The Daily Politics Conference Special


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The Daily Politics Conference Special

Andrew Neil is in Manchester for the Conservative Party's annual conference, with Jo Coburn in Westminster with all the other top political stories of the day.


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics Conference special

:00:25.:00:29.

live from Manchester. The sun has made an appearance on the

:00:29.:00:31.

penultimate day of the Conservative party conference, perhaps in

:00:31.:00:33.

defiance of Chancellor George Osborne's gloomy prognostications

:00:33.:00:38.

yesterday. But whether you're gloomy or chirpy, it's fair to say

:00:38.:00:41.

this has been a pretty uneventful conference so far. Business-like,

:00:41.:00:49.

serious. A little apprehensive about how it's all going. No major

:00:50.:00:51.

announcements, like last year's child benefit bombshell, except

:00:52.:00:54.

perhaps the Chancellor's plan for credit easing, which few understand

:00:54.:00:59.

and even his aides are struggling to explain. The conference will

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continue its sober course today. But there will be substance. This

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morning, Home Secretary Teresa May will take centre stage. It's

:01:09.:01:12.

expected she will outline plans to re-write the immigration rules to

:01:12.:01:15.

try to stop foreigners who commit crimes in the UK using the Human

:01:15.:01:19.

Rights Act to avoid deportation. We'll be talking to her later in

:01:19.:01:27.

the programme. We'll be taking a look at how the

:01:27.:01:29.

coalition is fairing with an undercover Liberal Democrat MP and

:01:29.:01:36.

an unhappy Tory backbencher. Last year I was roll up -- well received

:01:36.:01:40.

at the Tory party conference. I even got a bear hug from Eric

:01:40.:01:44.

Pickles. But now many Tory backbenchers are getting rebellious

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so this time, I am going undercover. And that is not all! Our very own

:01:51.:01:55.

Jo is in London. Yes, hello, Andrews.

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Here in the capital, all eyes were on this morning's star turn, the

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Mayor of London, Boris Johnson. A great favourite inside the hall and

:02:02.:02:06.

already campaigning for re-election. But would the party turn to him if

:02:06.:02:10.

ever Dave himself fell under the proverbial 88 from Clapham Common?

:02:10.:02:14.

It is the halfway mark and I have had to get down on my hands and

:02:14.:02:23.

knees because it was really close but now Boris is in the lead for of

:02:24.:02:29.

We will talk about that later. We are nearly at the end of the

:02:29.:02:35.

conference season. Three weeks of hard slog, hot rooms, overheating

:02:35.:02:40.

white wine. Two days to go. But are we wilting? No! And look

:02:40.:02:44.

we've found two fresh as a daisy journos to kick off the programme.

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Back by popular demand... Their mothers have e-mailed me and asked

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me to have them back on. Nick Watt from the Guardian and Sam Coates

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from the Times. Welcome. Do you detect that this conference is flat

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or am I imagining it? It is not surprised that people around David

:03:03.:03:06.

Cameron say the Prime Minister would not be that upset if the

:03:06.:03:11.

conference was reduced to one day, because really it is about one day,

:03:11.:03:14.

his speech. Although there is the traditional parade of people

:03:14.:03:20.

standing up to the podium behind me, not a lot of it matters. They don't

:03:20.:03:25.

have debates, they don't have motions. I watched Jeremy Hunt

:03:25.:03:29.

yesterday. It was like one of the programmes that will probably be on

:03:29.:03:36.

his local TV! This whole conference season has been pretty dull. The

:03:36.:03:41.

reason why it is that none of the party's have any leadership

:03:41.:03:45.

challenges and although we have a coalition government, we know when

:03:45.:03:51.

they let -- next election will be, spring 2015. But a dull conference

:03:51.:03:57.

season. Out there, the world, the eurozone, is facing a very grave

:03:57.:04:03.

crisis which could make the autumn of 2008 look like a party. They are

:04:03.:04:07.

apprehensive about that. They are solidly behind George Osborne but

:04:07.:04:12.

they have got both fingers crossed, probably their toes crossed as well,

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because their political fate is in his hands. Absolutely. If you look

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at the polling, eventually the public are stable and have not made

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any big decisions. They are waiting to see whether the world ends, the

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euro collapses, whether they will have jobs and money in two years,

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or whether it will be fine. Yesterday you had George Osborne

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who eventually gave a speech at Conservative Party conference aimed

:04:42.:04:46.

primarily at the bond market, talking about securing money for

:04:46.:04:50.

small firms, and that left a lot of people in the hall scratching their

:04:50.:04:57.

heads. I was scratching my head as well! Dahl is good. We have just

:04:57.:05:03.

had Boris Johnson. We were expecting a barnstorming

:05:03.:05:08.

performance and it wasn't. It was not that exciting and it did not

:05:08.:05:12.

set up the hall. He is looking to election in London next year and

:05:12.:05:15.

possibly the leadership of the Conservative Party. Do you think

:05:15.:05:20.

that Boris is a leadership contender? He is in his own mind.

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Don't forget that he thinks that David Cameron is his intellectual

:05:24.:05:30.

inferior. He would go around ten years ago saying, David Cameron is

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just a PR man for Carlton TV, I and the classically educated editor of

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the Spectator. Now we are 16 months into the government, it is quite

:05:44.:05:48.

clear that George Osborne, the great rival, we think, for the

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leadership, is slowly getting what could seem to be his team together.

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He has a guard around him, a bunch of law real people. He is carving

:05:58.:06:03.

out a distinctive personality. Disowning their early green stuff

:06:03.:06:07.

that made David Cameron's name for him. You are starting to see the

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early signs of a race between these two getting going, which is why it

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watching one after the other is fascinating. I know the

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Chancellor's speed got blown off because of all this Foxy Knoxy

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business in Italy, but almost 24 hours after the speech, how does it

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stand? Where does Mr Osborne's staters lie with his party?

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great challenge could all -- a challenge for George Osborne was to

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say he will promote growth for the economy but in a way that does not

:06:44.:06:52.

involve moving from Plan A. That is difficult when you can no longer

:06:52.:06:55.

control Monetary Policy. He has come up with credit easing that has

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the flavour of a fiscal stimulus but does not involve spending money,

:07:00.:07:05.

but also has the flavour of monetary activism. I was surprised

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that the standing ovation was so short and lukewarm. He was barely

:07:09.:07:14.

off the stage by the time they were filing out. It was not a speech for

:07:14.:07:18.

the hall. It doesn't mean they don't like him but something did

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not quite work. Either they just felt it was a serious speech for

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series times and it was not designed to please them, but

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alternatively there is a more worrying possibility. George

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Osborne is the guy that must now protect Britain at one of the

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biggest potential crisis, potentially, we have seen in the

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last 30 years. I wonder whether people were thinking, crikey, is he

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the man to do that? His strategy was to take the tough action, which

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he did, and by now we should be seeing the beginnings of growth.

