25/10/2011 Daily Politics

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Almost half of

Conservative backbenchers defy David Cameron to vote against the

Government and back a referendum on our relationship with Europe. We

will be assessing the fall-out from this massive Tory rebellion.

Nicolas is sick of being criticised by David. David says he will not

shut up about Europe. Silvio says he wants no lessons from Angela and

Nicolas. When the hissy fits are over, who will wield power in

Europe? It costs �4.2 billion per year, but

what are we doing to tackle the obesity epidemic? It is as stupid

to tell me to pull myself together as pointing at an alcoholic lying

in the street and telling them to quit drinking.

Coming up in the next half an hour, all of that. Derek Hatton is with

us for the duration. He supported the militant tendency when he was

leader of Liverpool City Council. I hear they were big in the 80s!

David Cameron also faced his big rebellion. How bad was it? Worse

than they thought. Let's look at what happened in closer detail.

David Cameron easily won the vote by 183 -- 483 to 111. 79 rebelled

against him, plus two tellers and two abstentions. Another 12 were

absent, giving 81 rebels. Even John Major never faced such a rebellion

over Europe when he was Prime Minister. The biggest he faced was

in 1993141 MPs voted against the Maastricht treaty. -- in 1993, when

41 MPs. 50 of the rebels on un peace since 2010, it so David

Cameron could have a rebellious party on his hands. -- 50 of them

are new MPs. People are saddened and disillusioned by being fobbed

off, as they see it, by the political elite, who always seem to

find a reason to stop them having their say. The eurozone is clearly

in crisis. To pile upon that uncertainty the further uncertainty

of a referendum on leaving the European Union, when half the

foreign direct investment coming into Britain comes from the

European Union and half of our exports go out to the European

Union, that is not responsible action for Her Majesty's Government

to take. I am not prepared to go back on my words to my constituents.

And I am really staggered, really staggered, that loyal people like

me have been put in this position. If Britain's future as an

independent country is not a proper matter for a referendum, then I

have absolutely no idea what is. This is about whether or not we

give the people, the hundreds of thousands of people that want to

have a chance to discuss this, whether we give them the chance to

have a debate. At the moment, to have a debate which might lead to a

referendum about whether Britain is going to go into the European Union

or leave it, that is such a massive distraction from the real issues

that this country and the rest of Europe has to address. It is for us

backbenchers to say to Her Majesty's Government, stiffen your

sign used, summon up the blood, imitate the action of a tiger and

that is how you should behave towards our European partners.

was the flavour of the debate. We're getting reports that the

Prime Minister is that a military base in Bedford. That is quite

ominous. Maybe he is following Gaddafi? If we hear anything from

him, we will give you the clip. We hear he is being interviewed about

the follow-up from the debate. We are joined by George Young, leader

of the House of Commons, Ann Tim Montgomerie, editor of Conservative

Home website. How bad is this rebellion? How significant for

David Cameron? I think it is very significant on two levels. Firstly,

to have 81 of your own MPs rebelling is a significant defiance.

