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We can cross now live the Cardiff and Jeremy Corbyn has been setting | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
out his vision to rebuild and transform Britain earlier. | :00:18. | :00:28. | |
Mr Corbyn due in Cardiff. We believe he is about to head up to the stage | :00:29. | :00:36. | |
for this very first head-to-head leadership challenge with Owen | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Smith. As you can see there, the stage being set for him to start | :00:41. | :00:49. | |
speaking shortly. Tonight's debate... To my's debate is a | :00:50. | :00:59. | |
departure from the traditional hustings from last year. Firstly, we | :01:00. | :01:08. | |
are being live. That means everyone is able to watch and the what the | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
candidates have to say. And this time, the candidates will be able to | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
directly debate their positions, which will lead to a lively engaging | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
discussion and help the audience at home understand the position being | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
staked out by each of the two candidates. My name is Catherine | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
Jones. But tonight, I have the task of being the independent moderator | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
this evening. Before we begin, I want to quickly set out how this | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
event will run. Backstage a short while ago, Jeremy Corbyn and Owen | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
Smith drew lots to determine the order in which they would take | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
questions. Over the past week and a half, members and supporters of the | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
Labour Party have been sending in their questions online. There were | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
indeed a significant number of questions so we will try to get to | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
as many of them tonight as possible and get a broad range to reflect | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
that selection. I will put your questions to each | :02:06. | :02:23. | |
candidate in turn and give them 40 seconds each to give the initial | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
answers before opening up the debate between the two candidates. To close | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
the debate this evening, I will invite each candidate to give a | :02:29. | :02:30. | |
speech and why they're the best candidate to lead the Labour Party. | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
Before we kick off, a couple of pieces of housekeeping. If we can | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
ask the audience to refrain from prolonged applause and making | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
comments out of turn. Also, there is more information about the upcoming | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
debates and a form to submit any questions for those debates online. | :02:50. | :02:58. | |
And now, without further ado, let us get on with the debate. For the 2016 | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
Labour leadership election, Jeremy Corbyn, Owen Smith, welcome. So, to | :03:05. | :03:15. | |
open the debate tonight, the first question or request comes from David | :03:16. | :03:23. | |
Appleyard. And Owen Smith, we will ask you to open this. David | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
Appleyard asks, can you convince me the URL the person Theresa May would | :03:30. | :03:40. | |
least like to face? I think I can. I think I have got the ideas in this | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
debate. I think I have got the energy this debate and I think I see | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
very clearly what we need to be, which is a powerful credible | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
opposition to the Tory party. They are riding roughshod over us. We | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
have less to Europe. We have got a bankrupt NHS that is destroying | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
Labour's legacy, overcrowding and schools, and we have got carried the | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
fight to the Tories much more vigorously than recent months. I | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
demonstrate in the way for the tax credits issue and turned it, the way | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
in which I bought the cuts to disabled people, I know how to fight | :04:20. | :04:34. | |
these the these Tories. Jeremy Corbyn, can you convince David | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
Appleyard your other person that Theresa May would least like to face | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
at the next general election? Theresa May is a Tory Prime Minister | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
and is likely to preside over a bargain basement economy that will | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
tackle all of our rights, living standards in public services. She | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
does not understand the strength of ordinary people's feelings all over | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
the country which is why I have tried to change Prime Minister's | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
Questions from a public school put into asking the questions are put to | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
me by ordinary people all over this country. I think we can put it to | :05:07. | :05:14. | |
her that what she's doing is wrong and, in the past ten months, we have | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
defeated the government 22 times in Parliament when we work together we | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
win, and when we work together with to defeat Tories. And opening up the | :05:24. | :05:37. | |
debate, Owen Smith. The problem is we are not defeating the Tories. We | :05:38. | :05:45. | |
have had a few victories. But we are behind. We are 14 percentage points | :05:46. | :05:54. | |
by the Tories under Theresa May, 2 million Labour voters would prefer | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
her to Jeremy Corbyn is Prime Minister this country! That has got | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
to be a wake-up call for us all. You cannot be satisfied with that. I do | :06:03. | :06:11. | |
not think that is sufficient. I want us to be looked at by the country as | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
a credible respected opposition and the Labour government in waiting. I | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
know you are radical, I am radical, but I want is to be radical in | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
government not in protesting against the Tories. In the ten months since | :06:25. | :06:36. | |
the last leadership election, we have defeated the Tories many times | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
and you my work together to ensure that happened. We won all four | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
by-elections, we won four Mayall contests, we picked up a lot of | :06:49. | :06:56. | |
support over the general election of 2015. As an opposition, I think we | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
have done very well. We were ahead in May, then came the wave of | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
resignation, then came the threat to unity in the party, and that is what | :07:09. | :07:17. | |
has the doors behind in the polls. I honestly believe that come the end | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
of this contest, you and I will work together in Parliament in order to | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
put forward a decent anti-austerity strategy, even stronger than we have | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
labelled the amount so far because the party I hope will unite around | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
an economic strategy which is about investment to protect and jobs, | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
which is about showing what the Tories are about, and that way, we | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
can use this massive membership will got to defeat the Tories and win a | :07:46. | :07:59. | |
general election. We agree we need a united Labour Party. Disunited | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
parties lose elections. But we have never looked more disunited than we | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
have looked under your leadership! Part of the reason we are so | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
disunited is we are losing, we lost in the local government elections. | :08:16. | :08:24. | |
The Tories won 300 seats. Ed Miliband at this point in the cycle | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
was nine percentage points ahead. We are 14 points behind. Ukip here in | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
Wales 17 seats. It was a disgrace that we have got Ukip in our | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
National Assembly in Wales when you watch, a watch, we are failed in | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
Scotland, behind the Tories. This is not success, Jeremy. Our current | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
trajectory, we will be down 22% at the next election in 2020 under your | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
leadership. No you cannot want that because you want the Labour | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
government. You want to put into practice our principles. You want to | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
actually deliver something for this country. That means winning. It does | :09:08. | :09:16. | |
not mean trading. It means winning. That is what we have got to do. You | :09:17. | :09:28. | |
and I were at the same Shadow Cabinet table when we agreed on the | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
strategy. We agreed on where we would take it to the Tories and we | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
have a significant number of victories. And we did defeat the | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
Tories in the May elections. We were ahead of them at the end of it. And | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
the party 's growing massively in membership. What I do not understand | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
is how you can complain about disunity in the party when you | :09:53. | :10:02. | |
another is the ones who resigned. At the very point... I'm not having | :10:03. | :10:11. | |
that, Jeremy. You knew I was not part of any clue in the Labour | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
Party. I did not resign from the Shadow Cabinet on that Sunday. We | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
want to hear from the candidates, please. You know I came to see you | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
to say, not can I resign? But how do we get out of this problem? You knew | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
we had a no-confidence vote on new knew many of my colleagues, who did | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
not ring me and asked me to resign, had resigned on that Sunday. I went | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
to Jeremy and said clearly, had we get out of this? I never served in | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
your Shadow Cabinet with loyalty and have helped to win those victorious, | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
but you have got to do something to save the Labour Party because at the | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
moment, we face the prospect of a historic split in the Labour Party. | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
You could not answer that question. You did not have an answer as to how | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
we would forge better relations and the party. He simply said, let's | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
have an election. John McDonnell was very clearly happy to split this | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
party. He said as much. I'm not standing by to see the Labour Party | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
split while I have got... I'm not doing it. John McDonnell has been an | :11:25. | :11:34. | |
MP since 1997. He won a seat of the Tories and has made it into a strong | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
labour and seat. You concluded our discussion by offering me unopposed | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
election to a position that is not exist as President of the party and | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
invited me to step aside. I pointed out, yes, there were problems in the | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party and I pointed to a Shadow Cabinet the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
restart long way in the party, Wade Burley on the politics I had adopted | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
beforehand. Surely, the best thing is for us to recognise what is | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
happening in this country and work together to defeat the Tory party, | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
not indulge. I will bring it to a close there. I am sure we will | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
revisit those topics with the next question. This comes from John Barth | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
in London. You will have 30 seconds to summarise answer to this. Jeremy | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
Corbyn, you will answer first. Do you think that in order to be an | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
effective leader of the Labour Party, the leader needs to have the | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
support of the majority of the Labour Members of Parliament? It | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
would be a good thing of Labour MPs got behind their leader and worked | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
with them rather than vote against them all the time. I understand | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
political differences and dissent. I practice that myself. As everybody | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
is very well aware. But personal abuse is not acceptable, endlessly | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
briefing against people is not acceptable and effective leadership | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
must have the support of party members and affiliates and I think | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
Members of Parliament should recognise that the structure of our | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
party has changed and I had last year a very strong democratic | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
mandate to try and change things and is and I believe we have changed | :13:29. | :13:39. | |
politics in this party. Owen Smith, the same again to you. The leader of | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
