Browse content similar to 13/12/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Our high streets | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
are in crisis - that's the verdict of the government's retail tsar, | :00:26. | :00:33. | |
Mary Portas. So what can be done to regenerate them? | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
After last week's deal, are European politicians any closer to | :00:35. | :00:45. | |
:00:45. | :00:47. | ||
discovering the elusive solution to the euro-zone debt crisis? | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
France blackballed Britain from the Common Market. | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
Do you get a sense of deja-vu? After Britain wields its opt-out, | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
President Sarkozy says there are now "two Europes" - it is the | :00:55. | :01:03. | |
latest cross-Channel spat that has lasted - well, centuries. | :01:03. | :01:13. | |
And do shrikes leave strikers any All that in the next half-hour. | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
With us for the whole programme today is the general secretary of | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
the PCS union, Mark Serwotka. And no Andrew this afternoon. He | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
decided his presence next to me in the studio today would be a | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
distraction. But don't worry, a bit like Nick Clegg, we are hoping he | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
will pop up a bit later on to explain himself. | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
First this morning, our high streets are in crisis. That's the | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
conclusion of a report for the Government by the so-called Queen | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
of shops, Mary Portas. She says many high streets will be lost | :01:38. | :01:46. | |
unless councils and shops work together to regenerate them. | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
Whereas the high street was always just about shopping, that shopping | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
has shifted into new areas. We have the internet, we have these out-of- | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
town malls, the hypermarkets and supermarkets. We have not redefined | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
what the high street is. We have let it go and neglected it. We have | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
not had a vision. I propose that we look at a high street in a | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
different way, as a multi- functional social and shopping High | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
Street, so that we create ft fall back on the high street for other | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
uses other than shopping. Mark Serwotka Hamas -- how important is | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
the high street? Is important not just to the high street, but to the | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
communities we live in. But the first thing to do is make sure | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
people have money to spend it in shops anyway. Part of the problem | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
at the moment is that many are having a cut in their living | :02:40. | :02:48. | |
standards. And therefore, there is not much disposable income to spend. | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
It does not help when in many communities, the Government is | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
withdrawing from high streets. We have seen Jobcentres closing or | :02:56. | :03:03. | |
licensing offices. 39 of those are closing. It is about jobs, I take | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
your point about consumer spending and people needing money in their | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
pockets. But in terms of getting to the shops, should the Government | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
focus attention on the retail sector at this time of year? It has | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
to do what it can to regenerate our economy. What support can be found | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
for small businesses and shops, we have to find it. But at the end of | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
these -- at the end of the day, for these businesses to be a success, | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
they need people coming through the door with money to spend. That is | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
the real issue at the moment. We need to create jobs, create demand | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
in the economy and make sure people can spend. That is the best way to | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
regenerate the high street. Now, we are expecting a crucial | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
press conference in Europe this afternoon. After all-night sessions | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
and passionate disagreements over the details, scientists at the | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
Large Hadron Collider in CERN are expected to announce the answer to | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
life, the universe and everything - the discovery of the famed Higgs | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
boson particle. Unfortunately, despite claims that the euro-zone | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
debt crisis had been solved after press conferences in Brussels last | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
week, doubts are beginning to surface. While particle physics has | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
relatively few unknowns, economics, especially that of the euro-zone, | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
seems to be a far more inexact science. European politicians have | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
spent months rushing around in a circular motion, colliding with | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
each other in the hunt for the Holy Grail of euro salvation. The latest | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
experiment involves a new fiscal compact, with new rules as | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
immutable as Newton's Third Law of motion. This new compact will be | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
combined with an application of physical force - a 200 billion euro | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
bail-out fund provided by national central banks via the IMF to prop | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
up countries at risk of default. But at the moment, this is more | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
theoretical than the Higgs boson, with only the German Bundesbank | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
pledging EUR45 billion. And that sum is a mere fraction of the | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
galactic 600 billion that would be needed to bail out both Italy and | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
Spain. But the markets continue to exert their own inevitable logic, | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
with bond yields in those Club Med countries creeping up again and the | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
euro sliding against the dollar and the pound. So can Europe's leaders | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
finally re-write the laws of economics and save the euro and | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
avoid a catastrophic big bang? Andrew's at the European Parliament | :05:15. | :05:24. | |
in Strasbourg, from where he joins me now. It sounds like this deal | :05:24. | :05:34. | |
:05:34. | :05:36. | ||
that has been put on the table is unravelling? Yes, it is. We have | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
already had a minister in France, the man the polls say will be the | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
