Episode 3 Talk at the BBC

I always think that, the highlight of your amusing and exciting life

was that time you frightened

half of the United States out of their wits, back in the 1930s

with your tremendous broadcast pretending that Mars was invading the world.

What do you mean pretending? Really!

Haven't you heard about the flying saucer?

Indeed. Do you look back on that with a certain amount of pleasure?

Well, I look back on it with a certain amount of wonder,

because we never imagined, when we did the show,

that as many people would be as excited as they were.

We thought a few people on the lunatic fringe

might be vaguely disturbed by these rumours, which were broadcast,

but turned out to be...

-More people on the fringe that you thought.

-Well, I don't think so.

I don't think it was.

I think we underrated the...the prestige of radio, at that moment.

Anything that was said on the radio was automatically true.

After that nobody ever believed anything on the radio.

And on Pearl Harbour, the day of Pearl Harbour in America,

I was doing a broadcast, which was interrupted,

with the announcement that Pearl Harbour had been attacked.

And everybody in America said, "It's rather bad taste to do it again."

Do you have any qualms about that?

This muckraking and going over an old scandal

that should be dead and buried by now?

No, no. Certainly not.

And it shouldn't be dead and buried, either.

It's unfortunate,

I think for Mr Profumo, but we can...

It's not all about him, by any means,

it's about the girl, and the story of this girl,

which is not an uninteresting story, at all.

We can forgive Mr Profumo.

We can do what we can to see that he's rehabilitated,

because he has tried very hard.

By all means, forgive the individual, but you can't forget it.

You see, what worries people is,

I think there was a comment of yours on this.

And it may be inaccurate, but it was a quote that you said,

people can sneer as much as they like,

but I'll take the 150,000 copies we're going to sell.

I believe you're now going to sell...

printing at 200,000.

It suggests that you are, in fact,

lining your pocket with rather sleazy material.

Well, I don't agree it's sleazy, for a minute.

Nor do I agree that it's unfair

to the man, or anything else.

I have the greatest sympathy with him.

But, it doesn't alter the fact that

everybody knows what happened.

Certainly, it's going to sell newspapers, so there will be other

stories we'll put in which will sell newspapers, so...

We're not ashamed of that.

It seems to me that it's very tempting for someone in your position,

with a new paper to start, to turn it into a salacious scandal sheet,

because there's absolutely no doubt that if it were that,

it would get a big circulation.

How do you resist the temptation?

Well, I doubt very much whether you are right,

that it would get a big circulation.

You might get one overnight, but it wouldn't stay with you,

and you wouldn't have the loyalty of your readers.

You wouldn't have people wanting it to go into their home regularly.

You might get people on the street corner buying it, quickly,

but you wouldn't hold the thing.

Depends what you call by spice and sex, and salaciousness,

and muckraking and so on,

so I...obviously we're not going to avoid the subject.

But, um...

it's not going to be a dirty paper.

I'm not a great sacker.

I'm a very bad sacker.

Um...

HE MUMBLES

Because there were two well-known cases in Australia of editors

whom I had given immense freedom to

and have made quite names for themselves,

they ended up making such names for themselves,

they were spending their time giving speeches everywhere instead of editing.

And we did come,

we did come to a stage of parting

with both of them.

I certainly didn't enjoy it.

People always say they don't enjoy it,

and I always have a suspicion that underneath it there is

a kind of pleasure in being powerful enough to sack someone,

just as the pleasure of being powerful enough to hire someone.

No, no.

First person I ever fired, I remember, you know,

I went and took him and walked him in the park.

I think I ended up in tears instead of him.

No, it's a horrible thing. Horrible thing!

Was there, I mean, it seems a daft question,

but was there, at all, a funny side to it, Eric?

What, the illness? Oh, well, in a way there was. You know...

we were working at this club in Batley, as two waiters.

And, um...

I've got a bit of a twinge in my arm and I have to say to Ernie,

I don't feel too good, I'll go home tonight and...

So, I signed the autograph.

You sign the autograph.

So...of course, his wife always asks.

And, funnily enough,

I didn't realise, fortunately,

it was a heart attack, you see?

Had I thought it was a heart attack,

I'd have had a heart attack and died.

Because I always thought a heart-attack was biya-bib-yab!

But it's just, you know, it's not like that at all. It's just...

SQUEAK

-And, um, I thought...

-It's like what?

And, I thought, "Well, I'd better put myself into a hospital," you know.

And I was driving the car, and it was getting worse.

So, maybe about 1.30 in the morning,

and I stopped a fella in Leeds, and I said,

"Could you...I don't feel very well,

"do you think you could..."

I had a Jensen in those days,

and I said, "Do you feel you could take me to a hospital?

"I don't feel very well. I'd like to sign myself into a hospital."

And a fellow called Walter Butterworth, I'll never forget him...

Wasn't his real name, but I'll never forget him.

He said, "Yes. Oh, aye."

"Hey, you're, er..."

"..Morton and White."

And I said, "Morecambe and Wise, yes."

So, he said, "Oh, well, I've never driven one of these.

"I'm in the territorials. I've only driven a tank."

This is true, this.

So, he gets in there, and there's 7,000 quid going, joy-wi-way!

Up the road.

And there's me going, hiyo-ho-yohi-yo!

I got to the stage where I couldn't have cared less, you know.

So, he takes me to a hospital, and it's locked.

It's true.

There are some French windows, and he's going... Bing-bing!

..on the French windows,

while I'm stood at the side of him going, like this.

