What Ever Happened to Rock 'n' Roll?


What Ever Happened to Rock 'n' Roll?

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This programme contains some strong language

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MUSIC: Figure It Out by Royal Blood

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At Glastonbury last month,

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Kanye West claimed to be the number one rock star on the planet.

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But is that a title still worth having?

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With festivals running short of rock bands big enough to headline,

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cherished venues closing to make way for chichi apartments,

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once beloved music papers becoming freebies.

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We were told rock 'n' roll would never die,

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but, at 60 years old, is it starting to look its age?

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Tonight we're going to do something different on BBC Four

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and discuss rock 'n' roll's rich tapestry

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from a defiantly 21st-century perspective.

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Over the course of the next hour,

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I'll be hearing from a host of great musicians as we ask

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exactly what the hell rock 'n' roll means today

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and whether it can still be genuinely subversive and dangerous.

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MUSIC: You Can't Catch Me by Chuck Berry

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# Gone like a cool breeze. #

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To me, rock 'n' roll music means

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this straightforward chug-a-lug boogie music.

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And it's fast and it's in your face and it's visceral.

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I just felt, as a kid, that it was available to me, like,

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I'm going to try and play guitar.

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To me, it means freedom of spirit.

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And a spirit.

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It's not really a sound, not a leather jacket,

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it's not about being cool

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and yet, again, it's about all those things.

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APPLAUSE

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Welcome. Welcome to London's legendary 100 Club,

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a rock 'n' roll stalwart that first opened its doors in 1942

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as a jazz club that played host to American big-band leaders,

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like Benny Goodman.

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Since then, it has been a Ground Zero for many a musical movement,

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from Trad-Jazz in the '50s to Punk in the '70s.

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Anybody who was anybody has been up on that stage behind me,

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from Macca and The Stones to Sleaford Mods.

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Where better to take the temperature of rock 'n' roll?

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Joining me for some R and R face time today

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are three fantastic panellists,

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each one representing a different facet of the rock 'n' roll diamond.

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Let's start with the lead singer of Savages, a band

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full of blistering intensity at the cutting edge of modern rock,

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whose performances are as primal as their name suggests.

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MUSIC DROWNS SPEECH

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-Jehnny Beth, welcome.

-APPLAUSE

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-Thank you.

-Hello.

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CHEERING

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Joining Jehnny, a gentleman who really needs no introduction.

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In fact, I'm not sure there is

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a more rock 'n' roll being in existence.

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He's an icon of the punk era, a poet, you know it.

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-APPLAUSE

-Hire car, hire car.

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Why would anybody buy a car?

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Bang it, prang it, say ta-ta.

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It's a hire car, baby.

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It is the Bard of Salford himself, Dr John Cooper Clarke.

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APPLAUSE AND CHEERING

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-Hello.

-CHEERING

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Completing our million-dollar quarter is a true legend

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from deep within rock 'n' roll's gilded halls.

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In the mid-'60s, he went brothel-creeping

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in New Orleans in The Animals.

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# There is a house in New Orleans

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# They call the Rising Sun

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# And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy

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# And God, I know, I'm one. #

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The mighty Beatles knew him better as The Egg Man.

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Yes, it is the one and only Eric Burdon, welcome.

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APPLAUSE AND CHEERING

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Rock 'n' roll means many things to many people.

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It's an attitude, an adjective and way of life.

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Let's kick off by asking our panel what it means to them

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and if you guys could share your first rock 'n' roll memory with us.

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Eric, what was your rock 'n' roll awakening?

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I went to see a movie called, er, Baby Doll.

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They had this title music called Shame, Shame, Shame by Smiley Lewis

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and that one track set up the whole...

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MUSIC: Shame, Shame, Shame by Smiley Lewis

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...play that was about to happen on the screen.

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And that got me interested.

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John, what about you? What does rock 'n' roll mean to you?

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My first experience of rock 'n' roll in a...

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in any potent way, I guess, was at fairgrounds.

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They had better sound systems than you could possibly afford

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and, er...

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they had access, for some reason,

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to all the latest stateside hits.

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That was where you came in, OK.

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Jehnny, what turned you on to rock 'n' roll?

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I think there would be a list of things,

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but one I remember is seeing Wings of Desire

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by Wim Wenders and...

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and I remember that scene when Rowland S Howard is stepping onstage

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like a wild animal and doing circles like that

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and he's filmed from the back and...

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I don't know, something about that scene that, you know,

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really turned me on.

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-LAUGHTER

-The primal power?

-Yeah.

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In film, as well. Interesting. There's a simpatico developing

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-already between you two.

-Yeah, it's quite interesting.

-I like it.

-Mm.

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OK. OK, well, time for some actual rock 'n' roll.

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Matthew E White is a Virginian songwriter and producer whose album,

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Fresh Blood, was released to broad acclaim earlier this year.

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Now, the album's standout track is the intriguingly titled

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Rock and Roll Is Cold, an allusion to what Matthew sees

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as rock 'n' roll's post-millennial crisis.

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We caught up with him for an exclusive performance

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at the BBC's Maida Vale studios and demanded that he explain himself.

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MATTHEW WHISPERS: One, two, three.

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# You said you found the soul of rock and roll

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# You said you found the soul of rock and roll

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# 'Ey, 'ey, rock and roll, it don't have no soul

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# Everybody knows that now

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# Everyone knows

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# Everybody knows that rock and roll is cold

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# You said you found the key to R&B

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# You said you found the key to R&B

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# 'Ey, 'ey, R&B, it don't have no key

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# Everybody gets that now

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# Everyone sees

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# Everybody sees that R&B is free. #

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I think, first and foremost, it's a... It's fun. You know?

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It's not meant to be a particularly serious record in some ways.

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Rock 'n' roll came from the black American experience

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and it has kind of journeyed on from there.

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It's gone past that and...

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I think that song kind of celebrates those routes in some way,

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you know, R&B music and gospel music.

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# You said you found the trick to gospel lyrics. #

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'I think there's been a way that those genres have stayed very alive'

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and vibrant to me in a way that sometimes rock 'n' roll hasn't done

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the best job of and there's been times in rock 'n' roll's history

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where it's become a bit of a caricature of itself

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and sort of bloated in that way. And it hasn't aged particularly well.

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The song kind of touches on that stuff.

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# Everybody gets the gospel lyrics are gifts. #

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'Rock 'n' roll is a music that is built off of copying.

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'It's not the original source material.'

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Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry and things like that

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are the original source material and

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it's tough to mine that effectively and creatively

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kind of at the same level each...each generation.

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# Everybody likes to talk

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# Everybody likes to talk shit, 'ey, 'ey. #

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I think rock 'n' roll will lose its footing

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as the sort of... Well, it already has,

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as the sort of the centrepiece of, like...

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the music of the culture.

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'But it's still important, it's still important music

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'and it's still important art. I just think it becomes...'

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maybe in a healthy way, it becomes more

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removed from the mainstream.

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# Ooh la la la, ooh la

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# Everybody likes to talk

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# Everybody likes to talk shit, 'ey, 'ey. #

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GUITAR RIFF

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SONG ENDS

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THEY LAUGH Oops.

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Now, Matthew basically opens the can of worms there,

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as to why we're here today, suggesting that rock 'n' roll

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has become a cliche in danger of repeating itself.

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John, I'm going to start with you.

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So Matthew talked about the fact that

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from the outset, it was a derivative form.

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-I mean, what do you think about that?

-It was...

-Is that a problem?

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I think it's a derivative form of a derivative form

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of a derivative form.

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It seems to be like a force of nature, you know, rock 'n' roll.

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You know, country music feeds into it.

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It's not just the blues, it's equal parts.

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-Appalachian and folk.

-Appalachian, you know.

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Well, Elvis, you know. All things to all men, eh?

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Everybody in the world claims ownership of Elvis.

