10/06/2011 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics on Friday.

We've had the hearsay and the gossip, now we have the documentary

evidence - the project to replace Tony with Gordon.

Can the Government's work programme get a million unemployed people

back to work? We'll be asking the Employment Minister.

And figures record a huge increase in crime in the Palace of

Westminster - the mystery of the missing iPads, golf clubs and

And with me for today are the political editor of The Spectator,

James Forsyth, and chief political commentator of The Independent,

Steve Richards. Now, I'm taking delivery of a new

car today - a Volvo. But I read this morning that "Project Volvo"

was the codename of a Gordon Brown rebranding exercise, part of the

push to replace Tony Blair as Prime Minister. Umm...I might be

regretting my choice of car. The Daily Telegraph has published a

dossier of memos, apparently belonging to the current Shadow

Chancellor Ed Balls, detailing the moves against Tony Blair amongst

Gordon Brown's allies. One document, dated 19th July 2005, just two

months after the 2005 election when Ed Balls and Ed Miliband became MPs,

appears to set out the structure for a Gordon Brown leadership

challenge to Tony Blair. It mentions a "GB transition

storyline" and a "first 100 days policy plan". A small group of

attendees are mentioned, including Ed Balls, Ed Miliband and Douglas

Alexander. Another strategy document for the campaign, heavily

annotated by Ed Balls, is dated 21st July 2005 - the day of the

failed terrorist attack on London's transport system. Issues that need

to be addressed include "Who is GB?", "Lawyers - a list we can

trust", and establishing a "handling plan" for supporters.

Other memos exchanged between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown illustrate

the animosity at the top of Labour. On a letter from Mr Blair

discussing a possible transition deal, Mr Brown scribbled the words

"shallow", "inconsistent" and "muddled". In an interview last

year, Ed Balls was asked about his conduct during the Blair

premiership. Do you regret these years of

plotting and scheming to undermine Mr Blair? The thing is, this is

based upon gossip and rumour and anonymous briefings. If you had

been in politics like me or David or dead, we always get this stuff.

You did try to undermine Mr Blair. A untrue. You wanted him to go.

thought it was right... You did your best for him to go. Himself

had announced he would go. Don't tell me you didn't want him to go.

The tis very easy for you, in a quite lazy way, to repeat this

innuendo and gossip based on no substance about what people claim I

have done. It is so near. That was Ed Balls talking to Andrew during

the Labour leadership election. Joining us from Birmingham is Liam

Byrne. Are you surprised to learn that Ed Miliband and Ed Balls were

planning to replace Tony Blair with Gordon Brown as early as July 2005?

I haven't looked at the Telegraph's story. Take it from the. 2005, very

clearly, 19th July, there were documents, papers, working groups,

a whole infrastructure set up to replace Tony Blair. I think a

couple of things. Firstly, most importantly, this stuff appears to

me to be some time in the past. The relationship between Tony and

Gordon is pretty well catalogued now. From what I have made up from

what you have said to me today, these documents are about

discussions in Gordon's team that actually date from after when Tony

have said he was stepping down. In that time when Gordon, as he did,

aspire to lead the Labour Party, would have been thinking about the

leadership contest after Tony had finally steps down. You are right,

it is after the time he said he would step down, but he did say he

wanted to serve a full term of office. If you look at the

documents, and I have them here, we have lists of what people are going

to do, and these people are now operating at the top of the Labour

Party, including the leader. Do you think it was right that those

people, so pays to be working within a government under Tony

Blair, were devoting much of their time to trying to get Gordon Brown

to be Prime Minister? From what you have described, you have a group of

people talking about how Gordon would face up to a leadership

contest in the late Bish - Labour Party in the time after Tony

Blair... You think it was right that there was this infrastructure

set up while Tony Blair was still serving, detailing his weaknesses,

his failures as prime minister, people supposed to be working under

him, they were trying to get Gordon fine? I think it is an honourable

ambition to want to lead the Labour party and want to be a Labour Prime

Minister. When you confront a situation in politics where the guy

at the top has said he is stepping down, it is not very unnatural for

people behind any particular camp to start thinking about how their

guide is going to confront the leadership contest that could

decide the future Labour leader and the future Labour Prime Minister.

