09/11/2011 Daily Politics


09/11/2011

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Morning, folks, this is the Daily Politics. Is Theresa May losing

:00:23.:00:26.

control of Passport Control? The pressure is still firmly on the

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Home Secretary today. Last night the head of the UK Border Force

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quit claiming Mrs May had misled Parliament. He's also mounting a

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claim for constructive dismissal. The Home Secretary is sticking to

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her guns. The Government is facing a tough day in Parliament today

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starting with Prime Minister's Questions. We will have all the

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action live at midday. The party's over. Silvio Berlusconi

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says he will step down. But only after he's pushed through economic

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reforms. What next for Italy and for the eurozone?

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Should you, me, every other taxpayer help political parties

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with their fund-raising? We speak to a Liberal Democrat peer who

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thinks state-funding is a jolly good idea.

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As Presidents Obama and Sarkozy make a public boo-boo, we ask what

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microphone gaffes really teach us about the true state of politics.

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A boo-boo? Yes. Was Yogi Bear there as well?! LAUGHTER It will be an

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action-packed 90 minutes of quality daytime TV here on BBC Two. It is

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worth the licence fee on its own. One licence fee it's worth! With us

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today to share in this feast of news are two of Westminster's

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average-sized beasts. The Universities Minister, David

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Willetts. They used to call him "two brains". Some say he's lost

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one! One of the new members of Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet, Michael

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Dugher. A crazy name, a crazy guy. I don't know what they call him!

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Seeing as we have the Universities Minister here, let's kick-off with

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that. Why don't we? Thousands of students are marching through

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London today to demonstrate against higher university tuition fees.

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They are planning to march to the City of London where a protest has

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also been taking place outside St Paul's Cathedral. Last year,

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student prosests resulted in -- protests resulted in violent

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clashes right here in Westminster. They are authorised to use plastic

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bullets if necessary. Mark Bergman is one of the students protesting.

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He is a member of the NUS National Executive Committee. How confident

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are you that there won't be violence? The threats of the police

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of using rubber bullets of possibly using water cannons should mean

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there should be public outrage amongst parents, the trade union

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movement and amongst everyone who defends civil liberties in this

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country. The threat of violence by the police is totally unacceptable.

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What about violence on the side of the students protesting? Any

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clashes... The students have shown over the last couple of months,

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over the last 12 months, that they ultimately are defending our

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democratic right, they are defending the welfare state and are

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fighting for each and everyone under attack. What about in terms

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of what you are precisely protesting against? Now we have

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heard that one in five universities want to charge less in terms of

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fees and bursaries. You must be pleased about that? Well, 75% of

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all the universities now have agreed to set their fee levels at

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�9,000. What we will see is a privatised university system which

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on the one hand will provide courses such as philosophies and

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humanities for the rich and we are seeing how London Metropolitan

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University, an institution with more black students than the entire

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Russell Group put together being stripped of its assets. What is

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your response to this idea that now universities are reconsidering the

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levels of fees and bursaries that they are going to charge? They are

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probably going to charge less than that �9,000 fee that you have just

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said? The students movement has always made it clear that we

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principally stand on the basis of free education. The free education

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is a principle that whether you are five, whether you are 15, or

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whether you are 50, you should have the right to access higher

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education and the fact that some universities are now turning around

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and saying we will decrease our fees level just means they are

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coming under increasing pressure to oblige to the market. Thank you.

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You happy that the police could open fire on students today?

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want to see peaceful demonstrations. People have a right to demonstrate

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peacefully. The police have operational decisions to take.

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After the events a few months back they will be concerned if there is

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violence from protesters. I hope we can avoid that. Are rubber bullets

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the right way to go about it? That has to be more than an operational

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decision? That must be something the Government must have a say in?

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I have to say what we want to see is peaceful protests...

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understand that. Stkpwhri I'm very happy - the crucial thing is to --

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I'm very happy - the crucial thing is... Education has to be paid for

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by someone. It is going to be paid for by graduates when they are

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earning more than �20,000 a year. I think we have a progressive

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proposal. I would be very happy to carry on arguing that case in any

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democratic forum. I understand that. This is a democratic and open forum.

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You told this programme many moons ago that only a handful of

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universities would charge the �9,000 top fee and that turns out

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not to be the case - 50 of them are charging it? You told us that,

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didn't you? We said that we were expecting universities to reach a

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decision on what their fees should be, if they wanted to go above

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�6,000 they would have to get agreement. We ended up with the

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majority of students will not be facing fees of �9,000. The average

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fee is �8,100. What is the difference from that �9,000 if you

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are a student? For them, the crucial question is what their

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repayments will be. They will be paying 9% of their earnings when

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they are earning more than �20,000. On a Government website on the 9th

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November 2010 it said the following: In exceptional cases

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universities will be able to charge higher contributions, up to �9,000

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limit. 50 universities are not exceptional cases. Wouldn't it be -

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it may be right, it may be wrong. For the sake of plain-speaking and

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the democratic debate, surely you should say, "We got that bit

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wrong"? What we got right was expecting of universities that if

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they want to go above six, they had to agree an access agreement. The

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vast majority will not be facing fees of �9,000. Ed Miliband was

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quite tempted to go out and talk to the protesters last time. Is he

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going to go and dodge a bullet today? All of us want to see a

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peaceful protest from the students today. We understand their real

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concerns. One... Are you on their side? I'm against the fact that

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tuition fees are �9,000. The Government could do more. You could

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reduce the fees to �6,000, by a third, if you didn't give the

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bankers the corporation tax cut this year, also if you charged a

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little bit more interest for those earning over �65,000. There is

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something you could do. The big worry is the fact that applications

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from British students fell by 12% in this autumn and I think it's

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obvious now that contrary to what the Government has said before it

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is deterring people from going to university. These students are

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marching for no fees. Are you on their side for no fees? No, we have

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said there shouldn't be a �9,000... You said there should be �6,000?

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The Government could step in and get that number down. Is that still

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part of Labour policy? Of course. It is? It looked like an aspiration

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last time? We have said that at the party conference. You think �6,000

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would stop the marches? It would go a long way to help. The Government

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said before that there wouldn't be a detrimental impact in terms...

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Regardless of whether the fees are �6,000 or �9,000, it is the

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repayment rate. Your proposal doesn't affect the monthly

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repayments from graduates which will be lower under our proposals.

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Jo? Our two guests probably know you shouldn't say anything you

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might regret when you are in the vague proximity of a microphone.

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Pity no-one told President Sarkozy and Obama who let slip some

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unfortunate comments about the Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin

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Netanyahu. Theirs... The French press got together to agree not to

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make public. I went on two websites. Thank you, the French media. They

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were asked not to put their microphones on because President

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Sarkozy and Obama were going to have a private conversation. Here

:10:10.:10:20.
:10:20.:10:38.

is a reminder of some of the best Blair, what you doing? You leaving?

:10:38.:10:48.
:10:48.:10:50.

Don't speak before I call your name. Pretend... Pretend it was like the

:10:50.:11:00.
:11:00.:11:28.

Everything, she's the sort of It is very funny of course...

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Sorry! LAUGHTER You are on air! does the President sound like

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Schwarzenegger? It is funny. That gaffe is quite serious, isn't it?

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In terms of diplomatic relations, that is a total breach of trust in

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dealing with the Israeli Prime Minister? It can be very serious.

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Serious for the poor so-and-so who works for them that forgot to

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switch off the microphone. worked for Gordon Brown, of course,

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but not at the time of the Gillian Duffy gaffe? I was in Barnsley

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watching it on the telly at the time. Your heart sinking? You could

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argue... Glad that I wasn't there. What did it do to Gordon Brown? It

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had serious consequences for him? It did. I don't think it was the

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fact that it was recorded, it is about what you say and I think that

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was the problem in that instance. It is why Gordon immediately

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apologised and it wasn't our finest hour. Yes. David Willetts, that is

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the point. You can apologise, and it is embarrassing. Doesn't it

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reveal the true nature of politicians in those private

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moments? I don't think so. You get a different angle on politicians.

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Is it the true one? In my experience, when politicians are

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talking privately with the leader from another country, they don't

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spend all their time bad mouthing foreign leaders. I don't think it

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was a typical exchange. Is it then the only time we get to find out

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what politicians are thinking? see a different side of them, don't

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you? Often when you are just finishing an interview, that is the

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point when people start relaxing, the microphones are still on and

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they can be caught out. Everybody has to be allowed some opportunity

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for some kind of private communication, some kind of

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relaxation. We don't want politicians who are so straight-

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laced they are permanently on guard. Is there a chance people might

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think they are only human after all? I think they probably do. Most

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people might make a comment about a colleague, you might say something

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about Andrew that you wouldn't necessarily want broadcasting...

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Never! I don't think that has ever happened! Have you ever been caught

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out? Not yet. There's time. We are working on it. David? I was trying

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to think - I am sure there is some terrible gaffe... You must have

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said privately how dare all these universities go for �9,000 a year?

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Sitting in my office occasionally, who knows, as one delivers these

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exceptional higher education reforms. A thought of frus trace

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might have passed -- frustration might have passed through my mind.

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That is the closest we will get to the truth! Italian ten-year bonds

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have reached 7%. The highest since the euro area was founded in 1999.

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It is a significant benchmark and it puts Italy in real difficulties.

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Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi announced he would resign yesterday

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but only after Parliament passes urgent pwhudge et reforms. He's

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also ind -- budget reforms. He's also indicated he won't stand in

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any future elections. Meanwhile, an EU team is due in Rome today to

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begin monitoring how Italy plans to cut its rising budget debt. I'm

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joined by Bill Emmott, former editor of the The Economist.

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Let's do the politics then go on to the significance of the Italian

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bonds. Mr Berlusconi said he would go but only after the reforms are

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put through. Should we be suspicious he really will go?

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think Silvio Berlusconi is the kind of politician who thinks there's

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always another chance. He has bought a little bit more time, he

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thinks. He can talk to the people who he described yesterday as

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traitors and tried to buy them back again and hope that the bond

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markets reward him for saying that he is going to go, but I think we

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see today, in the markets, they are not rewarding him. They want him to

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go now. It is the message of James Cardle from the Clinton

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administration, who said, when he died he really wanted to be

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reincarnated not as the Pope, but the bond market, because it was all

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powerful. Finally Silvio Berlusconi has met his match, the bond market.