the Labour Party has a historic duty to hold together a coalition in the | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
coalition with different views. It coalition with different views. It | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
is the principal job of the leader to forge a powerful alliance in the | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
party and country and at Westminster. It has always been the | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
case. It was the case in the 1940s and 60s and today. And Jeremy I am | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
afraid has not been able to hold us together in Westminster. We are a | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
fractured splinter party and the only people who would benefit from | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
that of the Tories. The only people who would benefit from that is the | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
radical right in this country. It is the duty of all of us not to heal | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
these rifts and unite the party. How do you propose to be an effective | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
opposition if you don't have the majority 's board of the | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party? The majority of Labour MPs want is to be | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
an effective opposition. A small number are filling up the airwaves | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
with various their full announcements that they constantly | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
make. I want us to put the party together that does take against the | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
Tories. If re-elected, I will appoint a broad Shadow Cabinet as I | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
have before and encourage every Labour MP to work with the shadow | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
team on taking part. But when Labour MPs decide collectively or a small | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
number of them decide collectively not to do something and refused to | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
turn up to a debate on the economy because it was opened by John | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
McDonnell, that is silly and childish. Their duty is to be out | :15:27. | :15:35. | |
there, putting it to the Tories. I agree with Jeremy that some of my | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
colleagues have never been reconciled. Some people have not | :15:40. | :15:49. | |
behaved well. But Jeremy, 172 Labour MPs voted no in new leadership. They | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
are not red Tories, these are people who want to see the Tories back in | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
power, they are not Blairites, they are just Labour MPs. And this sort | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
of abuse, but just because they are not confident in you as a leader | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
they are anti-labour or red Tories, it cannot be allowed to continue. We | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
cannot have this ugly dialogue in the Labour Party. We are fighting | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
like ferrets in a sack. And the Tories will benefit if we're not | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
united. You have got to do more, Jeremy. I do not think you can. I am | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
the last one to do an ugly dialogue with anybody, quite honestly. I read | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
some memoirs of Harold Wilson at the time I was elected to this position, | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
and he used to, every Wednesday afternoon, open his office and any | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
Labour MP could go and talk to him. I have done the same. I have learnt | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
a lot from those conversations. And I hope a blunt things as well. That | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
surely is the right we're doing things. But we have got to recognise | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
that the Parliamentary party is very important of the Labour Party and | :17:08. | :17:17. | |
movement but it is not the entirety of it. We have to represent what our | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
members want, what our affiliates want and the communities that our | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
members and affiliates want. Therefore, I was very pleased when | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
we managed to turn it around from abstaining on the Welfare Reform | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
Bill year ago to absolutely opposing it and eventually working together | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
and defeating them on tax credits. Who led back campaign? I did. I was | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
the shadow Secretary of State for DWP. I was the one who took the | :17:47. | :17:58. | |
fight to Iain Duncan Smith. And I was desperate to fight the Labour | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
victory but at the moment, we are 14 points behind the Tories. We do not | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
look like ousting them from power and that is because we are not | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
convincing the country that they have got to put back their trust in | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
us, that they can look at those under your leadership and see a | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
credible and radical government in waiting. And the reason for that is | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
we have not put in place a programme. We have lots of slogans | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
like anti-austerity but what are we for? I am for pro-prosperity, a | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
British new deal, winning in order to put on the table proper worker's | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
rights. We have got to get into power to do that. We are all there | :18:45. | :18:56. | |
for winning. You made a lot of statements over the last few days | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
and I'm pleased you have, all of them have already been made by the | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
Shadow Cabinet during the past year. If we can come together on an | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
economic strategy which is about investment and public investment and | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
a national investment bank, that is good because that is really what | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
this country needs. The Tories will take us down to a bargain basement | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
island of the continent of Europe with low wages, high profits, | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
grotesque levels of inequality and a growing service economy at the | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
expense of our manufacturing economy. You and I don't want that. | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
We want something different which requires us to work together to get | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
that investment and get a government that is prepared to intervene in the | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
economy and provide everyone with decent standards of living that they | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
not just one but need and deserve and that we do not go into a cycle | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
of intergenerational poverty which is what has happened with 30 years | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
of neoliberal economics or across Europe. You and I agree on much of | :20:00. | :20:13. | |
the analysis of what has gone wrong in our economy. We shared that view | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
that we have got long-term structural crisis. You say we put in | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
place these policies. It is just not true. I have sat in the Shadow | :20:24. | :20:37. | |
Cabinet with you. I do not think I have ever heard you say... I said, | :20:38. | :20:46. | |
let's inset 4% a year in the NHS. I said I would introduce a wealth tax. | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
I said we should cut pension the wealthiest in this country, we | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
should increase corporation tax, reversed the inheritance tax, I have | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
said how we should raise an extra ?20 billion in new taxes the | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
wealthiest people and the corporations in this country and I | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
have said precisely where I would spend that. If we put in place that | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
programme, if you had been articulating those concrete | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
proposals instead of sloganising about anti-austerity, I think we | :21:18. | :21:27. | |
would do better. I really do. We will allowed to go to a close. One | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
of the problems in the last general elections... Can I be very quick? | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
One of the last problems was that we were in effect offering austerity | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
light. We were offering the continuation of wage freezes and I | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
had to change. It has changed. That is why politics is changing in this | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
country and now you find an economic consensus saying, austerity is | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
wrong. That did not happen until John McDonnell was appointed Shadow | :22:02. | :22:13. | |
Chancellor. In the spirit of things, we should get out a quick remark. I | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
agree with Jeremy that he used to be thanked for having helped the Labour | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
Party rediscover its radicalism but we need to be more than radical, we | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
need to be credible. We have got to look like people with the policies | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
and ideas that the country can trust in. While many in the Labour Party | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
might trust you at the moment, the country is not trusting you, and | :22:40. | :22:49. | |
therein lies our problem. I'm afraid we will have to move on to the next | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
topic to make sure we are as fair as possible those questions. Elizabeth | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
will open on this one. What would Labour's Brexit plan B? It is from | :23:01. | :23:09. | |
Gareth Pegg in Leeds. I do not want to Brexit plan under Labour. I think | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
it was a mistake for our country to exit the European Union, it was a | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
monumental mistake, and all of us in the Labour Party should feel a | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
degree of responsibility and shamed by having stopped the Brexit | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
strategy. I do not blame Jeremy the best. 67% of Labour voters voted to | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
stay in but we could have worked a lot harder to win that Brexit vote, | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
and I think you were wrong, Jeremy, to say on the day after the vote | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
that we will trigger article 50 and leave the European Union. We would | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
fight to stay in the European Union. We would say, let's negotiate in the | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
second referendum. The question was, what is Labour's | :23:57. | :24:13. | |
Brexit plan? The EU was far from perfect, but we had to protect | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
workers' rights and extend those rights and signed the posting of the | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
workers directive. I made more media appearances than the rest of the | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
Shadow Cabinet put together during the EU referendum campaign and Owain | :24:31. | :24:39. | |
and I spoke together at a rally in Cardiff on this subject. Straight | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
out of a result, I had a meeting with the European Socialist parties | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
that we would work together with them on environmental issues, market | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
issues and environmental concerns we share. That is the strategy. If the | :24:56. | :25:07. | |
opposition going for a second referendum? We should want to stay | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
in the European Union and we should demand a seat at the table alongside | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
the Tories, arguing the best possible negotiation. The country | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
was lied to by Brexit. We would told we would get this extra ?350 | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
million. It was all I and we know that and we do not know what the | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
outturn of this would be so I say let's negotiate hard, let's stand up | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
or we still believe in. We believe in collaboration and cooperation | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
across our country and between countries and I think it would be | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
difficult for Jeremy to take out bike to the Tories because the 30 | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
years, you did not believe in the European Union, and we all know it. | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
And you wonder about that conversion at the last minute and workers' | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
rights. But we were part of a much bigger European project. We were | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
leaders in Europe and now we are on the sidelines. We're not that. We | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
are an outward looking country and we should look for harder and under | :26:13. | :26:22. | |
me, we will fight much harder. I opened my speech by saying, we are | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
here because we are the Labour Party and we're not retreating to a small | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
island mentality of running away. We want to work with you for the | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
future. Yes, I have had many criticisms of the European Union, | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
its free-market philosophy, the way in which the Maastricht Treaty was | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
