Episode 1 Talk at the BBC

Can I ask you, going back before that time, what was your introduction to the fair sex, David?

-Do we get bleeped on this programme?

-No, we don't get bleeped. You may speak freely.

Well, I know what you're getting at, Michael.

LAUGHTER

You can take the bleeps out. Anyway...

I was sort of almost 15. That's my excuse, anyway.

We lived in London and there wasn't room for me in this small house,

so I was farmed out into a room up at St James's Place somewhere. We lived in Sloane Street.

And so every night, after dinner, this creepy stepfather I had used to give me tuppence for the bus.

A number 19 or 22 or 30. I remember those, up Sloane Street.

I used to get off at the Ritz Hotel and walk down into my ghastly burrow with a pot under the bed.

So... And I got more adventurous and I used to walk further on up to Piccadilly

and look at all the lights - Bovril and Owbridge's Lung Tonic and all those lovely things.

Then I realised that lots of girls are walking about at the same time.

Then I once saw a spectacular pair of legs and I followed this girl, just to look at her.

And she seemed to have an awful lot of men friends, you know, and she'd talk to people.

So I went to my room and I kept on thinking about this girl.

The next night, I couldn't wait to get up to Piccadilly again. I walked around and I couldn't find her.

Finally, I did. I saw her with a very nice-looking man. I thought it was her father, a man in a dinner jacket.

She took him into this little house in Cork Street.

And I hid and waited to see if she ever came out again.

She did. She came out quite soon as a matter of fact. LAUGHTER

Anyway, um... After that, I really thought of this girl all the time.

And I used to go looking for her at night.

One night, she suddenly turned on me. She was a lovely Cockney.

She said, "What do you want? Do you want a piece, mate?"

"What's she talking about?" She said, "Do you want to come home with me?" I said, "Yes!"

LAUGHTER

This dream took me into this flat and I thought this will be the ginger beer and the gramophone records.

-A likely story!

-Oh, dear.

Then she gave me this ghastly book of photographs and said,

"If you're having any trouble, take a look at these first." So I... "Aagh!"

LAUGHTER

You see...

Then she appeared with the usual thing, the pink shoes and nothing else, and I'm absolutely gibbering.

So she said, "You can wash over there, dear."

There was a terrible sort of kidney-shaped table full of blue fluid, you know.

So I... LAUGHTER

It was terrible. And I washed my hands. I didn't know...

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

'And now we come to our new feature, A Woman Wonders Why?

'In it, the interviewer seeks the feminine point of view.

'Seeking the point of view of a woman driver tonight is Yolande Turner from South Africa.

'She's talking to the organiser of the Motor Show at Earls Court, Stanley Clark.'

Good evening, Mr Clark. I'm very pleased to meet you and I'm delighted to have you here.

-That's very nice of you.

-I'm also pleased to see that the Motor Show is a very feminine one. Why is that?

I think that a man is very brave today if he doesn't buy a car without consulting his wife.

That's why the manufacturers have gone in more for the nicer colours and more elegant lines.

I do prefer to be driven by a man,

but I also think that women drivers are more cautious and careful. Don't you agree?

-If you say "cautious", they drive more slowly than men, but I do think they lack concentration rather.

-Oh?

I think a man is able to put his business worries on one side

and concentrate on his driving whereas very few women can do that.

They're always thinking of what they have to get for dinner and the little number they're having for Ascot.

-I can't agree with you.

-They're most unpredictable.

Thank you very much. I'm afraid we've arrived at the point

where it's the masculine point of view and not the feminine one.

Thank you for answering my questions and coming along this evening.

I wish you every success for the Motor Show

and I hope most sincerely that the car tax doesn't go up next week.

-I hope that a million times more than you do.

-Thank you.

-Good night.

First of all, Miss Mansfield isn't in that bed because she's ailing and I'm not here because I'm a doctor.

She's in the bed because in a minute she will be made love to by an actor in a film called The Challenge.

You won't think I'm rude if I say that a visit to you is rather like a visit to the Tower of London.

You're both institutions and I wonder what it feels like to belong to the public?

My goodness! I guess I feel the same way as the Tower of London feels.

Do you find it at all disagreeable

to find yourself and quite often your family on more or less constant view?

Actually, I feel that a star owes it to her public

to bring the public into her life.

They feel... The fans feel that they kind of own you

and if you kept your life a complete secret, it wouldn't be fair to them.

But my private life, and when I say private life, I mean private life, is always very private.

You're presented as a symbol of sex appeal. I wonder if you care to define that phrase, "sex appeal"?

Sex appeal is a wonderful, warm, womanly, healthy feeling.

If you're a woman, it's womanly. If you're not, it's manly.

-Does it come from inside, Miss Mansfield?

-It comes only from inside.

It's nothing that's manufactured. It has nothing to do with measurements or lipstick colour.

To me, it's cleanliness and youth

and an effervescent desire to enjoy life.

That's what sex appeal is to me,

the sort of vibrancy that you find present in a young kitten.

And lastly, a question about your career.

When you first went to Hollywood, you went there to try for the role of Joan of Arc.

Does this mean you're particularly interested in the classical roles?

