Kezia Dugdale Sunday Politics

I am joined now by the Scottish Labour leader, Kezia Dugdale. Let's

start on Manchester and the speech on foreign policy that Jeremy Corbyn

made after it. You have said it is perfectly reasonable to ask for an

open debate and to have no issues that you cannot talk about. What

gave offence was when Jeremy Corbyn said many experts have pointed to

the connections between wars our government has supported or fought

in other countries such as Libya and terrorism is here at home. It is

that implication that somehow we are to blame for what happened in

Manchester that has given such offence. Is it a sentiment you would

support or would you distance yourself from that? There is only

one person to blame and that is the terrorist, the man who decided to

strap a suicide bomb to his body at a pop concert, surrounded by

hundreds of young teenage girls trying to enjoy a music concert.

There is no excuse for that, no explaining it away, he is 100%

responsible for those actions. Jeremy Corbyn chose to use the first

day of the campaign resuming to make a speech about foreign policy... But

that statement direct to you, would you distance yourself from that? He

said many experts have pointed to the connections between wars our

governments have support or fought in other countries such as Libya and

terrorism at home. The implication that has been drawn from art is that

Jeremy Corbyn was suggesting we are responsible for what has happened. I

don't think he is saying that at all. It is very clear that Jeremy

Corbyn and I and everyone across this country recognises the only

person that is responsible for what happened in Manchester this week was

indeed that terrorist will. What Jeremy did say was that previous

decisions around foreign policy have had an impact on the growth of

terrorist organisations around the world. Most people would recognise

it has had an impact. Nobody is suggesting for a second that that is

an excuse for the incident that we have witnessed. It seems to me the

Tories are benefiting from the sentiment... Why is it not labour

that are -- people are turning to when they don't want independence.

That is what people tell me as I travel this country. I am the only

leader that has travelled from Stornoway to Lockerbie and

everywhere I go, I meet people who are worried about the instability

that a second independence referendum would cause and the

damage independence would do in the form of additional cuts. I say that

we stand firmly against independence... But it is the Tories

who are benefiting from that sentiment. You yourself have been

ambiguous in this. I do not accept that. You said on this programme but

Labour MS please should be free to campaign for independence. I have

been absolutely clear... You can be clear now. Would you like to say now

that you rather regret some of those statements you made earlier? All I

want to say to you is the same thing I have said in every interview in

this campaign. I am opposed to independence and a second

independence referendum. That is clear-cut. Because of the damage it

would make. So when you say MSPs are clear to campaign for independence,

that was you misspeaking? I have been clear. You suggested there

should be a new act of union. It does not seem to be in your

manifesto. It is not your Scottish manifesto. We are talking about a

federal solution for the United Kingdom. I am trying to tell you but

you keep interrupting me. It allows us to reject the extremes of

nationalism and the hard right wing Brexit from the Tories. What I am

saying to people is you can oppose independence but you also don't have

to accept the status quo, which is why I want to see the vast majority

of powers that are coming back to Brussels to the Scottish parliament.

The direction of travel is towards a federalised UK. I still don't

understand why your own Scottish manifesto doesn't mention the

policy. We are committed to the People's Constitutional Convention.

I am arguing for Scottish relationship with the rest of

Britain. We have not had a similar debate about devolution in England

or Wales. That is why those words aren't in the manifesto. It is very

clear that we are committed to a People's Constitutional Convention.

All those powers coming back to the Scottish Parliament and indeed

further powers from Westminster to Holyrood. I will give you an

example. Leaving the European Union means an end to the social chapter.