pushed through and the deregulation agenda that Margaret Thatcher and | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
others have pushed through. But I have also worked hard with Socialist | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
parties and unions or across Europe on workers' rights, environmental | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
protection, consumer protection. All of those | :27:01. | :27:11. | |
things that are very important across the continent. We have an | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
opportunity here to put as much pressure as possible on the | :27:16. | :27:16. | |
government, demand be part of negotiations, but above all, protect | :27:17. | :27:18. | |
the environmental issues are so important and maintain access to | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
European markets the industries all over Britain because if we lose that | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
access to those markets, it is very unclear how quickly or where they | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
will be replaced by you know that as well as I do. I do know that, | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
Jeremy. I thought it was a mistake for us to come off the back of the | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
Brexit vote and say let's sugar Article 50. I do not understand why | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
you wanted to do that. We should still be fighting for what we | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
believe in, which is remaining part of the European Union. It is more | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
than workers' rights and environmental protection. It is a | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
disaster we have left because now we are left with very little | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
protection, very little mitigation against our right wing rotten Tory | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
government that will use this as an excuse to strip away the rights that | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
we believe in and Europe is our safeguard for those rights. We | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
should have been in the trenches, fighting for it, every day. I do not | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
think we fought hard enough and it breaks my heart. | :28:22. | :28:32. | |
Can we just respond to the point that Owen Smith made about tangoing | :28:33. | :28:45. | |
-- triggering article 50. I said it was inevitable it should be | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
triggered. Maybe I should choose my words more carefully. It is going to | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
be triggered at some point. It is going to be triggered at some point | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
and will be. I hope not. I don't know when it will be triggered. We | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
have to recognise a referendum was cold, it did take place and a | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
majority, sadly not my wish, a majority voted to leave. By half | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
week -- I think we have to do all we can on the areas we agreed to try to | :29:22. | :29:29. | |
ensure we continue having access for industry to the market. | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
Environmental and consumer regulations. All those things. I | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
have arranged for a meeting which I hope you will attend with the | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
Norwegian Labour Party in September to discuss how they do things and | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
discuss what their relationship is with the European Union. I would be | :29:46. | :29:55. | |
delighted... I do think this is a fundamental issue of leadership. It | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
is the most disastrous situation. Worse than ours to lose an election, | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
for us to be leaving the European Union and become an isolated island. | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
I say to you, if you win this contest and you remain leader of our | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
party, will you agree with me that it should be our policy to push hard | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
in these Brexit negotiations and put it to the country again in a second | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
referendum or at the general election? It will likely be at a | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
general election. We campaigned as a party and got more than two thirds | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
of our supporters to vote to remain, but it wasn't evenly spread across | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
the country, as you well know. My constituency voted 72% to remain. | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
Constituencies in the valleys and in other places voted quite strongly to | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
leave. We have to win those people back. The reason they did that was | :30:59. | :31:08. | |
because there has been underinvestment in those | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
communities. We agree about that. We need a re-industrialisation | :31:12. | :31:12. | |
programme. Would need to deal with wages, workers' rights, we need to | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
invest in those communities. But it would be so much easier to do that | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
inside Europe. Let's be clear. The Bank of England met today and | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
reduced interest rates to their lowest level for 300 years. The | :31:28. | :31:36. | |
announced another ?60 billion of investment in our bankers, in order | :31:37. | :31:38. | |
to refloat the economy. They said inflation is going to go up, house | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
prices are going to go up, wages are going to fall, and because of our | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
leaving the European Union. It is an unmitigated disaster. Get real. The | :31:51. | :31:59. | |
result was really. We have to make the best of it. We have to fight to | :32:00. | :32:09. | |
stay in. There was a question from Gerald. Could Labour Party have done | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
more during the campaign? Could the Labour Party have provided better | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
leadership in this? We spent a lot of money on it, we did a lot of | :32:21. | :32:29. | |
campaigning. I travelled the whole country doing a large number of | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
rallies and meetings. I think one of the problems was that until the last | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
few days of the campaign, the media were only interested in the split in | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
the Tory party and it was very hard for us to get any coverage of what | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
was really going on. Obviously there are lessons to be learned from every | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
campaign you undertake. I did not blame the media. I said it was one | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
factor. Not the only factor. We worked hard as a party. We got the | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
vast majority of our supporters to vote for remain. The Tory party did | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
the opposite and less than a third of their supporters actually voted | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
to remain. The result is what the result is. We now have to work with | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
it to try to protect jobs, industry, the environment and the social | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
issues that are so important. Things where we have benefited in the | :33:25. | :33:32. | |
European Union. Owen and I spoke together at a remain rally in | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
Cardiff City Hall not that long ago. We did. You spoke very well, but you | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
spoke in limited terms about our European union. You spoke about | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
workers' rights and we agree that. Environmental protection and we | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
agree on that. And I don't think you spoke with a passion that so many | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
others feel in the Labour Party about the reasons for being in. | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
Internationalism, peace, prosperity. I'm not happy with socialism in one | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
country. I wanted for all the peoples in Europe. We can be a | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
civilising force for good in the European Union. But now we are out | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
of it and that, for me, is an absolute travesty. Just to clarify, | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
should the terms of a Brexit be put to the people? Owen Smith? Should be | :34:26. | :34:34. | |
put to the people in a referendum? Definitely. Once we know what the | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
deal looks like. Jeremy Corbyn, a brief answer? I think it will come | :34:40. | :34:47. | |
to us in a general election. 2020 or before that. I want to work as | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
closely as possible with Europe, with protecting those issues, but | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
above all the economic integration between Europe and Britain is | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
essential, otherwise a very large number of jobs, particularly in the | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
manufacturing industry, will be lost. Will you be pushing for it? We | :35:05. | :35:19. | |
will move onto next question. This is a question from John Berry in | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
Cornwall. What is your industrial policy which will make the UK | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
competitive in the global economy of the 21st-century? Primarily, it is | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
about investment in manufacturing and funding technology industries in | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
this country. And investment bank that will improve infrastructure. | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
Cornwall has the lowest wages in the whole country. Some of the greatest | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
needs for increased investment. The same with the north-east of England | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
and the north-west of England, and parts of Wales. This is about | :35:56. | :36:03. | |
training, it is about good quality apprenticeships, it is about not | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
penalising young people for wanting to go to university and become | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
qualified. It is investment in people, education and good quality | :36:14. | :36:24. | |
jobs. My strategy would be to write some of the wrongs that previous | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
governments, labour and Tory, have done to our economy. We have not | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
invested in. We have allowed regional inequalities. We have | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
allowed Britain to become the industrialised. Manufacturing used | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
to be the mainstay of our economy. Germany and the Netherlands and | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
other countries have a much more powerful manufacturing sector. We | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
need a proper industrial strategy backed up with a big infrastructure | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
programme that kick-started a British new Deal. Crucially, we need | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
to start making things again. Really industrialising parts of the world | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
that I come from and represent. That is the secret to getting Britain | :37:12. | :37:22. | |
working again. Renationalisation is a common theme in your policies. How | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
will this make us more competitive in the global market? We will be | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
playing to our strengths, which are skills and innovation. Far too many | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
new products that are developed at research places universities in | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
Britain end up not being developed here and they go abroad because | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
nobody is prepared to put capital into it. Or companies come in, buy | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
up a small company that has done some really interesting new | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
developments, and say to them, let's take it somewhere else. We need a | :37:52. | :38:09. | |
different strategy in doing this. We also need to promote solutions in | :38:10. | :38:11. | |
Britain that encourage manufacturing. For example, I was at | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
a place in Widnes that makes the towers for wind turbines. Their | :38:15. | :38:16. | |
industry has totally plummeted in the past couple of years because the | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
government cut down the feed in tariffs to an unsustainable level, | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
therefore nobody wants to buy them here. By maintaining those feed in | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
tariffs for another five years, that would have sustained and developed | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
that industry and the solar power industry. There are a whole number | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
of areas where government intervention can help. Some are | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
brilliant and very good. Some are just called for a very low pay and | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
gross exploitation of people who think they are on an apprenticeship. | :38:46. | :38:56. | |
Owen Smith? The Tories have presided over the slowest recovery from a | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
recession in 100 years. We have got the biggest downturn in wages. The | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
largest increase in job insecurity. The biggest growth in inequalities | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
in this country, regional inequalities and individuals. The | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
Tory government are announcing another ?60 billion for the banks. | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
Due to a recession caused not by Labour spending on schools and | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