Plus the abstentions. And the abstentions. Once you have rebelled

once, you get into the habit of defying your Government and you can

do it more easily the second or third time. I think it is about

Europe as well. Some people say the Conservative Party is more united

on Europe than it has ever been but that is not true. You could have

fooled me! The centre has definitely moved into a euro-

sceptic direction. With the new intake? We used to have Michael

Heseltine on one side, the enthusiasts, and then the euro-

sceptics on the other side. The new division is a majority of euro-

sceptics wanting fundamental and partial renegotiation. But a

significant number want to leave the European Union altogether. That

division is as big as the old one, but different. It can only be

resolved by a referendum. David Cameron cannot resolve it. You can

manage it better but it has to be resolved by a vote from the British

people and only then will they stop talking about this issue. If you

add up the abstentions, 50% of the non- pourri role Tories defied a

three-line whip. -- non- pay roll Tories. David Cameron always knew

that there would be a spread of issues on this issue and it got one

defy last night. -- has spread of opinions on this issue and it got

quantified last night. Opinions have shifted. David Cameron always

said he wanted fundamental reform of the EU, refashioning our

membership and bringing back powers. To that extent, I think the party

is united on the broader objections. What there is disagreement on is

the means. The House of Commons last night said that the concept of

a three-way referendum now was not the right way to reach the

objective that most Conservative share. Let's get this straight. How

many people wake up this morning, really giving a damp about being in

Europe? It is weighed down on anybody's priority list when they

wake up. In real terms, if you said to people... If you said to people

about Europe, they would side what I say. Either we are in, or we are

out. The problem is the mish-mash in the middle which we have had for

20 years which is so counter- productive. I think where you are

wrong is that European issues are way down the pecking order when it

is expressed in abstract terms, but when we connected with the economy,

we cannot control our borders, human rights laws, then people

actually care a lot. The idea of the European Union does not excite

them but the way it affects our future does. I want to look at the

Tory party but we do have footage of the Prime Minister are reacting

to the vote this morning. politics you have to confront the

big issues, rather than trying to sweep them under the carpet and

that is what we did yesterday. This has always been a difficult issue

for my party and it always will be but the important thing is doing

the right thing for the country and it would not be right for the

country to have an outright referendum and all the rest of it.

What I would say from last night, on my part there is no blood but, -

- no bad blood. I understand why people feel strongly and we will go

forward together and tackle the difficult decisions that the

country faces. The Prime Minister with his military escort in the

background! And some big military hardware! Maybe things are

happening and we do not know about! Tim Montgomerie, you wrote in the

Guardian this morning. You think this goes beyond Europe. You think

that David Cameron has very few favours in the bank with his

backbenchers. Talking-to the rebels yesterday, lot of them were divided

and found this difficult. But some of them took relish in poking the

Prime Minister in the eye. Lot of Conservative MPs do not feel part

of the Government. You said they enjoyed the rebellion and actively

distrusted him. They do not trust him to repatriate any powers.

did an opinion poll of grassroots members and Conservative MPs are

Conservative Home. We asked whether they thought to the Prime Minister

was serious about repatriating powers and 64% said they did not

think so. That is why people were voting for this motion to put

pressure on the Prime Minister. party does not trust the leader.

that issue. He this is a rebellious Parliament, firstly. There have

been more rebellious, especially among the newer MPs. Lots of the

MPs that I have listened to, those that voted against the party last

night, it did so with reluctance, thinking long and hard about it.

64% of the Tory MPs do not trust the Prime Minister to deliver the

bacon when it comes to Europe. back to what Derek has said. The

majority of the party is worried about other issues. They are

delighted the Prime Minister is putting grows on the agenda. If you

look at the opinion polling of the Prime Minister, he is way ahead of

his party but Ed Miliband is way behind. The standing of the Prime

Minister is robust. Let me ask you this. The Conservatives... There

was no mention of repatriation of powers. We got it wrong on the

Daily Politics. There was no mention of repatriation of powers

in the Tory manifesto. What it said was that if there was another

Lisbon Treaty, another move of giving more power to brothels, then

you would call a referendum on that. -- to Brussels. If the Germans used

the eurozone crisis to create a fiscal union, deeper integration,

which will require changes to the treaties, would you use that as a

window to repatriate powers? Prime Minister was asked this

yesterday in the House of Commons and the answer was that we do not

know what the Germans will propose. Also we do not know if there will

be total agreement between the European countries and it is simply

too soon to pose that question because we do not know what the

treaties will do. It is your party's policy now. Your party's

policy is to have a more deeper, integrated fiscal union for the

eurozone. That is what you are pushing and it is what the Germans

want. So if that happens, will you use that all were you not use that

as an opportunity to attend to repatriate powers? -- or will you

not? If there was an attempt... are kidding yourself. I need to pin

him down on this. That is not what I am asking. I know about your

policy. I am asking if there are treaty changes to accommodate your

Government's policy and the aspirations of the Germans, to

create a fiscal union within the eurozone, is that an opportunity

for you or is it not to repatriate powers? The Prime Minister answered

that question. It depends on what is proposed, how far it gets and

whether that is the right time to press our agenda, or Wetherby Road

priority is sorting out the eurozone crisis, which everybody

wants to do. -- or whether it the priority. Nick Clegg has said there

would be no repatriation of powers and renegotiation is not on the

agenda. Is that true? Look at the coalition agreement. It looks at

the balance of competencies within the EU. You of a Cabinet minister

that we have here. Can renegotiation happen or not happen

this side of the next election? could happen depending on what is

proposed in the treaty. Do you think it will? It depends what the

Germans propose, whether people agree and whether it is the right

time to push the issue. I know what I am defeated and will not get an

answer. Thank you. While Parliament is squabbling over

how closely we should be involved in Europe, the eurozone continues

to flounder. There is another summit in Brussels on Wednesday.

