Labour Leadership Hustings BBC News Special


Labour Leadership Hustings

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We can cross now live the Cardiff and Jeremy Corbyn has been setting

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out his vision to rebuild and transform Britain earlier.

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Mr Corbyn due in Cardiff. We believe he is about to head up to the stage

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for this very first head-to-head leadership challenge with Owen

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Smith. As you can see there, the stage being set for him to start

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speaking shortly. Tonight's debate... To my's debate is a

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departure from the traditional hustings from last year. Firstly, we

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are being live. That means everyone is able to watch and the what the

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candidates have to say. And this time, the candidates will be able to

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directly debate their positions, which will lead to a lively engaging

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discussion and help the audience at home understand the position being

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staked out by each of the two candidates. My name is Catherine

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Jones. But tonight, I have the task of being the independent moderator

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this evening. Before we begin, I want to quickly set out how this

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event will run. Backstage a short while ago, Jeremy Corbyn and Owen

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Smith drew lots to determine the order in which they would take

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questions. Over the past week and a half, members and supporters of the

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Labour Party have been sending in their questions online. There were

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indeed a significant number of questions so we will try to get to

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as many of them tonight as possible and get a broad range to reflect

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that selection. I will put your questions to each

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candidate in turn and give them 40 seconds each to give the initial

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answers before opening up the debate between the two candidates. To close

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the debate this evening, I will invite each candidate to give a

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speech and why they're the best candidate to lead the Labour Party.

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Before we kick off, a couple of pieces of housekeeping. If we can

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ask the audience to refrain from prolonged applause and making

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comments out of turn. Also, there is more information about the upcoming

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debates and a form to submit any questions for those debates online.

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And now, without further ado, let us get on with the debate. For the 2016

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Labour leadership election, Jeremy Corbyn, Owen Smith, welcome. So, to

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open the debate tonight, the first question or request comes from David

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Appleyard. And Owen Smith, we will ask you to open this. David

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Appleyard asks, can you convince me the URL the person Theresa May would

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least like to face? I think I can. I think I have got the ideas in this

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debate. I think I have got the energy this debate and I think I see

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very clearly what we need to be, which is a powerful credible

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opposition to the Tory party. They are riding roughshod over us. We

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have less to Europe. We have got a bankrupt NHS that is destroying

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Labour's legacy, overcrowding and schools, and we have got carried the

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fight to the Tories much more vigorously than recent months. I

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demonstrate in the way for the tax credits issue and turned it, the way

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in which I bought the cuts to disabled people, I know how to fight

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these the these Tories. Jeremy Corbyn, can you convince David

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Appleyard your other person that Theresa May would least like to face

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at the next general election? Theresa May is a Tory Prime Minister

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and is likely to preside over a bargain basement economy that will

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tackle all of our rights, living standards in public services. She

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does not understand the strength of ordinary people's feelings all over

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the country which is why I have tried to change Prime Minister's

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Questions from a public school put into asking the questions are put to

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me by ordinary people all over this country. I think we can put it to

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her that what she's doing is wrong and, in the past ten months, we have

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defeated the government 22 times in Parliament when we work together we

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win, and when we work together with to defeat Tories. And opening up the

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debate, Owen Smith. The problem is we are not defeating the Tories. We

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have had a few victories. But we are behind. We are 14 percentage points

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by the Tories under Theresa May, 2 million Labour voters would prefer

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her to Jeremy Corbyn is Prime Minister this country! That has got

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to be a wake-up call for us all. You cannot be satisfied with that. I do

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not think that is sufficient. I want us to be looked at by the country as

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a credible respected opposition and the Labour government in waiting. I

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know you are radical, I am radical, but I want is to be radical in

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government not in protesting against the Tories. In the ten months since

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the last leadership election, we have defeated the Tories many times

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and you my work together to ensure that happened. We won all four

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by-elections, we won four Mayall contests, we picked up a lot of

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support over the general election of 2015. As an opposition, I think we

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have done very well. We were ahead in May, then came the wave of

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resignation, then came the threat to unity in the party, and that is what

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has the doors behind in the polls. I honestly believe that come the end

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of this contest, you and I will work together in Parliament in order to

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put forward a decent anti-austerity strategy, even stronger than we have

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labelled the amount so far because the party I hope will unite around

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an economic strategy which is about investment to protect and jobs,

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which is about showing what the Tories are about, and that way, we

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can use this massive membership will got to defeat the Tories and win a

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general election. We agree we need a united Labour Party. Disunited

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parties lose elections. But we have never looked more disunited than we

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have looked under your leadership! Part of the reason we are so

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disunited is we are losing, we lost in the local government elections.

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The Tories won 300 seats. Ed Miliband at this point in the cycle

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was nine percentage points ahead. We are 14 points behind. Ukip here in

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Wales 17 seats. It was a disgrace that we have got Ukip in our

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National Assembly in Wales when you watch, a watch, we are failed in

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Scotland, behind the Tories. This is not success, Jeremy. Our current

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trajectory, we will be down 22% at the next election in 2020 under your

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leadership. No you cannot want that because you want the Labour

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government. You want to put into practice our principles. You want to

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actually deliver something for this country. That means winning. It does

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not mean trading. It means winning. That is what we have got to do. You

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and I were at the same Shadow Cabinet table when we agreed on the

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strategy. We agreed on where we would take it to the Tories and we

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have a significant number of victories. And we did defeat the

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Tories in the May elections. We were ahead of them at the end of it. And

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the party 's growing massively in membership. What I do not understand

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is how you can complain about disunity in the party when you

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another is the ones who resigned. At the very point... I'm not having

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that, Jeremy. You knew I was not part of any clue in the Labour

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Party. I did not resign from the Shadow Cabinet on that Sunday. We

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want to hear from the candidates, please. You know I came to see you

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to say, not can I resign? But how do we get out of this problem? You knew

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we had a no-confidence vote on new knew many of my colleagues, who did

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not ring me and asked me to resign, had resigned on that Sunday. I went

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to Jeremy and said clearly, had we get out of this? I never served in

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your Shadow Cabinet with loyalty and have helped to win those victorious,

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but you have got to do something to save the Labour Party because at the

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moment, we face the prospect of a historic split in the Labour Party.

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You could not answer that question. You did not have an answer as to how

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we would forge better relations and the party. He simply said, let's

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have an election. John McDonnell was very clearly happy to split this

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party. He said as much. I'm not standing by to see the Labour Party

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split while I have got... I'm not doing it. John McDonnell has been an

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MP since 1997. He won a seat of the Tories and has made it into a strong

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labour and seat. You concluded our discussion by offering me unopposed

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election to a position that is not exist as President of the party and

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invited me to step aside. I pointed out, yes, there were problems in the

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Parliamentary Labour Party and I pointed to a Shadow Cabinet the

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restart long way in the party, Wade Burley on the politics I had adopted

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beforehand. Surely, the best thing is for us to recognise what is

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happening in this country and work together to defeat the Tory party,

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not indulge. I will bring it to a close there. I am sure we will

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revisit those topics with the next question. This comes from John Barth

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in London. You will have 30 seconds to summarise answer to this. Jeremy

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Corbyn, you will answer first. Do you think that in order to be an

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effective leader of the Labour Party, the leader needs to have the

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support of the majority of the Labour Members of Parliament? It

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would be a good thing of Labour MPs got behind their leader and worked

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with them rather than vote against them all the time. I understand

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political differences and dissent. I practice that myself. As everybody

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is very well aware. But personal abuse is not acceptable, endlessly

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briefing against people is not acceptable and effective leadership

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must have the support of party members and affiliates and I think

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Members of Parliament should recognise that the structure of our

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party has changed and I had last year a very strong democratic

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mandate to try and change things and is and I believe we have changed

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politics in this party. Owen Smith, the same again to you. The leader of

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the Labour Party has a historic duty to hold together a coalition in the

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coalition with different views. It coalition with different views. It

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is the principal job of the leader to forge a powerful alliance in the

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party and country and at Westminster. It has always been the

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case. It was the case in the 1940s and 60s and today. And Jeremy I am

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afraid has not been able to hold us together in Westminster. We are a

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fractured splinter party and the only people who would benefit from

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that of the Tories. The only people who would benefit from that is the

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radical right in this country. It is the duty of all of us not to heal

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these rifts and unite the party. How do you propose to be an effective

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opposition if you don't have the majority 's board of the

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Parliamentary Labour Party? The majority of Labour MPs want is to be

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an effective opposition. A small number are filling up the airwaves

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with various their full announcements that they constantly

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make. I want us to put the party together that does take against the

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Tories. If re-elected, I will appoint a broad Shadow Cabinet as I

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have before and encourage every Labour MP to work with the shadow

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team on taking part. But when Labour MPs decide collectively or a small

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number of them decide collectively not to do something and refused to

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turn up to a debate on the economy because it was opened by John

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McDonnell, that is silly and childish. Their duty is to be out

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there, putting it to the Tories. I agree with Jeremy that some of my

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colleagues have never been reconciled. Some people have not

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behaved well. But Jeremy, 172 Labour MPs voted no in new leadership. They

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are not red Tories, these are people who want to see the Tories back in

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power, they are not Blairites, they are just Labour MPs. And this sort

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of abuse, but just because they are not confident in you as a leader

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they are anti-labour or red Tories, it cannot be allowed to continue. We

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cannot have this ugly dialogue in the Labour Party. We are fighting

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like ferrets in a sack. And the Tories will benefit if we're not

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united. You have got to do more, Jeremy. I do not think you can. I am

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the last one to do an ugly dialogue with anybody, quite honestly. I read

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some memoirs of Harold Wilson at the time I was elected to this position,

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and he used to, every Wednesday afternoon, open his office and any

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Labour MP could go and talk to him. I have done the same. I have learnt

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a lot from those conversations. And I hope a blunt things as well. That

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surely is the right we're doing things. But we have got to recognise

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that the Parliamentary party is very important of the Labour Party and

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movement but it is not the entirety of it. We have to represent what our

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members want, what our affiliates want and the communities that our

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members and affiliates want. Therefore, I was very pleased when

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we managed to turn it around from abstaining on the Welfare Reform

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Bill year ago to absolutely opposing it and eventually working together

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and defeating them on tax credits. Who led back campaign? I did. I was

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the shadow Secretary of State for DWP. I was the one who took the

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fight to Iain Duncan Smith. And I was desperate to fight the Labour

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victory but at the moment, we are 14 points behind the Tories. We do not

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look like ousting them from power and that is because we are not

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convincing the country that they have got to put back their trust in

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us, that they can look at those under your leadership and see a

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credible and radical government in waiting. And the reason for that is

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we have not put in place a programme. We have lots of slogans

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like anti-austerity but what are we for? I am for pro-prosperity, a

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British new deal, winning in order to put on the table proper worker's

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rights. We have got to get into power to do that. We are all there

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for winning. You made a lot of statements over the last few days

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and I'm pleased you have, all of them have already been made by the

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Shadow Cabinet during the past year. If we can come together on an

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economic strategy which is about investment and public investment and

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a national investment bank, that is good because that is really what

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this country needs. The Tories will take us down to a bargain basement

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island of the continent of Europe with low wages, high profits,

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grotesque levels of inequality and a growing service economy at the

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expense of our manufacturing economy. You and I don't want that.