hospitals, but by Tory greed and bankers greed. That is the reality. | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
I am still angry, as I know Jeremy is, that none of those bankers have | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
gone to jail. At the best thing we can do is put in place a framework | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
for free-floating not the bankers, but the people, investing in Britain | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
once more. Not compounding the problem with more austerity, but we | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
have to be concrete about it. It is not just enough to say | :39:53. | :40:14. | |
we are going to be anti-austerity. We have to say, how are we going to | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
raise the money to invest in day-to-day services and in our | :40:19. | :40:20. | |
industry? By first of all borrowing ?200 billion of British new Deal, we | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
haven't had that before from Labour in the last nine months. And by | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
raising taxes. Not getting back to the bonus culture that sees Philip | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
Green and others on their yacht whilst nurses and care worker Caesar | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
pay frozen. Good old-fashioned socialist policies. Ones that people | :40:39. | :40:52. | |
can believe in. One of the mistakes we have made before was then the | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
banking crisis came, we build up with ?300 billion of quantitative | :41:00. | :41:00. | |
easing. We didn't invest in the manufacturing | :41:01. | :41:16. | |
industry. Some were pulling buy to let mortgages from the marketplace. | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
As some of them have turned around a bit, like Lloyds, ?2.5 billion | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
profit, the result is they dismiss a large number of their staff and | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
close 200 more branches. We have a public stake in these banks. We | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
should exercise and use these public states. I agree. I say about all of | :41:37. | :41:51. | |
these things, we agree about so much of this stuff, we are both men... So | :41:52. | :42:01. | |
why did you resign? I don't think we can win, Jeremy. Without being able | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
to win, without being able to put our principles into action, I don't | :42:06. | :42:13. | |
think we can do anything other than protest about it. We have to win in | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
order to get this stuff done. Otherwise it is just hot air, | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
Jeremy. Thank you. The next question comes from Georgina Alan. The | :42:26. | :42:34. | |
British public appears to be convinced the Labour Party is a | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
financially irresponsible party. How would you challenge this white held | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
view? Added spell at precisely where all the money that I want to spend | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
on improving public services, we were to come from. That is why we | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
failed to win back trust in the last nine months. We have not been clear. | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
We have said we are anti-austerity, but we have not said specifically | :42:59. | :43:10. | |
enough what we are in favour of or Hollywood funded. I would be clear. | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
?200 million to invest in public services, in schools, in health | :43:14. | :43:15. | |
care, in hospitals. New taxis on the wealthiest. Get rid of the big cut | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
in corporation tax. Put it back up to 20% at least. Make sure we are | :43:21. | :43:28. | |
not offering the wealthiest more tax breaks. Reform our pension system. | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
It is rigged against ordinary workers. Be credible... Thank you, | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
Owen Smith. Jeremy Corbyn, what is your opening response to this? How | :43:38. | :43:46. | |
do you convince people the Labour Party is financially responsible? By | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
spending money sensibly and wisely, not wasting it as this government is | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
doing. If you charge people unreasonably high rents and use the | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
profits to subsidise landlords, that is wasting money. If people need to | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
access working tax credits to keep their head above water, that is not | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
a sensible use of money. A large housing programme that will build 1 | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
million new homes over five years, council housing, lifetime tenancy, | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
proper investment. Good sense, good business and creates good jobs, not | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
just for building workers but all down the supply chain. That is | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
financial sense. Fiscal responsibility was at the heart of | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
Ed Miliband's manifesto. You have had ten months at the helm. Why are | :44:43. | :44:50. | |
people still convinced that Labour is a financially irresponsible | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
party? We need to get the message out there about what is financially | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
irresponsible in this government, in its waste of money, on the way it | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
does a lot of things, its lack of investment in public need and the | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
disgraceful way it has treated local government or across England and the | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
way it has treated the Welsh and Scottish Government in the funding | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
they get. That is actually irresponsible because what you end | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
up doing is making the poorest and most vulnerable pay the highest | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
price. We have to get the message out there, this government is about | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
hitting the poorest in our society. How are you going to do that? | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
Successive Labour leaders have tried, but why isn't the message | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
getting out there? We will do our best to get that message out there | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
in our campaign and through the media. We will do our best to put it | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
out there, that inequality is a waste. Tax write-offs and tax havens | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
are irresponsible and fundamentally wrong. I would've thought the Panama | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
papers were so obvious about everything that is wrong in modern | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
Britain and the way the wealthy think they can evade tax. Successive | :46:03. | :46:10. | |
Labour leaders have tried to evade this, how will you change this? By | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
showing the country the balance sheet. Quite simply. By saying we | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
can get ?6 billion from reversing the corporation tax. We can get an | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
extra 1 billion by getting rid of the inheritance tax, allowing | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
millionaires to pass on their homes to their children free of charge. We | :46:30. | :46:38. | |
can get ?3 billion by introducing a surcharge on the dividends and | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
shares held by only the wealthiest 1%. Those people already earning | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
?150,000 a year, practical policies. Then saying to the public, what | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
would we spend this money on? We would spend it on the NHS. 4% a year | :46:53. | :47:02. | |
to get us back up to the levels... Practical policies. If we were | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
explicit, concrete and credible, we would be listened to. At present, 2 | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
million labour voters are telling us they would rather have a Tory Prime | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
Minister than a Labour government, and that has got to be a wake-up | :47:17. | :47:30. | |
call to everybody in this party. In a time of great national debt, how | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
is campaigning on a policy of being anti-austerity going to reinforce an | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
idea that Labour is financially responsible? They have doubled the | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
debt under the Tories. The borrowed 40 billion extra this year than you | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
are projected to do six months ago. It has failed. Fundamentally. The | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
NHS is going bust right across this country. Our councils are having to | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
strip millions of pounds out of their budgets. Austerity has | :48:03. | :48:15. | |
fundamentally failed Britain. It is time for a Labour government to say, | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
let's start investing in this country. It is not a question of | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
whether we can afford to do this, it is a question of whether we can | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
afford not to do it. They keep saying to me, the Tories across the | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
chamber, you will leave debts for our children. My answer is I am not | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
prepared to leave crumbling schools and talk in hospitals and in | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
infrastructure and industry in this country that is unfit to serve my | :48:33. | :48:40. | |
children. So I will invest as leader of this party. I will make sure a | :48:41. | :48:48. | |
Labour government will invest. Of course it is about investment in | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
manufacturing industry, in social infrastructure, in education. It's | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
not setting false targets to pay off the debt or move into surplus. | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
George Osborne find that out the hard way. His five-year plan has one | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
consistent theme to it, it is always five years away. The new Chancellor | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
is not that much different Matt. This morning, the Bank of England | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
put 60 billion more into the economy in order to try to stave off | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
recession. You cannot cut your way to prosperity, you invest your way | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
to prosperity. We have the lowest level of investment of any OTC | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
country. And it's going down words. If we don't invest, we don't get the | :49:33. | :49:40. | |
jobs or infrastructure and we decline as a society. You can do | :49:41. | :49:47. | |
everything as a service economy alone. I have to see this. We have | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
made mistakes ourselves. In the last general election, we were not an | :49:51. | :49:52. | |
anti-austerity party. We were proposing to continue with the | :49:53. | :49:54. | |
public sector wage freeze and continue with some level of cuts in | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
public services. We have changed and developed our policies and a much | :49:59. | :50:07. | |
better way. I want us to go further down the road of investment and | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
create jobs and investment for all. Not cuts and allow these grotesque | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
levels of inequality in our society to continue. I fundamentally agree | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
with Jeremy about that. But Jeremy, in order to do it, we have to win in | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
Cardiff North, we have to win in Nuneaton, we have to win in Milton | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
Keynes, we have to win in Kingswood, we have to win 100 seats from the | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
Tories. We have to get Tories and Greens and liberals to vote Labour. | :50:39. | :50:45. | |
At the moment, they are not going to do that. All of the evidence shows | :50:46. | :50:53. | |
us we are likely to be at 22%. I am not satisfied or complacent. Winning | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
in Bristol, London and other parts of the country, it is great, but we | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
were 18 seats down in the local elections. Ukip in the assembly. | :51:06. | :51:14. | |
Hang the Tories in Scotland. This is not progress. We're going backwards, | :51:15. | :51:25. | |
my friend, back words. Thank you. We have been having some audience | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
participation. This is the next topic. What are your views on the | :51:30. | :51:37. | |
renewal of Trident? I voted against the renewal of Trident. | :51:38. | :51:51. | |
In fairness to yourself, we will start again for the timing. Please | :51:52. | :52:02. | |
keep your applause. Let's start again. I voted against the renewal | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
of Trident because I want to live in a nuclear free world. Parliament was | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
invited to vote for a blank cheque to the government for a renewal of | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
Trident with no financial costing behind it. The points I made were | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
simply this. It was a Labour government that developed the | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
nuclear treaty in the 1960s. Article six requires the declared nuclear | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
weapons states, of which Britain is one, to take steps towards nuclear | :52:31. | :52:39. | |
disarmament. Renewal of Trident is going in the opposite direction. I | :52:40. | :52:41. | |
want to be in a Labour government that fulfils or obligations and does | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
everything it can to encourage other areas of the world to become nuclear | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
free zones, which has worked and been very effective. And carry out | :52:52. | :52:58. | |
