20/06/2012 CF99

Good evening and welcome to us here at CF99.

Tonight, a reduction in the unemployment figures for Wales.

But the Euro crisis is still weighing heavily.

And the Assembly Commission tells us that £500,000

is too high a price to pay for translating all this place's discussions.

Here to discuss those issues tonight are the AM for Dwyfor Meirionydd,

Lord Elis-Thomas of Plaid Cymru,

political commentator and former Conservative minister, Rod Richards,

and in our Westminster studio we have the Opposition Welsh Secretary

and MP for Llanelli, Nia Griffith.

Welcome to you all.

Three days after the Greek election, the country has a new coalition government.

Greece's serious financial problems took the attention of the leaders

of the world's largest economies this week,

as they gathered in Mexico for the G20 Summit.

Of course, the economic uncertainty and the Euro crisis

affects the Welsh economy.

And although today's unemployment figures show a slight drop in the number out of work here,

new research shows that the confidence of businesses in Wales

is lower than in the rest of the UK.

More from James Williams.

Empty shops and closed businesses.

Although this street is the old Pobol y Cwm set,

there are worries that this sight will become ever commoner in Wales

as the recession continues.

Thousands of miles away in Mexico this week,

the sun was the only thing shining as the world's leaders tried to get to grips with the Euro crisis.

What's happening over the water affects every country,

including Wales, where according to the Federation of Small Businesses,

business confidence is lower than in the rest of the UK.

And this computer company in Cardiff foresees tough times.

I think people are careful with their money at the moment.

We certainly get more people paying for work with cash now, for example,

rather than credit cards.

That's a really obvious thing.

It'll affect every business, I think.

But as long as you keep your costs under control and look for new opportunities,

you can ride it out.

The basis of this lack of confidence

is the difficulty getting money from the banks.

This bank's doors have long since closed, of course,

but the problem is that so many high street banks' doors have also closed to small businesses,

with some 40% refused credit recently.

The Chancellor is well aware of this problem,

and last week he announced a plan to inject £80 billion into the banks

so they can start lending again.

When we talk about the billions banks like RBS have lost,

and the taxpayers' money thrown in to save them,

this extra money to boost investment is only a small fraction of it.

So unfortunately, in one way the chance has been lost.

Without the money, most businesses don't want to take the chance to employ more workers.

But today's figures show the private sector across the UK

has grown more than the public sector has shrunk.

There was good news for Wales, too, with a reduction in the unemployment figures,

although the percentage of people out of work continues to be high.

If a market goes,

and there's nowhere in Britain to sell what it produces,

of course, everyone knows, it's likely the figures will go up.

It's interesting to see that Wales is exporting more

as a region or a part of the UK, than any other part.

We export more and import less,

and we also export more to the United States, to North America, than Europe,

so there's potential in Wales to build on the exporting success

to strengthen Wales as an economy.

The Welsh Government insists it is doing everything within its power to support the economy,

but admits the economic situation remains challenging,

and that the Eurozone drama contributes to the uncertainty.

James Williams's report there.

Nia, can I start with you.

There are massive problems in Greece and the rest of the Eurozone,

but there are also problems in this country.

We hear negative comments all the time about the economy.

So is there any surprise that businesses don't have much confidence?

Of course, they don't have any confidence at all

because this government in London is doing nothing to create confidence.

So although the government down in Cardiff is doing its very best

to help companies, what's happening, of course,

is that the companies are seeing that many people are losing their jobs in the public sector,

and they're seeing lots of people losing money on things like tax credits, for example,

and they see so much money going out of the Welsh economy.

And they see that the only way to help the economy grow is through exporting,

and that's not possible for every kind of company.

What worries me is the fact that very many of the jobs being created

are part time jobs,

and people want to work for the most hours available to them.

And this creates problems too, because what happens of course

is that there's less money for the family and less to spend,

and this sends the economy ever further down.

So it is hard for every business.

So what's the answer?

We've seen George Osborne saying there'll be more money for the banks,

and that he wants them then to give more money to smaller businesses.

Will that help?