next President, saying he wants to renegotiate the deal agreed last | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
week. The Austrian Chancellor does not like it. The president of the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
German parliament does not like it, and thinks it may be | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
unconstitutional. The ratings agencies are talking about | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
downgrading every European Union credit ratings. So the sense that | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
the deal that was done last week has anything to do with the current | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
sovereign debt crisis, they are far apart and it is beginning to | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
unravel. The Americans have also made it clear that they will not | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
put any more money into the IMF. A source in President Obama's White | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
House said to me, if you think the president is going to Congress to | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
get money for the Europeans in an election year, you must be on | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
another planet. Be if no one is going to put more money in and | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
everyone says it is not enough at the moment, not the big bazooka | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
that is needed in terms of bailing out a country as big as Spain and | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
Italy, where do they go from here? They go to another crisis. Word | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
reached me from Berlin today that the Chancellor is even talking | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
about another summit before Christmas. We have already had six | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
this year. If not, there will be one early in the new year. While | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
they talk about all sorts of things to do with fiscal union and 3% | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
budgets and balanced budgets and so on, the markets are having their | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
way. The Spanish and Italian bond yields are under pressure again, | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
the euro is at a recent low against the dollar, and there is no | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
firewall, as the Austrian Chancellor said. There is no | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
firewall big enough to protect Spain or Italy at the moment. Last | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
week's European summit did nothing to put one in place. | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
I am joined now by the former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw and | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
from Paris by Jacques Myard, an assembly member in President | :07:31. | :07:40. | |
Sarkozy's party. Jacques Myard, talking to our colleagues in | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
Strasbourg, it does sound like the deal that was done will not happen. | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
Is that your sense as well? It is not that the deal will not happen, | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
the question is how the deal can solve the problem. Frankly, I have | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
great doubts that we will find a solution to save the Eurozone. We | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
are going to put the Eurozone in a straitjacket by controlling and | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
cutting expenses. But that is not the solution. The solution is a | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
lack of competitiveness of some members of the Eurozone, like | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
Greece, Spain and even France. We are facing a wall, which is that | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
this Eurozone is absolutely inadequate for the strengths of our | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
economies. So what is needed to happen? If you say this is not | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
going to be enough to stem the Eurozone crisis, you are talking | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
about competitiveness, what do these countries need to do? | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
short-term needs, if there is no militarisation of the debts, that | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
means genuine aid coming from the central bank to those states, they | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
will pay their debts more expensive live. In the long term, we have to | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
think, is this single currency adequate for our economies? Of | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
course, I have always been reluctant towards the euro. I think | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
we have reached the end of it. We have to face the reality. I am | :09:19. | :09:28. | |
sorry to say that in many terms, the French political classes and | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
European political classes are in a kind of religious belief, saying | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
that the euro is Europe, and there is no future apart from that, which | :09:36. | :09:44. | |
is wrong. We need to face reality. Listening to that, Jack Straw, no | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
one thinks it is enough. No one thinks it will work. The Eurozone | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
crisis is going to lurch on, isn't it? Running a single currency | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
outside a single country is inherently difficult, and that is | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
one reason why I was never in favour of it, but that is what many | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
countries opted for. If you are going to do that, you have to have, | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
as George Osborne has acknowledged, a fiscal union, which was at the | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
heart of the agreement formed last week. That is a necessary part of | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
salvation, but by no means a sufficient part. As you and this | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
gentlemen have just said, if you want to solve the immediate crisis, | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
you have to monitor as centrally the debt of Europe. That is | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
something Chancellor Merkel will not do. No, and without it, the | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
Eurozone cannot move on. I think it will move on with great difficulty. | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
It surprises me that the German Chancellor, although she has | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
problems in her own backyard like every other head of a Government, | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
she does not acknowledge and lead her people to say, we are the | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
people who have month -- most benefited from the euro. Why can't | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
we now assist in keeping the euro together? Jacques Myard, do you | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
agree with Jack Straw that the Germans have to make the central | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
bank come up with the goods now and without it, this crisis will get | :11:15. | :11:24. | |
work? I have always said we need to monitor rise the debts. That means | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
we need strong help from the central bank. The treaty forbids | :11:30. | :11:40. | |
that. But this can only work if you transfer money from the strong to | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