But this stuff is quite old now. Yes, it might be quite bold... --

old. Most of the figures are still there. Ed Balls, Ed Miliband,

Douglas Alexander, they are at the top of the current party, are you

saying it doesn't have any implications at all? What I have

learned about politics in my career in Westminster is that voters are

more interested in the future than the machinations of the past.

about the denials? Ed Balls has repeatedly denied being involved in

any insurgency. Whichever way you look at it, it was an insurgency.

Insurgency? Any project to replace penny Blair with Gordon Brown. Do

you believe him? -- Tony Blair. you don't mind me saying,

insurgency is rather a grand term for what looked like a group of

friends coming together... Liam Byrne, you are making out this was

some sort of school boy friendly group. We know it wasn't for more

of the evidence given by both sides. Are you saying it is right that Ed

Balls has denied being involved in any of that when his fingerprints

are all over it? I just think you might be putting a bit of a class

and a bit of an interpretation on what sounds like a number of

documents that are minutes of meetings about how Gordon Brown it

is going to go into a leadership contest for the leadership of the

Labour Party. The ambition and the aspiration to lead the Labour Party

and to want to be Labour prime minister and through that office

and through the force of that office to change our country for

the better is an honourable thing to want to do, surely. Did it work

in your mind? Replacing Tony Blair with Gordon Brown? Was it a

success? It is no secret that I was a strong supporter of Tony Blair,

his kind of politics were my kind of politics, I think they are good

politics, they have worked well for my constituency. But he came to his

own decision to step down at the time needed. I remember at the time

that I was sad about this because I thought he was a great prime

minister, but I also worked closely with Gordon Brown, I thought he was

a super prime minister and a superbly doer of our country at a

time when we faced one of our maximum set of dangers in the

recent past. -- Super leader. were disappointed that these

documents have come to light? The implicate the Brownite so,

particularly Ed Balls. Is this a bad thing for the Labour Party or

not? Well, I don't know, autumn and the these other things voters judge.

Voters will look at this kind of thing and think shock, horror,

documents and minutes of meetings from five years ago. For most

people, looking at the problems they have today a looking at the

way the current government is leading an -- leading us in the

wrong direction, most voters will not mind. You don't think it

affects a Ed Balls's credibility? He is a superb Shadow Chancellor.

The message he has set out over how George Osborne is cutting back too

far and too fast, the way he is leading our recovery into the slow

lane, at a time when unemployment is falling much faster... All right.

Are you surprised about the paper trail? The fact that these papers

were left on a desk in Ed Balls's department with political

annotations all over them, setting up a replacement structure? He was

supposed to be the education secretary at the time and this was

what he was spending his time doing and then he left the papers all

over his desk. With respect... would know all about that. I think

we will have to wait and see what Gus O'Donnell. Ed Balls have -- has

said they were found in his department. They were left in the

desk in his office. I just think it may be a little bit early to second

guess where these documents have come from and how they found their

way into the newspapers. Where did they come from? Who leaked them?

The interesting question is the people who benefit from this, the

people who don't want Ed Balls to be leader of the Labour Party,

those who don't like him. That leaves a certain list of candidates.

Do we have any idea who that might be? They will be on the Blairite

wing of the party, maybe recently arrived. Do you agree with that?

