Syria Debate and Vote BBC News Special

I'm Ben Brown live at Westminster, where the decision to launch

British air strikes in Syria will soon be voted upon by MPs.

There have been sharp disagreements today about whether or not to bomb,

but agreement on high the macro how high the stakes are.

The action we propose is legal, it is necessary,

and it is the right thing to do to keep our country safe.

It's becoming increasingly clear that the Prime Minister's

proposals for military action simply do not stack up.

If MPs vote in favour of air strikes, military action could

follow very swiftly. I think we will see tonight, if there is a yes vote,

RAF Tornadoes from Akrotiri on a mission over Syria.

The Government's claims that thousands of Syrian fighters on the

ground are ready to join the fight against IS are being questioned.

Outside Parliament tonight, there has been a protest by demonstrators

who don't want Britain to take action.

And this is the scene live in the House of Commons where MPs

continue the debate - a final vote is expected later tonight.

At around 10pm this evening. I am Julian Worricker. In other

news, in the past few minutes reports of as many as 20 people

wounded in a gun attack east of Los Angeles. There are reports of one to

three attackers who are still being sought by police. We will have the

latest. Good evening

from Westminster where parliament has been debating plans for British

air strikes against so-called The debate was opened by the Prime

Minister, who warned that Britain couldn't afford to sit back and wait

for an attack here in the UK. But Mr Cameron faced persistent

criticism from opposition MPs after he'd described those against air

strikes as terrorist sympathisers. Labour's Jeremy Corbyn said

the Government's plans were misguided and could well make

matters worse in Syria. We'll be bringing you more

of the action in the House of Commons later this hour,

but first here's a flavour of the - I'm absolutely clear that we must

pursue a comprehensive strategy, that also includes political,

diplomatic and humanitarian action. And I know that the long-term

solution in Syria, as in Iraq, must ultimately be a government

that represents all of its people. And one that can work with us to

defeat the evil organisation of Isil But, Mr Speaker,

notwithstanding all of this... Notwithstanding all of this,

there is a simple question We face a fundamental threat to

our security. Isil have brutally murdered British

hostages. They've inspired

the worst terrorist attack against British people since 7/7 on

the beaches of Tunisia, and they've plotted atrocity after atrocity

on the streets here at home. Since November last year

our security services have foiled no further than seven different

plots against our people. So this threat is very real,

and the question is this - do we work with our allies to degrade

and destroy this threat, and do we go after these terrorists in their

heartlands, from where they are plotting to kill British people,

or do we sit back and wait The Prime Minister's attempt to

brand those who plan to vote against the Government

as terrorist sympathisers both demeans the office of the

Prime Minister and, I believe, undermines the seriousness of the

deliberations we are having today. If the Prime Minister now wants to

apologise for those remarks, I'd be Since, Mr Speaker,

the Prime Minister is unmoved, we'll have to move

on with the debate, and I hope... And I hope he will be stronger later

to recognise that, yes, he did make an unfortunate remark

last night, and apologising for it would be very helpful to improve the

atmosphere of this debate today. The Prime Minister

is facing an amendment signed by 110 members of this House, from

six different political parties. I've examined that

list very carefully. I cannot identify a single terrorist

sympathiser among that list. Will he now apologise

for his deeply insulting remarks? I've made very clear, this is

about how we fight terrorism, and there is honour in any vote

that honourable members make. Our French allies have explicitly

asked us for support, and I invite the House to consider how we would

feel, and what we would say if what took place in Paris had happened in

London, if we had explicitly asked France for support

and France had refused. These are These are genuinely extremely

difficult, as well But it is the urgings of the

United Nations and of the socialist government in France that, for me,

have been the tipping point in my A gesture of solidarity, however

sincerely meant, cannot be a Most defence committee members

probably intend to vote for such air strikes, but I shall

vote against air strikes in the absence of credible ground forces

as ineffective and potentially dangerous, just as I voted against

the proposal to bomb Assad in 2013. Indeed, the fact that the British

government wanted to bomb first one side, and then the other in the same

civil war in such a short space of time illustrates to my mind a vacuum

at the heart of our strategy. Just a flavour of the debate.

Our chief political correspondent Vicki Young is in

Vicki, not long to go until the vote, how is it looking? I think the

Government is pretty confident of getting its majority. David Cameron

said he would not bring this vote to the House of Commons unless he were

sure of that. A couple of hours ago I saw a very senior Cabinet minister

who said that as soon as they heard Alan Johnson for Labour and Margaret

Beckett for Labour, who we heard in that he is, they knew they had won.

The question is how many Labour MPs on a free vote decide to God with

the Government. We have her past... Passionate speeches from that side,

and we have heard MPs talking about what they say is the intimidation

may have come under from online activist 's, some talk about protest

is besieging constituency offices. I have been at the Stop The War

protest later and he said that Labour MPs who have voted with the

Government are traitors. So there is another story coming under the big

decision about bombing Syria, about how Labour MPs are feeling. It has

clearly been a very difficult time for many, but the Government will be

pretty sure of getting a majority. They have the Liberal Democrats

onside, the Democratic Unionists, so the question is how big the majority

will be. When we get the votes, which we are

thinking is maybe at around 10:30pm, we are looking for the size of the

majority. What would be, for David Cameron, a good result? They don't

want to just scrape over the line. They have probably got ten of their

own rebels, that is almost counteracted by the Liberal

Democrats and the Democratic Unionist Party. They would hope to

get 50, 60, 70, maybe even more Labour MPs. It is interesting how

the debate has ebbed and flowed. After the elections in May there was

a lot of talk about whether this vote would come back to the House of

Commons, but then it faded away. The election of Jeremy Corbyn, who we

know as opposed to air strikes, put them off the idea. And then those

attacks in Paris really changed everything. But then some pollsters

have said that even the two weeks since the Paris attacks, public

opinion in Britain has shifted, having been in favour, may be moving

away slightly. But I think they will know they will have a good, solid

majority and the Prime Minister has said they feel it is important that

Parliament shows its backing for troops for the apples who will have

of circumstances -- troops for the of circumstances -- troops for the

Thank you, Vicki Young. Outside the Thank you, Vicki Young. Outside the

Houses of Parliament there has been another demonstration by protesters

who don't want to military action, which is military action against

Islamic State in Syria. Keith Doyle has been what Ching as it has

continued. The Stop The War Coalition protest is angrily

demonstrating, many lying down in the street. What is the latest? It

is a very noisy Parliament Square, Tropic has been stopped,

demonstrators laid down on the ground, demonstrating, they say, the

loss of life that would happen if Bonington phase. There are banners

here from trade unions, churches, community groups, and many

individuals. I reckon there are about 2000 people. I am joined by

David and John, why have you come here today, why is it important? It

is important to show that a lot of people are against the hypocrisy of

these actions in the Middle East. It is a cynical ploy. Why aren't we

looking at whether money is coming from for Isis? The Saudis are

funding them, the Turks have bought their oil. Why are we doing deals

with these people? Why are we just adding more bombs? Ultimately, this

bombing will not help the Syrian people. We cannot guarantee that the

70,000 alleged supporter friendly forces are, indeed, friendly and

supportive towards the UK. If it will not help the Syrian people, we

should not be doing it. There are many thousands of people here this

evening. There are many opposite views being debated in the House of

Commons right across the road. The protesters here say they will be

here right until the 10pm vote, and while afterwards. Back to you from a

very noisy Parliament Square. We are a few hundred yards down the

road from Keith. Let me tell you about the Parliamentary choreography

and the timetable for later on this evening. There will be two votes,

the first is on an amendment against air strikes on Syria, opposed by

Conservative MP John Barron and Angus Robertson of the SNP, that

will be voted on at around 10pm. The main votes on the main Government

motion proposed by David Cameron and others in the Government, we should

get the result at around 10:30pm, 10:35pm. Stay tuned throughout the

evening, full coverage of the debate and the vote later this evening.

Actor Julian now. Thank you, Ben Brown.

Moving away from Westminster for a moment to get more on the news that

broke in the last half-hour or so this multiple shooting in

California. Reports of at least 20 people being wounded in this gun

attack. Talk of between one and maybe as many as three active

shooters, as police say, still at large. Police making that comment

public in the last little while. This is the shot from close to the

scene. One man says that his daughter is trapped in a building.

