Browse content similar to 09/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks, this is the Daily Politics. Is Theresa May losing | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
control of Passport Control? The pressure is still firmly on the | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
Home Secretary today. Last night the head of the UK Border Force | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
quit claiming Mrs May had misled Parliament. He's also mounting a | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
claim for constructive dismissal. The Home Secretary is sticking to | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
her guns. The Government is facing a tough day in Parliament today | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
starting with Prime Minister's Questions. We will have all the | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
action live at midday. The party's over. Silvio Berlusconi | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
says he will step down. But only after he's pushed through economic | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
reforms. What next for Italy and for the eurozone? | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
Should you, me, every other taxpayer help political parties | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
with their fund-raising? We speak to a Liberal Democrat peer who | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
thinks state-funding is a jolly good idea. | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
As Presidents Obama and Sarkozy make a public boo-boo, we ask what | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
microphone gaffes really teach us about the true state of politics. | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
A boo-boo? Yes. Was Yogi Bear there as well?! LAUGHTER It will be an | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
action-packed 90 minutes of quality daytime TV here on BBC Two. It is | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
worth the licence fee on its own. One licence fee it's worth! With us | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
today to share in this feast of news are two of Westminster's | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
average-sized beasts. The Universities Minister, David | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
Willetts. They used to call him "two brains". Some say he's lost | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
one! One of the new members of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet, Michael | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
Dugher. A crazy name, a crazy guy. I don't know what they call him! | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
Seeing as we have the Universities Minister here, let's kick-off with | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
that. Why don't we? Thousands of students are marching through | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
London today to demonstrate against higher university tuition fees. | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
They are planning to march to the City of London where a protest has | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
also been taking place outside St Paul's Cathedral. Last year, | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
student prosests resulted in -- protests resulted in violent | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
clashes right here in Westminster. They are authorised to use plastic | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
bullets if necessary. Mark Bergman is one of the students protesting. | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
He is a member of the NUS National Executive Committee. How confident | :02:47. | :02:54. | |
are you that there won't be violence? The threats of the police | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
of using rubber bullets of possibly using water cannons should mean | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
there should be public outrage amongst parents, the trade union | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
movement and amongst everyone who defends civil liberties in this | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
country. The threat of violence by the police is totally unacceptable. | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
What about violence on the side of the students protesting? Any | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
clashes... The students have shown over the last couple of months, | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
over the last 12 months, that they ultimately are defending our | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
democratic right, they are defending the welfare state and are | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
fighting for each and everyone under attack. What about in terms | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
of what you are precisely protesting against? Now we have | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
heard that one in five universities want to charge less in terms of | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
fees and bursaries. You must be pleased about that? Well, 75% of | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
all the universities now have agreed to set their fee levels at | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
�9,000. What we will see is a privatised university system which | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
on the one hand will provide courses such as philosophies and | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
humanities for the rich and we are seeing how London Metropolitan | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
University, an institution with more black students than the entire | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
Russell Group put together being stripped of its assets. What is | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
your response to this idea that now universities are reconsidering the | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
levels of fees and bursaries that they are going to charge? They are | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
probably going to charge less than that �9,000 fee that you have just | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
said? The students movement has always made it clear that we | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
principally stand on the basis of free education. The free education | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
is a principle that whether you are five, whether you are 15, or | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
whether you are 50, you should have the right to access higher | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
education and the fact that some universities are now turning around | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
and saying we will decrease our fees level just means they are | :04:47. | :04:57. | |
coming under increasing pressure to oblige to the market. Thank you. | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
You happy that the police could open fire on students today? | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
want to see peaceful demonstrations. People have a right to demonstrate | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
peacefully. The police have operational decisions to take. | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
After the events a few months back they will be concerned if there is | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
violence from protesters. I hope we can avoid that. Are rubber bullets | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
the right way to go about it? That has to be more than an operational | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
decision? That must be something the Government must have a say in? | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
I have to say what we want to see is peaceful protests... | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
understand that. Stkpwhri I'm very happy - the crucial thing is to -- | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
I'm very happy - the crucial thing is... Education has to be paid for | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
by someone. It is going to be paid for by graduates when they are | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
earning more than �20,000 a year. I think we have a progressive | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
proposal. I would be very happy to carry on arguing that case in any | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
democratic forum. I understand that. This is a democratic and open forum. | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
You told this programme many moons ago that only a handful of | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
universities would charge the �9,000 top fee and that turns out | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
not to be the case - 50 of them are charging it? You told us that, | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
didn't you? We said that we were expecting universities to reach a | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
decision on what their fees should be, if they wanted to go above | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
�6,000 they would have to get agreement. We ended up with the | :06:34. | :06:42. | |
majority of students will not be facing fees of �9,000. The average | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
fee is �8,100. What is the difference from that �9,000 if you | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
are a student? For them, the crucial question is what their | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
repayments will be. They will be paying 9% of their earnings when | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
they are earning more than �20,000. On a Government website on the 9th | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
November 2010 it said the following: In exceptional cases | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
universities will be able to charge higher contributions, up to �9,000 | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
limit. 50 universities are not exceptional cases. Wouldn't it be - | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
it may be right, it may be wrong. For the sake of plain-speaking and | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
the democratic debate, surely you should say, "We got that bit | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
wrong"? What we got right was expecting of universities that if | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
they want to go above six, they had to agree an access agreement. The | :07:40. | :07:47. | |
vast majority will not be facing fees of �9,000. Ed Miliband was | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
quite tempted to go out and talk to the protesters last time. Is he | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
going to go and dodge a bullet today? All of us want to see a | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
peaceful protest from the students today. We understand their real | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
concerns. One... Are you on their side? I'm against the fact that | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
tuition fees are �9,000. The Government could do more. You could | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
reduce the fees to �6,000, by a third, if you didn't give the | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
bankers the corporation tax cut this year, also if you charged a | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
little bit more interest for those earning over �65,000. There is | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
something you could do. The big worry is the fact that applications | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
from British students fell by 12% in this autumn and I think it's | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
obvious now that contrary to what the Government has said before it | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
is deterring people from going to university. These students are | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
marching for no fees. Are you on their side for no fees? No, we have | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
said there shouldn't be a �9,000... You said there should be �6,000? | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
The Government could step in and get that number down. Is that still | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
part of Labour policy? Of course. It is? It looked like an aspiration | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
last time? We have said that at the party conference. You think �6,000 | :09:05. | :09:13. | |
would stop the marches? It would go a long way to help. The Government | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
said before that there wouldn't be a detrimental impact in terms... | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
Regardless of whether the fees are �6,000 or �9,000, it is the | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
repayment rate. Your proposal doesn't affect the monthly | :09:26. | :09:33. | |
repayments from graduates which will be lower under our proposals. | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
Jo? Our two guests probably know you shouldn't say anything you | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
might regret when you are in the vague proximity of a microphone. | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
Pity no-one told President Sarkozy and Obama who let slip some | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
unfortunate comments about the Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
Netanyahu. Theirs... The French press got together to agree not to | :09:55. | :10:03. | |
make public. I went on two websites. Thank you, the French media. They | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
were asked not to put their microphones on because President | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
Sarkozy and Obama were going to have a private conversation. Here | :10:10. | :10:20. | |
:10:20. | :10:38. | ||
is a reminder of some of the best Blair, what you doing? You leaving? | :10:38. | :10:48. | |
:10:48. | :10:50. | ||
Don't speak before I call your name. Pretend... Pretend it was like the | :10:50. | :11:00. | |
:11:00. | :11:28. | ||
Everything, she's the sort of It is very funny of course... | :11:28. | :11:37. | |
Sorry! LAUGHTER You are on air! does the President sound like | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
Schwarzenegger? It is funny. That gaffe is quite serious, isn't it? | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
In terms of diplomatic relations, that is a total breach of trust in | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
dealing with the Israeli Prime Minister? It can be very serious. | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
Serious for the poor so-and-so who works for them that forgot to | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
switch off the microphone. worked for Gordon Brown, of course, | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
but not at the time of the Gillian Duffy gaffe? I was in Barnsley | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
watching it on the telly at the time. Your heart sinking? You could | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
argue... Glad that I wasn't there. What did it do to Gordon Brown? It | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