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I'm being a bit serious about it, but rock 'n' roll,

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you know it when you hear it. You know what is

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and you know what isn't rock 'n' roll. And it's...

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And as for rock 'n' roll repeating itself,

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it's been repeating itself since it was even given a name.

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Jehnny, you were nodding when John was speaking there,

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nodding about the fact that rock's been repeating itself

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since the very beginning. Why?

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Yeah, because I like that idea of...

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The way I see it is like a big ball, giant ball rolling down a hill

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and picking up people as it goes along and in forming itself,

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the past and future and present, in forming itself in that process.

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And I see it like a giant family, as well.

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I think when you, as you said, when you're young,

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it kind of touches your soul and your heart

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and you find a new family, it becomes your family.

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And when you meet like-minded people,

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who have been touched by the same thing,

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which you can't really explain what it is...

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Is it a sexual thing? Is it a...is it a spiritual thing?

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Is it a physical...? It could be many things,

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but you find yourself part of something bigger than yourself

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and it gives you a belief in your life.

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It's almost like church, you know.

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So it sounds like you disagree with Matthew E White.

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It's anything but cold, it's very much alive and vibrant.

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God, yeah! I mean, I don't... Yeah, I don't know.

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I don't think it's cold.

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When it turns cold, something's got wrong.

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Eric, you know, this is the music

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that...this derivative form that we're talking about,

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was it your generation that stole it first, would you say?

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What...you know? What did you grow up on?

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What kind of music really turned you on to rock 'n' roll?

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And how did you adapt your influences into something new?

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-Something of your own.

-Well, it was liberation.

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It liberated me from my boring childhood in Newcastle.

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And I was lucky enough to get into art school

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and I met a lot of like-minded people in art school. And...

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we started to dig into the history,

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via books and recordings

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and found out that it was the underground,

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it was the black underground in the United States and that it...

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rock 'n' roll originally meant sexuality, you know.

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"To rock you, baby, all night long" didn't mean you were taking your

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little nephew and rocking him all night long, you know what I mean?

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It had a whole lot of connotations, but it was...

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it was the black underground spirit

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that came out of slavery in the South.

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Right, well, if rock 'n' roll is a closed book,

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a sort of 20th-century period piece, then who damn well wrote it?

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Many decades before the NME became a free sheet, there existed

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a healthy hinterland industry known as rock 'n' roll criticism.

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Writers could make a fairly decent living and,

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if you were especially talented, you were feted for your work.

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We caught up with the doyen of rock criticism,

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the music writer's writer,

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Charles Shaar Murray, on a sentimental stroll

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around London's Denmark Street, once better-known as Tin Pan Alley.

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# One, two, three, whoo! #

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ROCK MUSIC PLAYS

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Rock 'n' roll was a new music.

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When I first heard The Who,

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particularly things like My Generation, Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere,

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I thought, "They're saying what I feel. This is my music."

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"This speaks to me.

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"And to older people, it's just going to sound like this horrible noise,

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"but I know what it is and I know what it means."

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# Why don't you all f...fade away?

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# Talking 'bout my generation

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# Yeah, don't try to dig what we all s...say.

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# Talking 'bout my generation.. #

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'Zooming forward, you know, you have the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame,

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'you have people teaching courses in rock 'n' roll at universities.

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MUSIC: Don't Look Back Into The Sun by The Libertines

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'You have Pete Townshend touring at the age of 70 and,

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'for younger listeners, I can't imagine

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'that this is anything other than somewhat intimidating.'

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It's harder and harder to do something new

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when there's so much history to work with.

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What do you do?

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It's not my problem any more,

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but I'd like to hear what the youth think about it.

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Peace.

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SONG ENDS

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So, Jehnny, Charles there.

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A bit of a kiss-off there, as in, you know,

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rock 'n' roll is weighed down by its own history.

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Do you think he's right?

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Well, it's interesting. When you talk about the death of rock 'n' roll,

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because it's a thing that seems to happen every ten years, almost,

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it's a cyclical thing and I think the death of rock 'n' roll

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is the essence of rock 'n' roll, because you want...

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What you want rock 'n' roll to be is you want it to be pure,

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you know, authentic, ephemeral.

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And, by killing it, you know, you ensure its renaissance.

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I went to an interview of Greil Marcus...

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a journalist, erm, writer from the '60s, and he...

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And I saw that interview a few weeks ago,

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and he was saying something about that the first time

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he heard that rock 'n' roll was dead was in 1957,

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and it keeps going...

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He said this quote, that for music was really good,

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he said, "I've been to the funeral several times,

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"and the corpse keeps standing up and walking away."

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And also, I think, for my generation,

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it's really interesting to hear things like that.

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It always surprises me when people say,

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"Oh, everything has been done. What are you going to do now?"

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And as if I was born at the wrong time, you know?

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As if everything has happened before I was born, and now I'm here,

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and it's over, girl. Like, you can't do anything.

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It sounds like that puts a bit of fire in your belly, though,

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-when people say that to you.

-It does a bit.

-"Oh, it's all done.

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-"It's all been done before."

-It does a bit, yeah.

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It's a bit unfair, isn't it? Like, as if my parents had the best time

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and I will never have the same time as they had, you know?

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It's like, well, you don't know about my present time, and I'm...

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I think music, and especially rock 'n' roll, is putting a mirror,

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you know, to what's happening now,

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and you can still talk to people, what's happening.

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I mean, we live under a quite crazy time, you know, still.

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And what about you guys?

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You must have heard rock 'n' roll is dead

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-a few times over the years.

-You can only invent something once.

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Can't you? And after that, if it's... And that is a great...

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and rock 'n' roll is a great invention.

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But I think the big danger with rock 'n' roll was that it

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came in the late '60s, when, I think when, which...it's my pet hate...

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when technical expertise became paramount.

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I think the main thing about rock 'n' roll is

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that the musicians shouldn't get any better.

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You know, Chuck Berry is as bad a guitar player now as he ever was.

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It's part of his charm.

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That's why he's still doing shows all over the world.

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The problem that I have with rock 'n' roll today

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is it's become fashion.

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-Yeah?

-And when I was a...

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I still am the same way.

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Fashion in rock 'n' roll, to me,

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is a leather jacket and dark glasses,

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-and that's it.

-And that's it?

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That's all the fashion that you need, you know?

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You're a rebel, you know?

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But, well, fashion is one problem, Eric, but what about the kind of

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corporate side of it that Charles was talking about in the film?

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I mean, cos rock 'n' roll - perhaps less than it used to be now -

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but it certainly has been very, very big business for a few decades.

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I mean, is that part of the problem?

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The music industry, the business side of the music industry?

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I think it's inseparable from it.

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You know, rock 'n' roll is the folk music of capitalism,

0:17:440:17:48

and it's geared to success,

0:17:480:17:51

and it will always attract those people that will further its cause,

0:17:510:17:57

cos it's dealing with the hormonal issues

0:17:570:18:01

that are renewed with every generation.

0:18:010:18:05

And you know, so, that is

0:18:050:18:07

a need that must always be catered to every few years,

0:18:070:18:12

and there's money in that.

0:18:120:18:14

And I think right from the start, you know, where did it come from?

0:18:140:18:17

It came from capitalist America, you know?

0:18:170:18:20

Why did the young people of England latch onto it so readily?

0:18:200:18:26

Because they wanted a piece of the American dream.

0:18:260:18:29

Just that piece, you know.

0:18:290:18:31

-Well, speaking of America...

-I really think it's important.

0:18:310:18:34

I've got some Americans I've got to throw to now, if that's all right.

0:18:340:18:37

We're going to get the perspective of, arguably,

0:18:370:18:40

today's biggest rock band.

0:18:400:18:41

Success in mainstream rock today seems to be about

0:18:410:18:44

staying the course, and no band better exemplifies this than

0:18:440:18:47

the Foo Fighters, who've spent 20 years getting bigger and bigger.

