Tommy Cooper and Frankie Howerd Parkinson: The Interviews

Good evening. Tonight we celebrate two men who made a living out of making us laugh.

It's a tough job. By comparison, a lion tamer has it cushy.

The two comedians tonight were more clowns than tellers of jokes Tommy Cooper and Frankie Howerd.

What a...!

I've a splitting headache!

Fool!

Get out, get out!

Just like that! JUST LIKE THAT!

I was in charge of the guest list for a dinner at which Tommy Cooper was to speak.

Trevor Howard asked me for a ticket. "It's his timing. All actors should watch how he controls an audience.

"He is," said Trevor, "a genius."

He didn't look like one with that wonderful gormless face and the fez.

This is probably the only TV interview he did.

He was nervous and needed his beloved props.

You're about to see me playing straight man to a great comic.

It might not be a model interview, but it was great fun.

CHEERS AND APPLAUSE

-What's that on your head?

-A bucket.

That's not a bucket, it's a saucepan.

Is it? I've got the wrong hat.

-Sit down.

-Thank you very much.

As I said in the introduction, you're the most impersonated man in Britain.

When was the first time you went, "Not like that"?

-I never did.

-You never did...?

-I never said that at all. Never.

The other thing they do when they take you off is...

-Don't they?

-No!

No!

-What's it like being...?

-They don't do that.

-What do they do?

-What did you say?

-They go like that.

No, they do it like THAT.

A-ha... I'll do it once more. A-haaaa!

Where did the fez come from?

-The fez?

-Yes, the fez.

Funnily enough, the fez came when I was in Egypt in the army.

And, uh...

I was... I was thinking of something else. I got led away a bit there.

-I'm sorry. Anyway, it's nothing to do with the show. It's all right.

-What's the matter?

I backed a horse today. At twenty to one.

And it came in at twenty past four.

Terrific.

Nothing to do with what I'm gonna talk about. Just a personal thing.

But when people give you a tip, it's always from the side of the mouth.

Or like that.

They don't want to hear it themselves in case THEY back it.

Today...

I don't really gamble. But today this man gave me a tip and I lost £200.

-£200?

-Yeah, but that's nothing to do with it.

I shouldn't say anything about it.

It's just nothing. Go ahead.

-Very upsetting.

-No, no, I'm sorry I brought it up.

Oh, God!

Two hundred pounds!

I'll be all right now.

I'm all right, I'm all right.

-I asked you about the fez. When did you first start...?

-< HE LAUGHS

Is there somebody else?

Oh, God!

I got the fez... No, I got the fez...

-Does my voice sound a bit hoarse?

-Yes.

It does a bit. I lost my voice a little bit today.

Two hundred quid, it was!

I lost my voice a bit so I went and saw a doctor.

He said, "Open your mouth." I went like that.

He said, "A little raw-er." I went, "Rrr!"

It wasn't loud. It was, "Rrr!"

No, when I got the fez, I got it when I was in Egypt. I was in the army there.

We did a show at the YMCA. I used to wear a pith helmet.

PITH helmet.

Oh, my teeth!

Anyway, I used to wear this pith... One day I forgot to bring it with me.

-So these waiters were walking about with a fez, so I took one and I wore it ever since.

-Why not today?

-Why?

-Why?

Well, it's a long story.

I'll tell you about that later on.

Let's talk about your magic. Though you build your act around not being a very good magician,

-you are a very accomplished one. Could you show me a straight trick done for real?

-All right.

-Will you?

-Yes. Here's a trick with some sponge balls.

Here's a yellow one, dyed red.

And here's a blue one, dyed red.

-Right?

-Right.

-That's left, right? And that's right.

-Right.

-That's right and that's left, right?

-Right? Cos this is left, right?

-Right.

-Right, OK.

If I take that away, what's left?

-One.

-No, this is left.

That's left, right? That's right, right?

-I'll confuse you. I'll do it in French.

-All right.

-Do you speak French?

-No.

Une, deux, three.

We're only gonna use two. Une...deux.

So I get une, put it in "deux".

-Une in "deux" and deux over "deux".

-Right.

Then I get une in "deux" and deux in "deux".

The idea of the trick is this.

I make une jump from "deux" to over "deux".