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We want something different which requires us to work together to get

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that investment and get a government that is prepared to intervene in the

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economy and provide everyone with decent standards of living that they

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not just one but need and deserve and that we do not go into a cycle

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of intergenerational poverty which is what has happened with 30 years

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of neoliberal economics or across Europe. You and I agree on much of

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the analysis of what has gone wrong in our economy. We shared that view

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that we have got long-term structural crisis. You say we put in

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place these policies. It is just not true. I have sat in the Shadow

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Cabinet with you. I do not think I have ever heard you say... I said,

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let's inset 4% a year in the NHS. I said I would introduce a wealth tax.

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I said we should cut pension the wealthiest in this country, we

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should increase corporation tax, reversed the inheritance tax, I have

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said how we should raise an extra ?20 billion in new taxes the

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wealthiest people and the corporations in this country and I

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have said precisely where I would spend that. If we put in place that

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programme, if you had been articulating those concrete

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proposals instead of sloganising about anti-austerity, I think we

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would do better. I really do. We will allowed to go to a close. One

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of the problems in the last general elections... Can I be very quick?

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One of the last problems was that we were in effect offering austerity

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light. We were offering the continuation of wage freezes and I

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had to change. It has changed. That is why politics is changing in this

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country and now you find an economic consensus saying, austerity is

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wrong. That did not happen until John McDonnell was appointed Shadow

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Chancellor. In the spirit of things, we should get out a quick remark. I

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agree with Jeremy that he used to be thanked for having helped the Labour

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Party rediscover its radicalism but we need to be more than radical, we

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need to be credible. We have got to look like people with the policies

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and ideas that the country can trust in. While many in the Labour Party

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might trust you at the moment, the country is not trusting you, and

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therein lies our problem. I'm afraid we will have to move on to the next

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topic to make sure we are as fair as possible those questions. Elizabeth

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will open on this one. What would Labour's Brexit plan B? It is from

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Gareth Pegg in Leeds. I do not want to Brexit plan under Labour. I think

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it was a mistake for our country to exit the European Union, it was a

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monumental mistake, and all of us in the Labour Party should feel a

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degree of responsibility and shamed by having stopped the Brexit

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strategy. I do not blame Jeremy the best. 67% of Labour voters voted to

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stay in but we could have worked a lot harder to win that Brexit vote,

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and I think you were wrong, Jeremy, to say on the day after the vote

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that we will trigger article 50 and leave the European Union. We would

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fight to stay in the European Union. We would say, let's negotiate in the

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second referendum. The question was, what is Labour's

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Brexit plan? The EU was far from perfect, but we had to protect

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workers' rights and extend those rights and signed the posting of the

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workers directive. I made more media appearances than the rest of the

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Shadow Cabinet put together during the EU referendum campaign and Owain

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and I spoke together at a rally in Cardiff on this subject. Straight

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out of a result, I had a meeting with the European Socialist parties

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that we would work together with them on environmental issues, market

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issues and environmental concerns we share. That is the strategy. If the

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opposition going for a second referendum? We should want to stay

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in the European Union and we should demand a seat at the table alongside

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the Tories, arguing the best possible negotiation. The country

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was lied to by Brexit. We would told we would get this extra ?350

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million. It was all I and we know that and we do not know what the

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outturn of this would be so I say let's negotiate hard, let's stand up

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or we still believe in. We believe in collaboration and cooperation

:25:40.:25:42.

across our country and between countries and I think it would be

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difficult for Jeremy to take out bike to the Tories because the 30

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years, you did not believe in the European Union, and we all know it.

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And you wonder about that conversion at the last minute and workers'

:25:59.:26:04.

rights. But we were part of a much bigger European project. We were

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leaders in Europe and now we are on the sidelines. We're not that. We

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are an outward looking country and we should look for harder and under

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me, we will fight much harder. I opened my speech by saying, we are

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here because we are the Labour Party and we're not retreating to a small

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island mentality of running away. We want to work with you for the

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future. Yes, I have had many criticisms of the European Union,

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its free-market philosophy, the way in which the Maastricht Treaty was

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pushed through and the deregulation agenda that Margaret Thatcher and

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others have pushed through. But I have also worked hard with Socialist

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parties and unions or across Europe on workers' rights, environmental

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protection, consumer protection. All of those

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things that are very important across the continent. We have an

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opportunity here to put as much pressure as possible on the

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government, demand be part of negotiations, but above all, protect

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the environmental issues are so important and maintain access to

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European markets the industries all over Britain because if we lose that

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access to those markets, it is very unclear how quickly or where they

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will be replaced by you know that as well as I do. I do know that,

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Jeremy. I thought it was a mistake for us to come off the back of the

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Brexit vote and say let's sugar Article 50. I do not understand why

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you wanted to do that. We should still be fighting for what we

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believe in, which is remaining part of the European Union. It is more

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than workers' rights and environmental protection. It is a

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disaster we have left because now we are left with very little

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protection, very little mitigation against our right wing rotten Tory

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government that will use this as an excuse to strip away the rights that

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we believe in and Europe is our safeguard for those rights. We

:28:13.:28:16.

should have been in the trenches, fighting for it, every day. I do not

:28:17.:28:21.

think we fought hard enough and it breaks my heart.

:28:22.:28:32.

Can we just respond to the point that Owen Smith made about tangoing

:28:33.:28:45.

-- triggering article 50. I said it was inevitable it should be

:28:46.:28:50.

triggered. Maybe I should choose my words more carefully. It is going to

:28:51.:28:57.

be triggered at some point. It is going to be triggered at some point

:28:58.:29:04.

and will be. I hope not. I don't know when it will be triggered. We

:29:05.:29:09.

have to recognise a referendum was cold, it did take place and a

:29:10.:29:16.

majority, sadly not my wish, a majority voted to leave. By half

:29:17.:29:21.

week -- I think we have to do all we can on the areas we agreed to try to

:29:22.:29:29.

ensure we continue having access for industry to the market.

:29:30.:29:32.

Environmental and consumer regulations. All those things. I

:29:33.:29:36.

have arranged for a meeting which I hope you will attend with the

:29:37.:29:39.

Norwegian Labour Party in September to discuss how they do things and

:29:40.:29:45.

discuss what their relationship is with the European Union. I would be

:29:46.:29:55.

delighted... I do think this is a fundamental issue of leadership. It

:29:56.:30:02.

is the most disastrous situation. Worse than ours to lose an election,

:30:03.:30:09.

for us to be leaving the European Union and become an isolated island.

:30:10.:30:15.

I say to you, if you win this contest and you remain leader of our

:30:16.:30:19.

party, will you agree with me that it should be our policy to push hard

:30:20.:30:25.

in these Brexit negotiations and put it to the country again in a second

:30:26.:30:31.

referendum or at the general election? It will likely be at a

:30:32.:30:37.

general election. We campaigned as a party and got more than two thirds

:30:38.:30:42.

of our supporters to vote to remain, but it wasn't evenly spread across

:30:43.:30:47.

the country, as you well know. My constituency voted 72% to remain.

:30:48.:30:52.

Constituencies in the valleys and in other places voted quite strongly to

:30:53.:30:58.

leave. We have to win those people back. The reason they did that was

:30:59.:31:08.

because there has been underinvestment in those

:31:09.:31:11.

communities. We agree about that. We need a re-industrialisation

:31:12.:31:12.

programme. Would need to deal with wages, workers' rights, we need to

:31:13.:31:18.

invest in those communities. But it would be so much easier to do that

:31:19.:31:24.

inside Europe. Let's be clear. The Bank of England met today and

:31:25.:31:27.

reduced interest rates to their lowest level for 300 years. The

:31:28.:31:36.

announced another ?60 billion of investment in our bankers, in order

:31:37.:31:38.

to refloat the economy. They said inflation is going to go up, house

:31:39.:31:45.

prices are going to go up, wages are going to fall, and because of our

:31:46.:31:50.

leaving the European Union. It is an unmitigated disaster. Get real. The

:31:51.:31:59.

result was really. We have to make the best of it. We have to fight to

:32:00.:32:09.

stay in. There was a question from Gerald. Could Labour Party have done

:32:10.:32:15.

more during the campaign? Could the Labour Party have provided better

:32:16.:32:20.

leadership in this? We spent a lot of money on it, we did a lot of

:32:21.:32:29.

campaigning. I travelled the whole country doing a large number of

:32:30.:32:34.

rallies and meetings. I think one of the problems was that until the last

:32:35.:32:38.

few days of the campaign, the media were only interested in the split in

:32:39.:32:43.

the Tory party and it was very hard for us to get any coverage of what

:32:44.:32:47.

was really going on. Obviously there are lessons to be learned from every

:32:48.:32:54.

campaign you undertake. I did not blame the media. I said it was one

:32:55.:33:00.

factor. Not the only factor. We worked hard as a party. We got the

:33:01.:33:05.

vast majority of our supporters to vote for remain. The Tory party did

:33:06.:33:11.

the opposite and less than a third of their supporters actually voted

:33:12.:33:14.

to remain. The result is what the result is. We now have to work with

:33:15.:33:20.

it to try to protect jobs, industry, the environment and the social

:33:21.:33:24.

issues that are so important. Things where we have benefited in the

:33:25.:33:32.