0:18:470:18:50

We caught up with Taylor Hawkins and Dave Grohl before that accident

0:18:500:18:54

to find out what they think it means to be rock 'n' roll today.

0:18:540:18:57

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:18:570:18:59

MUSIC: Monkey Wrench by Foo Fighters

0:18:590:19:03

'In a nutshell, we've watched'

0:19:030:19:04

this band go from the van and the clubs

0:19:040:19:08

to playing stadiums

0:19:080:19:10

over the last 20 years.

0:19:100:19:12

# What have we done with innocence...? #

0:19:120:19:15

'In the early days, I loved it.

0:19:170:19:19

'I loved being in those sweaty clubs and in the theatres.'

0:19:190:19:23

Around the ten-year mark, we started playing arenas.

0:19:230:19:25

I loved it. I couldn't believe we were playing arenas.

0:19:250:19:28

I couldn't believe we'd been a band for ten years.

0:19:280:19:30

Now, we're playing stadiums. I can't believe it,

0:19:300:19:33

and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

0:19:330:19:36

I don't wish it were like it used to be.

0:19:360:19:39

# Don't wanna be your monkey wrench... #

0:19:390:19:44

'I mean, there's probably not as many young rock bands as there were'

0:19:440:19:47

maybe, 15 or 20 years ago, you know?

0:19:470:19:49

Things may have been a bit more rock-centric before,

0:19:490:19:53

'but, you know, there's still bands that I think have a rock 'n' roll

0:19:530:19:56

'attitude that might not conform to that rock 'n' roll formula.'

0:19:560:20:00

You know, I still believe that, like,

0:20:000:20:01

-the Prodigy are a rock 'n' roll band.

-Absolutely.

-You know what I mean?

0:20:010:20:04

MUSIC: The Pretender by Foo Fighters

0:20:040:20:06

# What if I say I'm not like the others...? #

0:20:060:20:09

'I mean, as far as, like, guitars and drums

0:20:090:20:11

'and there's a guy up at the mic screaming,'

0:20:110:20:13

there might not be too many of those any more.

0:20:130:20:16

There'll be more. You know, there always is.

0:20:160:20:18

-Yeah.

-I mean, because I think there's that simple...

0:20:180:20:20

It's just something that you... that kids can do -

0:20:200:20:24

be in a room together with drums and a guitar, loud,

0:20:240:20:27

and that same feeling that you get, you know,

0:20:270:20:29

that we still get the same feeling

0:20:290:20:31

if we sit in a jam room and haven't played together for a while.

0:20:310:20:35

We love it, and it's like...

0:20:350:20:36

It brings us back to that simplest form of just

0:20:360:20:39

aggression and energy and, you know, having fun.

0:20:390:20:42

You know, and I think that will always exist.

0:20:420:20:44

To Dave and Taylor, it's clear that being in a band is,

0:20:500:20:52

for want of a better word, a career, and it's something

0:20:520:20:55

that they're going to do until the rest of their gigging legs

0:20:550:20:58

fail them, but this idea is something quite recent to music.

0:20:580:21:01

I mean, Eric, when you started out,

0:21:010:21:03

did you expect to be gigging this time later?

0:21:030:21:06

I mean, it's 50 years

0:21:060:21:08

-you've been making music now.

-I never expected to live to see 30,

0:21:080:21:11

and all of my comrades that I hung out with,

0:21:110:21:16

we never, ever thought we'd see 30 years of age,

0:21:160:21:19

so anything beyond that was a gift.

0:21:190:21:24

But I go on stage, and I do an hour and a half

0:21:240:21:28

of nonstop belting with my voice,

0:21:280:21:31

and where do I get that from? How?

0:21:310:21:34

What allows me to do that?

0:21:340:21:36

The power that comes from the audience.

0:21:360:21:39

Erm, Jehnny, can I come to you? I mean, was this ever...?

0:21:390:21:43

Is this a career choice for you?

0:21:430:21:45

Are we speaking to you as your career progresses?

0:21:450:21:48

Is that how you see it, or is that an anathema to you?

0:21:480:21:51

It was a life choice, I think.

0:21:510:21:53

When I started making music, I did it for love, because I fell in love

0:21:530:21:57

with someone who was making music and I started making music with him.

0:21:570:22:00

And how is it to live that?

0:22:000:22:01

I mean, is it easy to get by as a musician these days?

0:22:010:22:05

Well, erm...

0:22:050:22:07

I mean, no.

0:22:090:22:11

I mean, how do I put it?

0:22:110:22:12

When I started making music professionally,

0:22:120:22:15

so, it was in 2007, so that's right when the crisis started

0:22:150:22:20

in the music industry, so I've never known any golden years of...

0:22:200:22:25

You know, it's only started to get better now, I think, a little bit.

0:22:250:22:28

I think I see a few changes in it.

0:22:280:22:30

So I see my generation getting, you know,

0:22:300:22:33

people from my generation getting more success and getting more

0:22:330:22:36

established, maybe, and trying to change the rules a bit,

0:22:360:22:39

changing things around, and having a bit more of a voice.

0:22:390:22:42

You know, like, me being here today, for example.

0:22:420:22:44

You talk... I mean, you've been talking a lot about

0:22:440:22:47

this kind of...the rawness.

0:22:470:22:49

And this kind of, you know, energy,

0:22:490:22:51

and obviously, you know, the band's name, Savages,

0:22:510:22:54

it seems like when you guys came along,

0:22:540:22:56

that was something that was missing -

0:22:560:22:58

-a kind of confrontational attitude.

-Oh, God, I mean...

0:22:580:23:01

I mean, I remember it. You just couldn't find it.

0:23:010:23:03

I remember going through... Being at a festival, going through the bill

0:23:030:23:06

and trying to find something angry and there was nothing there.

0:23:060:23:09

I agree. I mean, I remember before starting Savages,

0:23:090:23:12

trying to go and see gigs,

0:23:120:23:13

and going to, I don't know, events or stuff, and everything was twee.

0:23:130:23:17

Like, everything was twee... LAUGHTER

0:23:170:23:20

..and shoegazing, people were looking at their shoes,

0:23:200:23:22

their hair in their face, and twee.

0:23:220:23:25

It was... It was just boring.

0:23:250:23:27

I was dying for something to happen and when we started Savages,

0:23:270:23:30

it was definitely, like, let's do something that isn't around,

0:23:300:23:34

because we're missing that connection.

0:23:340:23:36

I mean, John, what you think of this?

0:23:360:23:38

Because it is... You know, we're talking about...

0:23:380:23:41

We've just been seeing the Foo Fighters there,

0:23:410:23:43

and you know, there's a lot of those kind of very, very big bands today,

0:23:430:23:46

that when you go to see them,

0:23:460:23:48

their gigs are fantastic experiences for the fans

0:23:480:23:51

but they are, you know, they're very polite, they're kind of pleasant.

0:23:510:23:54

They're lovely people. Should rock music be about being disagreeable?

0:23:540:24:00

Do you know what I mean? Are we losing something if we lose that?

0:24:000:24:03

Is rock 'n' roll supposed to get up people's noses?

0:24:030:24:06

To be honest, I...

0:24:060:24:08

hand on heart, I never really got the arena experience.

0:24:080:24:14

For me, that's up there with, I don't know, sport or something.

0:24:140:24:20

-It's...

-With what?

0:24:200:24:21

-Sport, or...

-Sport?

0:24:210:24:24

It doesn't, like, touch the buttons that I think

0:24:240:24:27

an intense rock 'n' roll experience ought to do.

0:24:270:24:30

There should be some kind of compression about it.

0:24:300:24:34

You know, like, under a roof, with walls,

0:24:340:24:38

and a certain amount of people outside who are disappointed

0:24:380:24:44

because they can't get in.

0:24:440:24:46

You know, and it all kind of adds to that rock 'n' roll,

0:24:460:24:50

you know, "you had to be there" experience kind of thing.