We can hear what he is saying now? My daughter is in there. She texts

it is about 30 minutes ago and said that there was a shooter. She

thought he had shot ten to 20 people. And they were... (INAUDIBLE)

Terry Petty talking about the fact that his daughter was inside the

building, where we think the shooters are at large, and others

may well be hiding in there as well. Gary O'Donoghue is following the

events from Washington. Very early stages in terms of details, what do

you have? At the moment, we are still looking at what looks like an

active situation, what the Americans turn and active shooter or

shooters. There could be up to three people. There have been reports that

at least one of them may have been seen leaving the area of the

shooting in a black SUV, a black four x four car, that is unconfirmed

at this stage. There are reports of up to 20 victims, some of them

saying a dozen Vitalis ease. Nothing of that is confirmed that this stage

-- some of them are saying a dozen Vitalis ease. Police are evacuating,

people are being evacuated from the area of San Bernardino, where this

has taken place. It is a fairly big place. A population of 200 those

and, it is a medium-sized city. This was coming up to lunchtime. It had

been pretty busy around that area. -- of around 200,000. We know that

the shooting took base in something called the England Regional Centre,

it looks like quite a big tilting. At least part of that ill doing is

used to look after disabled children. We had a man who said his

wife works in that Golding, who had heard people coming and shooting,

they had locked themselves in their office, seen bodies on the floor. We

know that the emergency services have been evacuating some of the

injured. There is still a good deal of confusion about exactly what is

going on in San Bernardino, this is clearly a major, major incident. We

have no idea at this stage what the motivation might be. There are

reports that the gunman or gunman web apps wearing body armour,

creating a degree of organisation and planning -- the gunman or gunmen

were perhaps wearing body armour. It seems like something serious is

happening, we are waiting to find out more facts.

The pictures point towards some confusion as we watch people moving

away into a large group. We can see the fire engine on the street. The

authority figures as well. We played that little clip from the man

worried about his daughter which perfectly illustrates how much

anxiety there must be amongst people who know that they have got a loved

1's inside this building. It is that anxiety that has reinforced by the

ability for people to communicate from a fine these situations to the

loved ones outside. Some of the fear that they argument is communicated

to those on the outside and that is what we are seeing here. We have

earlier from a man whose wife was inside the Inland Regional Centre.

There is a long way to go to find out what is happening. We are not

clear as to whether the police have went anywhere near to the people

doing the shooting, whether they have left the area at this point in

time. We know that the roads have been closed immediately around where

the shooting took place. That does not mean that the people did not get

out before that happened. The police are trying to clear the area of

people so that they can search it properly. They will need to go

through the area bit by bit, foot by foot, making sure that the place is

safe. The ambulances will want to get into the move those who are

injured. That is before any kind of calm can be re-established in the

area. It is difficult to know. The atmosphere in San Bernardino must be

one panic at the moment. No one knows exactly, it appears that no

one knows where the gunmen or the poodle gun men are at the moment. We

do not know if this is organised or political. If it is political

vendetta has the potential for further attacks in the area and that

is something the police will be a weird off if they have not been able

to apprehend the shooters. Thank you very much. I was reading one quote

from a nearby gas station about one block from the shooting we are the

store manager talked about a flood of police activity. She said maybe

150 people going towards a particular street. She's book about

hospitality Lane in the area. She said personally but she did not have

any instructions to see inside the customers coming in with telling her

about the shootings. -- to stay inside. The centre provides care for

people with disabilities. Still a great deal of information to come.

We will bring that to you as and when we can. In the meantime, the

main issue of the evening is the debate in Westminster. Let us go

back. The debate in the chamber of the House of Commons reaching its

conclusion. We expect the voting to begin around 10pm. It has been a

powerful and passionate arguments on both sides. Syria meanwhile,

President Assad has dismissed the significance of Western air strikes

against Islamic State targets. The only meaningful intervention he

says, is from Russia which has changed the situation.

It has not even been on the evening news. That is a measure of how many

players are involved in this tangled conflict. And just how hard life is

for Syrians and that they are focusing on getting by. Everyone I

asked the question to about possible British action welcomed it will stop

in this capital which is largely under government control, there also

was a warning. Unless the campaign was coordinated with President Assad

and the Syrian army, it would not work. That is what Russia is doing.

That is what the West and the Arab states backing the opposition

refused to do. They are blaming President Assad and his forces for

the bombardment that is prolonging the war. There is a heady sense

amongst people here think the war is going to drag on. I am joined

outside the house is of Parliament by the head of the political

research for YouGov and Kaplan Dixon who is programme director of

transparency International. Latest talk about the question of whether

Britain should join the air strikes in Syria. What is the latest rolling

evidence? The latest evidence show that just under half of people think

we should take action, air strikes in Syria. One third of people are

opposed. That is a big change over what we have been seeing over the

last couple of months we are six out of ten people supported air strikes.

And one in five people were opposed. Big change in the last seven days.

At this stage, it is not where public opinion is now is important,

it is where the opinion will be at the end of any action if it does

take place. What do you put that recent change down to? It is

impossible to say precisely but my sense is that up until the last

week, people had the bright idea that ISIS was a threat to Britain.

-- broad idea. And something had to be done. They were not quite sure

what and air strikes read a convenient short cut. Over the last

seven days they have started thinking about it. People are

thinking, is this necessarily the right solution? What about ground

troops? People are evenly divided on going fruits. -- ground troops. What

are your thoughts? The Commons about to vote in a couple of hours' time

for air strikes over Syria. This took us looks like a short-term

plan. As the boat goes on behind us we should remember that no skill of

efforts to head back to those who would seek to do us harm would solve

the problem. In the long term, we have to tackle the causes of

radicalisation in the Middle East. That ultimately is the corrupt and

unaccountable governments that are spread across the region. That is in

the long-term. David Cameron would say in the short term we have to

protect our citizens and the best way to do that is by hitting Islamic

State. Davis Tull doubt that our defence and security institutions

need to take action to keep us safe. As the boat goes on we have to think

about what happens tomorrow and how in the long term we create ability

in that region. People join a radical movements when they lose

total faith in people in power. You wonder if any government outside of

said Jeff has the power to influence it for the better in any way? This

is a problem. It is of our making. We have poured in security

assistance to corrupt governments and we have engaged in defence

sales. We now have little hope of containing the weapons that have

been unleashed across the region and we have to think about tomorrow and

our foreign policy to secure stability across the Middle East.

Public opinion, to what extent do you think the Iraq war and the

massive national debate that there was before and after the Iraq war,

has that covered public perceptions about whether or not British forces

should intervene in Syria? The point about long-term change is important.

In advance of the Iraq war, the majority of people, small majority,

believed we should be going to war. Lots of been lost since then and

there are reasons why people thought that. The situation changed on the

ground. We know from our work in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in Libya,

that the situation on the ground can change public opinion massively in a

short period of time. People can start off on the right side of

public opinion as Tony Blair was in Iraq but years down the line, you

can find that you are on the wrong side of public opinion at the end.

We have seen with Iraq and Libya, it is one thing to start military

action but we had it goes, the endgame is very difficult indeed? We

have seen chaos in Iraq and Libya. Iraq is a very good case in point.

We went in with the right intentions but one decade of spending and

security assistance to that army, it disintegrated at the first sign of

battle. We have to think about the day after and how we build integrity

into the governments that we are supporting for the long-term. The

vote tonight, how important is that for the government to get a solid

majority? Might that influence public opinion in the sense that

Parliament appears to be behind this military action if it does vote yes?

It has the potential to do so. If the country appears divided through

Parliament, if Parliament is divided then it could be that the people

say, I want to think about it more. It is really difficult to say. At

this stage, people are starting to think about it. Public opinion is

moving all over the place. It could be we see a rallying around the flag

of the opposite. It is interesting that MPs, the vote according to the

conscience, I wonder to what extent they are influenced by their

constituents? MPs say they represent their constituents but also listen

to the comp -- conscience, they never listen to the polls in the

same way that actors say they never read the reviews. All of these

things go into consideration. They will have to think very hard about

FTR going to be elected next time based on this. Nobody wants going

around -- put around their neck that Tony Blair had. It is an important

day. To reflect on this government and governments across the Japan US,

make sure we do not support the president Qaddafi of President

Mubarak of the future. The start of the Arab Spring, the public anger at

least art -- and the abuse of power and we should reflect on policies in

the future. Good to talk to both of you. Our correspondent has been

speaking from Cyprus. After the news that the US government said that

their hopes that the UK MPs would support military action, I put it to

him that UK jets could be in action. There will be that political

pressure first of all back at home that the RAF is seen to make a

difference to this fight. There is also pressure from America. They

want Britain to take part. In part because the -- Britain has

capabilities, the Brimstone missile which has a low blast area and can

target moving cars, vehicles etc. And they have these raptor pods

which give surveillance. They can provide intelligence to the battle

on the ground. There are capabilities that the UK brings. We

will see tonight, if there is a yes vote, RAF tornadoes here from

Akrotiri in the skies on a mission over Syria. They may have been given

pre-selected targets by the US-led coalition. We will get news on that

in the morning if there is indeed a yes vote. They were also be

reinforcements coming here if there is a yes vote. There will be another

two tornadoes to add to the eight that are already here and there will

be six Typhoon jets coming probably from RAF Lossiemouth. The Typhoon

jet does not fire the Brimstone missile. Only the tornado can do

that. They can drop the laser-guided bombs that can hit static targets.

