18/01/2012 Daily Politics


18/01/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Iain Duncan Smith and Andy Burnham. There is a look at how to pay for care for the elderly with the former newspaper editor Rosie Boycott.


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Transcript


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Morning, folks, this is the Daily Politics.

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Talking tough on welfare - the Government says it will push

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through its reforms whatever opposition the Lords might throw up.

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Many peers have spent the last week trying to scupper Iain Duncan

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Smith's bill and the battle's not over yet. We'll be talking to the

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man in charge. Poor old Ed. He's been taking a lot

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of stick from his buddies in the unions. Will his week get any

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better when he faces the PM across the despatch box?

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We'll be asking if this puts you off visiting Westminster.

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And stop burying your head in the sand. Rosie Boycott tells

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politicians to wake up when it All that coming up in the next 90

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minutes of "we've never been nominated for a BAFTA award"-

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winning television. And with us for the duration, we have a couple of

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political giants. At least I think they are. We believe Iain Duncan

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Smith is the Work and Pensions Secretary, and we think Andy

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Burnham is the Shadow Health Secretary. Unfortunately, though,

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Wikipedia is down for 24 hours and the programme production staff have

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no idea who is who and what is what. With their only research engine

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down, I'm told all our researcher have gone down the pub. Anyway,

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welcome to both of you. First this morning, let's talk

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about the radical Muslim cleric Abu Qatada because yesterday, the

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European Court of Human Rights blocked the Government's attempt to

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depart Mr Qatada back to Jordan. The militant cleric, who's been

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described as Osama Bin Laden's right-hand man in Europe, is

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currently being held at a high security prison in Worcestershire.

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By Iain Duncan Smith, the Government wants to deport him.

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I suspect public opinion wants to deport him. The Labour Party wanted

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to deport him in power, and British judges want to deport him. Why

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would we let the European Court of Human Rights stock that? Because

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whether you like it or not, and a lot of people don't like it, we are

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bound by the Convention. There is the root... It is a disappointing

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result, a deplorable individual, a supporter of terrorism, he should

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go back. I think we have the route to appeal. They are looking to see

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whether they can appeal. appeals hardly ever work. I agree.

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It is a mess. You go to the full chamber for by an appeal and

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overwhelmingly they are turned over. -- don't work. A 5% chance. Let's

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assume we lose the appeal, what do we do next? You have to keep him

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under arrest. Then go back to the European Court and say you are

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infringing his European -- human rights. We are proposing to reform

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the relationship with the convention and that is something

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the Home Secretary is bringing forward. One of the ways ahead in

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due course is to modify the way it's worked so we don't have these

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decisions. They are not living in the real world, this court, they

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are still living in a world where terrorism was an occasional affair.

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We have a very dangerous man, supporter a very, very dangerous

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people, every body in Britain wants him out, we have to find a way of

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getting this man back to where he came from and face their judicial

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process. The European Court said you can't deport people back to

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countries where there's a good chance of them being tortured. The

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British said OK, we understand that, so your government negotiated a

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deal with Jordan to get commitments from the Jordanian government that

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people would not be maltreated. Correct. Now the European Court

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says that not enough. There's a chance he may face a trial in which

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some of the evidence will have come about by torture. They have changed

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the goalposts and when they do this, this is why there's a head of steam

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against the European Court in this country now. Maybe. It is a

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disappointing result. I read it more positively perhaps than you

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have done. The court accepted those bilateral agreements between the UK

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and Jordan. They said we accept that, but if the commitment has

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been given that evidence will not be directly used in respect of Abu

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Qatada, if it had been derived from torture. What they on helpfully

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then said was that because the system over there, torture is so

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prevalent, there's some evidence that may have been gained that way,

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we can't be certain it won't be used. If I was a Home Office

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minister now, I would now go back to the Jordanians and say, give us

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a cast-iron guarantee that no evidence will be introduced derived

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from other cases that could be categorised in that way and then go

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back to the European Court and say now we have the final assurances,

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this is the route and we get a verdict. What the Government wants

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to do is set the framework so when they appeal, they have strong

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grounds to appeal. That may be one of the solutions. The judges taking

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this decision have to think again. They are extrapolating away from

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the agreement made an coming up with some kind of possible IFS and

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buts. Yesterday they also made a different judgment about the

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state's and right to hold people in prison for life. Life meaning life.

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That is a sign they are listening to public opinion and the

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representations of government. It is easy to knock the court and so

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they are hope for us, but I thought the couple have run into gave

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grounds for hope. I don't think they are listening enough. It is

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like a swallow which doesn't... They make the occasional good

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judgment. My concern and the concern of the Government and of

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your government is that too often, they make judgments like the one

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yesterday which are almost dancing on the head of a pin. We had an

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agreement with Jordan. There was plenty enough for us to have got a

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right decision from them and yet again they failed. When Abu Qatada

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was arrested, because he was thought to be plotting to blow up

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the Christmas market in Strasbourg, which is packed with people, and

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that is what they thought he was doing, he was found to have

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�175,000 in cash on him. Why has he been on welfare all these years?

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Why have taxpayer has been paying his welfare when he has �170,000 in

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cash? If he has money and capital, he will not be available for the

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income related supports. He is getting hundreds of pounds a week.

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Hundreds of pounds. I know, and the reality is we are trapped in this

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position because he is incarcerated but still living outside a prison.

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He ends up being able to be supported. This is a man with

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�175,000 and a hard working taxes of British people were paying him

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hundreds of pounds a week in welfare. Nobody would justify that.

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We are dealing with a suspected serious international terrorist.

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They get their money from a range of sources and it is not easy for

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the benefits system to track down all of the global funds he has

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access to. He was found with �175,000. These networks have

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millions at their disposal. How can the benefits system track all of

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that movement? We are dealing with a very serious individual. We are

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getting closer to getting the right result. You don't mind paying the

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welfare? I said I did. Why did you do it? Under the rules, he avoids

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the rules. The man is able to work the system to his benefit. Which is

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why we are trying to reform it. will come on to that later!

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Imagine flying from Rio and landing at Boris Island on the Thames

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Estuary. It's the stuff dreams are made of, and according to the Mayor

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of London, it's not far off reality. Support for a new airport on the

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Thames Estuary is apparently gaining increasing support from

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ministers. Here's what Boris Johnson had to say earlier this

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morning. If you're going to expand your capacity and businesses making

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that case very powerfully to the Government, George Osborne is in

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China, he understand very clearly the need to communicate with the

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big growth the economies of Asia and Latin America, if you're going

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to do that, you have to look elsewhere.

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Well, I'm now joined by Bernard Jenkin, who is the Conservative MP

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for North Essex, and the Liberal Democrat transport spokesman,

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Julian Huppert. How enthusiastic is the Prime Minister about this idea?

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I think he has come to realise that a policy of no new runways in the

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south-east will strangle London as an international city and turn

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London into an international backwater. We have one major

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airport with two runways, Heathrow, competing with Frankfurt, with

:10:10.:10:15.

three runways, Paris with three runways. We are simply going to

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lose all of that aviation business and the people who travel on those

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routes to other European countries. It would be a disaster for the UK.

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Is the Thames estuary the answer? It will take decades to build and

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that the vast cost. This will be capitalised by the private-sector,

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I have no doubt. There are three win-win Win Crew murkier. Building

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at Heathrow is not an option. This is a -- the best environmental

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option for it airport expansion in the south-east. Secondly, it will -

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- sustain London and the south-east as an international centre. Third,

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it will maintain our leadership of the aviation sector. It will take

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time, but it is the best option. win-win-Winup deal. Not in the

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slightest, this is a fantasy for Boris. It is not really a workable

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solution. We are certainly going to stay opposed to it. Most of the

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Conservatives I've spoken to have been as surprised by the sleek out

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of Number Ten. -- this league. They have been saying they are against

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it. It is not the right place from an environmental perspective. It is

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very damaging. Whether you look at the animal life or carbon dioxide.