0:24:500:24:54

To some, rock 'n' roll is purely a 20th-century phenomenon -

0:24:540:24:57

a product of a time before the internet, when it was possible

0:24:570:25:01

for just one band to capture the imaginations of a generation.

0:25:010:25:05

One of the last groups lucky enough to achieve this status was Oasis.

0:25:050:25:08

We caught up with songwriter Noel Gallagher in Paris

0:25:080:25:11

for his thoughts on what's changed.

0:25:110:25:13

Viewers beware - as with anything Gallagher-related, this VT features

0:25:130:25:17

some very strong opinions and some appalling and horrendous language.

0:25:170:25:21

LAUGHTER

0:25:210:25:23

MUSIC: Rock 'n' Roll Star by Oasis

0:25:230:25:26

# Tonight, I'm a rock 'n' roll star

0:25:260:25:33

# Tonight, I'm a rock 'n' roll star... #

0:25:330:25:38

Oasis was the last band from the old world.

0:25:400:25:42

We happened before the digital age.

0:25:420:25:44

# Oh, there's no easy way out... #

0:25:440:25:46

'When somebody would say to someone in 1994,'

0:25:460:25:50

"Have you heard that Supersonic by Oasis?"

0:25:500:25:53

"Who?" "Oasis."

0:25:530:25:55

"What is it?"

0:25:550:25:56

"On the radio, it was called Supersonic. Have you heard it?"

0:25:560:25:59

"No." You had to fucking wait another week

0:25:590:26:01

before you might catch it on the radio, right.

0:26:010:26:03

# I need to be myself

0:26:030:26:08

# I can't be no-one else... #

0:26:080:26:11

'Know what happens now? Someone says, "Have you heard that song by that band Oasis?" '

0:26:110:26:15

"No, I haven't, what's it called?" "It's called Supersonic."

0:26:150:26:18

"Supersonic, let's have a look in there...

0:26:180:26:21

"There's a fucking bald guy in the band, I'm not having that. Next."

0:26:210:26:24

# Cos my friend said he'd take you home... #

0:26:240:26:28

'Cos in theory, the internet and YouTube,

0:26:280:26:30

'they should be helping bands get off the ground, but it's not.'

0:26:300:26:34

You know, it's got worse.

0:26:340:26:36

MUSIC: Don't Look Back In Anger by Oasis

0:26:360:26:38

# Slip inside the eye of your mind... #

0:26:380:26:41

The record labels are not interested in working-class bands any more.

0:26:410:26:45

'I just... We live in a different era, know what I mean?

0:26:450:26:48

'But the working-class bands are out there, but saying that, though,'

0:26:480:26:51

no-one's ever going to convince me

0:26:510:26:52

that there's a bunch of guys on a council estate

0:26:520:26:55

writing the greatest songs and they're not being discovered.

0:26:550:26:57

That's fucking nonsense.

0:26:570:26:59

# Please don't put your life in the hands

0:26:590:27:04

# Of a rock 'n' roll band

0:27:040:27:07

# Who'll throw it all away... #

0:27:070:27:10

'If there's any blame, you know, attach it to record labels.

0:27:100:27:14

'You know, if you think that'

0:27:140:27:16

the big major record labels...

0:27:160:27:18

the two biggest indie albums of the '90s,

0:27:180:27:22

which is Nevermind

0:27:220:27:23

'and Morning Glory,

0:27:230:27:26

'from the point of them being huge, the record business as a whole'

0:27:260:27:31

turned its focus on indie music and alternative music.

0:27:310:27:36

And then, they bought up all the indie labels

0:27:360:27:38

and shut them all down, and now they've moved on, you know?

0:27:380:27:42

All those people that were out there looking to discover

0:27:420:27:44

the My Bloody Valentines, and Primal Screams -

0:27:440:27:47

they're not there any more. They're doing other things,

0:27:470:27:50

probably working in fucking IT or summat.

0:27:500:27:52

# Wherever you are, I'll be on your tail

0:27:520:27:56

# Whatever you're hiding behind your veil

0:27:560:27:59

# I'll find you... #

0:27:590:28:00

So, do you think rock 'n' roll is dead, then?

0:28:000:28:02

Is that what you're saying?

0:28:020:28:03

Not as long as I'm still fucking going it's not.

0:28:030:28:05

# I'll find you... #

0:28:050:28:07

'It's there but it certainly is not the regeneration process.

0:28:070:28:12

'If you think that the last great collection of groups came out'

0:28:120:28:17

ten years after Definitely Maybe, and that was Arctic Monkeys

0:28:170:28:20

and Kasabian and Razorlight, and The Libertines and all that,

0:28:200:28:22

since then, there's been nothing. You name me one band since...

0:28:220:28:26

and that was.... so that's ten years ago.

0:28:260:28:29

Alternative music never used to go ten years

0:28:310:28:35

without regenerating itself, ever, ever.

0:28:350:28:38

It was five at the most, you know?

0:28:380:28:39

There was a five-year gap between The Jam and The Smiths,

0:28:390:28:42

and The Smiths and The Stone Roses, and The Stone Roses and Oasis.

0:28:420:28:45

You know what I mean? So...

0:28:450:28:49

the evidence is that it's kind of...

0:28:490:28:51

..it's certainly in hibernation, for sure.

0:28:520:28:55

Strong stuff from Noel Gallagher,

0:29:010:29:02

who clearly doesn't listen to my radio show!

0:29:020:29:05

And I'm going to come to you, Jehnny,

0:29:050:29:07

because there was an expletive uttered in the closing stages,

0:29:070:29:10

there, and a bit of an eye-roll.

0:29:100:29:12

I mean, do you think he's wrong?

0:29:120:29:15

Of course he's wrong! Yeah... LAUGHTER

0:29:150:29:18

I mean, yeah, of course he's wrong.

0:29:180:29:20

I mean, I understand why he's not on the cover of the NME every month

0:29:200:29:24

because, you know, if that's all they think there is.

0:29:240:29:27

But there is new music, you know.

0:29:270:29:30

But I think he, yeah...

0:29:300:29:32

I don't...I don't... I don't think he's right, but...

0:29:320:29:35

Where should you look?

0:29:350:29:36

Where is...? As he's talking about, obviously, that kind of...

0:29:360:29:39

I think he's judging on success.

0:29:390:29:41

I think he's thinking of...

0:29:410:29:43

because all the bands he's talking about

0:29:430:29:45

are bands who have reached a wide, wide audience, so I don't think...

0:29:450:29:48

-I think that's what he's talking about, basically.

-Yeah.

-Like...

0:29:480:29:51

A band that he values is rock 'n' roll reaching a very wide audience.

0:29:510:29:56

I mean, Noel talks about class there, as well, of course.

0:29:560:29:59

I mean, you guys and The Beatles,

0:29:590:30:01

you had, I think, one of the first two bands

0:30:010:30:03

-to have a number one in America, right?

-Yeah...

0:30:030:30:05

What did they make of you,

0:30:050:30:07

-a working-class kid from Newcastle?

-Well, we took a lot of flak

0:30:070:30:11

from a lot of people, being white boys playing black music,

0:30:110:30:15

to start with. But you know something, we never got that from

0:30:150:30:17

the musicians. It was always

0:30:170:30:19

the critics, it was always certain elements in the crowd.

0:30:190:30:25

But we never got that from the black musicians in America.

0:30:250:30:29

It was like, "Hey, you guys are doin' it!

0:30:290:30:33

"You're bringin' it alive again. Come on in! Jam!"

0:30:330:30:36

I mean, I met John Lee Hooker and became close friends with him.

0:30:360:30:42

He gave me his address. "When you get to America, look me up!

0:30:420:30:45

"Come and stay with me." He showed me around Detroit,

0:30:450:30:49

which is where he was living at the time.

