Wed, 9 Nov 2011 at 10.20pm CF99

Good evening. Welcome to the programme.

Tonight, the row over organ donation. Who should have the last word?

And the row over wearing the Wales shirt and a poppy

on the football field.

We are joined by Myrddin Edwards from the Liberal Democrats,

Dr Simon Brooks from Cardiff University

and the Reverend Aled Edwards, the chief executive of Cytun.

Wales will be the first country in the UK

to change the system on organ donation.

Well, that's what the Welsh Government wants.

Presumed consent is the key phrase.

That is to take for granted that individuals are prepared to donate

unless they state otherwise before death.

At the moment, the opposite is true.

According to the Government,

number of available organs would increase by 25% and save more lives.

Not everyone is in favour. Here's Elliw Gwawr.

At first sight, it seems quite a simple matter.

Making everybody an organ donor unless they state otherwise

would lead to more transplants. But practically, is that the reality?

And what about the moral issue?

300 people are waiting for organs in Wales every year

and one person dies a week waiting for one.

The government wants to increase the number of organs available.

But doctors will take for granted that you want to donate your organs

when you die and families will lose the legal right to refuse.

Evidence from countries like Belgium and Spain,

shows that introducing an opt-out system

can increase the number who donate organs by around 30%.

But there are many more intensive care beds in Spain

and better training for medical workers.

They say that's what leads more people to donate organs.

Surveys reveal that 90% of the population is in favour of donation,

but only 30% are on the organ donation list.

Campaigners say the introduction of an opt-out system

would better reflect the majority opinion.

According to the Archbishop of Wales, an organ should be a gift,

not an object to be considered an asset by the state.

The Health Minister he says this law will change the mindset

and lead to more discussion in families.

But the UK Government has already rejected the idea of presumed consent

saying it wouldn't necessarily increase the number of organ donations

and could be much more costly.

There is plenty to discuss.

But there is another thing.

When organs are collected in Wales,

they won't necessarily be kept in Wales.

The most suitable person in Britain will receive the organs,

not only people in Wales.

Is it a good or bad thing? I'll let you decide.

Elliw Gwawr talking to herself. Could be a bad sign.

Aled, do you agree with your Archbishop?

I understand what he's saying and he's expressing a strong element

in the Christian faith and other faiths.

I feel you have to consider this seriously for ethical reasons.

What worries me is the number of people who are dying

because organs are not available to them.

I have questions about the white paper,

I feel I would need certainty about the rights of families.

I would also want certainty about people seriously understanding

that they have to do this and knowing their choices.

I personally would tend to sway towards agreeing with the Government

as long as there is security over those elements.

That family question is interesting because it did seem a few months ago

that a family would have the absolute right to say no.

But things now seem more vague. Does that bother you?

That does bother me.

The multi-faith forum discussed this some weeks ago

and what we conveyed to the First Minister

was that maybe the closest relative to the person who has died

should have some authority.

We were debating the ethics of it.

Church leaders say this is the individual's right to give a gift to society.

There was a very interesting stance from the medical profession

said that it should be considered society's gift to the individual.

That is a very interesting discussion.

Simon Brooks, let's look at the figures for Wales.

One person dies a week waiting for an organ,

300 people on the list at any one time.

Anything that increases hope for people is a good thing, isn't it?

It will save lives, we have to be honest about that.

Whether it is right to do this is a different matter.

It raises very complex questions.

If the family does not have the right to stop it from happening,

and if the individual doesn't do this before their death,

what you are talking about is nationalising dead bodies.

The minister has explained this week

that the family will have some kind of veto.

She says a doctor wouldn't go against the wishes of the family.

I would argue that has to be put in statute by legislature.

We have to understand our history in Europe in the 20th century.

People are nervous about the state having too much power.

Not because of the intentions of the Welsh Government now

but because of what could happen in the future.

It could be a slippery slope.

Deciding the state has a right to an individual's organ

without his or her consent is a big step.

Myrddin Edwards, perhaps we're reading too much into

the denial of family rights.

The Minister is saying we cannot imagine a situation

where a doctor would say no to the family.

But you could have a situation where there is disagreement

between members of the family or where the closest relative

is a distant relative and barely knows the deceased.

The minister is pointing to some extreme circumstances

when saying they can't give an absolute promise.

When this came out on Tuesday morning,

I heard Lesley Griffiths saying on the radio

that a family wouldn't have the final answer.

But then Carwyn Jones said

the families you have to be taken into account.

So it is not a clear message.

But we have to make sure we know exactly what the law is.

I don't think doctors will go against the wishes of the family

but I agree with this opt-out idea.

I don't think it is about nationalising people's organs.

What we have to do now is tell people this is happening.

Belgium have the same system since 1986

and only 2% of the population has opted out.

Having said that, double the amount of organs

are donated in Belgium at the moment.

This idea is only being introduced in Wales,

but those organs will be available to patients outside Wales.

But that could lead to pressure on the system in Wales.

Would they be pushing to get lots of organs?

Doesn't this show Wales is leading the way with this opt-out system?

Maybe Scotland and England will introduce the same thing?

There's also debate over organs staying in Wales or going elsewhere.

Whoever is on top of the list and whoever has the greatest need

will get the organ.