Windows open, like that.

And a fellow there in braces and a pair of pants.

He goes, "You can't come in here."

I said... "Can't!"

So he opens a little crack, he says, "This isn't a proper hospital."

He says, "You want the main one up the road."

So, he explained where it was.

And he drove me there, did this Walter.

And, I got out the car and he ran around, it was up a brew,

you know, up a hill.

And he went in there

to try and get me some form of wheelchair, you know.

So, he's there, five minutes. I'm waiting.

So, I start to walk up this hill.

Quasimodo, going up there, you know.

And I go in there,

and he's obviously said to the fellow behind the counter,

"Eric Morecambe is out there and he's not very well. Could I have..."

And the fellow wouldn't let him have a chair, as far as I can make out.

So, I walked in. The fellow looked at me. he went, "Oh-ho-ho, yes!"

And he says to all the boils and the cuts

and the slashes in the corner, there, in the outpatients.

"Eh! 'Tis him!"

This is true! You know.

So, I said... My real name is Bartholomew,

I never tell anybody that, but my real name is Bartholomew.

So, he says, "You don't look too good, son."

I said, "No, I'd like to sign, put myself into a hospital, you see?"

He said, "Well, right.

"Now then."

"Name?"

So, I thought, "Well, I won't say Bartholomew, I'll say Morecambe."

He said, "Oh, aye.

"Address?" Which I gave. "Age?" Which I lied about.

He said, "You don't look too well.

"You better go and lie down on that thing."

So, I'm lying down on a stretcher bed.

The next thing I know I'm being injected.

This Walter Butterworth is sat with me.

And I say, "I'd like to say thank you very much for all your help,

"and everything." He said, "Oh, that's all right.

"It's been a pleasure." He says, "My mates won't believe this."

He says, and these are the exact words he uses, he says,

"Will you do us a favour?"

I said, "What?"

He says, "Before you go, will you sign?"

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

It's true, that.

When we got back from Dunkirk, I, for the first time, met Churchill

on the beaches of Brighton,

where we were, where my division was getting ready to repel invasion,

you see? Which they thought was coming.

Now, I didn't know then,

I'd been through all of Dunkirk campaign,

and before it, I didn't see, then, how we possibly could win this war.

Hitler's war.

Nor did he. We discussed it.

But by the time I'd spent the day with him,

I said, "We shall now win.

"We've got the man.

"It's the man that matters. And we've got the man and we shall win.

"But how we shall win, I'm not yet clear."

And, after that day with Churchill, he asked me to go

and have dinner with him that night,

in the Royal Beach Hotel before going back to London.

And it was at that dinner that he said to me,

"General, what would you drink?"

And I said, "Water."

He said, "Water?"

I said, "Yes.

"I don't drink, and I don't smoke.

"And I'm 100% fit."

And, like a flash, the old man said, "I drink and I smoke,

"and I'm 200% fit."

And I knew then we should win the war.

I've led a very abstemious life, you see?

I...I don't...

I don't drink.

I don't smoke.

And I've never been mixed up with women.

You were once married, come on, Field Marshal.

-I was married for 10 years.

-Yes, you were.

Only one woman in my life. Only one.

You were married late, weren't you? You were married when you were what?

-40.

-40. I hadn't time. I was studying my profession.

What about the young people?

Well, I don't mind the young people of today.

I mean, if they like to have long hair and miniskirts.

I remember the first time I saw a miniskirt in Farnham,

I turned around and looked at her.

I put my spectacles on and what is that? You see?

I think it's the way of expressing themselves,

and the fact that the boys wear long hair, let them wear long hair.

But I have a great belief in youth.

And I am quite convinced, myself,

that if this country, were ever in real danger again,

all these young people would turn out, just the same as ever,

I'm sure they would.

At heart, they're all right.

And they've got to express themselves, and, up-to-date,

they've not been allowed to.

Now, they demand that they must be allowed to. And that's all right.

I don't think they are very...

They are up against their politicians, you see?

Well, I, I don't blame them, sometimes, you see?

I think the politicians are the people who make war.

We don't make wars.

Politicians make wars.

And when they've got the whole thing into a first-class muck,

they call on the soldiers to un-muck it.

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Paul McCartney

Paul, it's great to have you here, and one thing, as we've been

rehearsing today, that I've been wondering, is whether, in fact,

you ever expected things to be as good for you as in fact they've been.

When you started as a group, did you expect things to go like this?

No, we used to, sort of, think of things in stages. Still do, I think.

When we first started off, you know, playing in the Cavern, and things,

I thought, first of all, let's get a record contract.

We all did.

We got a record contract and we said, let's get a number one hit.

Got one of them. You know?

-So I hear.

-It went on. We do it in stages so, we never thought.

But, after you got a number one hit, you hoped for another number one hit.

-Yeah.

-And then what?

Something like the Royal Variety Performance.

Something, sort of, big. Then, what came after that? America, I think.

-Which was marvellous, and after America?

-Film.

-Now, it's fairly close

to the film being as big a success as everything else, I should think.

Now, if it is in, sort of, a bit later this year, a big success,

what will be the next ambition, then?

I don't know. Another film, probably.

-You know.

-Then that will be a success, and what about after that?

Don't ask me, you know, I'm only doing it.

Have you got any ambitions, in fact, in other spheres completely?

I mean, do you want to be prime minister one day, that sort of thing?

No. I don't want to be, nothing like that, no. God! Retire.

When do you think you'll achieve that ambition, exactly?