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It's only all powerful because the politicians borrow so much. If they

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didn't borrow, they wouldn't matter to them. We are proceeding on the

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basis that if Mr Berlusconi goes, Italy gets a fresh start. I would

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suggest to you that that is not the case. And the bond markets have

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already got that. They do know that, and the point is, it's like the old

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Irish story, you wouldn't start from here. Ah yes we would!

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only thing that makes me feel slightly sorry for Silvio

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Berlusconi is he is not responsible for the debt as it was built up in

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the seventies and eighties by politicians what are running

:16:58.:17:03.

British-style budget deficits of 10 %, annually, year after year, but

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the point about Silvio Berlusconi is that he has been in power for

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nine years altogether out of the last 70, eight of the last 11 and

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he has done nothing to reduce the debt -- the last 17. He has not

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made any reforms. This businessman who was going to show you how to

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run a country has done nothing except run the country in his own

:17:25.:17:30.

interests. That is why he has to go. There is a great deal of faith in

:17:30.:17:35.

Greece and Italy being put on a technocratic government, talk of

:17:35.:17:42.

the former governor of the Bank of Greece coming back into Greece, and

:17:42.:17:47.

talks of X EU commissioner Monte coming back to the Prime Minister

:17:47.:17:51.

of Italy. I would suggest putting technocrats in it might seem fine

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and they will know what they are doing, but they will have no

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democratic legitimacy to do some very, very painful things. For I

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think that is absolutely right. It's a very short-term solution.

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For Commissioner Monte, or whoever else, it is a hospital pass. You

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are basically being asked to do this because the politicians don't

:18:13.:18:19.

won the unpopularity. That means it is short-term. It can only last six

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or nine months at most, as it did in Italy in 1993 when the Governor

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of the Bank of Italy was brought in as a technical governor and did a

:18:32.:18:34.

lot of reforms in one year, but then the whole thing collapsed.

:18:34.:18:41.

That is going to happen again, I would say. The significant point of

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the 7% benchmark, that means that the debtor is expensive and they

:18:46.:18:49.

have the biggest number of bombs after America and Japan in the

:18:49.:18:55.

world. When Portugal and Greece hit this mark, they had to go for a

:18:55.:19:00.

bail-out. I would suggest there are two problems with this now. 1,

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Italy is much bigger and will need a bigger bail-out, and secondly,

:19:04.:19:10.

whatever Mrs Merkel and Mr Sarkozy say, there is no bail-out fund.

:19:10.:19:14.

There is no bail-out fund of this size, nor that the German, Dutch

:19:14.:19:19.

and French voters will permit to take on liability for the Italian

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debt. The real solutions after the Italian solutions. And the IMF

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buying some time. You can buy time by rolling over the dead. Italy's

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in a better position than Greece or Portugal is that the debt is in a

:19:34.:19:43.

long immaturity. 300 billion of it becomes up for maturity next year.

:19:43.:19:51.

It's only 300 billion! Less have a whip-round. Is it now British

:19:51.:19:57.

government policy that given that there is no bail-out fund and the

:19:57.:20:01.

financial leveraging, we've not seen the light of day of that. Is

:20:01.:20:05.

it government policy that the ECB, the European Central Bank, contrary

:20:05.:20:14.

to what the Germans want, should become the lender of last resort?

:20:14.:20:18.

We want to see more serious progress, which could have -- into

:20:18.:20:21.

the role for the ECB, but greater moves towards fiscal discipline in

:20:21.:20:26.

the euro-zone. Is it Leiba's policy that the ECB should become the

:20:26.:20:31.

lender of last resort -- Labour's policy. That would make it harder

:20:31.:20:37.

to rescue countries like Italy. we want to see institutions like

:20:37.:20:41.

the EC be stepping up to the plate, and Labour as well. This is

:20:41.:20:46.

something that the Eurozone has to face up to. I think what you need

:20:47.:20:49.

is the ECB honouring their responsibility. Should it be the

:20:49.:20:57.

lender of last resort? I'm not asking about that. Is it your

:20:57.:21:02.

polish sheet then it should be the lender of last resort? -- policy.

:21:02.:21:06.

It should be the role of the member states in the EU. This is something

:21:06.:21:10.

that the Germans and friends have to face up to. I am grateful to do

:21:10.:21:14.

that -- or that but it has nothing to do with what I asked you. Do you

:21:15.:21:18.

think the Germans will every agree to this? And it provoked the

:21:18.:21:22.

Germans into changing their mind about their attitude to the ECB?

:21:22.:21:26.

doubt it. I would not bet in favour of it. Germans will not vote for

:21:27.:21:30.

the government that does this, that is the trouble. You never know,

:21:30.:21:37.

Apocalypse Now, and you produce a new political environment, but now

:21:37.:21:40.

they would not vote for it. Bill, thank you for that. We will have to

:21:41.:21:44.

sign you up because they will be a lot of this going on. I think you

:21:44.:21:54.
:21:54.:21:57.

are right. Mr Berlusconi says he's going to retire and when that

:21:57.:22:03.

happens you normally get a fountain pen or a carriage clock or a litre

:22:03.:22:07.

of fine whisky in a critical -- crystal decanter. Edinburgh Crystal,

:22:07.:22:12.

in fact. When you have been the President of Italy, actually the

:22:12.:22:15.

Prime Minister, who writes the scripts? When you have been the

:22:15.:22:21.

prime minister, the President is different from Mr Berlusconi.

:22:21.:22:26.

Napolitano is the President, Berlusconi is the prime minister.

:22:26.:22:32.

The confusing thing is that he is call the President of the council.

:22:32.:22:36.

Maybe they were being clever. would probably either one be

:22:36.:22:42.

showered with fountain pens, carriage clocks and bung a bunker

:22:42.:22:49.

parties. So what would you want as a leaving present? How about a

:22:49.:22:53.

Daily Politics mug? Yes, these little babies would not look out of

:22:53.:23:00.

place at a poolside at one of these parties. So, Silvio, I am sending

:23:00.:23:04.

Joe to Rome to hand deliver one of these. You lucky, lucky man. You be

:23:05.:23:09.

careful with it. I once danger money for that. We will remind you

:23:09.:23:12.

how to enter in a minute, but let's see if you can remember when this

:23:12.:23:22.
:23:22.:23:31.

How do you feel about the loss of the Times this morning? I will miss

:23:31.:23:41.
:23:41.:23:59.

One woman came in and asked for 20 a loads? Were you able to supply

:23:59.:24:09.
:24:09.:24:43.

To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your

:24:44.:24:46.

answer to our special quiz e-mail address - that's [email protected]

:24:46.:24:49.

And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on

:24:50.:24:55.

our website. That's bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics. Now, it's

:24:55.:24:59.

coming up to midday. Let's have a look at Big Ben. That means PMQs is

:24:59.:25:06.

on the way. And Nick Robinson is here. Welcome to our programme,

:25:06.:25:10.

Nick. Now, the row engulfing the Home Secretary is likely to be the

:25:10.:25:13.

main thrust of the exchanges. And it doesn't look like the pressure

:25:13.:25:16.

on the Home Secretary will end there. The Commons will debate a

:25:16.:25:19.

Labour motion later today calling on the Government to publish all

:25:19.:25:22.

the details that ministers gave to the UK Border Agency. Jo, just

:25:22.:25:26.

bring us up to speed on who is saying what. Who's been in charge

:25:26.:25:29.

at passport control? That's the question everybody at Westminster

:25:29.:25:34.

is asking today. The Home Secretary said yesterday that she did

:25:34.:25:37.

authorise a 'pilot' scheme to relax border checks for some passengers

:25:37.:25:40.

arriving in the UK over the summer, but that she had not authorised

:25:40.:25:46.

wider relaxation of controls, which only a minister could do. But she

:25:46.:25:48.

was contradicted by the Border Force chief, Brodie Clark, who

:25:48.:25:52.

dramatically resigned last night. He issued a statement disputing Mrs

:25:52.:25:59.

May's version of events. He said, "The Home Secretary suggests that I

:25:59.:26:01.

added additional measures, improperly, to the trial of our

:26:01.:26:11.
:26:11.:26:11.

risk-based controls: I did not." "The Home Secretary also implies

:26:11.:26:14.

that I relaxed the controls in favour of queue management. I did

:26:14.:26:17.

not". But Brodie Clark's boss, Rob Whiteman says Clark "admitted" to

:26:17.:26:19.

him that he "authorised staff to go further than ministerial

:26:19.:26:22.

instruction". But in his statement Clark also says that the measures

:26:22.:26:25.

have been in place since 2008, which might just get him and the

:26:25.:26:33.

Home Secretary both off the hook. David Willetts, in October of this

:26:33.:26:39.

year, less than a month ago, 11th October, the Prime Minister said

:26:39.:26:43.

"we will reclaim our borders. We will get a grip on immigration in

:26:43.:26:47.

this country. Real limits, proper enforcement, real control over how

:26:47.:26:54.

many people come here and who.". That was that you had already open

:26:54.:26:59.

the borders to EU citizens. decision that ministers took was

:26:59.:27:02.

the piloting a scheme to make a risk assessment of people coming

:27:02.:27:05.

into the country and it was absolutely not opening of borders.

:27:05.:27:10.

That was not any decision that the Home Secretary table. It took was a

:27:10.:27:14.

pilot Why did you include every airport in the country? It was

:27:14.:27:17.

being trial on certain groups of people and the aim was that the

:27:17.:27:22.

people working at the borders agency should be able to exercise

:27:22.:27:26.

some judgment in a very small number of the tests applied.

:27:26.:27:30.

understand that, but if you say to a certain group of people it apply

:27:30.:27:35.

to everyone in what we call the European economic Area, which is

:27:35.:27:39.

all of the 27 countries in the EU, plus Switzerland, Norway and other

:27:39.:27:44.

ones that I forget. It is a pretty the group of people. These people

:27:44.:27:48.

could come in without proper checks, and yet, you're Prime Minister says,

:27:48.:27:53.

even after all that has happened, we will reclaim Al borders. Real

:27:53.:27:59.

control over how many people come here and who. That is absolutely

:27:59.:28:03.

not what was being piloted. What was piloted was the use by border

:28:03.:28:09.

agency officials of some risk assessment by them so that if, for

:28:09.:28:14.

example, a school party was coming through they had some discretion

:28:14.:28:19.

into which tests they applied and most of them were applied in those

:28:19.:28:23.

cases. You were not applying the biometric tests, correct? They

:28:23.:28:30.

could take a specific discretionary choice, the biometric data was one

:28:31.:28:34.

thing and that it is only a second photograph. But that is not opening

:28:34.:28:37.

up the borders, and that is precisely why the Home Secretary

:28:37.:28:44.

was so shocked. She is the one who says she cannot tell us get in

:28:44.:28:47.

illegally this summer. If that is not opening of borders, what is?

