30/06/2011 Daily Politics

Morning, folks. Welcome to The Daily Politics. I'm at work, are

you? Hundreds of thousands of public sector workers aren't.

They've taken to the streets angry over proposed changes to their

pensions and how long they'll have to work. That's the view in central

London, where the main march is about to start. It's estimated

750,000 people are taking part in industrial action across the

country. Thousands of schools are shut across England and Wales.

Government ministers had to cross picket lines in Westminster this

morning. The Government says it's still negotiating with the unions.

We'll be asking, will there be a compromise? The PM's also on a

collision course with his mates in Europe. No surprise there. The EU

is calling for an increase in it's budget. Call Me Dave's not happy.

Some people call him Red Ed, but is he actually on a mission to turn

Labour blue? Or even purple? Are you going colour blind yet?! Ed

Miliband's new policy wallah will It could end up a rainbow coalition.

I see what you did. All that in the next half hour.

With us for the duration, Labour peer, Maurice Glasman.

Welcome to the programme, the first time, I think. It is, thank you.

He's also personal guru to Ed Before we talk about strikes, let's

turn our eyes briefly to events in Europe, because the EU's talking

money again. It wants a 5% increase in its budget for the seven years

from 2014. This is at a time when national budgets across Europe are

being slashed. Not music to the ears of the Government, who called

it "completely unrealistic". The Commission is also proposing a

Europe-wide VAT levy and a re- working of the UK budget rebate. No

doubt Mr Cameron will be looking for Mrs Thatcher's au -- old

handbag. What is your view? I think the EU has lost its way, it has

become very administrative, liberal and procedural. The vision is there

and -- is not there. We have to restore proper democratic politics.

A 5% increase, for what? Do you think this government, which often

talks tough and doesn't always act tough, will it to draw what they

call the red line in Brussels, will there be much bluster and they will

walk away from it? I think this government talks tough but is

generally weak and quite confused and they will cave. That should

cheer them up in Brussels if not in the rest of the country.

Picket lines are being set up outside schools, Government

buildings, job centres and courts as thousands of public sector

workers go on strike over their pensions. The Government estimates

that up to one in five of all public sectors workers will strike

today. But who exactly is taking action? And what are they angry

With some schools closed, we thought we'd give our own lesson

this morning. You'll be surprised to hear both sides are claiming

victory in the strike today. There are four unions involved in the

action, three teaching unions and the Public and Commercial Services

Union. According to a Downing Street survey of about 75% of

schools in England, around a third will close, a third will be

partially closed and a third would be open. In Wales it's believed

around 1,000 out of 1,800 are closed. The PCS has about 250,000

members, including coastguards, police support workers, court staff

and UK border agency staff. Airports are warning of delays,

although the Government claims a "vast majority" of courts, job

centres and HM Revenue and Customs call centres would remain open. The

unions are protesting at planned changes to their pensions which

will mean having to work longer, pay more in and receive less in

retirement. The Government argues these changes are necessary because

the current schemes are unaffordable and says the plans are

fair to taxpayers and the public sector. Earlier this morning, I

spoke to Christine Blower, who's the general secretary of the NUT. I

began by asking her whether it was right to strike when negotiations

are continuing. The problem with the talks is that

the government haven't been listening to what we have been

saying. In the Hutton reports, there are no comments about the

pensions being unaffordable. The point is, the government has not

done the evaluation of the teachers' pension scheme. Secondly,

the cost of public sector pensions is set to fall. Hutton recognises

that. Yet the talks from the Government's point of view are all

about implementing what they have already put on the table. That

simply isn't satisfactory. That is why we have decided to take action,

because at last, the media is realising that what we've been

saying all along, about the pensions not going broke and not

being unsustainable, isn't -- is actually true. Aren't these points

that should be raised around the table instead of placards and

freezing central London? You saw Benny Alexander saying, this is the

bottom line, there are no negotiations about anything other

than this. If they were to take the �2.8 billion off the table, which

is what they want to put on to the public sector pension scheme, we

would have something about which we could discuss. That was our

position at the end of January when these talks started. The fact is

there has been no move on the central question of affordability.

We think it is very important that by taking this action today, we are

able to make the case for the fact that Hutton did not say public

sector pensions are unaffordable. The government can't demonstrate

that they are, because in the case of the teachers' pension scheme,

they haven't done the valuation. The how much sympathy do you think

there is for your course, particularly from people not on

public sector pensions, who have had to take a day of work to look

after their kids? Today, we are launching a petition, fair pensions

for all. We recognise that in the private sector, there are real

problems with pensions. We don't want to be in a race to the bottom.