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It is almost right next to the SS Montgomerie, a sunken Liberty ship

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with over 3,000 tonnes of munitions. If that explodes, it will be

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devastating to the whole area. You would not build a new airport quite

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next we ship that might explode. This is far off reality? The Lib

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Dems won't let this happen even if Nick Clegg allows the consultation

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to go ahead. The Department of Transport has been dedicated to the

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expansion of Heathrow and Stansted for the last 50 years. They are a

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prisoner of the vested interests, particularly the airlines and the

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operators. It is time for new thinking because Heathrow is not a

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sustainable option in the long term if we are going to remain in this.

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It is another Sujit vantage to developing the Thames estuary which

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may or may not be Boris Island. We will wait and see. Her or Bernard

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Ireland! Thank you very much. I am not worthy. But the economic

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regeneration of the Thames estuary has been a great challenge facing

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successive governments for decades. This is the great opportunity for a

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new airport to lead the regeneration of the Thames estuary.

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Do we need a new airport? The country's natural demand for air

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travel is set to expand to 260 million passengers a year. There is

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still capacity around a number of airports. We should not focus on

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just the south-east. As planes become bigger and bigger, you can

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fit more passengers on without having to build new runways or new

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terminals and having all of the damage that involves. It is not

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needed. They are run much better things we can do with that money to

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improve our connectivity. Let's connect ports with high-speed rail

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so we can move freight that way. This is simply a fantasy. Borrowers

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will talk about it quite a bit until the elections and then it

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will go very quiet. -- Boris will talk. That is rubbish. Thank you

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boats. Iain Duncan Smith, is this just the stuff dreams are made of

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all is the Government considering it? It is an idea that has been

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around a long time. We go back to Ted Heath. This sort of thing

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should have been... In principle, I think it is a very good idea to see

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whether it is feasible both environmentally and financially.

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What is clear is Heathrow as an airport, in a modern city the size

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of London, is in the wrong place. You would not put an airport there

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if you have to. We all accept London will require greater

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transport, the question is how you will manage that. The fact that the

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chancellor and prime minister have both said let's have a look at that

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means it's worth looking at. Is it worth looking at? When I heard

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about Boris Island, I thought we were putting him in exile! I

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thought Boris Johnson gave the game away on the radio this morning. He

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said my mates Dave and George have sorted it out for me. This is all

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about the London election. It is all about doing Boris a favour. To

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bring it ahead of the aviation strategy, this is not the way to do

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things. The Lib Dems are crying foul. This has to be taken with a

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massive pinch of salt. What about Heathrow? We saw the case for the

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expansion of Heathrow and the Government set its face against

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that, but it has set its face against this. They said there

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should not be an expansion of capacity in the south-east. If this

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is true, it is a massive U-turn anyway because they have set their

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face against Heathrow and if they are doing this, I don't know, it is

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in chaos. I it is straight forward. It is an idea that is worth looking

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at. Her but will it ever happen? There's every possibility it will

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providing all of those features stack up. In any big project, the

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reality is, as Bernard said earlier, London is one of the big global

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cities and yet we have a very diverse area of airports. What does

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it do to Heathrow? You have got an airport. There are jobs. You get

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nothing but problems right now coming out of Heathrow. You set

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your face against that. You guys work for an extended run way which

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would cause massive environmental problems. What about the people who

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live in the Medway towns? reality of this is that it has to

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be taken into consideration. But it is worth thinking about. It is

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difficult for people who live near Heathrow, but most people who went

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to live venue they were living near a big airport. You don't want to

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carry on spreading a big airports. You are spreading the misery.

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may be a way of consolidating so it is worth looking at. You guys did

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:16:42.:16:48.

not use your imagination very much. It has been a topsy-turvy week for

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Iain Duncan-Smith's welfare group. The Government faced stiff

:16:52.:16:56.

opposition from the Peers and was defeated in the Lords three times

:16:56.:17:00.

last week. This week the Government is getting tougher.

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The grand old Secretary of State, Ian Duncan-Smith has been marching

:17:05.:17:09.

his troops up the hill of welfare reform. Last year it total spending

:17:09.:17:15.

on benefits and pensions was �201 billion. 52 billion of that was

:17:15.:17:20.

spent on benefits of people of working age. He has come under

:17:20.:17:26.

attack from the House of Lords. Last week Labour and crossbench

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Peers inflicted three separate wounds on the welfare bill,

:17:29.:17:32.

rejecting plans to limit payments to those with serious illnesses and

:17:32.:17:39.

to young people. Last night the Cabinet defeated another amendment

:17:39.:17:42.

from the former paralympian Tanni Grey-Thompson on changes to

:17:42.:17:46.

disability benefits. Disability Living Allowance is being replaced

:17:47.:17:49.

by the Personal Independence Payment, which involves a more

:17:49.:17:53.

rigorous assessment. The Government says its plan will cut the

:17:53.:17:58.

disability costs by 20%. Baroness Grey-Thompson had wanted ministers

:17:58.:18:03.

to hold trials before replacing the delay, but this proposal was

:18:03.:18:07.

defeated. But Mr Duncan-Smith is not out of the woods yet, the bill

:18:07.:18:11.

is back in front of the Lords on Monday when they will debate his

:18:11.:18:18.

plans for an annual cap. We are now joined by the former

:18:18.:18:22.

paralympian and crossbench peer, Tanni Grey-Thompson. Welcome to the

:18:22.:18:28.

Daily Politics. Thank you. Do you believe there are some people are

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currently getting DLA that probably do not need it, and there is a case

:18:33.:18:41.

for a tougher assessment? I think benefit fraud is only 0.5%, so I

:18:41.:18:44.

think there are probably some people who are pulling the wall and

:18:45.:18:50.

I think there is a tiny minority of people who are right on the edge.

:18:50.:18:53.

Figures released on Monday show half a million disabled people

:18:53.:18:57.

might lose in the transition to the Personal Independence Payment. I

:18:57.:19:02.

worry about them because we might be making short-term payments, and

:19:02.:19:08.

that is why I wanted an in depth trial, but by removing it at the

:19:08.:19:12.

lower rate, we could be pushing them into having much higher care

:19:12.:19:17.

needs. They could be putting a bigger bill on the NHS. The aim of

:19:17.:19:21.

saving money might cost us more in the long run and that is a real

:19:21.:19:26.

worry to me. Since you can get delay without a medical evaluation

:19:26.:19:31.

and once you get it, you get it effectively forever, why would you

:19:31.:19:37.

think that fraud is so low? I think it is a complex form to fill in. I

:19:37.:19:41.

had to fill one in and I have been reassessed, not recently, but a

:19:41.:19:46.

while ago. Come pennies make money out of helping you. I disagree with

:19:46.:19:52.

that. That is not a positive way forward. DLA is by no means perfect,

:19:52.:19:57.

but it helps a huge number of disabled people with the recognised

:19:57.:20:01.

extra costs of being disabled. Public transport is not great. I

:20:01.:20:07.

can only drive an automatic car which is more expensive. It costs

:20:07.:20:12.

disabled people more or to be in work and there is a great deal of

:20:12.:20:16.

discrimination against disabled people. Delay is kind of buying

:20:16.:20:21.

people's rights. I would love to be in a position where we do not have

:20:21.:20:28.

to buy that at all. You have got the Secretary of State here. What

:20:28.:20:34.

would you like to say to him? it right for disabled people. We

:20:34.:20:37.

hear an awful lot about the people with the broadest shoulders will

:20:37.:20:41.

bear the brunt of austerity and cuts and I am not feeling too many

:20:41.:20:48.

impinge manse and things that I am experiencing. But I am getting

:20:48.:20:52.

hundreds of e-mails from disabled people and organisations who are

:20:52.:20:56.

terrified they will be ghettoise and pushed out of society and there

:20:56.:21:01.

is nowhere for them to go. We need reform, but we have to be convinced

:21:01.:21:05.

this is the right reform and I do not believe it is. What do you say

:21:05.:21:11.

to that? First of all the Personal Independence Payment will be making

:21:11.:21:15.