Well, of course it's very important that banks are willing to lend money to companies,

this is a big problem for them.

And the Welsh Government has tried to give money to some companies

which want to expand their factories, for example,

and create more jobs.

But the fact remains that no-one's got any money to spend,

and this is a very serious problem for companies,

because they can't sell anything.

And this is very important.

So what the Chancellor should do is give money to the people who use it every day,

not by cutting tax for the rich, but by giving money to normal people,

to families, who want to spend it straight away in the community.

Rod Richards, it seems to me that the coalition came in and said they had a plan,

this was what they were going to do.

By now it seems to me that the waters are so tempestuous

that all anyone can do is react from day to day to what happens.

That's what the EU and the UK are doing,

and that's what the Welsh Government is doing.

It's as if no-one sees a clear path out of the situation.

One reason why there's no clear path out is, of course,

that things since the coalition came together two years ago...

Lots of big things have happened since then.

It is a stormy sea.

But in terms of strategy, the IMF, for example,

agrees that the coalition's policy is the right one,

and it now foresees that next year,

growth in the UK will be greater than Germany and France,

and twice that of the Eurozone.

And from that standpoint...

But we've seen some very misleading predictions about growth recently, haven't we?

Certainly, certainly, but the people who count in this world,

there's not one serious economist arguing with the original policy of the Government.

Well, to be fair, Paul Krugman, a Nobel prize winner,

has said the UK Government has gone astray.

Well, people who win Nobel prizes aren't always serious people.

Dafydd, we've heard what George Osborne wants to do in Westminster.

What can the Welsh Government do?

It doesn't have much of an armoury

to encourage growth and businesses here in Wales.

No, it doesn't in the sense that there's no way

to create a situation where the Welsh Government can lend money,

but two things can be done,

which are maintaining and developing the basis of society and the economy,

ands then investing in training and research, and on education.

And that's the priority that has been.

I think it is important that the Welsh Government looks at the moment

at how to organise young people's qualifications,

because the big problem we have,

yes, there's been a drop in unemployment,

but the level of 24% and more amongst young people

is something I think is very worrying.

-But what...

-Is there a danger of a lost generation, as we saw in the Eighties?

No, I wouldn't say that, but I think there's a risk

of failing to give people the chance to contribute,

and losing intelligent resources.

What worries me, from the beginning in this business,

is that we've had great unintelligence from the banks

in their ability to find out which sectors of the economy

there would still be a way to invest in.

For example, in my experience in the west and the north,

banks told me they weren't investing in the tourist industry.

Well, what else do you have in huge parts of the Welsh borders if you don't invest?

And there has been an increase in a different pattern of holiday in those areas.

The other thing that hasn't happened is investment in the green economy,

and I think it's very striking that we're here now,

we have the situation of the conference in Mexico,

we've got the Rio+20 Conference,

and changes will come in energy, in ensuring fuel and fuel security,

and there should be investment in the low-carbon economy,

because we have to do that for the future of creation.

We're talking now about what Wales can do,

and the truth of it is that there's not much we can change

compared to what's happening in Europe and Westminster.

But there are one or two things, for example,

our image since devolution has been unfortunate

from the point of view of attracting investment in.

Even when we had a Labour government in Westminster,

Rhodri Morgan was talking about "the red sea between us and Westminster."

-Since Cameron came in...

-It's now a blue sea.

-Since Cameron came in...

-An orange sea.

-THEY LAUGH

..this government has been behaving like an opposition,

rather than an experienced, mature government,

which is trying to co-operate with Westminster.

Let me raise that point with Nia,

because we've seen some criticism today from the UK Government,

saying that ministers in Wales are different to Scottish and Northern Irish ones,

and they don't co-operate on UK trade missions to foreign countries.

That's foolishness, isn't it, to fail to take advantage of those?

Well, there's a lot of co-operation,

if you look at what's happening with agriculture, for instance,

and the minister from Wales comes up to London,

and goes to Europe and so on, so perhaps there's one example,

and maybe we should know more and discuss what's happening.