:28:47.:28:56.

Not knock. Who's there? Coming. -- come in. We know that the pilot

:28:56.:28:59.

actually increased by 10 % the number of illegal immigrants

:28:59.:29:03.

detected. What a cause she cannot know, and I hope the investigation

:29:03.:29:06.

will discover this, is what happened as a result of this

:29:06.:29:13.

completely unlicensed decision by the guy running the borders.

:29:13.:29:18.

Michael de deux, I'm not sure why you are making such a song and

:29:18.:29:22.

dance. In 2008, under a Labour government, you did not suspend

:29:22.:29:25.

what the Tories suspended, you suspended the warning index checks

:29:25.:29:30.

on the people coming in. You did that, with people who were risk,

:29:30.:29:34.

you suspended cheques. The reason why we are making a song and dance

:29:34.:29:38.

about it is because we thought Theresa May was incredibly

:29:38.:29:40.

complacent and out of touch when she could not tell us how many

:29:40.:29:45.

people came in unchecked because of a decision she took. But you

:29:45.:29:51.

suspended checked -- checks on 100 occasions. We had 1,000 more

:29:51.:29:56.

immigration officers and every single year we tightened up.

:29:56.:29:59.

suspended it over 100 times. introduce the biometrics on every

:29:59.:30:05.

visa, more immigration officers. 2004, local managers at Heathrow

:30:05.:30:09.

decided there would be all open controls and no checks whatsoever

:30:09.:30:14.

made. That was under you. Every year we endeavoured to tighten up

:30:14.:30:18.

the Czechs. The government took a decision to relax the cheques this

:30:19.:30:23.

summer and then took a decision not to check it. You never relaxed any

:30:23.:30:27.

of the checking? I was told by a former immigration minister he

:30:27.:30:37.
:30:37.:30:40.

would meet the scene like this in this case. There will be a lot of

:30:40.:30:44.

ammunition to throw around. truth is, in terms of impression,

:30:44.:30:48.

the government has paid a price. Look at the cartoonists today, they

:30:48.:30:52.

show Osama Bin Laden wandering through passport control and they

:30:52.:30:55.

have paid a price. The question is, is there a fatal fact. So far

:30:56.:30:59.

bought a razor maker there isn't. Here is Prime Minister's Questions

:30:59.:31:08.

He had already proved himself to be a dedicated and courageous soldier.

:31:08.:31:11.

He has made the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the British

:31:11.:31:15.

people and we should send our deepest condolences to his family

:31:15.:31:22.

and friends. This week, we will have lost their lives in defence of

:31:22.:31:26.

our country so we can enjoy peace and freedom. We are humbled by the

:31:26.:31:28.

sacrifice they have made. This morning, I had meetings with

:31:29.:31:32.

ministerial colleagues and others and I shall have further such

:31:32.:31:41.

meetings later today. May I add my tribute to the Prime Minister's

:31:41.:31:45.

about the death of Private Matthew Haseldin of 2nd Battalion The

:31:45.:31:52.

Mercian Regiment. Does he think telling 25 million workers they

:31:52.:31:57.

have no job security will boost or reduce consumer confidence? Clearly,

:31:57.:32:01.

what we have to do is make it easier for firms to hire people.

:32:01.:32:07.

That is why we have scrapped Labour's jobs tax, that is why we

:32:07.:32:10.

have taken a million of the lowest paid people out of tax. That is why

:32:10.:32:14.

we have established new rules so you can only go to a tribunal after

:32:14.:32:18.

working somewhere for two years and that's why we have introduced fees

:32:18.:32:22.

for claims in employment tribunals to stop these claims. We are

:32:22.:32:31.

apprenticeships all as a way of helping to give young people jobs.

:32:31.:32:35.

THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband. Speaker, can I join the Prime

:32:35.:32:40.

Minister in paying tribute to Private Matthew Haseldin from 2nd

:32:40.:32:44.

Battalion The Mercian Regiment? He showed immense courage trying to

:32:44.:32:48.

protect local people and our thoughts are with his family and

:32:48.:32:52.

friends. With troops serving in conflict overseas, it is more

:32:52.:32:55.

important that we honour this weekend in Remembrance Sunday all

:32:56.:33:01.

of those who have served our country and are indeed serving our

:33:01.:33:05.

country today. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister tell us how many

:33:05.:33:09.

people entered the UK under the Home Secretary's relaxed border

:33:09.:33:15.

controls? The figures for the period between August 2010 and

:33:15.:33:18.

August 2011 for the number of people who entered the country are

:33:18.:33:22.

published in the normal way. The figures I do have is that the

:33:22.:33:27.

number of people arrested was up by 10% and the number of drug seizures

:33:27.:33:33.

was markedly up and the number of firearms seizures was up by 100%. I

:33:33.:33:37.

think we should be clear about what did and what did not happen here.

:33:37.:33:41.

First, the Home Secretary did agree a pilot for a more targeted

:33:41.:33:46.

approach to border control, this was for people within the European

:33:46.:33:49.

Economic Area. It allowed better targeting of high-risk people and

:33:49.:33:53.

less for others, notably children. This did not compromise security.

:33:53.:33:57.

This was an operational decision but one I fully back and think that

:33:57.:34:04.

she was right to take. But, second - and this is important - decisions

:34:04.:34:08.

were taken to extend this beyond the European Economic Area

:34:08.:34:12.

nationals, this was not authorised by the Home Secretary. Indeed, when

:34:12.:34:16.

specific permission was asked for, it was not granted. Let me just say,

:34:16.:34:20.

this did not mean our borders were left undefended. Passports

:34:20.:34:25.

continued to be checked. As this was an authorised action, as it was

:34:25.:34:29.

contrary to what the Home Secretary agreed, it is right that the head

:34:29.:34:34.

of the Border Force was suspended. I back that action completely.

:34:35.:34:44.
:34:45.:34:45.

Speaker, it is just not good enough. The Prime Minister can't tell us

:34:46.:34:52.

how many people, how many millions of people were let in under the

:34:52.:34:57.

relaxed border controls agreed by the Home Secretary. Mr Speaker,

:34:57.:35:03.

isn't it totally unacceptable that the Home Secretary chose to relax

:35:03.:35:07.

border controls in July and even yesterday she could not tell us

:35:07.:35:13.

which airports and ports it applied to, how many took it up and for how

:35:13.:35:16.

long. She provided those figures and the figures for the number of

:35:17.:35:25.

arrests are as follows. Firearms, 100 increase in seizures. Illegal

:35:25.:35:29.

immigrants 10% increase in arrest. Forged documents, 48% increase. The

:35:29.:35:31.

simple fact that the right honourable gentleman has to accept

:35:31.:35:37.

- and everyone has to accept - is this: Is the head of the UK Border

:35:37.:35:41.

Agency, Rob Whiteman, who also didn't know that this unauthorised

:35:41.:35:49.

action was taking place, he said this - it is very important for the

:35:49.:35:55.

House to understand: Brodie Clark admitted to me on 2nd November that

:35:55.:36:00.

on a number of occasions this year he authorised his staff to go

:36:00.:36:04.

further than ministerial action. I therefore suspended him from his

:36:04.:36:08.

duties. In my opinion it was right for officials to have recommended

:36:08.:36:13.

the pilot so we focus attention on higher risk to our border. It is

:36:13.:36:17.

unacceptable that one of my senior officials went further than was

:36:17.:36:20.

approved. That is why he was suspended. That is why the Home

:36:20.:36:25.

Secretary backed that decision. It is an important issue to understand

:36:25.:36:29.

that Brodie Clark was suspended by the head of the UK Border Agency.

:36:29.:36:33.

It was a decision quite rightly taken by him, backed by the Home

:36:33.:36:40.

Secretary, backed by me. Isn't it utterly typical, Mr Speaker, when

:36:40.:36:49.

things go wrong, it is nothing to do with them?

:36:49.:36:54.

THE SPEAKER: Order. Let me emphasise there are members on both

:36:54.:37:01.

sides of the House shouting their heads off. Members of Youth

:37:01.:37:06.

Parliament last Friday... Order! Order! Who spoke brilliantly and

:37:06.:37:10.

passionately disagreed with each other but they didn't shout at each

:37:10.:37:16.

other. Mr Ed Miliband? Mr Speaker, what did the Home Secretary say in

:37:16.:37:20.

the past when she was in opposition when things went wrong on

:37:20.:37:24.

immigration? She said, "I'm sick and tired of Government Ministers

:37:24.:37:31.

who simply blame other people when things go wrong." Now the Prime

:37:31.:37:34.

Minister said yesterday in his evidence to the Liaison Committee

:37:34.:37:39.

about the relaxation of border controls in the last few months,

:37:39.:37:45.

"Clearly, it's not acceptable and it's not acceptable it went on for

:37:45.:37:49.

so long." Mr Speaker, why did the Home Secretary allow it to happen?

:37:49.:37:54.

On the one hand, he is trying to blame me for not taking

:37:54.:37:59.

responsibility and quote my words "taking responsibility" and saying

:37:59.:38:03.

what isn't acceptable. I have to say having a lecture in

:38:03.:38:08.

responsibility from a party that trebled immigration, that let an

:38:08.:38:15.

extra 2.2 million people into our country, that allowed everyone from

:38:15.:38:19.

Eastern Europe to come here with no transitional controls, that built

:38:19.:38:25.

up a backlog of 500,000 asylum claims and no apology about it.

:38:25.:38:28.

Even today, when the Leader of the Opposition is asked whether too

:38:28.:38:34.

many people were let into our country, his answer was very simple

:38:34.:38:39.