had serious consequences for him? It did. I don't think it was the | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
fact that it was recorded, it is about what you say and I think that | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
was the problem in that instance. It is why Gordon immediately | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
apologised and it wasn't our finest hour. Yes. David Willetts, that is | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
the point. You can apologise, and it is embarrassing. Doesn't it | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
reveal the true nature of politicians in those private | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
moments? I don't think so. You get a different angle on politicians. | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
Is it the true one? In my experience, when politicians are | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
talking privately with the leader from another country, they don't | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
spend all their time bad mouthing foreign leaders. I don't think it | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
was a typical exchange. Is it then the only time we get to find out | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
what politicians are thinking? see a different side of them, don't | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
you? Often when you are just finishing an interview, that is the | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
point when people start relaxing, the microphones are still on and | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
they can be caught out. Everybody has to be allowed some opportunity | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
for some kind of private communication, some kind of | :13:28. | :13:29. | |
relaxation. We don't want politicians who are so straight- | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
laced they are permanently on guard. Is there a chance people might | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
think they are only human after all? I think they probably do. Most | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
people might make a comment about a colleague, you might say something | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
about Andrew that you wouldn't necessarily want broadcasting... | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
Never! I don't think that has ever happened! Have you ever been caught | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
out? Not yet. There's time. We are working on it. David? I was trying | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
to think - I am sure there is some terrible gaffe... You must have | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
said privately how dare all these universities go for �9,000 a year? | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
Sitting in my office occasionally, who knows, as one delivers these | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
exceptional higher education reforms. A thought of frus trace | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
might have passed -- frustration might have passed through my mind. | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
That is the closest we will get to the truth! Italian ten-year bonds | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
have reached 7%. The highest since the euro area was founded in 1999. | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
It is a significant benchmark and it puts Italy in real difficulties. | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi announced he would resign yesterday | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
but only after Parliament passes urgent pwhudge et reforms. He's | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
also ind -- budget reforms. He's also indicated he won't stand in | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
any future elections. Meanwhile, an EU team is due in Rome today to | :15:01. | :15:09. | |
begin monitoring how Italy plans to cut its rising budget debt. I'm | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
joined by Bill Emmott, former editor of the The Economist. | :15:14. | :15:22. | |
Let's do the politics then go on to the significance of the Italian | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
bonds. Mr Berlusconi said he would go but only after the reforms are | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
put through. Should we be suspicious he really will go? | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
think Silvio Berlusconi is the kind of politician who thinks there's | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
always another chance. He has bought a little bit more time, he | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
thinks. He can talk to the people who he described yesterday as | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
traitors and tried to buy them back again and hope that the bond | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
markets reward him for saying that he is going to go, but I think we | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
see today, in the markets, they are not rewarding him. They want him to | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
go now. It is the message of James Cardle from the Clinton | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
administration, who said, when he died he really wanted to be | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
reincarnated not as the Pope, but the bond market, because it was all | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
powerful. Finally Silvio Berlusconi has met his match, the bond market. | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
It's only all powerful because the politicians borrow so much. If they | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
didn't borrow, they wouldn't matter to them. We are proceeding on the | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
basis that if Mr Berlusconi goes, Italy gets a fresh start. I would | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
suggest to you that that is not the case. And the bond markets have | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
already got that. They do know that, and the point is, it's like the old | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
Irish story, you wouldn't start from here. Ah yes we would! | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
only thing that makes me feel slightly sorry for Silvio | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
Berlusconi is he is not responsible for the debt as it was built up in | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
the seventies and eighties by politicians what are running | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
British-style budget deficits of 10 %, annually, year after year, but | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
the point about Silvio Berlusconi is that he has been in power for | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
nine years altogether out of the last 70, eight of the last 11 and | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
he has done nothing to reduce the debt -- the last 17. He has not | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
made any reforms. This businessman who was going to show you how to | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
run a country has done nothing except run the country in his own | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
interests. That is why he has to go. There is a great deal of faith in | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
Greece and Italy being put on a technocratic government, talk of | :17:35. | :17:42. | |
the former governor of the Bank of Greece coming back into Greece, and | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
talks of X EU commissioner Monte coming back to the Prime Minister | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
of Italy. I would suggest putting technocrats in it might seem fine | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
and they will know what they are doing, but they will have no | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
democratic legitimacy to do some very, very painful things. For I | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
think that is absolutely right. It's a very short-term solution. | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
For Commissioner Monte, or whoever else, it is a hospital pass. You | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
are basically being asked to do this because the politicians don't | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
won the unpopularity. That means it is short-term. It can only last six | :18:19. | :18:28. | |
or nine months at most, as it did in Italy in 1993 when the Governor | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
of the Bank of Italy was brought in as a technical governor and did a | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
lot of reforms in one year, but then the whole thing collapsed. | :18:34. | :18:41. | |
That is going to happen again, I would say. The significant point of | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
the 7% benchmark, that means that the debtor is expensive and they | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
have the biggest number of bombs after America and Japan in the | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
world. When Portugal and Greece hit this mark, they had to go for a | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
bail-out. I would suggest there are two problems with this now. 1, | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
Italy is much bigger and will need a bigger bail-out, and secondly, | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
whatever Mrs Merkel and Mr Sarkozy say, there is no bail-out fund. | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
There is no bail-out fund of this size, nor that the German, Dutch | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
and French voters will permit to take on liability for the Italian | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
debt. The real solutions after the Italian solutions. And the IMF | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
buying some time. You can buy time by rolling over the dead. Italy's | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
in a better position than Greece or Portugal is that the debt is in a | :19:34. | :19:43. | |
long immaturity. 300 billion of it becomes up for maturity next year. | :19:43. | :19:51. | |
It's only 300 billion! Less have a whip-round. Is it now British | :19:51. | :19:57. | |
government policy that given that there is no bail-out fund and the | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
financial leveraging, we've not seen the light of day of that. Is | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
it government policy that the ECB, the European Central Bank, contrary | :20:05. | :20:14. | |
to what the Germans want, should become the lender of last resort? | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
We want to see more serious progress, which could have -- into | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
the role for the ECB, but greater moves towards fiscal discipline in | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
the euro-zone. Is it Leiba's policy that the ECB should become the | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
lender of last resort -- Labour's policy. That would make it harder | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
to rescue countries like Italy. we want to see institutions like | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
the EC be stepping up to the plate, and Labour as well. This is | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
something that the Eurozone has to face up to. I think what you need | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
is the ECB honouring their responsibility. Should it be the | :20:49. | :20:57. | |
lender of last resort? I'm not asking about that. Is it your | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
polish sheet then it should be the lender of last resort? -- policy. | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
It should be the role of the member states in the EU. This is something | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
that the Germans and friends have to face up to. I am grateful to do | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
that -- or that but it has nothing to do with what I asked you. Do you | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
think the Germans will every agree to this? And it provoked the | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
Germans into changing their mind about their attitude to the ECB? | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
doubt it. I would not bet in favour of it. Germans will not vote for | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
the government that does this, that is the trouble. You never know, | :21:30. | :21:37. | |
Apocalypse Now, and you produce a new political environment, but now | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
they would not vote for it. Bill, thank you for that. We will have to | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
sign you up because they will be a lot of this going on. I think you | :21:44. | :21:54. | |
:21:54. | :21:57. | ||
are right. Mr Berlusconi says he's going to retire and when that | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
happens you normally get a fountain pen or a carriage clock or a litre | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
of fine whisky in a critical -- crystal decanter. Edinburgh Crystal, | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
in fact. When you have been the President of Italy, actually the | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
Prime Minister, who writes the scripts? When you have been the | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
prime minister, the President is different from Mr Berlusconi. | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
Napolitano is the President, Berlusconi is the prime minister. | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
The confusing thing is that he is call the President of the council. | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
Maybe they were being clever. would probably either one be | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
showered with fountain pens, carriage clocks and bung a bunker | :22:42. | :22:49. | |
parties. So what would you want as a leaving present? How about a | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
Daily Politics mug? Yes, these little babies would not look out of | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
place at a poolside at one of these parties. So, Silvio, I am sending | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
Joe to Rome to hand deliver one of these. You lucky, lucky man. You be | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
careful with it. I once danger money for that. We will remind you | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
how to enter in a minute, but let's see if you can remember when this | :23:12. | :23:22. | |
:23:22. | :23:31. | ||
How do you feel about the loss of the Times this morning? I will miss | :23:31. | :23:41. | |
:23:41. | :23:59. | ||
One woman came in and asked for 20 a loads? Were you able to supply | :23:59. | :24:09. | |
:24:09. | :24:43. | ||
To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
answer to our special quiz e-mail address - that's [email protected]. | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
our website. That's bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics. Now, it's | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