But the thing is, the Welsh Government organises its own trips to markets,

Carwyn goes on them regularly.

But why not go on the UK ones as well?

Well, the important thing is to know why.

If there are clear, whether there are problems,

or what's happened in the past, and what can be done in future.

We're in the business - it seems all the time the Welsh Government

doesn't want to co-operate within the United Kingdom,

and that, for people who don't know us too well,

at once says a no-no to this place.

And the other matter, which is also serious in terms of our image,

is that the impression being made outside Wales

is that the unions run our schools, and the unions run our hospitals.

That is, that the unions in Wales are strong, as they were in the Seventies,

which isn't true in England.

But, Dafydd, it is very hard here in Wales.

The public sector has the largest percentage of jobs,

and we then expect the private sector to step in

and fill those jobs being lost in the public sector,

but that's not happening, is it?

It's happening to some extent,

but that's what I was trying to talk about earlier,

which is that there are sectors in the economy.

For example, there has obviously been important investment

in maintaining the steel and manufacturing industries,

manufacturing work in Wales.

There is still continuing employment in the motoring sector.

It's obviously important for us to invest in infrastructures,

and that especially means transport and electrification,

and if I may say without starting a debate once again in my own party,

we need to invest in energy, and all kinds of low-carbon energy.

Because that is certainly something we must do for the future,

because of the global commitments the UK and EU have made.

-So I think it would be a mistake...

-Would you want to run that policy yourself in Wales?

In co-operation with the Labour Party?

Well, no-one runs a policy alone.

You have to co-operate with government on all sorts of levels,

especially in the EU.

Right, there we are, we have to leave it there.

According to the Assembly Commission, spending £500,000

on translating all this place's discussions into Welsh is ill-advised.

As the Official Languages Bill reaches halfway,

it looks likely that the priority is provision of a bilingual report only for full meetings.

And it seems the parties, if not all members, agree.

The value of translating Assembly meetings

has become an old argument over the last few years.

Well, about a month ago, there was an angry response

by language campaigners and politicians to the front page of the Western Mail,

after they opened an old wound by raising questions

over the value of translating all Assembly committee meeting minutes

from English to Welsh.

And that followed a recommendation from one of the Assembly's committees,

which focuses on the Assembly's Official Languages Bill.

According to the paper, in a period of cuts,

this is a luxury we cannot afford.

But despite the committee's recommendation,

none of the parties have presented an amendment to the bill

calling on the Assembly to publish everything bilingually.

The cost would be between £400,000 and £600,000,

so it seems around half a million pounds for doing that work,

and I think in that context,

people have asked the question of whether that's a wise investment,

whether it makes the Welsh language equal,

whether it promotes the use of the Welsh language.

And the conclusion I've come to, and I think many of my fellow members have come to,

is that it does nothing to promote use of the Welsh language in this place.

But some AMs are still unhappy.

The two are part of the definition of "Assembly Proceedings,"

under the Government of Wales Act.

So I'd like to know how a commission can say

that the record of the full meeting is different from a committee meeting.

Treating languages equally

doesn't necessarily mean we do exactly the same in each language.

The important thing, for my part, is that there's a way for AMs

and the public in dealing with the Assembly

to be able to use the one language or the other according to their choice, completley naturally.

The Commission says the priority is to re-establish a competely bilingual of the full session,

and to encourage more members to use the Welsh langguage in the Assembly,

but does this set a good enough example to other establishments in Wales?

We feel the Assembly has had a poor record recently

and that needs to be addressed.

but also that the Assembly, as a body that legislates for us,

should show leadership to all establishments in Wales.

The committee will consider the improvements to the bill tomorrow,

but with the parties opposing the committee's original recommendations,

there's unlikely to be a significant change

in the system of translating committees in the near future.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas, as a former presiding officer,

this debate is quite simple really.

It's a debate between people who believe it's a matter of principle

and people who believe it's a matter of priority.

I don't understand that argument because what I was trying to do

when I was responsible for the first draft of that bill

was to ensure that Welsh and English were defined as official languages,

and then leave the details about how it would work from day to day to a language scheme,

but that some of the principles of the scheme would be in the bill.