- no. Mr Speaker, he's been the Prime Minister for 18 months. He

:38:39.:38:44.

can't keep saying, "It's nothing to do with me." It is his

:38:44.:38:48.

responsibility. A month ago, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister gave a

:38:48.:38:53.

speech on boarder controls called Reclaiming Our Borders. Mr Speaker,

:38:53.:38:57.

while he was boasting about reclaiming our borders, his Home

:38:57.:39:01.

Secretary was relaxing our borders. Doesn't the Prime Minister think he

:39:01.:39:06.

should at least have known? pilot that the Home Secretary

:39:06.:39:11.

introduced meant more arrests, more firearms seized, more forged

:39:11.:39:16.

documents found. That is the truth of it. The fact is that officials

:39:16.:39:19.

went further than Home Office Ministers authorised, that is what

:39:19.:39:23.

is wrong, that is why someone had to be suspended. That was the right

:39:23.:39:31.

decision. He asks what we have done. Let me tell him. We are completing

:39:31.:39:37.

e-borders so every flight will be checked from next April. We got the

:39:37.:39:41.

first six months of this year, we seized more drugs than in the whole

:39:41.:39:46.

of last year. Last year, we rejected 400,000 applications for

:39:46.:39:52.

visas. We turned away 68,000 people without the correct documents. I'm

:39:52.:39:56.

determined we have tough border controls and finally we have a Home

:39:56.:40:02.

Office and an Immigration Minister that want to cut immigration.

:40:02.:40:04.

Speaker, anyone listening to the Prime Minister would think his

:40:04.:40:09.

policy has been a great success. It is a fiasco! It is a complete

:40:09.:40:13.

fiasco! Now the one thing he can't claim to know anything about is

:40:13.:40:20.

cuts to the UK Border Force. Can he confirm how many UK Border staff

:40:20.:40:23.

are going to be cut under his Government? By the end of this

:40:23.:40:28.

Parliament, there will be 18,000 people working for the UK Border

:40:28.:40:32.

Agency which is the same number as were working for the UK Border

:40:32.:40:37.

Agency in 2006 when he was sitting in the Treasury and determining the

:40:37.:40:44.

budgets. He asks about what we have done in 18 months in office on

:40:44.:40:50.

immigration. Let me tell him. The first-ever limit on work visas from

:40:50.:40:54.

outside the European Union. We have stopped more than 470 colleges from

:40:54.:40:59.

bringing in bogus foreign students. We have cut student visas by 70,000.

:40:59.:41:05.

Anyone who comes here to get married has to speak English. We

:41:05.:41:08.

are ending automatic settlement rights and stopping the nonsense of

:41:08.:41:11.

people misusing the Human Rights Act. In 18 months we have done more

:41:12.:41:18.

to control immigration than he did in 13 years. Mr Speaker, the truth

:41:18.:41:25.

is it's a fiasco and he knows it. That is the reality. It is a... Mr

:41:25.:41:31.

Speaker, it is a pattern with this Government. Broken promises. Gross

:41:31.:41:36.

incompetence. Blame everybody else. He's an out of touch Prime Minister

:41:36.:41:42.

leading a shambolic Government. ever, he completely lost his way!

:41:42.:41:50.

LAUGHTER I think he should spend a little more time listening to the

:41:50.:41:57.

author of Blue Labour. He said this: "Labour lied about the extent

:41:58.:42:07.
:42:08.:42:11.

of immigration." Where's the apology? Thank you, Mr Speaker. On

:42:11.:42:16.

Friday 3 Commando Brigade will be marching through the streets of

:42:16.:42:19.

Plymouth on their homecoming parade. I know the Prime Minister will be

:42:19.:42:23.

with us in spirit. Would he today like to send a message of support

:42:23.:42:26.

to these brave and very professional Royal Marines of whom

:42:26.:42:30.

we are all so very proud? I will certainly join my honourable friend

:42:30.:42:33.

in doing that. I know that the whole of the South West and the

:42:33.:42:38.

whole country is incredibly proud of the Marines and we are proud of

:42:38.:42:43.

3 Commando Brigade who will be marching through Plymouth. I send

:42:43.:42:46.

my very best wishes for the homecoming parade. We should put on

:42:46.:42:50.

record what they have achieved in Task Force Helmand. They carried

:42:50.:42:57.

out 37,000 patrols. They found over 400 IEDs. They have made a real

:42:58.:43:01.

difference to the safety and security of that country and the

:43:01.:43:08.

safety of our country, too. Does the Prime Minister think it is

:43:08.:43:12.

right and proper and defensible that the Royal Bank of Scotland

:43:12.:43:15.

which received massive bail-out during the crisis should be paying

:43:16.:43:20.

over �500 million out in bonuses this year? No, I don't think it is

:43:20.:43:25.

acceptable. It hasn't yet set its figures for bonus payments. The

:43:25.:43:29.

British Government is a seriously large shareholder in RBS and we

:43:29.:43:34.

will be making our views known. joining me in giving our

:43:34.:43:41.

condolences to the relatives of the Red Arrows pilot killed at RAF

:43:41.:43:45.

Scampton yesterday, will the Prime Minister acknowledge the overriding

:43:45.:43:50.

need for safety and that our campaign to save RAF Scampton from

:43:50.:43:56.

closure is not just based on sentiment for the historic home of

:43:56.:43:59.

the Dambusters but on the overriding need for the safe

:43:59.:44:05.

uncluttered skies above North Lincoln shirp which the Red --

:44:05.:44:10.

Lincolnshire which the Red Arrows need to practice safely? It comes

:44:10.:44:15.

on top of a second accident that happened in the Red Arrows. This

:44:15.:44:19.

has been a very tragic time for something that the whole country

:44:19.:44:22.

loves and I know the home to them in Lincolnshire is extremely

:44:22.:44:25.

important. We must get to the bottom of what happened. I

:44:25.:44:30.

understand why he wants to stand up for the airbase in his constituency.

:44:30.:44:36.

Thank you. The trade unions yesterday published data showing my

:44:36.:44:40.

constituency has seen the largest growth in youth unemployment in

:44:40.:44:43.

this country. Given we won't have the opportunity to question the

:44:43.:44:46.

Prime Minister on unemployment numbers next week, why is he

:44:46.:44:51.

letting young people down in my constituency? We face a difficult

:44:51.:44:53.

situation with unemployment including amongst young people,

:44:53.:44:56.

right across the country and we need to do everything we can to

:44:56.:45:00.

help people back into work. That is why there is record investment

:45:00.:45:03.

going into apprenticeships, record investment going into the work

:45:03.:45:08.

programme. The real need is to grow the private sector. It is a time

:45:08.:45:11.

that whoever was in Government would be having to make reductions

:45:11.:45:15.

in the public sector. He shakes his head. Any Government - look across

:45:15.:45:19.

Europe at the reductions. We need to get the private sector growing.

:45:19.:45:28.

That is what this Government is Developing considerable potential

:45:28.:45:33.

for jobs in the energy sector is crucial for economic recovery in my

:45:33.:45:36.

constituency as is providing skills to take on the jobs. Will the Prime

:45:36.:45:40.

Minister ensure the government does all it can to fund the completion

:45:40.:45:44.

of the new high-school in Lowestoft that will play such an important

:45:44.:45:48.

role in giving young people the skills in a deprived area?

:45:48.:45:51.

Honourable Friend makes an important point about this local

:45:51.:45:56.

school and the skills it will bring. This year, Suffolk has an extra �33

:45:56.:46:00.

million in capital funds and it is for the local authority to decide

:46:00.:46:03.

how to spend money, but I would make the point that school capital

:46:03.:46:08.

available throughout this Parliament amounts to �15.9 billion,

:46:08.:46:16.

so money is therefore important This weekend the nation will pause

:46:17.:46:23.

to remember paying tribute to hour war dead. At Cenotaph across the

:46:23.:46:27.

nation we will pay homage to men and women who have paid the Supreme

:46:27.:46:29.

sacrifice in conflict down the years. Would the Prime Minister

:46:30.:46:36.

agree that whether it is in shops, schools, churches or on football

:46:36.:46:41.

shirts, where there is a desire to display the tribute in a non-

:46:41.:46:46.

partisan way it should not just be allowed, but positively promoted?

:46:46.:46:49.

completely agree with the Honourable Gentleman and sense the

:46:49.:46:53.

entire house does as well. I think it's a remarkable achievement of

:46:53.:46:57.

the Royal British Legion and the country as a hole that over the

:46:57.:47:02.

past years we have reintroduced the sense of the silence taking place

:47:02.:47:06.

on the 11th hour of the 11th day. I think it is absolutely right and

:47:06.:47:09.

appropriate in Northern Ireland where so many people have served so

:47:09.:47:13.

bravely in our armed forces and from both sides of the border.

:47:13.:47:17.

Whenever I visit the Royal Irish Regiment you are struck by how many

:47:17.:47:20.

people from both sides of the borders have served in the armed

:47:20.:47:24.

forces. Less family breakdown would reduce

:47:24.:47:29.

the costs loaded onto Allah economy, so will the Prime Minister

:47:29.:47:34.

encourage health authorities across the whole country to take part in

:47:34.:47:39.

care for the pilot schemes where volunteer parents offer support to

:47:39.:47:42.

new parents in the early years of their family life which is when

:47:42.:47:48.

half of all break-ups occur. honourable friend has a great

:47:48.:47:51.

record in pushing forward this vital idea. It is a tragic fact

:47:52.:47:55.

that so many couples break-up after the arrival of the first child

:47:55.:47:59.

because of the stresses and strains it brings. It is dreadful for the

:47:59.:48:02.

couple's and dreadful for the children. We spend a huge amount in

:48:02.:48:06.

the country of dealing with social breakdown and in my view we should

:48:06.:48:10.

spend more to help keep families together and relationship advice

:48:10.:48:20.
:48:20.:48:21.

and support, as my Honourable On Friday, the UN Security Council

:48:21.:48:25.

will consider the democratically conveyed Palestinian request for

:48:25.:48:31.

full membership of the United Nations. Might the international

:48:31.:48:35.

community not do more to advance the prospect of a to state solution

:48:35.:48:39.

by doing more to create a to state processed and in that context,

:48:39.:48:42.

would he insure that the UK representative casts a positive

:48:42.:48:48.

vote on Friday and doesn't go for abstention? My Right Honourable

:48:48.:48:50.