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Hasn't happened. He is worried the economic cycle is going to be

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longer than the political cycle. I heard on the radio this morning and

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other European saying, we are not talking about a default on Greece,

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that is not on the agenda. What plants are they on. We are running

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out of time but I think that is what worries them. If the eurozone

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does not get a grip, there is no way we can escape. When the finance

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minister says there will not be a default, you can be pretty sure

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there will be one. Thank you, gentlemen. Your parents will be

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proud of you. They have not been behaving but I

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will tell you about that later. The conference will not play a

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formal role in developing party policy, so what is the point? What

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does it do? Here is another conference jargon buster to find

:08:48.:08:58.
:08:58.:08:59.

out how the Conservatives run their The Conservative Party conference

:08:59.:09:04.

is unlike its main rivals' party conferences in that in terms of

:09:04.:09:08.

membership influence and policy- making, it has virtually no power

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at all. Now it is all run by the conference committee, which is a

:09:15.:09:18.

subsection of the party board, and though they have left the seaside

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behind, it is more of an event for a gathering of like-minded souls

:09:22.:09:29.

for things like contact building and big speeches. And as such, its

:09:29.:09:35.

structure is far less rigid than other parties'. It can and has been

:09:35.:09:40.

changed pretty much at whim, although the big final event is

:09:40.:09:45.

usually fixed as the leader's speech. Although David Cameron has

:09:45.:09:49.

also spoken at the beginning of conference when he felt like it.

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Ordinary members to get to make their contributions, but they are

:09:53.:09:58.

always drowned out. They do so by lining up next to the microphone on

:09:58.:10:02.

a first-come first-served basis. But they do have to keep their

:10:03.:10:06.

contributions short and they don't interestingly have a constitutional

:10:06.:10:14.

right to have their voice heard. Housing minister, Grant Shapps, is

:10:14.:10:17.

with us. Take these planning changes that the government wants

:10:17.:10:23.

to put through. Very controversial. Not for me to say whether they are

:10:23.:10:28.

right or wrong. There is a debate, even among people at conference,

:10:28.:10:35.

but there has been no debate or vote. As with all conferences, the

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best discussions take place in the fringes. That is where you find the

:10:39.:10:44.

vibrant debate. Everyone agrees that planning needs to be faster

:10:44.:10:50.

and less contradictory... There is a lot of country people here, a lot

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of people living on the edge of the green belt, in villages, market

:10:54.:10:58.

towns in the green belt. I think they would have liked it to be

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debated properly. Yesterday I was doing question and answers about

:11:04.:11:09.

growth and the economy... That was not a debate. There is no vote.

:11:09.:11:19.
:11:19.:11:24.

write. It doesn't matter in the end. We don't make those decisions on

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the floor but yesterday, people were asking about planning reforms

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and a lot of people backing the idea that it needs to be faster to

:11:32.:11:36.

plan things. Do you think if you had a vote, you would have run?

:11:36.:11:43.

Absolutely. We will never know. Are we seen evidence of backtracking on

:11:43.:11:48.

your planning reforms? Are you wilting under the Daily Telegraph

:11:48.:11:53.

campaign? No. I came from a conference fringe from one of the

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Daily Telegraph writers who said they think the campaign itself is

:11:57.:12:01.

rather misguided. The point is everyone agrees planning does not

:12:01.:12:06.

work in this country so something has to be done. The document

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reproduced is a draft and you want debate and, so in many ways, we

:12:10.:12:17.

welcome the debate. Will there be substantive changes? We are clear

:12:17.:12:20.

that what needs to come out is a faster and more efficient planning

:12:20.:12:26.

system, where people get a sense of certainty and the debate has moved

:12:26.:12:30.

from the planning inspectorate, which is what happens at the moment,

:12:30.:12:34.

to the point where the local plan is put in place by local people, so

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it shifts the debate. That is what we want to see happen. There is

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some evidence you on the run. Bob meal, then local government and

:12:46.:12:50.

planning minister, said their proposals will have to be improved

:12:50.:12:54.

-- Bob Neill. He set me will be in a very different place by the end

:12:54.:13:00.

of the year. There will be no point in sailing a draft cannot be

:13:00.:13:06.

improved, by definition. -- in sailing. Bob meant that when all

:13:06.:13:11.

sides sit down, and you look at the concerns put up by people like the

:13:11.:13:15.

National Trust for example, you understand the relative positions

:13:15.:13:22.

and everyone is in a different place... You have been criticised

:13:22.:13:26.

in the letters column in the Telegraph and they are Tory voters.

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I am pretty sure come the next election, the discussion of

:13:30.:13:33.

conversation on the doorstep will not be a document which frankly

:13:33.:13:36.

most people have never read called the national planning policy

:13:36.:13:41.

framework. So "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" does not hold

:13:41.:13:47.

sway? I think this great document we are talking about, I hope it

:13:47.:13:50.

will be a significant as some people would have you believe. It

:13:51.:13:55.

is important but it is one small element of the overall picture of

:13:56.:13:59.

trying to improve efficiency of the planning system and create growth.

:13:59.:14:03.

The and at the core of that is a presumption in favour of

:14:03.:14:09.

sustainable development. Define sustainable development. That has

:14:09.:14:14.

been define since 1974 and widely used in legal terminology -- has

:14:14.:14:24.
:14:24.:14:24.

been defined. Give us a two sentence definition. OK. In my

:14:24.:14:30.

constituency... One sentence. wet areas where they were trying to

:14:31.:14:35.

put homes that were inappropriate and where the local authority

:14:35.:14:39.

thought were good. The sustainable ones were the ones where it should

:14:39.:14:44.

go. I apologise for being flippant, it is important. I would give you a

:14:44.:14:48.

second chance. Give us the definition in an easy to understand

:14:48.:14:53.

way of sustainable. What I am saying is local people will

:14:53.:14:57.

understand what is sustainable in there every year. That is as long

:14:57.:15:01.

as a piece of string. It is an issue for proper debate at a local

:15:01.:15:06.

level because in my patch, we knew that the old Aerospace site was the

:15:07.:15:11.

sustainable area and we knew it was not, for example, the green belt

:15:11.:15:15.

between the two towns I represent. So it will mean different things

:15:15.:15:20.

were different people. It is meaningless. You should just be a

:15:20.:15:24.

presumption in favour of development. No. Sustainability is

:15:24.:15:28.

best judged when you know at the lay of the land and guess what, the

:15:28.:15:32.

people who know they lay of the land live locally and understand

:15:32.:15:35.

how the Community operates. Sustainability should be judged at

:15:35.:15:41.

a local level. Let's go on to housing. The record of the last

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government was criticised because they did not build enough houses.

