was it actually your idea?

-No, we were commissioned to do it.

1:01:081:01:12

We were already working on records for a breakfast food company.

1:01:121:01:16

Sir Hugh Beaver, the Chief Executive of the Guinness brewery was out shooting in Ireland,

1:01:161:01:22

and he either missed or got, or was shooting at, a golden plover.

1:01:221:01:28

He wanted to know if this was the fastest game bird in Europe.

1:01:281:01:32

Very expensive reference books, none told him the answer.

1:01:321:01:35

It occurred to him that this is the sort of thing people argue about.

1:01:351:01:39

Not golden plovers - the greatest weight a man's ever lifted

1:01:391:01:43

or the most children any woman's had - those things.

1:01:431:01:47

And there's no book which gives you the answer and he said,

1:01:471:01:51

"Right, we will produce such a book." That's how it was generated.

1:01:511:01:56

Did you anticipate such huge success?

1:01:561:01:58

No, because the first one we produced went to the chief buyer

1:01:581:02:03

of the largest wholesale chain in the country, as you know, he's an author.

1:02:031:02:08

And he looked at it and wrote down on a pad his order.

1:02:081:02:12

For the whole nation, six copies.

1:02:121:02:14

-Six!

-He now orders 120,000, so it's changed a little bit.

1:02:141:02:20

What would you have done if it hadn't taken off?

1:02:201:02:23

-If it hadn't?

-Say, if the idea hadn't worked.

1:02:231:02:26

We would've been working on other ideas

1:02:261:02:29

because we had a business, supplying facts and figures

1:02:291:02:32

to newspapers and yearbooks and advertisers.

1:02:321:02:36

-So you were in that business already?

-Yes.

-And this was the magic thing.

1:02:361:02:42

It was a call from Chris Chataway that summoned us to the brewery,

1:02:421:02:46

because he had just got his first job there.

1:02:461:02:49

He was a world record holder for the three miles, so it was rather appropriate that it was him.

1:02:491:02:54

-How long did he hold that record for?

-A very short time.

1:02:541:02:57

He was overtaken, it was 13 minutes 32.2, if I remember rightly.

1:02:571:03:01

He shared it with a fellow called Freddie Green and was overtaken rapidly

1:03:011:03:05

Vladimir Kuts ran faster but he didn't used to be timed at three miles as he was metrically-minded.

1:03:051:03:11

-Chataway, I recall, beat Kuts.

-He did. That was a famous 5,000 metres.

1:03:111:03:17

That was about a month after we went to the brewery, in October 1954.

1:03:171:03:23

I remember everyone was white at the knuckles and it was televised and it was a tremendous race.

1:03:231:03:29

If I can get on to you yourself very briefly, to end up with.

1:03:291:03:34

You lost Ross tragically, four years ago.

1:03:341:03:37

Obviously, it's made a great difference to your life,

1:03:371:03:41

but do you find you can function on your own? Or being an identical twin,

1:03:411:03:45

have you lost something more than a brother. Especially someone so closely involved with your work.

1:03:451:03:52

An identical twin is genetically the same person, and every day,

1:03:521:03:57

I miss him as his knowledge in certain fields was better than mine

1:03:571:04:01

and we worked so closely together.

1:04:011:04:04

Also, you had the opportunity of discussing things

1:04:041:04:06

and in that way, one had to be halved or doubled.

1:04:061:04:12

And one has to make double the effort to be the same person.

1:04:121:04:16

The book, despite the tragic loss of Ross,

1:04:161:04:18

has gone from strength to strength, and your team...

1:04:181:04:22

There's a wonderful team of people.

1:04:221:04:24

Very enthusiastic. They work very hard. People are happier when they work hard.

1:04:241:04:28

We're now in 24 languages and so it sells about 75,000 a week

1:04:281:04:34

-and it's hard keeping it going.

-I'm not surprised and you are in your own book as the largest...

1:04:341:04:42

-We had to put it in, because we overtook...

-Modest though you were.

-Well, we have to record records.

1:04:421:04:49

And Dr Spock, we overtook in November 1974.

1:04:491:04:52

And as Dr Spock disowns everything he ever said,

1:04:521:04:55

it's justice that he's been booted out of your book.

1:04:551:04:59

He's very interesting, I'd love to meet him.

1:04:591:05:02

He won a gold medal for rowing in the Olympics in 1924.

1:05:021:05:06

I only discovered that recently.

1:05:061:05:08

-Norris McWhirter, thank you very much indeed.

-Thank you.

1:05:081:05:12

APPLAUSE

1:05:121:05:16

This is the end of the show and the end of my long run as host - two weeks.

1:05:231:05:27

LAUGHTER

1:05:271:05:29

Next week, the Cambridge Footlights will be taking over the entire programme

1:05:291:05:34

and I'll be speaking at the Odiham and Greywell Cricket Club at their annual dinner for a derisory fee.

1:05:341:05:40

Thanks to John Cleese, Michael Palin, Malcolm Muggeridge,

1:05:401:05:42

the Bishop of Southwark, Paul Jones, the Blues Band and Norris McWhirter. Over and out.

1:05:421:05:48

APPLAUSE

1:05:481:05:52

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd

1:06:041:06:07

E-mail: [email protected]

1:06:071:06:10

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