09/11/2011 Daily Politics


09/11/2011

The pressure is still on the home secretary after the head of the UK Border Agency has quit. Silvio Berlusconi will step down, so what next for Italy and the eurozone?


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Morning, folks, this is the Daily Politics. Is Theresa May losing

:00:23.:00:26.

control of Passport Control? The pressure is still firmly on the

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Home Secretary today. Last night the head of the UK Border Force

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quit claiming Mrs May had misled Parliament. He's also mounting a

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claim for constructive dismissal. The Home Secretary is sticking to

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her guns. The Government is facing a tough day in Parliament today

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starting with Prime Minister's Questions. We will have all the

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action live at midday. The party's over. Silvio Berlusconi

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says he will step down. But only after he's pushed through economic

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reforms. What next for Italy and for the eurozone?

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Should you, me, every other taxpayer help political parties

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with their fund-raising? We speak to a Liberal Democrat peer who

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thinks state-funding is a jolly good idea.

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As Presidents Obama and Sarkozy make a public boo-boo, we ask what

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microphone gaffes really teach us about the true state of politics.

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A boo-boo? Yes. Was Yogi Bear there as well?! LAUGHTER It will be an

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action-packed 90 minutes of quality daytime TV here on BBC Two. It is

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worth the licence fee on its own. One licence fee it's worth! With us

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today to share in this feast of news are two of Westminster's

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average-sized beasts. The Universities Minister, David

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Willetts. They used to call him "two brains". Some say he's lost

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one! One of the new members of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet, Michael

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Dugher. A crazy name, a crazy guy. I don't know what they call him!

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Seeing as we have the Universities Minister here, let's kick-off with

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that. Why don't we? Thousands of students are marching through

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London today to demonstrate against higher university tuition fees.

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They are planning to march to the City of London where a protest has

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also been taking place outside St Paul's Cathedral. Last year,

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student prosests resulted in -- protests resulted in violent

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clashes right here in Westminster. They are authorised to use plastic

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bullets if necessary. Mark Bergman is one of the students protesting.

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He is a member of the NUS National Executive Committee. How confident

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are you that there won't be violence? The threats of the police

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of using rubber bullets of possibly using water cannons should mean

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there should be public outrage amongst parents, the trade union

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movement and amongst everyone who defends civil liberties in this

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country. The threat of violence by the police is totally unacceptable.

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What about violence on the side of the students protesting? Any

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clashes... The students have shown over the last couple of months,

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over the last 12 months, that they ultimately are defending our

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democratic right, they are defending the welfare state and are

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fighting for each and everyone under attack. What about in terms

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of what you are precisely protesting against? Now we have

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heard that one in five universities want to charge less in terms of

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fees and bursaries. You must be pleased about that? Well, 75% of

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all the universities now have agreed to set their fee levels at

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�9,000. What we will see is a privatised university system which

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on the one hand will provide courses such as philosophies and

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humanities for the rich and we are seeing how London Metropolitan

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University, an institution with more black students than the entire

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Russell Group put together being stripped of its assets. What is

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your response to this idea that now universities are reconsidering the

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levels of fees and bursaries that they are going to charge? They are

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probably going to charge less than that �9,000 fee that you have just

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said? The students movement has always made it clear that we

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principally stand on the basis of free education. The free education

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is a principle that whether you are five, whether you are 15, or

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whether you are 50, you should have the right to access higher

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education and the fact that some universities are now turning around

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and saying we will decrease our fees level just means they are

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coming under increasing pressure to oblige to the market. Thank you.

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You happy that the police could open fire on students today?

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want to see peaceful demonstrations. People have a right to demonstrate

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peacefully. The police have operational decisions to take.

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After the events a few months back they will be concerned if there is

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violence from protesters. I hope we can avoid that. Are rubber bullets

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the right way to go about it? That has to be more than an operational

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decision? That must be something the Government must have a say in?

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I have to say what we want to see is peaceful protests...

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understand that. Stkpwhri I'm very happy - the crucial thing is to --

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I'm very happy - the crucial thing is... Education has to be paid for

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by someone. It is going to be paid for by graduates when they are

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earning more than �20,000 a year. I think we have a progressive

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proposal. I would be very happy to carry on arguing that case in any

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democratic forum. I understand that. This is a democratic and open forum.

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You told this programme many moons ago that only a handful of

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universities would charge the �9,000 top fee and that turns out

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not to be the case - 50 of them are charging it? You told us that,

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didn't you? We said that we were expecting universities to reach a

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decision on what their fees should be, if they wanted to go above

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�6,000 they would have to get agreement. We ended up with the

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majority of students will not be facing fees of �9,000. The average

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fee is �8,100. What is the difference from that �9,000 if you

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are a student? For them, the crucial question is what their

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repayments will be. They will be paying 9% of their earnings when

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they are earning more than �20,000. On a Government website on the 9th

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November 2010 it said the following: In exceptional cases

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universities will be able to charge higher contributions, up to �9,000

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limit. 50 universities are not exceptional cases. Wouldn't it be -

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it may be right, it may be wrong. For the sake of plain-speaking and

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the democratic debate, surely you should say, "We got that bit

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wrong"? What we got right was expecting of universities that if

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they want to go above six, they had to agree an access agreement. The

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vast majority will not be facing fees of �9,000. Ed Miliband was

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quite tempted to go out and talk to the protesters last time. Is he

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going to go and dodge a bullet today? All of us want to see a

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peaceful protest from the students today. We understand their real

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concerns. One... Are you on their side? I'm against the fact that

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tuition fees are �9,000. The Government could do more. You could

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reduce the fees to �6,000, by a third, if you didn't give the

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bankers the corporation tax cut this year, also if you charged a

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little bit more interest for those earning over �65,000. There is

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something you could do. The big worry is the fact that applications

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from British students fell by 12% in this autumn and I think it's

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obvious now that contrary to what the Government has said before it

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is deterring people from going to university. These students are

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marching for no fees. Are you on their side for no fees? No, we have

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said there shouldn't be a �9,000... You said there should be �6,000?

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The Government could step in and get that number down. Is that still

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part of Labour policy? Of course. It is? It looked like an aspiration

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last time? We have said that at the party conference. You think �6,000

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would stop the marches? It would go a long way to help. The Government

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said before that there wouldn't be a detrimental impact in terms...

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Regardless of whether the fees are �6,000 or �9,000, it is the

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repayment rate. Your proposal doesn't affect the monthly

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repayments from graduates which will be lower under our proposals.

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Jo? Our two guests probably know you shouldn't say anything you

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might regret when you are in the vague proximity of a microphone.

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Pity no-one told President Sarkozy and Obama who let slip some

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unfortunate comments about the Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin

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Netanyahu. Theirs... The French press got together to agree not to

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make public. I went on two websites. Thank you, the French media. They

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were asked not to put their microphones on because President

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Sarkozy and Obama were going to have a private conversation. Here

:10:10.:10:20.
:10:20.:10:38.

is a reminder of some of the best Blair, what you doing? You leaving?

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:10:48.:10:50.

Don't speak before I call your name. Pretend... Pretend it was like the

:10:50.:11:00.
:11:00.:11:28.

Everything, she's the sort of It is very funny of course...

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Sorry! LAUGHTER You are on air! does the President sound like

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Schwarzenegger? It is funny. That gaffe is quite serious, isn't it?

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In terms of diplomatic relations, that is a total breach of trust in

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dealing with the Israeli Prime Minister? It can be very serious.

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Serious for the poor so-and-so who works for them that forgot to

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switch off the microphone. worked for Gordon Brown, of course,

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but not at the time of the Gillian Duffy gaffe? I was in Barnsley

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watching it on the telly at the time. Your heart sinking? You could

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argue... Glad that I wasn't there. What did it do to Gordon Brown? It

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had serious consequences for him? It did. I don't think it was the

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fact that it was recorded, it is about what you say and I think that

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was the problem in that instance. It is why Gordon immediately

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apologised and it wasn't our finest hour. Yes. David Willetts, that is

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the point. You can apologise, and it is embarrassing. Doesn't it

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reveal the true nature of politicians in those private

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moments? I don't think so. You get a different angle on politicians.

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Is it the true one? In my experience, when politicians are

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talking privately with the leader from another country, they don't

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spend all their time bad mouthing foreign leaders. I don't think it

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was a typical exchange. Is it then the only time we get to find out

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what politicians are thinking? see a different side of them, don't

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you? Often when you are just finishing an interview, that is the

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point when people start relaxing, the microphones are still on and

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they can be caught out. Everybody has to be allowed some opportunity

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for some kind of private communication, some kind of

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relaxation. We don't want politicians who are so straight-

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laced they are permanently on guard. Is there a chance people might

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think they are only human after all? I think they probably do. Most

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people might make a comment about a colleague, you might say something

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about Andrew that you wouldn't necessarily want broadcasting...

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Never! I don't think that has ever happened! Have you ever been caught

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out? Not yet. There's time. We are working on it. David? I was trying

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to think - I am sure there is some terrible gaffe... You must have

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said privately how dare all these universities go for �9,000 a year?

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Sitting in my office occasionally, who knows, as one delivers these

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exceptional higher education reforms. A thought of frus trace

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might have passed -- frustration might have passed through my mind.

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That is the closest we will get to the truth! Italian ten-year bonds

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have reached 7%. The highest since the euro area was founded in 1999.

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It is a significant benchmark and it puts Italy in real difficulties.

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Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi announced he would resign yesterday

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but only after Parliament passes urgent pwhudge et reforms. He's

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also ind -- budget reforms. He's also indicated he won't stand in

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any future elections. Meanwhile, an EU team is due in Rome today to

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begin monitoring how Italy plans to cut its rising budget debt. I'm

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joined by Bill Emmott, former editor of the The Economist.

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Let's do the politics then go on to the significance of the Italian

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bonds. Mr Berlusconi said he would go but only after the reforms are

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put through. Should we be suspicious he really will go?

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think Silvio Berlusconi is the kind of politician who thinks there's

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always another chance. He has bought a little bit more time, he

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thinks. He can talk to the people who he described yesterday as

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traitors and tried to buy them back again and hope that the bond

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markets reward him for saying that he is going to go, but I think we

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see today, in the markets, they are not rewarding him. They want him to

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go now. It is the message of James Cardle from the Clinton

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administration, who said, when he died he really wanted to be

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reincarnated not as the Pope, but the bond market, because it was all

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powerful. Finally Silvio Berlusconi has met his match, the bond market.