0:30:490:30:51

And I never met a more... Not one person, but a group of people

0:30:510:30:58

that were more open, willing, loving. You know, wanting to share

0:30:580:31:04

what they had with the world, you know?

0:31:040:31:05

Amazing. John, I want to ask you, as well,

0:31:050:31:08

about Noel's thought about class. I think you once said that,

0:31:080:31:13

for you, punk was an escape route and performance was an escape route

0:31:130:31:20

or an option, in a way that perhaps it's not for kids growing up

0:31:200:31:23

these days - working-class kids.

0:31:230:31:25

I'm from a... I always figured,

0:31:250:31:29

if you are going to make it in any, kind of,

0:31:290:31:32

intuitive field of endeavour,

0:31:320:31:34

artistically or in music or something,

0:31:340:31:40

you would have to go to London.

0:31:400:31:42

And I think, you know, punk brought about a lot of independent labels

0:31:420:31:48

in the provinces, you know,

0:31:480:31:50

that provided a platform for...

0:31:500:31:53

for a lot of kids that... I think didn't exist before that.

0:31:530:31:59

Whether they exist any more, I don't know, but I don't know how any...

0:31:590:32:03

I don't know how any musician makes a living, really, now, you know.

0:32:030:32:09

I still buy CDs with the same spirit that I...

0:32:090:32:13

I'll wait an extra 45 minutes at a human cashier in a supermarket,

0:32:130:32:17

because I believe in full employment and people getting paid

0:32:170:32:22

for their work.

0:32:220:32:23

But maybe I'm eccentric this way.

0:32:230:32:27

But I can't compete with any of the stories that...

0:32:270:32:31

that Eric would have to tell about those days.

0:32:310:32:34

And I remember these times that

0:32:340:32:37

Eric is talking about, from the point of view

0:32:370:32:39

-of a punter.

-Yeah, I just wanted to get out of here.

0:32:390:32:43

-Get out of this place!

-Got to get out of this place!

0:32:430:32:46

-Got to get out of this place!

-Yeah, right.

0:32:460:32:48

-Yeah, right.

-That song spoke to me, absolutely.

0:32:480:32:51

I should have cited that song, We Gotta Get Outta This Place.

0:32:510:32:55

That was, sort of, the view of anybody that lived in the provinces

0:32:550:32:58

in the '60s, wasn't it? It was a time of great social mobility

0:32:580:33:00

for a little while.

0:33:000:33:02

Yeah, I wanted to get out of Newcastle,

0:33:020:33:04

then I wanted to get out of London. I wanted to get out of New York

0:33:040:33:06

and I ended up on the West Coast. I'm like, "Yeah! I can breathe!"

0:33:060:33:12

Jehnny, is that the life you're living? Did that ring bells?

0:33:120:33:16

I can totally relate to what they're saying.

0:33:160:33:19

This is exactly what happens when you are, like, 15 or 13.

0:33:190:33:22

I grew up in a small town in France and I can relate to that.

0:33:220:33:28

I was bored to death, but the music was what was keeping me from

0:33:280:33:32

dreaming and every week, I would wait to have enough money to buy my CD,

0:33:320:33:37

my one CD a week, and it would be... yeah, something.

0:33:370:33:41

What were you listening to?

0:33:410:33:43

When you buy the wrong one, it's really annoying, when it's shit!

0:33:430:33:46

What were you listening to? What did you grow up on?

0:33:460:33:48

Had to wait for another week. Erm...

0:33:480:33:50

I was listening to Sonic Youth, I was listening to Blonde Redhead,

0:33:500:33:54

I was listening to...erm... PJ Harvey, I was listening to.

0:33:540:33:59

And then the old stuff, as well!

0:33:590:34:00

But, I think music was a means to emancipation and, you know,

0:34:000:34:04

to growing out of where you are and becoming, you know,

0:34:040:34:10

someone else, someone, the person you are supposed to be.

0:34:100:34:13

All right. The recent BBC Four documentary series

0:34:130:34:16

Rock 'n' Roll America celebrated the music's black southern roots.

0:34:160:34:19

One of the bands currently rocking our 21st-century world is

0:34:190:34:23

Alabama Shakes, who, as their name suggests,

0:34:230:34:26

hail from this mythic region.

0:34:260:34:28

We caught up with lead singer Brittany Howard

0:34:280:34:30

to see what rock 'n' roll means to her.

0:34:300:34:33

# You got to hold on... #

0:34:400:34:47

When I think of rock 'n' roll, I don't think about somebody dressed up

0:34:470:34:50

real nice and standing still.

0:34:500:34:52

'No, I tend to think about people dancing.

0:34:520:34:54

'The pictures you see of Elvis,'

0:34:540:34:56

he's sweating, his hair's on the front of his head,

0:34:560:34:58

you know, it was hot in there, there's no air conditioning there.

0:34:580:35:01

And you're giving it all you've got.

0:35:010:35:03

# Bless my heart

0:35:030:35:05

# And bless yours too... #

0:35:050:35:07

'The cool thing about rock 'n' roll, it doesn't have to be hard, doesn't have to be difficult,'

0:35:070:35:11

it doesn't have to be super thought out. It's just fun.

0:35:110:35:14

And that's the part from rock 'n' roll that we took

0:35:140:35:17

to make this band come together.

0:35:170:35:19

# Yeah, you got to work

0:35:190:35:21

# Yeah, you got to work... #

0:35:250:35:28

'By my own definition, I'm in a rock 'n' roll band because'

0:35:280:35:32

what we do is raw and visceral and it's loud and it's attacking

0:35:320:35:35

and it's supposed to be making this connection with the audience.

0:35:350:35:39

'Kind of nice to look at something and be able to relate to it

0:35:390:35:42

'and be like, "Yeah, you know,'

0:35:420:35:43

"I'm probably not going to grow up to be a doctor

0:35:430:35:46

"and that's OK cos I've got my rock 'n' roll

0:35:460:35:48

"and it understands me and I understand it."

0:35:480:35:50

'It's the only... It's the only way.'

0:35:500:35:53

It's the only correct band to be in.

0:35:530:35:55

# Hold on. #

0:35:570:36:01

Alabama Shakes there, taking it way back home.

0:36:060:36:09

Rock 'n' roll, we mean it, man, the message, the music, the outlook,

0:36:090:36:13

it's usually antiestablishment, and from Woody Guthrie to Red Wedge,

0:36:130:36:17

it's often been used as an explicit political tool.

0:36:170:36:20

Now we're going to hear from a bunch of unlikely bedfellows,

0:36:200:36:23

Billy Bragg, Merrill Garbus of Tune-Yards and Sleaford Mods

0:36:230:36:26

ask how do you make your point in music?

0:36:260:36:29

And precisely what is that point now?

0:36:290:36:32

Well, when I first started writing music

0:36:360:36:39

there was no other way that my voice could be heard.

0:36:390:36:42

When I felt angry about the world, and it didn't necessarily be

0:36:420:36:45

political, just angry about being a teenager, you know,

0:36:450:36:49

the only medium that was open to someone like me, working-class lad,

0:36:490:36:53

'left school at 16, was to learn to play guitar,

0:36:530:36:55

'to write songs and to do gigs.'

0:36:550:36:58

# After all this it won't be the same

0:36:580:37:01

# Messing around on Salisbury Plain. #

0:37:010:37:04

'Now, if I was a 19-year-old

0:37:050:37:07

'feeling angry about the way of the world'

0:37:070:37:10

I could either start a Facebook page, you know,

0:37:100:37:13

get an argument going on Twitter,

0:37:130:37:16

'write a blog, I could even make a film with my phone.'

0:37:160:37:20

Music has lost its vanguard role as the sole social medium.

0:37:220:37:26

# No water in the water fountain... #

0:37:260:37:29

'I find that it's really hard'

0:37:290:37:31

to tell stories or be preaching

0:37:310:37:33

in a way that music in the '60s and '70s could afford to be.