sure that those who need the benefit, which is based on care and

:21:15.:21:20.

mobility, they will still remain as criteria. Those who need the

:21:20.:21:24.

benefit will get it. We will see more people with more severe

:21:24.:21:27.

conditions get better level of settlements, so people will gain as

:21:27.:21:33.

well as lose. Do you accept only a small number of people are cheating

:21:33.:21:40.

the system? There is a different way of looking at this. Fraud

:21:40.:21:44.

represents a certain amount of money, but there is another area as

:21:44.:21:50.

well. Because in DLA people get 70% for their lifetime and I never

:21:50.:21:54.

looked at again and most are never looked at in the first place, what

:21:54.:21:59.

happens is there has been a whole series of overpayments, roughly

:21:59.:22:04.

about �600 million. It is a significant amount of money that is

:22:04.:22:08.

going to people who we think do not need as much or who do not need

:22:08.:22:12.

that money. Yet others inside DLA are legitimately complaining they

:22:12.:22:17.

do not get enough to support their care needs and their mobility. The

:22:17.:22:22.

purpose of the reform, which we are consulting on, will continue to

:22:22.:22:27.

consult on, are all about saying the balance of this is to make sure

:22:27.:22:32.

we have a sustainable allowance for people who are disabled. She quite

:22:32.:22:35.

rightly said there is discrimination and people take a

:22:35.:22:41.

dim view of people getting benefits, but half of the problem is their

:22:41.:22:45.

view is there are people who are getting it who should not. Personal

:22:45.:22:49.

independence payments will be able to say, we have got a system which

:22:49.:22:53.

is very robust, which will give to people who need the right money and

:22:53.:22:57.

now you can respect that benefit. That respect will be required and

:22:58.:23:01.

you can say, I do not mind giving my money because it is going to the

:23:01.:23:07.

right people. That is the balance. Your response? I would like to ask

:23:07.:23:14.

about the half-a-million people who might lose out through the process.

:23:14.:23:18.

What about these have a million people if we really find they are

:23:18.:23:22.

losing out if they are being discriminated against, if they are

:23:22.:23:27.

losing their jobs? Will they be allowed to have some support.

:23:27.:23:30.

point about the half-a-million losing out his we also do not talk

:23:30.:23:35.

about those who will be gaining from this. Well half-a-million lose

:23:35.:23:40.

out? If they are not eligible under the criteria. If their condition

:23:40.:23:44.

changes, if it gets worse, they will get a higher level of payment.

:23:44.:23:51.

The criteria that we believe that level of people are not necessary

:23:51.:23:57.

in on DLA, we believe there are others support areas for them. They

:23:57.:24:02.

may be eligible for that. DLA right now if we do nothing to it is set

:24:03.:24:08.

to grow to well over 2 million. The cost will spiral. It is already

:24:08.:24:15.

over 12 billion. It is not being respected. I have one question here

:24:15.:24:19.

because I have got and the sitting on my left. The last Government

:24:19.:24:24.

wanted to reform delay and they have an opportunity to support our

:24:24.:24:28.

reforms. Yet again they voted against them last night not saying

:24:28.:24:32.

what they would do in their place. The Labour opposition is to decide

:24:32.:24:37.

whether it is in support of welfare reform or whether it is going to

:24:37.:24:43.

cop out. We support the case for reform and we have said that. The

:24:43.:24:47.

public are with you when it comes to tackling fraud, waste, or giving

:24:47.:24:53.

people benefits who do not need them. But Tanni Grey-Thompson makes

:24:53.:24:57.

an eloquent case. You go beyond that line and you take help away

:24:57.:25:02.

from people who desperately need it. I am hearing those fears and

:25:02.:25:07.

concerns in my surgery. From my own policy perspective, you are a man

:25:07.:25:12.

of compassion and integrity, how can you possibly take money off

:25:12.:25:17.

them when people are recovering from cancer, you cannot take a time

:25:17.:25:21.

limit for that. How can you give them the extra worry of worrying

:25:21.:25:26.

about their benefits. ESA was a benefit you left behind and you

:25:26.:25:30.

already allowed for cancer sufferers to have it taken off

:25:30.:25:35.

completely. We have brought cancer patients in on a number of areas.

:25:35.:25:40.

You have overturned the Lords. you take ESA and say, we will take

:25:40.:25:44.

you out on your condition, why can't you do it on every other

:25:44.:25:50.

condition? It is different. Cancer takes people out of the workplace

:25:50.:25:55.

and give them lots of extra costs. Car parking, the hospital, the

:25:55.:26:00.

stress. That is over the line. would love to let us continue, but

:26:00.:26:05.

we have got Prime Minister's Questions and thank you to Tanni

:26:05.:26:09.

Grey-Thompson for joining us. You through a little fire into our

:26:09.:26:14.

studio, come back again. Spare a thought for the poor old

:26:14.:26:18.

Education Secretary. First he suggests an ace and should give the

:26:18.:26:25.

Queen and new royal yacht to lift our spirits. But then he should bat

:26:25.:26:28.

said it should be privately funded. Then he finds out his plan to send

:26:28.:26:33.

a copy of the Ken Jones Bible with a forward by himself to every

:26:33.:26:37.

school and the country has fallen by the wayside as well. He had to

:26:37.:26:40.

find private funding for that. Michael, if you are watching, there

:26:40.:26:46.

is one thing the Queen and every school in the country needs, a

:26:46.:26:50.

Daily Politics mug. If you are clever enough you could win 23,000

:26:50.:26:54.

of these and send one to every school in the country. That would

:26:54.:27:00.

take some time. We have only got about 10. Is he sending these

:27:00.:27:06.

Bibles to everybody who can pay for a job? Everyone can pray they will

:27:06.:27:13.

never have a Labour Government again. We will remind you how to

:27:13.:27:23.
:27:23.:27:32.

enter in a minute, but let's see if Cynthia Diane pain. 193. The pain

:27:32.:27:42.
:27:42.:27:49.

# The only way is up, baby, you and me now. # We have been invaded by

:27:50.:27:56.

some people who we hope to be removing very shortly.

:27:56.:28:06.
:28:06.:28:11.

# You had to sneak into my room just to read my diary. # For a

:28:11.:28:18.

stock # Every time I see you, something happens to me.

:28:18.:28:26.

Like a chain reaction, between you and me.

:28:26.:28:35.

My heart starts missing a beat every time. #.

:28:35.:28:39.

How youthful those politicians looked in that film. To be in with

:28:39.:28:44.

a chance of winning a Daily Politics Macca centre answer to our

:28:44.:28:54.
:28:54.:29:03.

It is coming up to midday, let's take a look at Big Ben. It is a

:29:03.:29:13.
:29:13.:29:13.

very gloomy day in London. There is a good Scottish word for that.

:29:13.:29:18.

does that mean? Yes, Prime Minister's questions is on its way

:29:18.:29:23.

and that is not all. Nick Robinson is here. We will do it with

:29:23.:29:29.

subtitles in future. That should happen every week. I am pretty sure

:29:29.:29:39.

Mr Miliband will agree with that. PM queues is a test of his

:29:39.:29:43.

leadership. The year has been defined by the questions about his

:29:43.:29:48.

leadership. But it was just before Christmas when I got some flak from

:29:49.:29:53.

people in the Labour Party because I suggested he had had a rough time.

:29:53.:29:57.

That was the moment in which people in his own party started to say

:29:57.:30:02.

they were worried. I think he wants to get back to good, solid, raising

:30:02.:30:09.

the issue questions. I suspect his advisers will say keep it low-key.

:30:09.:30:16.

It is about not losing, but the intriguing question for Cameron is

:30:16.:30:20.

does he try and tease him about Labour's economic policy or do the

:30:20.:30:23.

Tories take the view it might be working for Labour and avoid it

:30:23.:30:29.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others

:30:29.:30:36.

and I shall have further such meetings later today. The prime

:30:36.:30:40.

minister will be aware of the very strong uptake of Academy Schools in

:30:40.:30:44.