No, I didn't try for the part of Joan of Arc.

I had been to three universities and two or three private dramatic schools before I went to Hollywood,

preparing myself for my hoped career as an actress, my hopeful career as an actress.

I did a soliloquy from Joan of Arc for Milton Lewis,

who was the Head of Casting at Paramount Studios, in order to audition

and he just seemed to think that I was wasting my, as he said, obvious talents.

And he lightened my hair and tightened my dresses and this is the result.

So it began as a way of entertaining your mates?

No, it began as a way of making money, quite honestly.

When did you discover that you worked well together, there was a chemistry between you?

When we got married(!) We realised then.

Yes! No, you don't realise you've got a chemistry.

You just want suddenly to do this act, do this double act and develop.

We lean on each other a lot. That's the thing.

-He's asking some funny questions.

-You're not giving him any funny answers!

-It's difficult to answer.

Digging deep, I don't know.

Of all comedy acts, you two seem to be the most equally balanced

-in the sense that no-one's a stooge, you contribute equally to...

-Yeah.

-We didn't used to be, though.

-No.

-No, we patterned ourselves on the original type of double act - straight man...

-Abbott and Costello?

-Yes.

-Laurel and Hardy.

-Although Laurel and Hardy weren't particularly straight man and comic.

But we gradually evolved this two-man personality situation.

How dependent are you on the audience? If you get an immediate response from an audience,

do you feel that the act picks up speed and starts to work?

-Oh, yeah.

-Yes.

-We're 90% dependent on an audience.

They say a comedian is only as good as his audience.

If the audience is in the right frame of mind and it all gels, it's marvellous.

Isn't this a problem when you make films? You've got no audience, apart from studio hands who have seen...

-Who have seen everything.

-And we never give them a complete show.

-We only do a minute at a time.

-So you don't know until you see the rushes...

-We don't go to rushes any more. We're frightened of them.

-They petrify you.

-Even then, you can't tell in rushes.

You can't tell. We can't.

When do you know that it's worked? When the film is premiered...

-When the cheque comes!

-..and you hear the laughter?

I don't know. I can't sit and watch the films either.

You get sensitive in that direction. I am.

-I see myself blown up there on that screen...

-Which you should be!

And I get nervous.

If you hadn't been comedians, what would you have liked to be?

Mike and Bernie Winters.

Very cruel. I shouldn't have said that. I do apologise.

No, I'd like to have been... I like cricket.

If I hadn't gone into show business, I'd have been an engine driver.

-His father worked on the railway.

-Yes.

-I would've been a labourer for the Corporation of Morecambe.

-As my father was.

-So we've a lot to thank show business for.

Now, all your family worked in the circus,

so presumably your childhood from the start was spent travelling?

Yes, my father was a clown and trapeze worker.

So did he set out to make you a clown?

Now, you see, you can't make a clown. A clown has to be born.

He made out for me to become a trapeze act.

And you started learning that sort of thing at what age?

When I was seven years of age, I started it -

to get my strength in the hands, to lift my body up on the trapeze, you know, the usual way.

But my mind was different. I wanted to become a clown.

-Have you found that the children's attitude to you as a clown, has it changed through the years?

-Oh, yes.

-In what way?

-I'm very pleased that you brought that subject up.

In the olden days, when I was a clown, when I used to go in the ring...

Before I used to go in the ring, I used to put my head through the curtains and my hairs stood on end.

The children used to laugh like anything.

But now, they don't.

Yeah, they've got a smile on their face, but you have to do something these days to make them laugh.

-You have to do more...

-Yeah.

-..or just do it differently?

They're more educated, you see.

For instance, there are morning shows for children at cinemas

and television puts out such enormous programmes, so it's not a novelty for them.

Not like in the olden days.

You had a sort of restless childhood, didn't you? You left home when you were 14, wasn't it?

Well, first, when I was six, then when I was 11, then when I was 14.

Rather seriously when I was 14.

And finally, when I was 16 and I went to California.

But why? I mean, you dropped out of school?

Suddenly, I'd come home and there wasn't a place for me at the table, so it was time to split, wasn't it?

LAUGHTER

-I got the message after...

-They sold your bed?

-Right, yeah.

-What did you do in those days? Were you just hoboing on the road?

Hmm, yeah. Just knocking at the back door, asking the kind lady if she had a piece of bread, you know.

Never offering to mow the lawn, just dealing with the kind lady.

But why? Why was that? What were you doing at the time?

What was the purpose behind it?

Well, nothing really. Just keep moving.

There was no purpose.

-At one point in your career, you were a fighter, a boxer?

-No.

-Good.

LAUGHTER

No, all this came from being run over by a truck.

Was it a big truck or a small truck?

-No, you were, weren't you?

-Big enough to hurt. ..No, not really, no.

No. LAUGHTER

-Do people ever take swings at you?

-All the time.

-Yeah?

-Not since that last one, though.

-What was the last one?

-A very good one.

It was a low shot.

When was the last time that someone took a swing at you?

-I really can't remember. No, it doesn't happen.

-Never happened at all?

I'd like to accommodate you. I could invent something probably, you know?

But you're falling back on all that flak fat that talks about that...