European Union. Owen and I spoke together at a remain rally in

:33:33.:33:38.

Cardiff City Hall not that long ago. We did. You spoke very well, but you

:33:39.:33:45.

spoke in limited terms about our European union. You spoke about

:33:46.:33:49.

workers' rights and we agree that. Environmental protection and we

:33:50.:33:52.

agree on that. And I don't think you spoke with a passion that so many

:33:53.:33:58.

others feel in the Labour Party about the reasons for being in.

:33:59.:34:04.

Internationalism, peace, prosperity. I'm not happy with socialism in one

:34:05.:34:09.

country. I wanted for all the peoples in Europe. We can be a

:34:10.:34:15.

civilising force for good in the European Union. But now we are out

:34:16.:34:19.

of it and that, for me, is an absolute travesty. Just to clarify,

:34:20.:34:25.

should the terms of a Brexit be put to the people? Owen Smith? Should be

:34:26.:34:34.

put to the people in a referendum? Definitely. Once we know what the

:34:35.:34:39.

deal looks like. Jeremy Corbyn, a brief answer? I think it will come

:34:40.:34:47.

to us in a general election. 2020 or before that. I want to work as

:34:48.:34:51.

closely as possible with Europe, with protecting those issues, but

:34:52.:34:55.

above all the economic integration between Europe and Britain is

:34:56.:35:01.

essential, otherwise a very large number of jobs, particularly in the

:35:02.:35:04.

manufacturing industry, will be lost. Will you be pushing for it? We

:35:05.:35:19.

will move onto next question. This is a question from John Berry in

:35:20.:35:23.

Cornwall. What is your industrial policy which will make the UK

:35:24.:35:29.

competitive in the global economy of the 21st-century? Primarily, it is

:35:30.:35:33.

about investment in manufacturing and funding technology industries in

:35:34.:35:36.

this country. And investment bank that will improve infrastructure.

:35:37.:35:44.

Cornwall has the lowest wages in the whole country. Some of the greatest

:35:45.:35:49.

needs for increased investment. The same with the north-east of England

:35:50.:35:55.

and the north-west of England, and parts of Wales. This is about

:35:56.:36:03.

training, it is about good quality apprenticeships, it is about not

:36:04.:36:06.

penalising young people for wanting to go to university and become

:36:07.:36:13.

qualified. It is investment in people, education and good quality

:36:14.:36:24.

jobs. My strategy would be to write some of the wrongs that previous

:36:25.:36:30.

governments, labour and Tory, have done to our economy. We have not

:36:31.:36:36.

invested in. We have allowed regional inequalities. We have

:36:37.:36:41.

allowed Britain to become the industrialised. Manufacturing used

:36:42.:36:47.

to be the mainstay of our economy. Germany and the Netherlands and

:36:48.:36:51.

other countries have a much more powerful manufacturing sector. We

:36:52.:36:54.

need a proper industrial strategy backed up with a big infrastructure

:36:55.:36:59.

programme that kick-started a British new Deal. Crucially, we need

:37:00.:37:06.

to start making things again. Really industrialising parts of the world

:37:07.:37:11.

that I come from and represent. That is the secret to getting Britain

:37:12.:37:22.

working again. Renationalisation is a common theme in your policies. How

:37:23.:37:28.

will this make us more competitive in the global market? We will be

:37:29.:37:33.

playing to our strengths, which are skills and innovation. Far too many

:37:34.:37:38.

new products that are developed at research places universities in

:37:39.:37:41.

Britain end up not being developed here and they go abroad because

:37:42.:37:44.

nobody is prepared to put capital into it. Or companies come in, buy

:37:45.:37:49.

up a small company that has done some really interesting new

:37:50.:37:51.

developments, and say to them, let's take it somewhere else. We need a

:37:52.:38:09.

different strategy in doing this. We also need to promote solutions in

:38:10.:38:11.

Britain that encourage manufacturing. For example, I was at

:38:12.:38:14.

a place in Widnes that makes the towers for wind turbines. Their

:38:15.:38:16.

industry has totally plummeted in the past couple of years because the

:38:17.:38:18.

government cut down the feed in tariffs to an unsustainable level,

:38:19.:38:22.

therefore nobody wants to buy them here. By maintaining those feed in

:38:23.:38:27.

tariffs for another five years, that would have sustained and developed

:38:28.:38:30.

that industry and the solar power industry. There are a whole number

:38:31.:38:36.

of areas where government intervention can help. Some are

:38:37.:38:41.

brilliant and very good. Some are just called for a very low pay and

:38:42.:38:45.

gross exploitation of people who think they are on an apprenticeship.

:38:46.:38:56.

Owen Smith? The Tories have presided over the slowest recovery from a

:38:57.:39:01.

recession in 100 years. We have got the biggest downturn in wages. The

:39:02.:39:06.

largest increase in job insecurity. The biggest growth in inequalities

:39:07.:39:12.

in this country, regional inequalities and individuals. The

:39:13.:39:18.

Tory government are announcing another ?60 billion for the banks.

:39:19.:39:24.

Due to a recession caused not by Labour spending on schools and

:39:25.:39:30.

hospitals, but by Tory greed and bankers greed. That is the reality.

:39:31.:39:35.

I am still angry, as I know Jeremy is, that none of those bankers have

:39:36.:39:39.

gone to jail. At the best thing we can do is put in place a framework

:39:40.:39:43.

for free-floating not the bankers, but the people, investing in Britain

:39:44.:39:48.

once more. Not compounding the problem with more austerity, but we

:39:49.:39:52.

have to be concrete about it. It is not just enough to say

:39:53.:40:14.

we are going to be anti-austerity. We have to say, how are we going to

:40:15.:40:18.

raise the money to invest in day-to-day services and in our

:40:19.:40:20.

industry? By first of all borrowing ?200 billion of British new Deal, we

:40:21.:40:23.

haven't had that before from Labour in the last nine months. And by

:40:24.:40:29.

raising taxes. Not getting back to the bonus culture that sees Philip

:40:30.:40:32.

Green and others on their yacht whilst nurses and care worker Caesar

:40:33.:40:38.

pay frozen. Good old-fashioned socialist policies. Ones that people

:40:39.:40:52.

can believe in. One of the mistakes we have made before was then the

:40:53.:40:59.

banking crisis came, we build up with ?300 billion of quantitative

:41:00.:41:00.

easing. We didn't invest in the manufacturing

:41:01.:41:16.

industry. Some were pulling buy to let mortgages from the marketplace.

:41:17.:41:21.

As some of them have turned around a bit, like Lloyds, ?2.5 billion

:41:22.:41:25.

profit, the result is they dismiss a large number of their staff and

:41:26.:41:29.

close 200 more branches. We have a public stake in these banks. We

:41:30.:41:36.

should exercise and use these public states. I agree. I say about all of

:41:37.:41:51.

these things, we agree about so much of this stuff, we are both men... So

:41:52.:42:01.

why did you resign? I don't think we can win, Jeremy. Without being able

:42:02.:42:05.

to win, without being able to put our principles into action, I don't

:42:06.:42:13.

think we can do anything other than protest about it. We have to win in

:42:14.:42:18.

order to get this stuff done. Otherwise it is just hot air,

:42:19.:42:25.

Jeremy. Thank you. The next question comes from Georgina Alan. The

:42:26.:42:34.

British public appears to be convinced the Labour Party is a

:42:35.:42:38.

financially irresponsible party. How would you challenge this white held

:42:39.:42:43.

view? Added spell at precisely where all the money that I want to spend

:42:44.:42:49.

on improving public services, we were to come from. That is why we

:42:50.:42:53.

failed to win back trust in the last nine months. We have not been clear.

:42:54.:42:58.

We have said we are anti-austerity, but we have not said specifically

:42:59.:43:10.

enough what we are in favour of or Hollywood funded. I would be clear.

:43:11.:43:13.

?200 million to invest in public services, in schools, in health

:43:14.:43:15.

care, in hospitals. New taxis on the wealthiest. Get rid of the big cut

:43:16.:43:20.

in corporation tax. Put it back up to 20% at least. Make sure we are

:43:21.:43:28.

not offering the wealthiest more tax breaks. Reform our pension system.

:43:29.:43:31.

It is rigged against ordinary workers. Be credible... Thank you,

:43:32.:43:37.

Owen Smith. Jeremy Corbyn, what is your opening response to this? How

:43:38.:43:46.

do you convince people the Labour Party is financially responsible? By

:43:47.:43:50.

spending money sensibly and wisely, not wasting it as this government is

:43:51.:43:55.

doing. If you charge people unreasonably high rents and use the

:43:56.:44:02.

profits to subsidise landlords, that is wasting money. If people need to

:44:03.:44:08.

access working tax credits to keep their head above water, that is not

:44:09.:44:13.

a sensible use of money. A large housing programme that will build 1

:44:14.:44:20.

million new homes over five years, council housing, lifetime tenancy,

:44:21.:44:24.

proper investment. Good sense, good business and creates good jobs, not

:44:25.:44:30.

just for building workers but all down the supply chain. That is

:44:31.:44:35.

financial sense. Fiscal responsibility was at the heart of

:44:36.:44:42.