Gloucester, but is he aware of the enormous differences and funding

:30:44.:30:48.

which put Stowe School is at the bottom of the league table in terms

:30:48.:30:53.

of the lax a funding? I welcome the Government's move towards a

:30:53.:30:57.

national funding formula, but will he look at the serious situation in

:30:57.:31:01.

Gloucester in regards to those schools? Who my honourable friend

:31:01.:31:05.

is quite right, we need to sort out this problem even before looking at

:31:05.:31:09.

national funding formula. It is a funding formula we inherited and I

:31:09.:31:13.

believe it is flawed and that is why we are reforming it. The

:31:13.:31:17.

Secretary of State has met with Academy heads in his constituency

:31:17.:31:21.

and will discuss with him how we can deal with this problem. The

:31:21.:31:25.

growing evidence is that Academy Schools are not just good for the

:31:25.:31:29.

pupils who go, but by raising standards and aspirations in those

:31:29.:31:33.

areas, they are raising the standards of all schools.

:31:33.:31:43.
:31:43.:31:47.

Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister told us that unemployment would fall in

:31:47.:31:53.

each year of this Parliament. Today, unemployment rose for the 6th month

:31:53.:31:58.

in a row. Does he think it has anything to do with his government?

:31:58.:32:01.

The Government takes absolute responsibility for everything that

:32:02.:32:07.

happens in our economy and I take responsibility for that. Any

:32:07.:32:10.

increase in unemployment is disappointing and it is obviously a

:32:10.:32:14.

tragedy for the person who becomes unemployed and can lead to real

:32:14.:32:18.

difficulty for that family and that is why we are taking so much action

:32:18.:32:23.

to help people to get back into work. If you look at the figures

:32:23.:32:27.

today, it is noteworthy that while the increase in unemployment is

:32:27.:32:31.

usually unwelcome, there's still an increase in the number of people

:32:31.:32:36.

employed, another 18,000 people in work. That shows we need more

:32:36.:32:39.

private sector employment, you need to move further and faster on that

:32:39.:32:45.

agenda. It is also noteworthy that there's a small decrease in long-

:32:45.:32:50.

term unemployment and I hope that shows that schemes like the work

:32:50.:32:53.

programme we are introducing are beginning to have an effect. But we

:32:53.:32:57.

need them to go further and faster, there's not one ounce of

:32:57.:33:00.

complacency in this government, we will do everything we can to get

:33:00.:33:05.

people back to work. Doesn't the Prime Minister understand, when he

:33:05.:33:12.

boasts about rising employment, it shows how part of touchy is? -- out

:33:12.:33:18.

of touch. In some parts of London, 100 people are chasing three

:33:18.:33:23.

vacancies. That is the situation people are facing. Can he confirm

:33:23.:33:26.

that under his policies, far from things getting better over the

:33:27.:33:32.

coming year, he expects things to get worse and unemployment to rise

:33:32.:33:37.

to 2.8 million? Forecasts are no longer set out by the Government,

:33:37.:33:42.

they are set out by the Independent office of a budget responsibility.

:33:42.:33:47.

Unlike in his day, these forecasts are not fixed and fiddled by

:33:47.:33:52.

ministers, they are set out by independent economists. What the

:33:52.:33:55.

Government's responsibility is to do everything we can to help people

:33:55.:33:59.

into work. That is why we have the work programme that is helping 3

:33:59.:34:04.

million people, the youth contract that will get a private sector jobs

:34:04.:34:09.

for 160,000 young people, that is why we have work experience for

:34:09.:34:14.

250,000 young people and half of those are off benefits within two

:34:14.:34:19.

months. That is 20 times better value than the Future Jobs Fund.

:34:19.:34:23.

There's no boasting about anything. What we have is growth in the

:34:23.:34:27.

private sector, contraction in the public sector, but Lee need to get

:34:27.:34:31.

the economy moving and key to that is having low interest rates that

:34:31.:34:36.

his plans would put at risk. doesn't seem to understand. The

:34:36.:34:40.

reason the OBR figures matter is that they show over the next year,

:34:40.:34:44.

unemployment will get worse not better on his policies. Nothing he

:34:44.:34:50.

can say can deny that. That long list of policies, according to the

:34:50.:34:54.

OBR, will make no difference. Let's talk about young people. In the

:34:54.:35:01.

last year, can he confirm that we have now 147,000 young people out

:35:01.:35:05.

of work for more than six months? That is double what it was a year

:35:05.:35:12.

ago. An increase of 100 to descend. Why has he allowed it to happen? --

:35:12.:35:18.

102%. Her over the last year, unemployment amongst young people,

:35:18.:35:22.

measured by the Independent Labour Organisation, the proper way of

:35:22.:35:27.

measuring, is up by 7%. It is not the 40% increase we had under

:35:27.:35:31.

Labour, but it is far too high. We need to help those young people

:35:31.:35:35.

into work and that is what our programmes are doing. Let me make

:35:35.:35:39.

this point because it's important. There's a fundamental difference

:35:39.:35:42.

between the way this government measures youth unemployment and the

:35:42.:35:48.

way the last government did. This is important. His government

:35:48.:35:52.

counted young people who were on jobseeker's allowance but in any

:35:52.:35:56.

form the scheme as not unemployed. This government is saying until you

:35:56.:36:00.

get a permanent job, we will measure you as unemployed. That is

:36:00.:36:04.

not complacent, that is frank and straightforward and what we never

:36:04.:36:14.
:36:14.:36:15.

got from them. It really is back to the 1980s. A Tory government... A

:36:15.:36:25.

A Tory government blaming unemployment on the figures. No

:36:25.:36:30.

wonder he has rehired Lord Young! The employment secretary in the

:36:30.:36:34.

1980s. On long-term youth unemployment, he's wrong on the

:36:35.:36:39.

facts. Long-term youth unemployment, which has that scarring effect on

:36:39.:36:43.

young people, desperate for work, out of work for more than six

:36:43.:36:48.

months, that has doubled. That has doubled in the last year. However

:36:48.:36:53.

much he twists and turns, can he confirm that central fact? It is up

:36:53.:36:58.

by 102% -- 102%. Love I have explained the figures. If you look

:36:59.:37:02.

at the number of young people out of work for longer than 12 months,

:37:02.:37:07.

that number is starting to go down. That is not nearly enough, far more

:37:07.:37:10.

needs to be done, but that is what the work programme is all about and

:37:10.:37:15.

that is what he needs to understand. There's a context. If we want to

:37:15.:37:19.

get unemployment Dell, we have to keep interest rates down and we've

:37:19.:37:23.

had own reminder on what happens if you don't have a plan to get on top

:37:23.:37:27.

of your deficit and get your economy moving. That is what he

:37:27.:37:31.

doesn't understand. What you have is a government that is absolutely

:37:31.:37:35.

clear about its plans and an opposition that has absolutely no

:37:35.:37:40.

idea. Last year he marched against the cuts, now he tells us he

:37:40.:37:46.

accepts the cuts. And yet... And yet today he is telling us he wants

:37:46.:37:51.

to spend more and borrow more. He is so incompetent, he can't even do

:37:51.:38:01.
:38:01.:38:02.

a U-turn properly. Her he is simply... Mr Speaker... The House

:38:02.:38:11.

must try to calm down. Ed Miliband. Mr Speaker, I know he doesn't want

:38:11.:38:14.

to talk about the young people out of work in this country, because

:38:14.:38:19.

he's embarrassed by his record on what is happening, but he owes it

:38:19.:38:23.

to them to tell the facts as they are about what is happening to them.

:38:23.:38:27.

