Browse content similar to 14/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Hello and welcome to a live edition of CF99. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:21 | |
Who will be the new leader of Plaid Cymru | 0:00:21 | 0:00:24 | |
and to which direction will he or she take the party? | 0:00:24 | 0:00:28 | |
Are you keen to claim the best seats in the Grand Theatre | 0:00:28 | 0:00:33 | |
in Swansea tomorrow night? | 0:00:33 | 0:00:35 | |
The main attraction, Paul Silk and his Commission | 0:00:35 | 0:00:39 | |
on devolution in Wales. But what kind of a show will it be? | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
If you want to join in tonight on Twitter, | 0:00:42 | 0:00:47 | |
you are welcome to do so by using #CF99 as usual. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:50 | |
We are joined by the Treasurer of Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Trystan, | 0:00:50 | 0:00:55 | |
Professor Richard Wyn Jones from Cardiff University | 0:00:55 | 0:01:02 | |
and the Tory MP, Guto Bebb, who is in our studio in Westminster. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:07 | |
-Good evening to you all. -Welcome. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:09 | |
After 12 years as leader, | 0:01:09 | 0:01:11 | |
Ieuan Wyn Jones will step down as party leader tomorrow. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:15 | |
His years in the job has been exciting | 0:01:15 | 0:01:17 | |
and very controversial for the party. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
He lead his party to government for the first time | 0:01:20 | 0:01:24 | |
but also faced his party's worst election results since devolution. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:28 | |
Since May last year, Plaid Cymru have fewer AMs than the Tories. | 0:01:28 | 0:01:32 | |
A challenge therefore of for the new leader. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
Tomorrow, we'll find out who has won. Here's James Williams. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:40 | |
When Spring comes, it brings with it hope. | 0:01:45 | 0:01:49 | |
After a disappointing period in the elections for Plaid Cymru, | 0:01:49 | 0:01:54 | |
the race to succeed Ieuan Wyn Jones is about to come to an end. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
It has been an honour for me to do this job | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
and to play a part in the establishment and development | 0:02:00 | 0:02:05 | |
of the first Assembly that Wales has seen in six centuries. | 0:02:05 | 0:02:10 | |
No-one could have asked for more than that. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:14 | |
By tomorrow, one of these will lead the party after a long campaign. | 0:02:14 | 0:02:20 | |
Whoever will win, Plaid Cymru has a great deal of ground to gain | 0:02:28 | 0:02:33 | |
after giving up its status as the second biggest party in the Assembly | 0:02:33 | 0:02:37 | |
to the Tories last year. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:38 | |
We have had a disappointing year | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
and we have had a lot of time to think about that. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:45 | |
We had Eurful ap Gwilym's review and the party was united | 0:02:45 | 0:02:50 | |
in accepting the report's recommendations. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:55 | |
We have a chance now with a new leader to take this forward | 0:02:55 | 0:03:00 | |
and look at how to modernise as a party | 0:03:00 | 0:03:04 | |
and connect with people. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:06 | |
I think that our report which included 95 recommendations. | 0:03:06 | 0:03:12 | |
We have to turn the recommendations into a plan with priorities. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:18 | |
We have to act on those and that is a big challenge. | 0:03:18 | 0:03:21 | |
It will take at least two years and give them the right priorities. | 0:03:21 | 0:03:26 | |
I hope that the new leader will lead that work. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:30 | |
We have set out clear recommendations. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
Two months before the next election, | 0:03:33 | 0:03:35 | |
it's the every day issues that worry the electors. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
Four years ago, the party increased its number of councillors | 0:03:38 | 0:03:43 | |
even though they lost control of Gwynedd Council. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
So, how important is May's election result? | 0:03:47 | 0:03:49 | |
Local elections are very important to any party. | 0:03:49 | 0:03:54 | |
It shows us what people think of our policies | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
and it's a chance for us to talk to the voters | 0:03:58 | 0:04:01 | |
and see how they respond to our ideas to move the party forward. | 0:04:01 | 0:04:05 | |
We have good ideas for the people of Wales. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
What are the prospects for the future of Plaid Cymru? | 0:04:08 | 0:04:14 | |
May's election result | 0:04:14 | 0:04:15 | |
will give us an idea of the political climate that is to come. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:20 | |
Richard, the first test for any politician | 0:04:20 | 0:04:26 | |
is his political track record. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
For Ieuan Wyn Jones, is was a slow deterioration, wasn't it? | 0:04:28 | 0:04:32 | |
But it was a constant deterioration during his leadership. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:36 | |
There is a truth in the fact that every political career | 0:04:36 | 0:04:40 | |
ends in failure. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:42 | |
It's not often that a politician leaves on a high. | 0:04:42 | 0:04:47 | |
If we are being unkind | 0:04:47 | 0:04:49 | |