Going back to the Archbishop of Wales,

who said organ donation is a gift, not a right,

he does have quite a powerful point there.

This is not a duty.

No, that is right but if you have a serious need

and if you can prove that, the argument changes.

It is a great interference by the state to do this,

and if we do it we have to have strong rules and regulations.

You are not talking about cutting tax on plastic bags.

That discussion is quite basic.

This is a fundamental discussion.

They are dead bodies and I accept that.

But even then, the individual has a right with regard to his own body.

Giving the power to the state...

But people can opt out.

That's right, that is the individual's decision.

There is a lack of information for our citizens.

We're aware of this huge rift.

Going back to the figures, if 30% of the people are on the list now,

and 80% are in favour, it shows that we are lazy

and we need to boost the numbers on that list.

It is the fact that it will save the lives

which makes this such a difficult moral question.

There are other ways of increasing the number of people who donate organs.

Maybe we could have a box on the census.

What about raising awareness?

You can tick a box on your driving licence

to say you want to donate organs.

They can but should it be compulsory?

I would rather it be compulsory and people get a specific choice.

Then you are forced to make a choice.

It's right for the state to ask you to make your choice,

but I don't want the state to take these steps without

getting consent in the first place.

A lot of people don't really understand what the Government does.

There is a consultation period going on at the moment

and we are telling people about the opt-out system.

They do good work.

One line you cannot cross in this situation,

is that if you have a man, a parent, or a woman,

who says I am not sure

what the person I have lost wanted,

that right to say no has to be absolute.

It is important the family has the

right in the end, but if they haven't opted out,

it showed they wanted to donate their organs.

Political independence is a subject that is often discussed.

But recently, our independence as a footballing nation

has been a topic of discussion.

That's because Gareth Bale and Aaron Ramsey

have been photographed in Team GB Olympic football shirts.

Here's Carl Roberts.

There's been lot of discussion since two of Wales most famous footballers

had their photos taken wearing shirts promoting the British team.

Who will be the next Welshman to wear the shirt?

It is me, but I don't think I will be selected.

Seeing Gareth Bale and Aaron Ramsey wearing

the shirt has angered Wales fans and the Football Association of Wales.

On the field, there is no doubting their ability,

but they can expect a protest from Welsh fans who are worried

that releasing players to the British team

will threaten our independence as a football nation.

Here Football Association of Wales and those in Scotland and N. Ireland

are worried about endangering their status on an international level

despite FIFA's promises.

I haven't seen the evidence the Football Association of Wales has.

If FIFA get rid of the FAW, they will also have to get rid of the FA

in England. I don't think there is any evidence of that.

It is a special chance for the best players in Wales.

Do you trust Sepp Blatter with the future of the Welsh football team?

This is an excuse on their behalf to try and create a consensus,

to support this British team.

But this threatens Wales's independence in my view.

I think it's sad that this has turned political

but my focus is on the football.

This is the football fans' shirt.

The players' shirt is expected to be launched in the New Year.

But the question is whether Welsh players should wear it.

Karl Roberts in his shirt. I'll start with chopper, Aled Edwards.

Chopper is your nickname when he plays for, who?

-The Welsh Cricket Club in Treforest every Thursday.

-An amazing team.

Would you wear the shirt?

I'd rather someone take my teeth out without anaesthetic.

I believe that the Olympic Association has insulted Wales

and its fans in an awful way.

If any organisation who received Lottery money

had acted in the same manner, then that wouldn't have happened.

There is a moral question here as well.

If they treat us like this,

how are they treating those making the shirts in poor countries.

We'll discuss that later.

Explain to us why you think that this endangers the FAW?

I believe that Bethan has made that point.

We have argued about the poppy,

do we make sure that those in FIFA protect our game in the future?

They can change their minds tomorrow.

There is no certainty in the world that we would get that.

This is what the fans are saying. Why should we lose our game?

We have been supporting it for years to get tickets

and shirts for something as corporate as the Olympic Association.

Myrddin, I take it you don't play football

nor have an exotic nickname.

Do you share this pain?

It's not something that keeps me awake at night

but the Olympics come to Britain once in 50 years?

If we have a chance for some of our best players to take part

every 50 years, this doesn't worry me much.

I worry about independence.

Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England as an FA in itself.

I think that I trust FIFA that they will have independence

to play in the World Cup.

But from a football point of view,

I don't really understand why football is in the Olympics at all.

It's not an important tournament, they are all young players.

For me, the Olympics are games that don't get much attention

the rest of the year.

I agree with that.

Rugby is not in the Olympics but you have the Rugby World Cup.

You have a FIFA World Cup.

If we get this confirmation that Wales will play as a nation,

I agree. Let's put these players on an international level.

Simon Brooks, what's happened is that the players' sponsors, Adidas,

has said that this is a photo shoot.

They've told the players to wear the shirt and they'll take photos.

Perhaps the players hadn't realised.

I think that this is a marketing strategy.

There is emphasis on football in the Olympic games

because football is the game of the people in Britain.

That is why there is emphasis on football in the London Olympics.

It draws people in. That's important.

Having a British team is a novelty.

It's different. You can create an efficient marketing campaign.

I agree with Aled, anomaly in the international football world

is that the game in Britain has more than one team.

Other countries see this as a throwback to the British Empire

when the Britons can do whatever they wanted.