coming up to midday. Let's have a look at Big Ben. That means PMQs is | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
on the way. And Nick Robinson is here. Welcome to our programme, | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
Nick. Now, the row engulfing the Home Secretary is likely to be the | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
main thrust of the exchanges. And it doesn't look like the pressure | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
on the Home Secretary will end there. The Commons will debate a | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
Labour motion later today calling on the Government to publish all | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
the details that ministers gave to the UK Border Agency. Jo, just | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
bring us up to speed on who is saying what. Who's been in charge | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
at passport control? That's the question everybody at Westminster | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
is asking today. The Home Secretary said yesterday that she did | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
authorise a 'pilot' scheme to relax border checks for some passengers | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
arriving in the UK over the summer, but that she had not authorised | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
wider relaxation of controls, which only a minister could do. But she | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
was contradicted by the Border Force chief, Brodie Clark, who | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
dramatically resigned last night. He issued a statement disputing Mrs | :25:52. | :25:59. | |
May's version of events. He said, "The Home Secretary suggests that I | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
added additional measures, improperly, to the trial of our | :26:01. | :26:11. | |
:26:11. | :26:11. | ||
risk-based controls: I did not." "The Home Secretary also implies | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
that I relaxed the controls in favour of queue management. I did | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
not". But Brodie Clark's boss, Rob Whiteman says Clark "admitted" to | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
him that he "authorised staff to go further than ministerial | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
instruction". But in his statement Clark also says that the measures | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
have been in place since 2008, which might just get him and the | :26:25. | :26:33. | |
Home Secretary both off the hook. David Willetts, in October of this | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
year, less than a month ago, 11th October, the Prime Minister said | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
"we will reclaim our borders. We will get a grip on immigration in | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
this country. Real limits, proper enforcement, real control over how | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
many people come here and who.". That was that you had already open | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
the borders to EU citizens. decision that ministers took was | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
the piloting a scheme to make a risk assessment of people coming | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
into the country and it was absolutely not opening of borders. | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
That was not any decision that the Home Secretary table. It took was a | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
pilot Why did you include every airport in the country? It was | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
being trial on certain groups of people and the aim was that the | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
people working at the borders agency should be able to exercise | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
some judgment in a very small number of the tests applied. | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
understand that, but if you say to a certain group of people it apply | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
to everyone in what we call the European economic Area, which is | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
all of the 27 countries in the EU, plus Switzerland, Norway and other | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
ones that I forget. It is a pretty the group of people. These people | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
could come in without proper checks, and yet, you're Prime Minister says, | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
even after all that has happened, we will reclaim Al borders. Real | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
control over how many people come here and who. That is absolutely | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
not what was being piloted. What was piloted was the use by border | :28:03. | :28:09. | |
agency officials of some risk assessment by them so that if, for | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
example, a school party was coming through they had some discretion | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
into which tests they applied and most of them were applied in those | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
cases. You were not applying the biometric tests, correct? They | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
could take a specific discretionary choice, the biometric data was one | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
thing and that it is only a second photograph. But that is not opening | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
up the borders, and that is precisely why the Home Secretary | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
was so shocked. She is the one who says she cannot tell us get in | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
illegally this summer. If that is not opening of borders, what is? | :28:47. | :28:56. | |
Not knock. Who's there? Coming. -- come in. We know that the pilot | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
actually increased by 10 % the number of illegal immigrants | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
detected. What a cause she cannot know, and I hope the investigation | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
will discover this, is what happened as a result of this | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
completely unlicensed decision by the guy running the borders. | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
Michael de deux, I'm not sure why you are making such a song and | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
dance. In 2008, under a Labour government, you did not suspend | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
what the Tories suspended, you suspended the warning index checks | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
on the people coming in. You did that, with people who were risk, | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
you suspended cheques. The reason why we are making a song and dance | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
about it is because we thought Theresa May was incredibly | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
complacent and out of touch when she could not tell us how many | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
people came in unchecked because of a decision she took. But you | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
suspended checked -- checks on 100 occasions. We had 1,000 more | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
immigration officers and every single year we tightened up. | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
suspended it over 100 times. introduce the biometrics on every | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
visa, more immigration officers. 2004, local managers at Heathrow | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
decided there would be all open controls and no checks whatsoever | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
made. That was under you. Every year we endeavoured to tighten up | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
the Czechs. The government took a decision to relax the cheques this | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
summer and then took a decision not to check it. You never relaxed any | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
of the checking? I was told by a former immigration minister he | :30:27. | :30:37. | |
:30:37. | :30:40. | ||
would meet the scene like this in this case. There will be a lot of | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
ammunition to throw around. truth is, in terms of impression, | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
the government has paid a price. Look at the cartoonists today, they | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
show Osama Bin Laden wandering through passport control and they | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
have paid a price. The question is, is there a fatal fact. So far | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
bought a razor maker there isn't. Here is Prime Minister's Questions | :30:59. | :31:08. | |
He had already proved himself to be a dedicated and courageous soldier. | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
He has made the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the British | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
people and we should send our deepest condolences to his family | :31:15. | :31:22. | |
and friends. This week, we will have lost their lives in defence of | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
our country so we can enjoy peace and freedom. We are humbled by the | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
sacrifice they have made. This morning, I had meetings with | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
ministerial colleagues and others and I shall have further such | :31:32. | :31:41. | |
meetings later today. May I add my tribute to the Prime Minister's | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
about the death of Private Matthew Haseldin of 2nd Battalion The | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
Mercian Regiment. Does he think telling 25 million workers they | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
have no job security will boost or reduce consumer confidence? Clearly, | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
what we have to do is make it easier for firms to hire people. | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
That is why we have scrapped Labour's jobs tax, that is why we | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
have taken a million of the lowest paid people out of tax. That is why | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
we have established new rules so you can only go to a tribunal after | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
working somewhere for two years and that's why we have introduced fees | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
for claims in employment tribunals to stop these claims. We are | :32:22. | :32:31. | |
apprenticeships all as a way of helping to give young people jobs. | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband. Speaker, can I join the Prime | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
Minister in paying tribute to Private Matthew Haseldin from 2nd | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
Battalion The Mercian Regiment? He showed immense courage trying to | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
protect local people and our thoughts are with his family and | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
friends. With troops serving in conflict overseas, it is more | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
important that we honour this weekend in Remembrance Sunday all | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
of those who have served our country and are indeed serving our | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
country today. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister tell us how many | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
people entered the UK under the Home Secretary's relaxed border | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
controls? The figures for the period between August 2010 and | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
August 2011 for the number of people who entered the country are | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
published in the normal way. The figures I do have is that the | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
number of people arrested was up by 10% and the number of drug seizures | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
was markedly up and the number of firearms seizures was up by 100%. I | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
think we should be clear about what did and what did not happen here. | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
First, the Home Secretary did agree a pilot for a more targeted | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
approach to border control, this was for people within the European | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
Economic Area. It allowed better targeting of high-risk people and | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
less for others, notably children. This did not compromise security. | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
This was an operational decision but one I fully back and think that | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
she was right to take. But, second - and this is important - decisions | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
were taken to extend this beyond the European Economic Area | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
nationals, this was not authorised by the Home Secretary. Indeed, when | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
specific permission was asked for, it was not granted. Let me just say, | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
this did not mean our borders were left undefended. Passports | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
continued to be checked. As this was an authorised action, as it was | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
contrary to what the Home Secretary agreed, it is right that the head | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
of the Border Force was suspended. I back that action completely. | :34:35. | :34:44. | |
:34:45. | :34:45. | ||
Speaker, it is just not good enough. The Prime Minister can't tell us | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
how many people, how many millions of people were let in under the | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
relaxed border controls agreed by the Home Secretary. Mr Speaker, | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
isn't it totally unacceptable that the Home Secretary chose to relax | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
border controls in July and even yesterday she could not tell us | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
which airports and ports it applied to, how many took it up and for how | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
long. She provided those figures and the figures for the number of | :35:17. | :35:25. | |
arrests are as follows. Firearms, 100 increase in seizures. Illegal | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
immigrants 10% increase in arrest. Forged documents, 48% increase. The | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
