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This programme contains some strong language | 0:00:02 | 0:00:07 | |
MUSIC: Figure It Out by Royal Blood | 0:00:07 | 0:00:10 | |
At Glastonbury last month, | 0:00:10 | 0:00:11 | |
Kanye West claimed to be the number one rock star on the planet. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:15 | |
But is that a title still worth having? | 0:00:15 | 0:00:17 | |
With festivals running short of rock bands big enough to headline, | 0:00:17 | 0:00:20 | |
cherished venues closing to make way for chichi apartments, | 0:00:20 | 0:00:23 | |
once beloved music papers becoming freebies. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
We were told rock 'n' roll would never die, | 0:00:26 | 0:00:28 | |
but, at 60 years old, is it starting to look its age? | 0:00:28 | 0:00:31 | |
Tonight we're going to do something different on BBC Four | 0:00:31 | 0:00:34 | |
and discuss rock 'n' roll's rich tapestry | 0:00:34 | 0:00:36 | |
from a defiantly 21st-century perspective. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:39 | |
Over the course of the next hour, | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
I'll be hearing from a host of great musicians as we ask | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
exactly what the hell rock 'n' roll means today | 0:00:44 | 0:00:46 | |
and whether it can still be genuinely subversive and dangerous. | 0:00:46 | 0:00:51 | |
MUSIC: You Can't Catch Me by Chuck Berry | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
# Gone like a cool breeze. # | 0:00:53 | 0:00:56 | |
To me, rock 'n' roll music means | 0:00:56 | 0:00:59 | |
this straightforward chug-a-lug boogie music. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:02 | |
And it's fast and it's in your face and it's visceral. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:06 | |
I just felt, as a kid, that it was available to me, like, | 0:01:09 | 0:01:14 | |
I'm going to try and play guitar. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
To me, it means freedom of spirit. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:19 | |
And a spirit. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:20 | |
It's not really a sound, not a leather jacket, | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
it's not about being cool | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
and yet, again, it's about all those things. | 0:01:25 | 0:01:27 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:01:38 | 0:01:39 | |
Welcome. Welcome to London's legendary 100 Club, | 0:01:39 | 0:01:44 | |
a rock 'n' roll stalwart that first opened its doors in 1942 | 0:01:44 | 0:01:48 | |
as a jazz club that played host to American big-band leaders, | 0:01:48 | 0:01:51 | |
like Benny Goodman. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
Since then, it has been a Ground Zero for many a musical movement, | 0:01:53 | 0:01:57 | |
from Trad-Jazz in the '50s to Punk in the '70s. | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
Anybody who was anybody has been up on that stage behind me, | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
from Macca and The Stones to Sleaford Mods. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:06 | |
Where better to take the temperature of rock 'n' roll? | 0:02:06 | 0:02:10 | |
Joining me for some R and R face time today | 0:02:10 | 0:02:12 | |
are three fantastic panellists, | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
each one representing a different facet of the rock 'n' roll diamond. | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
Let's start with the lead singer of Savages, a band | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
full of blistering intensity at the cutting edge of modern rock, | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
whose performances are as primal as their name suggests. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:28 | |
MUSIC DROWNS SPEECH | 0:02:28 | 0:02:29 | |
-Jehnny Beth, welcome. -APPLAUSE | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
-Thank you. -Hello. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
CHEERING | 0:02:37 | 0:02:38 | |
Joining Jehnny, a gentleman who really needs no introduction. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:43 | |
In fact, I'm not sure there is | 0:02:43 | 0:02:45 | |
a more rock 'n' roll being in existence. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:47 | |
He's an icon of the punk era, a poet, you know it. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:50 | |
-APPLAUSE -Hire car, hire car. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
Why would anybody buy a car? | 0:02:52 | 0:02:53 | |
Bang it, prang it, say ta-ta. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:56 | |
It's a hire car, baby. | 0:02:56 | 0:02:57 | |
It is the Bard of Salford himself, Dr John Cooper Clarke. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:01 | |
APPLAUSE AND CHEERING | 0:03:01 | 0:03:03 | |
-Hello. -CHEERING | 0:03:03 | 0:03:06 | |
Completing our million-dollar quarter is a true legend | 0:03:10 | 0:03:12 | |
from deep within rock 'n' roll's gilded halls. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
In the mid-'60s, he went brothel-creeping | 0:03:15 | 0:03:17 | |
in New Orleans in The Animals. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:19 | |
# There is a house in New Orleans | 0:03:19 | 0:03:23 | |
# They call the Rising Sun | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
# And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy | 0:03:31 | 0:03:35 | |
# And God, I know, I'm one. # | 0:03:36 | 0:03:40 | |
The mighty Beatles knew him better as The Egg Man. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:43 | |
Yes, it is the one and only Eric Burdon, welcome. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:46 | |
APPLAUSE AND CHEERING | 0:03:46 | 0:03:47 | |
Rock 'n' roll means many things to many people. | 0:03:50 | 0:03:52 | |
It's an attitude, an adjective and way of life. | 0:03:52 | 0:03:56 | |
Let's kick off by asking our panel what it means to them | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
and if you guys could share your first rock 'n' roll memory with us. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
Eric, what was your rock 'n' roll awakening? | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
I went to see a movie called, er, Baby Doll. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
They had this title music called Shame, Shame, Shame by Smiley Lewis | 0:04:09 | 0:04:15 | |
and that one track set up the whole... | 0:04:15 | 0:04:19 | |
MUSIC: Shame, Shame, Shame by Smiley Lewis | 0:04:19 | 0:04:21 | |
...play that was about to happen on the screen. | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
And that got me interested. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:26 | |
John, what about you? What does rock 'n' roll mean to you? | 0:04:26 | 0:04:29 | |
My first experience of rock 'n' roll in a... | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
in any potent way, I guess, was at fairgrounds. | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
They had better sound systems than you could possibly afford | 0:04:37 | 0:04:42 | |
and, er... | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
they had access, for some reason, | 0:04:44 | 0:04:46 | |
to all the latest stateside hits. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:51 | |
That was where you came in, OK. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:52 | |
Jehnny, what turned you on to rock 'n' roll? | 0:04:52 | 0:04:55 | |
I think there would be a list of things, | 0:04:55 | 0:04:58 | |
but one I remember is seeing Wings of Desire | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
by Wim Wenders and... | 0:05:01 | 0:05:04 | |
and I remember that scene when Rowland S Howard is stepping onstage | 0:05:04 | 0:05:07 | |
like a wild animal and doing circles like that | 0:05:07 | 0:05:11 | |
and he's filmed from the back and... | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
I don't know, something about that scene that, you know, | 0:05:14 | 0:05:18 | |
really turned me on. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:20 | |
-LAUGHTER -The primal power? -Yeah. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:22 | |
In film, as well. Interesting. There's a simpatico developing | 0:05:22 | 0:05:25 | |
-already between you two. -Yeah, it's quite interesting. -I like it. -Mm. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:28 | |
OK. OK, well, time for some actual rock 'n' roll. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:32 | |
Matthew E White is a Virginian songwriter and producer whose album, | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
Fresh Blood, was released to broad acclaim earlier this year. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
Now, the album's standout track is the intriguingly titled | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
Rock and Roll Is Cold, an allusion to what Matthew sees | 0:05:41 | 0:05:45 | |
as rock 'n' roll's post-millennial crisis. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:47 | |
We caught up with him for an exclusive performance | 0:05:47 | 0:05:50 | |
at the BBC's Maida Vale studios and demanded that he explain himself. | 0:05:50 | 0:05:54 | |
MATTHEW WHISPERS: One, two, three. | 0:05:56 | 0:05:58 | |
# You said you found the soul of rock and roll | 0:06:03 | 0:06:06 | |
# You said you found the soul of rock and roll | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
# 'Ey, 'ey, rock and roll, it don't have no soul | 0:06:11 | 0:06:15 | |
# Everybody knows that now | 0:06:17 | 0:06:19 | |
# Everyone knows | 0:06:19 | 0:06:22 | |
# Everybody knows that rock and roll is cold | 0:06:23 | 0:06:26 | |
# You said you found the key to R&B | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
# You said you found the key to R&B | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
# 'Ey, 'ey, R&B, it don't have no key | 0:06:39 | 0:06:44 | |
# Everybody gets that now | 0:06:45 | 0:06:47 | |
# Everyone sees | 0:06:47 | 0:06:48 | |
# Everybody sees that R&B is free. # | 0:06:51 | 0:06:53 | |
I think, first and foremost, it's a... It's fun. You know? | 0:06:57 | 0:07:01 | |
It's not meant to be a particularly serious record in some ways. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:07 | |
Rock 'n' roll came from the black American experience | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
and it has kind of journeyed on from there. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
It's gone past that and... | 0:07:13 | 0:07:15 | |
I think that song kind of celebrates those routes in some way, | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
you know, R&B music and gospel music. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:23 | |
