01/12/2011 Daily Politics

Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Talks to try to

resolve the public sector pensions dispute are resuming after

yesterday's mass walk out. The four main education unions are attending

planned weekly talks at the Department of Education. Earlier a

government minister hinted there was a "realistic possibility of

reaching a deal". EU foreign ministers are discussing further

diplomatic reprisals against Iran, after mobs attacked the British

embassy in Tehran. John Prescott says he wants to "stop the clock

and save the planet". We'll be talking to him ahead of his trip to

the climate change conference in South Africa. Not Hull! And yes, I

know, it could all go horribly wrong. But we'll be removing two

MPs' Movember moustaches live. There will be blood on the full

today! -- floor. Yes, all that coming up in the next half hour of

television gold and with us for the duration we have the Associate

Editor of the Indpendent, Sean O'Grady. Welcome. Now first this

morning let's talk about the banks because share prices have risen

around the world after a group of the biggest central banks, led by

the US Federal Reserve, announced plans to support the banks. The

move followed talk of a new credit crunch amid fears of a break-up of

the euro. Last night, a Downing Street official said Britain was

already "experiencing a credit cunch". It is clear that the US

Federal Reserve Board the banking system was about to freeze up, that

the American money markets were dump in their assets in European

banks and that the European banks were unable to borrow the -- to

borrow dollars? That is right, and I think this has been a concern for

months amongst bankers and Treasuries, this is another credit

crunch. There have been signs of it for long time. That means the banks

are so worried about each other that they will no longer lend to

each other because of the risk of not getting their money back.

it is what happened post Lehman Brothers. A exactly, and then at

the banks got together -- exactly, and then the banks got together to

offer liquidity. They did what it took, that is what is happening now,

it is right, it is a problem with the Americans not lending money

into the European banks. European banks not lending to British banks,

vice versa. That is the crisis, the credit crunch, a second wave, like

a double dip. But the second phase that comes after is more worrying,

because if the banks are not willing to lend to each other, what

happens afterwards is they're not willing to lend to us, to buy her

house, car, whatever. -- a house. The Governor of the Bank of England

was part of this, he stressed this morning that central banks could

help with liquidity, keeping money in the system, but could not help

with solvency. In other words, going bust. That is right, that is

an important distinction. It is a bit like a man in a pub, if you

have a billionaire who goes in and has lost his wallet, or forgotten

it, he can't buy a drink, that is a liquidity problem. If you have a

man in negative equity who owes a lot on his credit card but can

still buy a pint in a pub, he has not got a liquidity problem, but a

solvency problem. That is the difference. Just like when the

banks were insolvent, we now have the issue where some banks may be

insolvent but more importantly, some countries are insolvent.

Greece is pretty much insolvent. Portugal as well. That's right.

They are unable to meet the bills and are basically going bust. The

central bank's money will not solve that. Died before explaining it.

The ASH thank you for explaining it. -- thank you. Now following

yesterday's public sector strike, a fresh attempt is being made to

resolve the dispute about changes to public sector pensions. The main

teaching unions whose action led to about two thirds of schools being

closed are currently holding talks with government officials. Tomorrow,

the health service unions will hold a similar meeting. Our

Correspondent Vicky Young is at Westminster. Has the strike changed

anything? It is interesting given that both sides cannot even agree

on the number of people who walked out, you're whipping there was not

much room for progress. But there are individual scheme talks going

on and they are due to continue doing so. The Cabinet Office

Minister has said in the past the talks are intensive and making

progress, but the union leaders I have spoken to today have said they

would regard these more has fact- finding missions rather than

negotiations. What happens next is how much pressure the unions will

come under to find a deal. They will have to think about whether

there will be more strike action in the New Year, the risk is they

alienate public opinion, people who put up with the disruption

yesterday, would be put up with a series of ongoing strikes with

schools being closed over the coming months? There is also the

issue of the pressure on the workers, and losing their pay every

day they go on strike. I think that is a problem for the unions and

something they will have to tackle in the New Year now.

Frankie. -- thank you. We can speak to the Pensions Minister Steve Webb

and Karen Jennings who's the Assistant General Secretary at the

union Unison. What was actually achieved, apart from people losing

a day of pay? It was a great day, hundreds of thousands out in town.

