Browse content similar to 08/09/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to The Daily Politics. More gloomy news on | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
the UK economy as it is revealed one in seven shops have been empty | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
for a year. How can Greg be promoted? Lord Heseltine joins us. | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
Is it time to change our relationship with Europe? Many on | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
the Conservative backbenches thinks so, but will this coalition | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
Government clawback powers from Brussels? | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
They lost out in the recent Welsh Assembly elections, but we are not | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
ignoring them. Plaid Cymru has set out their stall as their party | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
conference begins. All that in the next half hour and | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
with us for the programme today is businesswoman, entrepreneur and | :01:07. | :01:13. | |
star of Dragons Den, Deborah Meaden. Welcome. Thank you. | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
Government's Banking Commission, headed by Sir John Vickers, will | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
call for the swift introduction of legislation to enact its | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
recommendations, followed by a phasing in of the reforms. It will | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
propose firewalls be erected between the High Street and | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
investment arms of the big banks, protecting taxpayers from their | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
riskier operations. The banks and some business groups had been | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
lobbying for a protracted delay to these changes. Politically, voters | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
will say a system that is set up to avoid a repeat of the banking | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
crisis, having this firewall, is desirable. What about from a | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
business point of view? completely get the emotion of it. | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
It's sounds like it makes perfect sense. I issue is that businesses | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
need to banks to lend and we do not need to introduce change that will | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
inhibit back in any way. You think it well. I worry it well. It could | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
make the retail banks more cautious. Also we go back to the root of it. | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
Lehmann Brothers was an investment bank and that got into trouble and | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
Northern Rock was a retail bank and that got into trouble. I think it | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
is about the way it is regulated as opposed to changing the structure. | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
If you do not support the idea, and it is a radical change, how worried | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
are you that the banks, even if they do not enact these | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
recommendations, how worried are you that they will start to | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
transfers increase costs on to business and people like you and me. | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
I am worried. I think the reform if it is too big a change, change | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
means costs and that will definitely be passed on to me, the | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
businesses. The simplest way of doing it is going to mean that the | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
lowest cost to me as a business. The key is to find a mechanism to | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
get the bank's lending again. are still not lending. Worse than | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
that, good businesses that are doing very well, and they should | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
not lend to businesses that are not good, but businesses doing very | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
well are finding their covenants are being changed and if they | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
dispose of assets, that money is being sucked into the bank and the | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
bank is not releasing it again. should the banks be protected, why | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
should they be bailed out by the taxpayer? Businesses like yours are | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
not. It is not the banks that are being protected. It is ultimately | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
the businesses that are being protected. They are the mechanism | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
by which we get our cash. If the banks are allowed to fail, I fail | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
as well. I think that protection is through the banks, but it is about | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
protecting the individual and those businesses. That is the only reason | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
those banks will sell. More gloomy economic news this morning as a | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
survey reveals one in seven shops in the UK have been empty for a | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
year. In some parts of the country as many as a third of retail units | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
are empty. On Tuesday the Chancellor admitted growth would be | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
sluggish for this foreseeable future, while some warn of a | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
double-dip recession. How can we left ourselves out of the worst | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
economic slowdown in living memory? First, here is Giles Dilnot. | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
It is what a fired-up economy does, it is the process by which recovery | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
comes, it is growth, the expansion of businesses and services that | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
make money. Ever since it came to power, the coalition Government has | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
peddled the idea that if you concentrated on fiscal repair, | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
deficit-reduction and monetary stability, then growth happened as | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
a result. But increasingly businesses and economists are | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
suggesting that is different from having the measures to promote | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
growth. This perceived lack of a growth strategy is starting to | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
cause a bit of frustration. Intense frustration at what is going on. I | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
see a lot of people wanting reforms and a lot of disappointment. Growth | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
has slowed quite substantially. There has been a change of mood. | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
What is needed according to the City and business is a more | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
strategic growth plan. Government can do that, since many businesses, | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
especially small ones, are necessarily to focus on getting | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
through the next month than looking at how it grows in uncertain times. | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
We have had atrocious recession. Anyone still alive now has done | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
well to fair the storm. But my belief is there are loads of | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
businesses out there that have far more potential than they are | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
fulfilling. I wonder whether there is an opportunity for us or the | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