..which is either true or not true

or true with reservations or untrue.

One time, my wife and I were in a restaurant in Colorado.

A fella came over with a piece of soiled toilet tissue

and threw it right down on top of my steak and said, "Sign that."

I said, "Of course," and picked up my fork and ran it up through his chin into his upper palate, bent it over.

I ripped his pocket out and gave him the tab and said, "Take him to the hospital.

"There's been a dreadful accident."

LAUGHTER

-That's a good story. I enjoyed that.

-A true story.

-I don't believe it.

My wife is there somewhere. She'll tell you.

Did you always want to be a movie star?

No, I wanted to be Queen(!) LAUGHTER

No, I didn't. It never occurred to me.

I couldn't make it. I couldn't make the weight.

You have sons also, don't you, who are carrying on in the...?

-Looking for jobs.

-Looking for jobs, yeah.

Was there any advice you gave them when they became actors?

Just to remember your lines and don't write home for money.

LAUGHTER

-That's all they need to know.

-Neither of which they took to heart.

No, you know, they do as they will. It's their lives, isn't it?

They could have been burglars or something.

I just told them that. "Whatever you do, don't get caught at it."

No-one's ever caught me acting.

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

I thought I was fairly attractive until I got to Hollywood.

I didn't for very long.

-But you did have to fight off all their attempts to glamorise you in their terms?

-Oh, yes.

Hepburn, Margaret Sullavan and I were the three who really fought it.

You know, fought the...

Although when I went to Warners, they made me really bleach my hair.

I knew it was going to limit me with parts, so I snuck down one day

and had it put back to the ash-blonde hair I'd always had.

One year later, Mr Warner sent for me and said, "You've had your hair re-dyed."

One year later. He'd never seen it!

But if I'd gone for permission, he wouldn't have allowed it.

I didn't want to go through life with a bleached head of hair.

They even suggested changing your name, didn't they?

Yes, they wanted to call me Bettina Dawes.

LAUGHTER

And to be a little vulgar in this illustrious group,

I said, "I refuse to be called Between The Drawers all my life!"

APPLAUSE Which I would have.

You said the most remarkable thing in your book, which bewildered me, but it sounds very splendid.

-"An actor is always less than a man."

-This is an old French saying.

-"An actress more than a woman."

Yes, it's a very old French saying.

Do you agree with that?

LAUGHTER

I have to be very honest. I don't think you can make generalities.

I think there are very many exceptions.

Certainly that beautiful man Claude Rains and that beautiful man Mr Tracy

and Mr Cooper and Mr Gable certainly were not less than men.

But it's a strange profession for a man, truthfully.

Steve McQueen, for instance, does all this motorcycling to keep sure he's a man.

LAUGHTER He told me that!

APPLAUSE

No, because he's the most marvellous guy, Steve McQueen. He's just great.

He told me one night. I said, "Why did you take a chance?

"You're one of the few smashing young men that have come along and we need you desperately."

He said, "Because it's a strange profession for a man."

Sammy Davis, from what I can make out, the most important thing that's happened to you so far

was a car accident about 12 years ago

because I gather from your book Yes, I Can that this changed your life and changed your personality.

What kind of person were you before the accident?

I think that before the accident I was the type of person that most people think I am now.

By that, I mean the other image, the performer.

Because sometimes they lose sight of both people.

They merge at one time and because you're on stage and you're singing and you're dancing

or they see you in a club where I don't believe everyone should see a show

without applauding and laughing and having a gay time.

If you want to sulk, stay at home.

They sometimes confuse those two.

What I meant in the book was that in those days, it was the days of really a Nick Romano sort of thing.

You know, "Live fast, die young and have a good-looking corpse."

That was the sense of values. There was nothing else... I had nothing else, except that.

There are harrowing passages in this autobiography of yours.

I'm thinking of the time you spent in the army when you were constantly beaten up

and afterwards, when you were a performer, but were turned away from clubs and hotels,

these countless indignations that were heaped upon you.

Nowadays, when you're accepted by the same people who would have once turned you away from their door,

don't you feel some contempt for them as you perform

and see these same faces applauding you now?

No, it was...

I think that I...because I had so much contempt thrown at me,

so much hatred thrown at me, I've got no...

I've really awakened to the point where I've really got no time to hate that vehemently back.

I can't, you know?

I'll get upset, I'll think it's ironic,

but I cannot sit and stew because it's unimportant, really.

If you waste your time and your energy...

I've come to realise that the people who hate, the bigots,

gee, if they could concentrate a half of that time on discovering a cure for cancer,

we would have had it discovered 20 years ago.

But they spend... And it becomes... HE PANTS

..like this with them, and it's frightening the world over.

I don't want to add to that. That's one group I do not want to belong to.

Once after an unfortunate demonstration by some of Oswald Mosley's supporters,

you turned the incident into a piece of comedy in your show.

Is this how you sort of purge yourself of hurt?

Well, actually, no, really.

What you do is you get it out.

-Mm-hm.

-It's like you get it out of your system.

The hurt is still there.

Every time someone is called "a nigger", it hurts.

And you can't deny it hurts.