I come back to this point. The prime minister said that long-term

:38:27.:38:31.

unemployment among young people is going down. It is not going down,

:38:31.:38:37.

it is going up. He mentions the work programme. He introduced it

:38:37.:38:42.

with great fanfare in June. What has happened to long-term youth

:38:42.:38:46.

unemployment since he introduced his work programme? Let me give him

:38:46.:38:51.

the figures. I will give him the figures exactly. There are far too

:38:51.:38:57.

many young people who are long-term unemployed. There are 246,000 young

:38:57.:39:02.

people unemployed for over a year. That is down 11,000 on the last

:39:02.:39:07.

quarter. That is not enough, we want to do more, but it is because

:39:07.:39:12.

we have the work programme, because we have used contract, because we

:39:12.:39:17.

have 400,000 apprenticeships, because we have got 250,000 people

:39:17.:39:20.

going into work experience, we make a difference. Why doesn't he come

:39:20.:39:25.

up with something constructive instead of knocking everybody down?

:39:25.:39:35.
:39:35.:39:42.

I will tell him what he should do. Yeah. Yeah. Because wide is

:39:42.:39:47.

unemployment rising? Why is unemployment rising? Because he is

:39:47.:39:53.

cutting too far and too fast. It is his record, however much he twists

:39:53.:39:57.

and turns, it is his record, that is why unemployment is going up.

:39:57.:40:02.

What we have is women's unemployment are the highest since

:40:02.:40:05.

the last time there was a Tory government. Youth unemployment the

:40:05.:40:08.

highest since the last time there was a Tory government. And

:40:08.:40:12.

unemployment since the last time there was a Tory government. Isn't

:40:12.:40:16.

the truth, the defining characteristic of this government

:40:16.:40:19.

is it stands aside and does nothing as thousands of people find

:40:20.:40:26.

themselves unemployed? Mr Speaker, to be Fairford -- to the honourable

:40:26.:40:30.

gentleman, he does actually changed course every day. He is an expert

:40:30.:40:37.

in changing course. Labour's Shadow Chancellor said two days ago, my

:40:37.:40:40.

starting point is we are going to have to keep all the cuts. That is

:40:40.:40:45.

what he said. Then Labour's deputy leader said yesterday, we are not

:40:45.:40:49.

accepting the Government's cuts, we are totally opposed and we are

:40:49.:40:52.

fighting them. He is flip-flopping on a daily basis. No wonder

:40:52.:41:00.

Labour's founder... At a time when the nation needs strong political

:41:00.:41:04.

leadership, Labour offers nothing. The Pru prisoners pragmatic

:41:04.:41:08.

approach to wealth and Enterprise have all gone. Instead there is a

:41:08.:41:12.

vision and leadership vacuum. What total adequate to estimate of what

:41:12.:41:22.

My right honourable friend will be aware that I recently raised the

:41:22.:41:27.

case of my late constituent Mr Martin Pratt with the Armed forces

:41:27.:41:30.

Minister, as also he will be aware of the excellent fighting fit

:41:30.:41:35.

report written by my honourable friend the member for South West

:41:35.:41:38.

Wiltshire dealing with post- traumatic stress disorder among

:41:38.:41:43.

veterans. Due to the stigma often attached to mental illness, many

:41:43.:41:46.

veterans wait years before seeking help. I hope my right honourable

:41:46.:41:49.

friend can tell the House what plans the Government has in this

:41:49.:41:54.

area. My honourable friend is entirely right to raise this issue.

:41:54.:41:58.

The mental scars that people who served this country often receive

:41:58.:42:02.

can be every bit as deep as the physical scars and it is not

:42:02.:42:06.

something we have always accepted and understood properly. That is

:42:06.:42:10.

why the report by my honourable friend for the member for South

:42:10.:42:13.

West Wiltshire is so important, as someone with real experience and

:42:13.:42:17.

understanding of this. We have implemented almost all of its

:42:17.:42:22.

recommendations, we have launched the 24 hour helpline, we are

:42:22.:42:26.

introducing the enhanced mental health assessments for service

:42:26.:42:28.

personnel and the veteran month -- veterans information service we

:42:28.:42:33.

hope to get up and running in April this year. Her with a tragic

:42:33.:42:37.

accident involving the cruise ship Costa Concordia, and with the 50

:42:37.:42:43.

plus liners the same size or bigger which will visit the dock of green

:42:43.:42:47.

knock on the Clyde in the coming months and years ahead, does the

:42:47.:42:50.

Prime Minister still think it is the correct decision to close the

:42:50.:42:54.

Clyde coastguards decision? Good God! Her the case in Italy is

:42:54.:42:58.

clearly tragic and our hearts should go out of the people who

:42:58.:43:02.

have lost loved ones, people from countries across the world. We need

:43:02.:43:06.

to wait and see what the exact cause of the accident was before we

:43:06.:43:10.

jump to conclusions about any changes in regulations or other

:43:10.:43:13.

things that need to be changed. If there are changes that need to be

:43:13.:43:18.

made, including to the issue he raises, we will look at it of

:43:18.:43:24.

course. The Prime Minister has very kindly undertaken to bring forward

:43:24.:43:27.

a comprehensive water bill early in the next parliamentary session.

:43:27.:43:32.

Will he end the uncertainty for water customers and industry alike

:43:32.:43:36.

by publishing the draft Bill now so we can have proper parliamentary

:43:36.:43:42.

scrutiny? High can say to right honourable friend that we will be

:43:42.:43:46.

publishing a draft water bill for pre-legislative scrutiny in the

:43:46.:43:51.

coming months. As she knows, there are many important parts to this

:43:51.:43:54.

water bill can't one part that stands up is the prommers we have

:43:54.:43:59.

made and the funding we have supplied to help cut water bills in

:43:59.:44:03.

the south-west from �50 in 20th April 13. This has dresses and

:44:03.:44:08.

historic unfairness where people have been a south-west felt they

:44:08.:44:18.
:44:18.:44:18.

had paid unfair charges to provide clean beaches. In America, six

:44:18.:44:21.

directors from the bail dealt Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae company

:44:21.:44:26.

have been taken to court for gross mismanagement. The FSA in this

:44:26.:44:29.

country say they can't bring enforcement action against the

:44:29.:44:34.

Royal Bank of Scotland because they don't have legal tender. Will the

:44:34.:44:40.

prime minister consider introducing a legal sanction of strict

:44:40.:44:41.

liability into his draft Financial Services Bill so those responsible

:44:41.:44:45.

for the banking crisis will be taken to task? After all, we are

:44:45.:44:47.

all in this together. honourable gentleman makes an

:44:47.:44:51.

important point and the whole point about overhauling the financial

:44:51.:44:54.

services regulation is it gives us the opportunity to look around the

:44:54.:44:58.

rest of the world, see who has tougher penalties and work out

:44:58.:45:02.

whether we can introduce them to our system. That is why we will

:45:02.:45:05.

introduce this bill with a major overhaul of how the FSA and the

:45:05.:45:08.

Bank of England work and deal with the regulars Tree system that was

:45:08.:45:18.

A year ago the Prime Minister told me the reason for the new health

:45:18.:45:25.

bill was, simply this country does not have a European levels of

:45:25.:45:30.

success. Now we know that that is not the case, will the Prime

:45:30.:45:33.

Minister pleased shelf the disruptive Bill which is struggling

:45:33.:45:39.

in another place, go back to the coalition agreement and built up

:45:39.:45:44.

from there? I have great respect for my honourable friend, but I do

:45:44.:45:48.

not agree with him. With the help build a huge exercise was

:45:48.:45:52.

undertaken which the Deputy Prime Minister and I both played quite a

:45:52.:45:58.

large role in in listening to health professionals, nurses, to

:45:58.:46:01.

understand what they most wanted to see in the NHS reform bill and that

:46:01.:46:07.

is what we are delivering. He says it is not the case we have outcomes

:46:07.:46:11.

that are less than some parts of Europe. I am afraid it is the case.

:46:11.:46:16.

In some cases we could be doing a lot better. To argue the case the

:46:16.:46:22.

NHS simply needs money and not reform, I do not believe is right.

:46:22.:46:25.

In the north-east unemployment amongst women is rising at twice

:46:25.:46:30.

the rate of men. Where does the Prime Minister think the women's

:46:30.:46:35.

place is? In the home, the workplace or the JobCentre? I want

:46:35.:46:40.

to see many more women have the opportunity to be in the workplace.