And when I open my hand, there'll be nothing "deux". They'll both be over "deux".

Look, see? They're there.

APPLAUSE

I'll tell you what I'll do this time. You help me with this, Michael.

I put this one in my hand like that.

You squeeze this one in your hand.

I'm gonna make mine disappear and also make yours... Watch.

It's going now... It's gone.

You don't believe me? Look.

-Is yours gone? Can you feel it?

-Yes.

-Just put it down there.

Two.

APPLAUSE

Put both of them in your hand like that.

Hold it there like that.

-Can I make that one jump from there to over there?

-No.

I put it in there. Boom-doom, open your hand.

Magic! Very good.

I'll show you how it's done.

You get this one and this one and hold them tight. You know this too.

It makes it look like one.

You wave it about, put it in there like that,

then put this one in your pocket.

-How many's in there?

-Two.

No, you weren't watching.

I'll tell you.

I'll take...this one.

And this one here.

Have you got one of my balls?

-Have you?

-No.

Ah, here it is. There.

Now which two would you like?

-Those two.

-Right.

The two lightest ones. Put those there like that.

Put these ones in your hand like that. Hold 'em tight.

You saw that, did you?

Did you see it?

Yeah, I've got two balls in here.

You've got two balls, yeah?

-In my hand.

-How many would you say?

< THREE! Three? All right, open your hand.

APPLAUSE

Let's talk more about your act. Have you ever used animals in your act?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have.

I brought this back while I was in Africa.

-What is it?

-It's a mongoose.

A mongoose?!

It's a man-eating mongoose.

-I didn't know there was such a thing.

-Yes, sometimes it's friendly, sometimes not.

The other day I was tickling it under the chin. I did it yesterday and I lost a... Like this.

When I got this, I was out in the middle of the Congo jungle.

A friend of mine was stationed there with me.

I remember one day he wrote home to his mother,

"Dear Mum, I'm out here in the heart of the Congo jungle, eating bananas and coconuts all day long.

"I'm getting brown as a berry.

"Incidentally, the tribe are headshrinkers. They can shrink your head to the size of a small orange.

"PS. If you get me a bowler hat size one-and-a-half, send it over."

He'll come out in a minute.

Come on. He will, he'll come out. Out you come!

APPLAUSE

You're also a dab hand with inventions.

-Yes.

-What's that?

-I tell you what, I've got it here.

It just happened to be there.

Sometimes when you go to the cinema to watch a film, people behind you keep talking.

So I invented this.

Very good idea.

Then you can hear the film in peace.

And if you don't like the film, you can listen to the conversation.

APPLAUSE

It's all right you doing that, but you still haven't explained why you're not wearing the fez.

Well, I've got some very sad news

because since we joined the Common Market, I think after next week, I can't wear the fez any more.

-Why?

-Because it's a rule of the Common Market.

-Common Market regulation?

-Yes.

I don't know why we joined. We've never won It's a Knockout yet.

Know what I mean? That's the rules and regulations.

So they sent some hats along for me to try on because I can't wear the fez any more after all these years.

-So what...?

-Fez's fez, isn't it?

-Absolutely.

-So what have we got?

-I'll just try this.

This is a hat they sent along.

I didn't send them, they sent them along.

They keep sending them along.

A flying helmet!

No, a walking helmet. You want to see my plane!

Oh, dear, oh, dear!

That's what they sent along.

Cheese!

Which d'you think you might favour?

I don't know which one. You've got to keep going.

No wonder I kept getting lost.

What do you think?

Magnificent.

This is my own hat. I wear this.

-I'm gonna forget the Common Market.

-That's right.

-I'll stick to that.

How's that...? Yes? APPLAUSE

Tommy Cooper wanted his props, Frankie Howerd demanded a script.

He wanted the interview written so he could rehearse the responses.

We persuaded him against it, but you can see the nerve ends showing.

He wasn't a spontaneous performer. He rehearsed every "ooh" and "ah", each ad lib was carefully worked on.

The great Dr Johnson observed that a comedian need not necessarily be a person of humorous disposition.

He was thinking of Frankie Howerd.

Our first encounter occurred in the first year of the Parkinson Show in 1971.

APPLAUSE

-Here or there?

-There, please.

Thank you very much.

-In fact...