# You said you found the trick to gospel lyrics. # | 0:07:23 | 0:07:27 | |
'I think there's been a way that those genres have stayed very alive' | 0:07:27 | 0:07:31 | |
and vibrant to me in a way that sometimes rock 'n' roll hasn't done | 0:07:31 | 0:07:35 | |
the best job of and there's been times in rock 'n' roll's history | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
where it's become a bit of a caricature of itself | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
and sort of bloated in that way. And it hasn't aged particularly well. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:47 | |
The song kind of touches on that stuff. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
# Everybody gets the gospel lyrics are gifts. # | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
'Rock 'n' roll is a music that is built off of copying. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
'It's not the original source material.' | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry and things like that | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
are the original source material and | 0:08:03 | 0:08:06 | |
it's tough to mine that effectively and creatively | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
kind of at the same level each...each generation. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:14 | |
# Everybody likes to talk | 0:08:16 | 0:08:18 | |
# Everybody likes to talk shit, 'ey, 'ey. # | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
I think rock 'n' roll will lose its footing | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
as the sort of... Well, it already has, | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
as the sort of the centrepiece of, like... | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
the music of the culture. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:33 | |
'But it's still important, it's still important music | 0:08:33 | 0:08:36 | |
'and it's still important art. I just think it becomes...' | 0:08:36 | 0:08:40 | |
maybe in a healthy way, it becomes more | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
removed from the mainstream. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
# Ooh la la la, ooh la | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
# Everybody likes to talk | 0:08:49 | 0:08:51 | |
# Everybody likes to talk shit, 'ey, 'ey. # | 0:08:51 | 0:08:53 | |
GUITAR RIFF | 0:09:05 | 0:09:07 | |
SONG ENDS | 0:09:07 | 0:09:08 | |
THEY LAUGH Oops. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:12 | |
Now, Matthew basically opens the can of worms there, | 0:09:15 | 0:09:17 | |
as to why we're here today, suggesting that rock 'n' roll | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
has become a cliche in danger of repeating itself. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
John, I'm going to start with you. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:25 | |
So Matthew talked about the fact that | 0:09:25 | 0:09:26 | |
from the outset, it was a derivative form. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:28 | |
-I mean, what do you think about that? -It was... -Is that a problem? | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
I think it's a derivative form of a derivative form | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
of a derivative form. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:37 | |
It seems to be like a force of nature, you know, rock 'n' roll. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:42 | |
You know, country music feeds into it. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
It's not just the blues, it's equal parts. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
-Appalachian and folk. -Appalachian, you know. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:51 | |
Well, Elvis, you know. All things to all men, eh? | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
Everybody in the world claims ownership of Elvis. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:58 | |
I'm being a bit serious about it, but rock 'n' roll, | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
you know it when you hear it. You know what is | 0:10:01 | 0:10:03 | |
and you know what isn't rock 'n' roll. And it's... | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
And as for rock 'n' roll repeating itself, | 0:10:06 | 0:10:08 | |
it's been repeating itself since it was even given a name. | 0:10:08 | 0:10:13 | |
Jehnny, you were nodding when John was speaking there, | 0:10:13 | 0:10:16 | |
nodding about the fact that rock's been repeating itself | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
since the very beginning. Why? | 0:10:19 | 0:10:21 | |
Yeah, because I like that idea of... | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
The way I see it is like a big ball, giant ball rolling down a hill | 0:10:23 | 0:10:27 | |
and picking up people as it goes along and in forming itself, | 0:10:27 | 0:10:32 | |
the past and future and present, in forming itself in that process. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:36 | |
And I see it like a giant family, as well. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:40 | |
I think when you, as you said, when you're young, | 0:10:40 | 0:10:43 | |
it kind of touches your soul and your heart | 0:10:43 | 0:10:45 | |
and you find a new family, it becomes your family. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
And when you meet like-minded people, | 0:10:48 | 0:10:51 | |
who have been touched by the same thing, | 0:10:51 | 0:10:53 | |
which you can't really explain what it is... | 0:10:53 | 0:10:55 | |
Is it a sexual thing? Is it a...is it a spiritual thing? | 0:10:55 | 0:10:59 | |
Is it a physical...? It could be many things, | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
but you find yourself part of something bigger than yourself | 0:11:02 | 0:11:06 | |
and it gives you a belief in your life. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:07 | |
It's almost like church, you know. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
So it sounds like you disagree with Matthew E White. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
It's anything but cold, it's very much alive and vibrant. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
God, yeah! I mean, I don't... Yeah, I don't know. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
I don't think it's cold. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:19 | |
When it turns cold, something's got wrong. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
Eric, you know, this is the music | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
that...this derivative form that we're talking about, | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
was it your generation that stole it first, would you say? | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
What...you know? What did you grow up on? | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
What kind of music really turned you on to rock 'n' roll? | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
And how did you adapt your influences into something new? | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
-Something of your own. -Well, it was liberation. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
It liberated me from my boring childhood in Newcastle. | 0:11:41 | 0:11:48 | |
And I was lucky enough to get into art school | 0:11:48 | 0:11:52 | |
and I met a lot of like-minded people in art school. And... | 0:11:52 | 0:11:57 | |
we started to dig into the history, | 0:11:57 | 0:12:01 | |
via books and recordings | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
and found out that it was the underground, | 0:12:04 | 0:12:09 | |
it was the black underground in the United States and that it... | 0:12:09 | 0:12:15 | |
rock 'n' roll originally meant sexuality, you know. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:19 | |
"To rock you, baby, all night long" didn't mean you were taking your | 0:12:19 | 0:12:22 | |
little nephew and rocking him all night long, you know what I mean? | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
It had a whole lot of connotations, but it was... | 0:12:26 | 0:12:31 | |
it was the black underground spirit | 0:12:31 | 0:12:34 | |
that came out of slavery in the South. | 0:12:34 | 0:12:38 | |
Right, well, if rock 'n' roll is a closed book, | 0:12:38 | 0:12:41 | |
a sort of 20th-century period piece, then who damn well wrote it? | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
Many decades before the NME became a free sheet, there existed | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
a healthy hinterland industry known as rock 'n' roll criticism. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
Writers could make a fairly decent living and, | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
if you were especially talented, you were feted for your work. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
We caught up with the doyen of rock criticism, | 0:12:56 | 0:12:58 | |
the music writer's writer, | 0:12:58 | 0:13:00 | |
Charles Shaar Murray, on a sentimental stroll | 0:13:00 | 0:13:02 | |
around London's Denmark Street, once better-known as Tin Pan Alley. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:06 | |
# One, two, three, whoo! # | 0:13:09 | 0:13:11 | |
ROCK MUSIC PLAYS | 0:13:11 | 0:13:13 | |
Rock 'n' roll was a new music. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:21 | |
When I first heard The Who, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:22 | |
particularly things like My Generation, Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere, | 0:13:22 | 0:13:27 | |
I thought, "They're saying what I feel. This is my music." | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
"This speaks to me. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:32 | |
"And to older people, it's just going to sound like this horrible noise, | 0:13:32 | 0:13:36 | |
"but I know what it is and I know what it means." | 0:13:36 | 0:13:39 | |
# Why don't you all f...fade away? | 0:13:39 | 0:13:41 | |
# Talking 'bout my generation | 0:13:41 | 0:13:43 | |
# Yeah, don't try to dig what we all s...say. | 0:13:43 | 0:13:47 | |
# Talking 'bout my generation.. # | 0:13:47 | 0:13:49 | |
'Zooming forward, you know, you have the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame, | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
'you have people teaching courses in rock 'n' roll at universities. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:57 | |
MUSIC: Don't Look Back Into The Sun by The Libertines | 0:13:57 | 0:13:59 | |
'You have Pete Townshend touring at the age of 70 and, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
'for younger listeners, I can't imagine | 0:14:03 | 0:14:07 | |
'that this is anything other than somewhat intimidating.' | 0:14:07 | 0:14:11 | |