our obligations under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. I | :52:59. | :53:09. | |
appreciate you keeping applause until the end. Owen Smith, where do | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
you stand? My great political hero is Aneurin Bevan. I agree with him. | :53:15. | :53:23. | |
I'm in favour of a world without nuclear weapons. I'm in favour of a | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
Labour Party of being in the vanguard of looking for multilateral | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
nuclear disarmament. All weapons should be got rid of. If I sincerely | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
believe that I would assist multilateral disarmament, everybody | :53:40. | :53:41. | |
getting rid of their nuclear weapons, by Di vesting ourselves of | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
ours first, I would do it tomorrow. It is a start! But I believe the | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
world has become a more volatile place. Russia is more dangerous | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
power than it used to be. My view on this is clear. We must retain a | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
nuclear deterrent in order to enable the multilateral disarmament of the | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
entire world's Arsenal. That is the unfortunate terrible truth. Jeremy | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
and I disagree about that. This is an emotive topic. It would be good | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
to have a good discussion on it. Does it make us vulnerable if we | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
don't have a nuclear deterrent? 197 countries in the world do not have | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
nuclear weapons. There are five declared nuclear weapon states. | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
Additionally, nuclear weapons are held by India, Pakistan, Israel and | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
North Korea. The six party talks hopefully will help to bring about | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
some kind of security on the Korean peninsula and pressure from China | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
would help to do that. Promotion of a Middle East weapons of mass | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
destruction zone would help to bring Israel and Iran eventually, we are a | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
long way off, but bring them to the principle of that. I simply say | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
this. If we spend all this money on replacing the Trident nuclear | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
missile system, what is the message we are giving to the rest of the | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
world? Would it not be better if we redoubled our efforts of the nuclear | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
Non-Proliferation Treaty, encourage other nations to go in the same | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
direction, but also asked ourselves the question, under what | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
circumstances would you use it? Secondly, are we aware that it is | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
the ultimate weapon of mass destruction that indiscriminately | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
kills very large numbers of civilians? And the security issues | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
that face this planet at the present time are any of those security | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
issues actually going to be solved by the use of nuclear weapons? Or | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
are they going to be solved by political action, by political | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
dialogue, by promotion of human rights, justice and democracy in | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
every single part of the world and of a foreign policy that puts that | :55:56. | :56:06. | |
is the headline figure, rather than... | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
We are all aware of the appalling consequences of any country in the | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
world using nuclear weapons. That is why we should all want to get rid of | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
all nuclear weapons. The only point where Jeremy Hunt I disagree is how | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
we best achieve that. And we do disagree about this. Jeremy's view | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
is one I held 25 years ago, which as we get rid of ours first as a | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
gesture and we encourage the rest of the world to do likewise. But I say | :56:39. | :56:46. | |
to you, Jeremy, I think that is unfortunately naive. I don't believe | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
that we will encourage the rest of the world to do it. I do believe | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
that we have appallingly allowed successive governments, multilateral | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
disarmament to fall away from where it ought to be, at the forefront of | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
international diplomacy and debate. We want to put it back on the table, | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
but I think we are better able to do that if we come to that table with a | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
bargaining chip. If we throw that bargaining chip away, we lose out | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
the ability to ask other countries to get rid of their own weapons. | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
What do you say to those countries who don't have nuclear weapons and | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
don't want them, to countries like South Africa, Argentina and Brazil | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
that have willingly given up their nuclear weapons in order to live in | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
a safer world? They have the moral authority to do it. But surely you | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
and I can both agree that security issues that face the world are not | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
going to be solved by the detonation of a nuclear bomb which would kill | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
millions, which would drive the whole world into recession and | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
create an environmental disaster, not just in the area where the bomb | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
went off? Listen, I have met people who were victims of nuclear testing | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
on a Pacific island. As have I. Those people all see a nuclear | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
weapon is totally indiscriminate. These were innocent fishermen living | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
on islands in the Pacific who are now suffering terminal cancers as a | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
result of those tests all those years ago. None of us are going to | :58:23. | :58:31. | |
argue how awful these things are. South Africa is a great example. | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
They got rid of their weapons unilaterally. The rest of the world | :58:36. | :58:42. | |
did not disarm. And we are not South Africa. We are one of the permanent | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
five members of the Security Council, one of the great powers in | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
the world in security terms and for us to powerfully go into the debate | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
with other countries and push for multilateral nonproliferation and | :58:58. | :59:00. | |
disarmament, I think we need to be able to say to those countries, | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
look, we are progressively disarming ourselves, but we need to have a | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
powerful argument to make. We have got ours and we will get rid of them | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
in exchange for there is. It is a basic fact of bartering or | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
negotiating. You used to be a trade union negotiator. You should | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
understand you after power going a negotiation. I understand that. I | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
think that is what we should be doing in order to get rid of the | :59:29. | :59:30. | |
entire world's Arsenal. When I have attended nuclear | :59:31. | :59:45. | |
Non-Proliferation Treaty conferences and humanitarian against war | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
conferences, the countries that come there are from all over the world | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
and they are interested in living in a nuclear free world. Yes, they | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
listen to some extent what we are saying and what Russia and the USA | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
and China and France are saying, but they list of file -- listen far more | :00:02. | :00:09. | |
intently to South Africa about how they can practically bring about | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
cut-off, how you can bring about an end to the testing at any level of | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
nuclear weapons and how you can seriously bring about a nuclear free | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
world. They say why if your country is so keen on bringing about a | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
nuclear free country about to spend a very large sum of money, let's say | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
a hundred billionths, on a replacement of Trident, they say why | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
argue doing it when you have so much to give to the world of your human | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
rights tradition and your democratic traditions. -- let's say ?100 | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
billion. Up Lawes. -- up Lawes. I do not agree with you, I do not | :00:47. | :01:08. | |
think that Russia and America lives more carefully to South Africa in | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
respect to South Africa than they do to us, I do not think that is right. | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
I think this is an IDS district position and one we should aspire | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
to, but I do not think it is showing leadership for us. -- this is a | :01:23. | :01:36. | |
sensible position. Onto the issue of immigration and this comes from | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
Charlie Mason in Pembrokeshire. I am sure both of you condemn xenophobia | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
and racism as much as you promote immigration, but do you recognise | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
that areas in the UK feel an easy about immigration and if so what | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
would you do to reduce this unease? I will start that with Owen Smith. | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
The first thing I won't do is do watch Theresa May did, Trail racist | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
ad vans around the country in order to whip up hatred and intolerance | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
and division and I will not do what Nigel Farage did which is stand in | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
front of those racist posters. It has been heartbreaking in recent | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
months, especially during the Brexit campaign to see racism and | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
intolerance emerged in Britain, but we have too acknowledged that there | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
are pressures that immigration brings and we have two deal with | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
them and we deal with them through investment. There are pressures on | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
doctors and hospitals and schools waiting lists, all of those things | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
or effect it. If we invest through a British new Deal, we would mitigate | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
many of those new pressures and people would be easier in this | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
country. Thank you, Owen Smith. APPLAUSE | :02:57. | :03:06. | |
Do you recognise the unease? I do and I do recognise the need for | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
funding in areas where there are problems, school places, health | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
facilities and housing through the Clemente should of a migrant impact | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
fund which this government has abolished and it was set up by the | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
last Labour government and refused to access the EU funds that could | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
deal with those issues and I think it is important we do that. Secondly | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
recognise we do live in a multicultural society and all of us | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
have benefited from the brilliance of people who have made their homes | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
here and made a contribution to our society and help to run our | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
universities and science industry and schools and NHS. Fund these | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
areas, but turn against any kind of racist trolling within our society. | :03:55. | :04:04. | |
APPLAUSE You are agreed in some kind of fund, | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
but what about controlling migration numbers. We have to have an honest | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
look at this issue and an honest conversation with the British | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
people. Many people in the referendum both were concerned about | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
immigration, we know that from the polling. For us in labour the first | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
thing we have to do is say our values are those of tolerance and | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
solidarity and we are an immigrant nation. My family come from England | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
and Spain, my wife's family come from India and Scotland. This part | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
of the world where we are standing here today is made up of immigrants. | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
We have to be proud about the mixed heritage of our country and | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
truthfully if we were not going through the worst recession we have | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