Friend the Foreign Secretary will make a full statement to the House

:48:50.:48:53.

about this issue and a few moments. Let me say this. The British

:48:54.:48:57.

government is fully behind the two state solution but I profoundly

:48:57.:49:03.

believe that the way you get a to state solution is not through

:49:03.:49:08.

declarations at the UN, the way you get it is through the two potential

:49:08.:49:11.

States, Israel and Palestine, sitting down and negotiating. All

:49:11.:49:17.

of our efforts should be put towards making that happen.

:49:17.:49:26.

(WHITE)THE SPEAKER: (BLUE)(CAPNEXT). The winter fuel payment provides

:49:26.:49:31.

valuable help with paying their bills. Individuals are free to

:49:31.:49:34.

donate their payment to charity if they wish, but it must be a

:49:34.:49:38.

decision for them. I thanked the Prime Minister for the question

:49:38.:49:43.

answer and I'd like to congratulate Peter Whyman for coming up with an

:49:43.:49:49.

idea where people can donate their winter fuel allowance where they do

:49:49.:49:53.

not need it. Would the government try and include an option on the

:49:53.:49:55.

letter sent to all of the over sixties about the winter fuel

:49:56.:49:59.

allowance to allow the donation to be donated automatically to the

:49:59.:50:04.

appeal? I will look at the suggestion she makes, but it is

:50:04.:50:11.

very important that we keep the promises about keeping up winter

:50:11.:50:15.

fuel and cold weather payments. I would not want to see any pressure

:50:15.:50:18.

unnecessarily put on people to do something that might not be in

:50:19.:50:25.

their own best interests. The operational instruction from

:50:25.:50:35.
:50:35.:50:36.

the UK Border Agency on 28th July says we might see checking under 18

:50:36.:50:38.

year-olds against the warnings in this. Did anyone in the Home Office

:50:38.:50:44.

clear that document, and given the conflicting stories between the

:50:44.:50:48.

Home Secretary officials and her own version, will he publish all

:50:48.:50:55.

the ministerial instructions to the UK order agency? He is trying

:50:55.:50:59.

desperately to make up the ground lost by his leader, but he rather

:50:59.:51:04.

lost the house in the process. The point I would make to him is that

:51:04.:51:12.

there is going to be an inquiry carried out by the Chief Inspector

:51:12.:51:15.

of the ordinary, so the chief inspector who found out what was

:51:15.:51:18.

going wrong in terms of undertaking the didn't have the permission of

:51:18.:51:28.
:51:28.:51:31.

ministers and all of these issues On Christmas Day 1914, British and

:51:31.:51:35.

German troops put down their weapons and played a football match

:51:35.:51:38.

in no-man's-land. The following day the bloody hostilities resumed and

:51:38.:51:44.

we today where the poppy in remembrance of our war dead. Will

:51:44.:51:47.

the Prime Minister join me in condemning the outrageous decision

:51:47.:51:50.

by Fifa or to refuse the home nations their request to wear a

:51:50.:51:55.

poppy on their shirts this weekend as a simple mark of respect and

:51:55.:52:01.

I think the Honourable Lady Nott speaks just the the whole house,

:52:01.:52:05.

but a whole country, by being completely baffled and frankly

:52:05.:52:09.

angry by the decision made by Fifa. If teams want to be able to put the

:52:09.:52:13.

poppy on their shirt, as many teams do in our Football League, they

:52:13.:52:16.

should be able to and national level whether it is the English

:52:16.:52:19.

team or the Welsh team. I think this is an appalling decision and I

:52:19.:52:25.

hope they will reconsider it. As poverty is rising, the Prime

:52:25.:52:28.

Minister is removing the requirement for people to register

:52:28.:52:32.

to vote in Britain, thereby removing millions of people's right

:52:32.:52:36.

to vote. Is seen there for not taking their money with one hand

:52:36.:52:41.

and taking their votes with another -- is the there for not taking

:52:41.:52:44.

their money with one hand and taking votes with another and it is

:52:44.:52:50.

a grotesque distortion of democracy to remove the voting power of the

:52:50.:53:00.
:53:00.:53:00.

most vulnerable? The point I would make is that we are introducing

:53:00.:53:06.

individuals and I can understand why he does not support the idea of

:53:06.:53:10.

making constituencies the same size, because his constituency only has

:53:10.:53:16.

62,000 people in, where his Right Honourable Friend the Member for

:53:16.:53:21.

East Ham represents 91,000 people. I do think it is a basic act of

:53:21.:53:25.

fairness to have seats the same size. It was a demand of the

:53:26.:53:32.

Chartists in the 1840s and I think it's time we introduced it.

:53:32.:53:39.

Is the Prime Minister aware that there is growing evidence increased

:53:39.:53:44.

abuse, intimidation and harassment on Park home sites across the

:53:44.:53:46.

country and tackling needs these problem needs political will and

:53:46.:53:51.

not a large sum of money. Will the Prime Minister give urgency to

:53:51.:53:58.

addressing these issues so that vulnerable parts homeowners need

:53:58.:54:01.

the protection that -- get the protection they need as soon as

:54:01.:54:05.

possible? I have constituency cases myself where people have been

:54:05.:54:09.

treated very badly by Park home owners. There are some extremely

:54:09.:54:14.

good Park home owners to obey the rules and demonstrate

:54:14.:54:17.

responsibility and compassion but there are friendly some who don't.

:54:17.:54:20.

We are committed to providing a better deal to residents by

:54:20.:54:23.

improving their rights and increasing protection from bad site

:54:23.:54:26.

owners and double arrange for her to have a meeting with the housing

:54:26.:54:30.

minister so they can discuss this urgent action -- I will arrange for

:54:30.:54:35.

her. In these difficult economic times it is more important that our

:54:35.:54:38.

politics are in touch with the people we represent. Would the

:54:38.:54:43.

Prime Minister therefore welcome the first successful people on a

:54:43.:54:45.

parliamentary Speakers placement scheme you are inspiring

:54:45.:54:48.

individuals who would never normally get the chance to work in

:54:48.:54:51.

politics. Would he agree to meet with them and listen to their views

:54:51.:54:56.

on the relevance of the issues today and Perhaps how all of us our

:54:56.:55:00.

doing in our politics? I joined the Right Honourable Lady in the point

:55:00.:55:04.

she makes. She has made a huge impact on the impact of social

:55:05.:55:07.

mobility and trying to help people who have not had good chances in

:55:07.:55:12.

life and I applaud her. If there is time in my busy diary I will do as

:55:12.:55:16.

she says. I do think there is an important opportunity for everyone

:55:16.:55:19.

in the house to look at organisations like the social

:55:20.:55:23.

mobility foundation that provide opportunities for internships from

:55:24.:55:27.

inner-city schools to have the experience of working in Palmer. I

:55:27.:55:30.

have used the scheme as other members of the Cabinet have, and I

:55:30.:55:33.

think it is an excellent scheme to give people a good chance to see

:55:33.:55:37.

what we do in this place, not just on Wednesday at 12 o'clock, but

:55:37.:55:46.

Does my right honourable friend think it is right for Honourable

:55:46.:55:50.

Members to take instruction from the GMB about how to vote on

:55:50.:56:00.
:56:00.:56:00.

amendments? I do think the Honourable Lady raises a serious

:56:00.:56:04.

issue and I can sense a bitter resistance! That is perhaps not rip

:56:04.:56:08.

-- surprising when 85 % of their money comes from the trade unions,

:56:08.:56:12.

but the fact is when we discuss legislation in the house it should

:56:12.:56:17.

be ringing our judgment an hour and ideas and not just picking up a

:56:17.:56:26.

tired old free from a trade union - - Our Ideas. -- a tired old brief.

:56:26.:56:31.

In my constituency there are over 3,000 people claiming jobseeker's

:56:31.:56:34.

allowance for the latest figures show that there were only 300 job

:56:34.:56:38.

vacancies available. Jobs are being lost in the public sector and the

:56:38.:56:42.

private sector. How high does unemployment have to go before the

:56:42.:56:46.

Prime Minister will accept that his economic policies simply aren't

:56:46.:56:51.

working? Unemployment is too high today. I want to see it come down

:56:51.:56:55.

from its already high levels. What we have to do in order to make that

:56:55.:56:59.

happen is put resources into the apprentice scheme and put it into

:56:59.:57:03.

the work programme, to make sure we do all the things that help

:57:03.:57:07.

businesses employ people. That is what this government is doing. We

:57:07.:57:11.

are cutting corporation tax and introducing enterprise zones and

:57:11.:57:15.

doing everything we can to help businesses and we will do that in

:57:15.:57:20.

her constituency and through the country.

:57:20.:57:25.

Italian bond yields have jumped by more than a percentage point to an

:57:25.:57:29.

unsustainable 8.1 %. Could the Prime Minister tell us what euro-

:57:29.:57:35.

zone leaders must do to stop the contagion? I do think my Honourable

:57:35.:57:37.

Friend makes important point. If you don't have credibility about

:57:37.:57:46.

your plans to deal with your DEC's, and they will not lend you any

:57:46.:57:50.

money. That is what we are seeing in countries like Greece and Italy

:57:50.:57:53.

where the price of borrowing money is getting to a totally

:57:53.:57:57.

unsustainable level. It is a lesson for us to have sustainable plans to

:57:57.:58:05.

get on top of Our debts. In terms of Europe, as we look in Europe,

:58:05.:58:09.

and with his -- decide on a decisive right down about the debt,

:58:09.:58:13.

people look at other countries and Unita have in place the biggest

:58:13.:58:19.

possible firewall. -- you need to have in place. Euro-zone leaders

:58:19.:58:23.

urgently need to put flesh on the bones and figures on the size of

:58:23.:58:31.

the firewall. Last year youth unemployment at Tameside stood at

:58:31.:58:37.

an unacceptable 25 per smack - 20 %, one in five, and now stands at 34 %

:58:37.:58:41.

which is frankly shocking. In light of this, does he still believe that

:58:41.:58:46.

the decision to scrap the future jobs fund was the right one? Let me

:58:46.:58:52.

make the point that under Labour youth unemployment went up by 40 %.

:58:52.:58:57.