We have a larger blast area. The RAF say that they do not think and

cannot prove that because they do not have people on the ground, that

they have not caused any civilian casualties.

Jonathan, in some ways this will not be a dramatic extension of the RAF

mission, it is a continuation of what they have done anyway against

Islamic State targets in Iraq? You have the drama at Westminster, that

will not reflected in the military campaign, certainly not immediately.

This will not be shock and awe, for example, it will be what the RAF has

been doing over Iraq for the past year. To give you a sense of what

has happened, they have carried out six 200 combat sorties, not just the

planes here but those unmanned Reaper aircraft from a base in the

Middle East, there are ten of them. They carried out 1600 combat sorties

but only fired their weapons on about a quarter of those missions,

fewer than 400 air strikes. What happened in Iraq is likely to happen

in Syria. There have been fewer as strikes in Syria for the whole

coalition than four Iraq. They have people on the ground there, the

Peshmerga, the Iraqi security forces, to call in those air

strikes. They don't have the same force on the ground, for the moment

at least, in Syria. You will not see a June two difference to what the

RAF has been doing. You will see more planes and aircraft. -- you

will not see a dramatic difference. It is similar to what the RAF has

already done for the last year. Jonathan Beale reporting from RAF

Akrotiri. I am joined by Patrick Cockburn, Middle East correspondence

for the Independent newspaper and author of The Rise Of Islamic State.

He was quoted in the Commons by one MP. We are coming up to the vote,

what are your thoughts? I thought it was good, that all different

arguments came out. You know... People are clear what a monstrous

organisation Isis is, that it should be eliminated, but I think that

people don't quite take on board that it is quite strong, and how

difficult this will be to do, and how we don't really have partners on

the ground. That is my main fear, just as in Iraq and Afghanistan we

imagined we had local allies, that were either very feeble all

basically fictitious. Your piece in the Independent today said it was

wishful thinking. David Cameron has talked about 70,000 moderate Syrian

fighters, potentially taking on IS after air strikes, you think that is

wishful thinking? It certainly is. If you went out in Syria today with

a few suitcases of money, you could find 70,000 fighters. But often

these are guys with a rusty Kalashnikov, they are guys following

their local plan or their local tribal leader or their local

village. Certainly it is announced that they are in favour of the

rulers. These are very local fellows. Maybe they hate Isis, they

hate Assad, but they hate the next village even more. The basic subtext

of this is we have a potential army here which means we don't have to

choose between Isis and Assad. There is another third force that can come

in and save us and we will ally ourselves with that, that will be OK

and we will have a potential ally, but it is just not there. David

Cameron says the only way to destroy Isis is to cut off the snake pars

head, as he puts it, in Syria. Do you accept that? It is a gorilla

macro organisation, the whole point of that is there is more than one

snake pars head. Yes, Rakip, -- Raqqa, but Iraqi cities are bigger.

I don't think there is an Isis Pentagon in the Raqqa that we can

isolate and band. We know that guerrila organisations -- guerrilla

organisations do not work like that. It is decentralised, they are units

of eight to ten men. Their mission comes from their leader, then they

attack and do what they want. There is not a central organisation that

you can wipe it out and cut off the snake pars head in quite a precise

way. Patrick Cockburn, thank you for being with us.

The debate is continuing in the chamber, the vote is that just after

10pm but, for now, I will take you back to Julian in the studio.

At this point I can update as far as we can on events in California with

regards to this shooting incident, police are saying they are searching

for one or all gunman after a shooting at a social services the

city that macro facility in San Bernardino, about 60 miles east of

Los Angeles. There are now reports that three people have died in this

incident. The first of those reports came from an NBC affiliate reporter

who said that he had seen three bodies at that shooting, and not

long after that another media organisation was talking about law

enforcement officers saying that three people had died in that

shooting incident. I am just looking at a line coming out of Washington,

that President Obama has been briefed on this mass shooting,

according to a White House official, and these are live shots that I am

showing you as you are updating, so you can see the activity on the

ground in terms of the number of vehicles parked up, the emergency

services vehicles and the crowds, some of whom are gathering on that

Carmack 's top Park -- tarmac car park, which I imagine is a safe

assembly point identified by the authorities, but it appears to be an

ongoing incident and no arrests have been made as far as I am aware. Let

me bring in our correspondents in Washington. I have given a few

little pinpoints of the latest information, bring us up to date on

other aspects? To recover the police have told us, they say they are

searching for up to three gunmen, and this remains what they describe

in the US as an active shooter situation, meaning it is very much

an ongoing police incident. They are still searching for the suspect.

They have a large perimeter involved in their search. They say they are

trying to secure the building. Some of the pictures that you may see

show that many people have left the building. From what with the cis

have been telling local news in the area, many people are still trapped

in the building -- from what witnesses have been telling. One man

told the local news station that his wife works in that centre and saw

bodies on the floor, she did not see the gunmen herself but she said she

heard shots and she is holed up in her office as police searched the

building to try to secure it. Another witness told local news that

his daughter worked at the centre, he got a text from her saying she

was hiding while there were gunshots. It is unclear at the

moment how many people worked in that centre. Local media says as

many as 200 people. It was a centre for people with disabilities and

learning difficulties. I am looking at another report as you were

talking, this is a San Bernardino police officer quoted as saying, and

this is a mess and the talking about this, that a suspect is still at

large wearing tactical gear and potentially heavily armed. -- and

this is MSNBC talking about this. We do not know how many people were

involved and if they are at large. Eyesores in thing not too long ago

from the local sheriff who says that police do not know whether Head are

but they believe they are heavily armed. They believe they could be

looking at up to three people. That is one of their concerns. They say

officers are still in the building doing a complete search, but they

say there is the possibility that they are wearing some kind of body

armour and are heavily armed themselves. Judging from the live

pictures that you will have seen, this is quite a big area will stop

it is a sizeable town will stop people may not have heard of San

Bernardino, but it is sizeable within reach of Los Angeles. Yes,

and their search barometer is fairly wide in terms of the areas that they

are searching at the moment, not just the centre sell. San Bernardino

is around 60 miles east of Los Angeles, a population of around two

thirds -- 200,000. Struggled to rebound after 2012 when it declared

bankrupt the, and it is about 214,000, to be specific. Some

economic problems in the area. This centre was for people with

disabilities and learning difficulties. Witnesses say around

200 people worked there. From all accounts, from what we are hearing

from local news, there are people hiding inside the building in their

offices while police deem this an active shooter situation. Rajini

Vaidyanathan, thank you. The president has been briefed on events

in California. Just a quote, he has been briefed by his homeland

security adviser Lisa Monaco about the shooting and has asked to be

updated on the situation as it develops, that is a White House

official quoted in the last few moments. Three people reported to

have been killed in that shooting, others wounded. It is still very

much an ongoing situation in terms of the number of vehicles and

emergency services personnel. People in the middle of the shots have been

assembled, presumably in a safe area away from where the shooting

incident took place. Still a huge question as to the whereabouts of

the individuals concerned. It may be one shooter or as many as three.

Police still have not made, we are told, any arrests. We will obviously

keep you abreast of all the events in California as we can throughout

the evening, that in the meantime, let's return to Ben Brown at

Westminster. Thank you, Julian. About an hour or

so to go on the debate on whether or not Britain should take part in air

strikes against Islamic State in Syria. We expect a vote at around

10pm. An amendment, first ball, MPs will vote on, then the main

Government motion, we should get the results at around about 10:30pm. A

to a climax. Outside the Palace of to a climax. Outside the Palace of

Westminster there has been a demonstration this evening, many of

the Stop the War Coalition demonstrators and protesters from

other groups, many of them are lying on the road to symbolise what they

say would be the dead civilians, people who would be killed if there

are RAF air strikes over IS targets in rack and other parts of Syria.