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It's only all powerful because the politicians borrow so much. If they

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didn't borrow, they wouldn't matter to them. We are proceeding on the

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basis that if Mr Berlusconi goes, Italy gets a fresh start. I would

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suggest to you that that is not the case. And the bond markets have

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already got that. They do know that, and the point is, it's like the old

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Irish story, you wouldn't start from here. Ah yes we would!

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only thing that makes me feel slightly sorry for Silvio

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Berlusconi is he is not responsible for the debt as it was built up in

:16:55.:16:58.

the seventies and eighties by politicians what are running

:16:58.:17:03.

British-style budget deficits of 10 %, annually, year after year, but

:17:03.:17:06.

the point about Silvio Berlusconi is that he has been in power for

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nine years altogether out of the last 70, eight of the last 11 and

:17:12.:17:18.

he has done nothing to reduce the debt -- the last 17. He has not

:17:18.:17:22.

made any reforms. This businessman who was going to show you how to

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run a country has done nothing except run the country in his own

:17:25.:17:30.

interests. That is why he has to go. There is a great deal of faith in

:17:30.:17:35.

Greece and Italy being put on a technocratic government, talk of

:17:35.:17:42.

the former governor of the Bank of Greece coming back into Greece, and

:17:42.:17:47.

talks of X EU commissioner Monte coming back to the Prime Minister

:17:47.:17:51.

of Italy. I would suggest putting technocrats in it might seem fine

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and they will know what they are doing, but they will have no

:17:54.:17:59.

democratic legitimacy to do some very, very painful things. For I

:17:59.:18:04.

think that is absolutely right. It's a very short-term solution.

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For Commissioner Monte, or whoever else, it is a hospital pass. You

:18:09.:18:13.

are basically being asked to do this because the politicians don't

:18:13.:18:19.

won the unpopularity. That means it is short-term. It can only last six

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or nine months at most, as it did in Italy in 1993 when the Governor

:18:28.:18:32.

of the Bank of Italy was brought in as a technical governor and did a

:18:32.:18:34.

lot of reforms in one year, but then the whole thing collapsed.

:18:34.:18:41.

That is going to happen again, I would say. The significant point of

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the 7% benchmark, that means that the debtor is expensive and they

:18:46.:18:49.

have the biggest number of bombs after America and Japan in the

:18:49.:18:55.

world. When Portugal and Greece hit this mark, they had to go for a

:18:55.:19:00.

bail-out. I would suggest there are two problems with this now. 1,

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Italy is much bigger and will need a bigger bail-out, and secondly,

:19:04.:19:10.

whatever Mrs Merkel and Mr Sarkozy say, there is no bail-out fund.

:19:10.:19:14.

There is no bail-out fund of this size, nor that the German, Dutch

:19:14.:19:19.

and French voters will permit to take on liability for the Italian

:19:19.:19:25.

debt. The real solutions after the Italian solutions. And the IMF

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buying some time. You can buy time by rolling over the dead. Italy's

:19:29.:19:34.

in a better position than Greece or Portugal is that the debt is in a

:19:34.:19:43.

long immaturity. 300 billion of it becomes up for maturity next year.

:19:43.:19:51.

It's only 300 billion! Less have a whip-round. Is it now British

:19:51.:19:57.

government policy that given that there is no bail-out fund and the

:19:57.:20:01.

financial leveraging, we've not seen the light of day of that. Is

:20:01.:20:05.

it government policy that the ECB, the European Central Bank, contrary

:20:05.:20:14.

to what the Germans want, should become the lender of last resort?

:20:14.:20:18.

We want to see more serious progress, which could have -- into

:20:18.:20:21.

the role for the ECB, but greater moves towards fiscal discipline in

:20:21.:20:26.

the euro-zone. Is it Leiba's policy that the ECB should become the

:20:26.:20:31.

lender of last resort -- Labour's policy. That would make it harder

:20:31.:20:37.

to rescue countries like Italy. we want to see institutions like

:20:37.:20:41.

the EC be stepping up to the plate, and Labour as well. This is

:20:41.:20:46.

something that the Eurozone has to face up to. I think what you need

:20:47.:20:49.

is the ECB honouring their responsibility. Should it be the

:20:49.:20:57.

lender of last resort? I'm not asking about that. Is it your

:20:57.:21:02.

polish sheet then it should be the lender of last resort? -- policy.

:21:02.:21:06.

It should be the role of the member states in the EU. This is something

:21:06.:21:10.

that the Germans and friends have to face up to. I am grateful to do

:21:10.:21:14.

that -- or that but it has nothing to do with what I asked you. Do you

:21:15.:21:18.

think the Germans will every agree to this? And it provoked the

:21:18.:21:22.

Germans into changing their mind about their attitude to the ECB?

:21:22.:21:26.

doubt it. I would not bet in favour of it. Germans will not vote for

:21:27.:21:30.

the government that does this, that is the trouble. You never know,

:21:30.:21:37.

Apocalypse Now, and you produce a new political environment, but now

:21:37.:21:40.

they would not vote for it. Bill, thank you for that. We will have to

:21:41.:21:44.

sign you up because they will be a lot of this going on. I think you

:21:44.:21:54.
:21:54.:21:57.

are right. Mr Berlusconi says he's going to retire and when that

:21:57.:22:03.

happens you normally get a fountain pen or a carriage clock or a litre

:22:03.:22:07.

of fine whisky in a critical -- crystal decanter. Edinburgh Crystal,

:22:07.:22:12.

in fact. When you have been the President of Italy, actually the

:22:12.:22:15.

Prime Minister, who writes the scripts? When you have been the

:22:15.:22:21.

prime minister, the President is different from Mr Berlusconi.

:22:21.:22:26.

Napolitano is the President, Berlusconi is the prime minister.

:22:26.:22:32.

The confusing thing is that he is call the President of the council.

:22:32.:22:36.

Maybe they were being clever. would probably either one be

:22:36.:22:42.

showered with fountain pens, carriage clocks and bung a bunker

:22:42.:22:49.

parties. So what would you want as a leaving present? How about a

:22:49.:22:53.

Daily Politics mug? Yes, these little babies would not look out of

:22:53.:23:00.

place at a poolside at one of these parties. So, Silvio, I am sending

:23:00.:23:04.

Joe to Rome to hand deliver one of these. You lucky, lucky man. You be

:23:05.:23:09.

careful with it. I once danger money for that. We will remind you

:23:09.:23:12.

how to enter in a minute, but let's see if you can remember when this

:23:12.:23:22.
:23:22.:23:31.

How do you feel about the loss of the Times this morning? I will miss

:23:31.:23:41.
:23:41.:23:59.

One woman came in and asked for 20 a loads? Were you able to supply

:23:59.:24:09.
:24:09.:24:43.

To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your

:24:44.:24:46.

answer to our special quiz e-mail address - that's [email protected]

:24:46.:24:49.

And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on

:24:50.:24:55.

our website. That's bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics. Now, it's

:24:55.:24:59.

coming up to midday. Let's have a look at Big Ben. That means PMQs is

:24:59.:25:06.

on the way. And Nick Robinson is here. Welcome to our programme,

:25:06.:25:10.

Nick. Now, the row engulfing the Home Secretary is likely to be the

:25:10.:25:13.

main thrust of the exchanges. And it doesn't look like the pressure

:25:13.:25:16.

on the Home Secretary will end there. The Commons will debate a

:25:16.:25:19.

Labour motion later today calling on the Government to publish all

:25:19.:25:22.

the details that ministers gave to the UK Border Agency. Jo, just

:25:22.:25:26.

bring us up to speed on who is saying what. Who's been in charge

:25:26.:25:29.

at passport control? That's the question everybody at Westminster

:25:29.:25:34.

is asking today. The Home Secretary said yesterday that she did

:25:34.:25:37.

authorise a 'pilot' scheme to relax border checks for some passengers

:25:37.:25:40.

arriving in the UK over the summer, but that she had not authorised

:25:40.:25:46.

wider relaxation of controls, which only a minister could do. But she

:25:46.:25:48.

was contradicted by the Border Force chief, Brodie Clark, who

:25:48.:25:52.

dramatically resigned last night. He issued a statement disputing Mrs

:25:52.:25:59.

May's version of events. He said, "The Home Secretary suggests that I

:25:59.:26:01.

added additional measures, improperly, to the trial of our

:26:01.:26:11.
:26:11.:26:11.

risk-based controls: I did not." "The Home Secretary also implies

:26:11.:26:14.

that I relaxed the controls in favour of queue management. I did

:26:14.:26:17.

not". But Brodie Clark's boss, Rob Whiteman says Clark "admitted" to

:26:17.:26:19.

him that he "authorised staff to go further than ministerial

:26:19.:26:22.

instruction". But in his statement Clark also says that the measures

:26:22.:26:25.

have been in place since 2008, which might just get him and the

:26:25.:26:33.

Home Secretary both off the hook. David Willetts, in October of this

:26:33.:26:39.

year, less than a month ago, 11th October, the Prime Minister said

:26:39.:26:43.

"we will reclaim our borders. We will get a grip on immigration in

:26:43.:26:47.

this country. Real limits, proper enforcement, real control over how

:26:47.:26:54.

many people come here and who.". That was that you had already open

:26:54.:26:59.

the borders to EU citizens. decision that ministers took was

:26:59.:27:02.

the piloting a scheme to make a risk assessment of people coming

:27:02.:27:05.

into the country and it was absolutely not opening of borders.

:27:05.:27:10.

That was not any decision that the Home Secretary table. It took was a

:27:10.:27:14.

pilot Why did you include every airport in the country? It was

:27:14.:27:17.

being trial on certain groups of people and the aim was that the

:27:17.:27:22.

people working at the borders agency should be able to exercise

:27:22.:27:26.

some judgment in a very small number of the tests applied.