But you cannot lay on it.

Finally, Sammy Davis, to the outsider, anyway,

the last few years of your life and career have been champagne and roses.

Have you any regrets?

No, I don't think so.

There are some things that I have done,

a few things that I may have said that I wish I had better timing on.

But by and large, I would say that it's been a good life, you know?

And which...

I guess in summation...

Frank says when he was 17, it was a very good year.

Well, the past few years have been all good years for me

and I hope they continue to be.

-Sammy Davis, thank you very much.

-Thank you.

-How long did that phase last?

-Really not very long.

I decided I couldn't possibly stand it

and also I was very susceptible to it.

I fell in love with somebody who was totally poor,

but really a gas and I realised it didn't mean a thing.

And then we got married.

When you got married, you were at university?

No, I never made it to university. I left in my first year of sixth form, you see.

And, um... I started work,

which may have been a good thing or a bad thing, but now I think is a very good thing

because I don't really believe in other people telling you what the scene is.

I think it's really important that you find out for yourself.

People can tell you that marriage is not really a very good thing.

I really knew because I knew about my parents,

but I wanted to find out if it was possible to live in that way that they say is the best way to live.

But when you got married, you were clearly, positively taking a gamble, were you?

No, I was definitely in love, quite definitely in love.

I really wanted to make it and I thought it was possible to do that, but it isn't.

Before you get married, you don't understand what the person is like until afterwards.

-What did you learn about marriage?

-SHE LAUGHS

Oh, it just doesn't...

It just isn't the scene for me, you know?

I mean, it's going against almost all I think to even talk about it like this,

so that they all can see what I'm saying

because it's something you've got to work out for yourself.

For some people, marriage may be very groovy.

For me, it really isn't. I don't think it is for very many people.

I think most people are not very happy. Some people are.

Now, after marriage, you were still seeking something or other, perhaps you weren't quite sure what.

What other things did you try, as it were? Drugs?

Um...yeah.

I never wanted to talk about drugs in public

because I don't want to influence anybody in anything,

but if you ask me, I guess I have to say that, of course, I took drugs, like everyone.

But not because of everyone.

-These things...

-But they weren't the answer either, were they?

No, but you see, if they, drugs...

Huxley wrote these two books. He wrote Heaven And Hell and Doors Of Perception.

Of the two, people have taken Heaven And Hell as the symbol.

And they've taken the wrong one

because the really explicit phrase is "doors of perception".

And that is what drugs are. They are the doors.

They're not anywhere. You don't go anywhere.

You just see a crack like I'm looking at you now.

You see a crack. And if these...

I don't know about marijuana. I think that's perfectly safe, actually.

It's an old sort of scene.

And it doesn't really hurt you.

It's not groovy to take it because it's not groovy to take anything.

We should be able to be in a state where we don't need cigarettes or drink

or anything like that or marijuana,

but something like LSD, if it wasn't meant to happen, it wouldn't have been invented...somehow.

I think it was important. I know so many people that, before they took LSD, were such a drag.

They took LSD and they really opened up,

then of their own accord, they stopped.

-Nearly everybody has stopped taking LSD now.

-You've stopped?

-Yeah.

-You're not happy about growing old, but what about dying? Do you fear death?

-No, I love death.

But that's another thing again, I mean...

You know, like there's...

It's two things. It's...

It's very important to stay in the world and do things,

but on the other hand, death and dreams are another thing.

That's what I'd really like to do - just go off there.

-Off where?

-Into death.

But you can't do that. It's very wrong to make your own death.

Your death is when you get it.

But it...

I think it's a beautiful thing, death.

It's such a relief. I mean, just imagine if there wasn't any death! Phew!

'The whole world has been excited at the reappearance of Hitler's personal attendant

'after ten years as a prisoner in Russian hands.

'Just arrived in England and in the In Town Tonight studio now

'is the man who was with Hitler to the end -

'42-year-old Heinz Linge.'

You were with Hitler when he died, Herr Linge?

I was the last to say goodbye to him

and the first to see the body.

He and Eva Braun died alone.

Did he give you any last orders?

Yes, to destroy his personal possessions and burn his body.

-Did you carry them out?

-Yes.

I used petrol,

but there was a sole flash.

They were not completely burned.

Where do you think Hitler's body is now?

Buried in the park of the Chancellery.

The Russians have never found Hitler's body.

I know that because they never...

They questioned me repeatedly about it.

You think it's still there?

Yes, buried in a common grave.

I know that Goebbels died there in Berlin too. Why didn't Goering?

I think Goering was hanging on to life as long as he could.

Herr Linge, from your own point of view, was Hitler a good man to work for?

I must say I wouldn't have a better master.

Were you with him all the time?

I was with him always

and when he went out, I used to drive in the same car with him,

wearing civilian clothes,

if he has...or in uniform, if he was in uniform.

Did you ever have any time off?

Not much. Perhaps three or four weeks in the ten years I was with him.

-How did you spend it?

-With my wife and family.

Herr Linge, was Hitler really interested in astrology?

-No. When he was in power, never.

-That's one story about him which is apparently incorrect.

-What about those rages of his?

-He used to get in rages, but they were not uncontrolled rages.