The demonstration has been continuing, several hundred

protesters in Parliament Square. Our chief political correspondent

Vicki Young is in Parliament's As we say, the vote is expected at

about 10:30pm. What would represent, for David Cameron, a good night? I

think they are looking for dozens of Labour MPs to back them. There is a

difference in how both sides are operating. On the Conservative

side, MPs are being whipped, told what to do, by party managers. On

the other, Labour has a free vote. The Tories will expect maybe ten or

15 to defy that whip, on the Labour sided looks like there will be

dozens of Labour MPs speaking out. One of the factors we have heard

about a loss is Labour MPs who want to back the Government are feeling

like they are coming under pressure from party activist, some of which

has been pretty distasteful, they feel they are under pressure, many

say they will vote according to conscience. David Cameron has sat in

there for several hours today listing to watch people had to say.

If you look and listen to this Labour backbencher, you can see his

response as she makes her case, saying she will support him. I

believe, Mr Speaker, that we are right to be sceptical of our own

capacities, that I don't think we should be sceptical of the Syrian

people. Rather, we should offer them refuge now and I were backing

tomorrow. Whatever choice we all make, we had to live with it, and I

will have to face my constituents and explain myself to them on the

decision I take, but that is absolutely nothing in comparison to

what the Syrian people have faced. Too much in the past five years, I

think, we have seen those in need and turned away, and we must not

now. I might not trust the Prime Minister that much, Mr Speaker, that

in the end the solution to that mistrust is in my hands. If I vote

for his motion today, I want him to know that I will be here every week

holding him to account. You can hear some concern from

Labour MPs, even those who will vote for it strikes. They do is talk

about 70,000 troops on the ground who are not extremists and the West

might be able to work with them. Bit of scepticism about that. The shadow

of the Iraq war is hanging over this place. They are thinking very

carefully about the decision. Joining us now from Nottingham is

Fadi Al-Dairi, country director for Hand in Hand for Syria - a charity

which sends aid to 90% of the What are your thoughts on as

Parliament debates whether to carry out air strikes on your country in

Syria? We totally oppose any strikes. Clearly, civilians would be

affected. As humanitarians, we stress we could not cope with it any

more. There are civilians caught up in ISIS controlled areas and they

will be a target. They cannot leave as they have nowhere else to go.

They have no one to look after them. We need to look at the root cause of

the problem, who created ISIS and why are they there before you can

target them all? We have to look at any previous air strikes. Some

governments have been bombing Syria for the last year and have they

achieved anything, what difference will we make if we interfere?

Without any ground interference, the air strikes will not achieve their

targets, what we hoped for. And the ground achievement can only be done

by the Syrians. Let the Syrians sort themselves out and they need

support. They need support from the UK and the Americans, and other

countries. You accept that Islamic State, ISIS, are a murderous

organisation, a death cult they have been called, surely the best way to

tackle it, one of the easiest ways, is with air strikes over its

headquarters in Iraq? Of course. -- Raqqa. For the Syrian people, they

are equally more criminal. They have to look at how many more people have

been killed by the government of Syria than killed by ISIS.

Supporters of the government's plans on this would say, by attacking

Islamic State in Iraq, it has been weakened. Western forces, including

British forces, could weaken IES even more if they could attack it in

Syria. Supporters could sit in the UK and the side about weakening, it

is about what is on the ground. Is it going to work? The Syrian people

doubt it will work. It will strengthen ISIS. It will strengthen

the government of Syria again. Why everybody is so quick to talk about

military intervention and knock talk about peace? Nobody talks about

empowering the Syrians to get rid of everyone who is causing any

terrorist acts is behaving under the Serbian name. Part of the debate and

part of the reasoning of the Prime Minister and government is that

Islamic State have been killing British citizens and that is why

they want to take action and also to protect British citizens against

future terrorist attacks here. That is perfect and good. At the same

time there is Syrian citizens being killed by ISIS. And different groups

on the ground including the government of Syria. That is the

view of the Syrian people on the ground. We have to look at both

sides of the argument, not just one side. Good to talk to you and to get

your thoughts. During the debate, the Labour leader

Jeremy Corbyn insisted that public opinion was moving in his direction

against the plans for British air strikes. But Mr Corbyn's opponents

are still claiming that he is out of touch with the view of most people

in the UK on how to tackle the threat of IS. Our home editor Mark

Easton has been examining the state In Manchester's People's History

Museum, a building celebrating democracy,

a jury of undecided citizens gathers to reflect upon the case

of dropping British bombs on Syria. When a friend

and ally France has been struck Just go either direction

and write your words. 16 people selected to reflect

the diversity in the city share their hopes and

fears on extending the UK military The initial comments produced

a word cloud Is it right for the UK to join

the air strikes on Syria? I really do not know,

that is a dilemma we all must face. I want to promote peace and love,

love for humanity, and I think the lives of the civilians, the innocent

people in Syria are as valuable We all want peace and harmony but at

the same time where is that going to You almost have to fight fire with

fire and what choice do we have? I have two boys in the forces

and they say that is what we joined But the thing is so many

innocents will suffer, so many. Islamic State, so-called is

extreme and restless... Using BBC News reports to remind

them of the issues, jury members considered

the moral case for air strikes. If this happened in Manchester,

if this happened in London, would we expect other countries to

come to our aid and support? The agreement is one of us is

attacked, we are all attacked. It was Paris

but could have been London. But it will not be stopped in

its tracks, it will keep on going. Not if we do not do anything,

if we sit on our hands. If something happened

in this country, that tomorrow we would have to pick up our worldly

goods and start marching down the If we are going to do air strikes,

the refugees are just going to come We asked the jury to decide

whether the military and strategic Air strikes by themselves will not

make a blind bit of difference, I just think

if we were to bomb Syria we will That is the fear

of someone living in the country, I do not think

the threat is any worse to us I just think bombing is

too indiscriminate. We are dammed if we do and dammed

if we do not, what is the answer? Well thank you all,

you have demonstrated what Like the MPs in London we are

going to ask you to vote. Should

the UK conduct air strikes against Before they came, these 16

citizens said they were undecided. A jury foreman was selected to

deliver the final verdict. Eight people voted yes

and eight people voted no so the result is a tie. The result

because opinion polls of the UK is deeply divided on whether

bombing Syria is the right policy. What all seem to agree upon however

is there are no easy answers. The vote in the House of Commons

will be shortly after 10pm after what has been a passionate and

emotional debate in the Commons. Let us get a flavour from that debate.

Opinion divided on all sides of the house.

We are not bombing or planning to bomb Syria.

My understanding as we are planning to bomb ISIS.

In Syria, we are planning to take on that

My goodness, coming from Northern Ireland, we know what it is

We know what it is like to have to undergo that scrupulous nature

of people trying to assess every movement that you take.

I have great sympathy for the Prime Minister and the Government

I have sympathy for all of those around us who have to take

Whatever chamber they go through tonight or whatever lobby they go

through because it is not an easy decision.

The point that is always central in public debate here in the UK

and in this House is the involvement in disastrous wars in cases deemed

I am grateful for reporting the words of the retired US general

Mike Flynn who ran the US defence intelligence agency,

"The more bombs that we dropped, that just fuels the conflict."

That is very hard for some to hear but it is indeed the truth.

There is no doubt that this is a very difficult and complex set

However I will be voting to extend our air strikes to Syria this

evening and I underline the fundamental issues that have

The first one was does Daesh pose a clear and present danger to

Daesh are an appalling terrorist group,

they are responsible for terrible human rights abuses and war crimes.

We have witnessed atrocities on the beaches of Tunisia,

on the streets of Paris, Ankara and Beirut, and in the skies of Egypt.

We know that seven Daesh plots against the UK have been

I think there is no doubt that they pose a clear

and present danger to the UK, at home and abroad, and to our allies.

There have been many powerful speeches and I admire those people

who have such a certainty of view about this which I do not share.

I suspect for that reason that many people will find it difficult

Many people in the country, many good people are full of doubts.

I was talking to an Arab friend only yesterday who

He said, you are not being honest, the British Parliament,

you have to go to war if you want to on the basis that your friends

Your closest friends and allies are French and the Americans.

If that is what you want to do then you go ahead and do it.

Bear this in mind, when you go to war, you almost certainly will

not make any difference and you might make things a lot worse.