:15:44.:15:49.

At one stage, when Mr Prescott was in charge, they built a few houses

:15:49.:15:58.

then since 1924. Do you have a target and figure for how many

:15:58.:16:01.

houses a year in the public and the private sector we should be

:16:01.:16:10.

Yob but it is many more than we are building at the moment. We know

:16:10.:16:13.

building at the moment. We know that for example, one measure

:16:13.:16:20.

indicates something like 200 and 1,000-230,000. That suggests that

:16:20.:16:29.

if we're only building 100,000, we are a long way short. -- 200,000-

:16:29.:16:35.

230,000. 3 million homes by 2020, that was a big target. I can

:16:35.:16:39.

remember something from this party, targets for building houses, and

:16:39.:16:46.

actually, in the 1950s, they met them. Determined by this conference,

:16:46.:16:50.

in a power that it never has today. Harold Macmillan, who was doing

:16:50.:16:54.

your job then, as the Housing Minister, was overruled by this

:16:54.:16:59.

conference, who told him to build more. You're not doing that. I know

:16:59.:17:03.

it was very different times. I was not around them, but let's not go

:17:03.:17:08.

there. You could do things like put up a lot of prefabs, which then

:17:08.:17:12.

have to be taken down again, and you could create a lot of housing

:17:12.:17:17.

very quickly, a post war. We are in a different world now. Can you give

:17:17.:17:23.

us a ballpark figure? I mean, combined, council, social housing,

:17:23.:17:28.

private, a ballpark figure. I can tell you that we will be

:17:28.:17:32.

disappointed if we are not building a lot more. On affordable housing,

:17:32.:17:40.

we have just announced plans for of 270,000 affordable homes in the

:17:41.:17:47.

next five years. And as many homes in general as we can possibly get

:17:47.:17:52.

built, to the right standards, and good quality. Our viewers who are

:17:52.:17:56.

mark will have noticed there is not a figure in there. I am not going

:17:56.:18:01.

to say a figure. Would you like a badge? This one is, I love the

:18:01.:18:11.
:18:11.:18:13.

coalition. Can I get a collection, and a mug as well? No, the team

:18:13.:18:19.

will get you. Have this one, I love the coalition. And you should

:18:19.:18:23.

definitely have this one, when the housing figures do not quite

:18:23.:18:29.

measure up - don't panic. Let's go back live to London now. I hope

:18:29.:18:33.

Grant Shapps is not running off with that mug. The uncontested

:18:33.:18:36.

highlight of this morning's conference in Manchester was the

:18:36.:18:40.

Mayor of London, Boris Johnson. He was first up this morning, always a

:18:40.:18:44.

difficult slot, just as everyone was trickling into the hall. Behind

:18:44.:18:51.

the scenes, the nerves were jangling. We're OK, I have just got

:18:51.:19:01.
:19:01.:19:02.

to concentrate on the very important message, for myself.

:19:02.:19:06.

nerves at all, by the looks of it. He got a rapturous reception when

:19:06.:19:10.

he came on stage, and he went straight into his theme, how to

:19:10.:19:15.

prevent any repetition of this summer's riots across the capital.

:19:15.:19:20.

I have spent a fair bit of the last two months travelling the streets

:19:20.:19:24.

of London, talking to hundreds of people who were caught up in the

:19:24.:19:32.

riots. People whose businesses were attacked, or who were just appalled

:19:32.:19:36.

by what they saw. And I have got a pretty good idea of what Londoners

:19:36.:19:44.

want. They want to make sure that nothing like it ever happens again.

:19:44.:19:49.

So, I can tell you that as long as I am mayor, I will not allow police

:19:49.:19:54.

numbers to fall below a level that I believe is safe or reasonable for

:19:54.:19:59.

a great city like London. Police numbers are up by 1001 when I was

:19:59.:20:03.

elected, and the number of special constables has doubled to more than

:20:03.:20:13.
:20:13.:20:13.

5,200. I pledge to you now that I am going to keep it that way. We

:20:13.:20:18.

know that it is not all just about numbers, and the Londoners I have

:20:18.:20:22.

spoken to also want the police to have the backing that they need to

:20:22.:20:26.

deal with the thugs and the looters in the way that they need to be

:20:26.:20:29.

dealt with. If you look at the record of the new commissioner,

:20:29.:20:33.

Bernard Hogan-Howe, you can see how clearly he understands the

:20:34.:20:38.

principal, that if you crack down on the small stuff, the big stuff

:20:38.:20:44.

starts to take care of itself. 75% of the rioters and looters were

:20:44.:20:49.

criminals. And lots of them, by the way, had 15 or more convictions. We

:20:49.:20:55.

have got to recognise that 25% of them had no record, and I think

:20:55.:20:59.

what Londoners want, talking to people, is for everyone together,

:20:59.:21:04.

politicians, police, teachers, parents, to sort out the underlying

:21:04.:21:09.

issues which encouraged these people to riot. One of the very

:21:09.:21:13.

best things to have come out of this is the fierce desire of people

:21:13.:21:18.

to help to bring communities together, and to show that those

:21:18.:21:26.

looters and rioters do not stand for London. I can reveal today that

:21:26.:21:32.

in the paddock Calais area of France, and the authorities have

:21:32.:21:38.

decided that the region is to be re-baptised. Conference, I reckon

:21:38.:21:43.

we have got a record to be proud of. We have effectively frozen the

:21:43.:21:48.

council tax, we have effectively cut it, by 10% over three years. We

:21:48.:21:53.

have delivered Oyster, we have delivered a 24-hour Freedom pass

:21:53.:21:58.

for the people of London. The last bendy bus will leave our streets by

:21:58.:22:03.

Christmas. In the new year you will see a new generation of

:22:03.:22:08.

Routemasters-style buses, with an open platform, built in the UK,

:22:08.:22:11.

with British Technology, the quickest, cleanest bus in London.

:22:11.:22:16.