Talking to Liam Byrne, who is trying to say these documents are

historical and don't have much impact, that all it showed was a

fairly natural plan to succeed Tony Blair, is that how you see it?

are topical in the sense it is an operation to damage Ed Balls, and

that is clearly what it is about, it is not an attempt to have a

debate about the familiar story of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. That

is the aim of the operation. Reading them and remembering the

context of the time, 2005, 2006, when people knew Tony Blair was

going to go, I think if you reverse this and say imagine if they were

not planning for this, for urging him to go to give them space, given

that we all knew they wanted him to take over, it would be absurd. I am

genuinely not surprised... You are mentioned in one of the documents.

Did you go to one of the meetings? No. This was about the image of

Gordon Brown. It shows how precarious some of that planning

was. I can unequivocally assure you are did not go to the meetings.

Somebody said, I don't know whether you should be pleased or bewildered

or alarmed. Journalistically, on this thing, I think they are quite

interesting in revealing their thinking, the policy differences,

which were quite profound and are still underestimated, and are still

relevant as Ed Miliband tries to lead what is still quite a

fractious, divided party. In that sense they are interesting and

topical, but they are not surprising or shocking. They are

not surprising, but do they not reinforce, James Forsyth, some

people's perceptions of the divisions that existed on

personality and policy? Blairites are bitter about Tony Blair being

bundled out of the door. Gordon Brown, with indecent haste, moved

him on. He was not allowed to go at the time of his own choosing. That

is back. The other thing that is here is that Ed Balls was destroyed

in the Labour leadership campaign and in some ways he was the most

impressive candidate, but he did not get going because of his past

and he will never be able to escape that past. It will come back again

and again. Liam Byrne, do you think it was a mistake for Ed Balls to

have been involved as closely as he was in any project to succeed Tony

Blair on behalf of Gordon Brown? think Ed Balls had worked closely

for many years with Gordon and I don't think it was dishonourable or

surprising... Do you think it is bad for him now? Is this is seen as

something that will discredit him, in the end should he not have

stepped back further and not been so closely associated with what

some people will interpret as a project to get rid of Tony Blair

earlier than he wanted? I don't understand or accept the premise of

that question. Ed Balls is focused on being Shadow Chancellor and

taking the argument on the economy to George Osborne. Most voters will

think that is the right way for him to spend his time. He might never

become leader of the Labour Party. Ed Miliband is the leader of the

Labour Party and under the policy review I am leading for him, we

will put together a platform which will take us back into government

and then Ed Miliband will be the next Labour prime minister. Thank

And the Government's the work programme scheme begins today with

ministers hoping to get 1 million people off benefits and back into

work within the next two years. Chris Grayling was out and about

this morning meeting people on a scheme in West London run by a

private company, and it is mostly private companies that will operate

the scheme. How much they are paid will depend on how many people they

get back into work. There are concerns that the scheme will not

tell people in the poorest parts of the country. Contractors have large

geographical areas in which they can focus their attention. We are

worried that in areas like Wales, where there are places with a

strong economy like Cardiff, and weaker areas like Merthyr Tydfil,

then the contractors will focus their efforts on Cardiff and give

less attention to Merthyr Tydfil. That will be profitable for them

but it will not help the people that are hardest to reach. Chris

Grayling joins us now. How will it work in places where there will

effectively be less jobs, such as outside the South East? I was not

clear whether we would see a difference in those companies...

you will not if they are profit- making. Would we have as many Big

ears in the North of England, for example, and the answer was yes. --

as many bidders. So I am very confident that we will get coverage

everywhere and people will be referred everywhere and will get

into work everywhere. The providers have to take and provide support

for all of the people referred to them, regardless of where they live.

But the success of the scheme, both in terms of the Government and

getting back to work, is the economy growing and those jobs

being created and it is a gamble. The Independent Office for Budget

Responsibility is forecasting an increase in employment over the

next four years of almost 1 million, even after you take into account

the changes in the public sector. I want to make sure that we do not

make the same mistakes that previous Government made, whereby

most of the new jobs created when the economy was going well were

going to migrant workers. Most of the people on benefits in this

country stayed there and I don't want that to happen in the future.