It's harder and harder to do something new | 0:14:11 | 0:14:13 | |
when there's so much history to work with. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
What do you do? | 0:14:16 | 0:14:18 | |
It's not my problem any more, | 0:14:18 | 0:14:20 | |
but I'd like to hear what the youth think about it. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:22 | |
Peace. | 0:14:22 | 0:14:24 | |
SONG ENDS | 0:14:24 | 0:14:25 | |
So, Jehnny, Charles there. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:32 | |
A bit of a kiss-off there, as in, you know, | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
rock 'n' roll is weighed down by its own history. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
Do you think he's right? | 0:14:36 | 0:14:38 | |
Well, it's interesting. When you talk about the death of rock 'n' roll, | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
because it's a thing that seems to happen every ten years, almost, | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
it's a cyclical thing and I think the death of rock 'n' roll | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
is the essence of rock 'n' roll, because you want... | 0:14:48 | 0:14:52 | |
What you want rock 'n' roll to be is you want it to be pure, | 0:14:52 | 0:14:56 | |
you know, authentic, ephemeral. | 0:14:56 | 0:14:58 | |
And, by killing it, you know, you ensure its renaissance. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:02 | |
I went to an interview of Greil Marcus... | 0:15:02 | 0:15:06 | |
a journalist, erm, writer from the '60s, and he... | 0:15:06 | 0:15:10 | |
And I saw that interview a few weeks ago, | 0:15:10 | 0:15:13 | |
and he was saying something about that the first time | 0:15:13 | 0:15:18 | |
he heard that rock 'n' roll was dead was in 1957, | 0:15:18 | 0:15:21 | |
and it keeps going... | 0:15:21 | 0:15:23 | |
He said this quote, that for music was really good, | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
he said, "I've been to the funeral several times, | 0:15:26 | 0:15:28 | |
"and the corpse keeps standing up and walking away." | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
And also, I think, for my generation, | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
it's really interesting to hear things like that. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
It always surprises me when people say, | 0:15:35 | 0:15:37 | |
"Oh, everything has been done. What are you going to do now?" | 0:15:37 | 0:15:39 | |
And as if I was born at the wrong time, you know? | 0:15:39 | 0:15:43 | |
As if everything has happened before I was born, and now I'm here, | 0:15:43 | 0:15:48 | |
and it's over, girl. Like, you can't do anything. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:50 | |
It sounds like that puts a bit of fire in your belly, though, | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
-when people say that to you. -It does a bit. -"Oh, it's all done. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
-"It's all been done before." -It does a bit, yeah. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
It's a bit unfair, isn't it? Like, as if my parents had the best time | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
and I will never have the same time as they had, you know? | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
It's like, well, you don't know about my present time, and I'm... | 0:16:04 | 0:16:09 | |
I think music, and especially rock 'n' roll, is putting a mirror, | 0:16:09 | 0:16:11 | |
you know, to what's happening now, | 0:16:11 | 0:16:13 | |
and you can still talk to people, what's happening. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
I mean, we live under a quite crazy time, you know, still. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:20 | |
And what about you guys? | 0:16:20 | 0:16:21 | |
You must have heard rock 'n' roll is dead | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
-a few times over the years. -You can only invent something once. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
Can't you? And after that, if it's... And that is a great... | 0:16:29 | 0:16:31 | |
and rock 'n' roll is a great invention. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:34 | |
But I think the big danger with rock 'n' roll was that it | 0:16:34 | 0:16:37 | |
came in the late '60s, when, I think when, which...it's my pet hate... | 0:16:37 | 0:16:42 | |
when technical expertise became paramount. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:48 | |
I think the main thing about rock 'n' roll is | 0:16:48 | 0:16:50 | |
that the musicians shouldn't get any better. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:53 | |
You know, Chuck Berry is as bad a guitar player now as he ever was. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:58 | |
It's part of his charm. | 0:16:58 | 0:17:00 | |
That's why he's still doing shows all over the world. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
The problem that I have with rock 'n' roll today | 0:17:02 | 0:17:05 | |
is it's become fashion. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:07 | |
-Yeah? -And when I was a... | 0:17:07 | 0:17:10 | |
I still am the same way. | 0:17:10 | 0:17:13 | |
Fashion in rock 'n' roll, to me, | 0:17:13 | 0:17:15 | |
is a leather jacket and dark glasses, | 0:17:15 | 0:17:18 | |
-and that's it. -And that's it? | 0:17:18 | 0:17:19 | |
That's all the fashion that you need, you know? | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
You're a rebel, you know? | 0:17:22 | 0:17:24 | |
But, well, fashion is one problem, Eric, but what about the kind of | 0:17:24 | 0:17:27 | |
corporate side of it that Charles was talking about in the film? | 0:17:27 | 0:17:29 | |
I mean, cos rock 'n' roll - perhaps less than it used to be now - | 0:17:29 | 0:17:33 | |
but it certainly has been very, very big business for a few decades. | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
I mean, is that part of the problem? | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
The music industry, the business side of the music industry? | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
I think it's inseparable from it. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:44 | |
You know, rock 'n' roll is the folk music of capitalism, | 0:17:44 | 0:17:48 | |
and it's geared to success, | 0:17:48 | 0:17:51 | |
and it will always attract those people that will further its cause, | 0:17:51 | 0:17:57 | |
cos it's dealing with the hormonal issues | 0:17:57 | 0:18:01 | |
that are renewed with every generation. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:05 | |
And you know, so, that is | 0:18:05 | 0:18:07 | |
a need that must always be catered to every few years, | 0:18:07 | 0:18:12 | |
and there's money in that. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:14 | |
And I think right from the start, you know, where did it come from? | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
It came from capitalist America, you know? | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
Why did the young people of England latch onto it so readily? | 0:18:20 | 0:18:26 | |
Because they wanted a piece of the American dream. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:29 | |
Just that piece, you know. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:31 | |
-Well, speaking of America... -I really think it's important. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:34 | |
I've got some Americans I've got to throw to now, if that's all right. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:37 | |
We're going to get the perspective of, arguably, | 0:18:37 | 0:18:40 | |
today's biggest rock band. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:41 | |
Success in mainstream rock today seems to be about | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
staying the course, and no band better exemplifies this than | 0:18:44 | 0:18:47 | |
the Foo Fighters, who've spent 20 years getting bigger and bigger. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:50 | |
We caught up with Taylor Hawkins and Dave Grohl before that accident | 0:18:50 | 0:18:54 | |
to find out what they think it means to be rock 'n' roll today. | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 0:18:57 | 0:18:59 | |
MUSIC: Monkey Wrench by Foo Fighters | 0:18:59 | 0:19:03 | |
'In a nutshell, we've watched' | 0:19:03 | 0:19:04 | |
this band go from the van and the clubs | 0:19:04 | 0:19:08 | |
to playing stadiums | 0:19:08 | 0:19:10 | |
over the last 20 years. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:12 | |
# What have we done with innocence...? # | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
'In the early days, I loved it. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:19 | |
'I loved being in those sweaty clubs and in the theatres.' | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
Around the ten-year mark, we started playing arenas. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:25 | |
I loved it. I couldn't believe we were playing arenas. | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
I couldn't believe we'd been a band for ten years. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:30 | |
Now, we're playing stadiums. I can't believe it, | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
I don't wish it were like it used to be. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
# Don't wanna be your monkey wrench... # | 0:19:39 | 0:19:44 | |
'I mean, there's probably not as many young rock bands as there were' | 0:19:44 | 0:19:47 | |
maybe, 15 or 20 years ago, you know? | 0:19:47 | 0:19:49 | |
Things may have been a bit more rock-centric before, | 0:19:49 | 0:19:53 | |
'but, you know, there's still bands that I think have a rock 'n' roll | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
'attitude that might not conform to that rock 'n' roll formula.' | 0:19:56 | 0:20:00 | |
You know, I still believe that, like, | 0:20:00 | 0:20:01 | |
-the Prodigy are a rock 'n' roll band. -Absolutely. -You know what I mean? | 0:20:01 | 0:20:04 | |
MUSIC: The Pretender by Foo Fighters | 0:20:04 | 0:20:06 | |
# What if I say I'm not like the others...? # | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
'I mean, as far as, like, guitars and drums | 0:20:09 | 0:20:11 | |
'and there's a guy up at the mic screaming,' | 0:20:11 | 0:20:13 | |
there might not be too many of those any more. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
There'll be more. You know, there always is. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:18 | |
-Yeah. -I mean, because I think there's that simple... | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
It's just something that you... that kids can do - | 0:20:20 | 0:20:24 | |
be in a room together with drums and a guitar, loud, | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