And after more than 450 years since it was lost, we have recaptured

:22:16.:22:25.

Calais from the French, as the burghers of Calais have yielded to

:22:25.:22:33.

the soft power of the Olympics. With me now, the Labour MP Stephen

:22:33.:22:37.

pound. No wonder Boris is sounding confident, because despite the fact

:22:37.:22:44.

that Labour is nearly 20 points ahead in the polls - Stephen Pound

:22:44.:22:47.

- Boris Johnson is still eight points ahead of the Prime Minister,

:22:47.:22:56.

why? One has a certain sympathy with the great Boris. That was a

:22:56.:23:02.

pretty lacklustre performance, and received very poorly. Actually,

:23:02.:23:07.

they seem to love Boris Johnson, as we will see. But first, let's just

:23:07.:23:12.

look at his standing in London. If Labour is doing so well, why is

:23:12.:23:17.

Boris Johnston outstripping Ken Livingstone by eight points? --

:23:17.:23:21.

Boris Johnson. I would not have thought eight points was that much,

:23:21.:23:27.

it can easily be caught up. At the moment, the glitz and the glamour,

:23:27.:23:33.

he has even had a new haircut. The reality is that we have got a five-

:23:34.:23:38.

day a-week Tube system which costs five times as much as it used to.

:23:39.:23:43.

We have got major problems with the police. These numbers which Boris

:23:43.:23:49.

talks about, what exactly does that mean? It is when Ken Livingstone

:23:49.:23:54.

can actually show the substance, the real difference, and show that

:23:54.:23:57.

London needs experience, but energy as well, and Ken Livingstone has

:23:57.:24:02.

got both of those. Ken Livingstone has admitted that if it comes down

:24:02.:24:05.

to confidence, he feels he would have a better chance, but at the

:24:05.:24:10.

moment, it comes down to charisma, and that's the problem, Boris

:24:10.:24:14.

Johnson is winning on personality. These polls also say that one in

:24:14.:24:17.

five Labour voters say they will vote for Boris. You will not be

:24:17.:24:22.

able to catch that up. I think we will. Last time, the polls were

:24:22.:24:26.

wobbling around all over the place. It is a pretty volatile,

:24:26.:24:32.

sophisticated city. But Labour are 20 points a head, the capital is

:24:32.:24:38.

going your way. Labour on 51%, the Tories on 32%, but Ken Livingstone

:24:38.:24:48.
:24:48.:24:56.

is not translating that lead, so the problem is with him...

:24:56.:25:01.

reality is that the volatility in London is so high, we are still a

:25:01.:25:04.

fair way away from the election. Experience will start to tell. At

:25:04.:25:09.

the moment, yes, gourami the marvellous bumbling person who

:25:09.:25:12.

comes in and talks about playing with kids, throwers jelly around,

:25:12.:25:17.

all of those things. But where is the District line on Saturday and

:25:17.:25:25.

Sunday? Why are our fares going up? Those are the questions Londoners

:25:25.:25:30.

asking. Did you agree with Ken Livingstone's response to the riots,

:25:30.:25:33.

that it was all down to cuts, and therefore to some extent it was

:25:33.:25:38.

going to happen? If he had said that, I would not have agreed.

:25:38.:25:43.

you think that was right? No, I do not. Had he said that, I would have

:25:43.:25:50.

disagreed. It was a whole multiplicity of things. 75% of

:25:50.:25:57.

those people, as Boris said, had criminal records. We have got an

:25:57.:26:00.

excellent opportunity in London to draw together some of the most

:26:00.:26:05.

valuable empirical data we have ever had on this sort of activity,

:26:05.:26:10.

which hopefully we can use to make sure it does not happen again. It

:26:10.:26:14.

is all about giving people inspiration which will help. Back

:26:14.:26:23.

to Manchester. Two weeks ago, at the Liberal Democrat Conference, we

:26:23.:26:30.

got the Conservative MP and Sven lookalike Peter Bone to come along

:26:30.:26:36.

and make a film for us. It was only fair that we brought the Lib Dem MP

:26:36.:26:41.

here to see what he makes of his Conservative coalition partners.

:26:41.:26:51.
:26:51.:26:51.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 45 seconds

:26:51.:27:36.

Despite the colour, you would not see these in a Lib Dem conference.

:27:36.:27:41.

I do not pretend to you that these are not difficult days, and that

:27:41.:27:45.

there are not difficult days ahead. But together, we will ride out the

:27:45.:27:54.

storm and we will move into calmer, brighter sees beyond. Thank you.

:27:54.:27:58.

That was really strange. I actually agreed with nearly everything

:27:58.:28:02.

George Osborne said, and yet, he was not assured in the way he

:28:02.:28:06.

delivered it, and frankly, the audience did not seem to like much

:28:06.:28:13.

of it. Well, I'm just doing a bit of homework at the moment. One year

:28:13.:28:16.

on, what do you think about the role of the Liberal Democrats in

:28:16.:28:19.

the coalition? They have been all right so far. They have been

:28:20.:28:23.

working well with the Conservatives. There has not been anything that

:28:23.:28:29.

major to disrupt anything. I think both parties are coming together.

:28:29.:28:34.

think that as long as David Cameron is liberal and Nick Clegg is

:28:34.:28:38.

Conservative, it will last. I think they have done a really good job in

:28:38.:28:42.

terms of choking off the more right-wing Conservative elements,

:28:42.:28:47.

so therefore, it is a benign effect. It is working particularly well. I

:28:47.:28:50.

have got lots of admiration for many people in the Liberal

:28:50.:28:53.

Democrats. The way that ministers talk about how they are working

:28:54.:28:56.

together in teams seems very different from the impression that

:28:56.:29:06.
:29:06.:29:16.

we get when we read about it in the It is hypocrisy if the people who

:29:16.:29:21.

can you to cut spending to get the deficit down are then imposing an

:29:21.:29:31.
:29:31.:29:43.

Rather amazing. The Labour Party says that the coalition government

:29:43.:29:48.

is cutting too deep and too quickly. Now, we have got the right wing of

:29:48.:29:50.

the Conservative Party saying we're doing it too slowly, and not deep

:29:50.:29:57.

enough, which probably suggest we have got it about right. Boris

:29:57.:30:07.
:30:07.:30:10.

Taoiseach... I think not, but thank you. -- T-shirt. Well, it is the

:30:10.:30:14.

end of the day, and they have all gone off to enjoy themselves in the

:30:15.:30:19.

bar. I have certainly enjoyed myself. I had convinced myself that

:30:19.:30:23.