These jobs of the people on benefits. How can you guarantee

those jobs will be spread, if not even the then relatively so across

the country? -- if not evenly. We have seen a significant increase in

the number of private sector jobs and that has been pretty evenly

spread. There has been growth in Scotland, and Wales saw a

significant improvement last month. There will be ups and downs

throughout the recovery but we are trying through the regional growth

fund to target support at the private sector in areas of the

country where there are bigger and employment challenges and whether

private sector is smaller precisely so that we see growth in the

economy and in jobs. The select committee report noted that 88% of

contracts were awarded to private firms. You have made a big deal

about the voluntary sector. They will be a very small proportion.

There are some very serious voluntary sector organisations.

They may be very serious but the number is smaller than you said.

always knew there would be few organisations in the voluntary

sector because they cannot raise capital like the private sector.

But one of the conditions was that they are assembled networks of

organisations, private sector, public sector, voluntary

organisations, small businesses, charities. We have one extreme, the

Prince's Trust, right down to a community walled garden project in

Yorkshire. So there is a lot of people involved in helping people

get back to work. One of the concerns are about the safeguards

preventing vulnerable people being pushed into in appropriate jobs.

You can put people in jobs for a certain amount of time, but then

they lose their jobs, the project stopped, and they are back on the

dole. We think this approach is very new and has not been done

anywhere else in the world. He does not just provide for people to get

into employment, it pays them in instalments. For up to two years

after they get into work, which makes sure that we have on-going

support, mentoring, people watching over their shoulders so that they

do not drop out of work. If you she won somebody in to a wrong job and

they stay for a short time, the providers do not get paid. So how

will the payment structure work? Will the safeguards be guaranteed

by you? We have a group of organisations investing �500

million. Begetters more upfront payment for the first three years

and then that this appears. -- they get the small upfront payment. They

only get payments when people have been put into the right vacancies.

It is a giant Employment Service, matching the right people to the

right jobs. That is how people will get money about this. He sounds

very upbeat, but will it work, Steve? Can I ask a question? Your

projection of the growth in employment vacancies, is that based

on the revised growth figures all the more optimistic ones? That is

the most recent figure that has come out. One thing I would say,

Steve, every day of the week we have thousands of vacancies coming

into JobCentre Plus. 1 million vacancies have passed through

JobCentre Plus in the last three weeks, but there has been a growth

in the long-term unemployed. We are really focusing this programme on

them. They're always job vacancies, but we want to get the long-term

unemployed into these jobs. I think the mechanism is fine and the

principle is a good one. I agree with the implication of the first

question, that growth is central. It is central to what the

Government is trying to do. But the scheme could fail. It looks fine on

paper, but it won't work, unless there is growth. And growth in

every part of the UK. From the point of view of the taxpayer, we

are only paying by results, when people are back into work. It is

the belief that they can sort out the problem of long-term

unemployment. If they cannot, they are the ones that lose out. You're

talking about paying by results. The risk is pushed on to the

private sector. What other areas of policy which you apply this model

to? This is a real watershed for the way that Government words. We

can look at this again, for example drug addiction, the Rehabilitation

of offenders, working with problem families to overcome the hurdles

that they face. There are obvious areas where the Government can do

much more. I hope that having got the work programme up and running

we can provide a precedent that changes the way the Government

works in many areas. Why do you think that the private providers

will be better than state providers in this case? The Government has

often tried to design programs itself, the New Deal was designed

in Whitehall, 13 weeks in a classroom. We are saying that we

don't know best. You are the professionals. You design what

works, you develop specialist support, and we will pay you went

you are successful and we will trust you to do the right thing. If

you don't, you are the ones losing money. At focuses the industry on

providing real best practice. They will chase what is most successful.