Maternity leave, paternity leave, the working week, they are going to

be coming back from Brussels and I would like those powers to come to

the Scottish parliament so we can make different choices from the

Tories. These are very convex issues that are not aided by a snap general

election. There is a clear commitment to the presumption of

devolution and a radical reformed United Kingdom. The SNP say they

want another referendum on independence, that it was in their

manifesto in 2016. People don't want another referendum. Are you saying

the SNP have no mandate? Are you saying they have no mandate to call

another referendum? It is the SNP who told us that the last referendum

was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Parties that win

elections get to implement what is in their manifesto. The SNP say they

have a mandate for another referendum. Are you saying they

don't have a mandate for another referendum? I think it is very clear

that after the EU referendum, Nicola Sturgeon used Brexit as her excuse

to pursue another referendum. I am asking whether you accept they have

a mandate. Once again you interrupted me. She said it was the

excuse for another independence referendum but the problem the SNP

have now is they cannot say whether Scotland gets to stay, whether we

will have two reapply. Her whole Mandeep, manifesto commitment has

fallen apart because she cannot be clear on Europe. More importantly,

the people of Scotland do not want to be dragged back to those

arguments of the past. We have to leave her behind. We were told it

was once in a generation and that should be respected. That is why I

am opposed to independence and a second independence referendum. You

still have not answered the question. Are you saying the SNP

have no mandate to call another referendum? Yes or no. I don't want

a second referendum. I know you don't. The danger you have... You

are being anti-democratic. I don't accept that. It is anti-democratic

to break the promise he made to the people of Scotland. The SNP have

three different positions on Europe but they continue to bang on about

independence. That is why so many people are angry at the SNP. Are you

just ruling it out? I haven't asked you the question yet. It is annoying

when people interrupt you, isn't it, Gordon? Will Labour MPs voted

against it? We have been very clear that we are opposed to independence

and the hypothetical situation... The Tories would have to accept that

there is good to be a referendum. We are a very far cry away from that

the reality is our job to do now is to block a referendum in Scotland

because the people of Scotland do not want it, neither do they want

independence. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell say they want to guarantee

there will be no tax hikes to middle and low earners. Why are they wrong?

I am not suggesting that they are wrong. Income tax is devolved to the

Scottish Parliament, so that is why we have a different position in the

Scottish Parliament, in the Scottish Labour Party. The tax proposals that

I put forward last year raised ?690 million. That is the amount of money

we needed to oppose further cuts to local services. Indeed addressing

things like the nurses pay gap. If you take John McDonnell 's tax

policies and apply them to Scotland, it would not generate ?690 million.

I would not be able to fulfil those commitments to be opposed to Tory

austerity and to pay for increases. Because the wealth resides in London

and the south-east. So what would your reply beta people on

middle-income is in Scotland who say, hang on a minute, we spend 16%

per person more on public spending in Scotland? Some of the evidence

you have been keen to show a base in public services are doing better in

England. Why should we have to pay more basic tax to pay for public

services which we are already spending 16% more per person on?

Because we have seen ?1.5 billion cut out of our local services. ?1.5

billion, we are seeing the stark reality. Our children are being

failed by the SNP. Let's look at this in detail. On our income tax

proposals,... The equivalent of a Coffey. I am not suggesting that is

an insignificant amount but the price of not doing that is increased

cuts to our public services. It is holding back our economy not to

invest in public services. The Scottish parliament is immensely

powerful. It has the power to make different decisions to the Tories.

Labour's argument is, if you want to invest, make sure that young

people... It is not that simple. As well as a penny on income tax?

Income tax is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. We have to do

that in Scotland to raise the money we need to stop the cuts from SNP

and the Tories. If you are in power and Labour were in power in the UK,

they would pay an extra penny on income tax and they would have a

lower threshold than the 40p rate. Plus whatever tax rises Jeremy

Corbyn decides for people earning over 80,000, plus a 50p rate over

150,000? Is what I have said correct? You have to put it into

context. There is a real choice at this election. You can reject that

programme from the Tories and you can choose Labour instead, investing

in public services and helping to grow our economy. Labour is

proposing... Is it...? It's not clear in your UK manifesto whether

you are... It is abundantly clear. We would also reform it. We are

absolutely committed to ending that gap. Kezia Dugdale, we have to leave

it there. Thank you very much. We have almost forgotten about that

because we have been