and that same feeling that you get, you know, | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
that we still get the same feeling | 0:20:29 | 0:20:31 | |
if we sit in a jam room and haven't played together for a while. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:35 | |
We love it, and it's like... | 0:20:35 | 0:20:36 | |
It brings us back to that simplest form of just | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
aggression and energy and, you know, having fun. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
You know, and I think that will always exist. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:44 | |
To Dave and Taylor, it's clear that being in a band is, | 0:20:50 | 0:20:52 | |
for want of a better word, a career, and it's something | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
that they're going to do until the rest of their gigging legs | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
fail them, but this idea is something quite recent to music. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
I mean, Eric, when you started out, | 0:21:01 | 0:21:03 | |
did you expect to be gigging this time later? | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
I mean, it's 50 years | 0:21:06 | 0:21:08 | |
-you've been making music now. -I never expected to live to see 30, | 0:21:08 | 0:21:11 | |
and all of my comrades that I hung out with, | 0:21:11 | 0:21:16 | |
we never, ever thought we'd see 30 years of age, | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
so anything beyond that was a gift. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:24 | |
But I go on stage, and I do an hour and a half | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
of nonstop belting with my voice, | 0:21:28 | 0:21:31 | |
and where do I get that from? How? | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
What allows me to do that? | 0:21:34 | 0:21:36 | |
The power that comes from the audience. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
Erm, Jehnny, can I come to you? I mean, was this ever...? | 0:21:39 | 0:21:43 | |
Is this a career choice for you? | 0:21:43 | 0:21:45 | |
Are we speaking to you as your career progresses? | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
Is that how you see it, or is that an anathema to you? | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
It was a life choice, I think. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
When I started making music, I did it for love, because I fell in love | 0:21:53 | 0:21:57 | |
with someone who was making music and I started making music with him. | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
And how is it to live that? | 0:22:00 | 0:22:01 | |
I mean, is it easy to get by as a musician these days? | 0:22:01 | 0:22:05 | |
Well, erm... | 0:22:05 | 0:22:07 | |
I mean, no. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
I mean, how do I put it? | 0:22:11 | 0:22:12 | |
When I started making music professionally, | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
so, it was in 2007, so that's right when the crisis started | 0:22:15 | 0:22:20 | |
in the music industry, so I've never known any golden years of... | 0:22:20 | 0:22:25 | |
You know, it's only started to get better now, I think, a little bit. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:28 | |
I think I see a few changes in it. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
So I see my generation getting, you know, | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
people from my generation getting more success and getting more | 0:22:33 | 0:22:36 | |
established, maybe, and trying to change the rules a bit, | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
changing things around, and having a bit more of a voice. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
You know, like, me being here today, for example. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:44 | |
You talk... I mean, you've been talking a lot about | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
this kind of...the rawness. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:49 | |
And this kind of, you know, energy, | 0:22:49 | 0:22:51 | |
and obviously, you know, the band's name, Savages, | 0:22:51 | 0:22:54 | |
it seems like when you guys came along, | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
that was something that was missing - | 0:22:56 | 0:22:58 | |
-a kind of confrontational attitude. -Oh, God, I mean... | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
I mean, I remember it. You just couldn't find it. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:03 | |
I remember going through... Being at a festival, going through the bill | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
and trying to find something angry and there was nothing there. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:09 | |
I agree. I mean, I remember before starting Savages, | 0:23:09 | 0:23:12 | |
trying to go and see gigs, | 0:23:12 | 0:23:13 | |
and going to, I don't know, events or stuff, and everything was twee. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:17 | |
Like, everything was twee... LAUGHTER | 0:23:17 | 0:23:20 | |
..and shoegazing, people were looking at their shoes, | 0:23:20 | 0:23:22 | |
their hair in their face, and twee. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:25 | |
It was... It was just boring. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
I was dying for something to happen and when we started Savages, | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
it was definitely, like, let's do something that isn't around, | 0:23:30 | 0:23:34 | |
because we're missing that connection. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
I mean, John, what you think of this? | 0:23:36 | 0:23:38 | |
Because it is... You know, we're talking about... | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
We've just been seeing the Foo Fighters there, | 0:23:41 | 0:23:43 | |
and you know, there's a lot of those kind of very, very big bands today, | 0:23:43 | 0:23:46 | |
that when you go to see them, | 0:23:46 | 0:23:48 | |
their gigs are fantastic experiences for the fans | 0:23:48 | 0:23:51 | |
but they are, you know, they're very polite, they're kind of pleasant. | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
They're lovely people. Should rock music be about being disagreeable? | 0:23:54 | 0:24:00 | |
Do you know what I mean? Are we losing something if we lose that? | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
Is rock 'n' roll supposed to get up people's noses? | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
To be honest, I... | 0:24:06 | 0:24:08 | |
hand on heart, I never really got the arena experience. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:14 | |
For me, that's up there with, I don't know, sport or something. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:20 | |
-It's... -With what? | 0:24:20 | 0:24:21 | |
-Sport, or... -Sport? | 0:24:21 | 0:24:24 | |
It doesn't, like, touch the buttons that I think | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
an intense rock 'n' roll experience ought to do. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
There should be some kind of compression about it. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:34 | |
You know, like, under a roof, with walls, | 0:24:34 | 0:24:38 | |
and a certain amount of people outside who are disappointed | 0:24:38 | 0:24:44 | |
because they can't get in. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:46 | |
You know, and it all kind of adds to that rock 'n' roll, | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
you know, "you had to be there" experience kind of thing. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
To some, rock 'n' roll is purely a 20th-century phenomenon - | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
a product of a time before the internet, when it was possible | 0:24:57 | 0:25:01 | |
for just one band to capture the imaginations of a generation. | 0:25:01 | 0:25:05 | |
One of the last groups lucky enough to achieve this status was Oasis. | 0:25:05 | 0:25:08 | |
We caught up with songwriter Noel Gallagher in Paris | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
for his thoughts on what's changed. | 0:25:11 | 0:25:13 | |
Viewers beware - as with anything Gallagher-related, this VT features | 0:25:13 | 0:25:17 | |
some very strong opinions and some appalling and horrendous language. | 0:25:17 | 0:25:21 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:25:21 | 0:25:23 | |
MUSIC: Rock 'n' Roll Star by Oasis | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
# Tonight, I'm a rock 'n' roll star | 0:25:26 | 0:25:33 | |
# Tonight, I'm a rock 'n' roll star... # | 0:25:33 | 0:25:38 | |
Oasis was the last band from the old world. | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
We happened before the digital age. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
# Oh, there's no easy way out... # | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
'When somebody would say to someone in 1994,' | 0:25:46 | 0:25:50 | |
"Have you heard that Supersonic by Oasis?" | 0:25:50 | 0:25:53 | |
"Who?" "Oasis." | 0:25:53 | 0:25:55 | |
"What is it?" | 0:25:55 | 0:25:56 | |
"On the radio, it was called Supersonic. Have you heard it?" | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
"No." You had to fucking wait another week | 0:25:59 | 0:26:01 | |
before you might catch it on the radio, right. | 0:26:01 | 0:26:03 | |
# I need to be myself | 0:26:03 | 0:26:08 | |
# I can't be no-one else... # | 0:26:08 | 0:26:11 | |
'Know what happens now? Someone says, "Have you heard that song by that band Oasis?" ' | 0:26:11 | 0:26:15 | |
"No, I haven't, what's it called?" "It's called Supersonic." | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
"Supersonic, let's have a look in there... | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
"There's a fucking bald guy in the band, I'm not having that. Next." | 0:26:21 | 0:26:24 | |
# Cos my friend said he'd take you home... # | 0:26:24 | 0:26:28 | |
'Cos in theory, the internet and YouTube, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
'they should be helping bands get off the ground, but it's not.' | 0:26:30 | 0:26:34 | |
You know, it's got worse. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:36 | |
MUSIC: Don't Look Back In Anger by Oasis | 0:26:36 | 0:26:38 | |
# Slip inside the eye of your mind... # | 0:26:38 | 0:26:41 | |
The record labels are not interested in working-class bands any more. | 0:26:41 | 0:26:45 | |
'I just... We live in a different era, know what I mean? | 0:26:45 | 0:26:48 | |
'But the working-class bands are out there, but saying that, though,' | 0:26:48 | 0:26:51 | |
no-one's ever going to convince me | 0:26:51 | 0:26:52 | |