The way things are going, in a couple of years or so.

-No idea.

-But, what, when people usually ask you,

what's the best thing about being one of the Beatles, at this stage,

what do you usually reply, the money, as the first quip,

but what, after that, is one of the good things?

Um, being able to do things that you enjoy doing, rather than,

if, you know, you get a bit of power

when you...you reach a certain stage where you get a bit of power,

in that you can say, suggest things that you want to do to people,

and we can turn around to Brian and say,

could we do such and such a thing.

Like a film, and he can say, "Well, I'll try and fix it, for you."

So, you know, and he does. He's good like that.

-Useful man to have about, actually.

-Oh, he's great.

Everybody, I imagine, says to you,

the pop world is very short lived and everything like that,

and what will you do when the phase passes.

Do you think the phase will pass?

Does it worry you?

No. I couldn't care less, really,

I don't think, if we flop tomorrow...

It'll be sad, you know, but it wouldn't really worry me.

-Could you go back to doing something else?

-Oh, I don't know.

I'd miss doing this. But I think I'd think of something else to do.

-Something I would like to do.

-What would you do?

Write songs, but for other people.

-I'd enjoy doing that.

-Anything completely different?

Completely different. Retire, you know. That's completely different.

Well, thank you very much,

it'll be a great pleasure to watch Paul McCartney in retirement,

but it'll probably be in the year 2010, I should think.

Kenneth and Maggie, can we talk a little bit now about showbiz,

about something that Sir John was talking about, earlier,

about the whole business of preservation, and this sort of thing.

Is it something that concerns you two?

I mean, are you, basically,

on Sir John's side on what he says about this?

I should think Maggie is and so am I, yes.

Things like the dreadfulness of the Elephant and Castle,

which used to be a place of humanity and warmth and people,

which is now just a concrete desert, and a mess and an absolute disgrace.

And what they've turned the Euston Centre into is the same thing.

-It's just a blight.

-Frightful.

First act of a government that calls itself socialist,

should be is to stop all that,

and say homes are the most important thing.

It makes me sick when I read all this crap about,

"Let's have a youth club.

"Let's have a theatre built, or let's have something else built."

No good, all that.

Cultural activities are no good if there is no home to go to, is there?

-Absolutely true.

-Must have a home. So, the first requisite is a home.

-And on the ground.

-Well, I was going to say.

-Precisely.

-Makes me very angry, that.

-Yes.

-Really makes me very angry.

Doesn't it you? To pass a great thing, a great skyscraper, empty?

-Right, absolutely.

-I think it's an absolute scandal.

Yet, they all get worked up about a couple of pound in their pay packet,

or something, and go on strike.

Why can't they have... If the unions really care,

if they're really socialistic and say we care

about our fellow man, why can't they force,

why can't they march about something like that?

Instead of another pound for themselves.

Why not a few pounds for somebody else who's really hard up?

But that's not the unions' problem.

I've got support, here.

But it's not the unions' fault, that condition...

What is the statue outside the TUC?

Have you looked at that statue?

The statue outside the TUC depicts a man helping, doesn't it?

He's helping up another man, who's on the ground.

And that statue symbolises what the TUC stands for, doesn't it?

Of course.

Right, well, when a union does something like jeopardising

the work of their fellow man, if you stop trains,

people can't get to their work, can they? Can they?

They can't get to work, even.

So, in doing what you want for yourself,

you're jeopardising your fellow men, aren't you?

-Yes.

-Well, why can't you act in concert with your fellow men?

Why do you have to do something which endangers

the livelihood of your fellow men?

When that statue represents exactly that. Helping.

Because it might be that the fellow, the one fellow,

take two workers,

that one fellow is a lot worse off than the other worker.

They're not all equal, are they?

I mean, if they were all equal, there'd be no problem.

Precisely, but it comes down to a question of morality.

You don't just work for another pound.

When I took my job at £3.10 a week, I assembled small parts,

I came out the army '47, that's what I got.

'47, £3.10 a week, my dig's worth at 25 bob, all in, and the rest,

I have the soap and the fags, you know.

And the young at heart picked a shove round the bend,

because I did my own cleaning.

But, I saved, and because I wanted to do a job,

and wanted to do it well, I got on, I got another rep fortnightly,

and after that I got a monthly rep, and I got a bit better.

I spent seven years in the provinces before I came to London.

I think if you're prepared to do that, what are you doing it for?

You're not saying, "I want another pound," all the time.

-You're saying I want to do the work better.

-Yes, but...

That's the kind of morality I was brought up with.

You don't do a job just for what you get,

you do the job because you want to do it well.

Kenneth, can I say, I think that's crap.

I mean, I'm sorry, I really...

I've never been so insulted.

You mustn't laugh.

-Don't take it to heart.

-Whose side are you on?

Mr Tomkins, how did you become

a tub-thumper, a soapbox orator,

whatever you'd like to call it?

Well, I was walking through Lincoln's Inn Fields, one day,

just after the War,

and I stood and listened to a Communist speaker,

who was speaking there.

And he was getting away with murder.

No-one seemed to question him or heckle him.

So, I thought it was high time someone started.

So, I started heckling him, and heckling other socialist speakers,

and then one day I decided I'd have a go myself.

It wasn't fair to heckle other people without having a go yourself,

so I started speaking, myself.

You started at Speakers' Corner, I believe.

-I had appeared at Speakers' Corner. I don't now.

-Why did you move?