:46:40.:46:44.

What you have seen in the figures, of course there is a disappointing

:46:44.:46:49.

increase in unemployment amongst women, but since the election there

:46:49.:46:54.

are 59,000 more women in work today than there were at the time of the

:46:54.:46:59.

last election. That is why we are boosting childcare to help women

:46:59.:47:04.

into work. We are introducing through universal credit support

:47:04.:47:10.

for all women with childcare for work and by lifting over 1 million

:47:10.:47:15.

people out of tax, the majority of whom are women, that helps women

:47:15.:47:22.

enter the workforce. That is what I want to save. Last week, I met a

:47:22.:47:28.

couple in Redditch who were appalled that a family unless were

:47:28.:47:34.

getting benefits than they were and they were working full-time

:47:34.:47:38.

questing knight does he think it is fair? Let me say this about the

:47:38.:47:42.

benefit cap. We owe it to people who work hard and pay their tactics

:47:42.:47:52.
:47:52.:47:53.

to make -- taxes, that it is fair. You would have to earn �35,000 in

:47:54.:47:57.

order to achieve a certain standard of living and I believe the

:47:57.:48:03.

benefits cap is fair and that is why we are going to introduce one.

:48:03.:48:09.

Some of the most vulnerable people in our society, cancer and heart

:48:09.:48:13.

patients, will be financially penalised as a result of the

:48:13.:48:17.

measures going through the Lords. Is it any wonder people say it is

:48:17.:48:23.

the same old Tories and the Tories are the nasty party? I do not

:48:23.:48:27.

accept what the honourable gentleman says. The whole point

:48:27.:48:29.

about employment and support allowance is there are two groups.

:48:29.:48:34.

There are those who cannot work and need help and many people will go

:48:34.:48:38.

into that group and were received that benefit for us long as they

:48:38.:48:42.

need it. If you look at what we have said and look at the report,

:48:42.:48:48.

there will be more cancer sufferers getting benefits and fewer people

:48:48.:48:51.

facing the face-to-face interview. He shakes his head and should look

:48:51.:48:58.

at the evidence before asking the question. I was shocked to discover

:48:58.:49:03.

that mainstream, terrestrial television carries adverts for

:49:03.:49:09.

bingo at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, 35 hours and 55 minutes each week

:49:09.:49:14.

is dedicated to live casino and betting Gaming. It has been

:49:14.:49:20.

classified as Tele shopping. At a time when there are trillions of

:49:20.:49:24.

pounds worth of personal debt in this country and we are encouraging

:49:24.:49:27.

people to be moderate in their expectations, with the Prime

:49:28.:49:32.

Minister protect consumers Colored children and the vulnerable from

:49:32.:49:41.

this kind of activity? Order, order. The question was too long.

:49:42.:49:44.

honourable lady raises an important issue about gambling advertisements

:49:44.:49:49.

on television. I am in favour of the regulation and trying to allow

:49:49.:49:55.

businesses to get on and succeed. Betting advertising and gambling

:49:55.:49:59.

programmes were not permitted until the last Government allowed them.

:49:59.:50:03.

They are regulated by Ofcom and the Advertising Standards Authority.

:50:04.:50:09.

But it is not just a question of regulation, it is the question of

:50:09.:50:13.

responsibility for those companies concerned. If you enjoy watching a

:50:14.:50:19.

football match, you see quite aggressive advertisements on telly.

:50:19.:50:21.

The companies have to ask themselves whether they are

:50:21.:50:27.

behaving responsibly. On the subject of gambling in Hackney we

:50:27.:50:32.

have 90 bookies, three times the national average. Will the Prime

:50:32.:50:36.

Minister listened to the debate that took place yesterday and

:50:36.:50:40.

instruct his ministers to support the private member's bill before

:50:40.:50:43.

the size which would give local authorities more planning powers

:50:43.:50:47.

over bookies? I will look at the debate she mentions and look at the

:50:47.:50:56.

ideas in it. We are all for giving local authorities greater powers.

:50:56.:51:01.

Will the Prime Minister agree with me that in this 30th ear of the

:51:01.:51:05.

Falklands War or the actions of the Argentine Government are wholly

:51:05.:51:10.

deplorable? Will he remind Argentina that they lost the

:51:10.:51:14.

Falklands War and it is up to the Falkland dares to determine their

:51:14.:51:21.

own future? First of all, it is very important we commemorate the

:51:21.:51:27.

Falklands War on this year, the 30th anniversary, and we remember

:51:27.:51:31.

all those who served and those who gave their lives and did not come

:51:31.:51:36.

home, we should remember all those people this year. We are clear that

:51:36.:51:40.

the future of the Falkland Islands is a matter for the people

:51:40.:51:44.

themselves. If they want to remain part of the United Kingdom, they

:51:44.:51:50.

should be able to do so. I am determined we should make sure our

:51:50.:51:54.

defence and everything else is in order, which is why the National

:51:54.:51:59.

Security Council discussed this issue yesterday. We support the

:51:59.:52:03.

Falkland Islanders right to self- determination. But the Argentinians

:52:03.:52:08.

have been saying I would argue is far more like colonialism. These

:52:08.:52:12.

people want to remain British and the Argentinians want them to do

:52:12.:52:22.
:52:22.:52:23.

something else. Hear, hear. We have seen a rise in unemployment to data

:52:23.:52:29.

over 3000 in my constituency, a 16% increase in the past year. When

:52:29.:52:34.

does the Prime Minister expect unemployment to start falling?

:52:34.:52:38.

forecast is set out by the Office of Budget Responsibility and it is

:52:38.:52:42.

for them to make the forecasts and they expect unemployment to be

:52:42.:52:48.

lower at the end of this Parliament and for implore met -- and plummet

:52:48.:52:52.

to be higher. We are doing everything we can to help the

:52:52.:52:57.

constituents into work. The apprenticeship schemes, the work

:52:57.:53:01.

experience, and we are keeping interest rates low so that our

:53:01.:53:11.
:53:11.:53:12.

economy can grow. Closed questions. Number 10, Mr Speaker.

:53:12.:53:18.

honourable lady raises an important issue about the working time

:53:18.:53:22.

directive and its effect on the NHS. Nobody wants to go back to the time

:53:22.:53:28.

when junior doctors were working 90 hours a week, but we have all seen

:53:28.:53:31.

in our constituencies that the working time directive has had a

:53:31.:53:35.

bad effect on the NHS and particularly on training programmes

:53:35.:53:39.

for junior doctors and that is why the Government is discussing this

:53:39.:53:43.

issue with the Royal Colleges and others to make sure we have

:53:43.:53:48.

flexibility. I thanked the Prime Minister for his answer. Does he

:53:48.:53:52.

share widespread concerns coming from the medical profession that

:53:52.:53:57.

whilst we wait for lengthy EU processes, where it has not been

:53:57.:54:00.

decided what they are going to discuss, we are seeing a critical

:54:01.:54:09.

undermining of junior doctors? We are seeing a roach and of the Peter

:54:09.:54:12.

professionalism and putting patient care and patient lives at risks.

:54:12.:54:17.

What steps can he take to make sure we sort this out quickly? This has

:54:17.:54:21.

got nothing to do with the single market. This has got to do with how

:54:21.:54:26.

we run our health service and particularly when it has an effect

:54:26.:54:30.

on training programmes, often in rural areas where we do not have

:54:30.:54:35.

large hospitals. What we can do is the Health and the business

:54:35.:54:39.

secretaries are committed to revising the directed at an EU

:54:39.:54:44.

level to deliver the best, safest service to patients and will work

:54:44.:54:49.

urgently to bring that about. Denis MacShane. Is the Prime

:54:49.:54:54.

