13/07/2011 Daily Politics


13/07/2011

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Good morning and welcome to the Daily Politics, as the Prime

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Minister prepares to name a judge to lead two inquiries into phone

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hacking. MPs of all parties unite to urge Rupert Murdoch to drop his

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bid for BskyB. We'll have the latest.

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Up to 2,000 rank and file police officers will be descending on

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Westminster to protest against budget cuts and a pay freeze. But

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how much has the phone hacking scandal eroded any public sympathy

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for their position? And what about those issues which

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usually make the political weather? Could weak growth blow the

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Government's plans for the economy off course?

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And is a lack of runways in the South East putting the brakes on

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And before we all pack off on our hols, with us for the duration for

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the this last Daily Politics of the summer is the man who'll be getting

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us there, Transport Secretary, Phillip Hammond. And hitching up

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her Bailey Pegasus 514 is former Labour Minister and keen caravaner,

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Margaret Beckett. I thought that was a motorbike!

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The Prime Minister will attempt to get on the front foot over the

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phone hacking scandal. He'll be making a statement to MPs just

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after Prime Minister's Questions, on how the inquiry into phone

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hacking will be set up. That will be just after 12:30pm.

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And then later today, MPs will support en masse a Labour motion

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calling on Rupert Murdoch's News Corp to abandon its bid for BskyB.

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That will probably be in the early evening. If there is a vote. There

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will be about a three-hour debate. The government are having to run

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fast to keep up with public opinion and the opposition, isn't it?

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are very clear where public opinion is, and what our own feelings are.

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The government, unlike the opposition, and to some extent the

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media, is constrained by what the law requires it to do, what the

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legal processes are. We are now in a position, because Rupert Murdoch

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withdrew the assurances he had given around the BSkyB bid, we are

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in a position to refer that to the Competition Commission and that has

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been done. You will vote for the Labour motion tonight? If there is

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a vote, absolutely. I suspect all Members of Parliament will agree on

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this and nobody will be willing to shout no, and therefore it will go

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through by unanimity. That is by acclamation, but it doesn't count

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the votes. If you want to let Mr Murdoch know what our parliament

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really thinks of him, and his desire to get the rest of BSkyB,

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shouldn't you count the votes? think it is a really interesting

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question that you have put your finger on. There won't be anybody

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who wants to say, by shouting no, that there will be a vote.

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don't you shout no? Thanks! not? It would be a matter of

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twisting somebody's arm. People will be discussing whether that is

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the best way to go, or whether to say, there is so much unanimity,

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nobody wants to go, might be an even more powerful message --

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nobody wants to vote. The premise that has changed his tune several

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times, it took him a while to agree to having a judge lead inquiry. It

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was only when the story became too horrific to ignore that he agreed

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on that. He initially told the BBC he would do the debate tonight,

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then he said he wouldn't. He doesn't really know what he is

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doing. The Prime Minister said very clearly from the outset, there

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would have to be a judge Legg inquiry, he made that very clear

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last week. Excuse me, he made it clear last week but there have been

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calls for an inquiry long before last week. Once the story started

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to break, the Prime Minister was very clear there would have to be a

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judge lead inquiry. The question tonight, won the debate today, is

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about how best for everybody to have their say. -- on the debate.

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The Prime Minister will make a statement and that is the proper

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way for prime ministers to set out the Government's plans. There will

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then be a debate which is primarily a chance for Parliament to have its

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say, for backbenchers to have its say. Many more speakers have put

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their names forward than will be able to speak, so I don't think it

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will be helpful for a prime minister to again repeat what he

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has already said in his statement, chewing up time when backbenchers

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could be debating this issue. Miliband is having a bit of a field

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day. Most commentators think he has set the pace. He has led on this,

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completely. It is not through courage, is it? He only turned on

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Mr Murdoch after he was already doubtful but two weeks ago, he was

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paying obeisance at Mr Murdoch's summer party. He never raised any

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of that. He is kicking Mr Murdoch because he is not powerful. I have

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heard you say enough things about the Murdoch empire and about Rupert

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Murdoch's attitude to things. I thought that when Ed came out and

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said what he did about the BSkyB bid and the hacking, I thought it

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was a classic Yes Minister moment. You could hear Sir Humphrey in the

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background going, that is very brave. It was. It would have been

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braver to do it too was three years ago. Some of us were critical of Mr

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Murdoch when he had the power to strike back. Your leader has been

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critical now he has not got the power to strike back for a Ed was

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not the leader two or three years ago, he is now. He stepped forward

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when it was not clear how this was going to go. It was a very bold

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thing that he did and everybody else has had to follow. If he

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hadn't stepped forward, I doubt we would be in the position we are in

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today. What do you say to that? If Mr Miliband hadn't set the pace,

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even though the going was Elia -- was easier, we wouldn't be here

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today. I don't think this is getting us anywhere. Whether it is

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a lot, the viewers is -- will decide, what is the answer? I think

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the viewers will have decided, all politicians were too close to the

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Murdoch empire. We know the previous Labour administration were

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very close. David Cameron has been clear, he now sees that we were too

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close to the Murdoch empire, and we all now need to distance ourselves

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from the media. Would you like to answer this question or have 30

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seconds silence to contemplate? When Gordon Brown says, he never

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had a good relationship with News International. I think that is

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probably right, actually. Why did he go to Rebekah Wade's wedding?

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Let me give you a slightly different example. I have heard

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repeatedly, look how Tony Blair flew to Australia. I have always

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thought that was an issue that should be turned on its head. If

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you have an invitation to go to something and you say, certainly

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not, when you are in a position of being a political leader, whatever

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your party, you are uttering a deliberate public snub. Why did Mrs

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Brown invite Rebekah Wade to Chequers for a sleep over? Well...

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That sentence, never had a good relationship, cannot stand. He is

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talking about with News International, not individual

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journalists. He has said he had huge respect for Rupert Murdoch.

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Rupert Murdoch was at Chequers over the weekend that Gordon Brown made

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the decision to pull the 2007 election. If that isn't indicative

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of the closeness of the relationship, I don't know what is.

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Sometimes, 30 seconds silence works well stop lots of people go to

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up to 2,000 police officers are descending on Westminster this

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lunchtime. No, they're not all being questioned by MPs, but

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protesting at cuts to the police and a Government imposed pay freeze.

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I'm joined from their day of action by Simon Reed, who's vice-chairman

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of the Police Federation, who represent rank and file police

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officers. Thank you for taking time out for us. I wonder, in the light

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of this tacking scandal, how much it has heard your cause. Your

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reputation as the police is not flying very high -- hurt your cause.

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There are three profession to have been harmed by this. Journalists,

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politicians, police officers. We have a very few number of reach. I

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hear what you are saying, -- of each. I think you will find it is a

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very few number at the moment. It affects all three professions are.

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Do you know of any police officers who have taken money from

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journalists? No, I don't, not at all. Are you surprised that the

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practice went on? Yes, I am surprised. I imagine that

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yourselves as journalists are surprised, and politicians are

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surprised at their own professions. We are where we are. We have

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investigations going on. We can't speculate, we have to let those

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inquiries happen and see what outcomes they are. I won't ask you

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to speculate but react. Maybe you saw Andy Hayman, you could not have

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avoided hearing his submissions to the select committee. Were you a

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bit embarrassed by the kind of South we have certain views about

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what was said by all of them. are those views? We would love you

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to share them with us. What did you make of what you heard senior

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police officers saying to the select committee? Some of us were

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quite surprised at how inadequate some of the responses were. We have

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also got to accept, they are speaking from memory, they don't

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have notes, they have left the service. We have to put it in

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context. The majority of people I have spoken to were surprised at

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how poor Andy Hayman was. Let's talk about the protest today.

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Everybody is facing cuts, surely the police have got to take their

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fair share as well? Indeed, we have always accepted that. We said from

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a year ago, the 12% cut that Her Majesty's Inspectorate was saying

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is possible over four years, we accepted that, and we were prepared

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to help the government to do the 12% cut. But we have seen 20%, an

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additional �1 billion out of policing. That is what our concerns

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are. I wonder if it is wise to take such an aggressive stance. You are

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meant to be neutral but taking a very aggressive stance when it

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comes to the government. During a Police Federation conference in May,

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Theresa May had to sit through a video talking about cuts, and you

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had the music from the Kaiser Chiefs's I predict a riot, it is

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hardly a neutral stance. Why would it be a neutral stance? We work in

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a vacation we are proud to be part of. We know what is happening in

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terms of policing and what the cuts will mean. We know that there is an

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issue of crime and public safety. We need to get our message across,

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sometimes we do it in a robust way. We don't make any apologies for how

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Philip Hammond, they don't like you very much, and it is an odd and

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peculiar situation for a Conservative minister to be in,

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when you hear a policeman having such antipathy towards a

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Conservative-led coalition government. I should start by

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saying, we do like them, are great admirers and respecters of the

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police. They don't feel like to, they feel you are cutting service

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to the bone for us that they have to change, as other parts of the

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public service have to change. are talking about a 14% real terms

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change in police funding -- real- terms cut. We are talking about a

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service which still has some very considerable changes that it can

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make, in labour practices, in the amount of overtime used, that will

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make it more efficient and effective. Get more police officers

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out onto the front line and deliver a better service to the public.

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There is some fog over how many cuts will go into front line

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services and there was a leaked memo to the Guardian, predicting a

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That is assuming there would be no contribution from local precepts.

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On the wider issue, how has the image of the police force been

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damaged by hack date, or as others are saying, everything gate. I hope

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that the public are drawing a distinction between the bobby on

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the beat, and the small Quatre of officers that appear to be

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implicated in this kind of activity. I don't think this will dent public

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confidence in their local police forces, who they see as

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tremendously important and part of their community. Are there a few

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rotten apples or is this endemic? think we are talking about rotten M

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-- rotten apples. I am sure the policeman hate that when someone is

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pulling out with the police, they will throw this in their face. --

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falling out. I also agree that most people won't think it is the police

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they deal with day-to-day. One of the most excellent things that has

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come out of our period in office is that we have this neighbourhood...