The government called it a damp squib. I think may have misjudged

it, public support was extraordinary. Many Poles have

demonstrated that. -- polls. Danny Alexander came before the House of

Commons and announced concessions. Iping when the Government takes in

what happened yesterday I hope talks will progress further.

Talking to the education unions today, if they are offered further

concessions, if a better deal is put on the table you would, I

presume, advise them to take it whatever happens with other unions?

They are in discussions, of course of they can get a better deal - in

fact, if they can get a better deal in discussions, it bodes well for

discussions elsewhere. But the indication seems to be they may try

to do deals and pick of that union and not give better deals to the

others. But you would support a deal that would go better for

education? We would not expect education trade unions to forgo a

deal they were getting. We are in a sector negotiations but in central

discussions There are still quite a lot for us to do, particularly on

issues around 750,000 part-time workers he will have to pay that

full contribution and if they cannot afford to they will pour out

of those schemes which will threaten the very schemes

themselves. Can you just tell us now, for part-time workers are

earning �15,000 a year or less, they will be worse off? What has

happened is the architecture is common across the schemes, working

longer is common, putting mooring is common. There is a lack of

clarity over that. Lower-paid workers pay less, then each

individual scheme is negotiated one how that is delivered so scheme by

scheme they will look at the issue you have raised... But there is a

general point here about part-time workers because the indication from

the government is it is wound up to its full time equivalent, if you

worry part-time worker in the NHS one just under �15,000, you will be

hit. The majority of people affected are in local government

and that scheme is looking at that. Yesterday we were told there were

no negotiations going on, yet today there is negotiations going on

arranged long before the strikes. Their essential negotiations is

what we were talking about. there were sector by sector talks

going on. We have said that. The local government talks stopped

because local government employers stopped because they were not

getting any information from the Treasury. The discussions we have

been having have been absent of any figures we have to talk around, so

really they have not been negotiating, there have been

discussions. Government ministers are saying they are positive and

optimistic about a deal, are you? We have to see what the figures are

saying. There seems to be a disconnect between what the unions

feel about these negotiations and the government. Are they getting

closer? We are continuing to talk but we are not getting closer,

There is more work to be done. in terms of the strike, the

government said before and if it went ahead the Deal and concession

that was made would be taken off the table. Has it been? I am not

involved in the discussions so cannot give a straight answer but

there is a danger we get into the mind you sure of this and lose the

big picture. Somebody carried a placard yesterday saying leave my

pension alone, what they were saying is I want somebody else to

pay for it. There is a danger we going to the fine detail, but the

main picture is we have to work longer and put more money in, that

is the thing that will not change, but the details are being

negotiated. Are the Lib Dems happy? I you have the that low-paid

workers have lost out on tax credit to pay for the Contra the

government announced? That is not what happened. Everybody on a low-

income in this country because they are unemployed, sick, elderly got

the full 5.2 per cent increase that the Lib Dems press for. The youth

contract is an excellent initiative which was part of the whole Oughton

package, so it was not like this tweak... I am not sure how they

would -- that is how they would see it. Jeremy Clarkson's comments

about strikers, saying they should be shot, he would take them outside

and execute them. It was a joke? was more of a joke of -- it was

more than a joke, it is how he makes a living, I do not know if

anybody has noticed that. He makes outrageous claims about things. It

is a great way to make a living. I wish I was good at it. Better to

ignore it, is it? I think it is incitement to violence, anger, I

think there are BBC journalists, correspondents who have been sacked

for worse. For somebody close to the Prime Minister it is extremely

ill-tempered and nasty. We are certainly going to take legal

action, or look to see what action can be taken. One word in your

response? A stupid thing to say, he should apologise and we should get

on with our lives. He said he wanted them shot in front of their

families, I thought I would get that on a record. -- the record.

Now lets' turn our eyes to Iran because EU foreign minsters are in

Brussels where they're discussing further diplomatic reprisals

against the country after mobs attacked the British embassy in

Tehran. Jo bring us up to date. Then I will chat to Jack Straw.

This is the situation - on Tuesday this week the British Embassy was

in Tehran, it was daubed by demonstrators, angry at the big

government -- at the government's decision to impose further

sanctions on Iran. The new measures came about after concerns over

their nuclear programme. David Cameron warned of serious

consequences for Iran and the UK pulled a number of diplomatic staff

out of the country. Last night the Foreign Secretary went a step

further and ordered the immediate closure of the Iranian embassy in

London, expelling all their diplomats from the country.