Minister aware that every single medical problem at the hospital in

:54:54.:55:00.

my constituency is related to weekend working by exhausted at

:55:00.:55:05.

junior doctors? Far from this director have been a problem, it is

:55:05.:55:10.

a solution to the fact we have had far too many exhausted doctors in

:55:10.:55:17.

charge of patients. I do not doubt, well, in fact, I do doubt, what the

:55:17.:55:21.

honourable gentleman says. I cannot believe every problem is down to

:55:21.:55:27.

that. The local hospital in my constituency in Chipping Norton was

:55:27.:55:31.

threatened with massive downgrading partly because of the working-time

:55:31.:55:35.

directive because they could not supply the training modules for

:55:35.:55:38.

junior doctors. This seemed a classic example of the card being

:55:38.:55:43.

put in front of the horse. We have to determine what hospitals we want

:55:43.:55:51.

and then thinking about the working models. I welcome the announcement

:55:51.:55:54.

of closer co-operation between financial centres in Hong Kong and

:55:54.:56:00.

London. Does the Prime Minister agree this helps highlight the

:56:00.:56:03.

opportunities for trade in Asia and the importance of promoting this

:56:03.:56:07.

country to the commitment of free trade and showing this country is

:56:07.:56:12.

open for business? My honourable friend makes a vitally important

:56:12.:56:17.

point. Clearly the markets in Europe are going to be difficult.

:56:17.:56:21.

We are seeing a freezing effect across the European Union, but the

:56:21.:56:24.

rest of the world economy is growing and we need to get out

:56:24.:56:29.

there and sell to those markets. Exports to China were up by 20%

:56:29.:56:35.

last year. The arrangement the Chancellor has come to, which will

:56:35.:56:38.

make London one of the great trading centres, is one important

:56:38.:56:45.

breakthrough. Could the Prime Minister clarify what the coalition

:56:45.:56:50.

Government's position is on inheritance tax? In my constituency

:56:50.:56:59.

we have received, if the Tories were governing alone, it would be

:56:59.:57:02.

cutting inheritance for millionaires and they would pay for

:57:02.:57:08.

it by reducing public spending even more, is that true? Deposition on

:57:08.:57:15.

inheritance tax is covered in the coalition agreement. Last week on

:57:15.:57:20.

the Syrian border I met Syrian army deserters who refused to kill their

:57:21.:57:25.

fellow-citizens and a small child winded by that regime. If things

:57:25.:57:30.

there are to get better, the world must stop selling arms to Syria.

:57:30.:57:33.

What evidence does the Prime Minister have of the country

:57:33.:57:37.

shipping arms to that regime? honourable gentleman makes an

:57:37.:57:42.

important point. We need to lead the way in making sure we tighten

:57:42.:57:46.

the sanctions, the travel bans, the asset freezing on Syria. In terms

:57:46.:57:50.

of who is helping the Syrian Government to a press their people,

:57:51.:57:56.

there is growing evidence Iran is providing a huge amount of support

:57:56.:57:59.

and there have been interceptions of shipments by Turkey which is

:57:59.:58:04.

interesting in this regard. Hizbollah is also an organisation

:58:04.:58:08.

that is standing up and supporting this wretched time into his killing

:58:08.:58:16.

so many of his own people. -- erected tyrant. There are reports

:58:16.:58:19.

from international aid agencies saying the crisis in the Horn of

:58:20.:58:24.

Africa was made worse by the delay in the international community

:58:24.:58:28.

responding. There is a similar crisis now threatening in West

:58:28.:58:32.

Africa. What will the Government do to ensure a speedy international

:58:32.:58:37.

response? He raises a very important point. My understanding

:58:37.:58:42.

is the British aid effort was very swift at getting aid into the Horn

:58:42.:58:46.

of Africa and was leading the pack in terms of the extent of the

:58:46.:58:51.

response, but also the speed at which it went in. The Horn of

:58:51.:58:57.

Africa is very difficult to deliver aid to, not least because of the

:58:57.:59:01.

control of Al-Shabab, a terrorist organisation, in large parts of

:59:02.:59:09.

Somalia. I will make sure we learnt any lessons. On 26th October I

:59:09.:59:13.

raised the case of my constituent who was killed outside her home by

:59:13.:59:18.

a driver under the influence of drugs. The Prime Minister met the

:59:18.:59:23.

family to talk about the case to change the law so we can deal with

:59:23.:59:28.

drug driving. Can he update the House on the progress? I pay

:59:28.:59:32.

tribute to the work my honourable friend is carrying out on this

:59:32.:59:37.

issue. It is important we take the issue of drug driving seriously. We

:59:37.:59:41.

are committed to making the drug- testing equipment available for use

:59:41.:59:47.

as soon as possible in police stations. The Casey is making that

:59:47.:59:51.

you need an equivalent law to drink driving is a strong one and we are

:59:51.:59:57.

examining its and we need to look at whether there will be an

:59:57.:59:59.

opportunity in the second legislative session to take forward

:59:59.:00:06.

this opera to edit. Does the Prime Minister share my concern that

:00:06.:00:09.

yesterday's ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that Abu

:00:09.:00:16.

Qatada cannot be deported? Will he agree to initiate all-party

:00:16.:00:19.

discussions focused not on rhetoric about ripping up the Human Rights

:00:19.:00:24.

Act, but how in practice this court could operate more proportionately,

:00:24.:00:27.

so that rights are respected, but the safety of the public is always

:00:28.:00:33.

paramour? I agree wholeheartedly with what the honourable gentleman

:00:33.:00:37.

is saying. It is difficult to understand because huge efforts

:00:37.:00:43.

have been gone to buy the British Government to have deportation with

:00:43.:00:47.

assurances agreement with Jordan to make sure people would not be

:00:47.:00:50.

mistreated. In this case the European Court of Human Rights has

:00:50.:00:54.

found he was not going to be tortured, but they were worried

:00:54.:00:59.

about the process of the court case in Jordan. A country like Britain

:00:59.:01:03.

that has got such a long tradition of human rights it should be able

:01:03.:01:08.

to deport people who mean us harm. We are not just going to have

:01:08.:01:12.

strong rhetoric about it. I am going to Strasbourg next week to

:01:12.:01:17.

make the argument that this is a good time to make reforms to the

:01:17.:01:21.

European Court of Human Rights and make sure it acts in a more

:01:21.:01:31.

proportional way. On 26th March, 2010, a two-and-a-half year-old boy

:01:31.:01:35.

it was kidnapped from his home in Cannock Chase and taken to Thailand

:01:35.:01:40.

by his mother. Six months later his father tracked him down in a remote

:01:40.:01:44.

village, finding his son could not speak, had his teeth broken and

:01:44.:01:48.

bruises all over his body. He believes had he not got him back

:01:48.:01:56.

then, he would have been sold. Each year in the UK, over 500 children

:01:56.:01:59.

are kidnapped in certain circumstances. With the Prime

:01:59.:02:05.

Minister meet with me to discuss what the Government can do to help

:02:05.:02:10.

parents of abducted children alike Joe? My right honourable friend is

:02:10.:02:15.

right to raise this case. It is an appalling case and any parents

:02:15.:02:19.

cannot help but be chilled to the bone about what happened to this

:02:19.:02:25.

poor boy. It is vital we put in place the best possible

:02:25.:02:32.

arrangements. I very much hope we will be able to legislate for the

:02:32.:02:36.

National crime agency and make sure it is properly resourced. It is

:02:36.:02:40.

vitally important when these appalling acts happened we get on

:02:40.:02:44.

top of them right away. The early effort is vital in saving these

:02:44.:02:54.
:02:54.:02:55.

children. When does the Prime Minister expect to be cross-

:02:55.:02:59.

examined by the Leveson inquiry? Does he not agree that the British

:02:59.:03:05.

people deserve an answer as to why he appointed one of Rupert market's

:03:05.:03:09.

top lieutenants, Andy Coulson, to the heart of the British

:03:09.:03:15.

Government? I will be delighted to appear at the Leveson inquiry

:03:15.:03:19.

whenever I am invited and I am sure other politicians will have exactly

:03:19.:03:24.

the same at Bute and I will answer all the questions when it happens.

:03:24.:03:29.