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People know the local police who on the beach, they have their mobile

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numbers and so on. They are not going to put those people in the

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same category. On the of it face of it, some good

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news on the economy this morning, with unemployment falling by some

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26,000. That is a measure which most economists -- economists think

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is the most accurate way of measuring unemployment. But at the

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same time, the number claiming Job Seekers' Allowance increased by

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almost the same amount and the Employment Minister, Chris Grayling,

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warned that the "road to recovery would be choppy." It's it may be

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because of the government's welfare Questions about the growth of the

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economy, rather than unemployment or prices, are now taking centre

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stage. If there isn't growth, it could wash away the Chancellor's

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plans for reducing the deficit and getting the economy going. Anita

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has the details. Yes, just as Andrew is getting

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ready to hit Magaluf for the summer, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is

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also off to the seaside. But the ominous waves on the horizon

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threaten to destroy all his pretty work of rebuilding the economy.

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First, there's the growth problem. Last November, the Office for

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Budget Responsibility said growth for 2011 would be 2.1%. In March,

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they revised this down to 1.7%. But the average independent forecast

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has now fallen to 1.5%, and shows no sign of stopping there. And

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looking at the last three months, the NIESR think tank thinks the

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economy grew by just 0.1%. The Chancellor will get the official

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figure on 26 July, but with the economy stagnating over the

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previous six months, that would mean growth of just 0.1% in nine

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months - raising questions over how the Government can possibly cut the

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deficit. And the Chancellor will also be concerned about

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manufacturing. The accountancy firm BDO's optimism index has fallen by

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26 points from February to June. The problems in UK manufacturing

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have become synonymous with the Derby-based train-builder,

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Bombardier. They have said they will shed 1,400 jobs after missing

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out on the Thameslink contract. Today, union leaders met with the

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Transport Secretary, Philip Hammond, Philip Hammond, starting with

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Bombardier, on how did the meeting go? A meeting with the unions was

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primarily to discuss the reform agenda and the McNulty report. They

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asked if they could raise the Bombardier issue. I answered their

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questions. So there is no joy? procurement carried out was carried

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out properly within the narrow confines of what was set out in the

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procurement that Labour started in 2008. I did not have, and it does

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not matter how many opposition politicians assert that I did have,

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I did not have the flexibility to award... Just for clarification,

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the union meeting this morning has changed nothing as far as the

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contract is concerned? That is right. I wanted to talk with the

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unions about how I think, going forward, we can and must look at

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the way that we procure these big public contracts, to make sure that

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we give British business a fair chance. Margaret Beckett, my right

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in thinking that Bombardier is inure constituency? It is a big

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issue for the British economy and a big issue for your area, given the

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jobs and the skills involved. The Government's case is that the way

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in which the contract was constructed under the Labour

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government meant that it was a narrow contract and they could not

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take wider considerations into account, and they had to give it to

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Siemens in Germany. That is their case. But as Philip is well aware,

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there are quite a number of questions around that argument.

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From my point of view, I do not agree that this was done and dusted,

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cut-and-dried and there was no choice. Why not? Partly because it

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appears that the argument is that a lot of this was because of the

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finance. Siemens is now a bank. I have only recently realised this.

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It was able to put its balance sheet of behind this order and that

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may, rather than the quality of the trains, have been the thing that

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caused it. Was it? It was a factor. One of the things I have said to

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Margaret and publicly is that I do not think the way the procurement

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was structured was most helpful. Why should Siemens being a bank

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affect the decision? Because Siemens is a company with a very

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strong credit rating. It has a massive balance-sheet and it is

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able to borrow money more cheaply than Bombardier. Is that not an

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unfair situation? The contract was structured as a requirement for

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somebody to build the trains, or one and finance them over 30 years.

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The cost of financing was part of the structure. I am not blaming

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Labour politicians. I think this is about a culture in the public

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sector,... You don't blame them but to make it clear that the hands --

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your hands were tied, is that not right? We do not think it is.

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is what he is saying. I understand that. Philip is in the position all

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ministers are run. He is being given information by civil servants.

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If you look at the tender as it was drawn up, you can argue that was a

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poor process, and I agree we need a different one for the future, but

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within that, the Department for Transport kept explicitly the

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decision to handle financing separately. They had two

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opportunities to actually trigger that separate decision. Let me

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answer that. I have specifically looked at this issue. The ability

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for asked to intervene is only at the preferred bidder stage. We

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could say to Siemens that having appointed the preferred bidder, we

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do not like the package and we want to nominate banks to provide 50% of

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the financing. But that would not run to the preferred bidder status.

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I have looked at this. Certainly, it is a tragedy for the people at

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bomb RDA. A tragedy we are trying to avert. -- Bombardier. Let me

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look at the economy. Economic data out this week. If you look at what

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is happening in the Eurozone, the reason why the right these massive

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downgrades on the debt of Greece, Portugal and Ireland, and now Italy

:21:35.:21:40.

in trouble too, they have this massive debt but there are

:21:40.:21:44.

economies are barely growing. Some are actually declining, so the

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markets have concluded that they will not make the money to be able

:21:47.:21:52.

to pay back the debt. Britain has Floodline for six months, and a

:21:52.:21:56.

quarter that has just ended looks like it is going to be weak.

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Minister, are we not in danger of ending up in the same position? --

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Britain has a flat wind. There are two major differences. First of all,

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we are not in the Eurozone. We are able to adjust the value of our

:22:12.:22:17.

currency for. We have done that already. It is already down 25%.

:22:17.:22:22.

may happen again. You think it should go more? We do not make

:22:22.:22:26.

predictions on the exchange rate but Britain has a currency. The

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exchange rate can change to reflect the reality we are in. Greece,

:22:30.:22:36.

Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Spain do not. They are locked into a fixed

:22:36.:22:42.

exchange rate mechanism. The second point is that we have taken clear

:22:42.:22:46.

and decisive action to resolve the problems in the public finances in

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a way that the markets find satisfactory. Right now, Britain

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has a level debt which is similar to Portugal's in relation to GDP,

:22:59.:23:03.

yet we have interest rates very similar to Germany's. The market

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has given Britain the benefit of the doubt because they have seen

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that we have a credible plan and that we are determined to deliver

:23:09.:23:15.

it. If we waver in that determination, then the markets

:23:15.:23:19.

will start to struggle. So the position is there is still no Plan

:23:19.:23:24.

B. Regardless of the Kroll problems, what the minister says about the

:23:24.:23:31.

markets have been sunk confidence in the deficit reduction plan,

:23:31.:23:36.

based at bended judgment in the election campaign. -- they

:23:37.:23:39.

suspended judgement. They suspended judgment to wait until the campaign

:23:39.:23:47.

was over. The race no alternative to deficit reduction. Everybody

:23:47.:23:54.

agrees that there is no alternative. But by their scale? We do not

:23:54.:23:58.

accept that. Then you could end up in trouble. Well, if you look at

:23:58.:24:02.

sales of long-term gilts before the election, it was perfectly clear.

:24:02.:24:06.

Every time I hear this conversation about George Osborne, I think he

:24:06.:24:10.

was hoisted by his own petard. He was very responsible and

:24:10.:24:14.

competition -- in opposition. All that rubbish about us being in the

:24:14.:24:19.

same position as Greece, it was not true, but if the markets start to

:24:19.:24:24.

believe it, we will all suffer. markets would have believed George

:24:24.:24:28.

Osborne rather than Gordon Brown, who would have thought? Last night,

:24:28.:24:38.
:24:38.:24:39.

some lucky person here in the UK hit the jackpot. They did not win a

:24:39.:24:46.

Daily Politics mug, but they would have wanted to. They won �161

:24:46.:24:50.

million on the EuroMillions lottery. Isn't it good to live in a country

:24:50.:24:58.

where effort and hard work and application gets you on in society?

:24:58.:25:08.
:25:08.:25:09.

There are, however, some things which money cannot buy.

:25:09.:25:14.

Unless you go on eBay! I knew she was going to say that! To be in

:25:14.:25:18.

with a chance of winning, he will have to enter our Guess The Year

:25:18.:25:21.

competition. We will remind you how in just a

:25:21.:25:31.
:25:31.:25:40.

moment. First, can you remember We hope to create a shield against

:25:40.:25:50.
:25:50.:25:55.

aggression, and the fear of We shall also show that we are not

:25:55.:26:05.
:26:05.:26:13.

just the nation of shopkeepers. -- In these 49 cars is the heart of

:26:13.:26:23.
:26:23.:26:49.

A flurry of guesses here. To be in with a chance of winning, just send

:26:49.:26:57.

your answer to our special e-mail address: Full terms and conditions

:26:57.:27:02.

on our website. I think it was a very important

:27:02.:27:08.

year. Very important in my household. A very, very important

:27:08.:27:13.

here. Coming up to midday, Big Ben behind

:27:13.:27:16.

us. It can only mean one thing, Prime Minister's Questions is on

:27:16.:27:21.

its way. It is the final PMQs of the summer season. There will be no

:27:22.:27:25.

more until September, which means that we will not be seen Nick

:27:25.:27:29.

Robinson at this time of the day, but we do today. We were all

:27:29.:27:34.

assuming that PMQs will be dominated by the Murdoch scandal,

:27:34.:27:38.

but it does not end there. At 12:30pm, the Prime Minister will

:27:38.:27:44.

stand up again and tell us? We will get a statement from him and, in a

:27:44.:27:49.

sense, it battle for the control of the agenda. Ed Miliband has led the

:27:49.:27:53.

way with the motion that we will see afterwards, emotion which

:27:53.:27:57.

everyone will support. The Prime Minister is desperate. It looks

:27:57.:28:00.

like he, and not a Labour leader, is in the driving seat. He will

:28:00.:28:05.

announce the name of the judge who will lead this inquiry. It will be

:28:05.:28:15.
:28:15.:28:15.

one, not two inquiries. Two faces. The new approach to transparency in

:28:15.:28:20.