On the issue of the future jobs fund, the evidence we received on

:58:57.:59:01.

coming into government was that the future jobs fund was three or four

:59:01.:59:07.

times more expensive than other job creation schemes and in many parts

:59:07.:59:12.

of the country including in the West Midlands the percentage of

:59:12.:59:17.

jobs in the private sector was as low as two or 3%. It was right to

:59:17.:59:21.

scrap the future jobs fund and put in its place apprenticeships, the

:59:21.:59:24.

work programme and work experience which will make a difference to

:59:24.:59:32.

young people. Mr Speaker, war is a failure of

:59:32.:59:37.

politics. The people who go to war are not politicians, they are brave

:59:37.:59:40.

service people who die in the service of the country. Could I

:59:40.:59:44.

urge my Right Honourable friend to write to fever to point out that

:59:45.:59:50.

the poppy is not a political symbol -- FIFA, it is a symbol that says

:59:50.:59:52.

we respect the sacrifice that people have made on behalf of their

:59:52.:59:57.

countries. I will certainly do as my Honourable friend says. It is

:59:57.:00:01.

not just an issue of writing to FIFA, it is asking them and she

:00:01.:00:05.

bodies, including the FA, to take a very strong line about this. As he

:00:05.:00:11.

says, this is not of left or right, Labour or Conservative, we all wear

:00:11.:00:15.

a poppy with pride. We all do it, even if we don't approve of the

:00:15.:00:19.

wars people were fighting in. We do it to one of the fact that these

:00:19.:00:24.

people sacrifice their lives for us. It is absolutely vital for FIFA to

:00:24.:00:27.

understand it and a clear message going out of the house can make

:00:27.:00:34.

them think again. Building on the last answer that

:00:34.:00:38.

the Prime Minister gave, given the fact that Italy is now on an

:00:38.:00:41.

incredible fiscal path, in the words of the Prime Minister, will

:00:41.:00:49.

he assist the G20 finance ministers to meet and help create the

:00:49.:00:53.

European financial stability package in such a way that helps

:00:53.:00:57.

the Eurozone? The Honourable Gentleman makes an important point,

:00:57.:01:00.

but the first responsibility for building is bail-out fund has got

:01:00.:01:05.

to be with the euro-zone members. The problem with the G20 is, as we

:01:05.:01:11.

discussed in the House, you cannot ask the g 20 and the IMF to do

:01:11.:01:15.

things that the Eurozone members are not prepared to do. We do stand

:01:15.:01:18.

ready to boost the IMF and we do want to help countries in distress.

:01:18.:01:23.

We do not want to see our trading partners collapse. We understand

:01:23.:01:26.

that even though we don't support membership of the euro, country's

:01:26.:01:31.

falling out of the euro could be very painful for our economy. It is

:01:31.:01:36.

their currency Doak and they have to sort out the problems. -- it is

:01:36.:01:42.

their currency though. In reply to my Honourable Friend to

:01:42.:01:46.

the member for Orpington referred to a firewall in these bail-out.

:01:46.:01:49.

Would he accept that what we need is structural renegotiation of the

:01:49.:01:52.

treaty's given the impact it is having on the United Kingdom and to

:01:52.:01:56.

use a cricketing analogy, which she will be aware of, he would not be

:01:56.:02:01.

sent in with a broken bat, he would be sent in with a new bat and the

:02:01.:02:11.
:02:11.:02:14.

There is a long history in my party of cricketing metaphors and Europe

:02:14.:02:18.

ending and happily, so I don't think I will necessarily follow

:02:18.:02:26.

down the park. -- ending unhappily. But we will defend our country and

:02:26.:02:30.

we got something back in the treaty, which was to get back out of the

:02:30.:02:33.

bail-out fund. If there a future treaty changes and some European

:02:33.:02:36.

countries are pushing for them, we will make sure we will do a good

:02:36.:02:45.

deal for Britain and protect the Prime Minister's Questions comes to

:02:45.:02:50.

an end. It was not that difficult that the frontbench exchanges were

:02:50.:02:56.

dominated by this row over Theresa May and what she did and didn't

:02:57.:03:00.

order about border control in the pilot programme. A general sense

:03:00.:03:04.

that I'm getting from the tweets - we will hear from Jo in a minute -

:03:04.:03:09.

Ed Miliband didn't quite score the goal that he hoped to do. This

:03:09.:03:12.

business of the England team not being allowed to wear poppies

:03:12.:03:17.

during the match against Spain this weekend came up several times. I am

:03:17.:03:20.

sure some of the questions were planted so the Prime Minister could

:03:20.:03:25.

make a robust statement about it. That last question there from Bill

:03:25.:03:29.

Cash was on the eurozone situation, given the enormity of what has been

:03:29.:03:33.

happening in Greece and in Italy, and how the eurozone is still the

:03:33.:03:38.

biggest threat to whether Britain goes into recession or not, it was

:03:38.:03:42.

interesting that it did barely merit a mention. You sometimes

:03:42.:03:47.

wonder if Parliament is tuned in to the big issues of PMQs. Yes, it is

:03:47.:03:53.

about what gets MPs going. You are right, the performance of Ed

:03:53.:03:56.

Miliband was the subject of the vast majority of the e-mails. Lots

:03:56.:04:00.

of people felt it was the wrong subject for him to go on. "A clear

:04:00.:04:04.

win for David Cameron today. Labour can never win on immigration just

:04:04.:04:12.

as the Tories can never win on the NHS." This one: "Ed Miliband is

:04:12.:04:16.

failing to consolidate the gains he made over the summer. Terrible

:04:16.:04:23.

performance." This from Don Smith, "Ed Miliband was asking questions

:04:23.:04:29.

that were answered yesterday by the Home Secretary." Alan Webb, "Ed

:04:29.:04:33.

Miliband sank without trace today. He should have left the issue of

:04:33.:04:38.

border controls well alone after the mess his own party made of it.

:04:38.:04:45.

He should choose his questions more carefully." There were some in

:04:45.:04:49.

favour. This from Ian, "Ed Miliband has outperformed the Prime Minister

:04:49.:04:55.

again this week. He did very well to focus on the detail of the

:04:55.:05:00.

borders issue." Ian, "Ed had an open goal today and he scored.

:05:00.:05:05.

David struggled." Nick Robinson, where are we now on this? I have

:05:05.:05:09.

changed my mind almost every day. I began by thinking Theresa May was

:05:09.:05:13.

safe on this. By the beginning of the week, I thought it looked a bit

:05:13.:05:19.

dodgy for her. Given the statement from the Chief Executive of the

:05:19.:05:22.

Border Agency that Brodie Clark did say to him I'm going much further

:05:22.:05:26.

than the Minister told me, it would seem that could be her get out of

:05:26.:05:30.

jail card? That's right. If these sorts of stories become a he says

:05:30.:05:33.

she says in which you struggle to remember the names and the job

:05:33.:05:39.

titles and quite what it was, it is easier for a Minister. But if

:05:39.:05:43.

Brodie Clark goes before MPs next week, on Tuesday, and produces a

:05:43.:05:48.

piece of evidence that says that, "I can prove that the Home

:05:48.:05:52.

Secretary told me to do this" then she would be in real difficulty.

:05:52.:05:57.

That would be a game changer? is no indication in his statement,

:05:57.:06:00.

the head of the union that represents him was on Newsnight, he

:06:00.:06:04.

didn't suggest there was such evidence. So my instinct is it's

:06:04.:06:07.

awkward for the Home Secretary. It's not been comfortable for her.

:06:07.:06:12.

It will fuel anxiety about immigration that was anyway coming

:06:12.:06:17.

up through the largely Tory supporting newspapers and because

:06:17.:06:20.

there's another of these petitions that will put another motion on the

:06:20.:06:26.

order paip probably of the House of Commons about a new limit -- Order

:06:26.:06:30.

Paper probably of the House of Commons about a new limit. In part,

:06:30.:06:35.

Ed Miliband didn't go for the detail. It was striking when Chris

:06:35.:06:41.

Lesley stood up and said, "Will you publish some papers?" The Prime

:06:41.:06:45.

Minister hasn't got an answer as to why he won't publish papers, other

:06:45.:06:49.

than say wait for an inquiry which we know won't report until January.

:06:49.:06:59.

It seems to me that would have been much more fruitful for the Leader

:06:59.:07:01.

of the Opposition. He was allowing the Prime Minister to go through

:07:01.:07:06.

the detail. The detail doesn't convict the Government yet. An open

:07:06.:07:12.

goal but he stuck the ball over the bar? I don't accept that. Today

:07:13.:07:17.

with very lengthy answers he justified entirely the actions that

:07:17.:07:20.

were taken and praised the virtues of the process. Most people

:07:20.:07:23.

watching who think that the Government's first responsibility

:07:23.:07:27.

is to maintain its borders will think that is out of touch.

:07:27.:07:30.

didn't say the pilot was unacceptable. He said the Border

:07:30.:07:35.

Agency going much further than the pilot was unacceptable? The pilot

:07:35.:07:39.

that covered all these ports, airports, every single person in

:07:39.:07:42.

the European Economic Area, means the Home Secretary has no idea how

:07:42.:07:46.

many people came in unchecked over that period and didn't bother to

:07:46.:07:49.

find out. That was acceptable? I don't think so. I think people are

:07:49.:07:54.

very worried about this. I thought Ed Miliband spoke to those worries.

:07:54.:08:00.

The Prime Minister wasn't regarding the pilot as unacceptable, he was

:08:00.:08:05.

regarding what Brodie Clark is claimed to have done as

:08:05.:08:09.

unacceptable. He may be right, he may be wrong, but I don't see the

:08:09.:08:12.

inconsistency between yesterday and today? Well, I think the public

:08:12.:08:16.

will see his words yesterday where he said what had happened was

:08:16.:08:20.

unacceptable. If he is saying today that it was only the extensions to

:08:20.:08:23.

the pilot that were unacceptable, or is he saying the fact that you

:08:23.:08:28.

have, we have no idea how many people entered the country without

:08:28.:08:33.

proper checks from a huge area like the European Economic Area over a

:08:33.:08:36.

large timescale? If he is saying that is acceptable, he is more out

:08:36.:08:40.

of touch than we thought. It may or may not be acceptable. What

:08:40.:08:44.

wouldn't be acceptable to this Government since it was obviously

:08:44.:08:47.

acceptable to the last Government because you did the same? Year on

:08:47.:08:51.

year, we tightened up security checks... There were times when you

:08:51.:08:54.

opened our borders, that is accepted? We are talking about the

:08:54.:09:00.

checks at borders. We tightened up... No, no. We introduced the

:09:00.:09:03.

technology... There were periods when you opened our borders in a

:09:03.:09:07.

similar way to this pilot? What do you mean? There were times when you

:09:07.:09:12.

said you don't need to do this, the normal checks you have to do. There

:09:12.:09:15.

were times at Heathrow Airport when you said don't look at those who

:09:15.:09:19.

are on a possible wanted list. So it's happened before under both

:09:20.:09:24.

governments? What we are saying is... But do you accept that?