and focusing on the result of the last election | 0:04:49 | 0:04:55 | |
But to be fair, you have to look at the journey of the party | 0:04:55 | 0:05:00 | |
during that period and try and discuss it. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:05 | |
In policy terms, there are gains in Plaid Cymru's agenda. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
Last year's referendum was the pinnacle of that. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:14 | |
But the test is in 1992, Dafydd Wigley was leader | 0:05:14 | 0:05:19 | |
and the election results were really good. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
The party has weakened greatly since then. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:29 | |
I don't deny that. You have three elements here. | 0:05:29 | 0:05:34 | |
Policy, entering into government, which is very important. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:41 | |
Thirdly, you have the votes. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
If you concentrate on that, that story is correct. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:49 | |
I agree that he is leaving on a very disappointing notes | 0:05:49 | 0:05:55 | |
but if we were fair, I think the record is better. | 0:05:55 | 0:06:00 | |
So, Dafydd Trystan, is there a need for a change in direction? | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
Is the party at a crossroads here | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
or do we need continuation with the new leader? | 0:06:05 | 0:06:09 | |
We need both. | 0:06:09 | 0:06:13 | |
We definitely need a continuation on the political success | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
that the party has had over the past decade under Ieuan. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
That has been clear. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:23 | |
What is a challenge now and what was in the report that I co-wrote | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
is that views of Welsh voters has moved towards the party. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:34 | |
But the party has not increased the number of votes. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
That is the challenge for the party. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:42 | |
The new leader will face a challenge within a few weeks | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
and I would say that there will be losses. | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
Perhaps there will be some victories but the blow | 0:06:48 | 0:06:54 | |
that was against Labour four years ago, is not going to happen. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:59 | |
Labour will gain ground | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
because of Plaid Cymru. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
It's clear that Labour across Britain is flourishing | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
compared to 2008. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
So, that gives a challenging time for us in the local elections. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:17 | |
What's clear is that the battles are won and lost on local ground. | 0:07:17 | 0:07:22 | |
There are strong campaigns across Cardiff and beyond | 0:07:22 | 0:07:27 | |
where the party are hoping to win seats. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:30 | |
Guto Bebb, perhaps the irony of Plaid Cymru | 0:07:30 | 0:07:35 | |
is that they have made the other parties of Wales more Welsh. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:41 | |
As a result they have lost their USP? | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
I don't think that is the success of the party | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
but more a success of devolution. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
Some could argue that Plaid Cymru was responsible or devolution. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
I don't think that's true. | 0:07:57 | 0:07:59 | |
I don't think you can attribute the Welshness to Plaid Cymru, | 0:07:59 | 0:08:07 | |
I think it's more to do with the other parties acknowledging | 0:08:07 | 0:08:12 | |
the importance of politics in Wales now. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:15 | |
Personally, I believe that the recent period for Plaid Cymru | 0:08:15 | 0:08:19 | |
has been an interesting one but not a success. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:24 | |
People have been comparing the success of Plaid Cymru | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
under Ieuan Wyn Jones and the SNP under Alex Salmond. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
Richard Wyn Jones, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:33 | |
is there a real choice between the three candidates or are they similar? | 0:08:33 | 0:08:38 | |
It can be divided into two groups. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
Two in one group and one in the other. | 0:08:41 | 0:08:45 | |
If Plaid Cymru chooses Dafydd Elis-Thomas, they will have problems | 0:08:45 | 0:08:49 | |
within the party in regards to local elections. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:52 | |
If you look at the party in terms of elective members, | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
party staff and ordinary members, he hasn't got much support | 0:08:56 | 0:09:00 | |
among elective members. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:02 | |
He hasn't got much support from those working for the party. | 0:09:02 | 0:09:09 | |
They have big problems. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
He isn't here tonight but he said that he had a good campaign. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:18 | |
I'm not saying that. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