I don't like Hyde Park because the level of intelligence

from the crowd there is not so high

as it is as at other places in London,

and most people go there purely for the laughs

and to make themselves heard.

I go to speaking places to make people laugh,

to make myself heard, but then I'm in charge.

-And you found you got a much more intelligent response.

-Oh, yes.

And the questions are on a higher intellectual level

than they are anywhere else.

In Lincoln's Inn Fields, the much higher than anywhere else.

Mr Tomkins, why do speakers stand up on their soapboxes, and lecture?

Are they frustrated actors or preachers?

-Well, probably, actually.

-Why do you?

Well, I do it because it's a form of self-expression.

Some people find self-expression in collecting stamps,

or railway engine numbers, others by playing tennis,

I do it by speaking in public,

and the self-expression part, I think,

comes in that it gives you a great deal of personal kudos,

to be able to hold a crowd.

It's one thing to be able to speak,

you might get a dozen people listening to you,

but if you can hold a crowd of several hundred

you must be saying something either provocative or interesting.

I've heard it said that you won't answer questions from women. Why not?

Well, I don't take questions from women

because women are so illogical.

They seem to lose themselves in the question

and it becomes quite irrelevant

to the point that you're arguing about.

The most raved about star of all.

The girl Bardot named as her successor.

The most wanted actress in Italy.

A star with the head of a girl of 15,

and the body of a woman of 22.

Miss Claudia Cardinale, the object of all these praises,

has just arrived in London.

So, how could we resist seeing her ourselves?

As I understand, your contract in Italy is very strict indeed.

He can't get married, you can't cut your hair, you can't put on weight.

In fact it looks as if you have cut your hair.

Aren't you going to get imprisonment or the ducking stool for this?

-No. It's a wig.

-It's a wig, is it?

I have my hair long till here.

-And it's all tucked up under there.

-Yes.

But, nevertheless, this contract of yours, which forbids these things,

doesn't this mean that you've got a lot of freedom

eliminated from your life?

No, I'm completely free, I can do what I want to do.

Well, except marry, or cut your hair, or put on weight.

No! Sure, I can't marry tomorrow morning without calling my company,

but, I can do what I want to do.

Well, that sounds a bit confused to me. What about putting on weight?

Are you free to put on weight if you want to,

without ringing your company?

Oh, I can do what I want. Really.

-But, anyway I don't want to cut my hair.

-Or put on weight.

-No.

-Miss Cardinale, thank you very much indeed.

-Thank you.

Does it now, as a very, sort of,

independent minded woman,

does it sort of bother you when you look at the movie industry

and you see that the criterion, particularly the actresses,

is simply whether they're beautiful or not?

-Is it?

-Well, it certainly is.

-No wonder I failed.

God!

I don't know, you see, I don't think that lasts very long.

That lasts for only as long as your face lasts.

And your face doesn't last very long.

Mine doesn't, I mean, a lot of people's don't.

I don't think that's anything to base anything on.

I mean, then you better save your money, I figure,

if it's all based on anything that is that superficial.

But, I mean, wasn't it a superficial business,

and isn't it a superficial business?

-I mean...

-I think in some areas it was.

With some people it was, but not with all.

I mean, the greatest stars, I mean, the real movie stars,

that's what we're speaking of.

-Correct?

-Yes.

-Are people who really could act.

And those are the people who lasted.

And, as far as I'm concerned, a movie star's not a movie star

unless he can last.

I mean, to be a movie star for a year and a half

is not being a movie star.

Just because your name's on the title, doesn't mean a bloody thing.

That's true.

Well, it doesn't!

-I like your style.

-I think you're marvellous.

You had this fairly abrasive career with Hollywood, didn't you?

-I mean you...

-I would say, yes. A bit.

I mean, extraordinary in that you started off so big and then,

you had this sort of period.

Well, I'm a perfect example of what we were speaking of earlier.

That I started off so big at the age of 19, totally unequipped for it.

No experience.

Talent totally undirected.

So, I mean, I didn't know, really, what I was doing, at all.

In a medium that was totally strange to me.

And unprotected.

Because the man that I was under contract to didn't think it

was important to protect me.

Or any actor.

So, from that point of view, it was, it was stardom overnight

and then I dare you to live up to it.

Well, I couldn't live up to it.

So, you know, it was as fast as I went up,

that's how fast I fell down, and spent the rest of my career

just trying to get to some middle ground

where I could function, because it was...

How difficult was it for you, Lauren, afterwards,

to live down the thing of just being Bogart's widow.

-Was that a very difficult thing to do?

-It's still going on, isn't it?

No, it's not. Not as far as I'm concerned.

-Are you sure?

-I'm absolutely sure, yes.

We'll move off the subject, really, in a moment.

But I just wondered just how difficult it was,

because, obviously it was, I mean, and still is,

because you've got this cult thing about that.

-Well, I think that's wonderful. He deserved that.

-Yes.

Anyone that was that extraordinary, that gifted as an actor,

in addition to being as gifted as he was a human being,

which was really above and beyond what most people

ever are in their lives, that you'll ever meet in your lifetime.

He deserved, I mean, he rates every cult

that there can possibly be from every generation,

and he's timeless, I mean,

I think this will go on forever, long after my life is over. Um...

But, as far as my relationship with him is concerned, that was our own.

And that...I just think it's very boring of the press to continually

talk about that.

I mean, I did say once, and I'll say it again,

hopefully the last time, that being a widow is not a profession.