the weak countries. And Germany knows that if they do that, they | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
will have to pay up to 4% of their gross national product in transfers | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
to Italy and Spain etc, which is more expensive than the | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
reunification of eastern Germany and western Germany. Even in France, | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
Mr Sarkozy is now looking at the prospect of downgrading from the | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
credit ratings in France. But the French economy is not strong either. | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
You can't expect it also to come up with that kind of money, because it | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
itself is vulnerable. Yes. A downgrading of France is not so | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
awful, because I think all countries will be downgraded. The | :12:24. | :12:32. | |
only point is that our -- it will be more expensive for France to | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
borrow. So I think we have to change monetary policy. As Mr Straw | :12:38. | :12:46. | |
just said, we need to monitor as that. If we do that in the short | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
term, we will be facing a wall and it will be more expensive and it | :12:52. | :13:00. | |
will be the end. Jack Straw, is it the case that Britain's position | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
outside not only the 17, but the 26, if we were at that table, would we | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
be able to influence more to persuade the Germans to let the | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
central bank by government bonds and let them rescue the Eurozone in | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
a way that we can't now? Yes. If you read the conclusions of the | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
European Council last Thursday and Friday, you will see that a number | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
of countries in the EU -- in the EU but outside the Eurozone said they | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
reserved their position. David Cameron could have done that. He | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
could have completely preserved all his negotiating position. He was | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
not signing up to anything formal, but he would have been in the room. | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
His difficulty and now the country's difficulty is that | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
gratuitously, he has lost influence. Would it have made a difference? | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
course. I have seen these negotiations. It is a fact of life | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
that heads of government have very large egos. Tell us something we | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
don't know! It is about national interest, but it is also about | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
their interest. This matters, because these guys are very | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
powerful. John Major understood that how you deal with it makes a | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
reunification. The result was that when he needed something, | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
Chancellor Kohl said to him, what can I deliver for you? In this | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
situation, we need a resolution to the euro crisis. Schadenfreude is | :14:32. | :14:42. | |
:14:42. | :14:44. | ||
not a policy. Our future depends on Of course, the British did not sign | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
up to the agreement in Brussels last week. Nicolas Sarkozy rejected | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
outright Britain's demands for an opt-out on City regulation, which | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
he said was not acceptable. He added that there are a now clearly | :14:57. | :15:04. | |
two Europes. Is this just another salvo in the centuries long tiff | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
with our neighbours? Let's start in the 17th century, when this French | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
bishop is one of the first to be recorded using the phrase, | :15:14. | :15:23. | |
perfidious Albion. In other words, cheating Brits. Fast forward to the | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
1960s, the news reels were fretting about vetoes then, too. Charles de | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
Gaulle had denied Britain's application to join the group which | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
was to become the EU. We finally got membership in the 1970s. Then, | :15:37. | :15:45. | |
along came this lady, in a fetching jumper. They will be keeping an | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
all-night vigil under the statue of Winston Churchill, the first person | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
to have the great vision for working together for peace in | :15:52. | :15:59. | |
Europe. Instead, war was waged by the Sun against the French man in | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
charge of the European Commission in the 1990s. His request for more | :16:03. | :16:11. | |
powers begat this famous soundbite. No, no, no! Tony Blair's language | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
was warmer, but the relationship was spoiled by the French banning | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
this, British beef, and disagreeing with this, the Iraq war. Now, the | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
theory is that the French are trying to pinch business from the | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
City. President Sarkozy, normally famously shy about speaking English, | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
knows that money talks, as demonstrated by this clip from a | :16:35. | :16:45. | |
:16:45. | :16:46. | ||
few years ago. You are welcome to invest in France. We will be happy | :16:46. | :16:54. | |
to help you make money in France. And of course, to make some money | :16:54. | :17:02. | |
with you - for us. There we go. And the two Jacks and Mark Serwotka are | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
still with me. Is the entente cordiale dead in the water? It is | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
not dead in the water, it is damaged. Don't forget they were our | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
great allies in the First World War, and they are then faced German | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
occupation in the Second World War. We are two similar-sized countries, | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
both on the Security council, have remarkably parallel although | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
different histories, very proud of our nations, but we need each other. | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
My experience of dealing with the French, sometimes they could drive | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
me mad, but I daresay I could drive them mad. But you could co-operate | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
with them. As far as the current commissioner is now concerned, the | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
commissioner on business regulation, I had a lot to do with him. He was | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
the French Foreign Minister. He's French, I'm British, but this guy | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
is not gratuitously going to damage European businesses. You can get | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
alongside these people. I'm not naive at all. But I do not believe | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
you need to damage diplomatic relations in the way that we have | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
done, as David Cameron has done. Jacques Myard, Nicolas Sarkozy | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