Ed Miliband's manifesto. You have had ten months at the helm. Why are

:44:43.:44:50.

people still convinced that Labour is a financially irresponsible

:44:51.:44:54.

party? We need to get the message out there about what is financially

:44:55.:44:58.

irresponsible in this government, in its waste of money, on the way it

:44:59.:45:02.

does a lot of things, its lack of investment in public need and the

:45:03.:45:08.

disgraceful way it has treated local government or across England and the

:45:09.:45:11.

way it has treated the Welsh and Scottish Government in the funding

:45:12.:45:15.

they get. That is actually irresponsible because what you end

:45:16.:45:19.

up doing is making the poorest and most vulnerable pay the highest

:45:20.:45:23.

price. We have to get the message out there, this government is about

:45:24.:45:29.

hitting the poorest in our society. How are you going to do that?

:45:30.:45:34.

Successive Labour leaders have tried, but why isn't the message

:45:35.:45:39.

getting out there? We will do our best to get that message out there

:45:40.:45:42.

in our campaign and through the media. We will do our best to put it

:45:43.:45:48.

out there, that inequality is a waste. Tax write-offs and tax havens

:45:49.:45:52.

are irresponsible and fundamentally wrong. I would've thought the Panama

:45:53.:45:59.

papers were so obvious about everything that is wrong in modern

:46:00.:46:02.

Britain and the way the wealthy think they can evade tax. Successive

:46:03.:46:10.

Labour leaders have tried to evade this, how will you change this? By

:46:11.:46:16.

showing the country the balance sheet. Quite simply. By saying we

:46:17.:46:20.

can get ?6 billion from reversing the corporation tax. We can get an

:46:21.:46:26.

extra 1 billion by getting rid of the inheritance tax, allowing

:46:27.:46:29.

millionaires to pass on their homes to their children free of charge. We

:46:30.:46:38.

can get ?3 billion by introducing a surcharge on the dividends and

:46:39.:46:42.

shares held by only the wealthiest 1%. Those people already earning

:46:43.:46:48.

?150,000 a year, practical policies. Then saying to the public, what

:46:49.:46:52.

would we spend this money on? We would spend it on the NHS. 4% a year

:46:53.:47:02.

to get us back up to the levels... Practical policies. If we were

:47:03.:47:07.

explicit, concrete and credible, we would be listened to. At present, 2

:47:08.:47:11.

million labour voters are telling us they would rather have a Tory Prime

:47:12.:47:16.

Minister than a Labour government, and that has got to be a wake-up

:47:17.:47:30.

call to everybody in this party. In a time of great national debt, how

:47:31.:47:37.

is campaigning on a policy of being anti-austerity going to reinforce an

:47:38.:47:41.

idea that Labour is financially responsible? They have doubled the

:47:42.:47:46.

debt under the Tories. The borrowed 40 billion extra this year than you

:47:47.:47:52.

are projected to do six months ago. It has failed. Fundamentally. The

:47:53.:47:57.

NHS is going bust right across this country. Our councils are having to

:47:58.:48:02.

strip millions of pounds out of their budgets. Austerity has

:48:03.:48:15.

fundamentally failed Britain. It is time for a Labour government to say,

:48:16.:48:18.

let's start investing in this country. It is not a question of

:48:19.:48:21.

whether we can afford to do this, it is a question of whether we can

:48:22.:48:24.

afford not to do it. They keep saying to me, the Tories across the

:48:25.:48:26.

chamber, you will leave debts for our children. My answer is I am not

:48:27.:48:29.

prepared to leave crumbling schools and talk in hospitals and in

:48:30.:48:32.

infrastructure and industry in this country that is unfit to serve my

:48:33.:48:40.

children. So I will invest as leader of this party. I will make sure a

:48:41.:48:48.

Labour government will invest. Of course it is about investment in

:48:49.:48:53.

manufacturing industry, in social infrastructure, in education. It's

:48:54.:48:58.

not setting false targets to pay off the debt or move into surplus.

:48:59.:49:03.

George Osborne find that out the hard way. His five-year plan has one

:49:04.:49:09.

consistent theme to it, it is always five years away. The new Chancellor

:49:10.:49:13.

is not that much different Matt. This morning, the Bank of England

:49:14.:49:17.

put 60 billion more into the economy in order to try to stave off

:49:18.:49:22.

recession. You cannot cut your way to prosperity, you invest your way

:49:23.:49:27.

to prosperity. We have the lowest level of investment of any OTC

:49:28.:49:32.

country. And it's going down words. If we don't invest, we don't get the

:49:33.:49:40.

jobs or infrastructure and we decline as a society. You can do

:49:41.:49:47.

everything as a service economy alone. I have to see this. We have

:49:48.:49:50.

made mistakes ourselves. In the last general election, we were not an

:49:51.:49:52.

anti-austerity party. We were proposing to continue with the

:49:53.:49:54.

public sector wage freeze and continue with some level of cuts in

:49:55.:49:58.

public services. We have changed and developed our policies and a much

:49:59.:50:07.

better way. I want us to go further down the road of investment and

:50:08.:50:10.

create jobs and investment for all. Not cuts and allow these grotesque

:50:11.:50:15.

levels of inequality in our society to continue. I fundamentally agree

:50:16.:50:21.

with Jeremy about that. But Jeremy, in order to do it, we have to win in

:50:22.:50:28.

Cardiff North, we have to win in Nuneaton, we have to win in Milton

:50:29.:50:33.

Keynes, we have to win in Kingswood, we have to win 100 seats from the

:50:34.:50:38.

Tories. We have to get Tories and Greens and liberals to vote Labour.

:50:39.:50:45.

At the moment, they are not going to do that. All of the evidence shows

:50:46.:50:53.

us we are likely to be at 22%. I am not satisfied or complacent. Winning

:50:54.:50:59.

in Bristol, London and other parts of the country, it is great, but we

:51:00.:51:05.

were 18 seats down in the local elections. Ukip in the assembly.

:51:06.:51:14.

Hang the Tories in Scotland. This is not progress. We're going backwards,

:51:15.:51:25.

my friend, back words. Thank you. We have been having some audience

:51:26.:51:29.

participation. This is the next topic. What are your views on the

:51:30.:51:37.

renewal of Trident? I voted against the renewal of Trident.

:51:38.:51:51.

In fairness to yourself, we will start again for the timing. Please

:51:52.:52:02.

keep your applause. Let's start again. I voted against the renewal

:52:03.:52:08.

of Trident because I want to live in a nuclear free world. Parliament was

:52:09.:52:13.

invited to vote for a blank cheque to the government for a renewal of

:52:14.:52:17.

Trident with no financial costing behind it. The points I made were

:52:18.:52:21.

simply this. It was a Labour government that developed the

:52:22.:52:27.

nuclear treaty in the 1960s. Article six requires the declared nuclear

:52:28.:52:30.

weapons states, of which Britain is one, to take steps towards nuclear

:52:31.:52:39.

disarmament. Renewal of Trident is going in the opposite direction. I

:52:40.:52:41.

want to be in a Labour government that fulfils or obligations and does

:52:42.:52:46.

everything it can to encourage other areas of the world to become nuclear

:52:47.:52:51.

free zones, which has worked and been very effective. And carry out

:52:52.:52:58.

our obligations under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. I

:52:59.:53:09.

appreciate you keeping applause until the end. Owen Smith, where do

:53:10.:53:14.

you stand? My great political hero is Aneurin Bevan. I agree with him.

:53:15.:53:23.

I'm in favour of a world without nuclear weapons. I'm in favour of a

:53:24.:53:28.

Labour Party of being in the vanguard of looking for multilateral

:53:29.:53:32.

nuclear disarmament. All weapons should be got rid of. If I sincerely

:53:33.:53:39.

believe that I would assist multilateral disarmament, everybody

:53:40.:53:41.

getting rid of their nuclear weapons, by Di vesting ourselves of

:53:42.:53:48.

ours first, I would do it tomorrow. It is a start! But I believe the

:53:49.:53:54.

world has become a more volatile place. Russia is more dangerous

:53:55.:53:59.

power than it used to be. My view on this is clear. We must retain a

:54:00.:54:05.

nuclear deterrent in order to enable the multilateral disarmament of the

:54:06.:54:11.

entire world's Arsenal. That is the unfortunate terrible truth. Jeremy

:54:12.:54:16.

and I disagree about that. This is an emotive topic. It would be good

:54:17.:54:23.

to have a good discussion on it. Does it make us vulnerable if we

:54:24.:54:29.

don't have a nuclear deterrent? 197 countries in the world do not have

:54:30.:54:33.

nuclear weapons. There are five declared nuclear weapon states.

:54:34.:54:38.

Additionally, nuclear weapons are held by India, Pakistan, Israel and

:54:39.:54:42.

North Korea. The six party talks hopefully will help to bring about

:54:43.:54:47.

some kind of security on the Korean peninsula and pressure from China

:54:48.:54:52.

would help to do that. Promotion of a Middle East weapons of mass

:54:53.:54:55.

destruction zone would help to bring Israel and Iran eventually, we are a

:54:56.:55:00.

long way off, but bring them to the principle of that. I simply say

:55:01.:55:05.

this. If we spend all this money on replacing the Trident nuclear

:55:06.:55:08.

missile system, what is the message we are giving to the rest of the

:55:09.:55:15.

world? Would it not be better if we redoubled our efforts of the nuclear

:55:16.:55:18.

Non-Proliferation Treaty, encourage other nations to go in the same

:55:19.:55:23.

direction, but also asked ourselves the question, under what

:55:24.:55:26.

circumstances would you use it? Secondly, are we aware that it is

:55:27.:55:31.

the ultimate weapon of mass destruction that indiscriminately

:55:32.:55:34.

kills very large numbers of civilians? And the security issues

:55:35.:55:40.

that face this planet at the present time are any of those security

:55:41.:55:43.

issues actually going to be solved by the use of nuclear weapons? Or

:55:44.:55:48.

are they going to be solved by political action, by political

:55:49.:55:52.

dialogue, by promotion of human rights, justice and democracy in

:55:53.:55:55.

every single part of the world and of a foreign policy that puts that

:55:56.:56:06.

is the headline figure, rather than...

:56:07.:56:12.