Minister's meetings with media moguls. At the moment, you only get

:28:20.:28:23.

that information if they have met on official premises but from now

:28:23.:28:27.

on, I think we will get something that suggests that even a meeting

:28:27.:28:32.

in the Prime Minister's flat for his constituency or a form of

:28:32.:28:39.

meeting at a party will be revealed publicly. That will be interesting.

:28:39.:28:42.

In Piers Morgan's diaries, it came out that the Prime Minister, Mr

:28:42.:28:47.

Blair at the time, had seen the editor of the miniature -- the

:28:47.:28:51.

editor of the male I think 65 times, which made a lot of people wonder,

:28:51.:28:56.

why are you seeing Piers Morgan 65 times? Is that has to become public,

:28:56.:29:01.

you will think about that. Not only that, but how will journalism work

:29:01.:29:05.

if every meeting asked to be made public? Things are said

:29:05.:29:09.

confidentially to journalists. What I do not know is whether there will

:29:09.:29:13.

be a distinction between people who control newspaper groups or own a

:29:13.:29:16.

newspaper groups and the journalists. The reason the Prime

:29:16.:29:18.

Minister did not spell this out is because instantly civil servants

:29:18.:29:25.

pointed out these problems, say if you see the economics editor, if

:29:25.:29:31.

you're the Chancellor, and you reveal that you had been meeting...

:29:31.:29:34.

You were after reveal that you saw the Chancellor of the day before,

:29:34.:29:41.

it is quite easy to work out where the story came from. Exactly. It is

:29:41.:29:47.

likely to be limited to executives but the trick that says, well, we

:29:47.:29:51.

met at a party or a country house, I think they will have to find a

:29:51.:29:55.

way of saying that that is dealt with as well. The political contest,

:29:55.:29:59.

who is in the driving seat? The truth is it is Ed Miliband. He will

:29:59.:30:04.

want to make questions about David Cameron. I expect we will see the

:30:04.:30:09.

question saying, what did you know and when about Andy Coulson? This

:30:09.:30:14.

business of two inquiries, two for the price of one, there is going to

:30:15.:30:19.

be an inquiry... I will have to hold that question because we can

:30:19.:30:27.

go straight over to Prime I had meetings with ministerial

:30:27.:30:30.

colleagues and others ant in addition to to my duties, I will

:30:30.:30:35.

have further such meetings today. Secretly deleting voice mails left

:30:35.:30:40.

for a missing teenager, buying the silence of public figures who would

:30:40.:30:43.

incriminate your business, and publishing confidential medical

:30:43.:30:47.

details of a disabled child who just happens to have a famous

:30:47.:30:52.

father. I ask the Prime Minister, I any of these the actions of a fit

:30:52.:30:58.

and proper person? My honourable friend makes an extremely powerful

:30:58.:31:01.

point in a powerful way. We have to be clear about what is happening

:31:01.:31:08.

here. There is a firestorm that is engulfing parts of the media, parts

:31:08.:31:13.

of the police, and our political system's ability to respond. What

:31:13.:31:17.

we must do, in the coming days and weeks, is think of the victims,

:31:17.:31:21.

like the Milly Dowler family, who are watching this today, and make

:31:22.:31:25.

doubly sure we get to the bottom of what happened and prosecute those

:31:25.:31:35.
:31:35.:31:36.

Mr Speaker, yesterday, I met the family of Milly Dowler, who have

:31:36.:31:40.

shown incredible bravery and strength in speaking out about what

:31:40.:31:45.

happened to them, the hacking of their daughter's phone, and their

:31:45.:31:49.

terrible treatment at the hands of the News of the World. I am sure

:31:49.:31:52.

the whole House will want to pay tribute to their courage and

:31:53.:31:57.

bravery. Does the Prime Minister now agree with me that it is an

:31:57.:32:01.

insult to the family, that Rebekah Brooks, who was editor of the News

:32:01.:32:06.

of the World at the time, is still in her post at News International?

:32:06.:32:09.

I made very clear, she was right to resign, that resignation should

:32:09.:32:15.

have been accepted. There needs to be root and branch change at this

:32:15.:32:18.

entire organisation. I think it is now becoming increasingly clear

:32:18.:32:24.

that while everybody, to start with, wanted to separate what was

:32:24.:32:28.

happening at News International and what is happening with BSkyB, that

:32:28.:32:31.

is simply not possible. What has happened at this company is

:32:32.:32:35.

disgraceful, it has got to be addressed at every level and they

:32:35.:32:38.

should stop thinking about mergers when they have got to sort out the

:32:38.:32:44.

mess they have created. Mr Speaker, I it thanked the Prime Minister for

:32:44.:32:47.

that answer and he is right to take the position that Rebekah Brooks

:32:47.:32:51.

should go. When such a serious cloud hangs over at News

:32:51.:32:56.

Corporation, and when the more systematic pattern of deceit we

:32:56.:33:01.

have seen, does he agree with me, and he clearly does, that it will

:33:01.:33:05.

be quite wrong for them to expand their stake in the British media.

:33:05.:33:09.

Does he further agree that if the House of Commons speaks with one

:33:09.:33:12.

voice today, and I hope he will come to the debate, that Rupert

:33:13.:33:17.

Murdoch should drop his bid for BSkyB, should recognise the world

:33:17.:33:22.

has changed, and he should listen to this House of Commons. I agree

:33:22.:33:25.

with what the right honourable gentleman said and I think it is

:33:25.:33:29.

good that the House of Commons is going to speak with one voice. As

:33:29.:33:34.

he knows, the government has a job to do, to act at all times within

:33:34.:33:38.

the law. My right honourable friend, the Culture Secretary, has to obey

:33:38.:33:43.

every aspect of the law, laws that were on the whole put in place by

:33:43.:33:47.

the last government. Yes, as the honourable member says, we should

:33:47.:33:51.

look at amending the laws. We should make sure the fit and proper

:33:51.:33:55.

test is right, we should make sure the competition and Enterprise acts

:33:55.:34:01.

are right. I think it is perfectly acceptable, perfectly -- to obey

:34:01.:34:05.

the law as a government but to send a message that this business has

:34:06.:34:10.

got to stop the business of mergers and get on with cleaning its

:34:10.:34:14.

stables will stop I look forward to debating these issues with the

:34:14.:34:17.

Leader of the House, who will be speaking for the government later

:34:17.:34:23.

in the debate. I know he is making a statement shortly about the

:34:23.:34:27.

inquiry, but can he confirm something we agreed last night?

:34:27.:34:30.

That we need to make sure we get to the bottom not just of what

:34:30.:34:35.

happened at our newspapers, but also of the relationships between

:34:35.:34:39.

politicians and the press. Does he agree with me that if we expect

:34:39.:34:43.

editors and members of the press to give evidence under oath, so should

:34:43.:34:48.

current and past politicians? agree with that. On this issue of

:34:48.:34:53.

the debate, we are debating now, and that is right. We will have a

:34:53.:34:56.

statement in the House of Commons. I will stand here and answer

:34:56.:35:00.

questions from as many Members of Parliament as want to ask them. I

:35:00.:35:04.

think we should focus on the substance. As the Leader of the

:35:04.:35:07.

Opposition said, we had an excellent meeting last night, we

:35:07.:35:11.

discussed the nature of the inquiry that need to take place, we discuss

:35:11.:35:15.

the terms of reference. I send those to his office this morning,

:35:15.:35:18.

we have had some amendments, we are happy to accept those amendments.

:35:18.:35:22.

They will still be draft terms of reference and I want to hear what

:35:22.:35:26.

the Dowler family and others have to say, so we can move ahead in a

:35:26.:35:29.

way that takes the whole country with us, as we deal with this

:35:29.:35:34.

problem. I also think, if we are going to say to the police, you

:35:34.:35:37.

must be more transparent and cut out corruption, if we are going to

:35:37.:35:41.

say to the media, you must be more transparent and cut out malpractice,

:35:41.:35:45.

yes, the relationship between politicians and the media has

:35:45.:35:49.

changed and we must be more transparent as well, about meetings,

:35:49.:35:53.

particularly with executives, editors and proprietors. I will be

:35:53.:35:57.

setting out proposals for precisely that in a minute or two. I want to

:35:57.:36:00.

thank the Prime Minister for those answers and they answers the whole

:36:00.:36:04.

country will have wanted to hear. Can I also ask him to clear up one

:36:04.:36:08.

specific issue. It has now been confirmed that his chief of staff

:36:08.:36:12.

and his director of strategy were given specific information before

:36:12.:36:15.

the general election by the Guardian newspaper. The information

:36:15.:36:20.

showed that while he was editing the News of the World, Andy Coulson

:36:20.:36:25.

had hired Jonathan Rhys, a man jailed for seven years for a

:36:25.:36:30.

criminal conspiracy, and who made payments to police on behalf of the

:36:30.:36:33.

News of the World. Can the Prime Minister tell us what happened to

:36:33.:36:40.

that significant information that was given to his chief-of-staff.

:36:40.:36:43.

would like to answer this in full and I need to give a very full

:36:44.:36:47.

answer. All these questions relate to the fact I hired a tabloid

:36:47.:36:52.

editor. I did so on the basis of assurances he gave me, that he did

:36:52.:36:54.

not know about the phone hacking and he was not involved in

:36:55.:36:59.

criminality. He gave those same assurances to the police, a select

:36:59.:37:03.

committee of this house, and under oath to a court of law. If it turns

:37:03.:37:06.

out he lied, it won't just be that he shouldn't have been in

:37:06.:37:10.

government, it will be that he should be prosecuted. But I do

:37:10.:37:14.

believe that we must be to the principle that you are innocent

:37:14.:37:21.

until proven guilty. Let me deal directly about the information

:37:21.:37:24.

given to our office by figures from the Guardian newspaper in February

:37:24.:37:30.

last year. This information was not passed on to me. Let me be clear,

:37:30.:37:36.

this was not some secret stash of information. Almost all of it was

:37:36.:37:39.

published in The Guardian in February 2010, at the same time my

:37:39.:37:44.

office was approached. It contained no allegations directly linking

:37:44.:37:47.