-Wait a minute. Just make sure you've got the same questions I've got the answers for.

-I think so.

-Can we start off by telling everybody...?

-Do, do!

Today is an anniversary for you because it's 25 years to the day...

-Big mouth! 25 years since what?

-Since you first appeared on radio.

About 25 years since I did anything.

If you know what I mean. But, um...

Since, uh, since...

Since I appeared on radio. Yes, radio. Ooh, remember?

-That was Variety Bandbox.

-Yes, it was 25 years ago. It was a Sunday. You're quite right.

I was still doing the same jokes.

-When did you first want to be a comedian?

-When war was declared and I went into the army.

-I can't imagine you in the army.

-Why not?

-You're hardly a man of military bearing.

Is he being personal?

-No.

-Yes, you're being naughty.

I was sympathising with you because you said you had a bad throat. Wants cutting!

We do the work, he gets the money.

-You were asking me about the army, sorry.

-Did you enjoy the army?

I enjoyed aspects of it

because, first of all, before I went into the army, I was intensely shy.

And having to mix with all sorts of different kinds of people we were all in Nissen huts

one had to learn to cope with other people and learn to be less shy.

What they did was they said, "We're gonna put on some shows at the YMCA. Is there anyone can do anything?"

And I thought, "I don't know if I ought to..." And I got very nervous.

Eventually, I plunged and said, "I think I could do something."

I said, "I can sing a song." Would you believe! I couldn't sing then, but it was meant to be funny.

It was a song called Three Little Fishes. Now this is a long time ago.

I did lots of squeaks in it "Ooh!" That was the first time I did it.

-#

-Down in the meadow in a little fishy pool

-#

-Live three little fishes and a mummy fishy too

-#

-"Now swim," said the mummy fishy, "Swim if you can..."

-#

-SQUEAKY SOUNDS #

-Are you taking the mickey...?

-#

The comedian is often seen as a lonely, insecure, even tragic figure.

Is this true? Is this the way you feel?

Lonely, insecure?

Let's take Hancock as an example. He came to a very sad end.

-Have you ever contemplated suicide as he did?

-No.

I've contemplated murder.

Do you have any bitter memories about really dying the death?

-Going badly, you mean?

-Yes.

25 years is a long time and I've had lots of ups and downs and a lot of times when I've gone badly,

a lot of times when I haven't been very good. I've mistimed gags.

I've done jokes and thought, "They didn't laugh."

My manager has come up to me and said, "You bloody fool, you forgot the funny line at the end!"

I promise you this is true.

The first joke I did was about this old man poor old boy, 82.

And he went to the doctor's.

So...wait a minute. So this doctor said,

"What's wrong?"

So the man said, "Nothing's wrong.

"I'm 82. I want you to examine me because I'm getting married. Saturday."

So this doctor said, "Married?"

He said, "Yes, I want you to examine me and make sure I'm in good working order

"because I want to be right for the honeymoon."

The doctor said, "Who are you marrying?" He said, "A girl."

The doctor said, "How old is she?" He said, "24."

The doctor said, "You're 82 and she's 24?!"

He said, "Well... Take... That's... Yes... Well..."

He said, "Well, yes... You seem to be all... Yes, you should..."

So the old boy said, "Could you give me any advice?"

So the doctor said, "If you're 82 and she's 24, there's quite a discrepancy.

"Could I suggest you took in a young lodger?

"Because, you see, you're out getting your old age pension,

"she's on her own a lot. It'll be company for her, it'll keep her happy and satisfied.

"Take in a young lodger."

So this old boy said, "I'll do that," and off he went.

A year later he was going down the high street on his Lambretta,

and this doctor saw him and said, "Here!" So the old boy went over.

The doctor said, "How are you getting on?" He said, "Smashing." "And the marriage?" "Smashing."

He said, "How's your wife?" "Smashing. She's just had a baby."

The doctor said, "Oh! How's the lodger?"

He said, "She's had one as well!"

-LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

-That's the first gag...

It is amazing how little things change because that is typical honest vulgarity

-that is your trademark now.

-I beg your pardon. I've never been so insulted!

-'You mean Up Pompeii?

-Yes.'

Oh, be mine, be mine!

Your lips... Your lips are like ripe cherries.

Your throat is like a swan's.