And that you live your life the best you can,

and when a certain section of your life is over,

you deal with it as best you can, and that's very private,

and then you have to press on and do something else for yourself,

because you're the only one that is left,

so I'm entitled to a life of my own.

And I'm going to have it, dammit! In spite of you, Michael Parkinson.

APPLAUSE

J Paul Getty is unique.

He is the only American dollar billionaire.

To most of us, big-money means the 75,000 prize on the Treble Chance.

To be as rich as this man,

you'd need to win the Pools every Saturday for 800 years.

He could afford to give a pound note to every man, woman,

and child in the world.

And that includes the Chinese.

Some people might see you as lucky, Mr Getty.

Some as a cold calculating machine.

Others as a daring and unique business genius with a Midas touch.

How do you see yourself?

Well, I see myself...

..as a...you might say, as a tennis player.

Um...

just trying to volley the ball back.

There are a great many stories,

Mr Getty, of your care with money.

For example you've installed a pay telephone box,

here, in Sutton Place, to prevent your guests

abusing your hospitality by making trunk and toll calls.

Well, I think right-thinking guests

would consider that was a benefit.

It's...

..rather...

..daunting if you're visiting somewhere

and you have to put in a long-distance call, and...

..charge your host with it.

One of your wives has said that you're much

afraid of showing your feelings.

She says you've never been able to open up with men,

or indeed have an intimate man friend.

Oh, I think I've had a few...

..few good friends...

..among men.

One of the closest friends I have and the best friends I had,

unfortunately...

..died this morning.

I think I had long

and close friendship with him.

She says, "Paul is the most lonely man I know.

"He wants to meet the other person but he can't."

I wouldn't say that I have ever felt particularly lonely.

I've been too busy to feel lonely.

You're like the squirrel in the cage.

You race to stay where you are.

But you must know, Mr Getty, that you can't take it with you.

No. It's probably a good thing.

It might be quite a burden.

Barbra Streisand, everybody writes,

or talks about

the lonely life of the star,

that she lives in tragic isolation, except the star herself, it seems.

Is it really like that?

Do you feel isolated? Cut-off?

Whatever personality that particular star has

usually conditions his,

you know, life, socially.

I mean, as far as loneliness goes, I mean, if one is a social person,

you know, you can have more, a less lonely life,

if you choose to lead a more isolated life,

then that's what you'll get.

I read in the paper about all this money I'm supposed to be making,

which is so terrible, cos I don't make that kind of money.

It's all lies.

And people go around thinking, "Oh, Barbra Streisand,

"the one who's making that for the two films,"

cos they write about it like it's absolute fact, so,

the power of the printed word is so strong,

you know, everyone assumes it's true.

And I find myself, you know,

being cast into this false image of publicity,

so when people deal with you, they're dealing with you,

not from what you are, what you radiate,

what your chemistry is, what your truth is,

but what their whole preconceived...

-Images.

-..notions are, yeah.

That did bother me, especially when they said bad things about me,

you know.

It hurt me. Cos I believe in the truth so much.

I mean, that I... it makes my life easier.

I don't understand how anybody could sleep at night telling a lie,

you know.

Having distortions that are...planned.

Cos, if somebody lies and they think it's the truth,

that's understandable.

But if somebody distorts and says salacious things

for an opportunistic, you know, results, or whenever.

I don't know how these people sleep at night.

And that used to really bother me, you know?

What's the most important thing that's ever happened to you?

I guess, having a baby.

I mean, that, to me, this just kills me, you know that?

It's so great, when I think that I saw you when I was going to London

and I was not pregnant, you know?

And now I have a baby. It kinda kills me.

You know, it was a great story about that.

I found out I was pregnant opening night of Funny Girl in London.

And, um...

..I couldn't tell anybody, naturally, afterwards, you know.

My friends and my husband knew.

And, everyone was congratulating me and I was saying thank you,

but for a whole other reason.

It was wild.

Granny said to me, marry that boy and get out of this house,

when she was a widow and living with my mother.

-You married when you're 16, first of all.

-Yes.

I was a widow before I was 17, and pregnant.

-Yes.

-Widows' weaves and a bun in the oven.

Rather conventional but it happened to be right.

But the fun about it was that, well, not fun,

but the curious thing about it was that

my first husband was in the RAF

and we sat down when he became

a pilot officer and we discussed what we were going to do about this.

Because he had gone to my father, you see,

and said he wanted to marry me,

and father said no.

So, in the end, we discussed it, because we both knew,

as children, that he was going to be killed.

And we also knew that were going to have one son and call him Peter.

And we were married at eight o'clock in the morning

on the Isle of Sheppey.

It was two brother officers with grey flannels pulled

over their pyjamas, as witnesses, nearly drowned that day,

because we nearly got into the quicksands on a boat.

And four months later he was killed.

I heard on the Wednesday I was going to have a baby

and he died on the Friday.

I heard that you, in fact, were interested in faith healing.

Is that so?

Yes, I am.

But I don't particularly want to talk about it, though.

Let me ask you,

because you've admitted that you are.

As somebody who believes in it because she can achieve it,

or it's been achieved?

-COUGHS

-Dear me!

As somebody who has received and experienced it.

-On a serious illness?

-Cancer.

-And you were cured?

-Yes.

And my doctors will confirm it.

-That's absolutely amazing.

-All right?

-Yes. Yes.

But I hold this as being the most important thing in my life

and I don't think it's right for chatsies, can we?

We can, and I am delighted,

though, because I didn't want I didn't know that to be true.

You asked me and I won't tell fibs.