0:37:330:37:38

There were very specific things that music protested,

0:37:380:37:41

the Vietnam War, you know, there were causes that were clear

0:37:410:37:44

and in the US I think that the black community has a lot to

0:37:440:37:49

clearly protest against in a way that middle-class white kids

0:37:490:37:53

aren't so clear about what they're protesting any more.

0:37:530:37:56

What happened to that,

0:37:560:37:58

that time where people weren't afraid to open their mouths, you know?

0:37:580:38:02

# The dinosaurs are stuck on Denmark Street.... #

0:38:020:38:05

'A lot of the so-called elite bands at the minute, they're all products

0:38:050:38:09

of big companies'

0:38:090:38:10

and they're just good employees, basically.

0:38:100:38:13

# ..caravan on Tiswas

0:38:130:38:14

# The dinosaurs are stuck, no way to get down... #

0:38:140:38:17

If you're some angry guitar band, you know, with lyrics

0:38:170:38:20

railing against everything, you're not going to want that much success,

0:38:200:38:23

-you're not going to want to know the industry at all.

-No.

0:38:230:38:26

-You're already doing what you want to do, which is do gigs.

-Yes.

0:38:260:38:30

So that's the issue, striking a chord with a bigger amount of people

0:38:300:38:35

is a different thing, and in some ways we seem to have done that

0:38:350:38:39

but I don't know how we did that.

0:38:390:38:41

It just seems to have happened, you know.

0:38:410:38:43

# OTT! #

0:38:430:38:50

Sleaford Mods,

0:38:520:38:54

whose no-holds-barred chronicles of modern Britain have earned them

0:38:540:38:57

a legion of fans, and a couple of enemies too - not me, though.

0:38:570:39:00

Love them. They put us in a song. Thanks very much, lads.

0:39:000:39:03

Anyway, back to the task at hand.

0:39:030:39:05

Jehnny, can rock 'n' roll change the world?

0:39:050:39:08

I think Viv Albertine from The Slits recently said that,

0:39:080:39:12

you know, you would be better off not picking up a guitar

0:39:120:39:15

if you want to protest today. Is she right?

0:39:150:39:17

I watched that interview and at the end she's asked that question,

0:39:190:39:22

is, can music be revolutionary any more?

0:39:220:39:25

And she says, "Well, if I was young today,

0:39:250:39:28

"I would become a human rights lawyer, I wouldn't pick up a guitar."

0:39:280:39:32

I didn't understand why she said that.

0:39:340:39:36

I was a bit angry, I was a bit...

0:39:360:39:41

You know, I felt it was, first, denying a little bit what she did,

0:39:410:39:48

and also saying,

0:39:480:39:52

"Well, I did it and now it's done."

0:39:520:39:54

You know, it was denying the freedom that a young girl today

0:39:540:39:58

could feel in any part of the world, like,

0:39:580:40:01

if you're not just thinking about England, the freedom a young girl

0:40:010:40:06

could feel in picking up a guitar herself and expressing herself.

0:40:060:40:09

It's interesting, isn't it? Cos with Viv,

0:40:090:40:12

I suppose what she, maybe what she's saying is,

0:40:120:40:14

you know, get your hands dirty, change the world, take direct action

0:40:140:40:18

and perhaps... Cos she's somebody that inspired me,

0:40:180:40:20

if I'd never listened to The Slits I wouldn't be sitting here,

0:40:200:40:23

and I'm sure the same goes for you but perhaps she's saying maybe

0:40:230:40:27

that just takes too long, to just, you know, to do it that way,

0:40:270:40:30

it's just not quick enough.

0:40:300:40:32

Yes, I think maybe her role would be more interesting today if she could

0:40:320:40:36

be inspiring instead of being, you know, telling that it's not worth it.

0:40:360:40:41

You know, "I've done it, you don't need to do it."

0:40:410:40:44

That's all I am saying.

0:40:440:40:46

John, do you think that rock 'n' roll always has to have a political point of view?

0:40:460:40:51

No, not at all.

0:40:510:40:53

I think rock 'n' roll is at its best when it's the vehicle

0:40:530:40:57

of either extreme pleasure

0:40:570:41:01

or extreme melancholia

0:41:010:41:05

or, I think the subjects,

0:41:050:41:08

the best subjects for rock 'n' roll are to do with instant

0:41:080:41:13

gratification, speed and sensation,

0:41:130:41:18

the sensations of life.

0:41:180:41:21

It's not a ruminative medium.

0:41:210:41:24

Somehow, I guess that's why they invented folk music.

0:41:240:41:29

LAUGHTER

0:41:290:41:30

-So, it's Johnny Kidd and the Pirates for you, Shaking All Over.

-Every time.

0:41:300:41:34

I think it's at its best and at its strongest when it's doing that,

0:41:340:41:37

when it's expressing those kind of fleeting sensations,

0:41:370:41:42

you know, that very often don't even last longer than two and a half minutes.

0:41:420:41:47

OK, Eric, we mentioned, I think briefly,

0:41:490:41:52

We Gotta Get Out Of This Place, which...

0:41:520:41:54

Now that's an exception that proves the rule. That's a very...

0:41:540:41:59

I'm not saying that it can't be the vehicle for social,

0:41:590:42:05

you know, clever social lyrics, I'm not ruling them out.

0:42:050:42:10

You know, Chuck Berry does that like nobody else, you know,

0:42:100:42:15

every note is a word.

0:42:150:42:18

If you read that aloud,

0:42:180:42:20

if you read the lyrics to a Chuck Berry song aloud,

0:42:200:42:23

you would be singing the song.

0:42:230:42:26

It doesn't leave you any other way to go.

0:42:260:42:29

That's the thing about rock 'n' roll, it shouldn't leave anything to the imagination.

0:42:290:42:33

Eric, can I ask about We Gotta Get Out Of This Place

0:42:330:42:37

because it really, it sums up that kind of world-changing ambition

0:42:370:42:41

and, as you say, that lyric is so powerful.

0:42:410:42:45

Tell me a bit about the story of that song.

0:42:450:42:47

Well, going back to the original question that you posed,

0:42:470:42:50

can rock 'n' roll change the world? rock 'n' roll has changed the world.

0:42:500:42:54

-It already has.

-It already has.

-Amen!

0:42:540:42:56

You don't have to preach politics

0:42:560:42:59

because the people pick the politics out of the meaning in the songs,

0:42:590:43:04

you know? Bob Dylan was a great exponent of that.

0:43:040:43:08

Just recently I was in Croatia.

0:43:080:43:11

They asked me to sing,

0:43:110:43:13

"Would you sing House Of The Rising Sun again one more time?"

0:43:130:43:16

"Oh, no, I'm sick of singing that," you know.

0:43:160:43:18

I got to the stage area and I had no idea what I was facing,

0:43:180:43:22

I climbed up the stairs, got on the stage, there was a microphone

0:43:220:43:26

and I hear the opening chords to House Of The Rising Sun.

0:43:260:43:30

There was 10,000 kids in the audience with guitars,

0:43:300:43:36

playing the opening sequence to House Of The Rising Sun.

0:43:360:43:40

That was going out live on TV

0:43:400:43:43

to millions, millions of people.

0:43:430:43:46

And I'll never, ever run down that song again

0:43:460:43:50

because I realised the importance of it.

0:43:500:43:53

It was helping kids to pick up a guitar and play

0:43:530:43:57

those opening chords and from there they take it on to another level.

0:43:570:44:02

You've had had many instances of that over the years, though.

0:44:020:44:05

I mean, tell me a little bit about We Gotta Get Out Of This Place

0:44:050:44:08

cos that was an anthem, that was, you know, it changed people's lives

0:44:080:44:12

and it became, it expressed something that they wanted to say.

0:44:120:44:16

It was the soldiers' anthem in Vietnam,

0:44:160:44:19

in the Middle East.