I'm certainly not a Tory, but many of the Conservatives here seem to

:30:23.:30:26.

think that the coalition is continuing to work well. So I did

:30:26.:30:36.
:30:36.:30:38.

Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Isn't this a bit embarrassing?

:30:38.:30:44.

Everyone is so nice to you here and you lot did nothing but slap of the

:30:44.:30:51.

Tories at the Lib Dem conference. In fairness, I told lots of jokes,

:30:51.:30:56.

both about the Tories and the Lib Dems, but certainly we have been

:30:56.:31:02.

swamped in kindness while we have been here and even the whipped up

:31:02.:31:08.

fury about the European Union doesn't seem to have actually

:31:08.:31:11.

gathered the imagination of the delegates, so it is all going

:31:11.:31:21.

rather well. Why are they so nice, Peter Bone? I have no idea. Look at

:31:21.:31:25.

all the things they called you last week. They accused you of sticking

:31:25.:31:32.

kids up chimneys, of being the ruthless and reactionary, you were

:31:32.:31:37.

the tea-party tendency... Which I am very proud to be. But that is by

:31:37.:31:44.

the by. It is a compliment. So why is everybody being so polite, not

:31:44.:31:49.

just to Don Foster, but about the coalition? The only thing that

:31:49.:31:53.

really matters is the economy and from that point of view, working

:31:54.:31:58.

together to get the economy right is so important. I think we went

:31:58.:32:03.

overboard, I was feeling slightly sick at times. How it is nice to

:32:03.:32:06.

have rational discussions with people from the other side, rather

:32:06.:32:11.

than if you have discussions within the party it is not rational. Those

:32:11.:32:16.

sorts of things, rather strange. They are not from the other side,

:32:16.:32:22.

they are you coalition partners. they are from the other side. This

:32:22.:32:29.

is a temporary arrangement. Is it the dockside? Definitely.

:32:29.:32:34.

dockside? It is interesting how the Conservatives have accepted some of

:32:34.:32:39.

the things the Lib Dems have brought, raising the tax threshold,

:32:39.:32:44.

taking nearly 1 million low-paid people out of income tax, and the

:32:44.:32:48.

work on the green economy, these have been accepted by many

:32:48.:32:53.

Conservatives as real benefits from the coalition. They have equally

:32:53.:32:57.

had to accept that we have had to swallow things, look at the beating

:32:57.:33:02.

we got on tuition fees, the problem we had trying to get people to

:33:02.:33:05.

support the Tory proposal with elected police commissioners. We

:33:05.:33:09.

have had to swallow things as well. The Conservative side of the

:33:09.:33:14.

coalition has not had to go through anything like tuition fees of stock

:33:14.:33:18.

I don't know about that. I think the Liberal tail is wagging the

:33:18.:33:23.

Tory dog. We have had to go back on so many things, you look in

:33:23.:33:27.

particular. The bizarre thing about the coalition is that we both agree

:33:27.:33:33.

there should be a referendum on the EU. Parliament will bring that

:33:33.:33:37.

forward and that will be a binding decision from the Government.

:33:37.:33:43.

don't rethink the Lib Dems are that keen on a referendum. -- I don't

:33:43.:33:47.

really think. Never on this programme has a Lib Dems said to me,

:33:47.:33:52.

we must have a referendum. And it would be absolutely wrong to do it

:33:52.:34:00.

now given the mess in the eurozone. I am not saying do it now. We have

:34:00.:34:04.

been cleared, we have said if there is any significant change between

:34:04.:34:08.

the relationship between this country and the rest of Europe, the

:34:08.:34:14.

British people should have a decision on that. We would go

:34:14.:34:18.

further and say not just a referendum on the changes but that

:34:18.:34:22.

is the opportunity to have the in or out referendum. But Parliament

:34:22.:34:26.

before Christmas will have a vote on whether there is such a

:34:26.:34:29.

referendum and it doesn't matter how the Government's spin it, then

:34:29.:34:33.

they will have to have that referendum so it is no good what

:34:33.:34:38.

the government or opposition think, parliament will decide. Do you

:34:38.:34:43.

agree? If parliament voted for that, would it have to happen? There has

:34:43.:34:47.

been many occasions when Parliament has voted of things that have not

:34:47.:34:52.

happened. This is a new regime now. Labour would not vote for it, would

:34:52.:34:57.

they? Who knows? They are opportunists. If it was a free vote

:34:58.:35:02.

across Parliament, I think we would win. Is the Prime Minister going to

:35:02.:35:08.

whip Tories to vote against it? I can't believe that. People are

:35:08.:35:12.

voting who have never had a say on our membership to the European

:35:12.:35:15.

Union. Clearly we have to have the weight of giving them that

:35:15.:35:20.

opportunity but I don't think the time is right and I don't think you

:35:20.:35:24.

Engineer it at a random time. mean when you get the results you

:35:24.:35:32.

want. You are getting no red meat, you are not going to get a

:35:32.:35:36.

referendum properly, you are not going to get the repatriation of

:35:36.:35:41.

powers, ministers have admitted that on this show, this side of the

:35:41.:35:44.

next election, and you are not going to replace the existing Human

:35:44.:35:48.

Rights Act with the new British one. Listening to the Home Secretary,

:35:48.:35:52.

things are moving in the right direction. The she is changing

:35:53.:35:58.

guidelines. But her personal view is quite clear. She is a superb

:35:58.:36:03.

Home Secretary and moving in the right direction. Would you like "I

:36:03.:36:10.

love the coalition". Yes please. have got, let's get rid of the 50

:36:10.:36:19.

pence badge. No, that one says "I love the 50 pence tax"! I know, up

:36:19.:36:24.

"I love deficit-reduction". I will have that one. I knew he would like

:36:24.:36:27.

that! Now do you remember the days when

:36:27.:36:32.

every Tory Party conference was plagued by a leadership crisis? Had

:36:32.:36:38.

become a happy days. -- happy, happy days. They seem long gone now,

:36:39.:36:42.

and it appears that David Cameron is as safe as houses. But let's

:36:42.:36:46.

think the unthinkable. He resigns tomorrow and takes a new post as

:36:46.:36:51.

head of PR for Sky TV. Yes, it's back to the future for Mr Cameron.

:36:51.:36:54.

So who would take his place? We sent Adam out with some fantasy

:36:55.:36:59.

balls. If David Cameron did stand down,

:36:59.:37:04.

who would be the best replacement? Boris Johnson or George Osborne?