Europe's foreign ministers are meeting Brussels today, and talk of

new measures on around look likely to dominate. France, Germany and

the Netherlands have all recalled their ambassadors from Tehran for

consultations and William Hague is pushing for stronger sanctions.

This is what he said earlier... hope you'll agree today that

additional measures that will be an intensification of the economic

pressure on Iran, peaceful, legitimate, economic pressure,

particularly to increase the isolation of the Iranian financial

sector. But that is to be discussed at the meeting. We continue later

what we decided to do. Jack Straw is with us. Our Britain's relations

with Iran back in the freezer? -- They are for the moment. I am not

going to criticise William Hague. I know, having done that job, that

making those decisions is more difficult than commenting on them.

Foreign secretary's have more information than any observer. --

secretaries. I am concerned how we will restore some semblance of

relations, as we will have to. An independent economist said today,

very critical in terms of dependency with Iran, because we

know a lot about the country, we have some very good diplomats and

because the US has not had diplomatic relations there for over

30 years we have been able to provide information and

understanding of the Iranian system, not always do what the US wants us

to do, to the US and other key diplomatic allies. Tragically that

has now gone. It seems to be Alain Juppe, the French foreign

minister, has called for his actions quote on a scale that would

paralyse the regime. Is that going to happen? I do not know whether it

is going to happen. One question I have is whether it would have been

better to wait before the banking sanctions were imposed, which were

imposed by the US, Canada and the UK, until we had do you agreement

for does. Had that happened, the UK would have been less of an obvious

target and that the non uniformed thugs employed by the regime two

light the Gestapo. They once demonstrated against me in Tehran

when we were tried to have discussions with the Iranians. They

blocked our route out. This is by no means unusual. My colleague was

going to Lampard one of these guys. Then we got out. That is not very

diplomatic. I was told very firmly to stay in my car by the detected.

That would have spread the protests. The Iranian regime is in a high

degree of turmoil, that is known. There is very bad blood between the

supreme leader, who has huge power, and the allegedly democratically

elected President in 2009. One of my concerns over the past few years

is some of the steps the West has taken, particularly the US, have

been to play into the hands of the hardliners. There are opportunities

with the President to strengthen him and yet from the time when

President Bush lumped Iran in with Iraq and North Korea in the access

of evil that undermined the reformers. I saw their frustration.

You're a softly-softly approach did not get us anywhere. Iran

effectively is on the brink of having a bomb. My softly, softly

approach was getting somewhere. We got very close. It was the first

and best example of a co-ordinated, European Union foreign policy it.

You cannot put back the mistakes that were made in the past, but

there were concessions which we should have offered the Iranians.

It was not a sensible to lump a reformist President in Iran in

which Saddam Hussein and the madman running North Korea at the time.

That undermined them. We have to have negotiations with Iran. It is

plain they have made further progress in building up a nuclear

capability. Are you in any doubt it wants a bomb? I am not in any doubt

it wants a nuclear capability. There has always been doubts about

whether it also wants to develop a weapon. They have got missiles

anyway. A lot of the Iranians want a grand bargain with the West, and

they had an opportunity to do that when buy came in. I am not

criticising the Foreign Secretary, it is a difficult situation, and I

hope they are giving it thought in their Foreign Office, I am worried

about what exit strategy we have from this. Good to talk to you.

Now to a Daily Politics annual event. John Prescott talking about

climate change. The last time he appeared on the programme talking

about this subject was a year ago today. What has been happening in

the meantime? It is so an unseasonably warm, it

is practically the weather for shirtsleeves will stop you cannot

read too much into climate change based on one day's conditions. But

this year it is the 10 hottest on record, meaning that 13 of the

hottest have happened since 1997. That was when John Prescott helped

negotiate the Kyoto protocol which compelled nations to cut carbon

emissions between 2008 and 2012. With that end state rapidly

approaching, world leaders met in Copenhagen in 2009 to try and

thrash out a successor agreement. That was a washout. Now they are

giving it another go in Durban in South Africa, but hopes of an

agreement are not especially high because there are big disagreements

between countries. The EU wants negotiations to start now. India,

Brazil and the US do not want to start talking until 2015. Sceptics

who doubt the science have new allies in the shape of those who

think all this greenery is a break from economic growth. A former

Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, welcome back to your show on your