accused David Cameron of shouting from the sidelines about the | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
eurozone crisis - is the relationship damage in that way, as | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
we have just heard from Jack Straw, or is it all politics? I do not | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
agree with Jack Straw. Our relationship, our diplomatic | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
relationships, are much stronger than these last events. I tell you | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
this morning, the French are more interested in Jonny Wilkinson's | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
decision to retire than David Cameron and any comment like that. | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
So, don't worry. No, in fact, in the view of Sarkozy, there are two | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
kinds of Europe. There is the euro Europe, that he is trying to save | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
with Germany, and there are other relations, especially in terms of | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
defence, and world powers, which we do with Great Britain. We signed a | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
treaty in the last few months on Nuclear Corporation, and this is | :19:10. | :19:18. | |
very important. This has all been a bit of a sideshow, Mark Serwotka, | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
saving the eurozone from its crisis is the most important issue, not | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
this treaty - how do you see the relationship between Britain and | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
France, is it important as far as the unions are concerned? My only | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
beef with the French is that they beat Wales in the Rugby World Cup, | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
with a very unjust outcome. The European trade unions, in France, | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
Britain, Germany and Greece, have issued a statement in the last 24 | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
hours. What we say is, the people who are suffering in Europe are | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
working people - people losing their jobs, having their incomes | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
cut, their pensions slashed. None of what has happened over the last | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
few days, it seems to me, has really been about addressing the | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
needs of working people. They're trying to save these countries from | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
a debt crisis. They say they are. But the view that we have is that | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
it is the wrong answer to the problem. We need to grow our | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
economies, and we want to grow our economies and deal with the deficit | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
over the longer term. What we want to do is open the debate up and say, | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
why aren't any of these European leaders talking about the role of | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
the markets, the fact that the markets are unaccountable, are now | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
picking governments in parts of Europe, setting social policy, | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
effectively? We know that the markets do not care about the | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
welfare state and the NHS, like we do. So we need a more fundamental | :20:39. | :20:47. | |
discussion, not fiddling while Rome burns. A couple of weeks ago, | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
members of Mark Serwotka's union, the PCS, were striking over the | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
Government's proposed pension reforms. A fierce battle has raged | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
over whether public sector workers were right to go on strike. But | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
there is another issue. Our strikes in general effective means of | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
getting your own way? Here's Giles. It is a fact of modern industrial | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
relations that both unions and managers have started to see the | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
strike as something of a last resort. Unions have discovered more | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
sophisticated ways of industrial action, short of a strike, and | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
private sector managers have discovered the economic value of | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
compromise. So, is it time to ask the question, what do strikes | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
achieve? The range of outcomes and his wide, from the success of women | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
workers at Ford's Dagenham, whose strike led to laws on equal pay, to | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
the failure of the miners to keep pits open. Most end with compromise, | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
or compromise comes first. Bylaw, disputes are more specific, strikes | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
are harder to call. There is more concession bargaining, less big | :21:51. | :21:59. | |
causes. We deal with about 900 disputes per year. When I went to | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
work for ACAS in 1976, we were dealing with 7,500. The threat of | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
strikes is very often effective, and that is one of the more recent | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
developments, with changes in the law requiring unions to ballot | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
their members. They can then say, we have balloted our members, and | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
they are willing to come out on strike, now, what more have you got | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
to offer? Clearly, in the recent pensions dispute, things have come | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
to a head. Militants, itching for a fight. They want families to be | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
inconvenienced. We are not itching for a fight. But we do need | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
ministers who want to reach an agreement with us. Despite the | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
disappointment of the party opposite, it looks like something | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
of a damp squib... But from experience of conciliator in many | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
disputes, it may seem like two sides are at war, but it can be | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
very different behind the scenes. The difference between the | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
collective dispute, trade union and employer, and an individual dispute, | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
is that in the collective dispute, the union and the employer have got | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
to cope with tomorrow. Whereas genuinely, with an individual, the | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
relationship is ended. So, there is much more of a meeting of minds | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
than perhaps the public rhetoric would suggest. Increasingly, old | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
unions have taken a lead on new tricks, with more sophisticated | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
options, short of strikes. strike is a nuclear option. It will | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
only do that if there is really nothing else that can be done. It | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
is expensive, it is difficult, quite often unpopular, and unions | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