I think that he wants to go into government with Labour. | 0:09:21 | 0:09:25 | |
That's the USP. The two others are more similar. | 0:09:25 | 0:09:30 | |
The two women are going to move to the centre. | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
Everyone who's running a campaign to become a party leader | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
is playing to the prejudices of the members. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
The two will move towards independence. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
They talk a lot about the economy. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
Guto, does one of the three scare you? | 0:09:48 | 0:09:52 | |
Not at all but I have great respect for all three. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:59 | |
Elin Jones is a good minister. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
Leanne Wood is a very charismatic character. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
I have a lot of time for Leanne. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
She used to share a platform with me against the euro. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
The old fox, Dafydd Elis-Thomas | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
is someone who I have great respect for. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
Dafydd Elis-Thomas has gained the support | 0:10:15 | 0:10:19 | |
of many Plaid Cymru council leader. He has support within the party too. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
I think that electing Dafydd Elis-Thomas | 0:10:23 | 0:10:28 | |
would lead to problems within the party. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
I think that Leanne would give people a real chance | 0:10:31 | 0:10:35 | |
for those who argue that the Welsh Tory Party | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
has a chance to take advantage on the party's decision | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
to turn to the left. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:43 | |
She is a good minister, she is not a good communicator. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:47 | |
I think that she would find it difficult to be a party leader. | 0:10:47 | 0:10:53 | |
I disagree with those comments. | 0:10:53 | 0:10:57 | |
Dafydd has set out his intellectual strengths during his campaign. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:03 | |
No-one denies how clear and strong has been | 0:11:03 | 0:11:08 | |
on a series of subjects even some that was unpopular with members. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:12 | |
Leanne is inspirational and is going to be a crucial part of the team. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:17 | |
Elin's character and perseverance moving within the party | 0:11:17 | 0:11:21 | |
is a great combination. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
Can I ask a question to you Dafydd? | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
No-one can predict who will win tomorrow | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
but one people has lost during this campaign. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:33 | |
That person is Adam Price. | 0:11:33 | 0:11:36 | |
A number of people has reacted to the second intervention | 0:11:36 | 0:11:40 | |
by saying, who is this man preaching from Harvard? | 0:11:40 | 0:11:45 | |
It hasn't been the best campaign for Adam. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:50 | |
I think that it's a good sign about Leanne's leadership or Elin | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
that neither dabbled with that kind of politics. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:57 | |
Dafydd hasn't either. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:01 | |
It as if he has come from afar | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
and doesn't reflect what was happening among members. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:08 | |
Richard, you have been very critical | 0:12:08 | 0:12:11 | |
of this stepping forward by the party. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:17 | |
You talk of a need for a practical ideal. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:21 | |
What should come first? | 0:12:21 | 0:12:24 | |
The talk about the constitution | 0:12:24 | 0:12:27 | |
and the long-term strategy or the economy and jobs? | 0:12:27 | 0:12:31 | |
I think that the constitutional agenda is going ahead. | 0:12:33 | 0:12:38 | |
The party could refer to that | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
and could push it to different directions. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:44 | |
They don't have to do a lot there. | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
The challenge for Plaid Cymru | 0:12:47 | 0:12:49 | |
is to find a way of challenging Carwyn Jones. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
It appears to me that the Welsh Government gets its own way. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
The opposition isn't very effective. | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
The whole negative statistics are coming out daily. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:04 | |
Plaid Cymru isn't relevant to that discussion. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:13:09 | 0:13:10 | |
If you fancy a night out in Swansea tomorrow night, | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
free tickets are available for a special show at the Grand Theatre. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:16 | |
Remember to wear your anorak because the cast are members | 0:13:16 | 0:13:19 | |
of the commission on devolution, Paul Silk and his crew. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:23 | |
The plot is deep, discussing the financial accountability | 0:13:23 | 0:13:28 | |