Maybe it would be better if we became like the French.

Obviously it would be better

if we acquired some of their art of dealing with food. But they are

a different sort of people.

Fanny, do you have any observations on that?

LAUGHTER

Had to be difficult to remember what it was.

You implied that we had to become like the French.

Now, I'm half French, as you all know.

You should become like the French.

Do you always have to become like your friends?

Can I stop you from leaping across at one another in the unlikely event.

-No, it's very friendly.

-It is. But can I put a little point in here.

What interests me that you made there, Fanny,

you are working on the assumption that politicians are different.

You believe that conservatives

and this government is different from the other government.

I didn't say that, either, and don't you put words into my mouth.

In the final account, all-party politics stink.

The historian's view.

No, this is quite untrue.

Politicians are not always very competent.

Curiously enough, I think most of the time they're trying to do their best.

-So do I.

-And some of the time they succeed.

But, the idea that there's anything disreputable about politics,

I don't think that's true.

I can't imagine why people devote themselves to it.

It is the most ghastly,

really unrewarding life there could possibly be,

except for some extraordinary idea of fame, the grandeur of being this.

But why do they do it?

French politicians are in politics

because they get their hands in the till.

Now that makes sense.

But that's not true about British politicians on the whole.

On the whole, no.

But isn't it also true, and I'm speaking against myself here,

that in the past, the politics of France have been appalling,

deplorable, and regrettable?

No.

-You're just being pig-minded.

-No, not at all.

They've had some very good governments,

done enlightening things.

Yes, they changed every five minutes for 20 years.

Well, that doesn't matter. It only means that there's...

They were the same chaps changing.

You'll find if you look at French politics, it's musical chairs,

except that they never take the chair away.

There're always enough chairs for everybody.

I know, my dear Mr Taylor, whom I admire so much,

I know exactly what it's like arguing with you.

It's like holding a wet eel in a high wind

because you slither out every single time with your brilliance.

I think only, perhaps, that I'm a little more precise and careful.

One of the most powerful, and in many ways,

most perplexing movements in the United States of America,

the Black Muslims.

They are negro extremists and they are not only a political movement,

they're also a religious movement, and, indeed, they are a way of life.

But, like all revolutionary movements,

they face a challenge, because one of their most forceful leaders

has now broken away, dissatisfied with the policy of the Black Muslims.

He is a 38-year-old Nebraskan.

His name was Malcolm Little, but now, because it's a name of servitude,

he is known to the world simply as Malcolm X,

and he's now the leader of his own independent group,

the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated.

First of all, can I clear up your name.

Was it, in fact, Malcolm Little?

I don't think it was "in fact."

If it was "in fact" I would have let it remain.

Little was the name of the man who formerly

owned my grandfather as a slave.

-So I gave it back.

-So, do people now address you as Mr X?

Mr X, Malcolm X.

The Black Muslim policy, as I was saying, was completely separatist.

That they wanted this separate state within the United States.

Now, as I understand it, you don't.

We want to be recognised and respected as human beings

and we have a motto which tells somewhat

how we intend to bring it about.

Our motto is, By Any Means Necessary.

By whatever means is necessary to bring about complete respect

and recognition of the 22 million black people in America

as human beings, that's what we're for, and that's where dedicated to.

By any means.

-By ANY means.

-By any means.

A bloodbath?

Well, I think that as deplorable as the word bloodbath may sound,

I think that the condition that negroes in America

have already experienced, long too long, is just as deplorable.

And if it takes something that deplorable to remove

this other deplorable condition, then I don't think that it's...

I think it's justified.

But, don't you think there's also justification, in the case,

for the gradual white and negro coming together.

This gradual integration policy, because, after all,

it's a change of heart and mind, and everything else for both sides.

In America, I don't think there's any gradual coming together.

There may be a gradual coming together at the top.

A few hand-picked, uppercrust, bourgeois,

negroes are coming together with the so-called liberal element

in the white community, but at the mass level,

I don't think there's any real, honest, sincere coming together.

If anything, there is a widening of the gap.

Now, if there is this widening of the gap, then,

when you see this explosion taking place?

Well, that doesn't necessarily have to be an explosion

if the proper type of education is brought about to give the people

the correct understanding of the causes of these conditions that exist

and to try and educate them away from this animosity and hostility.

-But, this education takes a long time.

-Not as long as legislation.

Education will do it much faster than legislation.

You can't legislate good will.

Now, you said, at the end of 1963, that 1964

will be a very explosive year, and in many ways, Mr X, it has.

Has it been as explosive as you would have hoped?

That's not the question.

Has it been as explosive as I would have thought?

It wasn't as explosive as I would have thought.

I think the miracle of 1964 was the ability of the American negro

to restrain himself against extreme, unjust provocation

and dilly-dallying on the part of the United States government,

where his rights are concerned.

Will he restrain himself so in 1965?

I very much doubt that he will restrain himself so

very much longer.

-Mr X, thank you very much, indeed.

-You're welcome.

When the vote was eventually given to women, did you feel

that the struggle was over and that now women

would move into their proper place?

No, I don't think so, because, you see,

we were basing our request for the vote on inequalities

and injustices and lack of opportunity.

So, that we knew that the moment we got the tool

we had to go on working for that, you see.

What was your view of the Pankhursts?

They were extremely brilliant.

I spoke on the same platform with Mrs Pankhurst

and Christabel before they became very pertinent.

And they were completely one idea, quite ruthless

with themselves and everybody else.