The petition we are launching his for fair pensions across the public

sector, the private sector, and a fair state pension. Yes, we believe

we are all in this together. Rather different from George Osborne.

you disappointed in the stance of the Labour Party? There is no

shoulder to shoulder from the leadership, they have distanced

themselves from today's action. It would appear to be a backlash even

among your firmest allies. I think what Ed Miliband has said is that

this is a failure of the system and the government should have been

negotiating in good faith. That is what Andy Burnham said in the House

of Commons. Of course, there will be Labour MPs who have supported

this, I am not going to name them now. The fact is there are people

everywhere across society who support us. Even parents who are

losing money today, we have had many messages of support from them.

You are being selective about the Miliband quote. He also said

today's action was a mistake and he is taking great pains to distance

himself from it. It is his view that it is a mistake, but not my

view, and not the view of the members who are on strike today.

Because they know that by taking this action, we are exposing the

flaws in the Government's position. If you listen to Justine Greening

or Francis Maude, you will see that they can't answer the basic

questions. The basic questions are about affordability, and whether

the scheme is tenable or not. It's a choice, whether the scheme is

tenable or not. We believe we have systems in place, from the

arrangements were made in 2007, to be able to maintain the teacher

scheme as it is, albeit with a negotiation that contributions may

have to go up. But on the basis of the scheme that we negotiated in

Apologies for the pictures dropping out.

You forgot to put a shilling in the meter.

I am not that well off. We are joined by Nick deep, we hope

to be joined by the general secretary of the Fire Brigades'

Union, Matt Wrack. The government - - we are joined by the Schools

Can we clarify what areas are still open to negotiation and compromise?

Moving pension increases from the RPI index to the CPI index, which

is a tougher index, it doesn't rise by as much as the RPI, though they

both go through the roof at the moment. Is that open to

negotiation? The issues that are being discussed with the trade

unions are about how you implement these different recommendations,

recommended by Lord Hutton. There has to be an increase in

contributions, there has to be some move on the retirement age, because

people are living longer. All those issues are being discussed with the

trade unions. I understand that, so I will come back to my question. Is

the move from RPI to CPI open to negotiation or not? That decision

has been taken. It will be a move to CPI. So it is not? The decision

has been taken. By the norms of the English language as I was taught it,

that means it is not open to negotiation. I have given the

wording as I have given it. What about public sector workers, who

often don't make much of a contribution, they are now going to

make bigger ones, sometimes 3% more, is that open to negotiation? There

has to be a significant increase in the contribution all rate. If these

pensions are to be sustainable... This is what Lord Hutton said, he

said that given the scheme design, the general public cannot be sure

of the sustainability of the pension into the future.

understand that. We have heard all this before. I am trying to find

out what is still open for negotiation. I take it that

increased contributions of up to 3%, maybe more, that is not open to

negotiation. How those contributions are allocated across

the funds and between employees of different salary levels is what is

being discussed. An employee earning under �15,000 a year, we do

believe should be making any contributions increase.

principle of increased contributions of 3% or more, that

is not open to negotiation. concept of increased contributions

has to happen, if we are going to keep these pensions sustainable to

the future. We want teachers and public service staff to have good

pensions, in great contrast to many people in the public -- the private

sector who no longer have defined benefits. I know you have to get

your talking points out, but I am asking specific questions and we

haven't got much time. It would be good if you could stick to the

specific answers. Changing the retirement age, up to an extra

eight years for some people, not as much for others, a substantial rise

in the retirement age, is that open to negotiation? There does have to

be a change in the retirement age. One-third of all active members of

the teacher pension, are already at retirement age of 65. Given that

people are living significant number, it is right that people

contribute longer to the Pensions Scheme, if they are to be

sustainable. What you have just told us is that there maybe a lot

to talk about, negotiations are going on, but on the core

principles of switching from RPI to CPI, increasing contributions by 3%

or more, and changing the retirement age up to an extra eight

years, these three core principles are not open for negotiation.

they are implemented is the issue. That is not the issue, ministers. I

am saying, are they open for negotiation or not as core

principles. I think you have told your viewers that they are not.

they are implemented, the extent they are implemented, is what is

being discussed with the trade unions, this Monday for two hours,

resuming again next week. Which is why we believe that going on strike

is premature, while these negotiations are going on. I am

sorry, Minister. I can understand there are issues of process. Let's

take the idea that some people's retirement age may have to go up by

eight extra years. Is that open to negotiation? The way you put it, it

is as though somebody who is 64 will be working until they are 72.