:27:26.:27:30.

understand that, but if you say to a certain group of people it apply

:27:30.:27:35.

to everyone in what we call the European economic Area, which is

:27:35.:27:39.

all of the 27 countries in the EU, plus Switzerland, Norway and other

:27:39.:27:44.

ones that I forget. It is a pretty the group of people. These people

:27:44.:27:48.

could come in without proper checks, and yet, you're Prime Minister says,

:27:48.:27:53.

even after all that has happened, we will reclaim Al borders. Real

:27:53.:27:59.

control over how many people come here and who. That is absolutely

:27:59.:28:03.

not what was being piloted. What was piloted was the use by border

:28:03.:28:09.

agency officials of some risk assessment by them so that if, for

:28:09.:28:14.

example, a school party was coming through they had some discretion

:28:14.:28:19.

into which tests they applied and most of them were applied in those

:28:19.:28:23.

cases. You were not applying the biometric tests, correct? They

:28:23.:28:30.

could take a specific discretionary choice, the biometric data was one

:28:31.:28:34.

thing and that it is only a second photograph. But that is not opening

:28:34.:28:37.

up the borders, and that is precisely why the Home Secretary

:28:37.:28:44.

was so shocked. She is the one who says she cannot tell us get in

:28:44.:28:47.

illegally this summer. If that is not opening of borders, what is?

:28:47.:28:56.

Not knock. Who's there? Coming. -- come in. We know that the pilot

:28:56.:28:59.

actually increased by 10 % the number of illegal immigrants

:28:59.:29:03.

detected. What a cause she cannot know, and I hope the investigation

:29:03.:29:06.

will discover this, is what happened as a result of this

:29:06.:29:13.

completely unlicensed decision by the guy running the borders.

:29:13.:29:18.

Michael de deux, I'm not sure why you are making such a song and

:29:18.:29:22.

dance. In 2008, under a Labour government, you did not suspend

:29:22.:29:25.

what the Tories suspended, you suspended the warning index checks

:29:25.:29:30.

on the people coming in. You did that, with people who were risk,

:29:30.:29:34.

you suspended cheques. The reason why we are making a song and dance

:29:34.:29:38.

about it is because we thought Theresa May was incredibly

:29:38.:29:40.

complacent and out of touch when she could not tell us how many

:29:40.:29:45.

people came in unchecked because of a decision she took. But you

:29:45.:29:51.

suspended checked -- checks on 100 occasions. We had 1,000 more

:29:51.:29:56.

immigration officers and every single year we tightened up.

:29:56.:29:59.

suspended it over 100 times. introduce the biometrics on every

:29:59.:30:05.

visa, more immigration officers. 2004, local managers at Heathrow

:30:05.:30:09.

decided there would be all open controls and no checks whatsoever

:30:09.:30:14.

made. That was under you. Every year we endeavoured to tighten up

:30:14.:30:18.

the Czechs. The government took a decision to relax the cheques this

:30:19.:30:23.

summer and then took a decision not to check it. You never relaxed any

:30:23.:30:27.

of the checking? I was told by a former immigration minister he

:30:27.:30:37.
:30:37.:30:40.

would meet the scene like this in this case. There will be a lot of

:30:40.:30:44.

ammunition to throw around. truth is, in terms of impression,

:30:44.:30:48.

the government has paid a price. Look at the cartoonists today, they

:30:48.:30:52.

show Osama Bin Laden wandering through passport control and they

:30:52.:30:55.

have paid a price. The question is, is there a fatal fact. So far

:30:56.:30:59.

bought a razor maker there isn't. Here is Prime Minister's Questions

:30:59.:31:08.

He had already proved himself to be a dedicated and courageous soldier.

:31:08.:31:11.

He has made the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the British

:31:11.:31:15.

people and we should send our deepest condolences to his family

:31:15.:31:22.

and friends. This week, we will have lost their lives in defence of

:31:22.:31:26.

our country so we can enjoy peace and freedom. We are humbled by the

:31:26.:31:28.

sacrifice they have made. This morning, I had meetings with

:31:29.:31:32.

ministerial colleagues and others and I shall have further such

:31:32.:31:41.

meetings later today. May I add my tribute to the Prime Minister's

:31:41.:31:45.

about the death of Private Matthew Haseldin of 2nd Battalion The

:31:45.:31:52.

Mercian Regiment. Does he think telling 25 million workers they

:31:52.:31:57.

have no job security will boost or reduce consumer confidence? Clearly,

:31:57.:32:01.

what we have to do is make it easier for firms to hire people.

:32:01.:32:07.

That is why we have scrapped Labour's jobs tax, that is why we

:32:07.:32:10.

have taken a million of the lowest paid people out of tax. That is why

:32:10.:32:14.

we have established new rules so you can only go to a tribunal after

:32:14.:32:18.

working somewhere for two years and that's why we have introduced fees

:32:18.:32:22.

for claims in employment tribunals to stop these claims. We are

:32:22.:32:31.

apprenticeships all as a way of helping to give young people jobs.

:32:31.:32:35.

THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband. Speaker, can I join the Prime

:32:35.:32:40.

Minister in paying tribute to Private Matthew Haseldin from 2nd

:32:40.:32:44.

Battalion The Mercian Regiment? He showed immense courage trying to

:32:44.:32:48.

protect local people and our thoughts are with his family and

:32:48.:32:52.

friends. With troops serving in conflict overseas, it is more

:32:52.:32:55.

important that we honour this weekend in Remembrance Sunday all

:32:56.:33:01.

of those who have served our country and are indeed serving our

:33:01.:33:05.

country today. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister tell us how many

:33:05.:33:09.

people entered the UK under the Home Secretary's relaxed border

:33:09.:33:15.

controls? The figures for the period between August 2010 and

:33:15.:33:18.

August 2011 for the number of people who entered the country are

:33:18.:33:22.

published in the normal way. The figures I do have is that the

:33:22.:33:27.

number of people arrested was up by 10% and the number of drug seizures

:33:27.:33:33.

was markedly up and the number of firearms seizures was up by 100%. I

:33:33.:33:37.

think we should be clear about what did and what did not happen here.

:33:37.:33:41.

First, the Home Secretary did agree a pilot for a more targeted

:33:41.:33:46.

approach to border control, this was for people within the European

:33:46.:33:49.

Economic Area. It allowed better targeting of high-risk people and

:33:49.:33:53.

less for others, notably children. This did not compromise security.

:33:53.:33:57.

This was an operational decision but one I fully back and think that

:33:57.:34:04.

she was right to take. But, second - and this is important - decisions

:34:04.:34:08.

were taken to extend this beyond the European Economic Area

:34:08.:34:12.

nationals, this was not authorised by the Home Secretary. Indeed, when

:34:12.:34:16.

specific permission was asked for, it was not granted. Let me just say,

:34:16.:34:20.

this did not mean our borders were left undefended. Passports

:34:20.:34:25.

continued to be checked. As this was an authorised action, as it was

:34:25.:34:29.

contrary to what the Home Secretary agreed, it is right that the head

:34:29.:34:34.

of the Border Force was suspended. I back that action completely.

:34:35.:34:44.
:34:45.:34:45.

Speaker, it is just not good enough. The Prime Minister can't tell us

:34:46.:34:52.

how many people, how many millions of people were let in under the

:34:52.:34:57.

relaxed border controls agreed by the Home Secretary. Mr Speaker,

:34:57.:35:03.

isn't it totally unacceptable that the Home Secretary chose to relax

:35:03.:35:07.

border controls in July and even yesterday she could not tell us

:35:07.:35:13.

which airports and ports it applied to, how many took it up and for how

:35:13.:35:16.

long. She provided those figures and the figures for the number of

:35:17.:35:25.

arrests are as follows. Firearms, 100 increase in seizures. Illegal

:35:25.:35:29.

immigrants 10% increase in arrest. Forged documents, 48% increase. The

:35:29.:35:31.

simple fact that the right honourable gentleman has to accept

:35:31.:35:37.

- and everyone has to accept - is this: Is the head of the UK Border

:35:37.:35:41.

Agency, Rob Whiteman, who also didn't know that this unauthorised

:35:41.:35:49.

action was taking place, he said this - it is very important for the

:35:49.:35:55.

House to understand: Brodie Clark admitted to me on 2nd November that

:35:55.:36:00.

on a number of occasions this year he authorised his staff to go

:36:00.:36:04.

further than ministerial action. I therefore suspended him from his

:36:04.:36:08.

duties. In my opinion it was right for officials to have recommended

:36:08.:36:13.

the pilot so we focus attention on higher risk to our border. It is

:36:13.:36:17.

unacceptable that one of my senior officials went further than was

:36:17.:36:20.

approved. That is why he was suspended. That is why the Home

:36:20.:36:25.

Secretary backed that decision. It is an important issue to understand

:36:25.:36:29.

that Brodie Clark was suspended by the head of the UK Border Agency.

:36:29.:36:33.

It was a decision quite rightly taken by him, backed by the Home

:36:33.:36:40.

Secretary, backed by me. Isn't it utterly typical, Mr Speaker, when

:36:40.:36:49.

things go wrong, it is nothing to do with them?

:36:49.:36:54.

THE SPEAKER: Order. Let me emphasise there are members on both

:36:54.:37:01.

sides of the House shouting their heads off. Members of Youth

:37:01.:37:06.

Parliament last Friday... Order! Order! Who spoke brilliantly and

:37:06.:37:10.

passionately disagreed with each other but they didn't shout at each

:37:10.:37:16.

other. Mr Ed Miliband? Mr Speaker, what did the Home Secretary say in

:37:16.:37:20.

the past when she was in opposition when things went wrong on

:37:20.:37:24.

immigration? She said, "I'm sick and tired of Government Ministers

:37:24.:37:31.

who simply blame other people when things go wrong." Now the Prime

:37:31.:37:34.

Minister said yesterday in his evidence to the Liaison Committee

:37:34.:37:39.

about the relaxation of border controls in the last few months,

:37:39.:37:45.

"Clearly, it's not acceptable and it's not acceptable it went on for

:37:45.:37:49.

so long." Mr Speaker, why did the Home Secretary allow it to happen?

:37:49.:37:54.

On the one hand, he is trying to blame me for not taking

:37:54.:37:59.

responsibility and quote my words "taking responsibility" and saying

:37:59.:38:03.

what isn't acceptable. I have to say having a lecture in

:38:03.:38:08.

responsibility from a party that trebled immigration, that let an

:38:08.:38:15.

extra 2.2 million people into our country, that allowed everyone from

:38:15.:38:19.

Eastern Europe to come here with no transitional controls, that built

:38:19.:38:25.

up a backlog of 500,000 asylum claims and no apology about it.

:38:25.:38:28.

Even today, when the Leader of the Opposition is asked whether too

:38:28.:38:34.

many people were let into our country, his answer was very simple

:38:34.:38:39.