We are all aware of the appalling consequences of any country in the

:56:13.:56:19.

world using nuclear weapons. That is why we should all want to get rid of

:56:20.:56:23.

all nuclear weapons. The only point where Jeremy Hunt I disagree is how

:56:24.:56:29.

we best achieve that. And we do disagree about this. Jeremy's view

:56:30.:56:34.

is one I held 25 years ago, which as we get rid of ours first as a

:56:35.:56:38.

gesture and we encourage the rest of the world to do likewise. But I say

:56:39.:56:46.

to you, Jeremy, I think that is unfortunately naive. I don't believe

:56:47.:56:50.

that we will encourage the rest of the world to do it. I do believe

:56:51.:56:55.

that we have appallingly allowed successive governments, multilateral

:56:56.:57:00.

disarmament to fall away from where it ought to be, at the forefront of

:57:01.:57:04.

international diplomacy and debate. We want to put it back on the table,

:57:05.:57:08.

but I think we are better able to do that if we come to that table with a

:57:09.:57:14.

bargaining chip. If we throw that bargaining chip away, we lose out

:57:15.:57:20.

the ability to ask other countries to get rid of their own weapons.

:57:21.:57:24.

What do you say to those countries who don't have nuclear weapons and

:57:25.:57:29.

don't want them, to countries like South Africa, Argentina and Brazil

:57:30.:57:33.

that have willingly given up their nuclear weapons in order to live in

:57:34.:57:38.

a safer world? They have the moral authority to do it. But surely you

:57:39.:57:42.

and I can both agree that security issues that face the world are not

:57:43.:57:46.

going to be solved by the detonation of a nuclear bomb which would kill

:57:47.:57:51.

millions, which would drive the whole world into recession and

:57:52.:57:55.

create an environmental disaster, not just in the area where the bomb

:57:56.:58:00.

went off? Listen, I have met people who were victims of nuclear testing

:58:01.:58:08.

on a Pacific island. As have I. Those people all see a nuclear

:58:09.:58:12.

weapon is totally indiscriminate. These were innocent fishermen living

:58:13.:58:16.

on islands in the Pacific who are now suffering terminal cancers as a

:58:17.:58:22.

result of those tests all those years ago. None of us are going to

:58:23.:58:31.

argue how awful these things are. South Africa is a great example.

:58:32.:58:35.

They got rid of their weapons unilaterally. The rest of the world

:58:36.:58:42.

did not disarm. And we are not South Africa. We are one of the permanent

:58:43.:58:45.

five members of the Security Council, one of the great powers in

:58:46.:58:50.

the world in security terms and for us to powerfully go into the debate

:58:51.:58:57.

with other countries and push for multilateral nonproliferation and

:58:58.:59:00.

disarmament, I think we need to be able to say to those countries,

:59:01.:59:06.

look, we are progressively disarming ourselves, but we need to have a

:59:07.:59:10.

powerful argument to make. We have got ours and we will get rid of them

:59:11.:59:14.

in exchange for there is. It is a basic fact of bartering or

:59:15.:59:19.

negotiating. You used to be a trade union negotiator. You should

:59:20.:59:25.

understand you after power going a negotiation. I understand that. I

:59:26.:59:28.

think that is what we should be doing in order to get rid of the

:59:29.:59:30.

entire world's Arsenal. When I have attended nuclear

:59:31.:59:45.

Non-Proliferation Treaty conferences and humanitarian against war

:59:46.:59:48.

conferences, the countries that come there are from all over the world

:59:49.:59:52.

and they are interested in living in a nuclear free world. Yes, they

:59:53.:59:57.

listen to some extent what we are saying and what Russia and the USA

:59:58.:00:01.

and China and France are saying, but they list of file -- listen far more

:00:02.:00:09.

intently to South Africa about how they can practically bring about

:00:10.:00:15.

cut-off, how you can bring about an end to the testing at any level of

:00:16.:00:20.

nuclear weapons and how you can seriously bring about a nuclear free

:00:21.:00:25.

world. They say why if your country is so keen on bringing about a

:00:26.:00:29.

nuclear free country about to spend a very large sum of money, let's say

:00:30.:00:34.

a hundred billionths, on a replacement of Trident, they say why

:00:35.:00:39.

argue doing it when you have so much to give to the world of your human

:00:40.:00:42.

rights tradition and your democratic traditions. -- let's say ?100

:00:43.:00:46.

billion. Up Lawes. -- up Lawes. I do not agree with you, I do not

:00:47.:01:08.

think that Russia and America lives more carefully to South Africa in

:01:09.:01:12.

respect to South Africa than they do to us, I do not think that is right.

:01:13.:01:18.

I think this is an IDS district position and one we should aspire

:01:19.:01:22.

to, but I do not think it is showing leadership for us. -- this is a

:01:23.:01:36.

sensible position. Onto the issue of immigration and this comes from

:01:37.:01:40.

Charlie Mason in Pembrokeshire. I am sure both of you condemn xenophobia

:01:41.:01:46.

and racism as much as you promote immigration, but do you recognise

:01:47.:01:51.

that areas in the UK feel an easy about immigration and if so what

:01:52.:01:56.

would you do to reduce this unease? I will start that with Owen Smith.

:01:57.:02:02.

The first thing I won't do is do watch Theresa May did, Trail racist

:02:03.:02:07.

ad vans around the country in order to whip up hatred and intolerance

:02:08.:02:12.

and division and I will not do what Nigel Farage did which is stand in

:02:13.:02:17.

front of those racist posters. It has been heartbreaking in recent

:02:18.:02:21.

months, especially during the Brexit campaign to see racism and

:02:22.:02:29.

intolerance emerged in Britain, but we have too acknowledged that there

:02:30.:02:33.

are pressures that immigration brings and we have two deal with

:02:34.:02:37.

them and we deal with them through investment. There are pressures on

:02:38.:02:42.

doctors and hospitals and schools waiting lists, all of those things

:02:43.:02:47.

or effect it. If we invest through a British new Deal, we would mitigate

:02:48.:02:51.

many of those new pressures and people would be easier in this

:02:52.:02:56.

country. Thank you, Owen Smith. APPLAUSE

:02:57.:03:06.

Do you recognise the unease? I do and I do recognise the need for

:03:07.:03:11.

funding in areas where there are problems, school places, health

:03:12.:03:14.

facilities and housing through the Clemente should of a migrant impact

:03:15.:03:19.

fund which this government has abolished and it was set up by the

:03:20.:03:22.

last Labour government and refused to access the EU funds that could

:03:23.:03:26.

deal with those issues and I think it is important we do that. Secondly

:03:27.:03:31.

recognise we do live in a multicultural society and all of us

:03:32.:03:36.

have benefited from the brilliance of people who have made their homes

:03:37.:03:41.

here and made a contribution to our society and help to run our

:03:42.:03:47.

universities and science industry and schools and NHS. Fund these

:03:48.:03:54.

areas, but turn against any kind of racist trolling within our society.

:03:55.:04:04.

APPLAUSE You are agreed in some kind of fund,

:04:05.:04:12.

but what about controlling migration numbers. We have to have an honest

:04:13.:04:19.

look at this issue and an honest conversation with the British

:04:20.:04:22.

people. Many people in the referendum both were concerned about

:04:23.:04:26.

immigration, we know that from the polling. For us in labour the first

:04:27.:04:32.

thing we have to do is say our values are those of tolerance and

:04:33.:04:37.

solidarity and we are an immigrant nation. My family come from England

:04:38.:04:42.

and Spain, my wife's family come from India and Scotland. This part

:04:43.:04:46.

of the world where we are standing here today is made up of immigrants.

:04:47.:04:53.

We have to be proud about the mixed heritage of our country and

:04:54.:04:56.

truthfully if we were not going through the worst recession we have

:04:57.:05:01.

seen in generations, if we were not deemed a Tory government cutting

:05:02.:05:03.

back through austerity and all of the service that all our communities

:05:04.:05:11.

rely upon, if we were investing properly, then we would not see this

:05:12.:05:16.

intolerance. That means crucially we have to be in power. I say it again,

:05:17.:05:22.

all of this comes back to labour being in power and we are not in

:05:23.:05:30.

power! APPLAUSE The question I asked was do we need

:05:31.:05:36.

to control immigration numbers? We have seen the Tories play a losing

:05:37.:05:41.

game of setting targets. I will not turn around and say let's have a

:05:42.:05:45.

finite target for immigration because we know it does not work.

:05:46.:05:52.

You missed those targets, many parts of our country require integration.

:05:53.:05:57.

The nurses in the hospital, over the road is the Heath Hospital in

:05:58.:06:01.

Cardiff, it is full of foreign nurses. We need to control the level

:06:02.:06:09.

of it? In some areas of the country it does cause problems and our job

:06:10.:06:13.

is to form a government in order to mitigate the problem is, it is not

:06:14.:06:18.

our job to inflame pressures and divisions. Control or no control? I

:06:19.:06:24.

have just said we should not be setting a finite number. We are

:06:25.:06:28.

about to leave the EU and that will not solve the problems, we should be

:06:29.:06:32.

in Europe fighting for everybody across Europe. APPLAUSE

:06:33.:06:39.

Should we be controlling our borders? Non-European migration is

:06:40.:06:45.

very strictly controlled, often very unfairly particularly in the case of

:06:46.:06:50.

Family Reunion when arbitrary levels of income are demanded, that needs

:06:51.:06:57.

to be looked at and change. In the case of European migration if we are

:06:58.:07:04.

part of space even call -- if we are part of the single market then with

:07:05.:07:08.

that comes free movement of labour. I want to demand the signing of the

:07:09.:07:13.

postal workers directive to prevent the importation of a whole workforce

:07:14.:07:18.

to undercut a workforce that is already here in this country and

:07:19.:07:22.

destroy the wages and conditions in that particular industry and I have

:07:23.:07:26.

raised this with colleagues all across Europe. The British

:07:27.:07:29.

government said it would sign the posting of workers directive.

:07:30.:07:36.