seen in generations, if we were not deemed a Tory government cutting | :05:02. | :05:03. | |
back through austerity and all of the service that all our communities | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
rely upon, if we were investing properly, then we would not see this | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
intolerance. That means crucially we have to be in power. I say it again, | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
all of this comes back to labour being in power and we are not in | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
power! APPLAUSE The question I asked was do we need | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
to control immigration numbers? We have seen the Tories play a losing | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
game of setting targets. I will not turn around and say let's have a | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
finite target for immigration because we know it does not work. | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
You missed those targets, many parts of our country require integration. | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
The nurses in the hospital, over the road is the Heath Hospital in | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
Cardiff, it is full of foreign nurses. We need to control the level | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
of it? In some areas of the country it does cause problems and our job | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
is to form a government in order to mitigate the problem is, it is not | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
our job to inflame pressures and divisions. Control or no control? I | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
have just said we should not be setting a finite number. We are | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
about to leave the EU and that will not solve the problems, we should be | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
in Europe fighting for everybody across Europe. APPLAUSE | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
Should we be controlling our borders? Non-European migration is | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
very strictly controlled, often very unfairly particularly in the case of | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
Family Reunion when arbitrary levels of income are demanded, that needs | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
to be looked at and change. In the case of European migration if we are | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
part of space even call -- if we are part of the single market then with | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
that comes free movement of labour. I want to demand the signing of the | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
postal workers directive to prevent the importation of a whole workforce | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
to undercut a workforce that is already here in this country and | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
destroy the wages and conditions in that particular industry and I have | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
raised this with colleagues all across Europe. The British | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
government said it would sign the posting of workers directive. | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
Bringing quality across Europe would have a big impact on that. We have | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
to recognise that without migrant workers we would not have the health | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
service we have got, the education service we have got many other | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
things. When Nigel Farage in the referendum campaign produced that | :07:51. | :07:52. | |
utterly disgusting poster which showed a group of desperate people, | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
in that desperate group of people there were doctors, engineers, | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
nurses, scientists, farmers, people fleeing from a war and he says they | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
are the threat. Surely we can have a hand of humanity rather than a hand | :08:09. | :08:17. | |
of abuse. APPLAUSE So to summarise, is that a yes or | :08:18. | :08:29. | |
no, is it a halfway house? There is control of non-European migration. | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
There is busy control of that. The European migration within a single | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
market there has to be a harmonising condition, there has to be | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
preventing of the undercutting wages, that will reduce the flow. | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
There are 2 million British people who live in other parts of Europe, | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
they worked there and contribute there and they want to stay there | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
just as much as the European nationalists who made their homes | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
here want to stay here I think they should. APPLAUSE | :08:56. | :09:04. | |
Owen Smith. I just want to say have you seen what Theresa May has done | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
with refugees in respect of this country. On the first day she took | :09:10. | :09:18. | |
office she scrapped the post of Minister for refugees. On her second | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
day in office she reintroduced child detentions of child refugees in this | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
country. That is what the Tories will do and it should be a sanitary | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
reminder to us that unless we are able to form a Labour government we | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
have to sit by and watch this happening. We have to sit back and | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
watch them fan the flames of hatred and division. That cannot be allowed | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
to continue. We have to get to the prospect of a Labour government as | :09:48. | :09:57. | |
soon as possible. APPLAUSE Do you want to summarise your | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
response and then we will move on? The issues of refugees is a huge | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
run, there are more displaced people than at any time in recorded history | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
at any time on this planet and the idea you consulted by building | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
barbed wire between Greece Macedonia and think the problem will go away | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
and then be concerned when you see people dying in the sea, children | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
dying in the sea, any more than the horror of the camps in Calais and | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
Dunkirk which I visited. So let's have a humanitarian and human rights | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
bonds which is about giving immediate help and response and | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
thank Italy and Greece for what they have done and redouble our efforts | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
to bring about a political settlement in Syria so those | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
refugees can actually return home. APPLAUSE | :10:46. | :10:54. | |
This question comes from Thomas Burke in Birmingham. Jeremy Corbyn I | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
will ask you to begin on this one. What will you do to combat | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and all those whose rhetoric | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
legitimises anti-Semitism? Anti-Semitism is totally wrong and | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
unacceptable in any form or place in society. It has no place whatsoever | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
in the Labour Party. APPLAUSE When I became leader there were | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
allegations made and a number of people have then and have then | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
suspended from party membership so investigations can take place into | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
what they are alleged to have done or alleged to have said. I appointed | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
the spokesperson of liberty to make an enquiry into this. She produced a | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
report and it was put to the national executive and there are a | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
number of rule changes that are put in there. She also said that in | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
addition to sanctions against anyone who commits any racist act they | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
should be an education and inclusion process within our party. | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
Anti-Semitism is simply totally wrong and not acceptable. APPLAUSE | :12:05. | :12:15. | |
Owen Smith. Anti-Semitism is one of the most pernicious forms of | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
prejudice for all sorts of reasons that we fully understand. It has | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
been absolutely appalling to see our party, the Labour Party, the Labour | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
Party! With anti-Semitism in our ranks. It has been absolutely | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
disgraceful. I am very clear about this. If I were the leader of the | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
Labour Party I would have zero tolerance for it. Zero. Anyone found | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
with anti-Semitism abuse would be out of our party and they would not | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
be coming back. No short-term measures, no short-term suspensions, | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
they would be out and never come back again. CHEERING | :12:59. | :13:09. | |
Do you want to respond to that? Every case must be investigated. | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
Yes. Every case must be investigated as indeed should any form of racism | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
whatsoever within our party or within our society. That is exactly | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
what we are doing and that is what the party position is and that is | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
exactly what I hope the rule book will reflect to ensure there is a | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
Jude process of incontrovertible investigation of every case and I | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
agree with Erin, where a case is proved against somebody, then of | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
course they do not have a place within the party. -- with Owen. I am | :13:43. | :13:53. | |
very clear about this. Of course all cases have to be investigated, but | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
we have been too slow. We have been too slow to look into this and we | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
have been too slow to acknowledge we have a problem in the movement. It | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
is in the Labour Party we have a problem with anti-Semitism and this | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
should make us all ashamed. Everybody in this room should be | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
ashamed that in the Labour Party we are talking about dealing with | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
anti-Semitism. I ask you this, Jeremy, how has this happened? How | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
has this happened over the last nine months? BOOING | :14:24. | :14:32. | |
Many people in the movement are worried about their communities, but | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
I do not think we have done enough to stamp it out, I don't think we | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
have been strong enough and collectively I do not think our | :14:41. | :14:42. | |
leadership has been strong and after. APPLAUSE | :14:43. | :14:52. | |
I have made my position on this absolutely clear, that is why I want | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
an enquiry done into it. Many of the cases we investigated actually | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
predate my leadership by quite a long way. APPLAUSE | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
I want action to be taken on it, I want our party to be a welcoming | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
place for everybody what ever their faith, their ethnic group, whatever | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
their community, that is surely what the strength of our party is about. | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
19 people have been suspended from membership and investigations are | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
ongoing, rule changes are coming forward to ensure there is a proper | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
independently monitored form of investigation that goes on within | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
the party. You and I at salute you agree that racism has no place | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
whatsoever in our society or in our party. -- absolutely agree. How | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
would you respond to the criticism that it is political point scoring | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
as opposed to anything out? I have been in the Labour Party for 30 | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
years, I knew remembering the last nine months a discussion about | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. BOOING | :16:04. | :16:16. | |
That is the truth! APPLAUSE I do not blame you Jeremy only. | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
Excuse me, can we have quiet please. This room is a indicator of this at | :16:23. | :16:32. | |
the moment, this room is not behaving in a comradely manner. | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
People feel intimidated and that there is an abusive dialogue between | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
different wings of the party, we have to heal the Labour Party, we | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
have to unite the Labour Party otherwise we will never win, we will | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
be split and we will lose. The Tories and those people who are | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
racist in this country will benefit. APPLAUSE | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
BOOING We will leave that there. This may | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
well be the final question of this evening. This comes from Helen Evans | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
in Oxford, what are your plans for ensuring the UK's third female Prime | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
Minister is labour and not conservative? Owen Smith. I'm | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