that there's a bunch of guys on a council estate | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
writing the greatest songs and they're not being discovered. | 0:26:55 | 0:26:57 | |
That's fucking nonsense. | 0:26:57 | 0:26:59 | |
# Please don't put your life in the hands | 0:26:59 | 0:27:04 | |
# Of a rock 'n' roll band | 0:27:04 | 0:27:07 | |
# Who'll throw it all away... # | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
'If there's any blame, you know, attach it to record labels. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:14 | |
'You know, if you think that' | 0:27:14 | 0:27:16 | |
the big major record labels... | 0:27:16 | 0:27:18 | |
the two biggest indie albums of the '90s, | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
which is Nevermind | 0:27:22 | 0:27:23 | |
'and Morning Glory, | 0:27:23 | 0:27:26 | |
'from the point of them being huge, the record business as a whole' | 0:27:26 | 0:27:31 | |
turned its focus on indie music and alternative music. | 0:27:31 | 0:27:36 | |
And then, they bought up all the indie labels | 0:27:36 | 0:27:38 | |
and shut them all down, and now they've moved on, you know? | 0:27:38 | 0:27:42 | |
All those people that were out there looking to discover | 0:27:42 | 0:27:44 | |
the My Bloody Valentines, and Primal Screams - | 0:27:44 | 0:27:47 | |
they're not there any more. They're doing other things, | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
probably working in fucking IT or summat. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:52 | |
# Wherever you are, I'll be on your tail | 0:27:52 | 0:27:56 | |
# Whatever you're hiding behind your veil | 0:27:56 | 0:27:59 | |
# I'll find you... # | 0:27:59 | 0:28:00 | |
So, do you think rock 'n' roll is dead, then? | 0:28:00 | 0:28:02 | |
Is that what you're saying? | 0:28:02 | 0:28:03 | |
Not as long as I'm still fucking going it's not. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:05 | |
# I'll find you... # | 0:28:05 | 0:28:07 | |
'It's there but it certainly is not the regeneration process. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:12 | |
'If you think that the last great collection of groups came out' | 0:28:12 | 0:28:17 | |
ten years after Definitely Maybe, and that was Arctic Monkeys | 0:28:17 | 0:28:20 | |
and Kasabian and Razorlight, and The Libertines and all that, | 0:28:20 | 0:28:22 | |
since then, there's been nothing. You name me one band since... | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
and that was.... so that's ten years ago. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
Alternative music never used to go ten years | 0:28:31 | 0:28:35 | |
without regenerating itself, ever, ever. | 0:28:35 | 0:28:38 | |
It was five at the most, you know? | 0:28:38 | 0:28:39 | |
There was a five-year gap between The Jam and The Smiths, | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
and The Smiths and The Stone Roses, and The Stone Roses and Oasis. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
You know what I mean? So... | 0:28:45 | 0:28:49 | |
the evidence is that it's kind of... | 0:28:49 | 0:28:51 | |
..it's certainly in hibernation, for sure. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
Strong stuff from Noel Gallagher, | 0:29:01 | 0:29:02 | |
who clearly doesn't listen to my radio show! | 0:29:02 | 0:29:05 | |
And I'm going to come to you, Jehnny, | 0:29:05 | 0:29:07 | |
because there was an expletive uttered in the closing stages, | 0:29:07 | 0:29:10 | |
there, and a bit of an eye-roll. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:12 | |
I mean, do you think he's wrong? | 0:29:12 | 0:29:15 | |
Of course he's wrong! Yeah... LAUGHTER | 0:29:15 | 0:29:18 | |
I mean, yeah, of course he's wrong. | 0:29:18 | 0:29:20 | |
I mean, I understand why he's not on the cover of the NME every month | 0:29:20 | 0:29:24 | |
because, you know, if that's all they think there is. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
But there is new music, you know. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
But I think he, yeah... | 0:29:30 | 0:29:32 | |
I don't...I don't... I don't think he's right, but... | 0:29:32 | 0:29:35 | |
Where should you look? | 0:29:35 | 0:29:36 | |
Where is...? As he's talking about, obviously, that kind of... | 0:29:36 | 0:29:39 | |
I think he's judging on success. | 0:29:39 | 0:29:41 | |
I think he's thinking of... | 0:29:41 | 0:29:43 | |
because all the bands he's talking about | 0:29:43 | 0:29:45 | |
are bands who have reached a wide, wide audience, so I don't think... | 0:29:45 | 0:29:48 | |
-I think that's what he's talking about, basically. -Yeah. -Like... | 0:29:48 | 0:29:51 | |
A band that he values is rock 'n' roll reaching a very wide audience. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:56 | |
I mean, Noel talks about class there, as well, of course. | 0:29:56 | 0:29:59 | |
I mean, you guys and The Beatles, | 0:29:59 | 0:30:01 | |
you had, I think, one of the first two bands | 0:30:01 | 0:30:03 | |
-to have a number one in America, right? -Yeah... | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
What did they make of you, | 0:30:05 | 0:30:07 | |
-a working-class kid from Newcastle? -Well, we took a lot of flak | 0:30:07 | 0:30:11 | |
from a lot of people, being white boys playing black music, | 0:30:11 | 0:30:15 | |
to start with. But you know something, we never got that from | 0:30:15 | 0:30:17 | |
the musicians. It was always | 0:30:17 | 0:30:19 | |
the critics, it was always certain elements in the crowd. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:25 | |
But we never got that from the black musicians in America. | 0:30:25 | 0:30:29 | |
It was like, "Hey, you guys are doin' it! | 0:30:29 | 0:30:33 | |
"You're bringin' it alive again. Come on in! Jam!" | 0:30:33 | 0:30:36 | |
I mean, I met John Lee Hooker and became close friends with him. | 0:30:36 | 0:30:42 | |
He gave me his address. "When you get to America, look me up! | 0:30:42 | 0:30:45 | |
"Come and stay with me." He showed me around Detroit, | 0:30:45 | 0:30:49 | |
which is where he was living at the time. | 0:30:49 | 0:30:51 | |
And I never met a more... Not one person, but a group of people | 0:30:51 | 0:30:58 | |
that were more open, willing, loving. You know, wanting to share | 0:30:58 | 0:31:04 | |
what they had with the world, you know? | 0:31:04 | 0:31:05 | |
Amazing. John, I want to ask you, as well, | 0:31:05 | 0:31:08 | |
about Noel's thought about class. I think you once said that, | 0:31:08 | 0:31:13 | |
for you, punk was an escape route and performance was an escape route | 0:31:13 | 0:31:20 | |
or an option, in a way that perhaps it's not for kids growing up | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
these days - working-class kids. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:25 | |
I'm from a... I always figured, | 0:31:25 | 0:31:29 | |
if you are going to make it in any, kind of, | 0:31:29 | 0:31:32 | |
intuitive field of endeavour, | 0:31:32 | 0:31:34 | |
artistically or in music or something, | 0:31:34 | 0:31:40 | |
you would have to go to London. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:42 | |
And I think, you know, punk brought about a lot of independent labels | 0:31:42 | 0:31:48 | |
in the provinces, you know, | 0:31:48 | 0:31:50 | |
that provided a platform for... | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
for a lot of kids that... I think didn't exist before that. | 0:31:53 | 0:31:59 | |
Whether they exist any more, I don't know, but I don't know how any... | 0:31:59 | 0:32:03 | |
I don't know how any musician makes a living, really, now, you know. | 0:32:03 | 0:32:09 | |
I still buy CDs with the same spirit that I... | 0:32:09 | 0:32:13 | |
I'll wait an extra 45 minutes at a human cashier in a supermarket, | 0:32:13 | 0:32:17 | |
because I believe in full employment and people getting paid | 0:32:17 | 0:32:22 | |
for their work. | 0:32:22 | 0:32:23 | |
But maybe I'm eccentric this way. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:27 | |
But I can't compete with any of the stories that... | 0:32:27 | 0:32:31 | |
that Eric would have to tell about those days. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:34 | |
And I remember these times that | 0:32:34 | 0:32:37 | |
Eric is talking about, from the point of view | 0:32:37 | 0:32:39 | |
-of a punter. -Yeah, I just wanted to get out of here. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:43 | |
-Get out of this place! -Got to get out of this place! | 0:32:43 | 0:32:46 | |
-Got to get out of this place! -Yeah, right. | 0:32:46 | 0:32:48 | |
-Yeah, right. -That song spoke to me, absolutely. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:51 | |
I should have cited that song, We Gotta Get Outta This Place. | 0:32:51 | 0:32:55 | |
That was, sort of, the view of anybody that lived in the provinces | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
in the '60s, wasn't it? It was a time of great social mobility | 0:32:58 | 0:33:00 | |
for a little while. | 0:33:00 | 0:33:02 | |
Yeah, I wanted to get out of Newcastle, | 0:33:02 | 0:33:04 | |
then I wanted to get out of London. I wanted to get out of New York | 0:33:04 | 0:33:06 | |
and I ended up on the West Coast. I'm like, "Yeah! I can breathe!" | 0:33:06 | 0:33:12 | |
Jehnny, is that the life you're living? Did that ring bells? | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
I can totally relate to what they're saying. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:19 | |
This is exactly what happens when you are, like, 15 or 13. | 0:33:19 | 0:33:22 | |
I grew up in a small town in France and I can relate to that. | 0:33:22 | 0:33:28 | |
I was bored to death, but the music was what was keeping me from | 0:33:28 | 0:33:32 | |
dreaming and every week, I would wait to have enough money to buy my CD, | 0:33:32 | 0:33:37 | |
my one CD a week, and it would be... yeah, something. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:41 | |
What were you listening to? | 0:33:41 | 0:33:43 | |
When you buy the wrong one, it's really annoying, when it's shit! | 0:33:43 | 0:33:46 | |
What were you listening to? What did you grow up on? | 0:33:46 | 0:33:48 | |
Had to wait for another week. Erm... | 0:33:48 | 0:33:50 | |
I was listening to Sonic Youth, I was listening to Blonde Redhead, | 0:33:50 | 0:33:54 | |
I was listening to...erm... PJ Harvey, I was listening to. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:59 | |
And then the old stuff, as well! | 0:33:59 | 0:34:00 | |
But, I think music was a means to emancipation and, you know, | 0:34:00 | 0:34:04 | |
to growing out of where you are and becoming, you know, | 0:34:04 | 0:34:10 | |
someone else, someone, the person you are supposed to be. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
All right. The recent BBC Four documentary series | 0:34:13 | 0:34:16 | |
Rock 'n' Roll America celebrated the music's black southern roots. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:19 | |