He never bit the carpet.

-Did he have doubles?

-No, I see... I haven't seen anyone who looked like him.

Why didn't Hitler invade England?

Oh, there are many reasons, but I think he thought England would surrender.

Now that you're here yourself, is there anything you want to do?

I have done it. I went to stand on the cliffs at Dover

-where I know Hitler would have liked to stand.

-Yes, I'm sure he would.

What are your plans now?

At the present time, I am writing my story,

which is now being published by the News of the World.

What kind of background did you come from? Was it a showbiz background?

No, my father was a druggist and he was in poor health.

We moved out to California, as a matter of fact, WAY out in California to the Mojave Desert.

And I used to have to ride to school on a horse

and it gave me a little background for what I finally got into.

When did you change your name, John, from Michael Marion Morrison?

Well, the studio figured that Marion was not exactly... LAUGHTER

..a proper name for an American hero. I forgot about Frances Marion, I guess.

And Duke, they said, sounded a little too vulgar.

It wouldn't be over here, but for some reason over there...

And, eh, so they came up with John Wayne.

-Not a bad name for a film star, is it?

-It's worked all right for me.

Can I talk to you now about another much publicised aspect of your life, the political views you hold?

I'd like to particularly ask you as well, because it's related to the film industry, about that period

when you were to the forefront of the people who were blacklisting the alleged Communist members...

Well, that's not a true statement.

-Well...

-We were not blacklisting.

-You were...

-They were blacklisting. We didn't name anybody.

We stayed completely out of it and said, "We are Americans."

Anybody that wanted to join us, that was fine.

-We gave no names out to anybody at any time ever.

-But are you...

When you look back at that now, John, are you proud of what happened in Hollywood?

I think it was probably a very necessary thing at the time

because...

the radical liberals were going to take over our business.

-The people who got kicked out of Hollywood...

-Who were kicked out? Wait a minute. Who?

-People who left.

-Let's take, for example, Carl Foreman.

-Yeah.

-Dalton Trumbo.

-Carl Foreman, Dalton Trumbo.

-Look what happened to Larry Parks.

-About... Larry Parks admitted that he'd been a Commie

-and he went on working.

-Well, he didn't work for some time.

-He hadn't worked a hell of a lot before that, had he?

-Well, no...

-No.

But these aren't people, surely, who you would expect to take over the industry?

Well, at the time it seemed rather serious and...

they were getting themselves into a position where they could control who would do the writing.

Would you regard yourself as being passionately anti-Communist

-in the sense that America ought to protect any society that looked like having a Communist government?

-No.

I'm a realistic anti-Communist and I think I had some experience

with Communists in our own industry when they attempted to take it over some years ago.

It isn't a case of just going out borrowing trouble. Any country that wants a Communist government

should be permitted to have it, but this is a global conflict

and the enemy is there and we are the target of that enemy.

And I think we have to do what is necessary to oppose their aggression,

to prove to them that aggression does not pay. If they succeed and it pays off in South Vietnam,

then the next step will be some place closer or more difficult

and they will try to make aggression pay again.

In Watts and Oakland one hears a great deal about police brutality.

There's a gathering feeling against white people. Can you do anything?

Of course that feeling is there,

but I think we can do something about it. But it's a two-way street

with people talking to each other instead of about each other. I don't believe police brutality stories.

Right here in Los Angeles is one of the finest law enforcement bodies in the world and they've worked hard

on this particular subject.

I think that this cry has been brought up

and has been made a kind of a belief by some people who have an axe to grind,

who don't want to settle the problem, but to create one.

-Would you like to be President?

-Oh, for heaven's sakes.

The minute you run for any office, you must first say, "I don't want to be President of the United States!"

-I just want to be Governor of California.

-If people wanted you, would the prospect appall you?

Yes, I think it would appall anyone.

I think it is... It is an awesome responsibility.

Today, hardly more than a score of women MPs sit in parliament,

although life there is pleasanter for them than when Lady Astor, the first woman MP, took her seat.

-Did you try to exploit the fact that you were a woman?

-For heaven's sakes, no! That was so obvious.

No, that was so obvious, but I really felt - and this is important -

women had died for the vote. Mrs Pankhurst and that woman who threw herself...

And I realised that I was there because of what they had done

and that gave me great courage and a great feeling of dedication to the woman's cause.

How long did the prejudice against you and other women MPs go on?

I think it's still going on, but I'm not certain.

There aren't too many women MPs even today after all those years.

Do you think, looking back, that it's been worth it, this struggle? What has the woman's vote done?

-Well, I'd like to give you a figure. I'll just read it to you because you've got to know.

-Please do.

"In the 12 years before women's suffrage, only four Acts were passed directly concerning women.

"Small increases in property rights, training of midwives, qualifications for county councils

"and affiliation orders for wives.

"In 12 years after, there were 28 Acts passed." I won't read them.

That's magnificent, yes. But apart from all that, do you think,

apart from your own very distinguished, exceptional career,

do you think looking back that women are as suited mentally to public life as men?

In many ways they're more suited because they're not so easy...

They're not so easily flattered as men are.