:09:24.:09:28.

What I accept is that all governments - and there was a

:09:28.:09:31.

consensus on this - all governments, Labour and Conservative, wanted to

:09:31.:09:36.

maintain and increase and tighten border controls. That doesn't

:09:36.:09:42.

seem... That seems to have happened. The borders are not that tight.

:09:42.:09:46.

They seem to be for reasons of expediency that you didn't want a

:09:46.:09:51.

lot of people queuing to get into the country. Last summer, some

:09:51.:09:55.

people were having to wait three hours at Heathrow to get in? What

:09:55.:10:00.

we were doing on the pilot was getting proper judgment and risk

:10:00.:10:03.

assessment by individual Border Agency officials. That is why it is

:10:03.:10:06.

so important what the Prime Minister said, it increased the

:10:06.:10:09.

number of illegal immigrants that were detected. It was telling the

:10:09.:10:12.

staff you have to exercise some discretion, but it was not on the

:10:13.:10:17.

scale that appears to have happened. Labour are making heavy weather of

:10:17.:10:22.

it. There was a pilot. We believe... It was agreed by Home Office

:10:22.:10:26.

Ministers? The pilot. You didn't know about it? It was a legitimate

:10:27.:10:32.

operation. I didn't know about it. What then clearly happened was that

:10:32.:10:36.

Brodie Clark went way beyond the agreed terms of the pilot and we is

:10:36.:10:40.

now have a clear statement by the head of the UK Border Agency, he

:10:40.:10:44.

has endorsed what the Home Secretary said. Nick? Let me

:10:44.:10:47.

confess, I have been out of the country for a couple of days while

:10:47.:10:53.

this story was brewing up. I was in Brussels. The slight curiosity is

:10:53.:10:57.

we have the Prime Minister saying more people arrested, more guns

:10:57.:11:02.

were found. Is this a policy a failure or a success? That is a

:11:02.:11:06.

very good question. Both parties are desperate to show and sound

:11:06.:11:10.

like they are tough. Of course, there is an element in which all

:11:11.:11:13.

border controls are a balance between the consumer element which

:11:13.:11:19.

is do people wait for hours and get very cross about it? There are

:11:19.:11:25.

businessmen waiting, families with kids. Versus security. There is a

:11:25.:11:31.

balance. Let me ask, was the pilot a success? The pilot has not been

:11:31.:11:38.

evaluated. You have been boasting... The purpose of the pilot was to get

:11:38.:11:42.

focus on people coming through the country's borders that were thought

:11:42.:11:48.

to be potentially risky. Not have simply a tick in the box system and

:11:48.:11:52.

you can be a seven-year-old on a regulated school trip or a 25-year-

:11:52.:11:55.

old with something in your past and you are all treated the same way.

:11:55.:11:58.

The purpose was to get the Border Agency officials to exercise some

:11:58.:12:03.

judgment and focus on the people who they thought were the likely

:12:03.:12:08.

risk cases. You got 10% more... That appears to be the reason why

:12:08.:12:17.

we have more illegal immigrants. it was a success? The 10% is not a

:12:17.:12:18.

proper evaluation? The pilot was agreed by Ministers and we stand by

:12:19.:12:23.

the need to have a pilot. What we don't stand by was Brodie Clark

:12:23.:12:26.

doing something different. I don't understand how you can claim it

:12:26.:12:30.

caught out 10% more people than the old system and yet not be prepared

:12:30.:12:36.

to say it was a success? We know those figures. We don't know.

:12:36.:12:39.

we do know is the reason for the pilot - it is being suggested the

:12:39.:12:44.

reason of the pilot was to weaken border controls. The purpose was to

:12:44.:12:47.

strengthen and make more effective our border controls. The Prime

:12:47.:12:51.

Minister had a teed up question on FIFA's ban on the England team

:12:51.:12:56.

wearing poppies. He wants to say something strongly about it? Yes.

:12:56.:12:58.

He's offering himself around to television companies to say

:12:59.:13:03.

something. He thinks this is an issue he feels strongly about and

:13:03.:13:10.

he knows the country will feel strongly about it as well. Should

:13:10.:13:14.

the FIFA, should the England team defy the FIFA ban and walk out to

:13:15.:13:19.

the pitch with their poppies on their chests? Yes, they should. We

:13:19.:13:23.

should tell FIFA to go and take a running jump. When the whole

:13:23.:13:28.

country comes together this weekend for remembrance, it is a complete

:13:28.:13:31.

disgrace that England's national team would not be allowed to wear

:13:31.:13:36.

the poppy with pride as everyone else does. Should the England team

:13:36.:13:40.

defy the FIFA ban? I want to see the England team wearing their

:13:40.:13:47.

poppies. They should. So they should? What I would like to see is

:13:47.:13:50.

FIFA reconsidering what will still happen. Two for defying the ban.

:13:51.:13:57.

will be looking. Nick, thank you. It was also mentioned today the

:13:57.:14:01.

issue of party funding. A couple of weeks ago I asked Lord Levy what

:14:01.:14:05.

his advice to Andrew Rosenfeld would be. Good luck was the answer!

:14:06.:14:09.

One that betrayed the idea that raising significant cash for

:14:09.:14:13.

political parties veers between hard and impossible. Once again,

:14:13.:14:16.

the issue of state-funding and donation caps are being discussed

:14:16.:14:26.
:14:26.:14:27.

so Giles has been delving into what How political parties are funded

:14:27.:14:31.

country is a murky issue. The Conservatives have been accused of

:14:31.:14:35.

over-reliance on big-money donors like Lord Ashcroft. People do not

:14:35.:14:38.

understand why people are giving large amounts of money to political

:14:38.:14:42.

parties if they don't get something for it. Labour struggles on its

:14:42.:14:46.

almost total reliance on the unions, who do expect some backing for

:14:46.:14:49.

their buck. If you were to ask every trade unionist, do you want

:14:50.:14:53.

to give the number to the Labour Party, significant numbers will say

:14:53.:14:57.

no. So the minute you shine the light of transparency on the

:14:57.:15:01.

process, the amount of money coming from trade unions will drop.

:15:01.:15:03.

the Liberal Democrats to have always had significantly less than

:15:03.:15:07.

the other two ended up with their biggest donor, Michael Brown, being

:15:07.:15:13.

sent down as a crook. But it's Lib Dem leader and deputy Nick Clegg

:15:13.:15:17.

who has asked for the standards of public life Commission to construct

:15:17.:15:24.

a new format to go under approval, the 4th in seven years, the last,

:15:24.:15:28.

the �50,000 cap on donation in the Phillips inquiry, which narrowly

:15:28.:15:34.

failed. The proposals were fair to all sides, and �50,000 of that what

:15:34.:15:36.

was something we could have lived with on the Labour side and the

:15:36.:15:41.

others could have as well. I don't think either side particularly

:15:41.:15:44.

wanted to succeed, and Labour less. The trade unions basically killed

:15:44.:15:48.

the talks of behind the scenes. No matter what we said at the time,

:15:48.:15:52.

that is what happened. Sorting party funding has always

:15:52.:15:56.

traditionally been like fitting a tyre that is too small on a bike

:15:56.:16:00.

wheel. It is hard. You think once you've tucked in and sorted the

:16:00.:16:03.

problem with the unions and Labour, you have the donors and the Tory

:16:03.:16:08.

problem. You try and sort that and that pops back out again. Sort them

:16:08.:16:14.

both and you have the Lib Dems saying this disadvantages us. If

:16:14.:16:17.

you sort out all three, you discover that what you have come up

:16:17.:16:21.

with won't appeal to the public. It is actually very difficult and it

:16:21.:16:24.

has never been done and it always leaves democracy campaigners more

:16:24.:16:31.

deflated than pumped up. The trick is to devise a scheme for that in

:16:31.:16:36.

return for parties accepting a cap on donation, they get state funding,

:16:36.:16:40.

which exists a short money for opposite -- opposition parties.

:16:40.:16:44.

This would either be block funding, cash per vote, or more likely, a

:16:44.:16:48.

voucher system where we will tick a box for where we wish state money

:16:48.:16:55.

to go, rumours are about �3. What we won political parties to do is

:16:55.:16:59.

engage with the public and in -- earn their crust, if you like, and

:16:59.:17:05.

then a voter ticking a box seems a passive relation between voters and

:17:05.:17:09.

a political party. I think they should work harder for it, frankly.

:17:09.:17:14.

All the party leaders will have to accept, if they don't do it, while

:17:14.:17:17.

they are party leader will have to deal with the scandal affecting

:17:17.:17:21.

their party and donations. If they are not careful their personal

:17:21.:17:26.

reputation will be tarnished because, ultimately, the mix of

:17:26.:17:35.

money and votes and parties is a toxic one. Joining the now is the

:17:35.:17:44.

Liberal Democrat peer, Lord Russell. Joining me now is the Liberal

:17:44.:17:47.

Democrat peer Lord Razzall. You would obviously support this

:17:47.:17:52.

because you get more money with the three Band donation. We don't

:17:52.:17:56.

support it, because even though we would get more money, we wanted

:17:56.:17:59.

take this leaves out of British politics. All three parties could

:17:59.:18:05.

trade insults and I don't think that is appropriate in this context.

:18:05.:18:08.

The important thing about the proposals is they must be taken as

:18:08.:18:13.

a package. You cannot just pick one bit without having the other. If

:18:13.:18:18.

you're going to limit donations to the �50,000 talked about you have

:18:18.:18:21.

to introduce some element of public funding to replace the money would

:18:21.:18:29.

otherwise -- the party would otherwise lose. You mention Michael

:18:29.:18:33.