Andy Coulson to illegal behaviour, it did not shed any further light

:37:47.:37:52.

on the issue of phone hacking. It was not drawn to my attention by my

:37:52.:37:58.

office. What is more... I met the editor of The Guardian the very

:37:58.:38:03.

next month and he didn't raise it with me once. I met him a year

:38:03.:38:07.

later, he didn't raise its them either. I would ask, if this

:38:07.:38:11.

information is soap significant, why have I not been asked one

:38:11.:38:17.

question about it at a press conference, or in this house? The

:38:17.:38:22.

reason why, Mr Speaker, it didn't add anything to the assurances that

:38:22.:38:27.

I was given. Let me say once more, if I was like to, if the police

:38:27.:38:31.

were lied to, if the select committee was lighted, it will be a

:38:31.:38:41.
:38:41.:38:47.

matter of deep regret and a matter Order, order. Any body might think

:38:47.:38:54.

that there is orchestrated Nye's. Order! Order! The house will come

:38:54.:39:00.

to order. -- orchestrated noise. These exchanges will continue in an

:39:00.:39:04.

orderly way. Mr Ed Miliband. Speaker, the Prime Minister has

:39:04.:39:09.

made a very important admission. He has admitted that his chief of

:39:09.:39:13.

staff was given information before the general election, that Andy

:39:13.:39:19.

Coulson had hired a man jailed for seven years for a criminal

:39:19.:39:25.

conspiracy, who made payments to the police on behalf of the News of

:39:25.:39:31.

the World. This evidence casts serious doubt on Mr Coulson's

:39:31.:39:34.

assurances that the phone hacking over which he resigned was an

:39:34.:39:40.

isolated example of illegal activity. The Prime Minister says

:39:40.:39:44.

his chief of staff did not pass on this very serious information. Can

:39:44.:39:48.

he now tell us what information he proposes to take against his cheek

:39:48.:39:55.

of staff? -- is chief of staff. have given the fullest possible

:39:55.:39:59.

answer I could to the honourable gentleman. He can ask questions

:39:59.:40:09.
:40:09.:40:12.

about Andy Coulson. I can ask He can ask questions about my

:40:12.:40:17.

private office. I can ask questions about Damien McBride. Do you know

:40:17.:40:22.

what, Mr Speaker? I think the public, and the victims of this

:40:22.:40:27.

appalling scandal, want us to rise above this and deal with the

:40:27.:40:37.

problems that this country faces? Mr Speaker, he just doesn't get it.

:40:37.:40:47.
:40:47.:40:51.

I say this to the Prime Minister. He was warned by the Deputy Prime

:40:51.:40:57.

Minister about hiring Andy Coulson. He was warned by Lord Ashdown about

:40:57.:41:02.

hiring Andy Coulson. He has now admitted in the House of Commons

:41:02.:41:08.

today that his chief of staff was given complete evidence which

:41:08.:41:11.

contradicted Andy Coulson's previous account. The Prime

:41:11.:41:15.

Minister must now publish the fullest account of all the

:41:15.:41:19.

information that was provided, and what he did, and why those warnings

:41:19.:41:24.

went unheeded. What he should do most of all, he should apologise

:41:24.:41:28.

for the catastrophic error of judgment he made in hiring Andy

:41:28.:41:35.

Coulson. I am afraid, Mr Speaker, the person who is not getting it is

:41:35.:41:40.

now the Leader of the Opposition. What the public want us to do is

:41:40.:41:44.

address this firestorm. They want us to sort out bad practices at the

:41:44.:41:48.

media, they want us to fix the corruption in the police, they want

:41:48.:41:53.

a proper public inquiry, and they are entitled to ask, when these

:41:53.:41:57.

problems went on for so long, for so many years, what was it that

:41:57.:42:01.

happened in the last decade? When was the police investigation that

:42:01.:42:06.

didn't work? Where was the public inquiry over the last 10 years? We

:42:06.:42:10.

have now got a full un police investigation that will see proper

:42:10.:42:15.

prosecutions and I hope, proper convictions. We will have a proper

:42:15.:42:20.

inquiry, run by the judge, to get to the bottom of this issue. That

:42:20.:42:27.

is the leadership I am determined to provide. Order! Order! Order! Or

:42:27.:42:37.
:42:37.:42:41.

I say to the Children's Minister, tried to calm down, and behave like

:42:41.:42:46.

an adult. If you can't, if it is beyond you, leave the chamber, it

:42:46.:42:51.

get out, we will marriage without due. Mr David Ward -- we will

:42:51.:42:59.

manage without you. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Order, order. This is

:42:59.:43:03.

intolerable behaviour as far as the public... It is not fund it. Only

:43:03.:43:10.

in your mind, Mr Lawton, is it funny. It is disgraceful. Mr David

:43:10.:43:17.

Ward. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. In a case of the pot

:43:17.:43:20.

calling the kettle black, if we could have a pantomime interval for

:43:20.:43:24.

a moment. Is the Prime Minister aware that there are young people

:43:24.:43:31.

in Bradford being quoted, without convictions or claims, �53,000 to

:43:31.:43:36.

insure their first car. These ridiculous premiums are being

:43:36.:43:45.

driven by insurance companies selling fresh details of personal

:43:45.:43:52.

injuries. He my honourable friend is making a very good point about

:43:52.:43:56.

the problem of referral fees, that are driving up the cost of

:43:56.:43:59.

insurance for many people. right honourable gentleman, the

:43:59.:44:03.

Member for Blackburn, has made very powerful points about this. There

:44:03.:44:06.

was a report to the government calling for refer all fees to be

:44:06.:44:11.

banned. I am very sympathetic to this, the Justice Secretary is as

:44:11.:44:18.

well, and we hope to make progress. Will the Prime Minister, if asked,

:44:18.:44:22.

give evidence to the judge lead public inquiry that he is setting

:44:22.:44:28.

up today? Of course. The point about the inquiry, which I will be

:44:28.:44:30.

announcing in a moment or two, it will be judged lead, it will take

:44:31.:44:34.

its powers from the inquiries Act, it will be able to call people

:44:34.:44:40.

under oath. His there is the issue of police corruption, the issue of

:44:40.:44:45.

what happened at the media, and questions for politicians, past,

:44:45.:44:55.
:44:55.:44:55.

My constituents are increasingly concerned about the deepening

:44:55.:44:59.

problems in the Eurozone. Will the Prime Minister reassure me that he

:44:59.:45:05.

is doing everything he can to keep us out of it and to urge the

:45:05.:45:09.

Eurozone to Act? I think my Honourable Friend his right. We

:45:09.:45:15.

have to stay out of the Eurozone. A think being a member of the Euro

:45:15.:45:18.

would take away the flexibility we currently have, but we have to

:45:18.:45:23.

remember that 40% of our exports go to Eurozone countries, so we have

:45:23.:45:27.

to make constructive suggestions about stress tests for their banks,

:45:27.:45:32.

backed up with the recapitalisation involving the private sector, and

:45:32.:45:36.

earning fiscal credibility through concrete action to reduce excessive

:45:36.:45:39.

deficits. Basically, Eurozone countries have to recognise that

:45:39.:45:43.

they have got to do more together and faster. They have to get ahead

:45:43.:45:50.

of the market, rather than responding to the next crisis.

:45:50.:45:55.

Ashdown said he warned Number Ten last year of the terrible damage

:45:55.:46:00.

that it would suffer if Andy Coulson was appointed. Can the

:46:00.:46:06.

Prime Minister see how precisely he reacted to this powerful warning?

:46:06.:46:11.

The point I made before, of course, the decision to employ a tabloid

:46:11.:46:14.

editor meant that there were a number of people who said it was

:46:14.:46:19.

not a good idea, particularly when that tabloid editor had been at the

:46:19.:46:22.

News of the World when bad things had happened. The decision I made

:46:22.:46:26.

was to accept the assurances he gave me. As I have said, those

:46:26.:46:30.

assurances were given to the police, to a Select Committee and the court

:46:30.:46:34.

of law. If I or others were like two, that will be a matter of deep

:46:34.:46:39.

regret. We must make sure that we judge people at innocent -- as

:46:39.:46:45.

innocent until proven guilty. week I received another e-mail from

:46:45.:46:49.

a constituent regarding Meckel and cable theft, although this time it

:46:49.:46:53.

told me of an elderly lady who was at home and unable to raise the

:46:53.:46:57.

alarm because she had had a fall and the cables from the village had

:46:57.:47:01.

been stolen for the second time in as many weeks. This is a growing

:47:01.:47:06.

problem. The legislation relating to this dates back to 1964, please

:47:06.:47:11.

can we have a review to ensure that those scrap-metal dealers to accept

:47:11.:47:13.

the Still to come: Will are prevented from doing so and

:47:13.:47:23.
:47:23.:47:25.

prosecuted? I have every sympathy. I am being -- I'm trying to make

:47:25.:47:28.

sure that these crimes are taken very seriously by the police

:47:28.:47:32.

because they put massive costs on to voluntary services and charities

:47:32.:47:36.

and businesses. We must make sure it is not seen as a second order

:47:36.:47:44.

crime. It is a worrying crime. debate this afternoon will be vital

:47:44.:47:48.

because it shows that the House will be united in its revulsion at

:47:48.:47:52.

what has been done to Milly Dowler's family. Can I ask the

:47:52.:47:55.

Prime Minister to make urgent inquiries as to whether the

:47:55.:47:59.

families of the victims of 9/11 were similarly targeted by

:47:59.:48:03.

criminals and News International, and if they were, well you raised

:48:03.:48:08.

it with his counterparts in the United States? -- will he raised it.

:48:08.:48:13.

In the statement I will make, I will give figures for the amount of

:48:14.:48:19.

phones that the Metropolitan Police think were hacked. They pledge they

:48:19.:48:24.

will contact every single one. Paul Stephenson and thyme last night,

:48:25.:48:28.

and I sought further reassurances of -- about the scale of the

:48:29.:48:33.

operation. In what was a mixed appearance by police officers at

:48:33.:48:36.

the Home Affairs Select Committee last night, I thought that Sue

:48:36.:48:40.

Akers, leading the investigation, acquitted herself extremely well.