simple fact that the right honourable gentleman has to accept | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
- and everyone has to accept - is this: Is the head of the UK Border | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
Agency, Rob Whiteman, who also didn't know that this unauthorised | :35:41. | :35:49. | |
action was taking place, he said this - it is very important for the | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
House to understand: Brodie Clark admitted to me on 2nd November that | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
on a number of occasions this year he authorised his staff to go | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
further than ministerial action. I therefore suspended him from his | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
duties. In my opinion it was right for officials to have recommended | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
the pilot so we focus attention on higher risk to our border. It is | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
unacceptable that one of my senior officials went further than was | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
approved. That is why he was suspended. That is why the Home | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
Secretary backed that decision. It is an important issue to understand | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
that Brodie Clark was suspended by the head of the UK Border Agency. | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
It was a decision quite rightly taken by him, backed by the Home | :36:33. | :36:40. | |
Secretary, backed by me. Isn't it utterly typical, Mr Speaker, when | :36:40. | :36:49. | |
things go wrong, it is nothing to do with them? | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
THE SPEAKER: Order. Let me emphasise there are members on both | :36:54. | :37:01. | |
sides of the House shouting their heads off. Members of Youth | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
Parliament last Friday... Order! Order! Who spoke brilliantly and | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
passionately disagreed with each other but they didn't shout at each | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
other. Mr Ed Miliband? Mr Speaker, what did the Home Secretary say in | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
the past when she was in opposition when things went wrong on | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
immigration? She said, "I'm sick and tired of Government Ministers | :37:24. | :37:31. | |
who simply blame other people when things go wrong." Now the Prime | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
Minister said yesterday in his evidence to the Liaison Committee | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
about the relaxation of border controls in the last few months, | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
"Clearly, it's not acceptable and it's not acceptable it went on for | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
so long." Mr Speaker, why did the Home Secretary allow it to happen? | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
On the one hand, he is trying to blame me for not taking | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
responsibility and quote my words "taking responsibility" and saying | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
what isn't acceptable. I have to say having a lecture in | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
responsibility from a party that trebled immigration, that let an | :38:08. | :38:15. | |
extra 2.2 million people into our country, that allowed everyone from | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
Eastern Europe to come here with no transitional controls, that built | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
up a backlog of 500,000 asylum claims and no apology about it. | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
Even today, when the Leader of the Opposition is asked whether too | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
many people were let into our country, his answer was very simple | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
- no. Mr Speaker, he's been the Prime Minister for 18 months. He | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
can't keep saying, "It's nothing to do with me." It is his | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
responsibility. A month ago, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister gave a | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
speech on boarder controls called Reclaiming Our Borders. Mr Speaker, | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
while he was boasting about reclaiming our borders, his Home | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
Secretary was relaxing our borders. Doesn't the Prime Minister think he | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
should at least have known? pilot that the Home Secretary | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
introduced meant more arrests, more firearms seized, more forged | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
documents found. That is the truth of it. The fact is that officials | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
went further than Home Office Ministers authorised, that is what | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
is wrong, that is why someone had to be suspended. That was the right | :39:23. | :39:31. | |
decision. He asks what we have done. Let me tell him. We are completing | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
e-borders so every flight will be checked from next April. We got the | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
first six months of this year, we seized more drugs than in the whole | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
of last year. Last year, we rejected 400,000 applications for | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
visas. We turned away 68,000 people without the correct documents. I'm | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
determined we have tough border controls and finally we have a Home | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
Office and an Immigration Minister that want to cut immigration. | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
Speaker, anyone listening to the Prime Minister would think his | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
policy has been a great success. It is a fiasco! It is a complete | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
fiasco! Now the one thing he can't claim to know anything about is | :40:13. | :40:20. | |
cuts to the UK Border Force. Can he confirm how many UK Border staff | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
are going to be cut under his Government? By the end of this | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
Parliament, there will be 18,000 people working for the UK Border | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
Agency which is the same number as were working for the UK Border | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
Agency in 2006 when he was sitting in the Treasury and determining the | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
budgets. He asks about what we have done in 18 months in office on | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
immigration. Let me tell him. The first-ever limit on work visas from | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
outside the European Union. We have stopped more than 470 colleges from | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
bringing in bogus foreign students. We have cut student visas by 70,000. | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
Anyone who comes here to get married has to speak English. We | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
are ending automatic settlement rights and stopping the nonsense of | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
people misusing the Human Rights Act. In 18 months we have done more | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
to control immigration than he did in 13 years. Mr Speaker, the truth | :41:18. | :41:25. | |
is it's a fiasco and he knows it. That is the reality. It is a... Mr | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
Speaker, it is a pattern with this Government. Broken promises. Gross | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
incompetence. Blame everybody else. He's an out of touch Prime Minister | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
leading a shambolic Government. ever, he completely lost his way! | :41:42. | :41:50. | |
LAUGHTER I think he should spend a little more time listening to the | :41:50. | :41:57. | |
author of Blue Labour. He said this: "Labour lied about the extent | :41:58. | :42:07. | |
:42:08. | :42:11. | ||
of immigration." Where's the apology? Thank you, Mr Speaker. On | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
Friday 3 Commando Brigade will be marching through the streets of | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
Plymouth on their homecoming parade. I know the Prime Minister will be | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
with us in spirit. Would he today like to send a message of support | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
to these brave and very professional Royal Marines of whom | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
we are all so very proud? I will certainly join my honourable friend | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
in doing that. I know that the whole of the South West and the | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
whole country is incredibly proud of the Marines and we are proud of | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
3 Commando Brigade who will be marching through Plymouth. I send | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
my very best wishes for the homecoming parade. We should put on | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
record what they have achieved in Task Force Helmand. They carried | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
out 37,000 patrols. They found over 400 IEDs. They have made a real | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
difference to the safety and security of that country and the | :43:01. | :43:08. | |
safety of our country, too. Does the Prime Minister think it is | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
right and proper and defensible that the Royal Bank of Scotland | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
which received massive bail-out during the crisis should be paying | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
over �500 million out in bonuses this year? No, I don't think it is | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
acceptable. It hasn't yet set its figures for bonus payments. The | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
British Government is a seriously large shareholder in RBS and we | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
will be making our views known. joining me in giving our | :43:34. | :43:41. | |
condolences to the relatives of the Red Arrows pilot killed at RAF | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
Scampton yesterday, will the Prime Minister acknowledge the overriding | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
need for safety and that our campaign to save RAF Scampton from | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
closure is not just based on sentiment for the historic home of | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
the Dambusters but on the overriding need for the safe | :43:59. | :44:05. | |
uncluttered skies above North Lincoln shirp which the Red -- | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
Lincolnshire which the Red Arrows need to practice safely? It comes | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
on top of a second accident that happened in the Red Arrows. This | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
has been a very tragic time for something that the whole country | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
loves and I know the home to them in Lincolnshire is extremely | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
important. We must get to the bottom of what happened. I | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
understand why he wants to stand up for the airbase in his constituency. | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
Thank you. The trade unions yesterday published data showing my | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
constituency has seen the largest growth in youth unemployment in | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
this country. Given we won't have the opportunity to question the | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
Prime Minister on unemployment numbers next week, why is he | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
letting young people down in my constituency? We face a difficult | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
situation with unemployment including amongst young people, | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
right across the country and we need to do everything we can to | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
help people back into work. That is why there is record investment | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
going into apprenticeships, record investment going into the work | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
programme. The real need is to grow the private sector. It is a time | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
that whoever was in Government would be having to make reductions | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
in the public sector. He shakes his head. Any Government - look across | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
Europe at the reductions. We need to get the private sector growing. | :45:19. | :45:28. | |
That is what this Government is Developing considerable potential | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
for jobs in the energy sector is crucial for economic recovery in my | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
constituency as is providing skills to take on the jobs. Will the Prime | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
Minister ensure the government does all it can to fund the completion | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
of the new high-school in Lowestoft that will play such an important | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
role in giving young people the skills in a deprived area? | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
Honourable Friend makes an important point about this local | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
school and the skills it will bring. This year, Suffolk has an extra �33 | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
million in capital funds and it is for the local authority to decide | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
how to spend money, but I would make the point that school capital | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
available throughout this Parliament amounts to �15.9 billion, | :46:08. | :46:16. | |
so money is therefore important This weekend the nation will pause | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
to remember paying tribute to hour war dead. At Cenotaph across the | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
nation we will pay homage to men and women who have paid the Supreme | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
sacrifice in conflict down the years. Would the Prime Minister | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
agree that whether it is in shops, schools, churches or on football | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