Government as a whole to try and a support them and bring them forward | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
and say, we will give you some guidance. Not necessarily cash, but | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
good advice. Does that mean the Government being more directly | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
involved, intervening, in helping companies to grow? Does that mean | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
more use of the regional growth fund? I am sceptical about the | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
Government tried to Micra manage or determine the shape of the recovery. | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
This does not work. You cannot do that. You need a cultural | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
revolution, a different attitude in embracing growth. The Government | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
has to say we want businesses to grow and they have to do something | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
about it. That means a rowing back of employment regulations and tax | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
breaks, thing as the Chancellor could do. Where confidence is | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
turned upside down, like euro debt, he has less control of it. But in | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
the end is building breath about changing mood? What we have seen is | :07:08. | :07:17. | |
unpredictable. Tackling uncertainty is a far less exact science. I am | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
joined by Lord Heseltine, an adviser to the Government's | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
regional growth fund. Deborah Meaden is still with me. The Bank | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
of England has kept interest rates at a record historic low. It is the | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
32nd month. No real surprise. Since September 2010, the economy has | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
only grown by 0.2%. How worried I knew about growth? Well, we are all | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
worried, but that does not mean to say there are simple solutions. If | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
I was the Chancellor today, I would realise that I am living in an | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
extremely uncertain world where there are very serious downside | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
risks. The thing people want most from the Chancellor is he keeps his | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
nerve, pursues policies that keep us out of the crisis world of | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
southern Europe, and recognises there is relatively little that a | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
Government can do. That is the key. The Government has no real money to | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
spend. Interest rates are at an historic low, so you cannot go much | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
further down. The Government is leading the 50 pence top rate of | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
tax for the moment. What levers are there at George Osborne's disposal | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
to kick-start the economy? regional fund I have is an example | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
of what you can do and it has some effect. We have a �1.4 billion to | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
spend. Less than the regional development agencies. It is not | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
comparable because ours is a challenge fund. If we have �1.4 | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
billion of taxpayers' money, we are probably getting six times as much | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
private money on top of that. You will find yourself it is �8 million | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
over three years. Particularly in the more regional outlying areas | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
which we are targeting. What are you doing with it? We heard from | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
the businesses that the biggest problem is uncertainty. Does they | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
need to be more targeting by the Government and by the fund you are | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
advising on? Our fund is already effectively closed because we have | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
had so many bits and we are oversubscribed and we are now | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
allocating the cash. That is a piece of done business, but the | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
money will flow. There are very limited things Government can do, | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
but I will suggest two. First is to look through the filing cabinets of | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
Whitehall for all the decisions that are sitting in ministers' | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
offices that have not been taken and a wartime attitude that says we | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
have got to get every decision taken, either to end uncertainty, | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
or to let something go ahead. If the planning authorities did the | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
same thing, that would release a certain amount of opportunity. The | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
second thing is they can look at all the capital programmes they | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
have got and use them for a challenge purposes, competitive | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
purposes. Instead of saying, we will use a �1 building a public | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
sector has come at they would say, we have got one pound of public | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
money, what are we offered if we put it up for competition in terms | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
of additional Gearing? Does then need to be more pushing growth in | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
terms of the Government tried to spend more money, so it is not | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
focusing so much on posterity? It is trying to booze consumer demand. | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
That is using the existing levels of public expenditure to create | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
bigger demand and to loosen up money that the private sector is | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
prepared to add to what the Government has got. Do you agree | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
with his perceived lack of a growth strategy? No, I think there are all | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
sorts of politicians and commentators who have said we need | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
growth. Of course we would like to have growth. But if you are sitting | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
in a business, you know there is a massive uncertainty out there. When | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
someone says, would you like to spend money on this or that? There | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
is not the confidence to take that decision. If you are a banker, you | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
are worried about the next banking crisis. You are trying to get your | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
debts under control. All of us are holding back and until the mood | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
changes, you will not see expansion. That to me is the issue. It is | :11:49. | :11:57. | |
about perception. I have talked to a lot of small businesses and I | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
have got a nice basket of people to talk to. There was this big mood | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
when the Government first came in and we had an emergency budget and | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
it was galvanising, we have got to take some medicine. I think there | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
is a gap because now when I talk to people they feel, what now? They | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
feel like they are not being spoken to and they are not being brought | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