:48:40.:48:44.

We should have confidence that the Metropolitan Police will get to the

:48:44.:48:49.

bottom of this. With ambitions of being the greenest County, Suffolk

:48:49.:48:53.

is committed to a low carbon world with offshore wind farms, nuclear

:48:53.:48:58.

power and the recycling rate of over 60%. He is always welcome to

:48:58.:49:02.

visit but will he give his backing to our ambitions to enhance skills

:49:02.:49:07.

training so we can build a new job opportunities to be created locally.

:49:07.:49:10.

I think the honourable lady makes a good point and I congratulate her

:49:10.:49:15.

on branding Suffolk as the green coast. I think there is a big

:49:15.:49:18.

opportunity in light of what the Energy and Climate Change Secretary

:49:18.:49:24.

has sat, in terms of green jobs, renewable energy and nuclear. One

:49:24.:49:27.

of the things to encourage the inward investment we want is to

:49:27.:49:30.

demonstrate that we are going to build up our skills base, and that

:49:30.:49:33.

is where local Enterprise partnerships can create such a

:49:33.:49:39.

valuable role of. Can the Prime Minister tell the House whether he

:49:39.:49:42.

had any conversations about phone hacking with Andy Coulson at the

:49:42.:49:47.

time of his resignation, and will he place in the elaborate a lot of

:49:47.:49:52.

any meetings and phone calls between him and Andy Coulson

:49:52.:49:58.

discussing his resignation? As I said, perhaps before she wrote or

:49:58.:50:05.

had written her questioned, of course I sought assurances from

:50:05.:50:10.

Andy Coulson and I received those assurances. Those assurances were

:50:10.:50:17.

not just given at the time to me, but also given subsequently to the

:50:17.:50:19.

Select Committee and to a criminal case under oath. These were

:50:19.:50:23.

repeatedly given. Let me say, for the avoidance of any doubt, if

:50:24.:50:27.

these assurances turn out not to be true, then it is not just that he

:50:28.:50:31.

should not have worked in government, it is that he should,

:50:31.:50:39.

like others, face the full force of law. Can I raise a different case

:50:39.:50:43.

of hacking. The computer hacker Gary McKinnon. Whilst I recognise

:50:43.:50:47.

the Home Secretary has legal process to follow, does he share

:50:47.:50:52.

the concern for my constituent's nine-year nightmare as he feels his

:50:52.:50:58.

life is hanging on a thread, waiting to be cut by extradition?

:50:58.:51:02.

recognise the seriousness of this case. The Deputy Prime Minister and

:51:02.:51:05.

I raised it with permanent -- President Obama when he visited. It

:51:06.:51:10.

is not about the alleged offence, which everyone knows is very

:51:10.:51:14.

serious, and you can understand why the Americans feel so strongly

:51:14.:51:18.

about it, REALLY is in front of the Home Secretary, who has to consider

:51:18.:51:22.

reports about Gary McKinnon's Health and well-being. It is right

:51:22.:51:26.

that she does that in a proper, effectively and quartzite judicial

:51:26.:51:36.
:51:36.:51:41.

way. -- and the case really is. Can I ask the Prime Minister to

:51:41.:51:45.

justify the following expenditure, at the beginning of last month a

:51:45.:51:50.

servicemen from Northern Ireland a asked for a non urgent pair of

:51:50.:51:57.

boots. �45. They were dispatched from defence based best by private

:51:57.:52:02.

courier to Northern Ireland at a cost of �714. Is it not time that

:52:02.:52:10.

he got a grip of this? I know that former health ministers wanted to

:52:10.:52:14.

hear the rattle of every bedpan and maybe I should see the order of

:52:14.:52:17.

every pair of boots, but to recognise the point. One of the

:52:17.:52:20.

things we're trying to do in the Ministry of Defence is recognised

:52:21.:52:24.

that there is a huge amount of cost in terms of back-office costs and

:52:24.:52:28.

logistics. We want to make that more efficient so that we can spend

:52:28.:52:32.

money on the front line. The example he gives is a good one and

:52:32.:52:40.

I shall check it out. Can the Prime Minister assure the

:52:40.:52:42.

House that all the legal press activity under the last government

:52:42.:52:47.

will be investigated now, and that this will include the criminal

:52:47.:52:50.

conspiracy between the highest levels in that last government,

:52:50.:52:57.

with parts of the Murdoch empire, including blagging of bank accounts

:52:57.:53:03.

of Lord Ashcroft in a bid to undermine him and his positions, as

:53:03.:53:10.

laid out in dirty politics, dirty times. The point about the inquiry

:53:10.:53:12.

is that it will look at the relationship between politicians

:53:12.:53:17.

and media groups over the whole issue of that relationship as it

:53:17.:53:21.

relates to media policy. I think this is extremely important. The

:53:21.:53:26.

inquiry will have the ability to call serving politicians, previous

:53:26.:53:29.

Prime Ministers, to get to the bottom of what happened and how on

:53:29.:53:36.

healthy this relationship was. That is what needs to happen. One Monday,

:53:36.:53:42.

the MoD Permanent Secretary told the Public Accounts Committee that

:53:42.:53:47.

the Prime Minister himself locked the National Audit Office from

:53:47.:53:53.

accessing relevant Security Council documents. The audit is considered

:53:53.:53:57.

essential to assess whether decisions on the aircraft carrier

:53:57.:54:01.

in the Defence Review represent value for money. That refusal is

:54:01.:54:07.

unprecedented. In the interests of full transparency and

:54:07.:54:11.

accountability, will be Prime Minister now agree to immediately

:54:11.:54:18.

release the information? The short answer is we were following

:54:18.:54:23.

precedent, but a long answer is, if she wants me to come to a committee

:54:23.:54:27.

and explain what an appalling set of decisions by last government

:54:27.:54:33.

made on aircraft carriers, the delay alone by the government she

:54:33.:54:38.

worked for added �1.6 billion to the cost of aircraft carriers! If

:54:38.:54:42.

she wants me to turn up and not just tell you what we discussed in

:54:42.:54:46.

Cabinet, but lay out the full details of the waste that her

:54:46.:54:55.

government was responsible for, name the day. Following a question

:54:55.:54:58.

from me three-and a-half years ago, his predecessor, the right

:54:58.:55:02.

honourable member for Dunfermline and Cowdenbeath set up pilot

:55:02.:55:07.

schemes to provide sign language support for deaf parents and their

:55:07.:55:09.

children in Devon and Merseyside. These have now been completed and

:55:09.:55:14.

have been a success. Will he meet a delegation of deaf parents and

:55:14.:55:18.

children to discuss how this sign language support can be extended to

:55:18.:55:24.

all children and parents across the United Kingdom? We do a lot to

:55:24.:55:27.

support different languages throughout the United Kingdom and

:55:27.:55:30.

signing is an incredibly valuable language for many people in our

:55:30.:55:34.

country. These pilot schemes have been successful and I looked at

:55:34.:55:38.

what the last Prime Minister said when asked this question. I will

:55:38.:55:47.

certainly arrange a meeting for him. My question to the Prime Minister

:55:47.:55:51.

concerns the Translink real programme and the contract. He will

:55:51.:55:56.

be aware that with 20,000 manufacturing jobs at risk, it is

:55:56.:56:00.

right that it should be of concern. Can the Prime Minister confirm that

:56:00.:56:05.

no contract has been signed and that no contract can be signed

:56:05.:56:15.
:56:15.:56:15.

until the funding package itself is determined. --? Given that the

:56:15.:56:25.
:56:25.:56:28.

funding package... 20,000 jobs are at stake. Given that 20,000 jobs

:56:28.:56:33.

are at risk, will be Prime Minister look at holding the competition for

:56:33.:56:41.

that funding package... I think we have got it. What I would same to

:56:41.:56:45.

the honourable gentleman, I know he cares deeply about this issue, and

:56:45.:56:49.

bombard BAA is a great country if - - Bombardier is a great company. In

:56:49.:56:54.

this case, the procurement process was designed and initiated by the

:56:54.:56:59.

previous government. We were bound by the criteria they set, and

:56:59.:57:02.

therefore we have to continue with the decision made according to that

:57:02.:57:06.

criteria. We are looking at all EU procurement rules to see whether we

:57:06.:57:12.

can make better for the future issues like this. Will the Prime

:57:12.:57:16.

Minister join me in calling for the electrification of the crew Mach 2

:57:16.:57:23.

Chester realign? -- Crewe took Chester rail line, which will link

:57:23.:57:30.

us to High Speed Two? I am well aware of this campaign. I remember

:57:30.:57:35.

spending a lot of time at Crewe station during the last Parliament,

:57:35.:57:41.

normally accompanied by people dressed in top hat and tails. It is

:57:41.:57:45.

not in the current programme but we will look sympathetically. We know

:57:45.:57:50.

we want to see more electrification of railway lines in our country.

:57:50.:57:55.

His government said that university tuition fees would average 7005

:57:55.:58:03.

under pounds. In actual fact, the average �8,400. -- �7,500. How can

:58:03.:58:09.

you open the taxpayer to such a liability during this Parliament?

:58:09.:58:14.

There are only nine universities charging �9,000 for every student.

:58:14.:58:18.

There are 58 universities that will not charge �9,000 for any of their

:58:18.:58:24.

courses. If you look at further education courses, 108 out of 124

:58:24.:58:29.

will charge less than �6,000 for all their courses. But the point I

:58:29.:58:33.

make is that university degrees have not suddenly started costing

:58:33.:58:39.

7000, 8000 or �9,000. They have always cost that. The question is,

:58:39.:58:42.

do you last successful graduates to pay or do you ask the taxpayer to

:58:42.:58:48.

pay? We have made our choice and I think that the party opposite, that

:58:48.:58:54.

introduced tuition fees, has got to come up with an answer. Amid the

:58:54.:59:00.

turmoil in other European economies, is it not essential that this

:59:00.:59:04.

country should continue to take steps to reduce its debt and Steer

:59:04.:59:13.

clear of paying for any future EU bail-outs? It is not only the

:59:13.:59:16.

restrictions of the Euro, it is also the building up of

:59:16.:59:20.

unsustainable levels of debt. Although we are out of the Euro, it

:59:20.:59:24.

does not mean that we do not have to deal with debt. We do. But we

:59:24.:59:28.

have the opportunity of being a safe haven for people. You can see

:59:28.:59:31.

our market interest rates coming down because of the action this

:59:31.:59:35.

government has taken. We have to keep that up but recognise that the

:59:35.:59:39.