November will be one of the mildest on record and one of the dullest. It

was nice to see some sunshine coming in for today. This was one of many

we had coming through with sunshine. Many southern areas had sunshine

ahead of this weather front which has been meandering its way

southwards. It will play with the weather for the next 24 hours. It

will feel quite warm in the south compared to the cold air in the

north. It is in hands in the rain. We asked a knit already. It will

come across Wales and Northern Ireland through the night. There are

some flood warnings in force. To the north of that, it is a cold night

and we will start the Die Borussen frost and icy patches. Not to

mention the potential for fog. By morning, we will start to feel the

effect of that dream. Lots of study and standing water and leaning

across North Wales. Further south, just like the day we have had. It

would be mild and quickly give. We will see some brightness but the

window will be smaller than today. The wind will be strengthening all

the time with gales and severe gales across the headlines. It will push

in and intensified the rain for Wales. Northern England and parts of

the Midlands, southern Scotland, East and Northern Ireland. All areas

with rain. The it is -- it is bright and cold. That rain comes through

during the evening and since now temporarily across the Pennines and

Southern uplands. It'll be a quieter to Friday. Driver much of England

and Wales. -- dry for. The snowmelt will continue in the north with some

flood warnings in Scotland. It will not just be wet, it will be windy

with some stormy wind -- stormy weather coming through. It will stay

top into Sunday. I'm Ben Brown live at Westminster,

where in the next hour or so MPs vote on whether to launch British

air strikes in Syria. Party leaders differ sharply over

bombing - but agree on just how The action we propose is legal,

it is necessary - and it is the right thing to do to

keep our country safe. It's becoming increasingly

clear that the Prime Minister's proposals for military action

simply do not stack up. If MPs vote in favour

of air strikes, military action I think that we will see tonight, if

there is a gas vote, RAF tornadoes from Akrotiri on the skies -- if

there is a yes vote, RAF Tornadoes from Akrotiri in the skies.

The Government's claims that thousands of Syrian fighters on the

ground are ready to join the fight against IS are being questioned.

And this is the scene live in the House of Commons where MPs

continue the debate - a final vote is expected later tonight.

There is another hour or so of debate and then the vote at around

10pm. Unconfirmed reports suggest up to 12

people have been killed in a shooting incident

in southern California. My daughter is in

say around 20 are wounded. My daughter is in there, she texted

is about 30 minutes ago and said there was a shooter. She thought he

had shot ten to 20 people. And that they were hiding.

At least one school is said to be in lockdown.

Good evening and welcome to BBC News.

We'll be with Ben at Westminster shortly for all the very latest

but first back to our breaking news this evening and there are reports

of multiple casualties in a shooting incident near a golf course

And reports that up to 12 people may have died. There are reports of one

to three active shooters who may still be at large. As we showed you

some of the pictures from the incident earlier, I will try to

update as best as I can with the latest information coming in from

various news agencies. The shooting took place at a social services

centre in Dan Burn Dino, a town 60 miles east of Los Angeles, a

sizeable Towler of more than 200,000 people. -- of San Bernardino. One

school is reported to be in lockdown, that is confirmed by

reports from the others -- from the Associated Press. Other stores and

buildings are in lockdown. Initially there were suggestions that three

people had died, but now there are reports that as many as 12 people

may have been killed. We are hearing for the report that several people

locked themselves into offices and took cover as the shooting incident

began. It comes three weeks after the Paris attacks that left 130

people dead, unsurprisingly President Obama with very quickly

briefed on the situation, specifically by his homeland

security adviser, but I should stress that police are shedding no

immediate light on a motive. The pictures that you can see were from

a little earlier as people were wheeled away from the scene on

various stretches, various gurneys. We were told that tree arch units

were set up outside this inland regionals centre. It is a centre

specifically serving people with what are described as developmental

disabilities. While some were wheeled away on stretchers, as you

saw, significant numbers of April were walking away the scene, in some

cases, as you may have seen, walking away with their hands up being

searched by police before being reunited with loved ones. This is

the live scene in San Bernardino. You can see on either side of the

road so many vehicles parked up, a police vehicle to the right. The

implication of these pictures and so many other reports that I have read

in the last half-hour or so is that this is very much an ongoing

incidents, with the suggestion of one shooter, maybe as many as three,

still possibly at large. Certainly no arrest has been made as far as

these police report suggest. One of two eyewitness report is,

inevitably, have been coming in. We have heard from a man called Terry

whose daughter works at the centre, he got a text from her saying she

was hiding in the building after hearing gunshots. He,

understandably, was very emotional as he read the text for reporters

out site the centre. It was a very bleak report that he read, people

shot, pray for us, I am locked in an office. There was a quote from

someone called markers, whose wife was in the building when the gunfire

erupted. He said a shooter entered the building next to his wife 's

office and opened fire, he is quoted to a local television station said

simply they locked themselves in her office, they have seen bodies on the

floor, adding that his wife was able to get out of the building unharmed.

This live shot from significantly above the scene gives you a sense of

the scale of the emergency service activity. This, of course, is

lunchtime. It was late morning/lunchtime in San

Bernardino, a sizeable city with a 200,000 population, 60 miles east of

Los Angeles. This inland to the centre is a sizeable complex. One of

two of the earlier shot you were looking at gives you a sense of the

scale of the area and therefore the scale of the police activity. The

San Bernardino police departments, Reuters reporting, a spokeswoman the

police says that it appears there are multiple shooters in this

Californian city, and that the attackers are described as being in

military style attire which echoes a report that I read earlier on, a

Reuters report, quoting the police department spokeswoman, talking

about the attire of multiple shooters. There is not a figure

given, but they are talking specifically about more than one.

That is what Reuters as saying. We are hearing reports of possibly 12

people dying in this shooting incident, we will keep you abreast

of all of those events in the last few hours.

Let's go back to Westminster as MPs continue to debate air strikes

Thank you, junior and -- Julian Another 15 minutes or so before the

vote, which is expected at around 10pm. The first one is on an

amendment and the other one is on the main Usman 's motion -- the main

Government motion. It has been a powerful and sometimes emotional

debate. The debate was opened this morning by the Prime Minister, who

warned that Britain could not afford to sit back and wait for an attack.

He faced persistent criticism from opposition MPs because of what he

said last night in a meeting with Tory backbenchers when he described

those against air strikes, in his words, as terrorist sympathisers.

Labour 's Jeremy Corbyn said the Government's plans were misguided

and could make matters worse in Syria.

We'll be bringing you more of the action in the House

of Commons later this hour, but first here's a flavour of the -

I'm absolutely clear that we must pursue a comprehensive strategy,

that also includes political, diplomatic and humanitarian action.

And I know that the long-term solution in Syria, as in Iraq,

must ultimately be a government that represents all of its people.

And one that can work with us to defeat the evil organisation of Isil

But, Mr Speaker, notwithstanding all of this...

Notwithstanding all of this, there is a simple question

We face a fundamental threat to our security.

Isil have brutally murdered British hostages.

They've inspired the worst terrorist attack

against British people since 7/7 on the beaches of Tunisia, and they've

plotted atrocity after atrocity on the streets here at home.

Since November last year our security services have foiled

no further than seven different plots against our people.

So this threat is very real, and the question is this - do we

work with our allies to degrade and destroy this threat, and do we

go after these terrorists in their heartlands, from where they are

plotting to kill British people, or do we sit back and wait

The Prime Minister's attempt to brand those who plan to vote

against the Government as terrorist sympathisers both

demeans the office of the Prime Minister and, I believe,

undermines the seriousness of the deliberations we are having today.

If the Prime Minister now wants to apologise for those remarks, I'd be

Since, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister is unmoved,

we'll have to move on with the debate, and I hope...

And I hope he will be stronger later to recognise that, yes,

he did make an unfortunate remark last night, and apologising for it

would be very helpful to improve the atmosphere of this debate today.

The Prime Minister is facing an amendment signed

by 110 members of this House, from six different political parties.

I've examined that list very carefully.

I cannot identify a single terrorist sympathiser among that list.

Will he now apologise for his deeply insulting remarks?

I've made very clear, this is about how we fight terrorism,

and there is honour in any vote that honourable members make.

Our French allies have explicitly asked us for support, and I invite

the House to consider how we would feel, and what we would say if what

took place in Paris had happened in London, if we had explicitly asked

France for support and France had refused. These are

These are genuinely extremely difficult, as well

But it is the urgings of the United Nations and of the socialist

government in France that, for me, have been the tipping point in my

A gesture of solidarity, however sincerely meant, cannot be a

Most defence committee members probably intend to vote

for such air strikes, but I shall vote against air strikes in the

absence of credible ground forces as ineffective and potentially

dangerous, just as I voted against the proposal to bomb Assad in 2013.

Indeed, the fact that the British government wanted to bomb first one

side, and then the other in the same civil war in such a short space of

time illustrates to my mind a vacuum at the heart of our strategy.