along. We are going to have tough times, but there is not a | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
communications. Do you think the Government's plan A is wrong? The | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
idea it is all about austerity and cuts and wage freezes, the public | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
sector losing jobs, pensions losing money. Has that got to slow down? | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
certainly do not think it was wrong when it was brought in. We had a | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
job to do and we had to do it quickly and I felt like, let's get | :12:52. | :13:00. | |
on with it. I think we have to review it, as if the country was a | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
big business. In any business you have to review what is happening. | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
Do you agree with that? Do you think George Osborne needs to look | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
at slowing down the pace of that austerity? No, what I think is what | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
I have said. They could use elements of the existing plan to | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
get bigger expenditure consequences. However, I think there is a | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
political problem. George Osborne knows that he is on the most | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
fragile of economic territory. He has to be highly irresponsible in | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
handling that. What he cannot do is give an impression that it is all | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
going to be wonderful tomorrow, because it is not going to be | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
wonderful, and he would get found out. On the other hand, if he goes | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
around saying, it is going to be rough, he would be accused of | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
undermining what little confidence there is. I agree, but when you set | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
out a business plan and things do not go according to that plan, I | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
believe you have to address that. You have to communicate that. The | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
truth is it has not gone according to plan. I am now left feeling, now | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
what? You cannot shoot off in this direction or at that direction, but | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
it is that type of communication. Most of it was right, but these are | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
the bits we need to change. A group of economists have claimed the 50 | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
pence top rate of tax makes Britain a less attractive place to invest | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
in. Do you agree with that? Yes, but I do not think it is a | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
determining factor in how the economy would respond in the next | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
six months. It was a political trap by the Labour Party to try to get | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
the Tories to fight on the electoral ground. Is he right to | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
retain it? Politically at the moment, but it has got to go as | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
soon as possible. Is it making Britain less attractive? I think | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
the facts need to ascertain whether or not it is right. We can sit here | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
and guess. If we make a decision now, it is a political decision, | :15:11. | :15:19. | |
It looks like Europe is going to become a hot issue in government | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
again. David Cameron and Nick Clegg have so far managed to keep a lid | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
on the simmering tensions in the coalition. That could be about to | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
change. Next week, up to 80 Euro- sceptic MPs are planning to meet to | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
press the Government used the crisis in the eurozone to change | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
Britain's relationship with Europe. Many want to seek a referendum. | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
There's pressure from outside with independent MEP Nikki Sinclair due | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
to hand in a 100,000 name petition to Downing Street, calling for a | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
straight in or out of vote. Lord Lawson has called for David Cameron | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
to use the current crisis as an opportunity to terror at the Lisbon | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
Treaty. He argues, enough is enough. This is worrying the Liberal | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
Democrat side of the coalition. Speaking to the New Statesman, | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
Danny Alexander called for further involvement in Europe, saying we | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
should be redoubling our effort, not looking at this as an excuse to | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
further run agenda of weakening our times. David Cameron has repeatedly | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
said this is not the time for renegotiation and stated that we | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
must have a eurozone that works. That's not exactly music to | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
Conservative backbench ears. Conservative MP Mark Reckless had | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
this to put the Prime Minister. Prime Minister has listened to | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
Liberal Democrat colleagues by delaying the police elections until | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
November next year. Will he now listen to Conservative colleagues | :16:42. | :16:49. | |
and take that opportunity to hold a referendum on Europe? A genius way | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
of putting the question. As I explained yesterday, I want us to | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
be influential in Europe about the things that matter to our national | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
interests. David Cameron. With us now is Conservative MP and Co | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
author of the book Masters of Nothing, Masters of Nothing. And | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
the chairman of the Liberal Democrat parliamentary committee on | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
parliamentary affairs, Martin Hall. Can I start with you? There is | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
clearly an happiness on the Tory backbenchers that more is not being | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
done to crawl back powers from Brussels. It's something that was | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
certainly suggested by the Government at the beginning. There | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
is growing demand for them to use the eurozone crisis to renegotiate | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
their position. Which powers do you want clawed back? Well, you know | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
that a number of a has signed a letter to the Financial Times. What | :17:37. | :17:44. | |
we are calling for is essentially to use the opportunity of the | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
current integration that Europe may have to go through, to claw back | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
the powers around employment and social legislation. It is the | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
social chapter? David Cameron has made clear there is not going to be | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
any in or out referendum. He didn't seem to answer questions yesterday. | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
What pressure can you bring to bear on him? I think the idea of the | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