No, I am not. There is a transitional period for all of this

and all the crude rights will be maintained. Nobody need fear that

the money they have put into their pension will change as a

consequence -- all the accrued rights. None of this will come in

before 2015, there will be plenty of time for it to be implemented.

will have one more go. Is it open to negotiation that some people in

their 50s, mainly women as I understand it, at some stage, under

the current plans, their retirement age increases by eight years. What

they had planned to retire on and what they will, under your

proposals, will change by eight years, is that open to negotiation?

How it is implemented is what is matters, that will determine the

precise retirement age of any individual, the transition period.

We have said that people can still retire at the age they were

expecting to, but there may be an actuary the adjusted figure that

applies to their pension. I believe the unions are issuing

scaremongering statements about the consequences of these reforms, and

that is what the negotiations are about. We understand the passions

teachers have for their profession, we want to maintain good-quality

pensions in the teaching profession. It is part of the overall package

for people working in the public sector, and that is what we want to

You have described what the Government is doing as vicious.

That is a 1970s word, it is doing what a Labour government would have

had to do and what a former Labour minister said had to be done.

last government did significantly changed pensions and we did not

like those. But we were told in 2006 that the changes make would

make public sector pensions affordable for the long term. That

is why we consider this vicious. Horton said affordability has to be

measured by the share of GDP going to pension liabilities -- the Lord

Hutton. This is a nonsense. Given that average public-sector pay it

in this country is higher than average pay and the private sector,

from the office of National Statistics, why should those in the

private sector with poor pensions have to pay more for those and the

public sector with good pensions? Every year, another �10 billion is

added to public spending from private sector taxes to pay for

your pension, why should you not contribute more? We want decent

pensions for everybody. This Government has created a nasty and

vicious attempt to divide people in both sectors. Most have family

members in both. I have a member of my family on strike today as a

teacher and others in the private sector, we reject this idea the

government is creating. Because they have taken it away from people

in the private sector, they want to take it away from you. It is an

outrageous and nasty attack by the government. It is not the

Conservative government that has seen private pensions slight to the

bottom, Mr Brown took 100 and -- �100 billion out of private sector

provision. I do not care who did it, it is disgraceful what happens to

workers in the private sector and I support them trying to defend their

pensions. Lord Hutton has made it clear we want good-quality pensions.

Take teachers' pensions, this year it cost �7 billion a year and by

2014 it will be 10 billion, so we need to take measures to keep these

as high quality pensions that our sustainable into the future. You

referred to the paragraph in the Hutton report saying it is 1.5% of

GDP, but he says that depends on the assumptions you use for life

expectancy, size of workforce. Every assumption and sup with less

than 1.9% of GDP last year -- ends up with. But that was before that.

It was 1.5% in 1999, we are trained to get it to a level that is

sustainable in the long term -- we are trying to. We cannot be sure it

will be sustainable in the future unless we make the recommended

reforms. It Lord Hutton was a Labour minister dealing with

pensions. I understand what he did. Maurice Glasman, you have been

patient. If this is right, a vicious attack on ordinary workers,

why does the Leader of the Labour Party say these strikes are wrong

at a time when negotiations are going on? We have not yet built up

the organisation and the support and the mobilisation, the

compelling alternative. This can be portrayed as a defence of the

status quo. Why does he not support the workers as Labour leader?

this is the result of is the complete dishonour of teachers. So

where is the mutualisation with the public sector? You do not trust

teachers. Teachers have no sense of vocation, no sense of respect. You

have a teacher who is 50 Yate and have been wonderful and served the

children, in your scheme, there is no recognition of good teachers all

those who have given everything to the children. And now she is

looking at less money, working longer, you have really dishonoured

the teachers and no part of your scheme... Do you see this, you

are... I am an an old-fashioned socialist. Do you see this as a

political challenge? I think members, I think they are very

careful about what they do. They study the details of the government.

Do you see it? Pay and pensions of public sector which has -- workers

are a key political debate in Britain today. I know you have a

busy day, so thank you for being here.