:37:04.:37:14.

Why don't we let the balls decide? At the end of the day, you have to

:37:14.:37:22.

vote with your head, not your heart. I think we know who you are backing.

:37:22.:37:30.

He didn't try as hard as other politicians to hide who he is. He

:37:30.:37:35.

is who he is. I think that is a trustworthy way of politics.

:37:35.:37:40.

Boris? He is much more of a character than Osborne. And you

:37:40.:37:46.

have gone for him as well? connects better with people. Boris

:37:46.:37:50.

is a fantastic party member and he gets the crowd going but in terms

:37:50.:37:54.

of the international stage and seriousness, George has the

:37:54.:37:58.

experience and he is also doing a difficult job as Chancellor and

:37:58.:38:03.

that will give him great experience for the future, if we ever lose the

:38:03.:38:08.

Prime Minister. He has got a better reputation than Boris because most

:38:08.:38:12.

people think Boris is an idiot. think Boris is wonderful but I

:38:12.:38:17.

don't think he will be leader of the Conservative Party. I think he

:38:17.:38:27.
:38:27.:38:28.

is a bit too high risk to be a You are going into the coalition

:38:28.:38:34.

with Boris Johnson's Conservatives. You did not ask me that! You ask me

:38:34.:38:41.

who I wanted to be leader at... Neither of them well. Backing the

:38:41.:38:48.

bag. What we need to do is get some DNA from him and injected into

:38:48.:38:52.

Boris and then we might have someone. I think that might be

:38:52.:38:57.

against the law. He is a stand- alone, different, people like him!

:38:57.:39:03.

Who would be the better leader? Don't be silly! I would need to

:39:03.:39:09.

take two! It was worth a try! It is the halfway mark and I have had to

:39:09.:39:14.

get down on my hands and knees because it was really close but now

:39:14.:39:19.

Boris is still in the lead. There might be another contender!

:39:19.:39:26.

would you like the third man to be? Or woman? Who would that be?

:39:26.:39:31.

think Theresa May has got increasing popularity in the party.

:39:31.:39:38.

David Davies. Why? I worked for him before. He has a better

:39:38.:39:42.

understanding of real life. He stood up for the miners in the

:39:42.:39:47.

north. Financially illiterate. Maybe skip a generation, someone

:39:47.:39:54.

like great -- Grant Shapps. I would like to see a return to Washington,

:39:54.:39:57.

watching the primaries and the leadership candidates, I would like

:39:57.:40:03.

to see a televised debate. So although potential leaders of the

:40:03.:40:06.

Conservative Party line-up and have a debate and actually involve the

:40:06.:40:16.
:40:16.:40:20.

Boris, thank you. Do you think he is already thinking about it?

:40:21.:40:27.

think that he would be stupid not to. Because politics is about

:40:27.:40:31.

opportunity and he is an opportunist. Rather than plastic

:40:31.:40:35.

balls, today we have had crystal balls, looking into a future

:40:35.:40:40.

leadership contest, and it looks like Boris would be the winner,

:40:40.:40:48.

although not by a huge majority. There is still all to play for. I'm

:40:48.:40:51.

joined now by the author and journalist, Toby Young, who tells

:40:51.:40:54.

us he has a �15,000 bet with Nigella Lawson on Boris becoming

:40:54.:40:59.

the next tory leader. Of the musings of the idle rich. We

:40:59.:41:02.

couldn't get Nigella on but we've got her lookalike, Danny

:41:02.:41:08.

Finklestein from the Times. Welcome to you both. Why would you do this?

:41:08.:41:11.

Someone said they could not think of a better argument for the 50

:41:11.:41:17.

pence tax rate. It was in 2003, Boris was my then employee at the

:41:17.:41:23.

Spectator, Nigella and other people were being dismissive. It was an

:41:23.:41:27.

act of slightly inebriated bravado. I was like, put your money where

:41:27.:41:33.

your mouth is. But you are sticking at it? It looked like a week bet

:41:33.:41:38.

then when he was just elected but I think it is safe for now. When does

:41:38.:41:46.

it expire? 2018. Leader of the party. Is he a serious contender to

:41:46.:41:51.

be leader of the Conservative Party? I would be very surprised, I

:41:51.:41:55.

have to say. It is not impossible but I think that her baby's bet is

:41:55.:42:03.

much safer -- and that Toby Young's bed is much safer sailing leader of

:42:03.:42:07.

the party rather than prime minister. So you think he could be

:42:07.:42:12.

leader of the party but unlikely to be Prime Minister? You can lose a

:42:12.:42:17.

lot of money underestimating Boris Johnson. He has a lot of charisma.

:42:17.:42:21.

But I think people would expect from the Prime Minister a better

:42:21.:42:27.

grasp of detail than he demonstrates. He is a political

:42:27.:42:33.

star, he has got charisma, he is a proven vote-winner. I have known

:42:33.:42:38.

him since 1983 and people do not think... We were at Oxford at the

:42:38.:42:44.

same time. People didn't think he had a chance of becoming mayor or

:42:44.:42:53.

MP and you underestimate him at your peril. Is he serious though?

:42:53.:42:57.

He may not be in the conventional political mould but is that what we

:42:57.:43:03.

want? I went to a fringe meeting yesterday for Boris and there were

:43:03.:43:09.

500 people there. William Hague earlier, 150. What is the case of

:43:09.:43:13.

George Osborne? I was just laughing that this is the sort of

:43:13.:43:19.

speculation one makes before a celebrity chef but not one that MPs

:43:19.:43:24.

make. But do you think he has leadership potential? He is very

:43:24.:43:30.

capable. Potential leader? question over that would be what

:43:30.:43:34.

the public think of that and I really don't know... What does

:43:34.:43:40.

Danny Finkelstein think? I would be happy of him as leader of anything.

:43:40.:43:45.

Did you see his speech? No. There have been rumours, a particular

:43:45.:43:50.

blog... The last time I was on this programme you asked me if I was

:43:50.:43:55.

leaving my job. You have an eccentric line in questions. If the

:43:55.:43:58.

Conservatives lose the next election, George will have to take

:43:58.:44:05.

his share of the blame. David will fall on his sword and George would

:44:05.:44:10.

not be the heir to that. Are we right in keeping the conversation

:44:10.:44:16.

to these two? Theresa May's name came up. Grant Shapps, who we just

:44:16.:44:21.

had on the programme. Do you think of him as leadership material?