shirts, where there is a desire to display the tribute in a non- | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
partisan way it should not just be allowed, but positively promoted? | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
completely agree with the Honourable Gentleman and sense the | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
entire house does as well. I think it's a remarkable achievement of | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
the Royal British Legion and the country as a hole that over the | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
past years we have reintroduced the sense of the silence taking place | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
on the 11th hour of the 11th day. I think it is absolutely right and | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
appropriate in Northern Ireland where so many people have served so | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
bravely in our armed forces and from both sides of the border. | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
Whenever I visit the Royal Irish Regiment you are struck by how many | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
people from both sides of the borders have served in the armed | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
forces. Less family breakdown would reduce | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
the costs loaded onto Allah economy, so will the Prime Minister | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
encourage health authorities across the whole country to take part in | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
care for the pilot schemes where volunteer parents offer support to | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
new parents in the early years of their family life which is when | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
half of all break-ups occur. honourable friend has a great | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
record in pushing forward this vital idea. It is a tragic fact | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
that so many couples break-up after the arrival of the first child | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
because of the stresses and strains it brings. It is dreadful for the | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
couple's and dreadful for the children. We spend a huge amount in | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
the country of dealing with social breakdown and in my view we should | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
spend more to help keep families together and relationship advice | :48:10. | :48:20. | |
:48:20. | :48:21. | ||
and support, as my Honourable On Friday, the UN Security Council | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
will consider the democratically conveyed Palestinian request for | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
full membership of the United Nations. Might the international | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
community not do more to advance the prospect of a to state solution | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
by doing more to create a to state processed and in that context, | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
would he insure that the UK representative casts a positive | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
vote on Friday and doesn't go for abstention? My Right Honourable | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
Friend the Foreign Secretary will make a full statement to the House | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
about this issue and a few moments. Let me say this. The British | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
government is fully behind the two state solution but I profoundly | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
believe that the way you get a to state solution is not through | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
declarations at the UN, the way you get it is through the two potential | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
States, Israel and Palestine, sitting down and negotiating. All | :49:11. | :49:17. | |
of our efforts should be put towards making that happen. | :49:17. | :49:26. | |
(WHITE)THE SPEAKER: (BLUE)(CAPNEXT). The winter fuel payment provides | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
valuable help with paying their bills. Individuals are free to | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
donate their payment to charity if they wish, but it must be a | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
decision for them. I thanked the Prime Minister for the question | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
answer and I'd like to congratulate Peter Whyman for coming up with an | :49:43. | :49:49. | |
idea where people can donate their winter fuel allowance where they do | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
not need it. Would the government try and include an option on the | :49:53. | :49:55. | |
letter sent to all of the over sixties about the winter fuel | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
allowance to allow the donation to be donated automatically to the | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
appeal? I will look at the suggestion she makes, but it is | :50:04. | :50:11. | |
very important that we keep the promises about keeping up winter | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
fuel and cold weather payments. I would not want to see any pressure | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
unnecessarily put on people to do something that might not be in | :50:19. | :50:25. | |
their own best interests. The operational instruction from | :50:25. | :50:35. | |
:50:35. | :50:36. | ||
the UK Border Agency on 28th July says we might see checking under 18 | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
year-olds against the warnings in this. Did anyone in the Home Office | :50:38. | :50:44. | |
clear that document, and given the conflicting stories between the | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
Home Secretary officials and her own version, will he publish all | :50:48. | :50:55. | |
the ministerial instructions to the UK order agency? He is trying | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
desperately to make up the ground lost by his leader, but he rather | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
lost the house in the process. The point I would make to him is that | :51:04. | :51:12. | |
there is going to be an inquiry carried out by the Chief Inspector | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
of the ordinary, so the chief inspector who found out what was | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
going wrong in terms of undertaking the didn't have the permission of | :51:18. | :51:28. | |
:51:28. | :51:31. | ||
ministers and all of these issues On Christmas Day 1914, British and | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
German troops put down their weapons and played a football match | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
in no-man's-land. The following day the bloody hostilities resumed and | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
we today where the poppy in remembrance of our war dead. Will | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
the Prime Minister join me in condemning the outrageous decision | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
by Fifa or to refuse the home nations their request to wear a | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
poppy on their shirts this weekend as a simple mark of respect and | :51:55. | :52:01. | |
I think the Honourable Lady Nott speaks just the the whole house, | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
but a whole country, by being completely baffled and frankly | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
angry by the decision made by Fifa. If teams want to be able to put the | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
poppy on their shirt, as many teams do in our Football League, they | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
should be able to and national level whether it is the English | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
team or the Welsh team. I think this is an appalling decision and I | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
hope they will reconsider it. As poverty is rising, the Prime | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
Minister is removing the requirement for people to register | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
to vote in Britain, thereby removing millions of people's right | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
to vote. Is seen there for not taking their money with one hand | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
and taking their votes with another -- is the there for not taking | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
their money with one hand and taking votes with another and it is | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
a grotesque distortion of democracy to remove the voting power of the | :52:50. | :53:00. | |
:53:00. | :53:00. | ||
most vulnerable? The point I would make is that we are introducing | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
individuals and I can understand why he does not support the idea of | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
making constituencies the same size, because his constituency only has | :53:10. | :53:16. | |
62,000 people in, where his Right Honourable Friend the Member for | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
East Ham represents 91,000 people. I do think it is a basic act of | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
fairness to have seats the same size. It was a demand of the | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
Chartists in the 1840s and I think it's time we introduced it. | :53:32. | :53:39. | |
Is the Prime Minister aware that there is growing evidence increased | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
abuse, intimidation and harassment on Park home sites across the | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
country and tackling needs these problem needs political will and | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
not a large sum of money. Will the Prime Minister give urgency to | :53:51. | :53:58. | |
addressing these issues so that vulnerable parts homeowners need | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
the protection that -- get the protection they need as soon as | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
possible? I have constituency cases myself where people have been | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
treated very badly by Park home owners. There are some extremely | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
good Park home owners to obey the rules and demonstrate | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
responsibility and compassion but there are friendly some who don't. | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
We are committed to providing a better deal to residents by | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
improving their rights and increasing protection from bad site | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
owners and double arrange for her to have a meeting with the housing | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
minister so they can discuss this urgent action -- I will arrange for | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
her. In these difficult economic times it is more important that our | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
politics are in touch with the people we represent. Would the | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
Prime Minister therefore welcome the first successful people on a | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
parliamentary Speakers placement scheme you are inspiring | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
individuals who would never normally get the chance to work in | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
politics. Would he agree to meet with them and listen to their views | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
on the relevance of the issues today and Perhaps how all of us our | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
doing in our politics? I joined the Right Honourable Lady in the point | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
she makes. She has made a huge impact on the impact of social | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
mobility and trying to help people who have not had good chances in | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
life and I applaud her. If there is time in my busy diary I will do as | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
she says. I do think there is an important opportunity for everyone | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
in the house to look at organisations like the social | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
mobility foundation that provide opportunities for internships from | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
inner-city schools to have the experience of working in Palmer. I | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
have used the scheme as other members of the Cabinet have, and I | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
think it is an excellent scheme to give people a good chance to see | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
what we do in this place, not just on Wednesday at 12 o'clock, but | :55:37. | :55:46. | |
Does my right honourable friend think it is right for Honourable | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
Members to take instruction from the GMB about how to vote on | :55:50. | :56:00. | |
:56:00. | :56:00. | ||
amendments? I do think the Honourable Lady raises a serious | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
issue and I can sense a bitter resistance! That is perhaps not rip | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
-- surprising when 85 % of their money comes from the trade unions, | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
but the fact is when we discuss legislation in the house it should | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
be ringing our judgment an hour and ideas and not just picking up a | :56:17. | :56:26. | |
tired old free from a trade union - - Our Ideas. -- a tired old brief. | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
In my constituency there are over 3,000 people claiming jobseeker's | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
allowance for the latest figures show that there were only 300 job | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
vacancies available. Jobs are being lost in the public sector and the | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
private sector. How high does unemployment have to go before the | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
Prime Minister will accept that his economic policies simply aren't | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
working? Unemployment is too high today. I want to see it come down | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
from its already high levels. What we have to do in order to make that | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
happen is put resources into the apprentice scheme and put it into | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
the work programme, to make sure we do all the things that help | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
businesses employ people. That is what this government is doing. We | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
are cutting corporation tax and introducing enterprise zones and | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