Thank you. Time to catch up the big political

stories of the last few days. The Judgment from a higher place this

week as the Archbishop of Canterbury slammed David Cameron's

big society as painfully stale. David Cameron hopes that is new and

improved plans for the NHS will calm down the critics. He has

announced significant changes. will ensure that the competition

benefits patients. Is that a U-turn or the sound of the screeching

tyres from the Justice Secretary? Ken Clarke has backed down on

controversial plans to halve the sentence for rapists if they admit

their guilt early on. The PM insisted there is plenty of fuel in

the tank of Ken Clarke. A new Mini purred down Downing Street as BMW

announced �500 million in UK car production. If you are looking for

a new vehicle, it might be better than a Volvo. The description of

Gordon Brown's image as papers reveal his plan to unseat Tony

Blair. But two had their hands on the steering wheel of that

manoeuvre? -- who? We have already discussed that. You

cannot trust anyone these days. There have been a spate of thefts

in Parliament, not just from Ed Balls's desk. Keith Vaz, himself

the victim, received a written response from John Thurso, listing

some of the items that have been stolen. They include laptops,

mobile phones and iPad. But also some unusual items, including a set

of golf clubs, a candlestick, an orchid and the cable drum. This

sounds like Cluedo. Keith Vaz joins us now. Are you surprised? I am

astonished by the number of deaths that we have had in the last few

years, but particularly by the number of thefts we have had since

January this year, 25 laptops having been stolen. And the number

that was stolen in May of this year, the month of very high security

because the President of the United States was visiting the House of

Commons. This is a large number of thefts and very few people have

been arrested the according to the information that I received in my

parliamentary question. Nobody has been prosecuted this year. What

prompted this was the fact that my research assistant's laptop and my

iPad were taken from my office. I asked whether it happened to anyone

else and part of the problem is people did not know to reported.

You wonder if it is going on and people are not reporting it.

this was a street in my constituency, such as the one I

have just visited, I would be saying that this was a very serious

crime area. I would be calling a residents' meeting demanding CCTV

cameras. And I would probably set up the Neighbourhood Watch. I have

not ruled out doing this. Are you saying that crime is worth in the

Houses of Parliament and in your constituency? -- worse. It may well

be! 25 laptops stolen in six months, it probably is. Our people nervous?

We are all very shocked. People have been cleared for security. It

is a big process. Your form is very long, you know how long it is. It

takes a while to be security cleared and you have to be a

certain type of person to get the pass to get in. We have also had a

reduction in the number of House of Commons staff. In the building that

I am in, of Scotland Yard ironically enough, they used to be

someone at reception, and that person has been removed. We have

had increased patrols in Norman Shaw North. But the week that there

is a new national crime agency announced, in Parliament itself we

have a major crime problem. cannot blame that! Are you saying

they should be more protection for property in the Houses of

Parliament? There ought to be much more rigorous and robust

surveillance of what is going on. I think it is a good idea to have

CCTV as you enter. We would like to see somebody prosecuted. So many

laptops, so many pieces of equipment in six months. We need

our best detectives on this. I know that Mr Yates is busy doing other

things. Rather than coming in and arresting MPs as they have done in

the past, they should spend their time looking for these criminals.

Is that to good use of resources? A bottle of whisky has gone, a set of

chairs, a pair of shoes. They have probably just been mislaid. It is

an eclectic collection of stuff that has gone missing. It is

bizarre. You can only get into the House of Commons by swiping your

pass. Everybody in their house that pass. As Keith Vaz said, they have

been security cleared. It is odd that they cannot find the culprits

when their past he's on the doors and you know who is in the building

at what time. It is like a mysterious crime thriller, or

comedy perhaps. I do not know what it signified. Something incidental,

or something significant. I am baffled by it. I always lose my

security pass and find it hard to get anywhere they think the

security is very tight. I am amazed that this is going on without any

resolution, frankly. The security is tight. Do you think some of this

stuff has just been mislaid by busy MPs and their staff? I don't think

so. Busy MPs do mislay things but it is difficult in his late 25

laptop computers in six months. grasped that. -- difficult to