referendum is a distraction. We would agree that the meeting that | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
is going to take place on Monday is not about if we are to have a | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
referendum now. I think that would be wrong and divisive. What we are | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
talking about his 80 or so Conservative Members of Parliament | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
coming-together to begin to think through what are the things that, | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
when the time is right, in six months, a year, two years time, | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
when Europe does physically consolidate, which it looks like | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
they will have to, the Chancellor has said they will probably have to, | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
and we want to be supportive, but, due to use that opportunity to | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
actually bring back powers? Alan Lib Dem coalition partners are | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
passionate about the localism agenda. The more power that we can | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
bring back locally, the better we are going forward as part of Europe, | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
supporting the European project in a healthy way. But there is no | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
signal from David Cameron that you are going to get your way or this | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
or that they will go down that path? That's not true, David | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
Cameron is on record as saying that when the opportunity arises... | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
he hasn't given a time, nothing on record to say when it will be. He's | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
effectively kicked it into the long grass? Our duty as backbenchers is | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
to do the thinking ahead of that. We don't want to be negotiating... | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
That's very good of you! Provide Liberal Democrat perspective, we | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
heard Nick Clegg giving a speech saying it's the wrong time to start | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
renegotiating, we have to support Europe. How big an issue is it | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
going to be in terms of dividing with your Tory colleagues? I don't | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
think it's a dividing line, we agree with Conservative ministers. | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
To try and inject an argument about British status within the European | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
Union, at a time when European governments are trying to | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
delicately renegotiate their way and find a path way through the | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
crisis, it's the governmental equivalent of antisocial behaviour. | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
But that is what they want to do, look at that position fairly soon? | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
Yes, backbenchers. It's not the view of Conservative ministers or | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
Liberal Democrat in the house. We've always been in favour of an | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
in or out referendum at a time of fundamental shift. We spent an | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
inordinate amount of parliamentary time creating the EU Act, which | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
creates a tough regime saying that anything changing beat relationship | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny and possibly a referendum | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
in many circumstances. That should be good enough for Conservative | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
colleagues. Good enough? I would say we are in violent agreement. We | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
are just saying that we are doing a bit of thinking. If you are going | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
to negotiate with someone, there's no point back to doing it on the | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
spur of the moment. The duty of backbenchers is to do a bit of | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
brainstorming, coming up with ideas that we can present to government | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
to say they are some of the ideas for a healthy relationship and | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
settlement with Europe. Lord Heseltine, do you welcome the | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
Liberal Democrat input on this issue in the coalition? I strongly | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
support the Prime Minister's position. His position is that of | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
every Prime Minister I'd worked for, from Harold Macmillan to Lord Hulme, | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
Ted Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major. They have all presided over | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
a close relationship with Britain and Europe. That's for one reason, | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
it is in British interests. There has always been a group of people | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
in the Labour Party, and they were against the European Common Market, | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
in the Conservative Party, there has always been a group trying to | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
frustrate the European concept. It is still there. Very well known to | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
you, obviously, because of the times during the 80s and 90s. Is it | :21:39. | :21:46. | |
different now cost and Mark --? The group of MPs that of boys and is | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
content and new MPs. They put David Cameron there. We are not talking | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
about some veteran MPs. Does that change the game and put more | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
pressure on him? It depends on how many there are and what the | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
circumstances are. Certainly when Lady Thatcher ran the Conservative | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
Party and John Major, they had a very substantial group of Euro- | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
sceptics on their backbenchers. I would say one thing, in what is an | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
extremely fragile world situation, if you want to life the tinderbox, | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
just start saying that Britain is going to start to try and | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
renegotiate their position in Europe. It's about the last thing | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
anyone wants. Day you go? I think this whole argument of Barbara you | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
Nobody is saying that we want to pull out of Europe. Even by going | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
at this issue, are you threatening the coalition's and the | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
Government's position? To be quite honest, you are saying that nobody | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
wants to pull out. All of the people that want a referendum want | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
to pull out. They think with the help of Euro-sceptic press they | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
could win a referendum. That is what it's about. They never wanted | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
a referendum when they could not win it. It's pure opportunism. | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
can't deny that, can you? I don't believe, if you take top of the | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
head reaction, some of the polling day have been bandied about, that | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
is the true picture. But that is the aim. George Eustace, one of | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
your Tory backbench colleagues, said today that David Cameron is | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