incredibly proud of the fact that the Labour Party has a far better | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
record on promoting women within our ranks than any other party. 40% of | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
our MPs are women right now, it is 20% in the Tory party. They may have | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
a first lady, but they always put women last and that is the truth. | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
Here in Wales, we are ahead of the curve. Here in Wales we have | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
committed to having 50% of our councillors as women, I want to go | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
further, I think 50% of our MPs should be women. APPLAUSE | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
50% of the Shadow Cabinet should be women, at least 50% and we should | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
have at least 50% of the top job in the Cabinet, the big offices of | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
state, they should be women as well. There are more than enough women in | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
the Labour Party to fill those roles to look like the country. Jeremy | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
Corbyn, what are your plans to ensure the third Prime Minister that | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
is a woman is a Labour Party Prime Minister? Promoting all women short | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
lists is to make sure we get the parity of representation in | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
parliament as well as at council level and also driving down the | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
gender pay gap and discrimination against women in our society as a | :18:46. | :18:47. | |
way APPLAUSE Of promoting women. I would also say | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
that when I was elected leader, the first time I was appointed to the | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
Shadow Cabinet -- I was appointing the Shadow Cabinet, 50% of those | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
were women and it will remain so. There have been concerns raised | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
about misogyny in the Labour Party, does it concern you? It does concern | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
me if there is an suddenly of any level in society and obviously in | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
our party. That is one of a number of issues we will address about the | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
conduct of the Labour Party, the organisation and its meetings and | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
the way in which we organise ourselves which sometimes makes it | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
very difficult for women to be as involved as they would want to be | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
and should be within the party, our campaign methods, presentational | :19:40. | :19:41. | |
methods and a large number of other things. We need to strengthen the | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
role of women in the party at every level and that I am determined to | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
do. APPLAUSE I agree with all of that, we are in | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
labour have been standard-bearers for feminism and women for a long | :19:57. | :20:05. | |
time and we stand out in society. There are just five of the top FTSE | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
100 companies that has a woman as Chief Executive, there is a 20% pay | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
gap between the money owned by women and the money earned by men. I look | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
at my children, two boys and a girl and I think how on earth is it | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
morally justifiable, is it economic to sustainable for my daughter to | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
have the prospects that they could be earning less than a fifth and all | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
of my sons? We have to change that, we have to show we are better than | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
the rest and we have to show that we are better than the rest. I am proud | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
that in Wales where we have had difficulties with all women short | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
lists, I was at the heart of some of those and we have turned it around. | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
The assembly, the Labour group at the assembly is a beacon of hope for | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
women. I did ask Jeremy Corbyn about... APPLAUSE | :21:02. | :21:09. | |
About concerns about misogyny, there have been some concerns about your | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
use of language in recent weeks, how can you convince us that you are in | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
favour of promoting women when that sort of language is used? If I am | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
the leader of this party then I am pledging to this party that I would | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
promote women and I would use all women short lists and we had 50% of | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
the Parliamentary Labour Party. I would guarantee that at least half | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
of my Shadow Cabinet and the top jobs in my Shadow Cabinet, at least | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
half would be women and I would fight daily for women as I have | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
done. 80% of the cuts under austerity, in particular the tax | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
credit cuts, that we overturned on women, most of the cuts to disabled | :21:55. | :22:04. | |
women have fallen on women. I would fight it day in day out if I would | :22:05. | :22:14. | |
the leader of this party. Oh in's figure is correct that 80% of the | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
cuts fall disproportionately on women and after the first Tory | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
budget we did an analysis of the effects of the budget on women and | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
it is devastating. It is terrible what has happened. That is practical | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
work in opposition to show that. We also have to drive down the gender | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
pay gap, but also end the idea that certain jobs and professions are | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
reserved for what gender and not for the other. -- one gender. I | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
organised a very interesting event in parliament in the summer which | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
was of women engineers, we invited them to Parliament. I talked to some | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
of the older women who had studied engineering 20 or 30 years ago and | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
they said how lonely it was at college and university when they | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
said they wanted to be an engineer. They said I want to be an engineer, | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
my mother taught me all of this, she loved science. You have to start at | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
the beginning in schools. You have to make sure nothing is barred to | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
the girls. Deal with the issue of gender pay and inequality and deal | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
with the issues of glass ceilings and dissemination that go with it. | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
It is not just about women in the boardroom, women in the parliament | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
all women councillors, it is also about day-to-day life, the way women | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
lose out on career opportunities because they have taken a year or | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
two off to have children in their 30s and suddenly find all the career | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
opportunities they thought were there have suddenly disappeared. We | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
need tough legislation to prevent that happening and in companies we | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
need to end the social network of early evening discussion groups | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
where aspirin candidates in different positions in companies | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
come together. Who are not better, younger women who are looking after | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
their children, the men should also be at home looking after their | :24:11. | :24:19. | |
children. APPLAUSE Again Jeremy and I are at one on | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
this. We have to end maternity discrimination and end the gender | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
pay gap. Barbara Castle put through the original equal pay act. A great | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
beacon for women in this country, but we need another equal pay act. | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
We need to use legislation in parliament in order to narrow that | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
gap. We need to change the laws of this country in order to outlaw | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
discrimination against women and to do that we have to be in government! | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
CHEERING APPLAUSE | :24:56. | :25:03. | |
I am not happy with as being out of government. We have to win, Jeremy, | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
we cannot just talk about it, we have to change it! Owen, I thought | :25:08. | :25:15. | |
we were moving into an area of agreement there. I'm sure you will | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
agree with this. To you in greed the most instructive Shadow Cabinet | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
meeting we had was when we went to Dagenham and we had the women | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
strikers from Ford's in Dagenham who had themselves one equal pay. It was | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
an object lesson to all of us and it was a great meeting. I am sure you | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
will agree with me. I agree with you, great women. Time for one more, | :25:38. | :25:48. | |
keep this as brief as possible. This comes from Caffe Hopkins in Cardiff. | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
How does the Labour Party re-engage voters in Wales? Three engaging | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
voters by investment in public services, by investment in housing, | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
health, but above all investment in job opportunities. Recognising the | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
good work done by the government of Wales in dealing with issues of | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
homelessness in dealing with issues of ending the internal market within | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
the NHS, helping children through school with breakfast clubs, many | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
other practical ways of support. Not punishing the people of Wales and | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
underfunding the government of Wales which is what this government is | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
doing. Also ensuring that being the structural investment from the EU | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
that is lost is replaced by the UK Government so we do get the South | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
East wales metro. I would like to see the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth | :26:38. | :26:49. | |
rail link reopened. APPLAUSE Let's hear it for Carmarthen! I | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
would like to have a Labour government in Westminster to work | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
with our brilliant Labour government in Wales! If we had that we could | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
say as I want to say let's give Welsh workers the biggest boost in | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
their wages that we have seen in a generation. Let's have a proper | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
living wage, eight and 25 an hour, tomorrow, by having a Labour | :27:12. | :27:22. | |
government. -- ?8 25 an hour. Every year our budget has been cut and | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
they have forced us to make cuts within our public services. The | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
secret to doing all of that is a Labour government in Westminster. -- | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
two I'm doing all of that. That is how we help Wales! CHEERING | :27:40. | :27:53. | |
I will ask you on both this. What is proper funding in Wales? It would be | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
sufficient to maintain the services needed in Wales, recognition of the | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
levels of poverty in many of the valley towns and recognise the | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
effects of 30 years of deindustrialisation ever since the | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
end of the mining industry after the miners strike in Wales. It is also | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
about investment in keeping industries such as the preparedness | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
of government to intervene to make sure that Port Talbot stays open, to | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
make sure we have a steel industry in Wales and the preparedness to | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
take a public stake in it. It has to be fair funding across the whole of | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
the UK and the transport infrastructure in Wales is a massive | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
one, I complement the Welsh government on what it has tried to | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
do, but quite honestly it is ridiculous that it is very difficult | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
to travel other than by car from north to south Wales because of the | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
inadequacy of the roads and the inadequacy of the rail system that | :28:51. | :28:52. | |
simply does not connect one part of the country to the other. | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
What is proper funding, can you give us something? I'd interest an extra | :29:00. | :29:07. | |
?10 billion in infrastructure in Wales over Parliament. We would get | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