Bringing quality across Europe would have a big impact on that. We have

:07:37.:07:40.

to recognise that without migrant workers we would not have the health

:07:41.:07:45.

service we have got, the education service we have got many other

:07:46.:07:50.

things. When Nigel Farage in the referendum campaign produced that

:07:51.:07:52.

utterly disgusting poster which showed a group of desperate people,

:07:53.:07:58.

in that desperate group of people there were doctors, engineers,

:07:59.:08:03.

nurses, scientists, farmers, people fleeing from a war and he says they

:08:04.:08:08.

are the threat. Surely we can have a hand of humanity rather than a hand

:08:09.:08:17.

of abuse. APPLAUSE So to summarise, is that a yes or

:08:18.:08:29.

no, is it a halfway house? There is control of non-European migration.

:08:30.:08:33.

There is busy control of that. The European migration within a single

:08:34.:08:37.

market there has to be a harmonising condition, there has to be

:08:38.:08:41.

preventing of the undercutting wages, that will reduce the flow.

:08:42.:08:45.

There are 2 million British people who live in other parts of Europe,

:08:46.:08:48.

they worked there and contribute there and they want to stay there

:08:49.:08:52.

just as much as the European nationalists who made their homes

:08:53.:08:55.

here want to stay here I think they should. APPLAUSE

:08:56.:09:04.

Owen Smith. I just want to say have you seen what Theresa May has done

:09:05.:09:09.

with refugees in respect of this country. On the first day she took

:09:10.:09:18.

office she scrapped the post of Minister for refugees. On her second

:09:19.:09:22.

day in office she reintroduced child detentions of child refugees in this

:09:23.:09:26.

country. That is what the Tories will do and it should be a sanitary

:09:27.:09:31.

reminder to us that unless we are able to form a Labour government we

:09:32.:09:35.

have to sit by and watch this happening. We have to sit back and

:09:36.:09:40.

watch them fan the flames of hatred and division. That cannot be allowed

:09:41.:09:47.

to continue. We have to get to the prospect of a Labour government as

:09:48.:09:57.

soon as possible. APPLAUSE Do you want to summarise your

:09:58.:10:02.

response and then we will move on? The issues of refugees is a huge

:10:03.:10:06.

run, there are more displaced people than at any time in recorded history

:10:07.:10:11.

at any time on this planet and the idea you consulted by building

:10:12.:10:15.

barbed wire between Greece Macedonia and think the problem will go away

:10:16.:10:19.

and then be concerned when you see people dying in the sea, children

:10:20.:10:24.

dying in the sea, any more than the horror of the camps in Calais and

:10:25.:10:29.

Dunkirk which I visited. So let's have a humanitarian and human rights

:10:30.:10:33.

bonds which is about giving immediate help and response and

:10:34.:10:37.

thank Italy and Greece for what they have done and redouble our efforts

:10:38.:10:42.

to bring about a political settlement in Syria so those

:10:43.:10:45.

refugees can actually return home. APPLAUSE

:10:46.:10:54.

This question comes from Thomas Burke in Birmingham. Jeremy Corbyn I

:10:55.:11:00.

will ask you to begin on this one. What will you do to combat

:11:01.:11:06.

anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and all those whose rhetoric

:11:07.:11:10.

legitimises anti-Semitism? Anti-Semitism is totally wrong and

:11:11.:11:15.

unacceptable in any form or place in society. It has no place whatsoever

:11:16.:11:20.

in the Labour Party. APPLAUSE When I became leader there were

:11:21.:11:24.

allegations made and a number of people have then and have then

:11:25.:11:30.

suspended from party membership so investigations can take place into

:11:31.:11:34.

what they are alleged to have done or alleged to have said. I appointed

:11:35.:11:42.

the spokesperson of liberty to make an enquiry into this. She produced a

:11:43.:11:47.

report and it was put to the national executive and there are a

:11:48.:11:50.

number of rule changes that are put in there. She also said that in

:11:51.:11:54.

addition to sanctions against anyone who commits any racist act they

:11:55.:12:01.

should be an education and inclusion process within our party.

:12:02.:12:04.

Anti-Semitism is simply totally wrong and not acceptable. APPLAUSE

:12:05.:12:15.

Owen Smith. Anti-Semitism is one of the most pernicious forms of

:12:16.:12:20.

prejudice for all sorts of reasons that we fully understand. It has

:12:21.:12:26.

been absolutely appalling to see our party, the Labour Party, the Labour

:12:27.:12:32.

Party! With anti-Semitism in our ranks. It has been absolutely

:12:33.:12:36.

disgraceful. I am very clear about this. If I were the leader of the

:12:37.:12:41.

Labour Party I would have zero tolerance for it. Zero. Anyone found

:12:42.:12:49.

with anti-Semitism abuse would be out of our party and they would not

:12:50.:12:55.

be coming back. No short-term measures, no short-term suspensions,

:12:56.:12:58.

they would be out and never come back again. CHEERING

:12:59.:13:09.

Do you want to respond to that? Every case must be investigated.

:13:10.:13:16.

Yes. Every case must be investigated as indeed should any form of racism

:13:17.:13:21.

whatsoever within our party or within our society. That is exactly

:13:22.:13:25.

what we are doing and that is what the party position is and that is

:13:26.:13:30.

exactly what I hope the rule book will reflect to ensure there is a

:13:31.:13:34.

Jude process of incontrovertible investigation of every case and I

:13:35.:13:39.

agree with Erin, where a case is proved against somebody, then of

:13:40.:13:42.

course they do not have a place within the party. -- with Owen. I am

:13:43.:13:53.

very clear about this. Of course all cases have to be investigated, but

:13:54.:13:57.

we have been too slow. We have been too slow to look into this and we

:13:58.:14:01.

have been too slow to acknowledge we have a problem in the movement. It

:14:02.:14:06.

is in the Labour Party we have a problem with anti-Semitism and this

:14:07.:14:10.

should make us all ashamed. Everybody in this room should be

:14:11.:14:14.

ashamed that in the Labour Party we are talking about dealing with

:14:15.:14:19.

anti-Semitism. I ask you this, Jeremy, how has this happened? How

:14:20.:14:23.

has this happened over the last nine months? BOOING

:14:24.:14:32.

Many people in the movement are worried about their communities, but

:14:33.:14:35.

I do not think we have done enough to stamp it out, I don't think we

:14:36.:14:40.

have been strong enough and collectively I do not think our

:14:41.:14:42.

leadership has been strong and after. APPLAUSE

:14:43.:14:52.

I have made my position on this absolutely clear, that is why I want

:14:53.:14:58.

an enquiry done into it. Many of the cases we investigated actually

:14:59.:15:01.

predate my leadership by quite a long way. APPLAUSE

:15:02.:15:08.

I want action to be taken on it, I want our party to be a welcoming

:15:09.:15:13.

place for everybody what ever their faith, their ethnic group, whatever

:15:14.:15:16.

their community, that is surely what the strength of our party is about.

:15:17.:15:22.

19 people have been suspended from membership and investigations are

:15:23.:15:27.

ongoing, rule changes are coming forward to ensure there is a proper

:15:28.:15:32.

independently monitored form of investigation that goes on within

:15:33.:15:36.

the party. You and I at salute you agree that racism has no place

:15:37.:15:42.

whatsoever in our society or in our party. -- absolutely agree. How

:15:43.:15:49.

would you respond to the criticism that it is political point scoring

:15:50.:15:55.

as opposed to anything out? I have been in the Labour Party for 30

:15:56.:16:00.

years, I knew remembering the last nine months a discussion about

:16:01.:16:03.

anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. BOOING

:16:04.:16:16.

That is the truth! APPLAUSE I do not blame you Jeremy only.

:16:17.:16:22.

Excuse me, can we have quiet please. This room is a indicator of this at

:16:23.:16:32.

the moment, this room is not behaving in a comradely manner.

:16:33.:16:38.

People feel intimidated and that there is an abusive dialogue between

:16:39.:16:41.

different wings of the party, we have to heal the Labour Party, we

:16:42.:16:46.

have to unite the Labour Party otherwise we will never win, we will

:16:47.:16:51.

be split and we will lose. The Tories and those people who are

:16:52.:16:54.

racist in this country will benefit. APPLAUSE

:16:55.:17:00.

BOOING We will leave that there. This may

:17:01.:17:06.

well be the final question of this evening. This comes from Helen Evans

:17:07.:17:12.

in Oxford, what are your plans for ensuring the UK's third female Prime

:17:13.:17:16.

Minister is labour and not conservative? Owen Smith. I'm

:17:17.:17:24.

incredibly proud of the fact that the Labour Party has a far better

:17:25.:17:28.

record on promoting women within our ranks than any other party. 40% of

:17:29.:17:35.

our MPs are women right now, it is 20% in the Tory party. They may have

:17:36.:17:40.

a first lady, but they always put women last and that is the truth.

:17:41.:17:46.

Here in Wales, we are ahead of the curve. Here in Wales we have

:17:47.:17:51.

committed to having 50% of our councillors as women, I want to go

:17:52.:17:56.

further, I think 50% of our MPs should be women. APPLAUSE

:17:57.:18:03.

50% of the Shadow Cabinet should be women, at least 50% and we should

:18:04.:18:09.

have at least 50% of the top job in the Cabinet, the big offices of

:18:10.:18:14.

state, they should be women as well. There are more than enough women in

:18:15.:18:18.

the Labour Party to fill those roles to look like the country. Jeremy

:18:19.:18:24.

Corbyn, what are your plans to ensure the third Prime Minister that

:18:25.:18:30.

is a woman is a Labour Party Prime Minister? Promoting all women short

:18:31.:18:37.

lists is to make sure we get the parity of representation in

:18:38.:18:40.

parliament as well as at council level and also driving down the

:18:41.:18:45.

gender pay gap and discrimination against women in our society as a

:18:46.:18:47.

way APPLAUSE Of promoting women. I would also say

:18:48.:18:53.

that when I was elected leader, the first time I was appointed to the

:18:54.:19:01.