use strikes as a last resort. I cannot think of any union which | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
would simply go on strike for the sake of it. The strike in itself is | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
not a principle, it is a tactic. There are does politically who will | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
say strikes achieve nothing whatsoever. But there is one | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
undeniable answer to that. You're never going to know what would have | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
happened had there not been a strike, you're trying to measure | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
something which is unmeasurable. If there had not been a strike, what | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
the employer have offered more? You do not know. Mark Serwotka is still | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
here, and we're also joined by the Conservative MP Dominic Raab. Mark, | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
can you give any recent examples of where a strike has had a positive | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
effect? In the last few months, PCS, employed in a private sector | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
company, a multinational company, offered a derisory pay rise, went | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
on strike and it ended up getting an 11% pay increase for the lowest- | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
paid. Very interesting, because what it said is that if industrial | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
action in the private sector is going to make a company realise its | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
profits may be effective, they will come round the negotiating table. | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
What do you say to that? private sector it rather different, | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
you have got far less strike days lost in the private sector, the | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
whole dynamic is very different. The whole issue with effectiveness | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
is that if your aim is to cause damage, a strike will do that. We | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
saw in the most recent strikes damage done to parents with schools | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
closing. If your aim is to carry public opinion, I think they have | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
failed. If you look back Mark's union, just one in five of his own | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
members backed the strike, which is why, if I'm a finish, you seek | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
instantly suddenly consistently from June to November, the polls | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
are showing that they had lost the support of the public. Strike | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
ballots only need a majority of those who take part, not a majority | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
of those eligible to vote, and that is a real problem with the public, | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
is it not? You're talking about far smaller numbers than the unions try | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
to paint. I disagree. You cannot disagree that it is with the | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
majority who take part. If we start talking about thresholds, we would | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
not have Boris Johnson in his current post. It is an unnecessary | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
hurdle. We have the most restrictive union laws in any | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
Western European country. It is fantastically difficult. I have | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
said to the government, and I will say it again now, if they want | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
bigger turnout in ballots, we have made numerous suggestions to make | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
it easier to vote, telephone, online, in the workplace - they do | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
not want to know. Do you think that would make a difference? Of course | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
it would. The public will not thing strikes are credible if you have | :26:22. | :26:30. | |
such low numbers voting... I think actually, in all strikes, the | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
times bigger than those who actually cast the vote. The turnout | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
which matters is on the day. In the strike we have just seen, two | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
million people on strike to stop a raid on their pensions, it was one | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
of the most effective demonstrations of opposition to the | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
Government which we have seen in recent years. Except, the | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
Government make concessions on the threat of strike, not the strike | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
itself. Since then, there has been nothing. Actually, it was the | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
tiniest concession. I have just come from the TUC this morning, and | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
we have started discussing further industrial action. The reason for | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
that is to get the Government around the negotiating table. They | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
have not met us since the 2nd November. We want a negotiated | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
settlement, but if they are not even in the room, it becomes | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
impossible. What do you say to that, Dominic? Will this mean the | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
Government will feel it has to make another concession? Well, they have | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
already made a massive concession. If you're a carpenter, a cabbie or | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
a hairdresser, you will be looking at the reformed pensions which | :27:35. | :27:43. | |
public sector workers will be getting, and it is way out of the | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
League of what the vast majority, the hard-working majority in this | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
country, will be able to access. I think if we have a further threat | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
of strikes, you will see more ebbing of public opinion, and I | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
think the unions have lost it. The real question is this - the | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
government is out of touch with ordinary, hard-working people. I | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
think it is the militant minority of hardline union leaders, who have | :28:06. | :28:14. | |
not accepted a cracking offer on the table, though, with their | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
inflation -- inflated salaries and pensions, are looking increasingly | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
out of touch themselves. I think you should not be able to have | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
hundreds of people paralysing the infrastructure in London, which | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
disrupts millions, on the votes of a few hundred people. If ever there | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
was confirmation of a government being out of touch, it used to | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
describe as a cracking offer, work eight years longer, pay thousands | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
of pounds more in, it is robbery. But equality of misery is not a | :28:43. | :28:49. |