:44:21.:44:25.

is not for me to say but you clearly don't. No, I thought he did

:44:25.:44:32.

quite well. Even David Davies. of the thing for David Davis and Ed

:44:32.:44:37.

Miliband, it illustrates there is quite a big gap between being a

:44:37.:44:43.

capable senior minister and the election as Prime Minister. William

:44:43.:44:47.

Hague demonstrated that. I have a lot of admiration for him but when

:44:47.:44:52.

it came to being a prime ministerial candidate, he just

:44:52.:44:58.

could not... He did not have the expected. Boris has the X-factor.

:44:58.:45:06.

If David Cameron wins the next election, your bet is groat. He

:45:07.:45:12.

will be prime minister until 2020. He doesn't seem to invest that much

:45:12.:45:16.

in been Prime Minister. He likes spending time with his family, he

:45:16.:45:21.

would like another life. Maybe he will resign towards the end of his

:45:21.:45:27.

second term. He can stand as an MP even if he is mayor, Boris! Thank

:45:27.:45:36.

Let's have a quick catch-up of events on the conference floor this

:45:36.:45:41.

morning. The big theme has been home affairs. We heard Boris

:45:41.:45:44.

Johnson, and next up was the Home Secretary, Theresa May, on crime

:45:44.:45:51.

and immigration. The Government is looking at a British bill of Rights.

:45:51.:45:55.

I can today announce that we will change the Immigration rules to

:45:55.:46:00.

make sure that the misinterpretation of article 8, the

:46:00.:46:04.

right to a family life, no longer prevents the deportation of people

:46:04.:46:11.

who should not be here. The right to a family life is not an absolute

:46:11.:46:16.

right, and it must not be used to drive a coach and horses through

:46:16.:46:22.

our immigration system. Our opponents will say it cannot be

:46:22.:46:28.

done, that they will fight us every step of the way. But they said that

:46:28.:46:33.

about the cap on economic migration, and we did it. They said that about

:46:33.:46:37.

our student visa reforms, and we are doing them. As Home Secretary,

:46:37.:46:41.

I will do everything I can to restore sanity to our immigration

:46:41.:46:47.

system, and get the numbers down. She sounded pretty bullish there.

:46:47.:46:56.

Joining me now from Nottingham is the Labour home affairs spokesman.

:46:56.:47:03.

Do you back those plans to change the immigration rules? I thought it

:47:03.:47:07.

was interesting what she said when she actually read out the article,

:47:07.:47:11.

which showed that it was possible to balance the law under the

:47:11.:47:15.

current legislation. Of course, if there is a need for clarification,

:47:15.:47:22.

then we would support that. But what we're actually saying is that

:47:22.:47:26.

the law as it stands appears to give that balance, it is the

:47:27.:47:32.

interpretation by the courts. It does well in the hall, but outside

:47:32.:47:37.

there, we wonder whether in fact the reality will match that

:47:37.:47:44.

reception in the hall. Just to be clear, do you back her call? Do you

:47:44.:47:49.

accept that at the moment, those human rights arguments have been

:47:49.:47:53.

perhaps abused, and they should be changed to stop that happening?

:47:53.:47:57.

What we have said is that if there is a need for a clarification of

:47:57.:48:01.

the law, then of course we would support that. But Theresa May

:48:02.:48:11.

herself read out the actual article, but alongside that, there is the

:48:11.:48:17.

matter of enforcing the law. Just looking at Labour's position on law

:48:17.:48:22.

and order, last year, Ed Miliband said clearly, we're not going to

:48:22.:48:26.

criticise Ken Clarke over short sentences, we're not going to

:48:27.:48:30.

criticise Theresa May when she says we should review stop unchurched

:48:30.:48:36.

powers, and yet last week, Yvette Cooper said that the Government's

:48:36.:48:42.

counter terror legislation should be reviewed. Labour is the party of

:48:43.:48:52.
:48:53.:48:54.

law and order. Are you? Of course. We are progressive on crime. If

:48:54.:48:58.

you're cutting 16,000 police officers, weakening the law with

:48:58.:49:03.

respect to DNA, and with respect to CCTV, if you're preventing the

:49:03.:49:09.

courts from excluding somebody from London, for example, where you

:49:09.:49:12.

think they might be prone to terrorist offences, then I don't

:49:12.:49:17.

think there is other -- any other phrase you can use, other than weak

:49:17.:49:25.

on law and order. I'm joined now in The Daily Politics bubble at the

:49:25.:49:35.
:49:35.:49:36.

Tory conference by the Home Secretary, Theresa May,. What can

:49:36.:49:42.

you do if the judges decide to ignore your guidance? I have every

:49:42.:49:46.

expectation that the judges will not ignore what we are saying, that

:49:46.:49:49.

they will actually listen to what we have put into the immigration

:49:49.:49:56.

rules, in terms of making sure that there is that interpretation.

:49:56.:50:01.

they are legally obliged to do that? Parliament will set its

:50:01.:50:04.

wailjick down in the statutory instrument, what we expect judges

:50:04.:50:10.

to do, and as I say, I have every expectation that when they see...

:50:10.:50:15.

You have seen how they have ruled before. I would expect that when

:50:15.:50:21.

Parliament gives a very clear message, by saying, we are

:50:21.:50:27.

emphasising this point, and it is of course in Article 8 of the

:50:27.:50:35.

Convention on Human Rights. I was looking at that, because what you

:50:35.:50:39.

want and the caveats in Article 8 are not quite the same thing. You

:50:39.:50:43.

want the judges to take into account criminal offences, breaches

:50:43.:50:49.

of the immigration rules, living on welfare, not working. But the

:50:49.:50:53.

caveats in clause 20 are about the interests of national security,

:50:53.:50:56.

public safety, or the economic well-being of the country, those

:50:56.:51:01.

are not the same thing? No, it is rather broader than that. As you

:51:01.:51:05.

look at the end of that, it talks about the rights of others. It is

:51:05.:51:11.

not just very specific categories. It is quite general, in terms of

:51:11.:51:16.

the ability of a public authority to say, actually, we need to

:51:16.:51:19.

balance the individual rights of this person to a family life

:51:19.:51:23.

against the rights of others in a variety of ways. One problem is

:51:23.:51:29.

that it has always been a relative right in Article 8, rather than an

:51:29.:51:34.

absolute right. But it has been interpreted over the years in that

:51:34.:51:38.

more absolute sense. If the judges continue to rule in the way they

:51:38.:51:44.

have, there is not much you can do about it. Well, if they do, and I

:51:44.:51:47.

have every expectation they will not, then we will look at further

:51:47.:51:52.