Shadow Cabinet -- I was appointing the Shadow Cabinet, 50% of those

:19:02.:19:05.

were women and it will remain so. There have been concerns raised

:19:06.:19:11.

about misogyny in the Labour Party, does it concern you? It does concern

:19:12.:19:17.

me if there is an suddenly of any level in society and obviously in

:19:18.:19:22.

our party. That is one of a number of issues we will address about the

:19:23.:19:26.

conduct of the Labour Party, the organisation and its meetings and

:19:27.:19:30.

the way in which we organise ourselves which sometimes makes it

:19:31.:19:34.

very difficult for women to be as involved as they would want to be

:19:35.:19:39.

and should be within the party, our campaign methods, presentational

:19:40.:19:41.

methods and a large number of other things. We need to strengthen the

:19:42.:19:45.

role of women in the party at every level and that I am determined to

:19:46.:19:51.

do. APPLAUSE I agree with all of that, we are in

:19:52.:19:56.

labour have been standard-bearers for feminism and women for a long

:19:57.:20:05.

time and we stand out in society. There are just five of the top FTSE

:20:06.:20:10.

100 companies that has a woman as Chief Executive, there is a 20% pay

:20:11.:20:15.

gap between the money owned by women and the money earned by men. I look

:20:16.:20:19.

at my children, two boys and a girl and I think how on earth is it

:20:20.:20:24.

morally justifiable, is it economic to sustainable for my daughter to

:20:25.:20:32.

have the prospects that they could be earning less than a fifth and all

:20:33.:20:38.

of my sons? We have to change that, we have to show we are better than

:20:39.:20:42.

the rest and we have to show that we are better than the rest. I am proud

:20:43.:20:46.

that in Wales where we have had difficulties with all women short

:20:47.:20:51.

lists, I was at the heart of some of those and we have turned it around.

:20:52.:20:56.

The assembly, the Labour group at the assembly is a beacon of hope for

:20:57.:21:01.

women. I did ask Jeremy Corbyn about... APPLAUSE

:21:02.:21:09.

About concerns about misogyny, there have been some concerns about your

:21:10.:21:14.

use of language in recent weeks, how can you convince us that you are in

:21:15.:21:18.

favour of promoting women when that sort of language is used? If I am

:21:19.:21:24.

the leader of this party then I am pledging to this party that I would

:21:25.:21:28.

promote women and I would use all women short lists and we had 50% of

:21:29.:21:33.

the Parliamentary Labour Party. I would guarantee that at least half

:21:34.:21:37.

of my Shadow Cabinet and the top jobs in my Shadow Cabinet, at least

:21:38.:21:42.

half would be women and I would fight daily for women as I have

:21:43.:21:47.

done. 80% of the cuts under austerity, in particular the tax

:21:48.:21:54.

credit cuts, that we overturned on women, most of the cuts to disabled

:21:55.:22:04.

women have fallen on women. I would fight it day in day out if I would

:22:05.:22:14.

the leader of this party. Oh in's figure is correct that 80% of the

:22:15.:22:18.

cuts fall disproportionately on women and after the first Tory

:22:19.:22:22.

budget we did an analysis of the effects of the budget on women and

:22:23.:22:27.

it is devastating. It is terrible what has happened. That is practical

:22:28.:22:32.

work in opposition to show that. We also have to drive down the gender

:22:33.:22:36.

pay gap, but also end the idea that certain jobs and professions are

:22:37.:22:42.

reserved for what gender and not for the other. -- one gender. I

:22:43.:22:46.

organised a very interesting event in parliament in the summer which

:22:47.:22:51.

was of women engineers, we invited them to Parliament. I talked to some

:22:52.:22:55.

of the older women who had studied engineering 20 or 30 years ago and

:22:56.:23:00.

they said how lonely it was at college and university when they

:23:01.:23:04.

said they wanted to be an engineer. They said I want to be an engineer,

:23:05.:23:08.

my mother taught me all of this, she loved science. You have to start at

:23:09.:23:15.

the beginning in schools. You have to make sure nothing is barred to

:23:16.:23:23.

the girls. Deal with the issue of gender pay and inequality and deal

:23:24.:23:27.

with the issues of glass ceilings and dissemination that go with it.

:23:28.:23:32.

It is not just about women in the boardroom, women in the parliament

:23:33.:23:36.

all women councillors, it is also about day-to-day life, the way women

:23:37.:23:40.

lose out on career opportunities because they have taken a year or

:23:41.:23:44.

two off to have children in their 30s and suddenly find all the career

:23:45.:23:49.

opportunities they thought were there have suddenly disappeared. We

:23:50.:23:53.

need tough legislation to prevent that happening and in companies we

:23:54.:23:58.

need to end the social network of early evening discussion groups

:23:59.:24:03.

where aspirin candidates in different positions in companies

:24:04.:24:07.

come together. Who are not better, younger women who are looking after

:24:08.:24:10.

their children, the men should also be at home looking after their

:24:11.:24:19.

children. APPLAUSE Again Jeremy and I are at one on

:24:20.:24:24.

this. We have to end maternity discrimination and end the gender

:24:25.:24:31.

pay gap. Barbara Castle put through the original equal pay act. A great

:24:32.:24:36.

beacon for women in this country, but we need another equal pay act.

:24:37.:24:42.

We need to use legislation in parliament in order to narrow that

:24:43.:24:47.

gap. We need to change the laws of this country in order to outlaw

:24:48.:24:51.

discrimination against women and to do that we have to be in government!

:24:52.:24:55.

CHEERING APPLAUSE

:24:56.:25:03.

I am not happy with as being out of government. We have to win, Jeremy,

:25:04.:25:07.

we cannot just talk about it, we have to change it! Owen, I thought

:25:08.:25:15.

we were moving into an area of agreement there. I'm sure you will

:25:16.:25:20.

agree with this. To you in greed the most instructive Shadow Cabinet

:25:21.:25:23.

meeting we had was when we went to Dagenham and we had the women

:25:24.:25:27.

strikers from Ford's in Dagenham who had themselves one equal pay. It was

:25:28.:25:32.

an object lesson to all of us and it was a great meeting. I am sure you

:25:33.:25:37.

will agree with me. I agree with you, great women. Time for one more,

:25:38.:25:48.

keep this as brief as possible. This comes from Caffe Hopkins in Cardiff.

:25:49.:25:52.

How does the Labour Party re-engage voters in Wales? Three engaging

:25:53.:25:58.

voters by investment in public services, by investment in housing,

:25:59.:26:04.

health, but above all investment in job opportunities. Recognising the

:26:05.:26:06.

good work done by the government of Wales in dealing with issues of

:26:07.:26:11.

homelessness in dealing with issues of ending the internal market within

:26:12.:26:15.

the NHS, helping children through school with breakfast clubs, many

:26:16.:26:20.

other practical ways of support. Not punishing the people of Wales and

:26:21.:26:23.

underfunding the government of Wales which is what this government is

:26:24.:26:28.

doing. Also ensuring that being the structural investment from the EU

:26:29.:26:32.

that is lost is replaced by the UK Government so we do get the South

:26:33.:26:37.

East wales metro. I would like to see the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth

:26:38.:26:49.

rail link reopened. APPLAUSE Let's hear it for Carmarthen! I

:26:50.:26:54.

would like to have a Labour government in Westminster to work

:26:55.:26:57.

with our brilliant Labour government in Wales! If we had that we could

:26:58.:27:02.

say as I want to say let's give Welsh workers the biggest boost in

:27:03.:27:07.

their wages that we have seen in a generation. Let's have a proper

:27:08.:27:11.

living wage, eight and 25 an hour, tomorrow, by having a Labour

:27:12.:27:22.

government. -- ?8 25 an hour. Every year our budget has been cut and

:27:23.:27:27.

they have forced us to make cuts within our public services. The

:27:28.:27:32.

secret to doing all of that is a Labour government in Westminster. --

:27:33.:27:39.

two I'm doing all of that. That is how we help Wales! CHEERING

:27:40.:27:53.

I will ask you on both this. What is proper funding in Wales? It would be

:27:54.:27:58.

sufficient to maintain the services needed in Wales, recognition of the

:27:59.:28:02.

levels of poverty in many of the valley towns and recognise the

:28:03.:28:06.

effects of 30 years of deindustrialisation ever since the

:28:07.:28:09.

end of the mining industry after the miners strike in Wales. It is also

:28:10.:28:14.

about investment in keeping industries such as the preparedness

:28:15.:28:19.

of government to intervene to make sure that Port Talbot stays open, to

:28:20.:28:23.

make sure we have a steel industry in Wales and the preparedness to

:28:24.:28:29.

take a public stake in it. It has to be fair funding across the whole of

:28:30.:28:33.

the UK and the transport infrastructure in Wales is a massive

:28:34.:28:37.

one, I complement the Welsh government on what it has tried to

:28:38.:28:41.

do, but quite honestly it is ridiculous that it is very difficult

:28:42.:28:45.

to travel other than by car from north to south Wales because of the

:28:46.:28:50.

inadequacy of the roads and the inadequacy of the rail system that

:28:51.:28:52.

simply does not connect one part of the country to the other.

:28:53.:28:59.

What is proper funding, can you give us something? I'd interest an extra

:29:00.:29:07.

?10 billion in infrastructure in Wales over Parliament. We would get

:29:08.:29:13.

our fair share of that ?200 billion new deal. I'd invest an extra ?1

:29:14.:29:17.

billion a year in Wales in resource funding for Wales getting their fair

:29:18.:29:22.

share of the ?20 billion of extra taxes I've been lurking on the

:29:23.:29:29.

wealthiest in this country. -- I would be levering on the wealthiest

:29:30.:29:34.

in this country. It would allow the Welsh government to increase

:29:35.:29:39.

spending on the NHS by 4% in every year of the next parliament, it

:29:40.:29:42.

would allow Wales to surpass the European averages for spending on

:29:43.:29:47.

the NHS. Not fall below as we are doing now, but to do all of that

:29:48.:29:53.

we've got to be a Labour government. Carolyn Jones needs a Labour

:29:54.:29:57.

government at both ends of the M4. -- Carwyn Jones. That's how we end

:29:58.:30:05.

austerity, not by protesting, but by winning in Parliament. APPLAUSE

:30:06.:30:10.