The history of the movement in Britain had a very troubled

history, because it became divided between the moderates,

with whom you associated yourself, you were secretary, and the militants.

The militants.

Can you tell me if in the years 1907 onwards, initially, of course,

they all worked together, didn't they?

Yes. We only split, you see,

when they became destructive of property

and violent with other people.

I mean, as long as they presented they, themselves,

we could stick together but

we thought it was stupid

to challenge men on the only ground

in which it's absolutely obvious

that we're inferior

and that's in physical strength.

Was he as tough as everyone said he was?

He was very, very tough man indeed.

And Errol went through a period,

which we all go through, having a rather swollen head.

He just made a big success with his first picture.

And we were lined up, with 600 fellows,

and I was one of the junior officers, and two officers,

and Flynn was in front, and Flynn was taking it all a bit seriously,

he let the reins go on his horse and he was sitting back

getting the hat straight and getting everything touched up

before the charge,

and we had rubber lances, in case anybody poked anybody's eye out,

with wobbly tips.

So, one of these enormous fellows behind leant forward his lance

and went up Errol Flynn's horse's behind, which went brrr,

like this and Flynn went about 19 feet in the air.

Now, if it had been me, I'd have got up and said, "Please don't."

Would have got on my horse.

But not Flynn, he said, "Which of you sons of bitches did that?"

So, this huge orangutan said,

"I did. You want to make anything of it?"

So Flynn said, "I certainly do." And he pulled him off the horse

and they fought for minutes, and he murdered him, absolutely massacred.

And they adored Flynn after that. Thought he was great.

The last time we really sat down and talked together on television

was when you had just won, if you would remember,

your Academy award for Separate Tables,

which I thought was the most marvellous film.

What did you feel like when they were giving out

the names of the award winners?

Well, it's pretty spooky because, you know, the nomination comes out,

and you sit there with a television camera on each of the five nominees

and you think, "Well, if it's not going to be me,

"what sort of a face am I going to put on,

"with that thing looking right at me?"

So out came my name, a miracle, and I jumped up

and ran down the thing before they change their mind, you know.

Give it back, Niven.

And fell, fell headlong up the steps, onto the stage,

white tie, and everything.

And I thought, I better explain this, people were clapping,

and I grabbed the Oscar from Irene Dunne,

who was giving it to me.

And said, I think you should explain this rather peculiar entrance.

And, what I meant to say, was that the reason I fell down was

that I was so loaded with good luck charms that I was top-heavy.

I made an idiot pause after the word loaded,

and I became the first self-confessed

drunk in the business. The reason I fell down was cos I was so loaded.

They all roared with laughter

and I never even bothered to get the rest out.

Richard Burton, I read in the papers that a couple of years ago, or so,

you had a drink problem, your career was somewhat slipping,

but now, everything's going fine for you.

Is that so? And why?

Yes, well...

once you have a drink problem, you always have one.

Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.

But, and I'm quite sure whether I am or not.

I read in the papers, too, that you said you were

on three bottles of the hard stuff and one doctor said

if you go on like this you've got two weeks to live.

So, you must of been very bad.

Oh, yes. Yes, but that would have been considered.

I was into my third bottle a day, so a friend of mine told me.

Being into my third bottle,

I wasn't aware of the fact that I was into it.

But, he told me so and I was somewhat surprised.

And he said this same friend, he is actually here,

said would you have a blood test?

And they took a blood test, it was, of course, I was X.

I was anonymous in the blood test.

And they said this person, if he keeps on as he's going,

because they have written an account of what my behaviour was.

If he goes on as he is, will have, approximately,

two weeks to live, which I found very intriguing.

I was so sloshed when they told me, anyway.

So, I said, "Well, that gives me three days to do..." You know,

that kind of mock heroics, went on.

But, I did put myself in hospital and,

though I could have come out in a week,

I enjoyed the hospital somewhat.

Enjoyed is hardly the word,

but I became so fascinated by the other people who were generally

suffering from sclerosis of the liver, that I stayed in hospital,

and I didn't have a thing to do, anyway, and became a sort of

lay doctor, if there is such a thing,

and went visiting these people, and it really was horrifying,

and I suggest that anybody who does have a drinking problem,

as they euphemistically put it,

nowadays, who is in fact an alcoholic,

goes to visit somebody who has terminal cirrhosis of the liver.

It's an unbelievable sight.

Do know what caused you to drink in the first place?

Well, I'm a Welshman, and most Celts, Irishmen, Scots, Welsh,

and the English, very quietly, too, are not far behind,

I think we're all, I think it's a human frailty.

You say, you're quoted as saying,

acting is somehow shameful for a man to do.

It isn't natural to put on make-up and wear costumes

and say someone else's lines, so you drink to overcome the shame.

Oh, no. That's a misquote, oh, at least, I might have said it,

but I was probably on the fourth bottle that day when I said it.

No, I think, no, that's no excuse for drinking, at all.

No, I think that I was simply a heavy drinker,

really enjoyed it, and went too far.

I saw a piece, actually, this week, or last week,

was one of the papers, with an interview with you, where you

described yourselves, in quotes, as being frustrated Laurel and Hardy.

-We don't describe ourselves.

-Not frustrated.

That's the quote that, that's what I wondered about,

not Laurel and Hardy, but frustrated.

No, I don't think either one of us is.

We're making a movie now in which the relationship

is somewhat close to the relationship of Laurel and Hardy,

but we're certainly not frustrated.