for Wales, financial loans and tax-raising powers. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:33 | |
You should be applauding there! | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
Elliw Gwawr has been asking what's likely to come | 0:13:35 | 0:13:37 | |
out of the commission. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:40 | |
The work of shedding some light on the financial future of Wales | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
has begun since October. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
The work has been done behind closed doors. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:49 | |
The Silk Commission wants to attract a wider audience. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
It's here at the Grand Theatre in Swansea | 0:13:52 | 0:13:56 | |
that the Silk Commission will hold its first public meeting. | 0:13:56 | 0:14:00 | |
They have already collected written evidence from politicians, | 0:14:00 | 0:14:05 | |
academics and Welsh organisations. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
But they now want to see what the public | 0:14:08 | 0:14:10 | |
think about the financial future of Wales. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:13 | |
But how easy will that be? | 0:14:13 | 0:14:14 | |
There are enough seats still left for this event. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:18 | |
The meeting won't be held in the theatre itself | 0:14:18 | 0:14:23 | |
but with only 12 registered to attend so far, | 0:14:23 | 0:14:25 | |
are they doing enough to attract the public? | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
It's the first in a series of public meetings. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:33 | |
We have made it clear that people don't have to register | 0:14:33 | 0:14:37 | |
can come on the night. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:40 | |
I think that some will. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:43 | |
The most important thing is that those who attend | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
contribute to the discussion and ask questions and put their view across. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:52 | |
After this first meeting, the show will tour Wales with events | 0:14:52 | 0:14:57 | |
being organised from official sessions to coffee mornings. | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
But do they need to be more creative to attract the public? | 0:15:02 | 0:15:06 | |
We were criticised for the night in Port Talbot | 0:15:06 | 0:15:10 | |
but I think it was a very successful night. | 0:15:10 | 0:15:13 | |
We learnt how not to do things and how to do other things | 0:15:13 | 0:15:18 | |
but in terms of getting close to people, | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
and talking to them in their own communities, it was very beneficial. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:26 | |
We found that people were willing to come to us on their own terms. | 0:15:26 | 0:15:31 | |
We'll discover what people really think | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
when the commission reports back on its initial findings in October. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:38 | |
Guto Bebb, what's the opinion in Westminster and among MPs in general? | 0:15:39 | 0:15:45 | |
Do they look at the Senedd in Cardiff as a place that has power, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:50 | |
with regard to raising money, but no accountability? | 0:15:50 | 0:15:56 | |
I think there is some truth in that. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
Several Labour and Conservative members attended a meeting | 0:15:59 | 0:16:03 | |
with Paul Silk and his team last week. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:06 | |
I think most of the Welsh members were there, to be honest. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
There's a feeling, and I've said this myself in the chamber | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
when we've had a discussion on these plans to look at the constitution, | 0:16:13 | 0:16:18 | |
that there is a question about the Assembly's financial accountability. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
If the Assembly is responsible for spending £15 billion, | 0:16:21 | 0:16:24 | |
maybe it should be responsible for raising some of that money in Wales. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:29 | |
I think that's healthy | 0:16:29 | 0:16:31 | |
because it shows people how important the Assembly is. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:34 | |
At the moment, we're in the middle of county council campaigns | 0:16:34 | 0:16:38 | |
and in my constituency, we're campaigning on the fact | 0:16:38 | 0:16:40 | |
that the coalition under the leadership of Plaid Cymru | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
has increased council tax. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:45 | |
If councillors and councils are financially accountable, | 0:16:45 | 0:16:48 | |
I think it's impossible to argue the Assembly shouldn't be as well. | 0:16:48 | 0:16:52 | |
Earlier, Richard mentioned the GDP figures we saw yesterday. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:57 | |
Some parts of Wales are poorer than Romania. | 0:16:57 | 0:17:00 | |
The difference between wealth in Wales and wealth in London | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
compared to comparisons within other countries is frightening. | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
Giving this place any significant tax raising powers | 0:17:07 | 0:17:12 | |
would be very difficult, considering the state of Wales' economy. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:16 | |
I would argue that it's vital that this place | 0:17:16 | 0:17:19 | |
does have tax raising powers because it would ensure | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