David Cameron is trying to come up with the big enough package to

tackle the eurozone sovereign debt crisis. They are running out of

time and the solution has to be found before the G20 meeting on

November 3rd and 4th, including a Barack Obama. An important

confidence indicator came up this morning showing that Europe is on

the brink of another recession, no more than in France. They have real

problems. When the dust has settled, we could be looking at a radically

different EU. We thought it was time to bring out the Daily

Politics wedding cake, this time at the prospect of a two or three-tier

Europe. Sitting on the top of the cake, Angela Merkel and Nicolas

Sarkozy. But he clashed with David Cameron, saying that he was sick of

being criticised and being told what to do. Nicolas Sarkozy had

tried to insist that the meeting should be restricted to the 17

eurozone leaders. But David Cameron won has battled to make sure that

all 27 member states would attend, but only for one-hour meeting

before the 17 broke away separately the final negotiations. Angela

Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy have also looked down from their lofty

position to tell Silvio Berlusconi to take more radical measures to

tackle Italy's huge debt. He hit back after being humiliated in this

way. Now there are suggestions that the two or three-tier Europe could

be formalised as soon as December with a soupy eurozone excluding

members like the UK. -- Super eurozone. Some members might like

to join this but it could leave the UK with less influence. Nick Clegg

I have always advocated a vote on Europe. We don't know what the

Germans are proposing. If you listen to them talking, it is a

very technical tweak in the treaty, many other countries oppose it. We

should stop tilting at windmills about threats and challenges which

simply are not there right now. Nick Clegg, quite categorical that

for him it is not on the agenda this side of the election, which

may be why David Cameron doesn't really want to create a big fight

about this because he knows it may split the coalition apart. We are

joined by the Conservative MP george, who tried to table a

conciliatory amendment to last night's vote. In the end the

government said they were not doing that. Therefore he abstained.

Welcome. Are you comfortable with your government pours policy now,

urging a deeper fiscal integration for the euro-zone? I think it is

more of a decision for those countries in the euro-zone. They

understand that but are you comfortable with the government?

They are right - if the Euro is to succeed, they need to integrate

more deeply. We knew that, it was one of the main arguments against

Britain joining the euro. Unless there is a political acceptance of

that within countries like Germany and France, it will cause future

problems. It was one thing for the German public to integrate with

East Germany and take on board the liability, but will they want to

have mutual liability with countries like Italy and Greece.

That is not what I want to get into this morning. Are you comfortable

advocating an approach for the 17 of the euro-zone that we would not

be part of ourselves? We are really saying, you go for it but we will

not be part of it. I think we should not be telling them what to

do. You agree with Nicolas Sarkozy? I wouldn't put it the way he does,

but it is a big political decision for them to have a fiscal union.

is a joke, he is sitting there.... I am saying you are either in or

out. He will have no influence whatsoever, it is a gesture.

don't need it because we have control of our own economy. How can

we have control of our own economy? It turned out it was a good boat to

miss during the euro, we did the right thing. There is only one

interviewer when I am doing these things. George Eustice, are you

clear in your mind that if the euro-zone comes to an agreement

over sovereign debt involving the 17, does that agreement have to be

approved by the 27? I think it does. I think we do, and we have to stop

trying to find a way to not talk about this and confront the issue.

The reason we are in this mess is because deeper integration has been

a failure and we need to have this debate. Rather than saying there

won't be a treaty because no other countries want one, Britain should

be saying we want the treaty and we want to confront this issue. It is

tied up in getting the economy going again. We have the burden of

new EU laws every week. A let's assume for this discussion that is

true, all the more bizarre that it is almost impossible to work out

what your party's policy is now. was trying to find out from George

Young, what is your understanding of the policy? If the Europeans go

down this road, isn't that an opening to start repatriating past

London? It is clear in the agreement that we would examine the

competences of the European Union, that is why my amendment called for

a White Paper to fulfil that commitment. But the coalition

agreement refers to powers going to the EU as a whole. That is not what

is on the cards at the moment. What is on the cards is at the euro-zone

getting more powers for itself. I asked again, if that happens, is

that the Government's opportunity to repatriate power or not? What

the coalition agreement says is that it would examine the existing

competences of the EU. So what is the answer to my question? That

that is our policy. The government should be producing a white paper.