Brown, and with what happened in him, does it show that the system

:18:33.:18:36.

needs reforming? I think the parties could, with different

:18:36.:18:41.

examples, but yes, I think it does. To have that amount of money given

:18:41.:18:45.

by people, Michael Brown, and no one knows where he is, because he's

:18:45.:18:48.

on the run, and the Sunday Telegraph says he's in the

:18:48.:18:53.

Dominican Republic, he has suddenly popped up before the 2005 election

:18:53.:18:56.

and said he would give us �3 million before the election for

:18:56.:19:02.

though it was not apparent why he wanted it, but he did. We then

:19:02.:19:05.

discovered a lot later that he was convicted for all sorts of

:19:05.:19:09.

fraudulent offences. Just briefly, the state of finances or the

:19:09.:19:16.

Liberal Democrats? A not bad, actually. There was also the part

:19:16.:19:24.

of giving 10 % as a tide from your members. That is, along mode --

:19:24.:19:28.

local council groups to give an allowance to the party. -- among

:19:28.:19:32.

the local council bridge. It does sound sensible, so were due back?

:19:32.:19:37.

think all the parties want to see reform in party funding. It is a

:19:37.:19:40.

very tricky issue. The most important thing was alluded to in

:19:40.:19:44.

the package, and the public really have to have a say in this. It is

:19:44.:19:48.

OK for the political parties to get together and try and square the

:19:48.:19:52.

circle but if you are going to move to something like state funding in

:19:52.:19:55.

these difficult times you have to say to the public, is this

:19:56.:20:00.

something you really want to see. So it is worth taking the time and

:20:00.:20:04.

effort and talk to the public. would come back to whether they

:20:04.:20:06.

would support the funding in that way, but what about your

:20:06.:20:09.

relationships with the unions, bearing in mind Labour is so

:20:09.:20:13.

reliant on the unions of funding, it would completely eradicated in

:20:13.:20:18.

terms of the sorts of the size of money you get. We do not know what

:20:18.:20:23.

the proposals are. Would you back the �50,000 cap? That would be

:20:23.:20:26.

50,000 from each union. We would look at a cap, but it's a world

:20:26.:20:30.

away from looking at an organisation like a trade union.

:20:30.:20:32.

When we talk about trade union money we are talking about

:20:32.:20:36.

individuals, low-paid, part-time workers, in unison, who choose to

:20:36.:20:40.

give �3 a year through their political fund to the Labour Party

:20:40.:20:45.

to support campaigns. That is what we are talking about. There is a

:20:45.:20:48.

difference between a trade union donation what he's talking about,

:20:48.:20:52.

where the union it is affectingly acting as a collecting agency for

:20:52.:20:56.

membership and nobody is saying that should be attacked. But there

:20:56.:21:02.

is a suggestion and has come from Conservatives claiming that in

:21:02.:21:05.

terms of influence, the people will check with the unions before they

:21:05.:21:09.

make amendments to bills. I think that is a nonsense. As

:21:09.:21:12.

parliamentary numbers we get lobbied all the time, not just by

:21:12.:21:16.

trade unions and why were we not listen to public sector workers and

:21:16.:21:19.

manufacturing in the same way we get lobbied by charities and all

:21:19.:21:23.

kinds of organisations. Don't forget, in February the

:21:23.:21:26.

Conservatives were auctioning off jobs in the City, internships for

:21:26.:21:34.

family members. At a Conservative Party fundraiser, this was. People

:21:34.:21:37.

shouldn't really be throwing rocks at Labour on this. David Willetts,

:21:37.:21:41.

in terms of a cap on donation, that would affect the Conservative Party

:21:42.:21:48.

income. We accept the principle of a cap on donations. And �50,000?

:21:48.:21:54.

we have to see what the proposals are, but if there were some

:21:54.:21:57.

suggestions earlier of a cap at �10,000, then the trade-off you

:21:57.:22:02.

face, if you go that low, you increase the need for public

:22:02.:22:05.

spending instead to replace the money you have lost from donations.

:22:05.:22:10.

I think we have to be very careful of anything involving higher public

:22:10.:22:13.

spending and the taxpayers putting in more money. That is not what

:22:13.:22:18.

people want to see happening when times are tough. So you would not

:22:18.:22:22.

be in favour of going to the public to ask for more money? We have to

:22:22.:22:25.

see the proposals, but we are sceptical of anything involving

:22:25.:22:27.

more public spending when we are trying to get a grip on public

:22:27.:22:36.

spending. It is a tiny amount, and as shown in your film, one way is

:22:36.:22:40.

to get people to tick a box, but one of the other ideas around for a

:22:40.:22:44.

long time is that it should match- up to funding so any political

:22:44.:22:48.

party raising so much by a small donation should gets the same back

:22:48.:22:53.

from the Treasury. We don't want to go to the West German system where

:22:53.:22:57.

they are simply funded by the taxpayer irrespective of their

:22:57.:23:03.

contributions made by individual voters. Something else that does

:23:03.:23:07.

matter is that trade unions are individuals, they aggregated to buy

:23:07.:23:10.

policies like the work agreement and there has to be tackled as a

:23:10.:23:19.

priority in a funding proposal. I'm going to read this introduction

:23:19.:23:21.

because Andrew's too busy tweeting. And rest assured, when you read

:23:21.:23:25.

tweets from him they really are from him. But Twitter is awash with

:23:25.:23:28.

imposters who are pretending to be celebrities from the world of

:23:28.:23:38.
:23:38.:23:48.

The Westminster village is all twittering about fake tweeters.

:23:48.:23:52.

Steve Hilton spends all day thinking big thoughts and apart

:23:52.:23:57.

from when he is apparently tweeting things like this when the Daily

:23:57.:23:59.

Telegraph publish unflattering pictures of him drinking a cup of

:23:59.:24:05.

tea. Total Mystique failed to! Launching an inquiry into Daily

:24:05.:24:10.

Telegraph picks. Was rehearsing Dave X is in Number Ten with coffee

:24:10.:24:16.

mug to talk to media. Electric! hoaxers Aviv and struck at

:24:16.:24:21.

Buckingham Palace. How do you explain this tweed from the Queen?

:24:21.:24:24.

One can confirm that the Olympic torch will visit Clarence house

:24:24.:24:27.

where it will be used to light a cigarette for the Duchess of

:24:27.:24:34.

Cornwall. Even fellow hacks have not escaped. Check out this tweet

:24:34.:24:39.

posted from g 20 by a prankster posing as Daily Mail deputy

:24:39.:24:46.

political editor Tim Shipman. me a taxi to the airport, airport!

:24:47.:24:56.
:24:57.:24:58.

We apologise immediately. And we're joined now, as we normally are at

:24:58.:25:00.

this time on a Wednesday, by Conservative MP Peter Bone, who's

:25:00.:25:06.

wife - the famous Mrs Bone - has her very own fake Twitter account.

:25:06.:25:12.

Why do you think somebody could be to blame? Is it because you always

:25:12.:25:20.

mention her? It is quite amusing. It said I never thought I would say

:25:20.:25:27.

this, her rave from the Greeks. A referendum is good enough for them,

:25:27.:25:34.

Mr Cameron... Baking scones to calm my rage. Does Mrs Bone have a

:25:34.:25:40.

twitter account? Know. If she did, would she tweaked that? More

:25:40.:25:46.

moderate than she would tweet. Do people think it is your wife? I was

:25:46.:25:50.

alerted to it by colleagues in the House of Commons saying how funny

:25:50.:25:55.

it was. What, I said, and at the moment it is very good stuff.

:25:55.:26:00.

clean fun at the moment, not offensive, not bringing Mrs Bone

:26:00.:26:04.

into disrepute? You would be in trouble if that happened. There is

:26:04.:26:08.

a picture of her in her marigolds, so you wouldn't want to tangle with

:26:08.:26:14.

her. Is it a real picture? The S, taken from the BBC, actually. --

:26:14.:26:19.

yes. But of course the next post might say something racist or

:26:19.:26:22.

unacceptable and people have got used to thinking it is Mrs Bone.

:26:22.:26:30.

Then suddenly jumps at them. If it turned nasty, is there anything you

:26:30.:26:34.

could do about it? Not really. I think you can in the States. People

:26:34.:26:39.

can be sent to jail for five years, but here it is a real problem and

:26:39.:26:42.

the way to overcome it is to be up front and say it is not Mrs boning

:26:42.:26:47.

get that out in the public. I'm not really a great one for regulating

:26:47.:26:51.

people. But as long as people know it is not her. How do people know?

:26:51.:26:55.

By coming on shows like this, but there is a danger. For me it is not

:26:55.:26:59.

so serious, but it could be for other people. Do you have a Twitter

:26:59.:27:04.

account? Goodness gracious, no. you have the quill pen and pigeon

:27:04.:27:12.

post? I am about at that stage. Your technology has improved. Do

:27:12.:27:16.

you have a Twitter account? I have an official one. William Hague said

:27:16.:27:20.

they were all written by the civil servants. A jolly good day for the

:27:20.:27:25.

government today, etc. Do you have a Twitter account? I'd do, and

:27:25.:27:30.

there has been a big change in the last year. A bunch of journalists

:27:30.:27:33.

and politicians were talking to themselves, but in the last six

:27:33.:27:36.

months lots more people from Barnsley are following May and they

:27:36.:27:39.

are in little net works themselves and I think Twitter has changed

:27:40.:27:44.

quite a lot. The chief executive of Twitter was in town earlier this

:27:44.:27:50.

week and I discussed it with him. The point he made was that where it

:27:50.:27:54.

played an important role, they can disguise their identity and he

:27:54.:27:59.

thought that if people had been able to see who they were, history

:27:59.:28:05.

might have been different. fakes Steve Hilton has just waited

:28:05.:28:09.

to thank us for the free publicity. No doubt Mrs Bone will be doing the

:28:09.:28:16.

same. Pick the winner. What was the year? 1978. Here we go. Let me have

:28:16.:28:23.

a look. It is Jenny faster, you have one, Jenny Foster from Harvard.

:28:23.:28:28.

That is it for today. Special thanks to our guests of the day.

:28:28.:28:33.

Italian bonds have just hit 7.45 % yield which is probably be on the

:28:33.:28:38.

point of low return for Italian finances. Berlusconi's shares have

:28:38.:28:43.

slumped 10 % as well. We will be back at 11:30am tomorrow, a special

:28:43.:28:47.

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