One of the bands currently rocking our 21st-century world is | 0:34:19 | 0:34:23 | |
Alabama Shakes, who, as their name suggests, | 0:34:23 | 0:34:26 | |
hail from this mythic region. | 0:34:26 | 0:34:28 | |
We caught up with lead singer Brittany Howard | 0:34:28 | 0:34:30 | |
to see what rock 'n' roll means to her. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:33 | |
# You got to hold on... # | 0:34:40 | 0:34:47 | |
When I think of rock 'n' roll, I don't think about somebody dressed up | 0:34:47 | 0:34:50 | |
real nice and standing still. | 0:34:50 | 0:34:52 | |
'No, I tend to think about people dancing. | 0:34:52 | 0:34:54 | |
'The pictures you see of Elvis,' | 0:34:54 | 0:34:56 | |
he's sweating, his hair's on the front of his head, | 0:34:56 | 0:34:58 | |
you know, it was hot in there, there's no air conditioning there. | 0:34:58 | 0:35:01 | |
And you're giving it all you've got. | 0:35:01 | 0:35:03 | |
# Bless my heart | 0:35:03 | 0:35:05 | |
# And bless yours too... # | 0:35:05 | 0:35:07 | |
'The cool thing about rock 'n' roll, it doesn't have to be hard, doesn't have to be difficult,' | 0:35:07 | 0:35:11 | |
it doesn't have to be super thought out. It's just fun. | 0:35:11 | 0:35:14 | |
And that's the part from rock 'n' roll that we took | 0:35:14 | 0:35:17 | |
to make this band come together. | 0:35:17 | 0:35:19 | |
# Yeah, you got to work | 0:35:19 | 0:35:21 | |
# Yeah, you got to work... # | 0:35:25 | 0:35:28 | |
'By my own definition, I'm in a rock 'n' roll band because' | 0:35:28 | 0:35:32 | |
what we do is raw and visceral and it's loud and it's attacking | 0:35:32 | 0:35:35 | |
and it's supposed to be making this connection with the audience. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:39 | |
'Kind of nice to look at something and be able to relate to it | 0:35:39 | 0:35:42 | |
'and be like, "Yeah, you know,' | 0:35:42 | 0:35:43 | |
"I'm probably not going to grow up to be a doctor | 0:35:43 | 0:35:46 | |
"and that's OK cos I've got my rock 'n' roll | 0:35:46 | 0:35:48 | |
"and it understands me and I understand it." | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
'It's the only... It's the only way.' | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
It's the only correct band to be in. | 0:35:53 | 0:35:55 | |
# Hold on. # | 0:35:57 | 0:36:01 | |
Alabama Shakes there, taking it way back home. | 0:36:06 | 0:36:09 | |
Rock 'n' roll, we mean it, man, the message, the music, the outlook, | 0:36:09 | 0:36:13 | |
it's usually antiestablishment, and from Woody Guthrie to Red Wedge, | 0:36:13 | 0:36:17 | |
it's often been used as an explicit political tool. | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
Now we're going to hear from a bunch of unlikely bedfellows, | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
Billy Bragg, Merrill Garbus of Tune-Yards and Sleaford Mods | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
ask how do you make your point in music? | 0:36:26 | 0:36:29 | |
And precisely what is that point now? | 0:36:29 | 0:36:32 | |
Well, when I first started writing music | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
there was no other way that my voice could be heard. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:42 | |
When I felt angry about the world, and it didn't necessarily be | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
political, just angry about being a teenager, you know, | 0:36:45 | 0:36:49 | |
the only medium that was open to someone like me, working-class lad, | 0:36:49 | 0:36:53 | |
'left school at 16, was to learn to play guitar, | 0:36:53 | 0:36:55 | |
'to write songs and to do gigs.' | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
# After all this it won't be the same | 0:36:58 | 0:37:01 | |
# Messing around on Salisbury Plain. # | 0:37:01 | 0:37:04 | |
'Now, if I was a 19-year-old | 0:37:05 | 0:37:07 | |
'feeling angry about the way of the world' | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
I could either start a Facebook page, you know, | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
get an argument going on Twitter, | 0:37:13 | 0:37:16 | |
'write a blog, I could even make a film with my phone.' | 0:37:16 | 0:37:20 | |
Music has lost its vanguard role as the sole social medium. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:26 | |
# No water in the water fountain... # | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
'I find that it's really hard' | 0:37:29 | 0:37:31 | |
to tell stories or be preaching | 0:37:31 | 0:37:33 | |
in a way that music in the '60s and '70s could afford to be. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:38 | |
There were very specific things that music protested, | 0:37:38 | 0:37:41 | |
the Vietnam War, you know, there were causes that were clear | 0:37:41 | 0:37:44 | |
and in the US I think that the black community has a lot to | 0:37:44 | 0:37:49 | |
clearly protest against in a way that middle-class white kids | 0:37:49 | 0:37:53 | |
aren't so clear about what they're protesting any more. | 0:37:53 | 0:37:56 | |
What happened to that, | 0:37:56 | 0:37:58 | |
that time where people weren't afraid to open their mouths, you know? | 0:37:58 | 0:38:02 | |
# The dinosaurs are stuck on Denmark Street.... # | 0:38:02 | 0:38:05 | |
'A lot of the so-called elite bands at the minute, they're all products | 0:38:05 | 0:38:09 | |
of big companies' | 0:38:09 | 0:38:10 | |
and they're just good employees, basically. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:13 | |
# ..caravan on Tiswas | 0:38:13 | 0:38:14 | |
# The dinosaurs are stuck, no way to get down... # | 0:38:14 | 0:38:17 | |
If you're some angry guitar band, you know, with lyrics | 0:38:17 | 0:38:20 | |
railing against everything, you're not going to want that much success, | 0:38:20 | 0:38:23 | |
-you're not going to want to know the industry at all. -No. | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
-You're already doing what you want to do, which is do gigs. -Yes. | 0:38:26 | 0:38:30 | |
So that's the issue, striking a chord with a bigger amount of people | 0:38:30 | 0:38:35 | |
is a different thing, and in some ways we seem to have done that | 0:38:35 | 0:38:39 | |
but I don't know how we did that. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:41 | |
It just seems to have happened, you know. | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
# OTT! # | 0:38:43 | 0:38:50 | |
Sleaford Mods, | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
whose no-holds-barred chronicles of modern Britain have earned them | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
a legion of fans, and a couple of enemies too - not me, though. | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
Love them. They put us in a song. Thanks very much, lads. | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
Anyway, back to the task at hand. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:05 | |
Jehnny, can rock 'n' roll change the world? | 0:39:05 | 0:39:08 | |
I think Viv Albertine from The Slits recently said that, | 0:39:08 | 0:39:12 | |
you know, you would be better off not picking up a guitar | 0:39:12 | 0:39:15 | |
if you want to protest today. Is she right? | 0:39:15 | 0:39:17 | |
I watched that interview and at the end she's asked that question, | 0:39:19 | 0:39:22 | |
is, can music be revolutionary any more? | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
And she says, "Well, if I was young today, | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
"I would become a human rights lawyer, I wouldn't pick up a guitar." | 0:39:28 | 0:39:32 | |
I didn't understand why she said that. | 0:39:34 | 0:39:36 | |
I was a bit angry, I was a bit... | 0:39:36 | 0:39:41 | |
You know, I felt it was, first, denying a little bit what she did, | 0:39:41 | 0:39:48 | |
and also saying, | 0:39:48 | 0:39:52 | |
"Well, I did it and now it's done." | 0:39:52 | 0:39:54 | |
You know, it was denying the freedom that a young girl today | 0:39:54 | 0:39:58 | |
could feel in any part of the world, like, | 0:39:58 | 0:40:01 | |
if you're not just thinking about England, the freedom a young girl | 0:40:01 | 0:40:06 | |
could feel in picking up a guitar herself and expressing herself. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:09 | |
It's interesting, isn't it? Cos with Viv, | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
I suppose what she, maybe what she's saying is, | 0:40:12 | 0:40:14 | |
you know, get your hands dirty, change the world, take direct action | 0:40:14 | 0:40:18 | |
and perhaps... Cos she's somebody that inspired me, | 0:40:18 | 0:40:20 | |
if I'd never listened to The Slits I wouldn't be sitting here, | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
and I'm sure the same goes for you but perhaps she's saying maybe | 0:40:23 | 0:40:27 | |
that just takes too long, to just, you know, to do it that way, | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
it's just not quick enough. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:32 | |
Yes, I think maybe her role would be more interesting today if she could | 0:40:32 | 0:40:36 | |
be inspiring instead of being, you know, telling that it's not worth it. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:41 | |
You know, "I've done it, you don't need to do it." | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
That's all I am saying. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:46 | |
John, do you think that rock 'n' roll always has to have a political point of view? | 0:40:46 | 0:40:51 | |
No, not at all. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:53 | |
I think rock 'n' roll is at its best when it's the vehicle | 0:40:53 | 0:40:57 | |
of either extreme pleasure | 0:40:57 | 0:41:01 | |
or extreme melancholia | 0:41:01 | 0:41:05 | |
or, I think the subjects, | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
the best subjects for rock 'n' roll are to do with instant | 0:41:08 | 0:41:13 | |
gratification, speed and sensation, | 0:41:13 | 0:41:18 | |
the sensations of life. | 0:41:18 | 0:41:21 | |
It's not a ruminative medium. | 0:41:21 | 0:41:24 | |
Somehow, I guess that's why they invented folk music. | 0:41:24 | 0:41:29 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:41:29 | 0:41:30 | |
-So, it's Johnny Kidd and the Pirates for you, Shaking All Over. -Every time. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:34 | |
I think it's at its best and at its strongest when it's doing that, | 0:41:34 | 0:41:37 | |
when it's expressing those kind of fleeting sensations, | 0:41:37 | 0:41:42 | |
you know, that very often don't even last longer than two and a half minutes. | 0:41:42 | 0:41:47 | |
OK, Eric, we mentioned, I think briefly, | 0:41:49 | 0:41:52 | |
We Gotta Get Out Of This Place, which... | 0:41:52 | 0:41:54 | |
Now that's an exception that proves the rule. That's a very... | 0:41:54 | 0:41:59 | |