our fair share of that ?200 billion new deal. I'd invest an extra ?1 | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
billion a year in Wales in resource funding for Wales getting their fair | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
share of the ?20 billion of extra taxes I've been lurking on the | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
wealthiest in this country. -- I would be levering on the wealthiest | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
in this country. It would allow the Welsh government to increase | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
spending on the NHS by 4% in every year of the next parliament, it | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
would allow Wales to surpass the European averages for spending on | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
the NHS. Not fall below as we are doing now, but to do all of that | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
we've got to be a Labour government. Carolyn Jones needs a Labour | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
government at both ends of the M4. -- Carwyn Jones. That's how we end | :29:58. | :30:05. | |
austerity, not by protesting, but by winning in Parliament. APPLAUSE | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
Time has beaten us, we've run out of time for questions. Under the final | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
bit of the evening, which is to give as your two minute closing pitchers. | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
Why are you the man for the job? Starting with Owen Smith - minutes | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
to explain today's audience. Thank you, Catherine. I think has been | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
clear tonight. I see that our country is in crisis. It's a crisis | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
that has been long in the making, and a crisis that was dramatically | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
compounded by that terrible vote on June 23. We've seen wages collapse, | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
we've seen job security collapse, we've seen the grossest levels of | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
inequality in this country has seen in a century. Our NHS is crumbling, | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
Labour's legacy across Britain is being wiped out in this crisis. At | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
the same time, the Labour Party, when we are at our most needed in | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
Britain, is in crisis ourselves. Divided, divided and in danger of | :31:09. | :31:16. | |
being defeated. So, the answer, my friends, is a Labour government that | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
is ready to govern once more. A powerful, strong opposition to the | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
Tories. A radical, credible Labour government in waiting, ready to | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
implement a massive investment programme, ready to be | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
industrialised many parts of Britain, ready to give us the | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
biggest boost to wages, a proper living wage, proper pensions for our | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
hardest working people in public services and the private sector. | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
What we need is nothing less than the most radical, practical, | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
socialist programme for government that we've seen since 1945. I am | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
clear about that, that's the scale of the challenge we face and that | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
the scale of the challenge we must set ourselves. If you put your faith | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
in me, if you elect me as leader of the Labour Party, then I will | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
deliver that. I will fight for and deliver the most radical programme | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
we've seen in this country since the great Labour government of 1945. I | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
promise you I will deliver that, I will unite our party around it, and | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
I will take us back to government. APPLAUSE | :32:29. | :32:37. | |
Thank you. They'll be plenty of time for applause later. Can I now ask | :32:38. | :33:03. | |
Jeremy Corbyn to sum up you have two minute. Thank you very much and | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
thank you for being here at this hustings, you've been brilliant. We | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
can win a general election, and we've been winning elections all | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
this year. We won four Parliamentary by-elections, three with a big swing | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
to Labour. We won four male role contests. We lost the general | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
election in 2015. -- four male role elections. It was a sad day. We | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
lost, I believe, because we were not offering a clear enough alternative | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
to the British people. It's not good enough to go on the doorstep and | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
say, we'll make less cuts than they will, we'll have austerity, but | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
it'll be austerity light. We've got to offer something different. A year | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
ago we were abstaining on the Welfare Reform Bill which cut ?12 | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
million from the welfare budget, we should have been opposing the bill. | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
We've now become a party that has a clear economic alternative of | :34:00. | :34:01. | |
something very different. So defeating the Tories on the personal | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
independence payments, the force Academy session of schools in | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
England, and other issues, has been something we've achieved when we've | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
worked together. This is also brought in a lot of new members to | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
the party. Membership has just doubled it gone from 200,000 to | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
540,000, the biggest membership there has ever been. We're a party | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
that is active at all levels our society and within our community. | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
People are engaged in politics in a way they never wear before. In the | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
last election only 47% of young people voted in that election. I | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
regret that. They are paying the price. We are all paying the price | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
of that. Mobilise and infuse people. We'll go a lot further and faster. | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
The ten points I put forward this morning were about full employment | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
and many other things. But we rebuilt to transform. No one, | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
nowhere, is left behind. Let us have faith in ourselves, our community, | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
our party, and our ability to deliver real social justice all | :35:10. | :35:18. | |
across this country. APPLAUSE CHEERING | :35:19. | :35:26. | |
Thank you all for your... CHEERING APPLAUSE | :35:27. | :35:51. | |
Thank you all for your warm responses to both speeches to end | :35:52. | :35:58. | |
this. Can I thank Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith for opening hustings here | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
in Cardiff this evening. Thank you in the audience, and he went home, | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
for sending your questions in. And for a great debate. Thank you very | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
much. STUDIO: The conclusion of the first Labour leadership campaign | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
hustings in which Owen Smith said the party was fractured and | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
splintered. Jeremy Corbyn pointing out he had won by-elections and | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
mayoral elections under his leadership. Tom Symons is in | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
Cardiff. He was there. People getting up to leave. It was often | :36:32. | :36:39. | |
quite sparky? It was quite sparky. It was fascinating. Two people | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
firmly trying to hold onto their positions in this race. The first | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
time they confronted each other at those podiums after confronting each | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
other perhaps in the media more than anything else over the past few | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
weeks. What struck me is how often they said they agreed with each | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
other on policy, they really do agree with each other on many of the | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
policies and they've both been talking policy this week. One | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
example, both talking about an industrial strategy to pour money | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
into the economy. There was a mantra from one side of the argument, Owen | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
Smith. Time and time again he used phrases like this: the problem is | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
we're not defeating the Tories, 14 points behind. 172 MPs can he said, | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
Labour MPs, voted against you, Jeremy Corbyn. He said, we've got to | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
get greens, Tories and Liberals to vote Labour. We've got to be in | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
power is what he said time time again. Jeremy Corbyn stressed his | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
victory since last general election, year. He said, for example, council | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
seats had been won. The London mayoral elections had been won. He | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
condemned the silly childish behaviours of some of his MPs in the | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
Commons. He said he had built the party into a very strong force. It | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
was really the core of this battle between a man who firmly believes he | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
can win power as leader of the party, and a man who firmly believes | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
he can't, and that takeover is the only way forward for the party. Owen | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
Smith closed by saying the country is in crisis, but also the Labour | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
Party was in crisis. He stressed his socialism. He said, we need to be | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
radical. And he said, in power. Jeremy Corbyn said we could win a | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
general election under the leadership of him. The reason we | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
didn't win the last election is we weren't clear enough as an | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
alternative. He gave the example of the Labour Party, he said, arguing | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
for austerity light. This is number one of five hustings. It would be | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
very interesting to see where it goes from this. There was a real | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
battle as well over the rerunning of the EU referendum which Owen Smith | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
saying if he was leader, if he became Prime Minister, he would | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
rerun the EU referendum. I mean clearly Europe is a big point of | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
conflict between these two men. Owen Smith has said that before. He has | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
restated it today. It's a controversial view, legally quite | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
difficult, it would go against the majority view as the referendum. | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
Jeremy Corbyn has been on the ropes for his actions in the referendum | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
campaign. Owen Smith trying to score points here today, trying to say he | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
has never really been pro-EU. Jeremy Corbyn... Saint Jeremy Corbyn wanted | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
to enact article 50 quickly, the article which effectively gets us | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
into the endgame for leaving the European Union. That will be one for | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
them to pour over later, when the spinning really starts around this | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
debate. Another interesting every was the reaction Jeremy Corbyn got | :39:43. | :39:43. | |
on the economy. He said Shadow Chancellor John | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
McDonnell had been clear on the need to fight austerity. He said the | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
policy didn't change until John McDonnell was appointed Shadow | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
Chancellor. He made a point about the fact the government was backing | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
a policy of spending money on rent, then paying people money to pay | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
those rents through the benefit system. It got good response. He got | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
a huge cheer when he said a very clear straightforward point, that he | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
had voted against the renewal of Trident. Of course, quite a | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
meaningful debate here about disarmament. The men talked about it | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
without the cheering and shouting we'd heard through this debate. For | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
some time. It is clear Jeremy Corbyn is the unilateralist. And Owen Smith | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
is the multilateralist. I think they are never going to agree on that | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
one. Tom Symons, thank you very much indeed. | :40:37. | :40:52. | |
With us now is correspondent Richard sleeve. | :40:53. | :40:53. |