And that's what's going to happen now.

The debate is about what should be put in the bill.

But my position is simple. It hasn't changed since I was on the Welsh Language Board over 20 years ago.

The aim of translating is to enable people to speak Welsh in meetings

and to enable other people to understand.

It's as simple as that.

This idea of wasting money

on printing large volumes in both languages...

We're not talking about the Bible. There's no great literature here.

We're not talking about the speeches of Thomas Edward Ellis here!

But the other argument is that this is a place which legislates

and expects other private companies and public bodies

to use the language and what happens here sets a precedent.

I'm the chairman of the Environment Committee and all I want...

I speak Welsh in every committee and that's my choice.

I don't understand why everyone else who can doesn't do the same.

It costs less if the person speaks Welsh.

You've saved money already

and you don't have to translate backwards and forwards.

But the important point about this is I want to make sure

I have the words to use them properly

and that the questions are clear and that everything is understood.

You don't need more than that, in my opinion.

We're creating an artificial situation,

pretending that people speak Welsh, when they don't.

I want to ensure that we spend enough money to use digital technology,

so that we can search for what's happened during the discussions electronically.

In a digital situation, you don't need to reproduce all this print in two languages.

I've argued that for years, but haven't got anywhere.

Rod, a waste of money,

or is it something that's crucial for the language?

It came as a shock to me when I read about it in the newspaper

because I thought the policy had already been established

and the money had been set aside for the policy.

So the fact they were discussing money now seemed strange to me.

But they were discussing new money and that, of course, is different

because money is scarce and cuts are being made everywhere.

So all four parties should have had some common sense, and said,

"If we vote in favour of spending this money, what we're doing

"is saying that the Welsh language, and this unnecessary translating,

"is more important than everything else that happens in the Assembly."

That would have been the message coming out of this place.

And that was the message

because there was a fierce response to it and understandably so.

This debate about cost could be used about anything.

It was used with regard to bilingual road signs

and about a Welsh language television channel.

There is a line somewhere, isn't there, where you say,

"Whatever the cost, some things are worth doing."

So you have to define what those things are.

The fact is, what we're losing is the point of doing it.

What's important to me is to decide on priorities

and then discuss who uses what

and how to encourage people to use the Welsh language more often.

It's easier for example...

It's more important to me to give people the confidence

to use the language verbally in committees, if they want to use it,

and to give people the opportunity to write a letter

to Assembly Members through the medium of Welsh

and to receive a response in the Welsh language.

It's very important because people use something.

The question here is about whether people read what's written in Welsh?

For me, as someone who's learned the language,

it's important that we have examples of good Welsh

and have the opportunity to read it and use the language

that's relevant to issues which are often very difficult.

But the fact is, if we have enough of that,

by what's going on in the full chamber for example,

maybe we don't need all the records from every committee.

What the Assembly has to decide, and it's up to the Assembly,

but it has to evaluate what use is being made

of everything it is translating.

But in the world we live in now,

the current Assembly Government has cut back its spending on health.

So you can't justify spending more money

than was already earmarked on Welsh translation.

The people outside who don't speak Welsh aren't going to accept it

and there was a fierce response.

But that argument would have been raised in the 1960s about road signs.

No. The people who were campaigning for road signs

were campaigning for a policy. You were one of them.

You were campaigning for a policy, weren't you, not money?

Once a policy is decided, the money is earmarked to go with it.

But how do you then encourage small businesses

to have Welsh signs in their shops

when the Assembly isn't willing to spend the money itself?

Yes, but the situation has changed

with regard to the amount of money that's available.

There's less money available.

The Labour Government here in Wales has cut back its spending on health,

so it's very serious.

You can't then justify spending any new money

on something like translating into Welsh.

I would go further than that.

Yes, but you have to evaluate and if policies are working...

We have to leave there.

I'm sorry, but the time has beaten us. That's all for tonight.

We'll be back at the same time next Wednesday night.

-I hope you can join us then.

-Good night.