The reason I ask, because now, all the old films,

the old two reels are being shown on BBC television,

and they've got a tremendous impact on all the children, particularly.

And I wonder if you're fans from way back.

Oh, yeah. Fans from way back.

This going to be one of those kinds of interviews, isn't it?

One reads a lot about the two of you

when you worked that there's improvisation goes on between you,

how much do you improvise when you go in front of the cameras?

Well...

Not as much as people think.

-But quite a bit.

-Right.

In what way?

With ourselves.

But, I mean, the two of you, obviously, can work together

because you have a kind of rapport together.

But isn't it frustrating to somebody who is involved in a scene with you

who is not necessarily on the same wavelength?

I mean, like me?

To a lot of people, watching in England, they still

think of you as associated with all the various terrorist activities

and of the Palestine Liberation Organisation, and then they think of

Black September, and Munich, and Lod airport, and all of those things.

What would you say to people who really,

feel that the Palestine fight means

that sort of murder?

What would you say to explain?

It is... You know, I will give you a small example.

Washington was a terrorist in your view.

When he started his liberation war.

You, the British, was looking to Washington as a terrorist.

Yes? Because he was looking for the liberation of his nation.

All those freedom fighter, fighters...

..used to be called terrorists in the beginning.

But, don't forget that in the United Nations,

those who had been called as a terrorist are now...

..statement, state.

-Statesmen.

-Statesmen. You know?

But, also, you are only looking

for the Palestinians as terrorists.

Me, I am not. I am against

any of this individual actions...

..of terrorism.

We in the PLO are against it.

But, you have to look at it from the other points.

That some persons who are,

who are in the corner,

from frustration and despair,

they begin to think of it.

But we are against it

and, as a freedom fighter,

as a real freedom fighter I'm against it.

But, moving on from that, what things have you had to give up,

what sacrifices have you had to make,

what are the things that you couldn't do because of what you're doing?

Do you think... Put it another way...

It is a personal question.

I don't like to speak about myself.

Let us speak about my people, my cause.

So, because, sacrifices of persons means nothing.

What is important is the future of the people.

Of my people.

You are quoted, on one occasion, in fact, as saying,

talking about not having a wife and children,

as saying, "Palestine is my wife."

Did you say that?

No, Palestine is my wife, but definitely,

I would like to...

I would like that my people

will not be kicked out from their homelands,

so, I would like not to have...

these circumstances,

which oblige me

to go on this struggle.

I would like to live a normal life, as others, as you are living.

But I can't live this normal life because...

..my people is living in this very, very hard circumstances

and in this fears, this tragedy.

And you need all your time, you mean, for that?

At least, you know that I am completely busy.

Do you think that, on the whole, the fanatics in the world are more

useful, or more dangerous than the sceptics?

Fanaticism is the danger of the world.

It or always has been, and has done untold harm.

No, I think that fanaticism is the gravest danger there is.

I might almost say that I was fanatically against fanaticism.

But, then, are you not fanatical, also,

against some other things, you see?

Now, your current campaign, for instance,

in favour of nuclear disarmament,

which you encourage your supporters to undertake some of the extreme

demonstrations that they are undertaking.

Isn't that fanaticism?

I don't think that's fanaticism, no.

I mean, some of them may be fanatical,

but I do give them support but not for fanatical reasons.

I support them because everything sane and sensible

and quiet that we do is absolutely ignored by the press.

And, the only way we can get into the press is to do something

that looks fanatical.

I mean, the worst possibility is that human life may be extinguished,

and it is a very real possibility.

Very real. And that is the worst.

But, assuming that doesn't happen,

I can't bear the thought of many

hundreds of millions of people dying in agony,

only, and solely, because

the rulers of the world are stupid and wicked, and I can't bear it.

Of the sort of conventional self-indulgences,

or vices like drink and tobacco, and so on,

which is your favourite one?

Oh, tobacco. I smoke a pipe all day long,

except when I'm eating or sleeping.

Hasn't that shortened your life?

Well, they used to say it would when I first took to it,

but I took to it some 70 years ago,

so, it doesn't seem to have had a very great effect so far.

In fact, you know, on one occasion, it saved my life.

I was in an aeroplane and a man was getting a seat for me and I said,

"Get me a seat in the smoking part,

"because if I can't smoke, I should die."

And, sure enough, there was an accident, a bad accident,

and all the people

in the non-smoking part of the plane were drowned.

The people in the smoking part jumped into the Norwegian fjords

where we landed and were saved,

so that I owe my life to smoking.

Suppose, Lord Russell, this film were to be

looked at by our descendants, like a dead Sea scroll in 1,000 years time,

what would you think it's worth telling that generation

about the life you've lived and the lessons you've learned from it.

I should like to say two things, one intellectual, and one moral.

The intellectual thing I should want to say to them is this -

when you are studying any matter, or considering any philosophy...

..ask yourself only what are the facts

and what is the truth that the facts bear out.

Never let yourself be diverted either by what you wish to believe

or by what you think would have beneficent social effects

if it were believed.

But look only and solely at what are the facts.

That is the intellectual thing that I should wish to say.

The moral thing I should wish to say to them is very simple -

I should say, love is wise, hatred is foolish.

In this world, which is getting more and more closely interconnected...

..we have to learn to tolerate each other.

We have to learn to put up with the fact that some people say

things that we don't like.

We can only live together in that way.

But if we are to live together

and not die together we must learn a kind of charity

and a kind of tolerance, which is absolutely vital to the continuation

of human life on this planet.

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