0:44:190:44:22

In every war there's been,

0:44:220:44:26

that song goes to number one

0:44:260:44:28

with the soldiers and airmen and sailors and all of that.

0:44:280:44:33

But do they get the message?

0:44:350:44:37

The message is we've got to get out of THAT place to another place.

0:44:370:44:43

Is that where you were coming from in your work with War,

0:44:430:44:47

was that very much part of that?

0:44:470:44:49

Well, yeah, we caught... We...

0:44:490:44:53

The Vietnam War went on so long

0:44:530:44:56

that we thought we would call the band War

0:44:560:45:00

to soften people's attitudes towards the war.

0:45:000:45:05

It didn't. It was a bad experiment, it backfired on us,

0:45:050:45:11

but that was the intention. And of course I went to America

0:45:110:45:15

because I wanted to be involved with black music

0:45:150:45:18

and there I was, there was my chance to be on the road with a black band

0:45:180:45:22

and learn something, and you know what I learned?

0:45:220:45:26

I learned I can't sing for diddly diddly do alongside of those guys.

0:45:260:45:31

I've got a long way to go.

0:45:310:45:33

Jehnny, do people ever misread what you guys are about,

0:45:330:45:37

what your band are about? And the message?

0:45:370:45:39

In what terms? In what way?

0:45:390:45:41

Well, in that kind of way, like they perhaps project something

0:45:410:45:44

onto you that is not a message that you're trying to convey?

0:45:440:45:49

The easy thing that they project on us because

0:45:490:45:51

we are a band of women is that we are a feminist band.

0:45:510:45:54

I think, you know, easily, I think it's a label that is a bit hard

0:45:540:46:00

to shake out or even comprehend when we started making music.

0:46:000:46:03

And that is kind of politics.

0:46:030:46:05

Feminism is politics, it's about human rights,

0:46:050:46:08

equality and everything, so that's a subject I wasn't really,

0:46:080:46:12

to be honest, I wasn't really concerned about feminism

0:46:120:46:15

but once we started to get an audience and everything

0:46:150:46:19

and journalists kept asking me, "So you're a feminist band?

0:46:190:46:22

"So you're a feminist?" And I was like, "What?" You know?

0:46:220:46:25

And then I realised that bands and artists I was listening to

0:46:250:46:29

were part of what you would call the feminist movement,

0:46:290:46:32

some more than others, and then I started to dig into it

0:46:320:46:36

and get more interested in that history and that culture

0:46:360:46:39

but I think, you know, there's this thing about

0:46:390:46:43

history catching back with you as well,

0:46:430:46:45

like you're doing something you don't really know it's a call.

0:46:450:46:48

It's a call and you're doing it but then

0:46:480:46:50

you realise you're doing something that socially has

0:46:500:46:53

a certain meaning and you have to get an answer to that.

0:46:530:46:57

I think you start hitting some walls as well.

0:46:570:46:59

You start coming up against some sexism

0:46:590:47:02

and you have to decide about feminism pretty quickly.

0:47:020:47:06

-The music industry is a sexist place.

-Yes.

0:47:060:47:08

I think the conversation about gender, I feel like it's opening up,

0:47:080:47:11

like, a lot at the moment and I quite like that conversation.

0:47:110:47:14

It is on this show cos there's me and you talking about it, which is excellent. Thank you very much.

0:47:140:47:19

Time for some more music.

0:47:190:47:21

Perhaps the one element of musical culture that can truly lay claim

0:47:210:47:25

to have inherited the mantle of rock 'n' roll is hip-hop.

0:47:250:47:28

Like rock 'n' roll, its roots are black and American

0:47:280:47:32

and for the past four decades it has annoyed parents

0:47:320:47:35

and delighted young people in equal measure.

0:47:350:47:37

The British band at the vanguard of a modern pop and hip-hop sound

0:47:370:47:41

are the Mercury-winning Young Fathers.

0:47:410:47:44

We caught up with them in an east London warehouse

0:47:440:47:47

for a performance of an intriguing song

0:47:470:47:49

related to why we are here today, Old Rock N Roll.

0:47:490:47:52

Be advised this track features the strongest of language from the very outset.

0:47:520:47:57

Oh, for fuck's sake.

0:48:010:48:04

MUSIC STARTS

0:48:040:48:06

# We living life like a bubble wrapped ape

0:48:120:48:15

# She came to mind when I treble that bass

0:48:180:48:21

# I'm tired of playing the good black

0:48:240:48:28

# I said I'm tired of playing the good black

0:48:280:48:30

# I'm tired of having to hold back

0:48:300:48:31

# I'm tired of wearing this hallmark for some evils happened a way back

0:48:310:48:34

# I'm tired of blaming the white man

0:48:370:48:39

# His indiscretions don't betray him

0:48:390:48:41

# A black man can play him

0:48:410:48:43

# Some white men are black men too

0:48:450:48:48

# Niggah to them

0:48:480:48:50

# A gentleman to you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you

0:48:500:48:54

# Some white men are black men too

0:48:540:48:57

# Some white men are black men too

0:48:570:49:00

# Some white men are black men too

0:49:000:49:03

# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way

0:49:040:49:07

# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way

0:49:070:49:10

# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way

0:49:100:49:13

# Oh-way oh-way Awake, awake, awake... #

0:49:130:49:15

'It's a song basically working'

0:49:150:49:17

backwards through the kind of viewpoint that it has today,

0:49:170:49:21

rock 'n' roll, in kind of stereotypes

0:49:210:49:24

and racial prejudices that have come with it.

0:49:240:49:26

# God forsaking no good do-gooder

0:49:260:49:28

# It's all out Out in the open... #

0:49:300:49:32

'It's the associations with colour'

0:49:320:49:34

and personal experiences, you know,

0:49:340:49:37

"Tired of playing the good black, tired of having to hold back,

0:49:370:49:40

"tired of wearing this hallmark for some evils that happened way back,"

0:49:400:49:44

you know, what I'm saying is

0:49:440:49:46

tired of having the feeling that the world is on my shoulders

0:49:460:49:50

as a black person, as a black man, and

0:49:500:49:53

'me having to accommodate a role.'

0:49:530:49:56

# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way

0:49:570:50:00

# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way oh-way... #

0:50:000:50:03

'By the time the song ends, it ends up back in Congo Square

0:50:030:50:06

'where... It was the first place in New Orleans where'

0:50:060:50:10

-they allowed the slaves to play music.

-It was every Sunday.

0:50:100:50:13

So that's like, yeah...

0:50:130:50:14

Probably where rock 'n' roll came from in the first place.

0:50:140:50:18

# Old rock n roll

0:50:210:50:23

# Not what you've been sold

0:50:230:50:26

# Congo Square is open for business

0:50:260:50:30

# I was there as God is my witness

0:50:300:50:32

# There you fucking go

0:50:320:50:35

# So there you fucking go

0:50:350:50:38

# Go go go go go

0:50:390:50:42

# Go go go go go

0:50:420:50:45

# Oh oh oh oh oh

0:50:450:50:47

# Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh

0:50:470:50:51

-# Ooh

-Ah

0:50:510:50:53

-# Ooh

-Ah

0:50:550:50:57

-# Ooh

-Ah

0:50:570:51:00

# Ooh... #

0:51:000:51:02

'People that run places of power,

0:51:020:51:04

'they're not using that rock 'n' roll attitude any more.'

0:51:040:51:07

It's a business model. It's a lucrative market.

0:51:070:51:10

'Rock 'n' roll is antiestablishment

0:51:100:51:13

'but now the establishment is using rock 'n' roll now and again'

0:51:130:51:16

to market it and that's...

0:51:160:51:18

-Using it for something else.

-Using it for something else.

0:51:180:51:21

-They cleaned it up.

-To seem like rebellion but it's not really rebellion.

-It's controlled.

0:51:210:51:25

It's very controlled rebellion. I suppose the people in power...