I guarantee any woman can get any man if she's got enough flattery.

A lot of men say women are emotionally rather unstable and their judgment is subjective.

I don't believe one word of that. You can get any man and I'll tell you how.

"Tell me more about yourself." And off they go.

-What do you think of the future of women in politics?

-It's as good as the future of men.

-I've got great theories about women.

-Ah, let's hear them.

Women should have lots of opinions, but not be allowed to express them.

I always say, "Look, you're very beautiful, but I don't want you to speak. Just nod your head."

I remember once asking this beautiful woman, BEAUTIFUL woman, a very important question.

She nodded her head so fast she almost dislocated her neck.

And the next morning, they wake up and she says, "Good morning! It's wonderful..."

And you say, "It's finished. You shouldn't have spoken. You ruined it."

I don't like actors very much. The only actor who'd come into my house is Connery. I like Sean.

I don't like them very much. The usual cliche - they speak about nothing else but themselves.

-What have I been doing all night?!

-But you've been asked to.

-Yeah.

Actors say - it's an old cliche, but true - "Let's not talk about me. What did YOU think of my movie?"

LAUGHTER

Can we talk now about the people you've worked with in the film industry?

You've had a reputation of occasionally not getting on, to put it mildly,

-with people you've worked with.

-Putting it very mildly.

The first thing I found was with Brando on Mutiny On The Bounty. You didn't seem to get on at all.

No, I didn't. Brando and I, he was the star of the movie. It was before I did Sporting Life.

The only thing that worried me about him was he doesn't turn up.

I'll tell you something interesting. In all this business about Marlon, I think he's a fantastic actor.

One of the greatest actors of all time. His facility was so powerful.

He had all the facilities of almost everything, probably except comedy.

I don't think he was a good comic, but everything else, marvellous.

But how he developed things was extraordinary. Marlon's style

is very interesting for those interested in movies.

Marlon developed a style of acting because in some strange way he either didn't want to,

everything must be real,

or he actually couldn't remember. He couldn't remember lines. He didn't want to or couldn't.

He'd do a scene with you and that's the camera there, here.

He'd have beside the camera a big board and the lines on the board.

You see? That's how he developed that terrific, Brandonian look.

He's talking to you in a scene and suddenly he'll do this... LAUGHTER

Right? That's because he's looking at the lines! He's reading the lines! Do you remember once...

It's true, I promise. And I'd have thought that one time, he was doing Julius Caesar.

There's one marvellous part where this happens.

He's there, standing up in his toga and he's doing, he says,

"Oh, mighty Caesar, dost thou lie so low?

"Or do all thy glories, triumphs, spoils shrunk to this little measure?"

Er...

Er... LAUGHTER

Now I know, sure as hell, Shakespeare never wrote, "Er..."!

So then it happens and he goes, "Er..." and then you see it happen.

"I know not, gentlemen, what you intend..." He's reading it out!

-People have said so many things about you.

-Yes, haven't they?

-You are known as the rudest man in Britain.

-That's not fair. I'm not as rude as all that.

-BBC's teddy bear - rough outside, warm-hearted within?

-Too grizzly and too kind.

-A telly phony.

Yes, I'll accept that. It was said by someone. A radio telly phony.

You know, let's have the full business. There's something phony about me, I suppose,

because I have no particular talent.

What your talent for words brought you was success at Cambridge.

Cambridge, yes. Well, I got a scholarship. That was phony, too.

A much cleverer boy than I ought to have had it

and at Cambridge I suppose I enjoyed showing off.

But Cambridge in your day didn't admit women fully to the university.

Ah, no, it did not. That's why I was so happy. In my day we had Newnham and Girton, women's colleges.

And they were contributive, decorative, intelligent, remote and unassertive!

And now they're members of the university, they wear gowns and caps designed for men

and they've ruined the place, as they ruined your university, too.

There's one personality of this house that we haven't met yet and that's Shampoo, your dog.

We've been hearing a lot about him. I've never heard such a noise.

They're bringing him to me now, yes. We can't rely on Shampoo to behave properly, you see.

He's been to the barber, he's been washed and looks very splendid.

And he's rather cross about so many people being about whose trousers he can't bite or shoelaces undo.

-He's a nuisance, this dog, really.

-Does he come across to visitors?

-Well, he might. We'll see.

-Do you want him?

-I'd like to make his acquaintance.

-I never let him lick me.

-He's certainly done it to me!

Shampoo, is he what is known technically as a good dog?

-Do you mean a good dog, a well-bred dog?

-A well-bred dog.

Oh, he's a well-bred dog, but a badly-behaved dog. He's independent.

-Would you prefer him to be independent?

-I think he regards me as his gross inferior.

He's probably right. He's well-read in Chinese history. He's a little bored at the moment.

He thinks about Mao Tse-Tung and Chiang Kai-sheck and Formosa.

Gilbert, you are very nicely placed here. It's a charming house.

In spite of the fact that you now have to go into hospital, for a brief moment we hope...

-It's a long time.

-The future surely must be better than the phrase you once wrote.

-Remember your definition of the future?

-I said I wish the future were over.

-Yes.

-Well, of course.