doing everything we can to help businesses and we will do that in | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
her constituency and through the country. | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
Italian bond yields have jumped by more than a percentage point to an | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
unsustainable 8.1 %. Could the Prime Minister tell us what euro- | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
zone leaders must do to stop the contagion? I do think my Honourable | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
Friend makes important point. If you don't have credibility about | :57:37. | :57:46. | |
your plans to deal with your DEC's, and they will not lend you any | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
money. That is what we are seeing in countries like Greece and Italy | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
where the price of borrowing money is getting to a totally | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
unsustainable level. It is a lesson for us to have sustainable plans to | :57:57. | :58:05. | |
get on top of Our debts. In terms of Europe, as we look in Europe, | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
and with his -- decide on a decisive right down about the debt, | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
people look at other countries and Unita have in place the biggest | :58:13. | :58:19. | |
possible firewall. -- you need to have in place. Euro-zone leaders | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
urgently need to put flesh on the bones and figures on the size of | :58:23. | :58:31. | |
the firewall. Last year youth unemployment at Tameside stood at | :58:31. | :58:37. | |
an unacceptable 25 per smack - 20 %, one in five, and now stands at 34 % | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
which is frankly shocking. In light of this, does he still believe that | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
the decision to scrap the future jobs fund was the right one? Let me | :58:46. | :58:52. | |
make the point that under Labour youth unemployment went up by 40 %. | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
On the issue of the future jobs fund, the evidence we received on | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
coming into government was that the future jobs fund was three or four | :59:01. | :59:07. | |
times more expensive than other job creation schemes and in many parts | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
of the country including in the West Midlands the percentage of | :59:12. | :59:17. | |
jobs in the private sector was as low as two or 3%. It was right to | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
scrap the future jobs fund and put in its place apprenticeships, the | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
work programme and work experience which will make a difference to | :59:24. | :59:32. | |
young people. Mr Speaker, war is a failure of | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
politics. The people who go to war are not politicians, they are brave | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
service people who die in the service of the country. Could I | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
urge my Right Honourable friend to write to fever to point out that | :59:45. | :59:50. | |
the poppy is not a political symbol -- FIFA, it is a symbol that says | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
we respect the sacrifice that people have made on behalf of their | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
countries. I will certainly do as my Honourable friend says. It is | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
not just an issue of writing to FIFA, it is asking them and she | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
bodies, including the FA, to take a very strong line about this. As he | :00:05. | :00:11. | |
says, this is not of left or right, Labour or Conservative, we all wear | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
a poppy with pride. We all do it, even if we don't approve of the | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
wars people were fighting in. We do it to one of the fact that these | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
people sacrifice their lives for us. It is absolutely vital for FIFA to | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
understand it and a clear message going out of the house can make | :00:27. | :00:34. | |
them think again. Building on the last answer that | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
the Prime Minister gave, given the fact that Italy is now on an | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
incredible fiscal path, in the words of the Prime Minister, will | :00:41. | :00:49. | |
he assist the G20 finance ministers to meet and help create the | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
European financial stability package in such a way that helps | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
the Eurozone? The Honourable Gentleman makes an important point, | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
but the first responsibility for building is bail-out fund has got | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
to be with the euro-zone members. The problem with the G20 is, as we | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
discussed in the House, you cannot ask the g 20 and the IMF to do | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
things that the Eurozone members are not prepared to do. We do stand | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
ready to boost the IMF and we do want to help countries in distress. | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
We do not want to see our trading partners collapse. We understand | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
that even though we don't support membership of the euro, country's | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
falling out of the euro could be very painful for our economy. It is | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
their currency Doak and they have to sort out the problems. -- it is | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
their currency though. In reply to my Honourable Friend to | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
the member for Orpington referred to a firewall in these bail-out. | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
Would he accept that what we need is structural renegotiation of the | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
treaty's given the impact it is having on the United Kingdom and to | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
use a cricketing analogy, which she will be aware of, he would not be | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
sent in with a broken bat, he would be sent in with a new bat and the | :02:01. | :02:11. | |
:02:11. | :02:14. | ||
There is a long history in my party of cricketing metaphors and Europe | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
ending and happily, so I don't think I will necessarily follow | :02:18. | :02:26. | |
down the park. -- ending unhappily. But we will defend our country and | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
we got something back in the treaty, which was to get back out of the | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
bail-out fund. If there a future treaty changes and some European | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
countries are pushing for them, we will make sure we will do a good | :02:36. | :02:45. | |
deal for Britain and protect the Prime Minister's Questions comes to | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
an end. It was not that difficult that the frontbench exchanges were | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
dominated by this row over Theresa May and what she did and didn't | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
order about border control in the pilot programme. A general sense | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
that I'm getting from the tweets - we will hear from Jo in a minute - | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
Ed Miliband didn't quite score the goal that he hoped to do. This | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
business of the England team not being allowed to wear poppies | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
during the match against Spain this weekend came up several times. I am | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
sure some of the questions were planted so the Prime Minister could | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
make a robust statement about it. That last question there from Bill | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
Cash was on the eurozone situation, given the enormity of what has been | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
happening in Greece and in Italy, and how the eurozone is still the | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
biggest threat to whether Britain goes into recession or not, it was | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
interesting that it did barely merit a mention. You sometimes | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
wonder if Parliament is tuned in to the big issues of PMQs. Yes, it is | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
about what gets MPs going. You are right, the performance of Ed | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
Miliband was the subject of the vast majority of the e-mails. Lots | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
of people felt it was the wrong subject for him to go on. "A clear | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
win for David Cameron today. Labour can never win on immigration just | :04:04. | :04:12. | |
as the Tories can never win on the NHS." This one: "Ed Miliband is | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
failing to consolidate the gains he made over the summer. Terrible | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
performance." This from Don Smith, "Ed Miliband was asking questions | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
that were answered yesterday by the Home Secretary." Alan Webb, "Ed | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
Miliband sank without trace today. He should have left the issue of | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
border controls well alone after the mess his own party made of it. | :04:38. | :04:45. | |
He should choose his questions more carefully." There were some in | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
favour. This from Ian, "Ed Miliband has outperformed the Prime Minister | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
again this week. He did very well to focus on the detail of the | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
borders issue." Ian, "Ed had an open goal today and he scored. | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
David struggled." Nick Robinson, where are we now on this? I have | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
changed my mind almost every day. I began by thinking Theresa May was | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
safe on this. By the beginning of the week, I thought it looked a bit | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
dodgy for her. Given the statement from the Chief Executive of the | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
Border Agency that Brodie Clark did say to him I'm going much further | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
than the Minister told me, it would seem that could be her get out of | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
jail card? That's right. If these sorts of stories become a he says | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
she says in which you struggle to remember the names and the job | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
titles and quite what it was, it is easier for a Minister. But if | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
Brodie Clark goes before MPs next week, on Tuesday, and produces a | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
piece of evidence that says that, "I can prove that the Home | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
Secretary told me to do this" then she would be in real difficulty. | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
That would be a game changer? is no indication in his statement, | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
the head of the union that represents him was on Newsnight, he | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
didn't suggest there was such evidence. So my instinct is it's | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
awkward for the Home Secretary. It's not been comfortable for her. | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
It will fuel anxiety about immigration that was anyway coming | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
up through the largely Tory supporting newspapers and because | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
there's another of these petitions that will put another motion on the | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
order paip probably of the House of Commons about a new limit -- Order | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
Paper probably of the House of Commons about a new limit. In part, | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
Ed Miliband didn't go for the detail. It was striking when Chris | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
Lesley stood up and said, "Will you publish some papers?" The Prime | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
Minister hasn't got an answer as to why he won't publish papers, other | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
than say wait for an inquiry which we know won't report until January. | :06:49. | :06:59. | |
It seems to me that would have been much more fruitful for the Leader | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
of the Opposition. He was allowing the Prime Minister to go through | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
the detail. The detail doesn't convict the Government yet. An open | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
goal but he stuck the ball over the bar? I don't accept that. Today | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
with very lengthy answers he justified entirely the actions that | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
were taken and praised the virtues of the process. Most people | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
watching who think that the Government's first responsibility | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
is to maintain its borders will think that is out of touch. | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
didn't say the pilot was unacceptable. He said the Border | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
Agency going much further than the pilot was unacceptable? The pilot | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
that covered all these ports, airports, every single person in | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
the European Economic Area, means the Home Secretary has no idea how | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
many people came in unchecked over that period and didn't bother to | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
find out. That was acceptable? I don't think so. I think people are | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
very worried about this. I thought Ed Miliband spoke to those worries. | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
The Prime Minister wasn't regarding the pilot as unacceptable, he was | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