I'm not saying that it can't be the vehicle for social, | 0:41:59 | 0:42:05 | |
you know, clever social lyrics, I'm not ruling them out. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:10 | |
You know, Chuck Berry does that like nobody else, you know, | 0:42:10 | 0:42:15 | |
every note is a word. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:18 | |
If you read that aloud, | 0:42:18 | 0:42:20 | |
if you read the lyrics to a Chuck Berry song aloud, | 0:42:20 | 0:42:23 | |
you would be singing the song. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:26 | |
It doesn't leave you any other way to go. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
That's the thing about rock 'n' roll, it shouldn't leave anything to the imagination. | 0:42:29 | 0:42:33 | |
Eric, can I ask about We Gotta Get Out Of This Place | 0:42:33 | 0:42:37 | |
because it really, it sums up that kind of world-changing ambition | 0:42:37 | 0:42:41 | |
and, as you say, that lyric is so powerful. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:45 | |
Tell me a bit about the story of that song. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:47 | |
Well, going back to the original question that you posed, | 0:42:47 | 0:42:50 | |
can rock 'n' roll change the world? rock 'n' roll has changed the world. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:54 | |
-It already has. -It already has. -Amen! | 0:42:54 | 0:42:56 | |
You don't have to preach politics | 0:42:56 | 0:42:59 | |
because the people pick the politics out of the meaning in the songs, | 0:42:59 | 0:43:04 | |
you know? Bob Dylan was a great exponent of that. | 0:43:04 | 0:43:08 | |
Just recently I was in Croatia. | 0:43:08 | 0:43:11 | |
They asked me to sing, | 0:43:11 | 0:43:13 | |
"Would you sing House Of The Rising Sun again one more time?" | 0:43:13 | 0:43:16 | |
"Oh, no, I'm sick of singing that," you know. | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
I got to the stage area and I had no idea what I was facing, | 0:43:18 | 0:43:22 | |
I climbed up the stairs, got on the stage, there was a microphone | 0:43:22 | 0:43:26 | |
and I hear the opening chords to House Of The Rising Sun. | 0:43:26 | 0:43:30 | |
There was 10,000 kids in the audience with guitars, | 0:43:30 | 0:43:36 | |
playing the opening sequence to House Of The Rising Sun. | 0:43:36 | 0:43:40 | |
That was going out live on TV | 0:43:40 | 0:43:43 | |
to millions, millions of people. | 0:43:43 | 0:43:46 | |
And I'll never, ever run down that song again | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
because I realised the importance of it. | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
It was helping kids to pick up a guitar and play | 0:43:53 | 0:43:57 | |
those opening chords and from there they take it on to another level. | 0:43:57 | 0:44:02 | |
You've had had many instances of that over the years, though. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:05 | |
I mean, tell me a little bit about We Gotta Get Out Of This Place | 0:44:05 | 0:44:08 | |
cos that was an anthem, that was, you know, it changed people's lives | 0:44:08 | 0:44:12 | |
and it became, it expressed something that they wanted to say. | 0:44:12 | 0:44:16 | |
It was the soldiers' anthem in Vietnam, | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
in the Middle East. | 0:44:19 | 0:44:22 | |
In every war there's been, | 0:44:22 | 0:44:26 | |
that song goes to number one | 0:44:26 | 0:44:28 | |
with the soldiers and airmen and sailors and all of that. | 0:44:28 | 0:44:33 | |
But do they get the message? | 0:44:35 | 0:44:37 | |
The message is we've got to get out of THAT place to another place. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:43 | |
Is that where you were coming from in your work with War, | 0:44:43 | 0:44:47 | |
was that very much part of that? | 0:44:47 | 0:44:49 | |
Well, yeah, we caught... We... | 0:44:49 | 0:44:53 | |
The Vietnam War went on so long | 0:44:53 | 0:44:56 | |
that we thought we would call the band War | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
to soften people's attitudes towards the war. | 0:45:00 | 0:45:05 | |
It didn't. It was a bad experiment, it backfired on us, | 0:45:05 | 0:45:11 | |
but that was the intention. And of course I went to America | 0:45:11 | 0:45:15 | |
because I wanted to be involved with black music | 0:45:15 | 0:45:18 | |
and there I was, there was my chance to be on the road with a black band | 0:45:18 | 0:45:22 | |
and learn something, and you know what I learned? | 0:45:22 | 0:45:26 | |
I learned I can't sing for diddly diddly do alongside of those guys. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:31 | |
I've got a long way to go. | 0:45:31 | 0:45:33 | |
Jehnny, do people ever misread what you guys are about, | 0:45:33 | 0:45:37 | |
what your band are about? And the message? | 0:45:37 | 0:45:39 | |
In what terms? In what way? | 0:45:39 | 0:45:41 | |
Well, in that kind of way, like they perhaps project something | 0:45:41 | 0:45:44 | |
onto you that is not a message that you're trying to convey? | 0:45:44 | 0:45:49 | |
The easy thing that they project on us because | 0:45:49 | 0:45:51 | |
we are a band of women is that we are a feminist band. | 0:45:51 | 0:45:54 | |
I think, you know, easily, I think it's a label that is a bit hard | 0:45:54 | 0:46:00 | |
to shake out or even comprehend when we started making music. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
And that is kind of politics. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:05 | |
Feminism is politics, it's about human rights, | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
equality and everything, so that's a subject I wasn't really, | 0:46:08 | 0:46:12 | |
to be honest, I wasn't really concerned about feminism | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
but once we started to get an audience and everything | 0:46:15 | 0:46:19 | |
and journalists kept asking me, "So you're a feminist band? | 0:46:19 | 0:46:22 | |
"So you're a feminist?" And I was like, "What?" You know? | 0:46:22 | 0:46:25 | |
And then I realised that bands and artists I was listening to | 0:46:25 | 0:46:29 | |
were part of what you would call the feminist movement, | 0:46:29 | 0:46:32 | |
some more than others, and then I started to dig into it | 0:46:32 | 0:46:36 | |
and get more interested in that history and that culture | 0:46:36 | 0:46:39 | |
but I think, you know, there's this thing about | 0:46:39 | 0:46:43 | |
history catching back with you as well, | 0:46:43 | 0:46:45 | |
like you're doing something you don't really know it's a call. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:48 | |
It's a call and you're doing it but then | 0:46:48 | 0:46:50 | |
you realise you're doing something that socially has | 0:46:50 | 0:46:53 | |
a certain meaning and you have to get an answer to that. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:57 | |
I think you start hitting some walls as well. | 0:46:57 | 0:46:59 | |
You start coming up against some sexism | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
and you have to decide about feminism pretty quickly. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:06 | |
-The music industry is a sexist place. -Yes. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:08 | |
I think the conversation about gender, I feel like it's opening up, | 0:47:08 | 0:47:11 | |
like, a lot at the moment and I quite like that conversation. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:14 | |
It is on this show cos there's me and you talking about it, which is excellent. Thank you very much. | 0:47:14 | 0:47:19 | |
Time for some more music. | 0:47:19 | 0:47:21 | |
Perhaps the one element of musical culture that can truly lay claim | 0:47:21 | 0:47:25 | |
to have inherited the mantle of rock 'n' roll is hip-hop. | 0:47:25 | 0:47:28 | |
Like rock 'n' roll, its roots are black and American | 0:47:28 | 0:47:32 | |
and for the past four decades it has annoyed parents | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
and delighted young people in equal measure. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:37 | |
The British band at the vanguard of a modern pop and hip-hop sound | 0:47:37 | 0:47:41 | |
are the Mercury-winning Young Fathers. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:44 | |
We caught up with them in an east London warehouse | 0:47:44 | 0:47:47 | |
for a performance of an intriguing song | 0:47:47 | 0:47:49 | |
related to why we are here today, Old Rock N Roll. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:52 | |
Be advised this track features the strongest of language from the very outset. | 0:47:52 | 0:47:57 | |
Oh, for fuck's sake. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:04 | |
MUSIC STARTS | 0:48:04 | 0:48:06 | |
# We living life like a bubble wrapped ape | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
# She came to mind when I treble that bass | 0:48:18 | 0:48:21 | |
# I'm tired of playing the good black | 0:48:24 | 0:48:28 | |
# I said I'm tired of playing the good black | 0:48:28 | 0:48:30 | |
# I'm tired of having to hold back | 0:48:30 | 0:48:31 | |
# I'm tired of wearing this hallmark for some evils happened a way back | 0:48:31 | 0:48:34 | |
# I'm tired of blaming the white man | 0:48:37 | 0:48:39 | |
# His indiscretions don't betray him | 0:48:39 | 0:48:41 | |
# A black man can play him | 0:48:41 | 0:48:43 | |
# Some white men are black men too | 0:48:45 | 0:48:48 | |
# Niggah to them | 0:48:48 | 0:48:50 | |
# A gentleman to you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you | 0:48:50 | 0:48:54 | |
# Some white men are black men too | 0:48:54 | 0:48:57 | |
# Some white men are black men too | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
# Some white men are black men too | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way | 0:49:10 | 0:49:13 | |
# Oh-way oh-way Awake, awake, awake... # | 0:49:13 | 0:49:15 | |
'It's a song basically working' | 0:49:15 | 0:49:17 | |
backwards through the kind of viewpoint that it has today, | 0:49:17 | 0:49:21 | |
rock 'n' roll, in kind of stereotypes | 0:49:21 | 0:49:24 | |
and racial prejudices that have come with it. | 0:49:24 | 0:49:26 | |
# God forsaking no good do-gooder | 0:49:26 | 0:49:28 | |
# It's all out Out in the open... # | 0:49:30 | 0:49:32 | |
'It's the associations with colour' | 0:49:32 | 0:49:34 | |
and personal experiences, you know, | 0:49:34 | 0:49:37 | |
"Tired of playing the good black, tired of having to hold back, | 0:49:37 | 0:49:40 | |
"tired of wearing this hallmark for some evils that happened way back," | 0:49:40 | 0:49:44 | |
you know, what I'm saying is | 0:49:44 | 0:49:46 | |
tired of having the feeling that the world is on my shoulders | 0:49:46 | 0:49:50 | |
as a black person, as a black man, and | 0:49:50 | 0:49:53 | |
'me having to accommodate a role.' | 0:49:53 | 0:49:56 | |
# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way | 0:49:57 | 0:50:00 | |