Your n... Your shoulders are like...

Wait a minute!

Your shoulders are like Venus de Milo.

Your bosoms are like the round hills of Rome.

-What about my eyes?

-I'm not going that way, I'm sorry.

-Be mine, be mine!

-Do you really think we ought to?

We may as well. It's bitter out.

For the moment, that's all we've got time for.

-Got somebody else coming on?

-Marion Montgomery.

-Marion, girl! Ready?

-She does a nice little turn. Who else is on?

-Sir Ralph Richardson.

Oh, a nice turn, Ralph!

Frankie Howerd was discovered by a wide cross-section of the public.

His career was resurrected by the '60s satirists. Peter Cook gave him a stint at the Establishment Club,

Ned Sherrin a spot on That Was The Week That Was.

A slump was revived by Up Pompeii, followed by a time of neglect

which was overturned when Sid Vicious made him the darling of the punk rockers.

Here are highlights of my favourite interview with Frankie in 1980.

The other guests are Trevor Nunn and Bryan Forbes.

APPLAUSE

Oh, that one! Thank you.

Hello.

Thank you very much.

-God bless you. Thank you very much. How are you?

-Very well. Are you OK?

Yes. Commence the interview.

-Commence the interview?

-Yes.

Here, listen. This morning. Wasn't that disgraceful? Did you see that?

-What?

-In the papers. See that?

-What?

-That woman in the divorce, a woman from Glamorgan.

She's not here, is she?

Oh, please God, am I saying the wrong thing? It was disgraceful.

-What was disgraceful?

-I'm trying to tell you. Oh, my God!

Another nightmare's ahead of us, I can tell that. This is a scandalous story.

She was married for ten years. Burston, her name was, or something.

Married for ten years and her husband never said anything to her.

Only three words in ten years!

-That's all he said. She got the divorce.

-For what?

-For cruelty.

-What were the three words?

She got the divorce and custody of the three children.

Is that you, missus, from Glamorgan? Don't try and steal the tag lines!

-34 years...

-Excuse me, who told you to say that?

-Where d'you get your data from?

-It's an anniversary.

-34 years?

-That's what I was told.

How the devil could I be performing at eight years of age!

-How dare you!

-Do you remember...?

-Oh, dear God, we'll be here till midnight!

-We ARE here till midnight! I'm so sorry.

-That's OK.

-How are you?

Do you remember your audition?

-Yes, I do.

-What did you do?

-Well, when I first started... This is riveting.

You'll be engrossed now. It's been such a jolly show so far.

No, never mind.

-He did his best. Didn't you?

-It's called a balanced programme.

-What did you do at your RADA...?

-Audition.

I was in a church play. I was a Sunday school teacher you wouldn't believe that, but I was.

I was a very young lad and they put me in a play.

I used to be a very nervous boy and I used to have an impediment of the sp... There we are!

I used to have an impediment of speech.

When I got very nervous... Kind of what they call dyslexia.

So they put me in a play Tilly of Bloomsbury. You wouldn't know!

Afterwards, the church warden said to me, "You should be an actor."

So I thought, "Right, I'll be an actor."

I went to a London County Council class.

There was a teacher who'd taught the previous year's winner of a scholarship to RADA.

She said, "Yes, you'll be an actor." So I went to RADA.

There's a big gymnasium there, and it was a cold morning grey like today.

I did my pieces. I stood there stuttering.

And you see... Go on, ask me what I did.

I asked you what you did about ten minutes ago!

I trust you're not losing interest!

-I asked you what you did at your audition.

-I did some Shakespeare.

That's what you want to get into. I did "To be or not to be", which is about three minutes.

"To be..." It's supposed to last about three minutes.

By the time I had finished, dawn was breaking.

All the panel were going like this and they just said, "Get out!"

So I did and went back... I used to live in the outskirts of London.

There were some beautiful fields and I sat and cried for an hour.

I thought, "It's the end of the world. I'll have to get a job."

Then I thought, "No, I'll be a comic."

Then I switched to comedy, I hope. Some don't think it's comedy!

What about doing an audition now for our two very distinguished guests?

Oh, you can always tell they're distinguished. They dress so badly!

You're all right, but look at him!

Have you caught the new suit? Makes a change.