The one cheerful thing about living is that every day one lives, you know it's one less.

But, Gilbert, you're a man of faith.

I have faith, yes, but not regular practice.

But, you know, one gets a little tired of things, en general.

Even this dog, even this bow-wow, you get tired of.

But I'm not over-tired. I just feel life is only worth living if one has friends.

First, your appearance, which everybody knows. Why did you devise your very personal style of clothes?

Well, because I can't wear fashionable clothes.

You see, I'm a throwback to remote ancestors of mine

and I really would look so extraordinary if I wore coats and skirts.

People would doubt the existence of the Almighty if they saw me looking like that.

-I want to take you back to your childhood. Is it true that you had an unhappy childhood?

-Extremely.

-Why? Because you were a girl?

-Partly. And also because

my father and mother married without knowing anything about life at all.

They were quite young. My mother was 17 and, poor thing, she didn't know anything about life.

She was just made to marry my father.

And they just didn't understand the first thing about each other.

-What sort of woman was she?

-She was very beautiful.

She had the most terrible rages,

which... Oh, well, I've forgiven her so long ago.

-And what about your father? He was a notable eccentric.

-Oh, a wild eccentric.

When I was a child, I was fond of him,

only between the ages of 13 and 17 because he was then kind to me.

But then he suddenly turned round on me. I've never found out why.

Did you realise as a small child how eccentric he was?

I hardly saw him.

-His eccentricity didn't embarrass you?

-No. I saw far too much of my mother.

-What was it about her?

-Well, of course, I was a changeling, you see.

-She treated you as if you were?

Well, when I was born, she would have liked to turn me into a doll.

And it was a great disappointment, of course, that I was not a boy.

If I'd been Chinese, I should have been exposed on the mountains with my feet bound.

Now I want to change the subject and ask something quite different.

There was one episode in your career which puzzled a lot of people.

Why did you decide to go to Hollywood and work in that machine?

Well, I was not working in poetry at the moment and I needed to earn money.

Did Hollywood either succeed in or even seek to lower your standards?

-Oh, not for a moment.

-How did you ward them off? They have corrupted a great many people.

-I didn't have to.

I only saw people whose behaviour was impeccable, who were highly educated

-and the sort of people I would know in England.

-Is the story of your affection for, or whatever it was,

Marilyn Monroe just a press story or is it true? Did it really happen?

I'll tell you what happened exactly.

You see, she was brought to see me in Hollywood and I thought her a very nice girl.

I thought that she had been disgracefully treated,

most unchivalrously treated.

If people have never been poor,

perhaps they don't know what it is like to be hungry.

That girl allowed a calendar to be made of her, you see.

-Well, there have been nude...

-Models.

..models before now.

It means nothing against a person's moral character at all.

This poor girl was absolutely persecuted by people.

She has, or had, an unfortunate attraction for an extremely unpleasant kind of man,

whom she avoided assiduously. I have seen her do that.

I really did. She behaved like a lady.

And has she shown pleasure and gratitude for the kindness you showed to her?

Indeed. When she and her husband, for whom I have very great admiration, came to London,

they were asked who they wanted to see and I was one of the first.

And they came, but of course we couldn't talk. Every kind of person was hanging about outside

and going and telling lies afterwards, but I saw them again alone in New York

and we had the most delightful talk. I hope one day to see them again.

Do you, in fact, find it very easy to make close personal friendships?

Yes. When I die, I will be able to say that I think that I've had...

that I've given more devotion and had more devotion

than most people I know.

To transfer for one second to an actress now

unfortunately no longer with us, but one of my idols, Marilyn Monroe.

Ah, the most wonderful, darling eccentric you could ever meet.

She was a wonderful, wonderful woman and a very, very great artist.

-I adored her. Marvellous.

-The legend is still with us, isn't it?

There will never be anyone like her. She was most extraordinary because I'd admired her, of course,

and when I went to work with her I wondered how much was direction.

And 100% was her.

And George Cukor, who was a very bright, clever director,

with a reputation for handling leading ladies, he let her

do it entirely her own way. Marvellous woman.

She was not a very regular attendant.

-You mean she was late?

-She used to sometimes be a fortnight late, yes.

LAUGHTER

In terms of soccer, what have been the couple of offers?

Just a couple of inquiries, whether I was available to go back into football management.

Not in the First Division. One in the Second and one in the Third.

Would you go back to anything other than the First Division?

It's not a case of going back into... Or making set things, the First or Second.

I just wouldn't go back into football at this present time.

The last time I was employed, I rather got my fingers burnt.

I walked around like that for weeks!

I wasn't there very long at Leeds and the sack really hit me right between the eyes.

How did it happen? How did someone who employed you 40-odd days earlier give you the sack?

It's very special, the men with the ability to do that type of thing.

Because 44 days ago, before I got the sack, they were saying they hoped I was there for life.

Then they're saying, "I'm not sure we made the right decision."

And I said, "I'm absolutely certain I made the wrong decision with you bloody lot."

And it went on those type of lines.

Should you have known it would never work or could you have made it work?

I could have made it work with time.

Obviously, it's inevitable I made a few mistakes during the 44 days.

-What sort of mistakes?