regarding what Brodie Clark is claimed to have done as | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
unacceptable. He may be right, he may be wrong, but I don't see the | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
inconsistency between yesterday and today? Well, I think the public | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
will see his words yesterday where he said what had happened was | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
unacceptable. If he is saying today that it was only the extensions to | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
the pilot that were unacceptable, or is he saying the fact that you | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
have, we have no idea how many people entered the country without | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
proper checks from a huge area like the European Economic Area over a | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
large timescale? If he is saying that is acceptable, he is more out | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
of touch than we thought. It may or may not be acceptable. What | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
wouldn't be acceptable to this Government since it was obviously | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
acceptable to the last Government because you did the same? Year on | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
year, we tightened up security checks... There were times when you | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
opened our borders, that is accepted? We are talking about the | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
checks at borders. We tightened up... No, no. We introduced the | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
technology... There were periods when you opened our borders in a | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
similar way to this pilot? What do you mean? There were times when you | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
said you don't need to do this, the normal checks you have to do. There | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
were times at Heathrow Airport when you said don't look at those who | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
are on a possible wanted list. So it's happened before under both | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
governments? What we are saying is... But do you accept that? | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
What I accept is that all governments - and there was a | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
consensus on this - all governments, Labour and Conservative, wanted to | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
maintain and increase and tighten border controls. That doesn't | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
seem... That seems to have happened. The borders are not that tight. | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
They seem to be for reasons of expediency that you didn't want a | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
lot of people queuing to get into the country. Last summer, some | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
people were having to wait three hours at Heathrow to get in? What | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
we were doing on the pilot was getting proper judgment and risk | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
assessment by individual Border Agency officials. That is why it is | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
so important what the Prime Minister said, it increased the | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
number of illegal immigrants that were detected. It was telling the | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
staff you have to exercise some discretion, but it was not on the | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
scale that appears to have happened. Labour are making heavy weather of | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
it. There was a pilot. We believe... It was agreed by Home Office | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
Ministers? The pilot. You didn't know about it? It was a legitimate | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
operation. I didn't know about it. What then clearly happened was that | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
Brodie Clark went way beyond the agreed terms of the pilot and we is | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
now have a clear statement by the head of the UK Border Agency, he | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
has endorsed what the Home Secretary said. Nick? Let me | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
confess, I have been out of the country for a couple of days while | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
this story was brewing up. I was in Brussels. The slight curiosity is | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
we have the Prime Minister saying more people arrested, more guns | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
were found. Is this a policy a failure or a success? That is a | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
very good question. Both parties are desperate to show and sound | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
like they are tough. Of course, there is an element in which all | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
border controls are a balance between the consumer element which | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
is do people wait for hours and get very cross about it? There are | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
businessmen waiting, families with kids. Versus security. There is a | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
balance. Let me ask, was the pilot a success? The pilot has not been | :11:31. | :11:38. | |
evaluated. You have been boasting... The purpose of the pilot was to get | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
focus on people coming through the country's borders that were thought | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
to be potentially risky. Not have simply a tick in the box system and | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
you can be a seven-year-old on a regulated school trip or a 25-year- | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
old with something in your past and you are all treated the same way. | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
The purpose was to get the Border Agency officials to exercise some | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
judgment and focus on the people who they thought were the likely | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
risk cases. You got 10% more... That appears to be the reason why | :12:08. | :12:17. | |
we have more illegal immigrants. it was a success? The 10% is not a | :12:17. | :12:18. | |
proper evaluation? The pilot was agreed by Ministers and we stand by | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
the need to have a pilot. What we don't stand by was Brodie Clark | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
doing something different. I don't understand how you can claim it | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
caught out 10% more people than the old system and yet not be prepared | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
to say it was a success? We know those figures. We don't know. | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
we do know is the reason for the pilot - it is being suggested the | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
reason of the pilot was to weaken border controls. The purpose was to | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
strengthen and make more effective our border controls. The Prime | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
Minister had a teed up question on FIFA's ban on the England team | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
wearing poppies. He wants to say something strongly about it? Yes. | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
He's offering himself around to television companies to say | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
something. He thinks this is an issue he feels strongly about and | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
he knows the country will feel strongly about it as well. Should | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
the FIFA, should the England team defy the FIFA ban and walk out to | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
the pitch with their poppies on their chests? Yes, they should. We | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
should tell FIFA to go and take a running jump. When the whole | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
country comes together this weekend for remembrance, it is a complete | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
disgrace that England's national team would not be allowed to wear | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
the poppy with pride as everyone else does. Should the England team | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
defy the FIFA ban? I want to see the England team wearing their | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
poppies. They should. So they should? What I would like to see is | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
FIFA reconsidering what will still happen. Two for defying the ban. | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
will be looking. Nick, thank you. It was also mentioned today the | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
issue of party funding. A couple of weeks ago I asked Lord Levy what | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
his advice to Andrew Rosenfeld would be. Good luck was the answer! | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
One that betrayed the idea that raising significant cash for | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
political parties veers between hard and impossible. Once again, | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
the issue of state-funding and donation caps are being discussed | :14:16. | :14:26. | |
:14:26. | :14:27. | ||
so Giles has been delving into what How political parties are funded | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
country is a murky issue. The Conservatives have been accused of | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
over-reliance on big-money donors like Lord Ashcroft. People do not | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
understand why people are giving large amounts of money to political | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
parties if they don't get something for it. Labour struggles on its | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
almost total reliance on the unions, who do expect some backing for | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
their buck. If you were to ask every trade unionist, do you want | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
to give the number to the Labour Party, significant numbers will say | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
no. So the minute you shine the light of transparency on the | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
process, the amount of money coming from trade unions will drop. | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
the Liberal Democrats to have always had significantly less than | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
the other two ended up with their biggest donor, Michael Brown, being | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
sent down as a crook. But it's Lib Dem leader and deputy Nick Clegg | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
who has asked for the standards of public life Commission to construct | :15:17. | :15:24. | |
a new format to go under approval, the 4th in seven years, the last, | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
the �50,000 cap on donation in the Phillips inquiry, which narrowly | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
failed. The proposals were fair to all sides, and �50,000 of that what | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
was something we could have lived with on the Labour side and the | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
others could have as well. I don't think either side particularly | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
wanted to succeed, and Labour less. The trade unions basically killed | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
the talks of behind the scenes. No matter what we said at the time, | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
that is what happened. Sorting party funding has always | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
traditionally been like fitting a tyre that is too small on a bike | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
wheel. It is hard. You think once you've tucked in and sorted the | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
problem with the unions and Labour, you have the donors and the Tory | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
problem. You try and sort that and that pops back out again. Sort them | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
both and you have the Lib Dems saying this disadvantages us. If | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
you sort out all three, you discover that what you have come up | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
with won't appeal to the public. It is actually very difficult and it | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
has never been done and it always leaves democracy campaigners more | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
deflated than pumped up. The trick is to devise a scheme for that in | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
return for parties accepting a cap on donation, they get state funding, | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
which exists a short money for opposite -- opposition parties. | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
This would either be block funding, cash per vote, or more likely, a | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
voucher system where we will tick a box for where we wish state money | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
to go, rumours are about �3. What we won political parties to do is | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
engage with the public and in -- earn their crust, if you like, and | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
then a voter ticking a box seems a passive relation between voters and | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
a political party. I think they should work harder for it, frankly. | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
All the party leaders will have to accept, if they don't do it, while | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
they are party leader will have to deal with the scandal affecting | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
their party and donations. If they are not careful their personal | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
reputation will be tarnished because, ultimately, the mix of | :17:26. | :17:35. | |
money and votes and parties is a toxic one. Joining the now is the | :17:35. | :17:44. | |
Liberal Democrat peer, Lord Russell. Joining me now is the Liberal | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
Democrat peer Lord Razzall. You would obviously support this | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
because you get more money with the three Band donation. We don't | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
support it, because even though we would get more money, we wanted | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