Time has beaten us, we've run out of time for questions. Under the final

:30:11.:30:15.

bit of the evening, which is to give as your two minute closing pitchers.

:30:16.:30:20.

Why are you the man for the job? Starting with Owen Smith - minutes

:30:21.:30:25.

to explain today's audience. Thank you, Catherine. I think has been

:30:26.:30:30.

clear tonight. I see that our country is in crisis. It's a crisis

:30:31.:30:35.

that has been long in the making, and a crisis that was dramatically

:30:36.:30:40.

compounded by that terrible vote on June 23. We've seen wages collapse,

:30:41.:30:45.

we've seen job security collapse, we've seen the grossest levels of

:30:46.:30:50.

inequality in this country has seen in a century. Our NHS is crumbling,

:30:51.:30:56.

Labour's legacy across Britain is being wiped out in this crisis. At

:30:57.:31:02.

the same time, the Labour Party, when we are at our most needed in

:31:03.:31:08.

Britain, is in crisis ourselves. Divided, divided and in danger of

:31:09.:31:16.

being defeated. So, the answer, my friends, is a Labour government that

:31:17.:31:21.

is ready to govern once more. A powerful, strong opposition to the

:31:22.:31:26.

Tories. A radical, credible Labour government in waiting, ready to

:31:27.:31:30.

implement a massive investment programme, ready to be

:31:31.:31:33.

industrialised many parts of Britain, ready to give us the

:31:34.:31:38.

biggest boost to wages, a proper living wage, proper pensions for our

:31:39.:31:44.

hardest working people in public services and the private sector.

:31:45.:31:48.

What we need is nothing less than the most radical, practical,

:31:49.:31:54.

socialist programme for government that we've seen since 1945. I am

:31:55.:32:00.

clear about that, that's the scale of the challenge we face and that

:32:01.:32:03.

the scale of the challenge we must set ourselves. If you put your faith

:32:04.:32:10.

in me, if you elect me as leader of the Labour Party, then I will

:32:11.:32:13.

deliver that. I will fight for and deliver the most radical programme

:32:14.:32:18.

we've seen in this country since the great Labour government of 1945. I

:32:19.:32:24.

promise you I will deliver that, I will unite our party around it, and

:32:25.:32:28.

I will take us back to government. APPLAUSE

:32:29.:32:37.

Thank you. They'll be plenty of time for applause later. Can I now ask

:32:38.:33:03.

Jeremy Corbyn to sum up you have two minute. Thank you very much and

:33:04.:33:06.

thank you for being here at this hustings, you've been brilliant. We

:33:07.:33:10.

can win a general election, and we've been winning elections all

:33:11.:33:15.

this year. We won four Parliamentary by-elections, three with a big swing

:33:16.:33:19.

to Labour. We won four male role contests. We lost the general

:33:20.:33:26.

election in 2015. -- four male role elections. It was a sad day. We

:33:27.:33:32.

lost, I believe, because we were not offering a clear enough alternative

:33:33.:33:35.

to the British people. It's not good enough to go on the doorstep and

:33:36.:33:39.

say, we'll make less cuts than they will, we'll have austerity, but

:33:40.:33:43.

it'll be austerity light. We've got to offer something different. A year

:33:44.:33:48.

ago we were abstaining on the Welfare Reform Bill which cut ?12

:33:49.:33:52.

million from the welfare budget, we should have been opposing the bill.

:33:53.:33:59.

We've now become a party that has a clear economic alternative of

:34:00.:34:01.

something very different. So defeating the Tories on the personal

:34:02.:34:06.

independence payments, the force Academy session of schools in

:34:07.:34:10.

England, and other issues, has been something we've achieved when we've

:34:11.:34:16.

worked together. This is also brought in a lot of new members to

:34:17.:34:20.

the party. Membership has just doubled it gone from 200,000 to

:34:21.:34:25.

540,000, the biggest membership there has ever been. We're a party

:34:26.:34:32.

that is active at all levels our society and within our community.

:34:33.:34:36.

People are engaged in politics in a way they never wear before. In the

:34:37.:34:42.

last election only 47% of young people voted in that election. I

:34:43.:34:46.

regret that. They are paying the price. We are all paying the price

:34:47.:34:51.

of that. Mobilise and infuse people. We'll go a lot further and faster.

:34:52.:34:54.

The ten points I put forward this morning were about full employment

:34:55.:34:58.

and many other things. But we rebuilt to transform. No one,

:34:59.:35:05.

nowhere, is left behind. Let us have faith in ourselves, our community,

:35:06.:35:09.

our party, and our ability to deliver real social justice all

:35:10.:35:18.

across this country. APPLAUSE CHEERING

:35:19.:35:26.

Thank you all for your... CHEERING APPLAUSE

:35:27.:35:51.

Thank you all for your warm responses to both speeches to end

:35:52.:35:58.

this. Can I thank Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith for opening hustings here

:35:59.:36:02.

in Cardiff this evening. Thank you in the audience, and he went home,

:36:03.:36:06.

for sending your questions in. And for a great debate. Thank you very

:36:07.:36:12.

much. STUDIO: The conclusion of the first Labour leadership campaign

:36:13.:36:16.

hustings in which Owen Smith said the party was fractured and

:36:17.:36:22.

splintered. Jeremy Corbyn pointing out he had won by-elections and

:36:23.:36:25.

mayoral elections under his leadership. Tom Symons is in

:36:26.:36:31.

Cardiff. He was there. People getting up to leave. It was often

:36:32.:36:39.

quite sparky? It was quite sparky. It was fascinating. Two people

:36:40.:36:43.

firmly trying to hold onto their positions in this race. The first

:36:44.:36:46.

time they confronted each other at those podiums after confronting each

:36:47.:36:51.

other perhaps in the media more than anything else over the past few

:36:52.:36:54.

weeks. What struck me is how often they said they agreed with each

:36:55.:36:57.

other on policy, they really do agree with each other on many of the

:36:58.:37:01.

policies and they've both been talking policy this week. One

:37:02.:37:05.

example, both talking about an industrial strategy to pour money

:37:06.:37:09.

into the economy. There was a mantra from one side of the argument, Owen

:37:10.:37:14.

Smith. Time and time again he used phrases like this: the problem is

:37:15.:37:19.

we're not defeating the Tories, 14 points behind. 172 MPs can he said,

:37:20.:37:24.

Labour MPs, voted against you, Jeremy Corbyn. He said, we've got to

:37:25.:37:28.

get greens, Tories and Liberals to vote Labour. We've got to be in

:37:29.:37:31.

power is what he said time time again. Jeremy Corbyn stressed his

:37:32.:37:36.

victory since last general election, year. He said, for example, council

:37:37.:37:42.

seats had been won. The London mayoral elections had been won. He

:37:43.:37:46.

condemned the silly childish behaviours of some of his MPs in the

:37:47.:37:51.

Commons. He said he had built the party into a very strong force. It

:37:52.:37:57.

was really the core of this battle between a man who firmly believes he

:37:58.:38:01.

can win power as leader of the party, and a man who firmly believes

:38:02.:38:06.

he can't, and that takeover is the only way forward for the party. Owen

:38:07.:38:11.

Smith closed by saying the country is in crisis, but also the Labour

:38:12.:38:15.

Party was in crisis. He stressed his socialism. He said, we need to be

:38:16.:38:21.

radical. And he said, in power. Jeremy Corbyn said we could win a

:38:22.:38:24.

general election under the leadership of him. The reason we

:38:25.:38:27.

didn't win the last election is we weren't clear enough as an

:38:28.:38:31.

alternative. He gave the example of the Labour Party, he said, arguing

:38:32.:38:36.

for austerity light. This is number one of five hustings. It would be

:38:37.:38:39.

very interesting to see where it goes from this. There was a real

:38:40.:38:44.

battle as well over the rerunning of the EU referendum which Owen Smith

:38:45.:38:48.

saying if he was leader, if he became Prime Minister, he would

:38:49.:38:55.

rerun the EU referendum. I mean clearly Europe is a big point of

:38:56.:39:00.

conflict between these two men. Owen Smith has said that before. He has

:39:01.:39:04.

restated it today. It's a controversial view, legally quite

:39:05.:39:08.

difficult, it would go against the majority view as the referendum.

:39:09.:39:13.

Jeremy Corbyn has been on the ropes for his actions in the referendum

:39:14.:39:18.

campaign. Owen Smith trying to score points here today, trying to say he

:39:19.:39:24.

has never really been pro-EU. Jeremy Corbyn... Saint Jeremy Corbyn wanted

:39:25.:39:28.

to enact article 50 quickly, the article which effectively gets us

:39:29.:39:31.

into the endgame for leaving the European Union. That will be one for

:39:32.:39:37.

them to pour over later, when the spinning really starts around this

:39:38.:39:42.

debate. Another interesting every was the reaction Jeremy Corbyn got

:39:43.:39:43.

on the economy. He said Shadow Chancellor John

:39:44.:39:51.

McDonnell had been clear on the need to fight austerity. He said the

:39:52.:39:55.

policy didn't change until John McDonnell was appointed Shadow

:39:56.:39:58.

Chancellor. He made a point about the fact the government was backing

:39:59.:40:02.

a policy of spending money on rent, then paying people money to pay

:40:03.:40:05.

those rents through the benefit system. It got good response. He got

:40:06.:40:10.

a huge cheer when he said a very clear straightforward point, that he

:40:11.:40:13.

had voted against the renewal of Trident. Of course, quite a

:40:14.:40:19.

meaningful debate here about disarmament. The men talked about it

:40:20.:40:22.

without the cheering and shouting we'd heard through this debate. For

:40:23.:40:28.

some time. It is clear Jeremy Corbyn is the unilateralist. And Owen Smith

:40:29.:40:32.

is the multilateralist. I think they are never going to agree on that

:40:33.:40:36.

one. Tom Symons, thank you very much indeed.

:40:37.:40:52.

With us now is correspondent Richard sleeve.

:40:53.:40:53.

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