If George Young could not tell me that, he said it depended on the

nature of the euro-zone renegotiation. My position is that

if they reintegrate more deeply, this is an opportunity to have a

fresh start. I am not here to speak on behalf of the government, this

is my personal view. At times of crisis, the future belongs to those

with a plan. It is a problem that cost �4.2 billion a year and

affects a quarter of the population - obesity is an urgent issue, but

have governments been taking the right step to tackle it?

Not according to Derek Hatton, who has a personal interest in

addressing the issue. We have been speaking to one woman who faces up

to what she describes as an addiction. I am in a lot of pain

are a lot of the time. It depends if I am having a good or a bad day,

but my back aches, my shins ached. Walking to the bus-stop is a chore,

and on top of that there is the emotional pain. People avoid

catching your eye and avoid sitting next to you on the bus. When I feel

bad about myself I get over emotional, and then I eat too much.

Emma Burnell has been struggling with food and her weight since she

was a teenager. Being fat makes her on happy and she is trying to lead

a healthier life. She is getting counselling, but public health

officials concerned about obesity don't even appear to understand the

problem. Most people will go out and have too much to read, or eat a

burger when they know they should be eating a sell land. -- a salad.

It is when it becomes over reliance, that is when you have a problem.

How common is that? In my opinion, I don't want to talk to everybody

who feels and looks like me, but inappropriate relationships with

food is extremely common but an extremely hidden aspect of our

society. At the government recently launched a new strategy to deal

with obesity, they want us as a country to eat 5 billion fewer

calories each day. In what has been dubbed as a call to action, they

want us to eat less and be more active. Most of it is really

patronising. Education is important, of course, but I am a very bright

woman. I have a university degree, I work in a high Lovell job, and I

know that basically the way to lose weight is through diet and exercise

but it is more complicated. When I hear people saying pull yourself

together, it is just diet and exercise, it is as stupid as

pointing to an alcoholic and telling them to quit drinking.

I am joined by the shadow health minister Diane Abbott and Derek

Hatton. She is saying it is an addiction, and illness. Obesity is

not the disease, it is a disgrace. People have choices, and if people

are obese, in the vast majority, it is either because they eat too much

or they don't exercise enough. That is true, but the worry I have when

you hear people like that is it is almost ignoring that as a fact.

What you do to get to that stage is a discussion we can have. At the

end of the day, the reality is you are eating too much and not

exercising enough. You listen to that goal, it is almost as if it is

a big addiction, there is no way I can get out of it. You can, stop

eating and start exercising. people need help in that sense. In

2010, a report said significant progress in cutting hospital

waiting times have been undermined by failing to tackle obesity. Not

enough was done - do you accept that? Yes, we could have done more.

It leads to diabetes, cancer, strokes, high blood pressure, and

it cost the health service millions. What sort of public health campaign

should be done? Do they achieve anything? Some of the money that

was spent was wasted on leaflets and the rest of it, but I have seen

interesting programmes in schools where you work with individual

children and families around being more active and looking at what

they all lead. When you have a fat child, the family has bad eating

habits generally. Things like banning trans fats, which are no

good to anybody, and when the government says it is about

personal choice and control, that is wrong. What about the dependency

culture this government seems to want to tackle, do you think that

has led to high rates of obesity? I'd do. I think that over the years

people have sat back and thought people will do this for us.

they want gastric bounds. People have got to do it themselves. In

some ways it is against the political line I would have taken

before, but people have to realise they have power over them own lives.

I am involved in a campaign to get people to use their bicycle to go

to work. You talk to the employers of those people with bikes, and

they say they get a more diligent workforce, a much more keen work

force and a happier workforce. People have got to realise that

when they start getting healthier, they are in many ways ready to take

on the world. Do you agree with the government to use more stick and

less carrot? Jamie Oliver and others, all of those specialist in

the field say the Government's so- called obesity strategy is rubbish.

It is relying too much on multinationals and fast food

manufacturers to do the right thing, and not enough providing practical

help like schemes like Derek's. We need a proper strategy, people need

real help. Carrots for lunch, biking home?