# Niggah! Oh-way oh-way oh-way... # | 0:50:00 | 0:50:03 | |
'By the time the song ends, it ends up back in Congo Square | 0:50:03 | 0:50:06 | |
'where... It was the first place in New Orleans where' | 0:50:06 | 0:50:10 | |
-they allowed the slaves to play music. -It was every Sunday. | 0:50:10 | 0:50:13 | |
So that's like, yeah... | 0:50:13 | 0:50:14 | |
Probably where rock 'n' roll came from in the first place. | 0:50:14 | 0:50:18 | |
# Old rock n roll | 0:50:21 | 0:50:23 | |
# Not what you've been sold | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
# Congo Square is open for business | 0:50:26 | 0:50:30 | |
# I was there as God is my witness | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
# There you fucking go | 0:50:32 | 0:50:35 | |
# So there you fucking go | 0:50:35 | 0:50:38 | |
# Go go go go go | 0:50:39 | 0:50:42 | |
# Go go go go go | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
# Oh oh oh oh oh | 0:50:45 | 0:50:47 | |
# Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh | 0:50:47 | 0:50:51 | |
-# Ooh -Ah | 0:50:51 | 0:50:53 | |
-# Ooh -Ah | 0:50:55 | 0:50:57 | |
-# Ooh -Ah | 0:50:57 | 0:51:00 | |
# Ooh... # | 0:51:00 | 0:51:02 | |
'People that run places of power, | 0:51:02 | 0:51:04 | |
'they're not using that rock 'n' roll attitude any more.' | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
It's a business model. It's a lucrative market. | 0:51:07 | 0:51:10 | |
'Rock 'n' roll is antiestablishment | 0:51:10 | 0:51:13 | |
'but now the establishment is using rock 'n' roll now and again' | 0:51:13 | 0:51:16 | |
to market it and that's... | 0:51:16 | 0:51:18 | |
-Using it for something else. -Using it for something else. | 0:51:18 | 0:51:21 | |
-They cleaned it up. -To seem like rebellion but it's not really rebellion. -It's controlled. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:25 | |
It's very controlled rebellion. I suppose the people in power... | 0:51:25 | 0:51:29 | |
It's a very kind of smart brainwashing move, | 0:51:29 | 0:51:32 | |
if you know what I mean, but... | 0:51:32 | 0:51:34 | |
A sense of freedom when there's none. | 0:51:34 | 0:51:36 | |
A sense of freedom when there isn't. | 0:51:36 | 0:51:38 | |
Old Rock N Roll, an oblique take on the history | 0:51:48 | 0:51:51 | |
of slavery, racial stereotypes and the black origins of rock 'n' roll, | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
there, from the amazing Young Fathers. | 0:51:54 | 0:51:56 | |
Now, for me, Young Fathers show one way to be rock 'n' roll now. | 0:51:56 | 0:52:00 | |
They push the boundaries both musically and aesthetically. | 0:52:00 | 0:52:03 | |
John, what did you make of them? | 0:52:03 | 0:52:05 | |
I didn't hear all their lyrics, to be honest | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
but I'm always interested in outfits like that, | 0:52:08 | 0:52:10 | |
you know, that blur the edges | 0:52:10 | 0:52:12 | |
and that was a rocking kind of noise and it was incensed | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
and, like you said when you introduced it, | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
they mean it, man, | 0:52:19 | 0:52:21 | |
but I'll have to come back to you on the lyrics. | 0:52:21 | 0:52:23 | |
I didn't get lyric one but that ain't a bad sign. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:26 | |
That's a good sign. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:28 | |
I get angry on stage. | 0:52:28 | 0:52:30 | |
I get that angry for five minutes. | 0:52:30 | 0:52:33 | |
Express myself, | 0:52:34 | 0:52:36 | |
then I back down because I realise I can't stay there | 0:52:36 | 0:52:40 | |
and I realise that I don't belong there | 0:52:40 | 0:52:44 | |
and I would stretch it and say... | 0:52:44 | 0:52:48 | |
That's not rock 'n' roll. | 0:52:48 | 0:52:50 | |
It's something else altogether. | 0:52:50 | 0:52:53 | |
It's morphed into another creature | 0:52:53 | 0:52:58 | |
because, to me, rock 'n' roll has to have a... | 0:52:58 | 0:53:03 | |
It's synthetic discordant dance music | 0:53:03 | 0:53:08 | |
with lyrics that you can relate to | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
and I can't relate to that. | 0:53:11 | 0:53:15 | |
I'm sorry. That's the truth. | 0:53:15 | 0:53:18 | |
That's funny, because, when you gave that list, | 0:53:18 | 0:53:20 | |
I'm like... Because I know their record, I'm like, "Yes, yes, yes." | 0:53:20 | 0:53:24 | |
You know, they do all of those things for me. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:28 | |
It's a point of view thing. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:30 | |
I don't know. I just... | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
It's not Chuck Berry. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:36 | |
It's not Jerry Lee Lewis. | 0:53:36 | 0:53:37 | |
It's not Ray Charles. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:39 | |
It's not Bo Diddley. | 0:53:39 | 0:53:41 | |
But it's not trying to be any of those things. | 0:53:41 | 0:53:43 | |
That's the point, isn't it? | 0:53:43 | 0:53:44 | |
You know, those guys aren't trying to be Jerry Lee Lewis or Sam Cooke, | 0:53:44 | 0:53:48 | |
they're doing something new. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:50 | |
They're doing something different and that's the point. | 0:53:50 | 0:53:52 | |
It was the same with the punks. | 0:53:52 | 0:53:53 | |
I didn't like punk music | 0:53:53 | 0:53:55 | |
but I agreed with what they were saying. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:57 | |
Somebody had to kick the door in and they did. | 0:53:57 | 0:54:01 | |
I think what Eric's saying, correct me if I'm incorrect, Eric, | 0:54:01 | 0:54:04 | |
I think you're saying what this stuff lacks is the light touch. | 0:54:04 | 0:54:09 | |
-Yeah. -You know, the light touch. | 0:54:09 | 0:54:12 | |
You know, to be honest, | 0:54:12 | 0:54:14 | |
there's nothing more hilarious | 0:54:14 | 0:54:17 | |
than unrelenting tragedy. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:19 | |
AUDIENCE LAUGHS | 0:54:19 | 0:54:21 | |
Jehnny, I'm going to bring you in here. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:24 | |
Jehnny, I'm going to bring you in and ask, | 0:54:24 | 0:54:27 | |
what is it that you want people to feel when they hear your music? | 0:54:27 | 0:54:31 | |
It depends. | 0:54:31 | 0:54:32 | |
When we started Savages, | 0:54:33 | 0:54:35 | |
personally, I was quite angry about a lot of things | 0:54:35 | 0:54:39 | |
and I'm still angry about a lot of things | 0:54:39 | 0:54:41 | |
but I was very defensive | 0:54:41 | 0:54:43 | |
and I was like a boxer going into the ring | 0:54:43 | 0:54:45 | |
and I enjoyed that very much and I still enjoy it | 0:54:45 | 0:54:49 | |
and I think you can, you know, have your energy, | 0:54:49 | 0:54:52 | |
you know, kind of expressing yourself that way | 0:54:52 | 0:54:56 | |
and stage is for that, as well. | 0:54:56 | 0:54:58 | |
Like, getting all your darkness, you know, and your... | 0:54:58 | 0:55:02 | |
-But it doesn't mean you're not a happy person. -But, in doing so, | 0:55:02 | 0:55:07 | |
you don't want to add to the sum total of human misery. | 0:55:07 | 0:55:11 | |
Yeah, I... | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
You know, after all, | 0:55:13 | 0:55:14 | |
you are asking people to buy a ticket. | 0:55:14 | 0:55:18 | |
JEHNNY LAUGHS | 0:55:18 | 0:55:19 | |
I agree. Exactly. | 0:55:19 | 0:55:21 | |
And I think, also, what kind of person are you? | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
Hopefully, you're doing this to become someone, you know... | 0:55:24 | 0:55:28 | |
Not a pain in the arse, you know? | 0:55:28 | 0:55:30 | |
You're doing this to become someone that is... | 0:55:30 | 0:55:36 | |
you know, funny, or, I don't know, interesting, | 0:55:36 | 0:55:38 | |
has travelled all around the world and has seen things | 0:55:38 | 0:55:41 | |
and you're becoming someone maybe a bit better | 0:55:41 | 0:55:43 | |
than you were when you started, so that should show. | 0:55:43 | 0:55:46 | |
I think that maybe that's what I understand | 0:55:46 | 0:55:48 | |
from what these guys are saying, | 0:55:48 | 0:55:50 | |
although I should have brought my sunglasses maybe. | 0:55:50 | 0:55:52 | |
It served its purpose. | 0:55:52 | 0:55:55 | |
It woke us up. | 0:55:55 | 0:55:57 | |
-Exactly. -It's got us heated up. -That's it. | 0:55:57 | 0:55:59 | |
When I met Ian MacKaye for the first time, | 0:55:59 | 0:56:01 | |
so who was in Fugazi, I don't know if you're familiar with Fugazi | 0:56:01 | 0:56:05 | |
or if you would call it rock 'n' roll, | 0:56:05 | 0:56:06 | |
I would definitely say it's rock 'n' roll, | 0:56:06 | 0:56:08 | |
and he told me, when I said to him as a fan, I said, | 0:56:08 | 0:56:12 | |
"You changed my life," and, when I said to him that, he said, | 0:56:12 | 0:56:16 | |
"Well, I started making music because... For the same reason. | 0:56:16 | 0:56:21 | |
"I was touched by the same thing, so for me to pass it along | 0:56:21 | 0:56:24 | |
"is exactly what it should be doing." | 0:56:24 | 0:56:28 | |
Live for ever, that should be the message. | 0:56:28 | 0:56:31 | |
Live for ever. | 0:56:31 | 0:56:33 | |
That's the perfect place to leave it. Thank you so much, guys. | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
Thank you. Well, I think we've proved that, | 0:56:36 | 0:56:38 | |
in this marvellous hour, rock 'n' roll's still very much alive | 0:56:38 | 0:56:42 | |
and what a fantastic hour it's been. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:44 | |
Thank you so much to my brilliant, brilliant guests. | 0:56:44 | 0:56:47 | |
Eric, John, Jehnny, thank you very, very much. | 0:56:47 | 0:56:50 | |
Thank you to our audience here at The 100 Club. Cheers, everyone. | 0:56:50 | 0:56:54 | |
Thank you. | 0:56:59 | 0:57:00 | |
Well, it seems that, as long as rock 'n' roll has the power | 0:57:04 | 0:57:07 | |
to cause an argument, there's life in the old dog yet. | 0:57:07 | 0:57:09 | |
I'm going to leave you with some more thoughts on its future. | 0:57:09 | 0:57:11 | |
Goodnight. | 0:57:11 | 0:57:13 | |
Whatever kind of social or political function, | 0:57:24 | 0:57:27 | |
like, rock 'n' roll achieved | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
is probably being made right now in a different country | 0:57:29 | 0:57:34 | |
in a different genre of music that you have no idea about. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:37 | |
I think that's kind of what we're waiting for, | 0:57:40 | 0:57:42 | |
is another generation of people to reflect it in a different way. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:46 | |
All it takes is one band with one great song. | 0:57:50 | 0:57:54 | |
That's it. | 0:57:54 | 0:57:55 | |
Someone's always doing it. Someone's always keeping that tradition alive. | 0:57:58 | 0:58:01 | |
Rock 'n' roll is one of those traditions that'll never die. | 0:58:01 | 0:58:04 |