- no. Mr Speaker, he's been the Prime Minister for 18 months. He

:38:39.:38:44.

can't keep saying, "It's nothing to do with me." It is his

:38:44.:38:48.

responsibility. A month ago, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister gave a

:38:48.:38:53.

speech on boarder controls called Reclaiming Our Borders. Mr Speaker,

:38:53.:38:57.

while he was boasting about reclaiming our borders, his Home

:38:57.:39:01.

Secretary was relaxing our borders. Doesn't the Prime Minister think he

:39:01.:39:06.

should at least have known? pilot that the Home Secretary

:39:06.:39:11.

introduced meant more arrests, more firearms seized, more forged

:39:11.:39:16.

documents found. That is the truth of it. The fact is that officials

:39:16.:39:19.

went further than Home Office Ministers authorised, that is what

:39:19.:39:23.

is wrong, that is why someone had to be suspended. That was the right

:39:23.:39:31.

decision. He asks what we have done. Let me tell him. We are completing

:39:31.:39:37.

e-borders so every flight will be checked from next April. We got the

:39:37.:39:41.

first six months of this year, we seized more drugs than in the whole

:39:41.:39:46.

of last year. Last year, we rejected 400,000 applications for

:39:46.:39:52.

visas. We turned away 68,000 people without the correct documents. I'm

:39:52.:39:56.

determined we have tough border controls and finally we have a Home

:39:56.:40:02.

Office and an Immigration Minister that want to cut immigration.

:40:02.:40:04.

Speaker, anyone listening to the Prime Minister would think his

:40:04.:40:09.

policy has been a great success. It is a fiasco! It is a complete

:40:09.:40:13.

fiasco! Now the one thing he can't claim to know anything about is

:40:13.:40:20.

cuts to the UK Border Force. Can he confirm how many UK Border staff

:40:20.:40:23.

are going to be cut under his Government? By the end of this

:40:23.:40:28.

Parliament, there will be 18,000 people working for the UK Border

:40:28.:40:32.

Agency which is the same number as were working for the UK Border

:40:32.:40:37.

Agency in 2006 when he was sitting in the Treasury and determining the

:40:37.:40:44.

budgets. He asks about what we have done in 18 months in office on

:40:44.:40:50.

immigration. Let me tell him. The first-ever limit on work visas from

:40:50.:40:54.

outside the European Union. We have stopped more than 470 colleges from

:40:54.:40:59.

bringing in bogus foreign students. We have cut student visas by 70,000.

:40:59.:41:05.

Anyone who comes here to get married has to speak English. We

:41:05.:41:08.

are ending automatic settlement rights and stopping the nonsense of

:41:08.:41:11.

people misusing the Human Rights Act. In 18 months we have done more

:41:12.:41:18.

to control immigration than he did in 13 years. Mr Speaker, the truth

:41:18.:41:25.

is it's a fiasco and he knows it. That is the reality. It is a... Mr

:41:25.:41:31.

Speaker, it is a pattern with this Government. Broken promises. Gross

:41:31.:41:36.

incompetence. Blame everybody else. He's an out of touch Prime Minister

:41:36.:41:42.

leading a shambolic Government. ever, he completely lost his way!

:41:42.:41:50.

LAUGHTER I think he should spend a little more time listening to the

:41:50.:41:57.

author of Blue Labour. He said this: "Labour lied about the extent

:41:58.:42:07.
:42:08.:42:11.

of immigration." Where's the apology? Thank you, Mr Speaker. On

:42:11.:42:16.

Friday 3 Commando Brigade will be marching through the streets of

:42:16.:42:19.

Plymouth on their homecoming parade. I know the Prime Minister will be

:42:19.:42:23.

with us in spirit. Would he today like to send a message of support

:42:23.:42:26.

to these brave and very professional Royal Marines of whom

:42:26.:42:30.

we are all so very proud? I will certainly join my honourable friend

:42:30.:42:33.

in doing that. I know that the whole of the South West and the

:42:33.:42:38.

whole country is incredibly proud of the Marines and we are proud of

:42:38.:42:43.

3 Commando Brigade who will be marching through Plymouth. I send

:42:43.:42:46.

my very best wishes for the homecoming parade. We should put on

:42:46.:42:50.

record what they have achieved in Task Force Helmand. They carried

:42:50.:42:57.

out 37,000 patrols. They found over 400 IEDs. They have made a real

:42:58.:43:01.

difference to the safety and security of that country and the

:43:01.:43:08.

safety of our country, too. Does the Prime Minister think it is

:43:08.:43:12.

right and proper and defensible that the Royal Bank of Scotland

:43:12.:43:15.

which received massive bail-out during the crisis should be paying

:43:16.:43:20.

over �500 million out in bonuses this year? No, I don't think it is

:43:20.:43:25.

acceptable. It hasn't yet set its figures for bonus payments. The

:43:25.:43:29.

British Government is a seriously large shareholder in RBS and we

:43:29.:43:34.

will be making our views known. joining me in giving our

:43:34.:43:41.

condolences to the relatives of the Red Arrows pilot killed at RAF

:43:41.:43:45.

Scampton yesterday, will the Prime Minister acknowledge the overriding

:43:45.:43:50.

need for safety and that our campaign to save RAF Scampton from

:43:50.:43:56.

closure is not just based on sentiment for the historic home of

:43:56.:43:59.

the Dambusters but on the overriding need for the safe

:43:59.:44:05.

uncluttered skies above North Lincoln shirp which the Red --

:44:05.:44:10.

Lincolnshire which the Red Arrows need to practice safely? It comes

:44:10.:44:15.

on top of a second accident that happened in the Red Arrows. This

:44:15.:44:19.

has been a very tragic time for something that the whole country

:44:19.:44:22.

loves and I know the home to them in Lincolnshire is extremely

:44:22.:44:25.

important. We must get to the bottom of what happened. I

:44:25.:44:30.

understand why he wants to stand up for the airbase in his constituency.

:44:30.:44:36.

Thank you. The trade unions yesterday published data showing my

:44:36.:44:40.

constituency has seen the largest growth in youth unemployment in

:44:40.:44:43.

this country. Given we won't have the opportunity to question the

:44:43.:44:46.

Prime Minister on unemployment numbers next week, why is he

:44:46.:44:51.

letting young people down in my constituency? We face a difficult

:44:51.:44:53.

situation with unemployment including amongst young people,

:44:53.:44:56.

right across the country and we need to do everything we can to

:44:56.:45:00.

help people back into work. That is why there is record investment

:45:00.:45:03.

going into apprenticeships, record investment going into the work

:45:03.:45:08.

programme. The real need is to grow the private sector. It is a time

:45:08.:45:11.

that whoever was in Government would be having to make reductions

:45:11.:45:15.

in the public sector. He shakes his head. Any Government - look across

:45:15.:45:19.

Europe at the reductions. We need to get the private sector growing.

:45:19.:45:28.

That is what this Government is Developing considerable potential

:45:28.:45:33.

for jobs in the energy sector is crucial for economic recovery in my

:45:33.:45:36.

constituency as is providing skills to take on the jobs. Will the Prime

:45:36.:45:40.

Minister ensure the government does all it can to fund the completion

:45:40.:45:44.

of the new high-school in Lowestoft that will play such an important

:45:44.:45:48.

role in giving young people the skills in a deprived area?

:45:48.:45:51.

Honourable Friend makes an important point about this local

:45:51.:45:56.

school and the skills it will bring. This year, Suffolk has an extra �33

:45:56.:46:00.

million in capital funds and it is for the local authority to decide

:46:00.:46:03.

how to spend money, but I would make the point that school capital

:46:03.:46:08.

available throughout this Parliament amounts to �15.9 billion,

:46:08.:46:16.

so money is therefore important This weekend the nation will pause

:46:17.:46:23.

to remember paying tribute to hour war dead. At Cenotaph across the

:46:23.:46:27.

nation we will pay homage to men and women who have paid the Supreme

:46:27.:46:29.

sacrifice in conflict down the years. Would the Prime Minister

:46:30.:46:36.

agree that whether it is in shops, schools, churches or on football

:46:36.:46:41.

shirts, where there is a desire to display the tribute in a non-

:46:41.:46:46.

partisan way it should not just be allowed, but positively promoted?

:46:46.:46:49.

completely agree with the Honourable Gentleman and sense the

:46:49.:46:53.

entire house does as well. I think it's a remarkable achievement of

:46:53.:46:57.

the Royal British Legion and the country as a hole that over the

:46:57.:47:02.

past years we have reintroduced the sense of the silence taking place

:47:02.:47:06.

on the 11th hour of the 11th day. I think it is absolutely right and

:47:06.:47:09.

appropriate in Northern Ireland where so many people have served so

:47:09.:47:13.

bravely in our armed forces and from both sides of the border.

:47:13.:47:17.

Whenever I visit the Royal Irish Regiment you are struck by how many

:47:17.:47:20.

people from both sides of the borders have served in the armed

:47:20.:47:24.

forces. Less family breakdown would reduce

:47:24.:47:29.

the costs loaded onto Allah economy, so will the Prime Minister

:47:29.:47:34.

encourage health authorities across the whole country to take part in

:47:34.:47:39.

care for the pilot schemes where volunteer parents offer support to

:47:39.:47:42.

new parents in the early years of their family life which is when

:47:42.:47:48.

half of all break-ups occur. honourable friend has a great

:47:48.:47:51.

record in pushing forward this vital idea. It is a tragic fact

:47:52.:47:55.

that so many couples break-up after the arrival of the first child

:47:55.:47:59.

because of the stresses and strains it brings. It is dreadful for the

:47:59.:48:02.

couple's and dreadful for the children. We spend a huge amount in

:48:02.:48:06.

the country of dealing with social breakdown and in my view we should

:48:06.:48:10.

spend more to help keep families together and relationship advice

:48:10.:48:20.
:48:20.:48:21.

and support, as my Honourable On Friday, the UN Security Council

:48:21.:48:25.

will consider the democratically conveyed Palestinian request for

:48:25.:48:31.

full membership of the United Nations. Might the international

:48:31.:48:35.

community not do more to advance the prospect of a to state solution

:48:35.:48:39.

by doing more to create a to state processed and in that context,

:48:39.:48:42.

would he insure that the UK representative casts a positive

:48:42.:48:48.

vote on Friday and doesn't go for abstention? My Right Honourable

:48:48.:48:50.

Friend the Foreign Secretary will make a full statement to the House

:48:50.:48:53.

about this issue and a few moments. Let me say this. The British

:48:54.:48:57.

government is fully behind the two state solution but I profoundly

:48:57.:49:03.

believe that the way you get a to state solution is not through

:49:03.:49:08.

declarations at the UN, the way you get it is through the two potential

:49:08.:49:11.