anniversary appearance. How many of the climate change summits have you

been to? About four or five starting in Kyoto. Sky will

probably go on to Rio de Janeiro, the celebratory year. They never

hold them in places like car or Sellafield or Glasgow. I went to

Copenhagen and that was pretty freezing. It was not exotic. What

are the chances at Durban? Will it be as big a waste of time as the

others? It was impossible to keep the legal framework we agreed for

the industrial relations at Kyoto and you had to have a voluntary

framework. That has now come about. But also the voluntary when you

have got to get them to agree to these targets and we have got to

have a global agreement. My fear is now the rich countries,

particularly America and Canada, they are about to put the boot into

the poorest part of the world by saying they do not want to keep the

principles of Kyoto. Did they want it finish? They would like to see

it finished. It has never been renewed. When we did not finish the

negotiations on the EU membership, that stopped the clock. I am

proposing that the Kyoto agreement finishes in 2012, keep the

framework Boeing, freeze it on the quay at the principles and by 2015

complete the tops and hopefully get the agreement. $100 billion to go

annually into a green climate fun? That is essential because we have

to reduce greenhouse gases in the developing countries as well as the

developed. You need that money to make the transfer of technology it.

The we will not get 100 bn in this climate. I am sad to see that

America in the last few weeks, along with Saudi Arabia, have

decided not to contribute to the fund, so we will not have that at

Devon. The Saudis have said because these moves were reduced well

compensate -- consumption, they work compensation. They said that

at Kyoto. Kyoto is dead in the water. It is still an agreement and

we are one of the leading countries that has achieved the Kyoto targets.

How much of our share of the 100 billion would go in? These are

talks we hope to complete by the Rio de Janeiro next year. America

is a big part of it. While Bush was against it and they did not want to

be in Kyoto, we have now got Barack Obama it says he believes in the

science, but has totally failed to get any kind of thing going.

whole project is running out of steam. Kyoto is not going to be

renewed. The 100 billion is not going to happen, Copenhagen will

achieve nothing. You are throwing about these lines of achieving

nothing. If you look at Britain between the two governments we have

at a 24% cut in carbon. That is a success. We have 2 million more

jobs. That is Britain doing it without the summits. You have the

targets and you have the climate legislation to implement it, so we

have made movement. It is not as fast as we want, but it is right to

do it. If you think you have a problem with bankers, the science

is clear. It would be catastrophic. People have been listening to this

for so long. I am not commenting on whether it is right or wrong,

people have had enough of this and they do not take it as seriously

now and they think Copenhagen, at Rio de Janeiro, I just a waste of

time. I agree with John Prescott. He has had his differences with the

Independent newspaper and Twitter and other places. With everyone. I

wanted to thank and congratulate John Prescott for what he did

during his time in office on environmental progress. It was

fantastic work. The Independent has always been a green paper. Just

because you cannot get everything done and everyone to agree on every

issue does not mean you should not tried. Do we just sit back and say

you cannot do anything? You would be out of work and I would be out

of work. You are never be out of work. You re invent yourself all

the time. You are a one-man job creation scheme. You would be good

in the Government to create jobs. There were a million more jobs in

my time. We may be out of work after days. We try something

completely different and it is really different because with us in

the studio we had two MPs who want to shave their moustaches off. They

have been growing them for the charity Movember throughout the

month of November and they cannot wait to get rid of them. Here they

are, lambs to the slaughter. The Labour MP Ian Murray and the Lib

Dem MP Mike Crockhart and we are also joins, because we are not

going to before and this. Joins from Pall Mall Barbers. Are you

really desperate to get rid of them. Cannot wait. Absolutely. Was it

very difficult to grow? It was automatic. Mine was just stuck on.

Let's see how quick it is. We don't Was about the cuts the Liberal

Democrats are promising at the next election? I had to ask you that.

George, you can start on him as well. That only took about 30

seconds. It is fantastic. Will you do it next year? Absolutely not, it

raised a lot of money, but it was a big commitment. My one looks very

creepy because it will not grow here. I have tried it. I looked

like an incredibly sleazy character, so I have never tried again. I saw

all these people with beards and moustaches and I wondered what they

were doing! You are cleanly shaven. Well done and thank you for coming

on the programme. I am just glad I have got my hair on top. We have

got to pick the winner from yesterday's guess the year

competition. The answer was 1954. You have got to pick one out. It