take this leaves out of British politics. All three parties could | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
trade insults and I don't think that is appropriate in this context. | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
The important thing about the proposals is they must be taken as | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
a package. You cannot just pick one bit without having the other. If | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
you're going to limit donations to the �50,000 talked about you have | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
to introduce some element of public funding to replace the money would | :18:21. | :18:29. | |
otherwise -- the party would otherwise lose. You mention Michael | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
Brown, and with what happened in him, does it show that the system | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
needs reforming? I think the parties could, with different | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
examples, but yes, I think it does. To have that amount of money given | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
by people, Michael Brown, and no one knows where he is, because he's | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
on the run, and the Sunday Telegraph says he's in the | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
Dominican Republic, he has suddenly popped up before the 2005 election | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
and said he would give us �3 million before the election for | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
though it was not apparent why he wanted it, but he did. We then | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
discovered a lot later that he was convicted for all sorts of | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
fraudulent offences. Just briefly, the state of finances or the | :19:09. | :19:16. | |
Liberal Democrats? A not bad, actually. There was also the part | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
of giving 10 % as a tide from your members. That is, along mode -- | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
local council groups to give an allowance to the party. -- among | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
the local council bridge. It does sound sensible, so were due back? | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
think all the parties want to see reform in party funding. It is a | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
very tricky issue. The most important thing was alluded to in | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
the package, and the public really have to have a say in this. It is | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
OK for the political parties to get together and try and square the | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
circle but if you are going to move to something like state funding in | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
these difficult times you have to say to the public, is this | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
something you really want to see. So it is worth taking the time and | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
effort and talk to the public. would come back to whether they | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
would support the funding in that way, but what about your | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
relationships with the unions, bearing in mind Labour is so | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
reliant on the unions of funding, it would completely eradicated in | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
terms of the sorts of the size of money you get. We do not know what | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
the proposals are. Would you back the �50,000 cap? That would be | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
50,000 from each union. We would look at a cap, but it's a world | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
away from looking at an organisation like a trade union. | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
When we talk about trade union money we are talking about | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
individuals, low-paid, part-time workers, in unison, who choose to | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
give �3 a year through their political fund to the Labour Party | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
to support campaigns. That is what we are talking about. There is a | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
difference between a trade union donation what he's talking about, | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
where the union it is affectingly acting as a collecting agency for | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
membership and nobody is saying that should be attacked. But there | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
is a suggestion and has come from Conservatives claiming that in | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
terms of influence, the people will check with the unions before they | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
make amendments to bills. I think that is a nonsense. As | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
parliamentary numbers we get lobbied all the time, not just by | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
trade unions and why were we not listen to public sector workers and | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
manufacturing in the same way we get lobbied by charities and all | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
kinds of organisations. Don't forget, in February the | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
Conservatives were auctioning off jobs in the City, internships for | :21:26. | :21:34. | |
family members. At a Conservative Party fundraiser, this was. People | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
shouldn't really be throwing rocks at Labour on this. David Willetts, | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
in terms of a cap on donation, that would affect the Conservative Party | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
income. We accept the principle of a cap on donations. And �50,000? | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
we have to see what the proposals are, but if there were some | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
suggestions earlier of a cap at �10,000, then the trade-off you | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
face, if you go that low, you increase the need for public | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
spending instead to replace the money you have lost from donations. | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
I think we have to be very careful of anything involving higher public | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
spending and the taxpayers putting in more money. That is not what | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
people want to see happening when times are tough. So you would not | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
be in favour of going to the public to ask for more money? We have to | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
see the proposals, but we are sceptical of anything involving | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
more public spending when we are trying to get a grip on public | :22:27. | :22:36. | |
spending. It is a tiny amount, and as shown in your film, one way is | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
to get people to tick a box, but one of the other ideas around for a | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
long time is that it should match- up to funding so any political | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
party raising so much by a small donation should gets the same back | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
from the Treasury. We don't want to go to the West German system where | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
they are simply funded by the taxpayer irrespective of their | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
contributions made by individual voters. Something else that does | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
matter is that trade unions are individuals, they aggregated to buy | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
policies like the work agreement and there has to be tackled as a | :23:10. | :23:19. | |
priority in a funding proposal. I'm going to read this introduction | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
because Andrew's too busy tweeting. And rest assured, when you read | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
tweets from him they really are from him. But Twitter is awash with | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
imposters who are pretending to be celebrities from the world of | :23:28. | :23:38. | |
:23:38. | :23:48. | ||
The Westminster village is all twittering about fake tweeters. | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
Steve Hilton spends all day thinking big thoughts and apart | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
from when he is apparently tweeting things like this when the Daily | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
Telegraph publish unflattering pictures of him drinking a cup of | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
tea. Total Mystique failed to! Launching an inquiry into Daily | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
Telegraph picks. Was rehearsing Dave X is in Number Ten with coffee | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
mug to talk to media. Electric! hoaxers Aviv and struck at | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
Buckingham Palace. How do you explain this tweed from the Queen? | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
One can confirm that the Olympic torch will visit Clarence house | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
where it will be used to light a cigarette for the Duchess of | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
Cornwall. Even fellow hacks have not escaped. Check out this tweet | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
posted from g 20 by a prankster posing as Daily Mail deputy | :24:39. | :24:46. | |
political editor Tim Shipman. me a taxi to the airport, airport! | :24:47. | :24:56. | |
:24:57. | :24:58. | ||
We apologise immediately. And we're joined now, as we normally are at | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
this time on a Wednesday, by Conservative MP Peter Bone, who's | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
wife - the famous Mrs Bone - has her very own fake Twitter account. | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
Why do you think somebody could be to blame? Is it because you always | :25:12. | :25:20. | |
mention her? It is quite amusing. It said I never thought I would say | :25:20. | :25:27. | |
this, her rave from the Greeks. A referendum is good enough for them, | :25:27. | :25:34. | |
Mr Cameron... Baking scones to calm my rage. Does Mrs Bone have a | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
twitter account? Know. If she did, would she tweaked that? More | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
moderate than she would tweet. Do people think it is your wife? I was | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
alerted to it by colleagues in the House of Commons saying how funny | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
it was. What, I said, and at the moment it is very good stuff. | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
clean fun at the moment, not offensive, not bringing Mrs Bone | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
into disrepute? You would be in trouble if that happened. There is | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
a picture of her in her marigolds, so you wouldn't want to tangle with | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
her. Is it a real picture? The S, taken from the BBC, actually. -- | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
yes. But of course the next post might say something racist or | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
unacceptable and people have got used to thinking it is Mrs Bone. | :26:22. | :26:30. | |
Then suddenly jumps at them. If it turned nasty, is there anything you | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
could do about it? Not really. I think you can in the States. People | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
can be sent to jail for five years, but here it is a real problem and | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
the way to overcome it is to be up front and say it is not Mrs boning | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
get that out in the public. I'm not really a great one for regulating | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
people. But as long as people know it is not her. How do people know? | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
By coming on shows like this, but there is a danger. For me it is not | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
so serious, but it could be for other people. Do you have a Twitter | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
account? Goodness gracious, no. you have the quill pen and pigeon | :27:04. | :27:12. | |
post? I am about at that stage. Your technology has improved. Do | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
you have a Twitter account? I have an official one. William Hague said | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
they were all written by the civil servants. A jolly good day for the | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
government today, etc. Do you have a Twitter account? I'd do, and | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
there has been a big change in the last year. A bunch of journalists | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
and politicians were talking to themselves, but in the last six | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
months lots more people from Barnsley are following May and they | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
are in little net works themselves and I think Twitter has changed | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
quite a lot. The chief executive of Twitter was in town earlier this | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
week and I discussed it with him. The point he made was that where it | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
played an important role, they can disguise their identity and he | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
thought that if people had been able to see who they were, history | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
might have been different. fakes Steve Hilton has just waited | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
to thank us for the free publicity. No doubt Mrs Bone will be doing the | :28:09. | :28:16. | |
same. Pick the winner. What was the year? 1978. Here we go. Let me have | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
a look. It is Jenny faster, you have one, Jenny Foster from Harvard. | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
That is it for today. Special thanks to our guests of the day. | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
Italian bonds have just hit 7.45 % yield which is probably be on the | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
point of low return for Italian finances. Berlusconi's shares have | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
slumped 10 % as well. We will be back at 11:30am tomorrow, a special | :28:43. | :28:47. |