That is just a flavour of the debate. The time for talking is

almost over, the voting will be around at about 10pm. Our chief

political correspondence Vicki Young is in the Central Lobby of armament.

Talk as through the mechanics. There is an amendment and then the main

motion? About there is a cross-party and and which would effectively

block military action in Syria. It is a guide, I suppose, to the number

of MPs against military action. Quite often the same people would

not necessarily vote for the first one as the second. That will take

about 15 minutes, then the second vote, so we are looking at about

10:30pm for that result. The Government is very confident it will

win this vote, a senior Cabinet ministers said they were pretty

relaxed, they felt they had the numbers, there would be enough

Labour MPs voting with the Government, taking the lead when

they heard Alan Johnson and Margaret Rakip they felt that they probably

swayed a number of votes in their favour. What has come through in

this mammoth debate, I can't remember when a debate has gone on

for so long, and Cameron has sat in for an awful lot of it, but you get

the impression that MPs have thought hard. For those who went to the Iraq

war vote and regretted it later, they thought very carefully. Also

newly elected MPs, this is the biggest decision they have had to

make since being elected in May, and for some of them it is very hard.

This was one newly elected Conservative MP. Over ten years ago

I marched with 1 million other people against the war. Today, I

believe it is different, there is a United Nations resolution. There are

Arab countries that will align with us. When I go through the yes

lobby... It will be for the refugees and it will be for the security in

Twickenham. You can hear the motion Twickenham. You can hear the motion

for her. And certainly anxiety amongst MPs, even those who feel

they are doing the right thing by voting for the extension of the

retreat and chin. They are anxious about the repercussions and what the

exit strategy will be. They are anxious about what will happen if

Isil is degraded in Syria. Will that leave a gap for somebody to take

over? There are lots of questions that many of them want answered.

David Cameron will get his way tonight. You might be able to hear

some of the protesters who are against British military action in

Syria making their voices heard clear and loud outside the Palace of

Westminster. We will have full coverage of the debate coming up on

BBC News. We will go back to the studio. There is another big

developing story tonight. Thank you very much. It is of course

the story that as many as 12 people may have been shot in San

Bernardino, California. As the gunmen opened fire at a social

services centre in the city 60 miles east of Los Angeles. I am reading

some more information that have Kemen. -- that have came in. The

shooting happened whilst the Inland Regional Center was holding an event

for county personnel inside an auditorium inside the building. The

sand Bernardino police spokeswoman have said that the police have been

told that at least one of the shooters, we are talking about the

poll -- possibility of between one -the active shooters, the police

unable to confirm, one of the shooters may have left the scene and

what is being described as a black SUV. They are talking about multiple

attackers one moment ago. One of them waving some sort of military

outfit. There was the suggestion from one of the other police

spokespeople. Let us bring in Hosea Rodriguez who is a local pastor and

got his near to the scene of the shooting as possible to pray with

the victims. Tell us more about what you have seen in this area in the

last hour or so. It is definitely been chaos and calamity as families

are gathered here waiting to hear from them once to find out if they

are OK. We have seen them escort the rest of the people out of the

building and to get them to a safer location. There are police vehicles

everywhere. We are ready to offer prayer support to families who are

need of it. There are community people out here and they are coming

together in this hard time right now. Can you tell us a little bit

more about this centre, how big it is, how many people may have been

inside? From the bus-load that were loading up, there was quite a few

people, about five buses of people that were in the centre. I do not

know how big the actual building is. They definitely filled up about

five buses full of people. The centre is a social services centre.

Because of the nature of our city, there are quite a few people that

use social services in the city and it was a hot commodity place at the

moment. It was a prime target for people working. What sense have you

got of the emergency services and the handling of the situation at

this point? The corner that we are drawn is extremely secure. There are

several different branches of the emergency services that are here,

all coming together to try to figure out the solution and what exactly

happened, and how we can help to make our city safer. We do not know

afterwards. We have not here, all afterwards. We have not here, all

coming together to try to figure out the solution and what exactly

happened, and how we can help to make our city safer. We do not know

what happened to the gunmen afterwards. We have not heard yet

about -- all they are doing is letting us know they are working on

things. Going back to where the conversation with us began, you will

have came across people outside desperate for information about

people inside, some able to communicate. We have had talks about

what to people who read able to exchange messages with people

trapped inside. People you work dealing with must have been

desperate for news. Absolutely. Lots of tears. People scared of the

unknown. The corner is full of people right now who are trying to

reach people still. It is definitely a very active corner and we are as

close to the building as we can get. They are maybe half a mile away from

the building. We appreciate you coming on the line, thank you very

much indeed. A local pastor who has went to the scene of the shooting at

a hearing reports of it. And spoke to some of the people outside

waiting for news of relatives inside. Let us bring in our

correspondence in Washington. What is the latest you have heard? Police

have been speaking in the last 20 minutes or so and they have given us

a bit of an update about what has been happening. They say that loved

ones need to stay away from the area whilst they get things under

control. They say that all local agencies are working to try to find

the gunmen. This is very much an ongoing situation, one which the

police have invested a lot of resources in. They are still unable

to find the gun men. They have said earlier they believe they are

looking for 1-3 gunmen. They do not know how many. They think it could

be up to the Mac. They have heard from witnesses who have reported

that one of the attackers have -- has left the area in a black SUV but

particular report. They are doing particular report. They are doing

everything that they can. Top as well that one of them could have

been in military attire, that was another line came out of the

police. The police are saying that the gun are heavily armed. And are

possibly wearing body armour. That was the words of the lease Sergeant.

She said that it was not a safe area to be in and it is dangerous. What

we are also healing is a little bit more about the centre itself, the

Inland Regional Center. We have heard from an eyewitness who has

told the media that there was a meeting of county personnel taking

place at the time. And also a woman who barks orders from the Inland

Regional Center also spoke to the media and said that the incident

happened in the conference area and other people say it is the

auditorium. She said it was an outside group that was renting that

space today. She was not at the centre herself so she does not know

who the outside group was but what she is saying and another witness

also saying that an outside group had taken over that space lobby day

and one witness saying it was county personnel who were in that area. A

little bit more from witnesses about what exactly was going on at the

centre. It is a centre for people with developmental difficulties and

disabilities and witnesses say that as many as 200 people work in that

building. Police are seeing that loved ones who are going to be

building to find out how the family are who may well be inside the

building are being urged to stay well away from the area. So that

police can get a handle on it. It is very much an active shooter

situation. That effectively means that the gun men or the individual

man is still on the loose. That means it is an ongoing situation and

DDT was we're getting from the police are dynamic the latest battle

we have heard is the still looking for the gunmen. -- the details we

are getting. Just to reiterate those local reports, local reports that as

many as 12 people may have died. Let us go back to Westminster where that

debate on air strikes in Syria is heading to a conclusion. Thank you.

Just half an hour or so for MPs to have your say. About 150 MPs have

spoken in the debate during the day that has been powerful and

passionate at times. Sometimes emotional as well. We are still to

hear from the Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn and the

Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond. They will wind up the vote on the

amendment and then the main government motion. What is the

latest of the protesters? Good evening from Parliament Square where

there has been lots of emotion and high passion. Thousands of

demonstrators from the stop the War coalition have been protesting for

the last three hours, Strom 6pm. There is tension and the atmosphere

is rising as they get close to the climax at MPM. The crowd has

diminished a little bit but still very vocal and still a large crowd.

Banners from unions, churches and community groups and lots of

individuals. Two of these individuals are joining me now. Why

are you here today, why do you think it is important? I strongly oppose

the bombing of Serbia. It is wrong that this government are hijacking

the voices of the civilians of Syria and leading them into a situation

that will cause mass categories. I am angry that the budgets are being

cut in this country for hospitals and schools but there is suddenly

money for arms and bombs, let us give peace a chance. The Prime

Minister said earlier today that bombing Syria, bombing ISIS will

make us safer in the UK. That is not true. In my opinion. He also able to

us as terrorist sympathisers. We do not have sympathy with terrorists,

it is with the civilians who will lose their lives, homes and

communities and will exacerbate the refugee crisis gripping Europe. What

they feel about the mood? It is likely that the vote will get

through a little over 30 minutes. It is incredible to see so many people

out as they were yesterday and the day before. No matter the outcome,

we are praying from a no vote from the MPs but if we do not get one, it

is prudent to see the opposition. Everyone can see that Labour could

do a better job in four years' time when we fought again. The crowd

chanting vote now and are calling out the individual names of MPs who

will vote with the government. The code will stay here until 10pm and

then well after. Thank you very much.