-And they say there's no money about.

-What about doing...?

-Who whistled?

It was a man. That's all I get.

-Sorry.

-Would you audition for these two gentlemen?

-Now?

-You might get a job.

A job? The way they're looking! He's going...

What shall I do? I can't do auditions!

-What do you want to do?

-I tell you what.

-Promise to listen with interest?

-After what you said about my clothes?

-It's the sign of a genius.

-Is it...?

-This hypocrisy!

I might get a job out of this. What can I do?

I haven't prepared anything.

Pardon the expression, I'll show you my range.

Where does it go from? To where?

-Right, what can I do?

-Anger.

Anger. You'll love this.

You swine!

Where's the camera? Play it on that camera there, that's anger!

You swine, I won't do it!

Sorry, that's not anger, that's tragedy.

No, no.

Sorry.

That was meant to be anger.

Come on, I'll get you, you swine! Come on! You don't frighten me for a second.

-What else do you want?

-Humility.

-Pardon?

-Humility.

-Your flies are undone! >

-Shut your face!

It's a zip. It can't be flies, it's a zip!

Thank you, Ernie Wise. Keep your trap shut.

-He's put me off now. Humble?

-Humble.

Oh, please! Please give me some money, I'm starving!

I'm just a tiny tot. Look at me.

-I'm no good at all. What else do you want?

-Passion.

-Passion?

-Passion.

-< I'm over here!

-LAUGHTER

-What did she say? What did she say?

-"Get off!" did she say?

-"I'm over here," she said.

-You want passion? Come over here.

Come on!

You're an angel. Look into my eyes.

This one.

-LAUGHTER

-Shut up, you!

Oh, my darling!

I love you very much.

I want to be tender.

I want to be loving, I want to be gracious...

But I can't!

I'll tame you.

-APPLAUSE

-Here we are. Lovely.

Listen. I still get the audition.

SHE got the job!

The cheeky devil said SHE got the job!

Let's see some action from you now.

APPLAUSE

I can't act at all.

There's no way.

Anger.

-That's the method school.

-He looks like Geoffrey Howe!

Come on, passion... No!

-They haven't given me somebody to work with.

-Some drama, then.

-I can't. It makes me embarrassed.

"I can't, I can't!" Go on.

I won't ask you to do humility cos there's no chance of that!

Sit down.

APPLAUSE

-Oh, dear!

-I think he's worse than...

-What do you think, Trevor?

-Who do you think was best? Be honest.

It's different cos you're such a virile...

-What are you laughing at? You have inside information?

-I thought Frankie's were all the same.

-All the same?

-That's cruel.

-It is cruel. I don't know if I can go on now.

Would you like to lay bare the real Frankie Howerd?

In this weather? You're out of your mind!

-What are you really like underneath?

-Pardon?!

Here we go again. It's too cold tonight.

Michael, you know me a little bit. What do YOU think I'm like?

-As a person?

-You're like most funny men. You're serious offstage.

Ohhh!

Be careful what you say now. I shall sue you.

If you're naughty, I'll sue you for every penny of that Australian fortune you've got. Every penny.

You can't earn an honest bob in this country.

-He hasn't earned it yet.

-That's right.

-I haven't noticed that stop you.

-You know me. I'm serious, you think?

-Yes, off.

And capable of being quite down, morose.

Ohh! Isn't everybody sometimes?

Yes, but you don't expect it of comedians.

It must make you fed up, people coming up to you and saying, "Make me laugh." You can't be gloomy.

Unfortunately, I have, as you've said before, bags under the eyes.

It takes four hours in the make-up room to get rid of these bags.

And I look more morose than I am.

I walk around, and all I'm thinking most of the time is, "Tonight I'll have steak-and-kidney pie."

Really nothing at all. And people say, "Come on, smile!"

I'm not really... I have a rather dilapidated face.

Next week we'll be looking at an interview with Orson Welles I did in 1973.

Until then, a very good night.

Private Simpkins, L. It's from the girl at the cookhouse at Aldershot.

She says she's anxiously waiting for him to come home as she has something for him in the oven.

I don't see anything to laugh at.

Subtitles by Calum Short BBC Scotland 1995

Oohh!

Ooooohhh!

There's one more. Oooohh! That's the lot.