States, Israel and Palestine, sitting down and negotiating. All

:49:11.:49:17.

of our efforts should be put towards making that happen.

:49:17.:49:26.

(WHITE)THE SPEAKER: (BLUE)(CAPNEXT). The winter fuel payment provides

:49:26.:49:31.

valuable help with paying their bills. Individuals are free to

:49:31.:49:34.

donate their payment to charity if they wish, but it must be a

:49:34.:49:38.

decision for them. I thanked the Prime Minister for the question

:49:38.:49:43.

answer and I'd like to congratulate Peter Whyman for coming up with an

:49:43.:49:49.

idea where people can donate their winter fuel allowance where they do

:49:49.:49:53.

not need it. Would the government try and include an option on the

:49:53.:49:55.

letter sent to all of the over sixties about the winter fuel

:49:56.:49:59.

allowance to allow the donation to be donated automatically to the

:49:59.:50:04.

appeal? I will look at the suggestion she makes, but it is

:50:04.:50:11.

very important that we keep the promises about keeping up winter

:50:11.:50:15.

fuel and cold weather payments. I would not want to see any pressure

:50:15.:50:18.

unnecessarily put on people to do something that might not be in

:50:19.:50:25.

their own best interests. The operational instruction from

:50:25.:50:35.
:50:35.:50:36.

the UK Border Agency on 28th July says we might see checking under 18

:50:36.:50:38.

year-olds against the warnings in this. Did anyone in the Home Office

:50:38.:50:44.

clear that document, and given the conflicting stories between the

:50:44.:50:48.

Home Secretary officials and her own version, will he publish all

:50:48.:50:55.

the ministerial instructions to the UK order agency? He is trying

:50:55.:50:59.

desperately to make up the ground lost by his leader, but he rather

:50:59.:51:04.

lost the house in the process. The point I would make to him is that

:51:04.:51:12.

there is going to be an inquiry carried out by the Chief Inspector

:51:12.:51:15.

of the ordinary, so the chief inspector who found out what was

:51:15.:51:18.

going wrong in terms of undertaking the didn't have the permission of

:51:18.:51:28.
:51:28.:51:31.

ministers and all of these issues On Christmas Day 1914, British and

:51:31.:51:35.

German troops put down their weapons and played a football match

:51:35.:51:38.

in no-man's-land. The following day the bloody hostilities resumed and

:51:38.:51:44.

we today where the poppy in remembrance of our war dead. Will

:51:44.:51:47.

the Prime Minister join me in condemning the outrageous decision

:51:47.:51:50.

by Fifa or to refuse the home nations their request to wear a

:51:50.:51:55.

poppy on their shirts this weekend as a simple mark of respect and

:51:55.:52:01.

I think the Honourable Lady Nott speaks just the the whole house,

:52:01.:52:05.

but a whole country, by being completely baffled and frankly

:52:05.:52:09.

angry by the decision made by Fifa. If teams want to be able to put the

:52:09.:52:13.

poppy on their shirt, as many teams do in our Football League, they

:52:13.:52:16.

should be able to and national level whether it is the English

:52:16.:52:19.

team or the Welsh team. I think this is an appalling decision and I

:52:19.:52:25.

hope they will reconsider it. As poverty is rising, the Prime

:52:25.:52:28.

Minister is removing the requirement for people to register

:52:28.:52:32.

to vote in Britain, thereby removing millions of people's right

:52:32.:52:36.

to vote. Is seen there for not taking their money with one hand

:52:36.:52:41.

and taking their votes with another -- is the there for not taking

:52:41.:52:44.

their money with one hand and taking votes with another and it is

:52:44.:52:50.

a grotesque distortion of democracy to remove the voting power of the

:52:50.:53:00.
:53:00.:53:00.

most vulnerable? The point I would make is that we are introducing

:53:00.:53:06.

individuals and I can understand why he does not support the idea of

:53:06.:53:10.

making constituencies the same size, because his constituency only has

:53:10.:53:16.

62,000 people in, where his Right Honourable Friend the Member for

:53:16.:53:21.

East Ham represents 91,000 people. I do think it is a basic act of

:53:21.:53:25.

fairness to have seats the same size. It was a demand of the

:53:26.:53:32.

Chartists in the 1840s and I think it's time we introduced it.

:53:32.:53:39.

Is the Prime Minister aware that there is growing evidence increased

:53:39.:53:44.

abuse, intimidation and harassment on Park home sites across the

:53:44.:53:46.

country and tackling needs these problem needs political will and

:53:46.:53:51.

not a large sum of money. Will the Prime Minister give urgency to

:53:51.:53:58.

addressing these issues so that vulnerable parts homeowners need

:53:58.:54:01.

the protection that -- get the protection they need as soon as

:54:01.:54:05.

possible? I have constituency cases myself where people have been

:54:05.:54:09.

treated very badly by Park home owners. There are some extremely

:54:09.:54:14.

good Park home owners to obey the rules and demonstrate

:54:14.:54:17.

responsibility and compassion but there are friendly some who don't.

:54:17.:54:20.

We are committed to providing a better deal to residents by

:54:20.:54:23.

improving their rights and increasing protection from bad site

:54:23.:54:26.

owners and double arrange for her to have a meeting with the housing

:54:26.:54:30.

minister so they can discuss this urgent action -- I will arrange for

:54:30.:54:35.

her. In these difficult economic times it is more important that our

:54:35.:54:38.

politics are in touch with the people we represent. Would the

:54:38.:54:43.

Prime Minister therefore welcome the first successful people on a

:54:43.:54:45.

parliamentary Speakers placement scheme you are inspiring

:54:45.:54:48.

individuals who would never normally get the chance to work in

:54:48.:54:51.

politics. Would he agree to meet with them and listen to their views

:54:51.:54:56.

on the relevance of the issues today and Perhaps how all of us our

:54:56.:55:00.

doing in our politics? I joined the Right Honourable Lady in the point

:55:00.:55:04.

she makes. She has made a huge impact on the impact of social

:55:05.:55:07.

mobility and trying to help people who have not had good chances in

:55:07.:55:12.

life and I applaud her. If there is time in my busy diary I will do as

:55:12.:55:16.

she says. I do think there is an important opportunity for everyone

:55:16.:55:19.

in the house to look at organisations like the social

:55:20.:55:23.

mobility foundation that provide opportunities for internships from

:55:24.:55:27.

inner-city schools to have the experience of working in Palmer. I

:55:27.:55:30.

have used the scheme as other members of the Cabinet have, and I

:55:30.:55:33.

think it is an excellent scheme to give people a good chance to see

:55:33.:55:37.

what we do in this place, not just on Wednesday at 12 o'clock, but

:55:37.:55:46.

Does my right honourable friend think it is right for Honourable

:55:46.:55:50.

Members to take instruction from the GMB about how to vote on

:55:50.:56:00.
:56:00.:56:00.

amendments? I do think the Honourable Lady raises a serious

:56:00.:56:04.

issue and I can sense a bitter resistance! That is perhaps not rip

:56:04.:56:08.

-- surprising when 85 % of their money comes from the trade unions,

:56:08.:56:12.

but the fact is when we discuss legislation in the house it should

:56:12.:56:17.

be ringing our judgment an hour and ideas and not just picking up a

:56:17.:56:26.

tired old free from a trade union - - Our Ideas. -- a tired old brief.

:56:26.:56:31.

In my constituency there are over 3,000 people claiming jobseeker's

:56:31.:56:34.

allowance for the latest figures show that there were only 300 job

:56:34.:56:38.

vacancies available. Jobs are being lost in the public sector and the

:56:38.:56:42.

private sector. How high does unemployment have to go before the

:56:42.:56:46.

Prime Minister will accept that his economic policies simply aren't

:56:46.:56:51.

working? Unemployment is too high today. I want to see it come down

:56:51.:56:55.

from its already high levels. What we have to do in order to make that

:56:55.:56:59.

happen is put resources into the apprentice scheme and put it into

:56:59.:57:03.

the work programme, to make sure we do all the things that help

:57:03.:57:07.

businesses employ people. That is what this government is doing. We

:57:07.:57:11.

are cutting corporation tax and introducing enterprise zones and

:57:11.:57:15.

doing everything we can to help businesses and we will do that in

:57:15.:57:20.

her constituency and through the country.

:57:20.:57:25.

Italian bond yields have jumped by more than a percentage point to an

:57:25.:57:29.

unsustainable 8.1 %. Could the Prime Minister tell us what euro-

:57:29.:57:35.

zone leaders must do to stop the contagion? I do think my Honourable

:57:35.:57:37.

Friend makes important point. If you don't have credibility about

:57:37.:57:46.

your plans to deal with your DEC's, and they will not lend you any

:57:46.:57:50.

money. That is what we are seeing in countries like Greece and Italy

:57:50.:57:53.

where the price of borrowing money is getting to a totally

:57:53.:57:57.

unsustainable level. It is a lesson for us to have sustainable plans to

:57:57.:58:05.

get on top of Our debts. In terms of Europe, as we look in Europe,

:58:05.:58:09.

and with his -- decide on a decisive right down about the debt,

:58:09.:58:13.

people look at other countries and Unita have in place the biggest

:58:13.:58:19.

possible firewall. -- you need to have in place. Euro-zone leaders

:58:19.:58:23.

urgently need to put flesh on the bones and figures on the size of

:58:23.:58:31.

the firewall. Last year youth unemployment at Tameside stood at

:58:31.:58:37.

an unacceptable 25 per smack - 20 %, one in five, and now stands at 34 %

:58:37.:58:41.

which is frankly shocking. In light of this, does he still believe that

:58:41.:58:46.

the decision to scrap the future jobs fund was the right one? Let me

:58:46.:58:52.

make the point that under Labour youth unemployment went up by 40 %.

:58:52.:58:57.