Euro is sorting out its own problems and that is in our edition

:59:39.:59:43.

-- that is in our best interests. We have to be helpful and

:59:43.:59:49.

constructive. Last week, I was approached regarding a fee paying

:59:49.:59:52.

debt management company that wanted to advise their clients to take out

:59:52.:59:56.

a remortgage to pay debts. The company paid �11,000 to creditors

:59:56.:00:01.

and went out of business, taking the rest of his money. I have many

:00:01.:00:06.

other examples like this. Self- regulation is not working with his

:00:06.:00:10.

industry. Will the Prime Minister look at regulating this sector and

:00:10.:00:14.

provide the OFT with the resources to take action swiftly so that

:00:14.:00:19.

vulnerable people are not continuing to be ripped off? I know

:00:19.:00:22.

that the honourable lady has not just constituency experience of

:00:22.:00:26.

this but managed a Citizens Advice Bureau centre herself, so has

:00:26.:00:31.

experience of seeing people coming in with debt problems. I would say

:00:31.:00:33.

that the Citizens' Advice Bureau was probably the finest

:00:33.:00:37.

organisation in our country for helping people with debt. I will

:00:37.:00:40.

certainly look at the suggestion she makes about whether the sector

:00:40.:00:47.

can be better regulated. And also, looking at the issue of credit

:00:47.:00:55.

unions and how we can lead to their expansion. The House will share the

:00:55.:00:59.

out rage that the right honourable member for Kirkcaldy and

:00:59.:01:02.

Cowdenbeath Express this week about the publication of private medical

:01:03.:01:07.

information relating to his son. He said when he was Prime Minister, he

:01:07.:01:15.

tried to set up a investigation into phone hacking. Can my -- can

:01:15.:01:18.

be Prime Minister save what detailed preparatory work he

:01:18.:01:23.

received? I have sympathy with the former Prime Minister about the

:01:23.:01:29.

blagging of his details. In public life, we are all subject to extra

:01:29.:01:35.

scrutiny. It is not fair one laws are broken. The fact is, we have

:01:35.:01:41.

suffered and we have been too silent. That is the problem. You

:01:41.:01:46.

hold back from dealing with these situations because you want good

:01:46.:01:54.

relations with the media. I did not inherent any work about the public

:01:54.:02:04.

inquiry. But the one we have set up will get the job done. The 45th

:02:04.:02:07.

International Children's Games will come to lecture at the start of

:02:07.:02:14.

August. When hundred 1012 to 15- year-old will participate in nine

:02:14.:02:19.

sports across the county. Will the Prime Minister congratulate two

:02:19.:02:28.

Labour authorities in Olsson the games and will he set a -- send a

:02:28.:02:38.
:02:38.:02:41.

representative of the Government to It sounds like an excellent

:02:41.:02:45.

initiative and I wish everyone the best of luck. Would the Prime

:02:45.:02:50.

Minister confirm that all witnesses will be required to give evidence

:02:50.:02:55.

under oath? As I will explain in a minute, it is going to be one

:02:55.:02:59.

inquiry with two parts, but led by a judge, and the judge will

:02:59.:03:03.

eventually agree the terms of reference, set out the terms it is

:03:03.:03:13.
:03:13.:03:18.

going to work, and be responsible In recent days, the whole country

:03:18.:03:22.

has been shocked by the revelations of the phone hacking scandal. What

:03:22.:03:26.

this country and this house has to confront is an episode that is

:03:26.:03:30.

frankly disgraceful. Accusations of widespread law-breaking by parts of

:03:30.:03:34.

our press, alleged corruption by police officers and as we have just

:03:34.:03:38.

discussed, a failure of our political system over many years,

:03:38.:03:43.

to tackle a problem that has been getting worse. We must, I think, at

:03:43.:03:48.

all times, keep front and centre, the real victims of this. Relatives

:03:48.:03:53.

of those who died at the hands of terrorism, war heroes, murder

:03:53.:03:56.

victims, people who have already suffered in ways that we can barely

:03:56.:04:01.

imagine. They have been made to suffer all over again. I believe we

:04:01.:04:06.

all want the same thing. We want press, police and politicians that

:04:06.:04:10.

serve the public. Last night, the Deputy Prime Minister and I met

:04:10.:04:14.

with the Leader of the Opposition. I also met with the chairs of

:04:14.:04:17.

Culture, Media and Sport, home affairs and justice and select

:04:17.:04:22.

committees to discuss the best way forward. I want to set out how we

:04:22.:04:26.

intend to proceed. First on the public inquiry, second on the

:04:26.:04:29.

issues surrounding News International's proposed takeover

:04:29.:04:33.

of BSkyB, and third on ethics in the police service and its

:04:33.:04:37.

relationship with the press. Before I do that, let me update the house

:04:37.:04:41.

on the current criminal investigation into phone hacking. I

:04:41.:04:44.

met with Sir Paul Stevenson last night. Be assured me the

:04:44.:04:48.

investigation is fully resourced, it is one of the largest currently

:04:48.:04:52.

under way in this country and it is being carried out by a completely

:04:52.:04:55.

different team than the one that carried out the original

:04:55.:05:00.

investigation. It is being led by Sue Akers, who I believe impress

:05:00.:05:04.

the select committee yesterday. Her team is looking through 11,000

:05:04.:05:11.

pages containing 3870 names, including around 4,000 mobile and

:05:11.:05:16.

5,000 landline phone numbers. They have contracted 170 people so far

:05:16.:05:20.

and they will contact every person named in those documents. The

:05:20.:05:23.

commissioner's office informed me that the team have made eight

:05:23.:05:27.

arrests and undertaken numerous interviews. Let me turn to the

:05:27.:05:32.

action that the government is taking. I set out our intention to

:05:32.:05:36.

establish an independent public inquiry into phone hacking and

:05:36.:05:39.

other illegal practices in the British press. We have looked

:05:39.:05:42.

carefully at what the nature of this inquiry should be. We want it

:05:42.:05:47.

to be one that is as robust as possible, that can get to the truth

:05:47.:05:51.

fastest, and get to work the quickest. And one that vitally

:05:51.:05:55.

commands the full confidence of the public. There are two pieces of

:05:55.:05:59.

work that have to be done. First, we need a full investigation into

:05:59.:06:03.

wrong doing in the press and police, including the failure of the first

:06:03.:06:06.

police investigation. Second, we need a review of regulation of the

:06:06.:06:10.

press. We would like to get on with both of these elements as quickly

:06:10.:06:14.

as possible, while being mindful of the ongoing criminal investigations.

:06:14.:06:18.

After listening carefully, we have decided the best way to proceed is

:06:18.:06:23.

with one inquiry, but in two parts. This inquiry will be led by one of

:06:23.:06:27.

the most senior judges in our country, Lord Justice leavers and.

:06:27.:06:31.

He will report to both the Home Secretary and the Secretary for

:06:31.:06:35.

Culture, Media and Sport. The inquiry will be established under

:06:35.:06:40.

the 2005 inquiries Act, which means it will have the power to summon

:06:40.:06:43.

witnesses including newspaper reporters, management, proprietors,

:06:43.:06:51.

policemen and politicians of all parties, to give evidence under

:06:51.:06:57.

oath. Starting as soon as possible, Lord Justice leaders and, assisted

:06:57.:07:02.

by a panel with relevant expertise in media, broadcasting, regulation

:07:02.:07:05.

and government, will inquire into the culture, practices and ethics

:07:05.:07:09.

of the press, their relationship with the police, the failure of the

:07:09.:07:14.

current system of regulation, the contacts made and discussions had

:07:14.:07:18.

between national newspapers and politicians. Why previous warnings

:07:18.:07:22.

about press misconduct were not heeded. And the issue of cross-

:07:22.:07:26.

media ownership. He will make recommendations for a new, more

:07:26.:07:29.

effective way of regulating the press, one that supports their

:07:30.:07:33.

freedom, plurality and independence from government, but which also

:07:33.:07:37.

demands the highest ethical and professional standards. He will

:07:37.:07:41.

also make recommendations about the future conduct of relations between

:07:41.:07:45.

politicians and the press. This part of the inquiry, we hope will

:07:45.:07:49.

report within 12 months. The second part of the inquiry will examine

:07:49.:07:54.

the extent of unlawful or improper conduct at the News of the World or

:07:54.:07:57.

other newspapers. And the way in which management failures may have

:07:57.:08:01.

allowed this to happen. This part of the inquiry will look into the

:08:01.:08:04.

original police investigation and the issue of corrupt payments to

:08:04.:08:07.

police officers. And it will consider the implications for the

:08:07.:08:12.

relationships between newspapers and the police. Lord Justice has

:08:12.:08:16.

agreed to these draft terms of reference. I am placing them in the

:08:16.:08:19.

library today and we will send them to the devolved administrations. No

:08:19.:08:23.

one should be in any doubt of our intentions to get to the bottom of

:08:23.:08:27.

the truth and learn the lessons of the future. Next, the issue of News

:08:27.:08:32.