the more -- most Euro-sceptic Prime Minister they have had in a long | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
time. They think they have a way in. He also said the referendum is a | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
distraction. We're talking about using an opportunity to think | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
through what sort of relationship we want with in a healthy European | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
Union that delivers for the UK. I was a businessman before I became a | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
politician. 40% of our exports are to this market, we wanted to | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
succeed. He does have a point, people are looking at the eurozone | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
and saying it's a basket case. Isn't this the ideal opportunity? | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
Why shouldn't we look at the British position, because we are | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
being destabilised by it? If we loosened some of the ties, | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
especially as you would see it, harmful labour laws, it's the time | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
to loosen our ties with the EU? It's the worst possible time to | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
throw spanners in the works and complicate the already complicated | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
situation. The best time is when we have fundamental changes, like the | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
Lisbon Treaty or the Maastricht treaty. That is when we might have | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
missed the opportunity to have the referendum. If we want one, maybe | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
we should have one in the future at a similar time? Are you glad we | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
didn't join the euro? It's difficult in hindsight. But yes, I | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
think so. But I agree with the Prime Minister's position on the EU. | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
I'm very supportive of that. still think we should join? Given | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
the lack of fiscal discipline in the eurozone, which we can now see | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
causing enormous problems, with hindsight, I'm glad we are not in | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
there at the moment. You would like to join in the future? It if the | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
euros and sorts out its problems and applies the fiscal discipline | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
we are replying in this country now, quite rightly, which they said they | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
would apply in the eurozone, I think the debate is open-ended | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
future. Thank you very much. A poor showing for The Party for Wales and | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
the Welsh Assembly elections in May. Plaid Cymru lost four seats, coming | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
third place after the Conservatives. Ben Needham is standing down. This | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
weekend they have decamped to Llandudno to lick their wounds at | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
the party conference. I am joined by the party president. You came | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
third behind the Tories in the Welsh Assembly elections. Isn't it | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
obvious now that the Welsh have no interest at all in independence? | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
Well, we've had a very interesting year. In March, we had a tremendous | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
success in the referendum for law- making powers. In effect, that | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
makes our assembly into a parliament. That was on the | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
condition of... Up sorry, that is not about your party. The party | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
hasn't done well? A well, the party achieved that. If it wasn't for | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
Plaid Cymru, that wouldn't have happened. The results in May were | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
disappointing. We are carrying out a review and we are looking at the | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
situation. We are also entering a totally new, exciting period for | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
the party. We will be electing a new leader, as you said. | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
Politically, the situation in the UK is changing. Independence is now | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
firmly on the agenda with the SNP government in Scotland moving | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
towards a referendum. Our priority will be to ensure that Wales is not | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
left behind. That it is part of the debate and part of the process. | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
isn't it actually the difference between the SNP in Scotland and | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
Plaid Cymru in Wales, the fact that the SNP have been very successful | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
recently and Plaid Cymru had, there is no appetite for it in Wales? Are | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
you saying you are going to create an appetite for independence now? | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
Well, we are starting the debate on independence in terms of our party. | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
We want independence rather than dependence. That is the situation | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
we are in now. Particularly in a time of economic crisis, we have to | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
look at how best to build up Wales's economy, create more jobs, | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
create a sustainable economy. In the European context, this debate | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
is taking place in several countries across Europe. There are | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
other nations moving towards independence. We have to have this | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
debate with the people of Wales, the people of Wales will decide | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
which direction we take in future. But this is what we believe is best, | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
in the best interests of Wales and all of the people that live there. | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
In terms of the economy, difficult times, what distinguishes you and | :27:40. | :27:46. | |
Plaid Cymru to Labour in terms of the views towards the economy? | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
what we want to do is to look at, for example, our natural assets, | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
all of the ways in which we can develop industries based on | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
alternative energy sources and so on. We have just commissioned a | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
report which shows that, actually, in this worldwide economic crisis, | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
the small countries, small, independent countries, are working | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
together and can actually fare better than larger countries. We | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
are looking seriously at the ways in which we can develop within the | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
European Union context, if we were a member state and our own right in | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
Europe. Then we would be able to get a lot more benefits within that | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
context because the UK government is not fighting for what is in | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
Wales's interests. Gil Evans, thank you very much. Enjoy the party | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
conference. That is all for today, thanks to all of our guests, | :28:42. | :28:45. |