-Perhaps I didn't give them chance enough to get over the guy there before me.

He was there for a long, long time.

Perhaps I wanted to...get with them the same feeling they had with him.

I'm loath to mention him, you know, and if we can refrain from doing it, we'll do so.

-You hate to mention him why?

-Because he's a very talented man and I don't like him.

LAUGHTER

-That's...

-Don't ask me why. That's exactly what it is.

He's a very talented man and his record is unsurpassable,

but I don't happen to like him and the way he goes about football.

-Football is a game of opinion. There are people in your profession who don't like you.

-For sure.

And it makes the game go round. Half the country don't like a Labour government, but the other half do.

-Why don't you want me to ask why you don't like him?

-Because I can't tell you. It's impossible.

We'd get closed down, David. LAUGHTER

I'm not one to envy people

because I've always had reasonable things going for me.

People envy things they can't get.

I've never felt envy in my life. I haven't been jealous of many people.

I've been very fortunate there, but I do feel envy when this particular man has got this particular job.

And this is the thing I've got to dismiss from my mind. Very important. Envy crucifies you.

-Jealousy? Blow me.

-A really destructive emotion.

-It's murder.

If you spend any time in your day being jealous... The guys that give you stick or will continue to,

it's 90% jealousy. And they must be right bums.

-Jealousy certainly is a very destructive emotion.

-Oh, it must be terrible.

Who's the sportsman and politician you admire? What sort of people?

Politicians? Well, we're off politicians a bit at the moment. I personally am.

I was stars in the sky about politicians, but they keep failing.

And the remarkable part about it is I canvass for my local MP,

who I happen to believe is a very sincere man and a good MP,

but I look at politicians broadly and they come back to us, having made such a mess of it,

and say, "Put us back there again". I find this incredible.

It's an aspect of political life. they have the gall to knock on your door and tell us we're in trouble,

problems, we all have to pull our belts in, and I've paid them

or I have contributed for them to work to put it right.

We paid their wages and they make such a mess of it and ask to do it all again.

You've got to be as thick as... to do that, or a very talented man.

I read a quote by Bill Nicholson and he also told me personally

that when his daughter was getting married in a church, he stood there

and thought, "Where have the 18 or 19 or 20 years gone that she was a little baby?"

And he'd missed out completely on that particular aspect of his life.

I will never, ever, ever allow that to happen to me

because that is total failure as a human being, not a manager.

-When you die and someone writes your epitaph, what would you like them to say?

-Oh, no.

I've never, ever given it a thought about dying. It frightens me.

It frightens me to think that I'll ever get to the stage where I will contemplate dying.

They tell me it happens to us all,

but I've not quite got into that bracket yet where I think about it.

When they write it, I don't want anyone to write anything.

I just want a couple of people round there when I die.

Is fear an emotion which you are conscious of greatly?

Yes, I think fear of... fear of illness

and fear of... physical loss of mobility,

fear of failure. Yes, I'm full of fears.

-Now was your mother, who is still alive...

-She's not. She's dead.

-I beg your pardon.

Was your mother a... a refuge from stern discipline?

Yes, she was always a sort of comforting and, on the whole,

rather over-ready source of assuagement

and there was always a sort of bosom to cry on.

Is there any truth in the notion I have in the back of my mind

that it is this particularly deep relation that you had with your mother

-which has made it impossible so far for you to marry?

-Yes, I think so.

You see, my sister didn't marry and I didn't marry

and my mother was a widow just when she was 30.

So when we came to live together, we put up a cloud of sexual frustration that could blot out the sun.

And I've never been particularly affectionate.

I'm... One of my troubles is that I don't attract affection very much

and when I do I tend to repel it.

-I'm not a sort of intimate or cosy person.

-Do you like living in close contact with anybody else,

-of either sex, or do you prefer your own...?

-No, I don't like living in close contact with anybody.

I like to think it's because I've realised I'm almost unfit to live with,

but that's probably giving myself the benefit of thinking I'm largely unselfish.

-I think I'm pretty difficult to live with.

-Are you lonely as a result?

-Profoundly lonely, yes.

-If you could have worked this out, this would have been a great thing.

-Yes. I'm very envious of people,

especially people who have children, but it's better that I didn't marry.

-Have you ever been with a person dying?

-Yes, only once.

Do you remember that?

Someone very close to you?

-Did it make a vivid impression?

-VOICE BREAKING: It did, yes.

-Is that the only time you've seen a person dead?

-Only once, yes.

-Are you afraid ever of death?

-I'm not afraid of death. I'm afraid of dying.

I shall be very glad to be dead, but I don't look forward to the process.

You've been, as it's been announced in the newspapers, seriously, even gravely ill once or twice.

-Have you ever thought that perhaps you were going to die?

-No.

When one's very ill, one doesn't think of that. Afterwards, when people tell you how ill you've been,

in my case at least I feel, "Why on earth did they bother?" It would be better to let me go.

And that, of course, is very mean. I should feel very grateful.

But you are not bothered at the thought of being dead, if you could get over the hurdle of dying.

I would much rather be dead than alive, if I hadn't got to go through the miseries of actually dying.

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