On the issue of the future jobs fund, the evidence we received on

:58:57.:59:01.

coming into government was that the future jobs fund was three or four

:59:01.:59:07.

times more expensive than other job creation schemes and in many parts

:59:07.:59:12.

of the country including in the West Midlands the percentage of

:59:12.:59:17.

jobs in the private sector was as low as two or 3%. It was right to

:59:17.:59:21.

scrap the future jobs fund and put in its place apprenticeships, the

:59:21.:59:24.

work programme and work experience which will make a difference to

:59:24.:59:32.

young people. Mr Speaker, war is a failure of

:59:32.:59:37.

politics. The people who go to war are not politicians, they are brave

:59:37.:59:40.

service people who die in the service of the country. Could I

:59:40.:59:44.

urge my Right Honourable friend to write to fever to point out that

:59:45.:59:50.

the poppy is not a political symbol -- FIFA, it is a symbol that says

:59:50.:59:52.

we respect the sacrifice that people have made on behalf of their

:59:52.:59:57.

countries. I will certainly do as my Honourable friend says. It is

:59:57.:00:01.

not just an issue of writing to FIFA, it is asking them and she

:00:01.:00:05.

bodies, including the FA, to take a very strong line about this. As he

:00:05.:00:11.

says, this is not of left or right, Labour or Conservative, we all wear

:00:11.:00:15.

a poppy with pride. We all do it, even if we don't approve of the

:00:15.:00:19.

wars people were fighting in. We do it to one of the fact that these

:00:19.:00:24.

people sacrifice their lives for us. It is absolutely vital for FIFA to

:00:24.:00:27.

understand it and a clear message going out of the house can make

:00:27.:00:34.

them think again. Building on the last answer that

:00:34.:00:38.

the Prime Minister gave, given the fact that Italy is now on an

:00:38.:00:41.

incredible fiscal path, in the words of the Prime Minister, will

:00:41.:00:49.

he assist the G20 finance ministers to meet and help create the

:00:49.:00:53.

European financial stability package in such a way that helps

:00:53.:00:57.

the Eurozone? The Honourable Gentleman makes an important point,

:00:57.:01:00.

but the first responsibility for building is bail-out fund has got

:01:00.:01:05.

to be with the euro-zone members. The problem with the G20 is, as we

:01:05.:01:11.

discussed in the House, you cannot ask the g 20 and the IMF to do

:01:11.:01:15.

things that the Eurozone members are not prepared to do. We do stand

:01:15.:01:18.

ready to boost the IMF and we do want to help countries in distress.

:01:18.:01:23.

We do not want to see our trading partners collapse. We understand

:01:23.:01:26.

that even though we don't support membership of the euro, country's

:01:26.:01:31.

falling out of the euro could be very painful for our economy. It is

:01:31.:01:36.

their currency Doak and they have to sort out the problems. -- it is

:01:36.:01:42.

their currency though. In reply to my Honourable Friend to

:01:42.:01:46.

the member for Orpington referred to a firewall in these bail-out.

:01:46.:01:49.

Would he accept that what we need is structural renegotiation of the

:01:49.:01:52.

treaty's given the impact it is having on the United Kingdom and to

:01:52.:01:56.

use a cricketing analogy, which she will be aware of, he would not be

:01:56.:02:01.

sent in with a broken bat, he would be sent in with a new bat and the

:02:01.:02:11.
:02:11.:02:14.

There is a long history in my party of cricketing metaphors and Europe

:02:14.:02:18.

ending and happily, so I don't think I will necessarily follow

:02:18.:02:26.

down the park. -- ending unhappily. But we will defend our country and

:02:26.:02:30.

we got something back in the treaty, which was to get back out of the

:02:30.:02:33.

bail-out fund. If there a future treaty changes and some European

:02:33.:02:36.

countries are pushing for them, we will make sure we will do a good

:02:36.:02:45.

deal for Britain and protect the Prime Minister's Questions comes to

:02:45.:02:50.

an end. It was not that difficult that the frontbench exchanges were

:02:50.:02:56.

dominated by this row over Theresa May and what she did and didn't

:02:57.:03:00.

order about border control in the pilot programme. A general sense

:03:00.:03:04.

that I'm getting from the tweets - we will hear from Jo in a minute -

:03:04.:03:09.

Ed Miliband didn't quite score the goal that he hoped to do. This

:03:09.:03:12.

business of the England team not being allowed to wear poppies

:03:12.:03:17.

during the match against Spain this weekend came up several times. I am

:03:17.:03:20.

sure some of the questions were planted so the Prime Minister could

:03:20.:03:25.

make a robust statement about it. That last question there from Bill

:03:25.:03:29.

Cash was on the eurozone situation, given the enormity of what has been

:03:29.:03:33.

happening in Greece and in Italy, and how the eurozone is still the

:03:33.:03:38.

biggest threat to whether Britain goes into recession or not, it was

:03:38.:03:42.

interesting that it did barely merit a mention. You sometimes

:03:42.:03:47.

wonder if Parliament is tuned in to the big issues of PMQs. Yes, it is

:03:47.:03:53.

about what gets MPs going. You are right, the performance of Ed

:03:53.:03:56.

Miliband was the subject of the vast majority of the e-mails. Lots

:03:56.:04:00.

of people felt it was the wrong subject for him to go on. "A clear

:04:00.:04:04.

win for David Cameron today. Labour can never win on immigration just

:04:04.:04:12.

as the Tories can never win on the NHS." This one: "Ed Miliband is

:04:12.:04:16.

failing to consolidate the gains he made over the summer. Terrible

:04:16.:04:23.

performance." This from Don Smith, "Ed Miliband was asking questions

:04:23.:04:29.

that were answered yesterday by the Home Secretary." Alan Webb, "Ed

:04:29.:04:33.

Miliband sank without trace today. He should have left the issue of

:04:33.:04:38.

border controls well alone after the mess his own party made of it.

:04:38.:04:45.

He should choose his questions more carefully." There were some in

:04:45.:04:49.

favour. This from Ian, "Ed Miliband has outperformed the Prime Minister

:04:49.:04:55.

again this week. He did very well to focus on the detail of the

:04:55.:05:00.

borders issue." Ian, "Ed had an open goal today and he scored.

:05:00.:05:05.

David struggled." Nick Robinson, where are we now on this? I have

:05:05.:05:09.

changed my mind almost every day. I began by thinking Theresa May was

:05:09.:05:13.

safe on this. By the beginning of the week, I thought it looked a bit

:05:13.:05:19.

dodgy for her. Given the statement from the Chief Executive of the

:05:19.:05:22.

Border Agency that Brodie Clark did say to him I'm going much further

:05:22.:05:26.

than the Minister told me, it would seem that could be her get out of

:05:26.:05:30.

jail card? That's right. If these sorts of stories become a he says

:05:30.:05:33.

she says in which you struggle to remember the names and the job

:05:33.:05:39.

titles and quite what it was, it is easier for a Minister. But if

:05:39.:05:43.

Brodie Clark goes before MPs next week, on Tuesday, and produces a

:05:43.:05:48.

piece of evidence that says that, "I can prove that the Home

:05:48.:05:52.

Secretary told me to do this" then she would be in real difficulty.

:05:52.:05:57.

That would be a game changer? is no indication in his statement,

:05:57.:06:00.

the head of the union that represents him was on Newsnight, he

:06:00.:06:04.

didn't suggest there was such evidence. So my instinct is it's

:06:04.:06:07.

awkward for the Home Secretary. It's not been comfortable for her.

:06:07.:06:12.

It will fuel anxiety about immigration that was anyway coming

:06:12.:06:17.

up through the largely Tory supporting newspapers and because

:06:17.:06:20.

there's another of these petitions that will put another motion on the

:06:20.:06:26.

order paip probably of the House of Commons about a new limit -- Order

:06:26.:06:30.

Paper probably of the House of Commons about a new limit. In part,

:06:30.:06:35.

Ed Miliband didn't go for the detail. It was striking when Chris

:06:35.:06:41.

Lesley stood up and said, "Will you publish some papers?" The Prime

:06:41.:06:45.

Minister hasn't got an answer as to why he won't publish papers, other

:06:45.:06:49.

than say wait for an inquiry which we know won't report until January.

:06:49.:06:59.

It seems to me that would have been much more fruitful for the Leader

:06:59.:07:01.

of the Opposition. He was allowing the Prime Minister to go through

:07:01.:07:06.

the detail. The detail doesn't convict the Government yet. An open

:07:06.:07:12.

goal but he stuck the ball over the bar? I don't accept that. Today

:07:13.:07:17.

with very lengthy answers he justified entirely the actions that

:07:17.:07:20.

were taken and praised the virtues of the process. Most people

:07:20.:07:23.

watching who think that the Government's first responsibility

:07:23.:07:27.

is to maintain its borders will think that is out of touch.

:07:27.:07:30.

didn't say the pilot was unacceptable. He said the Border

:07:30.:07:35.

Agency going much further than the pilot was unacceptable? The pilot

:07:35.:07:39.

that covered all these ports, airports, every single person in

:07:39.:07:42.

the European Economic Area, means the Home Secretary has no idea how

:07:42.:07:46.

many people came in unchecked over that period and didn't bother to

:07:46.:07:49.

find out. That was acceptable? I don't think so. I think people are

:07:49.:07:54.

very worried about this. I thought Ed Miliband spoke to those worries.

:07:54.:08:00.

The Prime Minister wasn't regarding the pilot as unacceptable, he was

:08:00.:08:05.

regarding what Brodie Clark is claimed to have done as

:08:05.:08:09.

unacceptable. He may be right, he may be wrong, but I don't see the

:08:09.:08:12.

inconsistency between yesterday and today? Well, I think the public

:08:12.:08:16.

will see his words yesterday where he said what had happened was

:08:16.:08:20.

unacceptable. If he is saying today that it was only the extensions to

:08:20.:08:23.

the pilot that were unacceptable, or is he saying the fact that you

:08:23.:08:28.

have, we have no idea how many people entered the country without

:08:28.:08:33.

proper checks from a huge area like the European Economic Area over a

:08:33.:08:36.

large timescale? If he is saying that is acceptable, he is more out

:08:36.:08:40.

of touch than we thought. It may or may not be acceptable. What

:08:40.:08:44.

wouldn't be acceptable to this Government since it was obviously

:08:44.:08:47.

acceptable to the last Government because you did the same? Year on

:08:47.:08:51.

year, we tightened up security checks... There were times when you

:08:51.:08:54.

opened our borders, that is accepted? We are talking about the

:08:54.:09:00.

checks at borders. We tightened up... No, no. We introduced the

:09:00.:09:03.

technology... There were periods when you opened our borders in a

:09:03.:09:07.

similar way to this pilot? What do you mean? There were times when you

:09:07.:09:12.

said you don't need to do this, the normal checks you have to do. There

:09:12.:09:15.

were times at Heathrow Airport when you said don't look at those who

:09:15.:09:19.

are on a possible wanted list. So it's happened before under both

:09:20.:09:24.

governments? What we are saying is... But do you accept that?