that the Welsh Government is accountable | 0:17:22 | 0:17:24 | |
for Wales' economic performance. | 0:17:24 | 0:17:26 | |
If we're serious about developing the Welsh economy, | 0:17:26 | 0:17:30 | |
we have to have the power to vary corporation tax, for example, | 0:17:30 | 0:17:34 | |
here in Wales. | 0:17:34 | 0:17:35 | |
I would hope that every party would support that. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:39 | |
If we had that accountability, voters would know | 0:17:39 | 0:17:43 | |
that if they vote for a useless government, | 0:17:43 | 0:17:46 | |
like we have at the moment, it'll affect their public services. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:50 | |
But let's be honest, those taxes would have to go through the roof. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:54 | |
No, because in any sensible devolved system, | 0:17:54 | 0:17:57 | |
there are transfers from different parts. | 0:17:57 | 0:18:00 | |
That's what will happen, that's what happens now. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:04 | |
That's what happens in any country | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
where there is a devolved system of budgeting. | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
That's what's on the table in Scotland, with Calman, | 0:18:10 | 0:18:13 | |
and that's what I would expect to happen in Wales. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
But Richard, Carwyn Jones is suggesting taxes | 0:18:15 | 0:18:19 | |
which aren't unimportant, but they're not main stream taxes. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:25 | |
Paul Silk could turn around and say, | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
"This is not the time to conduct a constitutional financial experiment. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:33 | |
"Sort out the economy first." | 0:18:33 | 0:18:35 | |
I think the unionist parties | 0:18:35 | 0:18:37 | |
have created a difficult situation for themselves. | 0:18:37 | 0:18:40 | |
With regard to Scotland, they've said that the Scottish Parliament | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
has to have these powers and use them in order to be accountable. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
It's very difficult to say then, | 0:18:46 | 0:18:48 | |
"The Welsh Assembly doesn't have to be accountable." | 0:18:48 | 0:18:51 | |
I think that argument is lost before it begins. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:54 | |
The other interesting thing is the public opinion figures. | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
More figures have been released today by the Silk Commission | 0:18:57 | 0:19:01 | |
which confirm what we saw in the BBC's St David's Day poll. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:05 | |
Surprisingly, two thirds of people in Wales | 0:19:05 | 0:19:10 | |
think that the Assembly should have at least some tax raising powers. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:15 | |
Carwyn Jones, I think, is quite suspicious of that, | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
but it's interesting that the opinion of Welsh people | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
is further down the road than the Welsh Government's opinion on this. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:25 | |
Guto, do you see a possible scenario where David Cameron | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
or Nick Clegg could offer these tax raising powers | 0:19:28 | 0:19:30 | |
and Carwyn Jones could reject them or be nervous about accepting them? | 0:19:30 | 0:19:34 | |
I'm surprised to hear Richard say this is some kind of trap | 0:19:34 | 0:19:38 | |
that's been created by the unionist parties themselves. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:40 | |
I think most of the Conservative members who spoke in the debate | 0:19:40 | 0:19:44 | |
on Silk in the House of Commons said they were in favour of this change. | 0:19:44 | 0:19:48 | |
I think most Conservative AMs would agree with this change. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:52 | |
There are concerns within the Labour Party | 0:19:52 | 0:19:55 | |
but Labour isn't the only unionist party we've mentioned. | 0:19:55 | 0:19:58 | |
I think there's a possibility that the debate in Wales | 0:19:58 | 0:20:01 | |
is being influenced by what's happening in Scotland. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:04 | |
I think it's crucial that parties who believe | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
that the union between the British countries is important | 0:20:07 | 0:20:10 | |
but who also believe that we need powers in Cardiff | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
that are accountable, | 0:20:13 | 0:20:15 | |
have to move on and create a mature debate in Wales. | 0:20:15 | 0:20:17 | |
Otherwise, what will happen | 0:20:17 | 0:20:19 | |
is what happened in Scotland to Ruth Davidson. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
The Prime Minister turned up in Edinburgh | 0:20:21 | 0:20:23 | |
and completely undermined Ruth Davidson's leadership overnight. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:27 | |
I think it's important we get to grips with the agenda ourselves | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
in Wales and the Silk Commission is a part of that process, | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
but I would argue it's a starting point. | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
A very interesting admission with regard to the Prime Minister there. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:40 | |
Guto is usually very honest, but I disagree. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:44 | |
I would be very surprised | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
if most of the Conservative members across the country... | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