measures. Is it true that you said that one judge had ruled that

:51:52.:51:56.

somebody could not be deported because they had a cat? Yes, that

:51:56.:52:01.

was a case that has been reported. We have had a statement from the

:52:01.:52:05.

judiciary saying that is not true. Well, it was identified and

:52:05.:52:11.

reported. Your researcher may have got that one wrong. I have not seen

:52:12.:52:15.

the statement which has come to you from the judiciary. Obviously, I

:52:15.:52:20.

will look at any statement. We will see if we will get it round to you,

:52:20.:52:28.

while we are honoured. Boris Johnson has boasted of adding 1,000

:52:28.:52:32.

extra police to the London constabulary, and then said, I can

:52:32.:52:36.

tell you that as long as I am mayor, I will not allow police numbers to

:52:36.:52:40.

fall below a level that I believe it is safe or reasonable - how can

:52:40.:52:43.

that be true for London and not for the rest of the country? I don't

:52:43.:52:50.

think it is the case that it is only true for London. But you're

:52:50.:52:55.

cutting 16,000. I'm sure you know this very well, but central

:52:55.:53:00.

government sets funding for the police, the police then have a

:53:00.:53:04.

precept power, to raise extra money locally, and then chief constables

:53:04.:53:07.

will decide within that budget how many police officers they wish to

:53:07.:53:16.

have. Obviously, the Mayor of London is, if you like, almost a

:53:16.:53:20.

crime commission. We have to take some measures to bring them into

:53:20.:53:26.

line. But as Mayor, he is able to make decisions about how his budget

:53:26.:53:31.

is spent. He thinks that to keep Londoners saved, he needs 1,000

:53:31.:53:36.

extra police, and he's going to keep it that way. -- safe. But

:53:36.:53:40.

there will be a reduction in the rest of police -- numbers of police

:53:41.:53:46.

in the rest of the country - you cannot both be right. I'm not sure

:53:46.:53:53.

I follow your point. Every chief constable will be making a decision

:53:53.:53:57.

about how their budget will be spent, in discussion with their

:53:57.:54:01.

police authority. In London, there's a Mayor as well as the

:54:01.:54:03.

Metropolitan Police Authority. And Boris will be making decisions

:54:04.:54:07.

about how the budget will be spent, and what he wishes to do in terms

:54:07.:54:11.

of police numbers. There are chief constables elsewhere in the country

:54:12.:54:15.

who, despite the budget cuts, are making sure they have got more

:54:15.:54:23.

police on the streets by changes their making. There is a Chief

:54:23.:54:26.

Constable who's looking at recruiting more officers, outside

:54:26.:54:30.

London. So, people are looking within their budget at how they

:54:30.:54:35.

deploy resources in terms of the number of officers. Is it your

:54:35.:54:39.

contention that these cuts can be made without a reduction in the

:54:39.:54:43.

number of police we will see on the streets? It is my contention that

:54:43.:54:48.

the cuts can be made without affecting frontline services. We

:54:48.:54:51.

have heard chief constables up and down the country showing that that

:54:51.:54:56.

is where they are putting the focus, in terms of... But will there be

:54:56.:55:01.

more or fewer police on the streets, after these cuts? People want to

:55:01.:55:05.

see more... I'm getting rid of some of the bureaucracy which will allow

:55:05.:55:10.

police to get on the streets. will there be more or fewer police

:55:10.:55:14.

on the streets after these cuts? want to get rid of some other

:55:14.:55:18.

things which are tying up the police and preventing them from

:55:18.:55:28.
:55:28.:55:28.

getting out on the streets. We saw the impact of police numbers on the

:55:29.:55:34.

riots. Since the riots, there was some anecdotal evidence that crimes

:55:34.:55:38.

in places like Croydon have drastically fallen - do you have

:55:38.:55:41.

information on that? I have not seen the latest crime figures for

:55:41.:55:45.

those areas. But of course, what happened during the riots was that

:55:45.:55:48.

a number of people have been arrested following the riots, and

:55:48.:55:55.

some of those were taken into custody. Does that not suggest that

:55:55.:56:02.

contrary to Ken Clarke's assertions, short sentences work? Actually, Ken

:56:02.:56:05.

Clarke has been saying that actually we need a variety of

:56:05.:56:10.

sentences, which can be applicable at different times. But if crime

:56:10.:56:17.

has fallen because the bad guys have been put away, that would

:56:17.:56:22.

suggest that prison does work. all think, in government, that

:56:22.:56:27.

prison must work better. Ken was talking here at conference today,

:56:27.:56:31.

and as he was saying, there is a big issue about reoffending. About

:56:31.:56:34.

three-quarters of those people who were arrested in the riots had a

:56:34.:56:38.

previous criminal record. A quarter of them have more than 10 previous

:56:38.:56:43.

offences. That tells us we're doing something wrong in terms of dealing

:56:43.:56:48.

with reoffending, which is what Ken has been talking about. You say you

:56:48.:56:51.

do not know what has happened to crime in those areas since the

:56:51.:56:57.

riots. If you were in New York, you would have daily figures on the

:56:57.:57:02.

spikes and falls in crime - do you not get that? You get that daily in

:57:02.:57:12.
:57:12.:57:13.

new no,... You're actually now arguing for our policies on crime

:57:13.:57:18.

commissioners. In New York, there is one person job and responsible

:57:18.:57:21.

for policing in New York, and the equivalent is Boris Johnson in

:57:21.:57:31.
:57:31.:57:33.

London. Police forces will have different systems, and chief

:57:33.:57:37.

constables up and down the country will be looking on a daily basis at

:57:37.:57:45.

figures for crime in their area. immigration, the party's policy in

:57:45.:57:48.

the election was to get net immigration down into the tens of

:57:48.:57:56.

thousands. In 2008, it was 163,000. In 2009, it was more than 109,000.

:57:56.:58:04.

In 2010, it was more than 230,000. Will 2011 see a reverse in that

:58:04.:58:09.

trend? As you will know, it takes time for any changes in the

:58:09.:58:15.

immigration rules to work their way through in terms of numbers. This

:58:15.:58:19.

is the first year from April that we have got the full figures with

:58:19.:58:25.

the cap on migrants from outside the EU. It will be a long while

:58:25.:58:29.

until we get to tens of thousands. We are putting in place the

:58:29.:58:33.

measures which are necessary to bring down that migration. We have

:58:33.:58:39.

got the statement from the judiciary, it says, the basis was

:58:39.:58:43.