:09:24.:09:28.

What I accept is that all governments - and there was a

:09:28.:09:31.

consensus on this - all governments, Labour and Conservative, wanted to

:09:31.:09:36.

maintain and increase and tighten border controls. That doesn't

:09:36.:09:42.

seem... That seems to have happened. The borders are not that tight.

:09:42.:09:46.

They seem to be for reasons of expediency that you didn't want a

:09:46.:09:51.

lot of people queuing to get into the country. Last summer, some

:09:51.:09:55.

people were having to wait three hours at Heathrow to get in? What

:09:55.:10:00.

we were doing on the pilot was getting proper judgment and risk

:10:00.:10:03.

assessment by individual Border Agency officials. That is why it is

:10:03.:10:06.

so important what the Prime Minister said, it increased the

:10:06.:10:09.

number of illegal immigrants that were detected. It was telling the

:10:09.:10:12.

staff you have to exercise some discretion, but it was not on the

:10:13.:10:17.

scale that appears to have happened. Labour are making heavy weather of

:10:17.:10:22.

it. There was a pilot. We believe... It was agreed by Home Office

:10:22.:10:26.

Ministers? The pilot. You didn't know about it? It was a legitimate

:10:27.:10:32.

operation. I didn't know about it. What then clearly happened was that

:10:32.:10:36.

Brodie Clark went way beyond the agreed terms of the pilot and we is

:10:36.:10:40.

now have a clear statement by the head of the UK Border Agency, he

:10:40.:10:44.

has endorsed what the Home Secretary said. Nick? Let me

:10:44.:10:47.

confess, I have been out of the country for a couple of days while

:10:47.:10:53.

this story was brewing up. I was in Brussels. The slight curiosity is

:10:53.:10:57.

we have the Prime Minister saying more people arrested, more guns

:10:57.:11:02.

were found. Is this a policy a failure or a success? That is a

:11:02.:11:06.

very good question. Both parties are desperate to show and sound

:11:06.:11:10.

like they are tough. Of course, there is an element in which all

:11:11.:11:13.

border controls are a balance between the consumer element which

:11:13.:11:19.

is do people wait for hours and get very cross about it? There are

:11:19.:11:25.

businessmen waiting, families with kids. Versus security. There is a

:11:25.:11:31.

balance. Let me ask, was the pilot a success? The pilot has not been

:11:31.:11:38.

evaluated. You have been boasting... The purpose of the pilot was to get

:11:38.:11:42.

focus on people coming through the country's borders that were thought

:11:42.:11:48.

to be potentially risky. Not have simply a tick in the box system and

:11:48.:11:52.

you can be a seven-year-old on a regulated school trip or a 25-year-

:11:52.:11:55.

old with something in your past and you are all treated the same way.

:11:55.:11:58.

The purpose was to get the Border Agency officials to exercise some

:11:58.:12:03.

judgment and focus on the people who they thought were the likely

:12:03.:12:08.

risk cases. You got 10% more... That appears to be the reason why

:12:08.:12:17.

we have more illegal immigrants. it was a success? The 10% is not a

:12:17.:12:18.

proper evaluation? The pilot was agreed by Ministers and we stand by

:12:19.:12:23.

the need to have a pilot. What we don't stand by was Brodie Clark

:12:23.:12:26.

doing something different. I don't understand how you can claim it

:12:26.:12:30.

caught out 10% more people than the old system and yet not be prepared

:12:30.:12:36.

to say it was a success? We know those figures. We don't know.

:12:36.:12:39.

we do know is the reason for the pilot - it is being suggested the

:12:39.:12:44.

reason of the pilot was to weaken border controls. The purpose was to

:12:44.:12:47.

strengthen and make more effective our border controls. The Prime

:12:47.:12:51.

Minister had a teed up question on FIFA's ban on the England team

:12:51.:12:56.

wearing poppies. He wants to say something strongly about it? Yes.

:12:56.:12:58.

He's offering himself around to television companies to say

:12:59.:13:03.

something. He thinks this is an issue he feels strongly about and

:13:03.:13:10.

he knows the country will feel strongly about it as well. Should

:13:10.:13:14.

the FIFA, should the England team defy the FIFA ban and walk out to

:13:15.:13:19.

the pitch with their poppies on their chests? Yes, they should. We

:13:19.:13:23.

should tell FIFA to go and take a running jump. When the whole

:13:23.:13:28.

country comes together this weekend for remembrance, it is a complete

:13:28.:13:31.

disgrace that England's national team would not be allowed to wear

:13:31.:13:36.

the poppy with pride as everyone else does. Should the England team

:13:36.:13:40.

defy the FIFA ban? I want to see the England team wearing their

:13:40.:13:47.

poppies. They should. So they should? What I would like to see is

:13:47.:13:50.

FIFA reconsidering what will still happen. Two for defying the ban.

:13:51.:13:57.

will be looking. Nick, thank you. It was also mentioned today the

:13:57.:14:01.

issue of party funding. A couple of weeks ago I asked Lord Levy what

:14:01.:14:05.

his advice to Andrew Rosenfeld would be. Good luck was the answer!

:14:06.:14:09.

One that betrayed the idea that raising significant cash for

:14:09.:14:13.

political parties veers between hard and impossible. Once again,

:14:13.:14:16.

the issue of state-funding and donation caps are being discussed

:14:16.:14:26.
:14:26.:14:27.

so Giles has been delving into what How political parties are funded

:14:27.:14:31.

country is a murky issue. The Conservatives have been accused of

:14:31.:14:35.

over-reliance on big-money donors like Lord Ashcroft. People do not

:14:35.:14:38.

understand why people are giving large amounts of money to political

:14:38.:14:42.

parties if they don't get something for it. Labour struggles on its

:14:42.:14:46.

almost total reliance on the unions, who do expect some backing for

:14:46.:14:49.

their buck. If you were to ask every trade unionist, do you want

:14:50.:14:53.

to give the number to the Labour Party, significant numbers will say

:14:53.:14:57.

no. So the minute you shine the light of transparency on the

:14:57.:15:01.

process, the amount of money coming from trade unions will drop.

:15:01.:15:03.

the Liberal Democrats to have always had significantly less than

:15:03.:15:07.

the other two ended up with their biggest donor, Michael Brown, being

:15:07.:15:13.

sent down as a crook. But it's Lib Dem leader and deputy Nick Clegg

:15:13.:15:17.

who has asked for the standards of public life Commission to construct

:15:17.:15:24.

a new format to go under approval, the 4th in seven years, the last,

:15:24.:15:28.

the �50,000 cap on donation in the Phillips inquiry, which narrowly

:15:28.:15:34.

failed. The proposals were fair to all sides, and �50,000 of that what

:15:34.:15:36.

was something we could have lived with on the Labour side and the

:15:36.:15:41.

others could have as well. I don't think either side particularly

:15:41.:15:44.

wanted to succeed, and Labour less. The trade unions basically killed

:15:44.:15:48.

the talks of behind the scenes. No matter what we said at the time,

:15:48.:15:52.

that is what happened. Sorting party funding has always

:15:52.:15:56.

traditionally been like fitting a tyre that is too small on a bike

:15:56.:16:00.

wheel. It is hard. You think once you've tucked in and sorted the

:16:00.:16:03.

problem with the unions and Labour, you have the donors and the Tory

:16:03.:16:08.

problem. You try and sort that and that pops back out again. Sort them

:16:08.:16:14.

both and you have the Lib Dems saying this disadvantages us. If

:16:14.:16:17.

you sort out all three, you discover that what you have come up

:16:17.:16:21.

with won't appeal to the public. It is actually very difficult and it

:16:21.:16:24.

has never been done and it always leaves democracy campaigners more

:16:24.:16:31.

deflated than pumped up. The trick is to devise a scheme for that in

:16:31.:16:36.

return for parties accepting a cap on donation, they get state funding,

:16:36.:16:40.

which exists a short money for opposite -- opposition parties.

:16:40.:16:44.

This would either be block funding, cash per vote, or more likely, a

:16:44.:16:48.

voucher system where we will tick a box for where we wish state money

:16:48.:16:55.

to go, rumours are about �3. What we won political parties to do is

:16:55.:16:59.

engage with the public and in -- earn their crust, if you like, and

:16:59.:17:05.

then a voter ticking a box seems a passive relation between voters and

:17:05.:17:09.

a political party. I think they should work harder for it, frankly.

:17:09.:17:14.

All the party leaders will have to accept, if they don't do it, while

:17:14.:17:17.

they are party leader will have to deal with the scandal affecting

:17:17.:17:21.

their party and donations. If they are not careful their personal

:17:21.:17:26.

reputation will be tarnished because, ultimately, the mix of

:17:26.:17:35.

money and votes and parties is a toxic one. Joining the now is the

:17:35.:17:44.

Liberal Democrat peer, Lord Russell. Joining me now is the Liberal

:17:44.:17:47.

Democrat peer Lord Razzall. You would obviously support this

:17:47.:17:52.

because you get more money with the three Band donation. We don't

:17:52.:17:56.

support it, because even though we would get more money, we wanted

:17:56.:17:59.

take this leaves out of British politics. All three parties could

:17:59.:18:05.

trade insults and I don't think that is appropriate in this context.

:18:05.:18:08.

The important thing about the proposals is they must be taken as

:18:08.:18:13.

a package. You cannot just pick one bit without having the other. If

:18:13.:18:18.

you're going to limit donations to the �50,000 talked about you have

:18:18.:18:21.

to introduce some element of public funding to replace the money would

:18:21.:18:29.

otherwise -- the party would otherwise lose. You mention Michael

:18:29.:18:33.

Brown, and with what happened in him, does it show that the system

:18:33.:18:36.

needs reforming? I think the parties could, with different

:18:36.:18:41.

examples, but yes, I think it does. To have that amount of money given

:18:41.:18:45.

by people, Michael Brown, and no one knows where he is, because he's

:18:45.:18:48.

on the run, and the Sunday Telegraph says he's in the

:18:48.:18:53.

Dominican Republic, he has suddenly popped up before the 2005 election

:18:53.:18:56.

and said he would give us �3 million before the election for

:18:56.:19:02.

though it was not apparent why he wanted it, but he did. We then

:19:02.:19:05.

discovered a lot later that he was convicted for all sorts of

:19:05.:19:09.

fraudulent offences. Just briefly, the state of finances or the

:19:09.:19:16.