International's bid to take over BSkyB. By the day, we are hearing

:08:32.:08:35.

shocking allegations. Allegations that royal protection officers were

:08:35.:08:39.

in the pay of the News of the World and they handed over the contact

:08:39.:08:43.

details of the Royal Family for profit. Allegations that the former

:08:43.:08:46.

prime minister, Gordon Brown, had his personal details black by

:08:46.:08:56.
:08:56.:08:57.

another News International title. - Serious questions must be asked

:08:57.:09:02.

about News Corporation's proposed takeover of BSkyB. News Corporation

:09:02.:09:06.

has withdrawn his proposed undertakings in lieu of reference

:09:06.:09:10.

to the Competition Commission. That is why on Monday, my right

:09:10.:09:13.

honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport,

:09:13.:09:17.

referred their bit to the Competition Commission. The

:09:17.:09:19.

relevant independent authorities will have the time to take an

:09:19.:09:23.

exhaustive look at all the relevant issues and come to an consider

:09:23.:09:27.

decision on whether this takeover should proceed. -- considered

:09:27.:09:30.

decision. It will be up to the Secretary of State to make the

:09:30.:09:35.

final decision, in his quasi- judicial capacity. We must follow

:09:35.:09:39.

the law in respect of News International's proposed

:09:39.:09:43.

acquisition of BSkyB. Let me repeat what I said on Monday. In my view,

:09:44.:09:48.

this business should not be focused on mergers and takeovers but on

:09:48.:09:51.

tearing up the mess and getting their house in order. That is what

:09:52.:09:57.

the house will be voting on tonight -- Clearing up. The people involved,

:09:57.:10:00.

whether they were directly responsible for wrong doing,

:10:00.:10:03.

whether they sanctioned it all covered it up, however high or low

:10:03.:10:07.

they go, they must not only be brought to justice but also have no

:10:07.:10:13.

future role in running a media company in our country. Now let me

:10:13.:10:16.

turn to the issue of ethics in the police and their relationship with

:10:16.:10:20.

the press. Of course, it is important that there is a good

:10:20.:10:23.

relationship between the media and the police. Police often used

:10:23.:10:26.

newspapers and other media to hunt down wanted criminals and appeal

:10:26.:10:30.

for information. However, allegations have been made that

:10:30.:10:33.

some corrupt police officers may have taken payments from newspapers.

:10:33.:10:37.

There are wider concerns that the relationship between the police and

:10:37.:10:41.

the press can also be too close. When I spoke to Sir Paul Stephenson

:10:41.:10:47.

yesterday, he made clear that he is as determined as I am to -- that

:10:47.:10:49.

all aspects of the police Russia should with the media should be

:10:49.:10:54.

beyond reproach. Want -- police relationship. On the issue of

:10:54.:10:59.

improper payments, the Met Police immediately referred the case to

:10:59.:11:03.

the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Since then, the IPCC's

:11:03.:11:07.

most senior commissioner has been supervising the Met's work to

:11:07.:11:11.

identify officers we may have taken payments. As soon as any officers

:11:11.:11:15.

are identified, the commission has made clear that it will move to

:11:15.:11:18.

wear full independent investigation, drawing on all the available

:11:18.:11:28.

expertise necessary, so the public is reassured. -- moved to a full.

:11:28.:11:33.

It has the resources and full powers to investigate any

:11:33.:11:36.

wrongdoing they might uncover. The Home Secretary has commissioned a

:11:36.:11:40.

report from the IPCC on their experience of investigating

:11:40.:11:43.

corruption in the police service, and any lessons that can be learned.

:11:43.:11:46.

Their initial findings will be delivered by the end of the summer.

:11:47.:11:50.

I can also tell the House that in addition to the work of the

:11:50.:11:57.

judicial requiring, the -- inquiry, Sir Paul Stephenson is looking to

:11:57.:12:00.

invite a senior figure to advise him on the ethics that should

:12:00.:12:03.

underpin the relationship for his own force, the Metropolitan Police.

:12:04.:12:07.

This figure will advise him on how to ensure maximum transparency in

:12:07.:12:13.

public confidence on how the arrangement works. If we are

:12:13.:12:17.

calling for greater transparency from the police, it is only right

:12:17.:12:21.

we provide it in government and too. As I have said, one of the reasons

:12:21.:12:26.

we got into this situation, is that over the decades, politicians and

:12:26.:12:29.

the press have spent time courting support, not confronting the

:12:29.:12:33.

problems. I will be consulting the Cabinet Secretary on an amendment

:12:33.:12:36.

to the ministerial code, to require ministers to record all meetings

:12:36.:12:41.

with newspapers and proprietors, senior editors and executives,

:12:41.:12:45.

regardless of the nature of the meeting. Permanent secretaries and

:12:45.:12:49.

special advisers will also be required to record such meetings.

:12:49.:12:52.

This information should be published quarterly. It is a first

:12:52.:12:55.

for our country and alongside the other steps we are taking, will

:12:55.:12:58.

help make the UK Government one of the most transparent in the world.

:12:58.:13:02.

I will also discuss this with the opposition and perhaps we can adopt

:13:03.:13:08.

this on a cross-party basis. After this statement, I will be meeting

:13:08.:13:12.

the family of Milly Dowler. None of us can imagine what they have gone

:13:12.:13:18.

through, but I do know this. They, like everyone else in this country,

:13:18.:13:22.

want their politicians, all of us, to bring this ugly chapter to a

:13:22.:13:26.

close and ensured that nothing like it can never happen again. It is in

:13:26.:13:35.

that spirit that I commend this Can I start by thanking the Prime

:13:35.:13:38.

Minister for his statement, and the meeting last night? The revelations

:13:39.:13:42.

of the past week have shocked the whole country. The public now

:13:42.:13:46.

rightly expects those of us in this house that represent them, to

:13:46.:13:50.

provide not just an echo for that shock but the leadership necessary

:13:50.:13:54.

to start putting things right. That is why it is in the interest of the

:13:54.:13:58.

whole house that we move forward swiftly, comprehensively and

:13:58.:14:01.

wherever possible, on an agreed basis. Let me ask him about the

:14:01.:14:06.

timing, the nature and scope of the inquiry. Can I welcome the

:14:06.:14:10.

establishment of the inquiry today, and can the Prime Minister

:14:10.:14:14.

confirmed it will be staffed, and up and running, before the recess?

:14:14.:14:18.

Can he also confirm that from the moment the judge is appointed today,

:14:18.:14:22.

it will be an offence to destroy documents relating to this inquiry,

:14:22.:14:27.

and can he tell us was that he will be taken to preserve documents at

:14:27.:14:32.

Downing Street which might be relevant to the judge's inquiry. We

:14:32.:14:38.

welcome a number of aspects of the announcement today that we have

:14:38.:14:44.

been clearly dealing -- calling for. It must be judged lead if it is to

:14:44.:14:48.

get to the bottom of what happened, and when. Can he confirm it has

:14:48.:14:53.

been set up under the inquiries Act 2005, and will have the power to

:14:53.:14:58.

compel witnesses? Can he explain how he envisages the judge and the

:14:58.:15:02.

panel operating together? Turning to the scope of the inquiry, the

:15:02.:15:05.

Prime Minister set out a number of areas he envisaged being covered in

:15:05.:15:09.

his press conference last Friday, and he has gone further today. A

:15:09.:15:15.

think it is right the government had decided to follow our advice,

:15:15.:15:22.

and the Curia views... -- the Clear the use of the hacked off campaign

:15:22.:15:32.
:15:32.:15:32.

and the Dowler inquiry in acting And we come out of that exchange at

:15:32.:15:36.

the House of Commons. You can continue to follow it on the BBC

:15:36.:15:41.

Parliament shall. On a day where British politics is now totally

:15:41.:15:47.

dominated by what happened at the News of the World and the fall-out

:15:47.:15:50.

from that. Prime Minister's Questions, the front bench exchange

:15:50.:15:54.

was all about that subject. And the Prime Minister has just made a

:15:54.:15:57.

statement which means that for the foreseeable future, although it may

:15:57.:16:01.

not be in the headlines to the extent it is now, this issue will

:16:01.:16:07.

continue to rumble on for two, three, possibly four years as the

:16:07.:16:09.

inquiries that the Prime Minister has announced into the behaviour of

:16:09.:16:15.

the press over hacking and the police, and then they brought some

:16:15.:16:20.

inquiry into the nature of press regulation and press standards in

:16:20.:16:24.

this country takes place. -- a broad. One that will take place

:16:25.:16:28.

under a judge, under oath and in public with proprietors having to

:16:28.:16:34.

turn up as well as everybody else. Legal obligations to do so. We have

:16:34.:16:39.

15 minutes on this programme to go. These are big events. Your reaction

:16:39.:16:46.

first and then that of our panel. Strong reactions from you. John

:16:46.:16:49.

from Garden City: "Ed Miliband started with a strong hand but now

:16:49.:16:53.

he seems to be concentrating solely on Andy Coulson. He is in danger of

:16:53.:16:57.

posturing. The key issue is standards. It looks like David

:16:57.:17:02.

Cameron made just begin to start leading on this issue." Annie in

:17:02.:17:06.

Manchester: "David Cameron has demonstrated he will throw anyone

:17:06.:17:13.

to the wolves to say his -- save his own face.'s another

:17:13.:17:16.

viewer,"Presumably Andy Coulson was vetted before taking his position.

:17:16.:17:21.

Interesting to know whether the betting was completely done. If it

:17:21.:17:25.

was, did the Prime Minister ignored the advice? If not completely done,

:17:25.:17:29.

it needs to be looked into."Jacqueline Korn"David Cameron

:17:29.:17:36.

has been forthright. If Ed Miliband tries to make a with this, he

:17:36.:17:43.

should be demoted."Another one,"I wonder why Mr Clegg and Mr Osborne

:17:43.:17:48.

are not joining in the roars of the backbenches."And it would not be

:17:48.:17:55.

PMQs if we did not have a comment on the Speaker. Andrew:"The Speaker

:17:55.:18:01.

needs to come down."A full advice. I'm sure the Speaker will help it -

:18:01.:18:04.

- helpful advice. I'm sure the Speaker will take it. When are we

:18:05.:18:12.

now, Nick Robinson? On the one hand, we have the Prime Minister urging

:18:12.:18:15.

the opposition to come with him, saying that any future meeting

:18:15.:18:20.

between senior politicians and not only -- not ordinary journalists

:18:20.:18:23.

but their editors, managers or proprietors will have to be

:18:23.:18:29.

recorded. We do not know how. I suspect that they will give us the

:18:29.:18:32.

dates -- they will not give us the Danes, but I expect they will say

:18:32.:18:37.

that there were two meetings in the last quarter or so on. When you say

:18:37.:18:41.

recorded, not take it? It will be published, entered into the log

:18:41.:18:45.

book. Later, not bad day, but we will be told that the Prime

:18:45.:18:49.