Let us go back into the chamber before we hear from Hilary Benn, the

Shadow Foreign Secretary. He is supporting air strikes and going

against his party leader, Jeremy Corbyn. And then the Foreign

Secretary himself, Philip Hammond. You can see that the chamber is

packed as it has been for most of the day. It has been an intense

debate and the Prime Minister has been there listening to the

contributions, listening on the front bench very thoughtfully. Many

MPs standing, waiting for the climax of this debate and then the vote

which will start at 10pm with an amendment which would block military

action. And then the vote on the main government motion which is

proposed by the Prime Minister and other senior government figures. Let

us listen to the debate. I condemned those people who have been

intimidating members of this house over the vote tonight. I know that

honourable members weigh these issues are very heavily and whatever

side of the argument they come on, I get them my full respect. Mr

Speaker, I have not been convinced by the government on the presence of

70,000 moderate Iraqi army forces on the ground. I think the government

has failed to make the case exist and they are made up of the number

of very disparate groups, some of several thousand soldiers, some of

the few hundred. It is unfortunately the government has also failed to

make the case about the political side. One of the issues the

government did not address was the treatment of the Sunni minority in

Iraq and the need to address that issue because that will

fundamentally undermined the future of Daesh more than any campaign. And

the bombing campaign with out troops on the ground will not be effective.

The government has failed to make that case and that is why I cannot

support Mr Hilary Benn!

Thank you... Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Before I respond to the

debate, I would like to say this directly to the Prime Minister.

Although my right honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition, and I,

will walk into different division lobbies tonight, I am proud to speak

from the same dispatch box as him. My right honourable friend is not a

terrorist sympathiser. He is an honest, a principled, a decent and a

good man. And I think the Prime Minister must now regret what he

said yesterday, and his failure to do what he should have done today,

which was simply to say, I'm sorry. Now, Mr Speaker, we have had an

intense and impassioned debate, and rightly so, given the clear and

gravity of the decision which rests gravity of the decision which rests

upon the shoulders and the conscience of every single one of

us, and the lives that we hold in our hands tonight will stop and

whatever decision we reach, I hope we will treat one another with

respect. We have heard a number of outstanding speeches, sadly time

will prevent me from acknowledging them all, that I would like to

single out the contributions both for and against the motion from my

honourable and write honourable friends the members for Derby South,

Kingston-upon-Hull West End hassle, Normanton, Pontefract and

Castleford, Barnsley Central, Wakefield, Wolverhampton South East,

Brent North, Liverpool West Derby, Wirral West, Stoke-on-Trent North,

Birmingham Ladywood and the honourable members for radiator,

South West Wiltshire, Tonbridge and mauling, Chichester and Wells. The

question which confronts us in a very, very complex conflict, it's at

its heart a very simple. What should we do with others to confront this

threat to our citizens, our nation, other nations and the people who

suffer under the yoke, the cruel yoke of Daesh? The carnage in Paris

brought home the clear and present danger we face from them. It could

just have easily been London or beads or Birmingham, and it could

still be. -- all Leeds or Birmingham. I believe we have a

moral and brag equal duty to extend the action we are already taking in

Iraq to Syria. I am also clear, and I say this to my colleagues, that

the conditions set out in the emergency resolution passed at the

Labour Party conference in September have been met. We now have a clear

and unambiguous UN Security Council resolution 2249, paragraph five

which specifically calls on member states

measures to redouble and coordinate their efforts to prevent and

suppress terrorist acts committed specifically by Isil, and to

eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts

of Iraq and Syria. The United Nations is asking us to do

something. It is asking us to do something now. It is asking us to

act in Syria as well as in Iraq. It was a Labour government, if the

honourable gentlemen will bear with me, a Labour government that helped

to found the United Nations at the end of the Second World War. And why

did we do so? Because we wanted the nations of the world working

together to deal with threats to international peace and security,

and Daesh is unquestionably that. Given that the United Nations has

passed this resolution, given that such action would be lawful under

Article 51 of the UN Charter, because every state has the right to

defend itself, why would we not uphold the settled will of the

native Nations, particularly when there is such support from within

the region, including from Iraq? We are part of a coalition of over 60

countries, standing together still -- shoulder to shoulder to oppose

their ideology and brutality. We all understand the importance of

bringing an end to the Syrian Civil War, and there is no simple progress

on a peace plan because of the Vienna talks. They are the best hope

we have of achieving a ceasefire -- and there is now some progress on a

peace plan. Why is it vital? Because it will help in the defeat of

Daesh, and because it will enable millions of Syrians who have been

forced to flee to do what every refugee dreams of. They just want to

be able to go home. Mr Speaker, no 1 in this debate doubts the deadly

serious threat we face from Daesh and what they do, although sometimes

we find it hard to live with the reality. We know that in June, four

gay men were thrown off the fifth story of a building in the Syrian

city -- a Syrian city. We know that in August the 82-year-old guardian

of the antiquities of Palmyra, a professor, was beheaded and his

headless body was hung from a traffic light. And we know that in

recent weeks there has been the discovery of mass graves once said

to contain the bodies of older Yazidi women murdered by Daesh

because they were considered too old to be sold for sex. We know they had

killed 30 British Toolis 's injuries year-old, 224 Russian holiday-makers

on a plane, 178 people in suicide awnings in Beirut, Ankara and other

places, 100 30 people in Paris including those young people in the

Bataclan whom Dyche, in trying to justify that bloody slaughter,

called them at the states engaged in prostitution and place. -- called

them at the states. If it had happened here, they could have been

our children. We know they are plotting more attacks. The question

for each of us and for our national security is this, given we know what

they are doing, can we really stand aside and refuse to act fully in our

self defence against those planning these attacks? Can we really leave

to others the responsibility for defending our national security when

it is our responsibility? If we do not act, what message would that

send about our solidarity with those countries that have suffered so

much? Including Iraq and our ally, France. France wants us to stand

with them, and President Hollande, the leader of our sister Socialist

party, has asked for our assistance and help. And as we are undertaking

as strikes in Iraq, where Daesh's hold has been reduced, and we're

doing everything but engage in air strikes in Syria, should we not play

our full part. Mr Speaker, it has been argued that as strikes achieve

nothing. Not so. Look at how Daesh's forward march has been

halted in Iraq. 14 months ago, people were saying they are almost

at the gates of Baghdad. That is why we voted to respond to the Iraqi

government's request for help to defeat them. Look at how their

military capacity and freedom of movement has been put under

pressure. Ask the Kurds about Sinjar and other cities. Of course as

strikes alone will not defeated Daesh, but they make a difference.

-- of course air strikes will not. Because they are giving them a hard

time and it is making it more difficult for them to expand their

territory. I share the concerns expressed this evening about

potential civilian casualties. However, unlike Daesh, none of us

today act with the intent to harm civilians. Rather, we act to protect

civilians from Daesh. Who target innocent people. On the subject of

ground troops to defeat Daesh, there has been much debate about the

figure of 70,000, and the government must better explain that. But we

know that most of them are currently engaged in fighting President Assad,

but I tell you what else we know. Whatever the number, 70,000, 40,000,

80,000, the current size of the opposition forces mean the longer we

leave taking action, the longer Daesh will have to decrease that

number. And so to suggest, Mr Speaker, that air strikes should not

take place until the Syrian Civil War has come to an end misses the

urgency of the terrorist threat that Daesh poses to us and others, and

misunderstands the nature and objectives of the extension to air

strikes being proposed. And of course we should take action. It is

not a contradiction between the two to cut off Daesh's support in the

form of money, fighters and weapons. Of course we should give

humanitarian aid and offer shelter to more refugees, including in this

country, and we should commit to play our full part in helping to

rebuild Syria when the war is over. Now, I accept that there are

legitimate arguments, and we have heard them in the debate, for not

taking this form of action now. It is also clear that many members have

wrestled and, who knows, in the time that is left may still be wrestling,

with what the right thing to do is. And I saved the threat is now, and

there are rarely if ever perfect circumstances in which to deploy

military forces. We heard very powerful testimony for the

honourable member for Ed is bree earlier when she quoted that

passage, and I just want to read what the Kurdistan regional said

last week, and I quote, last June, Daesh captured one third of Iraq

overnight. A few months later attacked the Kurdistan region. Swift

as strikes by Britain, America and France and the actions of our own

Peshmerga saved us. We now have a border of 650 miles with Daesh. We

have pushed them back, and recently captured Singel again -- Sinjar

again. Weston as strikes were vital. But the old border between Iraq and

Syria does not exist. Daesh fighters come and go across this fictional

boundary. That is the argument, Mr Speaker, for treating the two

countries as one. If we are serious about defeating Daesh. Mr Speaker, I

hope the house will bear with me if I direct my closing remarks to my

Labour friends and colleagues on this side of the House. As a party,

we have always been defined by our international is. We believe we have

a responsibility one to another. We never have and we never should walk

by on the other side of the road. And we are here faced by fascist is.

Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they are

superior to every single one of us in this chamber tonight and all of

the people that we represent. They held us in contempt. They hold our

values in contempt. They hold our belief in tolerance and decency in

contempt, they hold our democracy, the means by which we will make our

decision tonight, in contempt. And what we know about fascist is that

they need to be defeated. It is why, as we have heard tonight,

socialist and trade unionist and others joined the International

Brigade in the 1930s, to fight against Franco. It is why this

entire house stood up against Hitler and Mussolini, it is why our party

has always stood up against the denial of human rights and for

justice, and my view, Mr Speaker, is we must now confront this evil. It

is now time for us to do our bit in Syria. That is why I ask my

colleagues to vote for this motion tonight will stop CHEERING

AND APPLAUSE I call the Secretary of State for

common Peshmerga Foreign Commonwealth Office.

I congratulate the member for an expanding exposition of the case

tonight. That will go down as one of the truly great speeches made in

this House of Commons. Mr Speaker, the proposal before the house is

clear, simple and it's pathetic. -- its specific. To carry out air

strikes on ISIS into Syria. The Prime Minister set out the

compelling arguments in favour of taking this argument is part of the

comprehensive strategy for Syria. In response, the leader of the

opposition set out his well-known and well understood principled

objections to military intervention. Objections he has developed over

many years and are obviously sincerely held. I respect those

objections, as such, although I believe them to be profoundly

misguided. It is clear from the Shadow Foreign Secretary's speech

and the speeches from the member for Derby South, the member for

Kingston-upon-Hull West and many other members on the benches

opposite, for many of those benches, the real issue of conscious

at stake is our obligation to act in the best interests of the UK and for

the protection of British citizens. One of the most interesting parts of

the leader of the opposition speech was his repeated refusal to confirm

it is his party 's policy to support the current action in Iraq that this

house voted overwhelmingly for in September, 2014. Not only is he

opposed to extending action to protect Britain against Daesh, but

from his silence he wants to roll back the action we are taking in

and to support the steady erosion of and to support the steady erosion of

Isil controlled by the Iraqi security forces and the patient

anger. I ask him and the party opposite, is that the position of

the Labour Party... Despite its long and honourable tradition, are

fighting what the Right Honourable member for Leeds Central himself has

said it was fascism. I hope we will have confirmation Mr Speaker as soon

as possible that the Labour Party remains committed to the current

action in Iraq. Time is very short. Mr Speaker, we have seen this house

at its best, 104 members in total have spoken. We have helped her

forensic analysis and passionate conviction. I think we can

collectively be satisfied that as a house we have done justice to the

gravity of the subject we are debating. With so many contributions

and only a few minutes remaining, I hope that members and right

honourable members will forgive mean to acknowledge them individually. I

will do my best to address the principal themes and questions that

have arisen during this debate. One of the key issues that has came out

is the need to understand what is the military plan and who is going

to deliver it? I have to say that there appears to be some confusion

about this. Let me try to clarify. We are all agreed in this house that

air strikes alone will not finish Isil. But air strikes will deliver

immediate benefit. They will reduce the external attack planning and

capability, making Britain safer and they will over time degrade Isil and

force a change in its behaviour. They will not alone that create a

vacuum. Honourable members during the course of this debate have

sought to have it both ways. Bombing Isil in Raqqa will not create a

difference and will create a vacuum. They will ultimately need to be a

ground assault on Raqqa supported by air strikes. As the Right Honourable

Lady observed, that will not come in days or weeks, that will come in

months, perhaps in years. That will be before it begins nevermore before

it -- never mind before it ends. We have had questions about ground

forces, where are the ground forces coming from? The context of this is

a comprehensive strategy, a military tracked against Isil and a political

tract against President Assad. And the time for the taking Isil's

heartland in Syria is when the Civil War is ended and a transitional

government is in place and when the world can again support the Serbian

government. So that the Syrian army, the Syrian opposition forces, the

Kurdish forces can turn the forces dashed on guns on Isil, liberating

their own country from this organisation. Supported by the

coalition with training, technical support, intelligence and air power.

Much has been made during the course of this debate about the number of

opposition fighters available to join in that effort. The number of

70,000 is a number produced by the joint intelligence Committee. It is

a number corroborated by the evidence of our US allies. The

situation on the ground is complex. There is a spectrum of views

included in that 70,000 strong force. It includes a large element

of secularists who have views that we would recognise as democratic.

And it also includes Islamist 's. There are Islamist 's in the

parliaments of Kuwait and Tunisia. We can work with Islamist 's who

access the Democratic protest and who are prepared to take part. --

process. The second issue that has arisen during the course of this

debate is the question of the overall strategy. The Prime Minister

was absolutely clear that military action is just one part of the

comprehensive strategy. There has to be a political tract and there has

to be a humanitarian tract. It is clear that we have to pursue the

political tract in parallel with the military. It is the only way to end

the civil war in Syria and bring about the defeat of Isil. Now we

have an international Syrian support group, the Vienna process, that is a

major change in the context. Bringing together all the major

international players behind a common vision of what is needed to

end the war. It includes Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, as well as the

US, UK, France, Turkey and China. For the 1st time, all of these

countries have accepted the need for Syrian lead, Syrian owned political

transition based on the Geneva principles. A concession that will

leave the institutions of the state intact, avoiding the mistakes that

were made in Iraq. Of course differences remain between the

parties, particularly about how President Assad will transition out.

But they have agreed together a time frame for political negotiations

including transitional Government within six months, and a new

constitution and three and fair elections 18 months. I know that

there are those who question the commitment of the United States or

the engagement of Russia in this process. I want to court if I could

from a letter that I have received this morning from the United States

Secretary of State, John Kerry, he says, the United States has long

believed that while military action could reinforce diplomacy, there can

be no military solution to the Civil War in Syria. We have to pursue a

political tract. And at the same time they can be no political deal

with Daesh. They have to be degraded by military force. He goes on to

say, that the BN Process prevents -- gives the best process in four years

for an agreement that will establish a ceasefire and establish a

political process that will be to a new constitution and democratic

elections. They conclude by telling me this, senior Russian officials

have helped to lead the effort to find a common way for work and have

expressed firm commitment to the Geneva principles. Russian leaders

have indicated both publicly and privately on numerous occasions that

they are open to a political transition including a new

constitution and elections. Mr Speaker, the third issue that has

come up several times during the course of today has been the

question of whether air strikes will make a difference. The right

honourable member for Leeds Central and several other members have made

the point that they have been effective in halting the ad vans of

Daesh in Iraq last year and are now contributing to the erosion of Daesh

in Iraq. The UK already provides significant elements of hybrid

session strikes available to the coalition. That high precision

strike will be vital to the campaign in Raqqa. The rules of engagement

are classified but I can tell him that the UK rules of engagement are

among the most destructive in the world. And bringing British

discipline, British skills and British precision weapons to bear

will save lives as we prosecute this campaign. We will minimise civilian

casualties. There is no military logic and no moral logic to

prosecuting Isil in Iraq and not targeting its headquarters in Syria.

Reilly, I would like to turn to the fourth issue that has arisen during

this debate. Will Britain taking part in air strikes increased the

threat to our security? In 2014, there were 15 Isil external attack

plans. This year so far, there have been 150. The scale of this problem

is rising exponentially. Isil already poses a direct threat to the

United Kingdom. 13 British tourists killed on the beaches of Tunisia.

And what could've been a British plane that was down over the deserts

of Egypt. Seven different terrorist plots disrupted by the security

services in the UK in the last 12 months. The judgment of the joint

intelligence Committee and the director-general of the Security

service is that the UK is already a top tier of Isil 's target list.

They hate us for who we are, not for what we do. We have to be clear that

the risks of inaction are far greater than the risks of action. We

have to act now to degrade this threat... We will do it by targeting

the heartland and the control centre. We are not debating tonight

as some would have us believe whether or not to go to war. 15

months ago this House voted overwhelmingly to begin air strikes

against Isil in Iraq. The simple question that we are deciding

tonight is whether to extend those operations to tackle Isil in its