Now, we all know blue stands for Conservative. Yellow stands for

Liberal Democrat and Red is Labour. But moves are afoot in the Labour

Party to change all that. Max Hello, today, we are talking about

callers. Weather blew his Conservative, whether read his

radical or whether Green is green - - blue. Let's look at the pictures

you have been sending the and four hour gallery. David Cameron -- sent

us in for the gallery. David Cameron does not like this as much

as this, the Red Tory. It is about Big Society. Nick Clegg has been

working on this for some time, it is the Orange book and it is a

homage to economic liberalism. This is the purple book, from the New

Labour think tank. The idea is blue Conservatism meets read socialism.

But we are here to talk about the work of Ed Miliband. This is Blue

Labour, but he has had a bit of help. Marks tears was -- Mark

Stears was at Oxford with Ed Miliband and is one of the

architects of New Labour. Something went wrong with Tony Brown -- Tony

Blair and Gordon Brown. Labour was so far out of touch with the public.

Labour did not resonate with the public. So it came up with a plan

of doing politics by stealth, to redistribute by stealth and

increase people's right. For a lot of the time, of New Labour was

doing things behind closed doors rather than saying, this is what we

think, this is what we think, how can we find a common good? Blue

Labour wants to reconnect with working class voters who feel

alienated. They want to on a family, faith and community. Policy

relating to immigration and minority rates were not be swept

under the carpet, and Blue Labour wheat to the private sector and not

state to weed growth and provide jobs. This man likes some of the

stuff, but there are plenty of reservations. Some of the rhetoric

suggests the people cannot see anything good that new Labour did

in power for 13 years. And that is unfortunate. Some of the colour-

coded names like Blue Labour, and the purple book, they disconcert

ordinary party members because it sounds like because you are moving

away from the Labour Party must back read that you are going to

ditch values -- the Labour party's red. Politics, branding is

everything, and this is like asking Manchester it United to play in the

kicked of Manchester City. -- Manchester United.

We're now joined by Danny Finkelstein, of the Times, and

Maurice Glasman, of course, to talk about Blue Labour.

So many viewers do not know what Blue Labour is about. What is the

main difference between Blue Labour and New Labour? It has disrespect

for the managerial are some and has more on a for the workforce. So if

you talk about schooling, we would like to see parents have a third of

the power and teachers and the state or local authority, and

negotiate a common good. New Labour look for managerial solutions in

the private sector that led to the banking collapse, and to the public

sector... We but people and relationships first. What is the

difference between Blue Labour and Old Labour? There is a distrust of

the Keynesian economics. The idea you get a few people that worked at

Oxford and put them in the Treasury and it will be all right.

Miliband also did PPE at Oxford, so did his brother and Ed Balls.

there is a problem with the way working class leaders have --

working-class readers have not come through, we have become to

managerial. People who have not had the experience of life. If you look

at Bevan, they Union was their teacher and they would great

teachers. The difference between old and new is that we rejected the

nationalisation model. And we are very interested in the German

social market economy, particularly in vocation. What do you make of

this? Some of it is good, some of it is right. Some of it makes the

Labour recognise issues they did not recognise enough empower. But I

am worried it sounds quite nostalgic and it moves the Labour

Party towards a class analysis. A lot of talk about respecting the

working class or public servants, I am in favour of respecting

everybody, but with an issue like pensions, it is about distributing

money between one person and another. So the respect you showed

teachers are increasing their pensions is disrespect you show to

security guards charging them to pay for it. So there are

distribution issues. There are a lot of be questioned. New Labour

believes in distribution of income? Do not be too anxious! People keep

going, I am really worried. Read it carefully and do not drum -- jump

to premature conclusions. This is just crazy. Security guards,

cleaners and cooks is my central concern, so to talk about not being

concerned about living wage... Naturally. This is just wrong!

There is no nostalgia. Naturally, you have respect. But Arab

distributional questions and I do not think you have sold those --

but there are. And talking about respect for working people, there

were people he sustained Labour full sums to -- for some time in

power and Tony Blair's concentration on middle-class is

help they stayed in power. And I am middle class. I am in favour of the

German model that favours both sides, there has to be a big change

in the way we conceptualise public funds... I am sorry we have had to

rush this. These are some pictures of what is happening, that is the

march in central London. Thanks to our guests. I'll be back tonight

for This Week with the author Michael Rosen, Adam Boulton and