-I said elected members. -That's what I'm saying. | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
I think there's a big gap here between the elected members | 0:20:53 | 0:20:58 | |
and the members across the country. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
The Welsh Conservative Party has managed to ensure | 0:21:01 | 0:21:04 | |
that the membership has followed the elected members | 0:21:04 | 0:21:07 | |
in every change that's taken place. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:09 | |
In areas like Aberconwy, there was a very strong vote | 0:21:09 | 0:21:13 | |
in favour of giving the Assembly further powers | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
and that was because people like me stated that it was a change | 0:21:16 | 0:21:20 | |
that should be welcomed. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
The big question for all the unionist parties will be, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
when the Silk report is published, and looking sensibly at this, | 0:21:25 | 0:21:29 | |
if the Assembly is given tax raising powers, | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
would they, their members, the Prime Minister and everyone else | 0:21:31 | 0:21:35 | |
support a further significant development of devolution in Wales? | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
That's the challenge for the unionist parties in Wales. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
Plaid Cymru is clear that we need those responsibilities. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
But what about the point | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
that whatever happens in other places will influence this? | 0:21:47 | 0:21:51 | |
It's like the measure in Scotland as a result of Calman. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
We've almost forgotten its existence. | 0:21:55 | 0:21:58 | |
It'll have an effect | 0:21:58 | 0:22:00 | |
and what's interesting is that for the first time, | 0:22:00 | 0:22:02 | |
there's a public discussion across Britain about the constitution. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:06 | |
Usually, it's about devolution in Wales and Scotland. | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
What about Carwyn Jones' idea? | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
That there should be a constitutional commission | 0:22:11 | 0:22:17 | |
or a constitutional convention | 0:22:17 | 0:22:19 | |
to look at the constitution across Britain in order to work out | 0:22:19 | 0:22:23 | |
a system that's consistent across the country, | 0:22:23 | 0:22:26 | |
instead of one investigation in Wales, another one in Scotland | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
and something different happening with the West Lothian question. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:34 | |
Does it all need to be combined? | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
I think Carwyn is right about that. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:38 | |
I think we have a significant problem | 0:22:38 | 0:22:40 | |
because we have a big discussion about what's happening in Scotland | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
and the rest of Britain and what's happening in Wales is being ignored. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
The feelings of people in England are also being ignored | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
and they're becoming increasingly dissatisfied | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
with the devolution settlement we have. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:54 | |
I think we need to discuss how we're going to achieve | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
a constitutional settlement that puts the wishes of Welsh people | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
on the map but that also ensures that we can operate within Britain. | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
Are you surprised sometimes about the speed of the devolution process? | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
We're talking about another possible referendum, raising taxes here... | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
And also, Carwyn Jones as the leader of a party | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
that's been very conservative about the constitution traditionally, | 0:23:16 | 0:23:20 | |
but now it's saying these radical things and people just accept it. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:24 | |
It is an amazing period. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
Guto talked about this change of opinion in England | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
and I've done some research on that recently and there are big changes. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:34 | |
The problem with having some kind of commission across Britain | 0:23:34 | 0:23:38 | |
is that it would be like locking the door after the horse has bolted! | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
We've acknowledged the sovereignty of the people of Scotland and Wales. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:46 | |
They're the people who get to decide. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 | |
But isn't that a worthy ending to Ieuan Wyn Jones' leadership? | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
We have to leave it there. Thank you all very much. Our time is up. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:57 | |
That's it for tonight. | 0:23:57 | 0:23:59 | |
Thank you to our guests and don't forget to join us next Wednesday | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
when we'll be concentrating on George Osborne's red box. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:05 | |
-Until then, good night. -Good night. | 0:24:05 | 0:24:07 |