Liberal Democrats? A not bad, actually. There was also the part

:19:16.:19:24.

of giving 10 % as a tide from your members. That is, along mode --

:19:24.:19:28.

local council groups to give an allowance to the party. -- among

:19:28.:19:32.

the local council bridge. It does sound sensible, so were due back?

:19:32.:19:37.

think all the parties want to see reform in party funding. It is a

:19:37.:19:40.

very tricky issue. The most important thing was alluded to in

:19:40.:19:44.

the package, and the public really have to have a say in this. It is

:19:44.:19:48.

OK for the political parties to get together and try and square the

:19:48.:19:52.

circle but if you are going to move to something like state funding in

:19:52.:19:55.

these difficult times you have to say to the public, is this

:19:56.:20:00.

something you really want to see. So it is worth taking the time and

:20:00.:20:04.

effort and talk to the public. would come back to whether they

:20:04.:20:06.

would support the funding in that way, but what about your

:20:06.:20:09.

relationships with the unions, bearing in mind Labour is so

:20:09.:20:13.

reliant on the unions of funding, it would completely eradicated in

:20:13.:20:18.

terms of the sorts of the size of money you get. We do not know what

:20:18.:20:23.

the proposals are. Would you back the �50,000 cap? That would be

:20:23.:20:26.

50,000 from each union. We would look at a cap, but it's a world

:20:26.:20:30.

away from looking at an organisation like a trade union.

:20:30.:20:32.

When we talk about trade union money we are talking about

:20:32.:20:36.

individuals, low-paid, part-time workers, in unison, who choose to

:20:36.:20:40.

give �3 a year through their political fund to the Labour Party

:20:40.:20:45.

to support campaigns. That is what we are talking about. There is a

:20:45.:20:48.

difference between a trade union donation what he's talking about,

:20:48.:20:52.

where the union it is affectingly acting as a collecting agency for

:20:52.:20:56.

membership and nobody is saying that should be attacked. But there

:20:56.:21:02.

is a suggestion and has come from Conservatives claiming that in

:21:02.:21:05.

terms of influence, the people will check with the unions before they

:21:05.:21:09.

make amendments to bills. I think that is a nonsense. As

:21:09.:21:12.

parliamentary numbers we get lobbied all the time, not just by

:21:12.:21:16.

trade unions and why were we not listen to public sector workers and

:21:16.:21:19.

manufacturing in the same way we get lobbied by charities and all

:21:19.:21:23.

kinds of organisations. Don't forget, in February the

:21:23.:21:26.

Conservatives were auctioning off jobs in the City, internships for

:21:26.:21:34.

family members. At a Conservative Party fundraiser, this was. People

:21:34.:21:37.

shouldn't really be throwing rocks at Labour on this. David Willetts,

:21:37.:21:41.

in terms of a cap on donation, that would affect the Conservative Party

:21:42.:21:48.

income. We accept the principle of a cap on donations. And �50,000?

:21:48.:21:54.

we have to see what the proposals are, but if there were some

:21:54.:21:57.

suggestions earlier of a cap at �10,000, then the trade-off you

:21:57.:22:02.

face, if you go that low, you increase the need for public

:22:02.:22:05.

spending instead to replace the money you have lost from donations.

:22:05.:22:10.

I think we have to be very careful of anything involving higher public

:22:10.:22:13.

spending and the taxpayers putting in more money. That is not what

:22:13.:22:18.

people want to see happening when times are tough. So you would not

:22:18.:22:22.

be in favour of going to the public to ask for more money? We have to

:22:22.:22:25.

see the proposals, but we are sceptical of anything involving

:22:25.:22:27.

more public spending when we are trying to get a grip on public

:22:27.:22:36.

spending. It is a tiny amount, and as shown in your film, one way is

:22:36.:22:40.

to get people to tick a box, but one of the other ideas around for a

:22:40.:22:44.

long time is that it should match- up to funding so any political

:22:44.:22:48.

party raising so much by a small donation should gets the same back

:22:48.:22:53.

from the Treasury. We don't want to go to the West German system where

:22:53.:22:57.

they are simply funded by the taxpayer irrespective of their

:22:57.:23:03.

contributions made by individual voters. Something else that does

:23:03.:23:07.

matter is that trade unions are individuals, they aggregated to buy

:23:07.:23:10.

policies like the work agreement and there has to be tackled as a

:23:10.:23:19.

priority in a funding proposal. I'm going to read this introduction

:23:19.:23:21.

because Andrew's too busy tweeting. And rest assured, when you read

:23:21.:23:25.

tweets from him they really are from him. But Twitter is awash with

:23:25.:23:28.

imposters who are pretending to be celebrities from the world of

:23:28.:23:38.
:23:38.:23:48.

The Westminster village is all twittering about fake tweeters.

:23:48.:23:52.

Steve Hilton spends all day thinking big thoughts and apart

:23:52.:23:57.

from when he is apparently tweeting things like this when the Daily

:23:57.:23:59.

Telegraph publish unflattering pictures of him drinking a cup of

:23:59.:24:05.

tea. Total Mystique failed to! Launching an inquiry into Daily

:24:05.:24:10.

Telegraph picks. Was rehearsing Dave X is in Number Ten with coffee

:24:10.:24:16.

mug to talk to media. Electric! hoaxers Aviv and struck at

:24:16.:24:21.

Buckingham Palace. How do you explain this tweed from the Queen?

:24:21.:24:24.

One can confirm that the Olympic torch will visit Clarence house

:24:24.:24:27.

where it will be used to light a cigarette for the Duchess of

:24:27.:24:34.

Cornwall. Even fellow hacks have not escaped. Check out this tweet

:24:34.:24:39.

posted from g 20 by a prankster posing as Daily Mail deputy

:24:39.:24:46.

political editor Tim Shipman. me a taxi to the airport, airport!

:24:47.:24:56.
:24:57.:24:58.

We apologise immediately. And we're joined now, as we normally are at

:24:58.:25:00.

this time on a Wednesday, by Conservative MP Peter Bone, who's

:25:00.:25:06.

wife - the famous Mrs Bone - has her very own fake Twitter account.

:25:06.:25:12.

Why do you think somebody could be to blame? Is it because you always

:25:12.:25:20.

mention her? It is quite amusing. It said I never thought I would say

:25:20.:25:27.

this, her rave from the Greeks. A referendum is good enough for them,

:25:27.:25:34.

Mr Cameron... Baking scones to calm my rage. Does Mrs Bone have a

:25:34.:25:40.

twitter account? Know. If she did, would she tweaked that? More

:25:40.:25:46.

moderate than she would tweet. Do people think it is your wife? I was

:25:46.:25:50.

alerted to it by colleagues in the House of Commons saying how funny

:25:50.:25:55.

it was. What, I said, and at the moment it is very good stuff.

:25:55.:26:00.

clean fun at the moment, not offensive, not bringing Mrs Bone

:26:00.:26:04.

into disrepute? You would be in trouble if that happened. There is

:26:04.:26:08.

a picture of her in her marigolds, so you wouldn't want to tangle with

:26:08.:26:14.

her. Is it a real picture? The S, taken from the BBC, actually. --

:26:14.:26:19.

yes. But of course the next post might say something racist or

:26:19.:26:22.

unacceptable and people have got used to thinking it is Mrs Bone.

:26:22.:26:30.

Then suddenly jumps at them. If it turned nasty, is there anything you

:26:30.:26:34.

could do about it? Not really. I think you can in the States. People

:26:34.:26:39.

can be sent to jail for five years, but here it is a real problem and

:26:39.:26:42.

the way to overcome it is to be up front and say it is not Mrs boning

:26:42.:26:47.

get that out in the public. I'm not really a great one for regulating

:26:47.:26:51.

people. But as long as people know it is not her. How do people know?

:26:51.:26:55.

By coming on shows like this, but there is a danger. For me it is not

:26:55.:26:59.

so serious, but it could be for other people. Do you have a Twitter

:26:59.:27:04.

account? Goodness gracious, no. you have the quill pen and pigeon

:27:04.:27:12.

post? I am about at that stage. Your technology has improved. Do

:27:12.:27:16.

you have a Twitter account? I have an official one. William Hague said

:27:16.:27:20.

they were all written by the civil servants. A jolly good day for the

:27:20.:27:25.

government today, etc. Do you have a Twitter account? I'd do, and

:27:25.:27:30.

there has been a big change in the last year. A bunch of journalists

:27:30.:27:33.

and politicians were talking to themselves, but in the last six

:27:33.:27:36.

months lots more people from Barnsley are following May and they

:27:36.:27:39.

are in little net works themselves and I think Twitter has changed

:27:40.:27:44.

quite a lot. The chief executive of Twitter was in town earlier this

:27:44.:27:50.

week and I discussed it with him. The point he made was that where it

:27:50.:27:54.

played an important role, they can disguise their identity and he

:27:54.:27:59.

thought that if people had been able to see who they were, history

:27:59.:28:05.

might have been different. fakes Steve Hilton has just waited

:28:05.:28:09.

to thank us for the free publicity. No doubt Mrs Bone will be doing the

:28:09.:28:16.

same. Pick the winner. What was the year? 1978. Here we go. Let me have

:28:16.:28:23.

a look. It is Jenny faster, you have one, Jenny Foster from Harvard.

:28:23.:28:28.

That is it for today. Special thanks to our guests of the day.

:28:28.:28:33.

Italian bonds have just hit 7.45 % yield which is probably be on the

:28:33.:28:38.

point of low return for Italian finances. Berlusconi's shares have

:28:38.:28:43.

slumped 10 % as well. We will be back at 11:30am tomorrow, a special

:28:43.:28:47.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn have live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the top political stories of the day.

The pressure is still on the home secretary after the head of the UK Border Agency quit claiming that Theresa May had misled parliament.

Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi says he will step down, but only after he has pushed through economic reforms. So what next for Italy and the eurozone?

Should tax payers help political parties with their fundraising? We speak to Liberal Democrat peer Lord Razzall, who thinks state funding is a good idea.

And as presidents Obama and Sarkozy make a public boo-boo, Andrew and Jo ask what microphone gaffes really teach us about the true state of politics.

With Andrew and Jo today through the show and reviewing PMQs are universities minister David Willetts along with a new member of Ed Miliband's shadow cabinet Michael Dugher.


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