Minister had a meeting with the likes of Rebekah Brooks, Rupert or

:18:49.:18:53.

James Murdoch or their equivalents in other organisations including

:18:53.:19:00.

the BBC. That is a very significant change. If you speak to the Prime

:19:00.:19:07.

Minister, will bat now be -- well that's now be out? I think he means

:19:07.:19:14.

the people who run the newspapers, so whether it would be the BBC's

:19:14.:19:17.

head of news or the Director General, who knows? It is not yet

:19:18.:19:21.

clear but it seems to me those meetings would be recorded along

:19:21.:19:25.

with those from newspapers as well. There does not seem to be a great

:19:25.:19:28.

problem with that but it is an important change. We will be able

:19:29.:19:32.

to see a pattern of whether politicians are seeing a particular

:19:33.:19:36.

paper or a particular -- particular proprietor in advance of important

:19:36.:19:42.

news stories and business decisions. In addition, we will get under off

:19:42.:19:46.

from a judge the exposure of what happened in the past between

:19:46.:19:50.

politicians and the media. And both Ed Miliband and David Cameron have

:19:50.:19:54.

now publicly said that there is quite a lot in their party's pasts

:19:54.:19:59.

that they regret and in David Cameron's case, his personal past.

:19:59.:20:03.

As it happens, Ed Miliband has had rather limited contact, something

:20:03.:20:08.

that was seen as a problem two weeks ago. Suddenly, having no

:20:08.:20:13.

friends and the media comes -- becomes an asset. That process of

:20:13.:20:18.

exposing who did what, who knew what. One other thing was not said

:20:18.:20:22.

in the statement, which are thought was terribly important. The Prime

:20:22.:20:27.

Minister said"We must look at amending the laws. The fit and

:20:27.:20:31.

proper test, the test that can be applied by the media regulator as

:20:32.:20:36.

to whether anyone is a fit and proper holder of the and

:20:36.:20:41.

broadcasting licence."The problem with that, politicians tell me, is

:20:41.:20:44.

that until there is a conviction, you cannot say someone is not fit

:20:44.:20:49.

and proper. The problem in this case is that the timetable for the

:20:49.:20:53.

takeover of BSkyB is quicker than the timetable for any prosecutions.

:20:53.:20:56.

Therefore, the decision has to be taken before you know whether they

:20:56.:21:00.

are fit and proper. One other thing, he suggested that competition law

:21:00.:21:06.

might have to be changed. The law was set up precisely to stop

:21:06.:21:09.

politicians picking and choosing between which businessmen they

:21:09.:21:14.

liked and which they did not like. Yet it leaves the Prime Minister

:21:14.:21:17.

and the Culture Secretary in a problem, saying, we do not want

:21:17.:21:21.

this to happen but we cannot stop it happening. That leaves

:21:21.:21:24.

Parliament in the extraordinary situation of voting, if there is

:21:24.:21:32.

every vote, and there may not be a vote because of procedural things,

:21:32.:21:35.

voting to stop things happening, but being unable to do so. Margaret

:21:35.:21:39.

Beckett, it looks like the Government has given Mr Miliband

:21:39.:21:47.

what he wanted. It sounds like it. If you go back a week or 10 days,

:21:47.:21:51.

we were calling for evidence on oath and a judge-led inquiry. You

:21:51.:21:56.

name it, and it appears to be all there. If there are any nooks and

:21:56.:22:00.

crannies, it will no doubt come out later. There may be an argument

:22:00.:22:06.

about Heinen -- timing issues. looks as though we have got 80 or

:22:06.:22:13.

90% of what we asked for. Were you struck by what I was struck by?

:22:13.:22:17.

thought there was a personal thing and will the Prime Minister

:22:17.:22:23.

said."The search your bins,"He said,"And you do not complain

:22:23.:22:25.

because you want a good relationship."I thought that was

:22:25.:22:29.

something that anybody on any side of the Commons could have agreed

:22:29.:22:33.

with. It seemed to go beyond the political. I was muttering that

:22:33.:22:38.

that was completely right. We have heard these changes. David Miliband

:22:38.:22:42.

-- Ed Miliband challenged David Cameron to publish retrospective

:22:42.:22:46.

details of meetings with newspaper proprietors. I expect that is

:22:46.:22:51.

because he is assuming that Mr Cameron has had more than Mr

:22:51.:22:56.

Miliband has had. It is confession day. Some people watching this will

:22:56.:23:01.

say that we are effectively in war -- at war in Libya, there is a

:23:01.:23:06.

European sovereign debt crisis gathering momentum and perhaps

:23:06.:23:12.

coming to the boil, and that there is no sign that growth is returning

:23:12.:23:19.

any time soon to this economy. But our political system is going to be

:23:19.:23:22.

dominated by investigations into the media. It is the wrong priority,

:23:22.:23:26.

some people will say. I do not think it is the wrong priority. It

:23:26.:23:30.

is clear the public feels a sense of outrage about what has happened.

:23:30.:23:36.

Listening to Nick, My senses that there is two parts to this. There

:23:36.:23:39.

is looking at the relationship between the police and the media

:23:39.:23:45.

and there is looking at the hacking episode. But there is also a

:23:45.:23:48.

broader context, the relationship between the media and the

:23:48.:23:52.

politicians, going back into the past. I expect that that will give

:23:53.:24:00.

you and your colleagues in the media many, many hours of copy and

:24:00.:24:04.

interview time over the years. It will dominate the political agenda

:24:04.:24:09.

far more than the Iraq Inquiry did. There is also we reason why it is

:24:09.:24:13.

not irrelevant when it comes to talking about Libby and the economy.

:24:13.:24:18.

Nick Robinson made the point about the thing of people going through

:24:18.:24:23.

bins, but the fact is that in any government, for as long as I can

:24:23.:24:27.

remember, making the right decisions about your policy choices

:24:27.:24:33.

is also influenced by how well the meatier -- influenced by how the

:24:33.:24:36.

media treats it and you. Anything that makes that healthier is good

:24:36.:24:42.

for politics. Well that every change, do you seriously think it

:24:42.:24:45.

will? Does it not happen in every democracy in the world you might

:24:45.:24:50.

yes, but it might become less poisonous. In a way, your policy

:24:50.:24:54.

was hijacked by Mr Murdoch and News International. Perhaps that will

:24:54.:25:02.

come out. I would suggest, Nick Robinson, that in the nest -- Nick

:25:02.:25:08.

Robinson, but in the rest of the media, the non National newspapers,

:25:08.:25:12.

they will be saying to Mr Murdoch, look what you have done to us, look

:25:12.:25:18.

what your behaviour has done. agree. I have a personal view, if

:25:18.:25:21.

you permit me. I have met people who were not in the News

:25:21.:25:26.

International empire who have been saying,"Isn't this great?". I have

:25:26.:25:30.

said, be careful what you wish for. This is an investigation that will

:25:30.:25:34.

expose practices that could empower people who want to hamper the press

:25:34.:25:38.

and the media, which could mean that people come for other people

:25:38.:25:42.

in the media. It is all that well to say, let us open it out, but no

:25:42.:25:48.

one knows quite where it will end. What is interesting is that when

:25:48.:25:52.

you go back to wide this was not reopened, John Yates has had lot of

:25:52.:25:56.

criticism but let us be honest, journalists like myself have had

:25:56.:26:00.

criticism for not taking it seriously enough a few months ago.

:26:00.:26:04.

Part of why I believe the police did not reopen the case, as well as

:26:04.:26:10.

other things that may be exposed, it comes to the root of your

:26:10.:26:14.

question, which is, or do not better things to be doing? There

:26:14.:26:17.

was a frustration that the political classes were dragging the

:26:17.:26:21.

police into dealing with their own dirty business and the view of the

:26:21.:26:27.

police was, sort yourself out, politicians. I have to stop you

:26:27.:26:31.

there because I have news for more important than anything you have

:26:31.:26:41.
:26:41.:26:41.

been talking about. Far more important and rather sad. Sad for

:26:41.:26:46.

us and our regular viewers. After three years, Anita is departing.

:26:46.:26:51.

She leaves behind a treasure trove of memories and great times but we

:26:51.:26:56.

have enjoyed together with the team. Here are some of them. -- that we

:26:56.:27:00.

have enjoyed. Let us see if you can remember when

:27:00.:27:10.
:27:10.:27:10.

this happened. Bon jour! That is French, don't you

:27:10.:27:15.

know? Repeat after me, argued David

:27:15.:27:21.

Lambie, happy to share a platform with me, Jo Swinson? Why you, David

:27:21.:27:26.

Lambie, happy to share a platform with me, Jo Swinson? -- are you,

:27:26.:27:30.

David Lambie. A healthy body needs a healthy mind.

:27:30.:27:40.
:27:40.:27:44.

A healthy body, needs a healthy mind.

:27:44.:27:54.
:27:54.:27:55.

I will do it again. Take two! I am talking nonsense.

:27:55.:28:00.

Are you taking over this interview, David? Let me answer another

:28:00.:28:10.
:28:10.:28:14.

question. Don't do that, it is not nice.

:28:14.:28:20.

Salut! How can you not be sad after seeing

:28:20.:28:24.

all of that. The flowers on the film was when Anita went off to

:28:24.:28:31.

have a baby. These are flowers for you, my darling. For our last

:28:31.:28:32.

programme. Thank you.

:28:32.:28:36.

What are you going to do now? I have a new show on Radio 5 Live

:28:36.:28:40.

and I will be popping up on Radio 4. You get to pick a winner.

:28:40.:28:48.

It is Josie. You were getting a mug. -- a Daily Politics mug.

:28:48.:28:54.

1945, the Euro was born. We will be back tomorrow night. I will be

:28:54.:28:58.

joined by Michael Portillo, Quentin Letts, Diane Abbott and Jon Snow.

:28:58.:29:02.

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