0:51:250:51:29

It's a very kind of smart brainwashing move,

0:51:290:51:32

if you know what I mean, but...

0:51:320:51:34

A sense of freedom when there's none.

0:51:340:51:36

A sense of freedom when there isn't.

0:51:360:51:38

Old Rock N Roll, an oblique take on the history

0:51:480:51:51

of slavery, racial stereotypes and the black origins of rock 'n' roll,

0:51:510:51:54

there, from the amazing Young Fathers.

0:51:540:51:56

Now, for me, Young Fathers show one way to be rock 'n' roll now.

0:51:560:52:00

They push the boundaries both musically and aesthetically.

0:52:000:52:03

John, what did you make of them?

0:52:030:52:05

I didn't hear all their lyrics, to be honest

0:52:050:52:08

but I'm always interested in outfits like that,

0:52:080:52:10

you know, that blur the edges

0:52:100:52:12

and that was a rocking kind of noise and it was incensed

0:52:120:52:16

and, like you said when you introduced it,

0:52:160:52:19

they mean it, man,

0:52:190:52:21

but I'll have to come back to you on the lyrics.

0:52:210:52:23

I didn't get lyric one but that ain't a bad sign.

0:52:230:52:26

That's a good sign.

0:52:260:52:28

I get angry on stage.

0:52:280:52:30

I get that angry for five minutes.

0:52:300:52:33

Express myself,

0:52:340:52:36

then I back down because I realise I can't stay there

0:52:360:52:40

and I realise that I don't belong there

0:52:400:52:44

and I would stretch it and say...

0:52:440:52:48

That's not rock 'n' roll.

0:52:480:52:50

It's something else altogether.

0:52:500:52:53

It's morphed into another creature

0:52:530:52:58

because, to me, rock 'n' roll has to have a...

0:52:580:53:03

It's synthetic discordant dance music

0:53:030:53:08

with lyrics that you can relate to

0:53:080:53:11

and I can't relate to that.

0:53:110:53:15

I'm sorry. That's the truth.

0:53:150:53:18

That's funny, because, when you gave that list,

0:53:180:53:20

I'm like... Because I know their record, I'm like, "Yes, yes, yes."

0:53:200:53:24

You know, they do all of those things for me.

0:53:240:53:28

It's a point of view thing.

0:53:280:53:30

I don't know. I just...

0:53:310:53:34

It's not Chuck Berry.

0:53:340:53:36

It's not Jerry Lee Lewis.

0:53:360:53:37

It's not Ray Charles.

0:53:370:53:39

It's not Bo Diddley.

0:53:390:53:41

But it's not trying to be any of those things.

0:53:410:53:43

That's the point, isn't it?

0:53:430:53:44

You know, those guys aren't trying to be Jerry Lee Lewis or Sam Cooke,

0:53:440:53:48

they're doing something new.

0:53:480:53:50

They're doing something different and that's the point.

0:53:500:53:52

It was the same with the punks.

0:53:520:53:53

I didn't like punk music

0:53:530:53:55

but I agreed with what they were saying.

0:53:550:53:57

Somebody had to kick the door in and they did.

0:53:570:54:01

I think what Eric's saying, correct me if I'm incorrect, Eric,

0:54:010:54:04

I think you're saying what this stuff lacks is the light touch.

0:54:040:54:09

-Yeah.

-You know, the light touch.

0:54:090:54:12

You know, to be honest,

0:54:120:54:14

there's nothing more hilarious

0:54:140:54:17

than unrelenting tragedy.

0:54:170:54:19

AUDIENCE LAUGHS

0:54:190:54:21

Jehnny, I'm going to bring you in here.

0:54:210:54:24

Jehnny, I'm going to bring you in and ask,

0:54:240:54:27

what is it that you want people to feel when they hear your music?

0:54:270:54:31

It depends.

0:54:310:54:32

When we started Savages,

0:54:330:54:35

personally, I was quite angry about a lot of things

0:54:350:54:39

and I'm still angry about a lot of things

0:54:390:54:41

but I was very defensive

0:54:410:54:43

and I was like a boxer going into the ring

0:54:430:54:45

and I enjoyed that very much and I still enjoy it

0:54:450:54:49

and I think you can, you know, have your energy,

0:54:490:54:52

you know, kind of expressing yourself that way

0:54:520:54:56

and stage is for that, as well.

0:54:560:54:58

Like, getting all your darkness, you know, and your...

0:54:580:55:02

-But it doesn't mean you're not a happy person.

-But, in doing so,

0:55:020:55:07

you don't want to add to the sum total of human misery.

0:55:070:55:11

Yeah, I...

0:55:110:55:13

You know, after all,

0:55:130:55:14

you are asking people to buy a ticket.

0:55:140:55:18

JEHNNY LAUGHS

0:55:180:55:19

I agree. Exactly.

0:55:190:55:21

And I think, also, what kind of person are you?

0:55:210:55:24

Hopefully, you're doing this to become someone, you know...

0:55:240:55:28

Not a pain in the arse, you know?

0:55:280:55:30

You're doing this to become someone that is...

0:55:300:55:36

you know, funny, or, I don't know, interesting,

0:55:360:55:38

has travelled all around the world and has seen things

0:55:380:55:41

and you're becoming someone maybe a bit better

0:55:410:55:43

than you were when you started, so that should show.

0:55:430:55:46

I think that maybe that's what I understand

0:55:460:55:48

from what these guys are saying,

0:55:480:55:50

although I should have brought my sunglasses maybe.

0:55:500:55:52

It served its purpose.

0:55:520:55:55

It woke us up.

0:55:550:55:57

-Exactly.

-It's got us heated up.

-That's it.

0:55:570:55:59

When I met Ian MacKaye for the first time,

0:55:590:56:01

so who was in Fugazi, I don't know if you're familiar with Fugazi

0:56:010:56:05

or if you would call it rock 'n' roll,

0:56:050:56:06

I would definitely say it's rock 'n' roll,

0:56:060:56:08

and he told me, when I said to him as a fan, I said,

0:56:080:56:12

"You changed my life," and, when I said to him that, he said,

0:56:120:56:16

"Well, I started making music because... For the same reason.

0:56:160:56:21

"I was touched by the same thing, so for me to pass it along

0:56:210:56:24

"is exactly what it should be doing."

0:56:240:56:28

Live for ever, that should be the message.

0:56:280:56:31

Live for ever.

0:56:310:56:33

That's the perfect place to leave it. Thank you so much, guys.

0:56:330:56:36

Thank you. Well, I think we've proved that,

0:56:360:56:38

in this marvellous hour, rock 'n' roll's still very much alive

0:56:380:56:42

and what a fantastic hour it's been.

0:56:420:56:44

Thank you so much to my brilliant, brilliant guests.

0:56:440:56:47

Eric, John, Jehnny, thank you very, very much.

0:56:470:56:50

Thank you to our audience here at The 100 Club. Cheers, everyone.

0:56:500:56:54

Thank you.

0:56:590:57:00

Well, it seems that, as long as rock 'n' roll has the power

0:57:040:57:07

to cause an argument, there's life in the old dog yet.

0:57:070:57:09

I'm going to leave you with some more thoughts on its future.

0:57:090:57:11

Goodnight.

0:57:110:57:13

Whatever kind of social or political function,

0:57:240:57:27

like, rock 'n' roll achieved

0:57:270:57:29

is probably being made right now in a different country

0:57:290:57:34

in a different genre of music that you have no idea about.

0:57:340:57:37

I think that's kind of what we're waiting for,

0:57:400:57:42

is another generation of people to reflect it in a different way.

0:57:420:57:46

All it takes is one band with one great song.

0:57:500:57:54

That's it.

0:57:540:57:55

Someone's always doing it. Someone's always keeping that tradition alive.

0:57:580:58:01

Rock 'n' roll is one of those traditions that'll never die.

0:58:010:58:04

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