It is good to see the honourable gentleman on such good form. I

:03:29.:03:33.

often say to my children, there is no need to go to the National

:03:33.:03:39.

History Museum to see a dinosaur, come to the House of canons at

:03:39.:03:48.

I think that was a joke from the Prime Minister! Ed Miliband used

:03:48.:03:54.

all of his questions on the unemployment figures out today. He

:03:54.:03:59.

kept it quite low key, sticking to the facts. That was probably the

:03:59.:04:02.

tactic of the day given the controversy around his leadership

:04:02.:04:07.

at the moment. We are going to hear what you told us first.

:04:07.:04:11.

The vast majority of e-mails were about unemployment and the

:04:11.:04:14.

discussion between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the

:04:14.:04:18.

Opposition. The argument was a score draw, although Ed Miliband

:04:18.:04:26.

saying it is back to the 1980s, he has a point. Matthew, better from

:04:26.:04:30.

Ed Miliband, unemployment, particularly long-term youth

:04:30.:04:35.

unemployment, is solid ground. Damien from Manchester, Ed Miliband

:04:35.:04:39.

moans that unemployment is rising but it was always tight. It was

:04:39.:04:44.

just his government hid the figures. Patrick, I am getting frustrated by

:04:44.:04:49.

V debate on youth unemployment. I'd turned 27 and have been out of work

:04:50.:04:53.

for nine months and there's no support for people like me. Colin

:04:53.:04:58.

in rugby, I can't believe David Cameron is trying to play with

:04:58.:05:02.

statistics to dampen the impact of the latest unemployment figures.

:05:02.:05:05.

Cuts to public spending will result in job losses. Why does he feel the

:05:05.:05:15.

need to hide behind excuses? And about Ed Miliband, pointing out the

:05:15.:05:24.

Labour Party... OK. Nick, there seemed to be a

:05:24.:05:28.

change of tactics from the Leader of the Opposition today, not going

:05:28.:05:32.

for the scripted one-liners he hopes you will pick up for the news.

:05:32.:05:36.

Let's stick with the facts, let's grill on Lomu -- unemployment and

:05:36.:05:40.

keep it low-key. That's right, low key and factual and something

:05:40.:05:43.

people care passionately about, and about something he cares

:05:43.:05:47.

passionately about and he knows unemployment is likely to rise in

:05:47.:05:53.

the next year. Also striking, and we see it better in here, we have

:05:54.:06:01.

an enormous green, watched the other bed next to him. Silent. A

:06:01.:06:06.

lot of nodding and shaking of heads, but the actions he took in the past,

:06:06.:06:12.

which the Prime Minister described as like watching a man with to read

:06:12.:06:17.

syndrome, and then apologised, he was not shouting out, flatlining

:06:17.:06:21.

about the economy, he was quite different. There was a deliberate

:06:21.:06:26.

attempt to take some of the steam out of it. But David Cameron had up

:06:26.:06:31.

his sleeve a joke at Ed Miliband's expense about not even being able

:06:31.:06:35.

to conduct any do you turn. I think the Labour leadership will think

:06:35.:06:39.

they made a bit of progress, but there is a long way to go. Could

:06:39.:06:44.

you sum up what Labour policy is towards the cuts? We said it was

:06:44.:06:48.

wrong to go too far and too fast and that remains our position. But

:06:48.:06:52.

the Government have set a course, they have set spending plans for

:06:52.:06:57.

this Parliament and we are seeing the consequences of those plans.

:06:58.:07:02.

are -- we are seeing growth stagnating, unemployment going up.

:07:02.:07:05.

We have to deal with the consequences of those plans. We

:07:05.:07:10.

will have to face up to difficulties. It is jobs. What Ed

:07:10.:07:13.

Balls and Ed Miliband said last weekend about paid in the public

:07:13.:07:18.

sector, it is basically about jobs, preserving as many jobs as possible.

:07:18.:07:21.

Labour will make jobs our top priority this year. Everything we

:07:21.:07:25.

do has to be about jobs because this is the Government's big

:07:26.:07:30.

failure. They haven't grasped what is happening out there to places

:07:30.:07:34.

like my constituency where I have parents and grandparents, every

:07:34.:07:39.

week, saying what are we going to do for my son and daughter? That is

:07:39.:07:42.

what we are experiencing in our constituencies and that is what we

:07:42.:07:48.

will push away on all year. Let me ask you again, what is Labour's

:07:48.:07:54.

policy towards cuts now? By just explained that. I will go further.

:07:54.:07:58.

You didn't come up with respect. You went on about jobs, it would be

:07:58.:08:01.

surprising if the Labour opposition at a time of 2.6 million unemployed

:08:01.:08:06.

did not go on about jobs, that is different from a policy. What is

:08:06.:08:13.

your policy? A just said. -- I just said. Ed Miliband said they should

:08:13.:08:18.

change course. We have set out a plan for a banker's bonus tax to

:08:18.:08:22.

pay for jobs for young people. That is the policy we have on the table.

:08:23.:08:29.

It is a costed policy. They were wrong to scrap our Future Jobs Fund,

:08:29.:08:33.

they were wrong to scrap the education maintenance allowance.

:08:33.:08:36.

They are now desperately trying to scrabble around to deal with what

:08:36.:08:40.

they are facing. You would not reinstate them? We said they were

:08:40.:08:45.

wrong to do it. Will you reinstate them? They have set a spending plan

:08:45.:08:49.

for this Parliament so what can we do? We can't say we won the world

:08:49.:08:53.

we wanted a couple of years ago. They have put these plans in place

:08:53.:08:57.

and damaged young people's job prospects. We have to face up to

:08:57.:09:03.

that reality. What was the change in policy announced by Mr Balls and

:09:03.:09:08.

Mr Miliband last week? It was about public sector pay. They said that

:09:08.:09:12.

although it is difficult, it is the right policy because that enables

:09:12.:09:16.

us to ensure as many people as possible are helped to stay in jobs

:09:16.:09:22.

in the public sector. Right now, this is the problem. Acceptance of

:09:22.:09:30.

the pay freeze. Accepting a pay freeze was the change? That was it?

:09:30.:09:36.

We have to face up to the mess at George Osborne is creating. That

:09:36.:09:43.

was it, that was the one change? That was the change. That's all?

:09:43.:09:47.

are accepting the circumstances the Government has created. We have to

:09:47.:09:52.

work in the real world, the world George Osborne has created. At the

:09:52.:09:57.

moment, the Government is borrowing about �125 billion a year, but

:09:57.:10:01.

you're urging it to borrow more because you think the cuts are too

:10:01.:10:06.

fast and too deep. But in 2015, if you were to meet, even though the

:10:06.:10:10.

Government's policy is to win the election, due even if that policy

:10:10.:10:16.

is not a massive success, borrowing will be less than 102 �5 billion.

:10:16.:10:21.

But you are saying you were not -- would not borrow any Mawtus --

:10:21.:10:24.

reinstate some of the plans. You were borrowed more now from a

:10:24.:10:30.

higher plateau. If I could get a word in! Let me explain. You have

:10:30.:10:37.

had a lot of words! They've made the wrong choice. No, no! I am

:10:37.:10:41.

trying to lay out the choices so that our views as can see what your

:10:41.:10:46.

answers are. Answer the question. The choices they made were the

:10:46.:10:50.

wrong choices. I will argue strongly they were false economy.

:10:50.:10:56.

If you cut EMA, the money we spent on DNA... That is not the answer.

:10:56.:11:01.

The few cut EMA, you have to give people benefits, you have to

:11:01.:11:05.

subsidise them to do unproductive things. If you cut the Future Jobs

:11:05.:11:08.

Fund, you have young people going on to the benefits system. It is a

:11:08.:11:13.

false economy, the wrong choice. If you cut schools for the future...

:11:13.:11:17.

will have one more go. At the moment, borrowing is very high but

:11:17.:11:22.

you want to borrow more. By 2015, borrowing will be less, but use a

:11:22.:11:28.

borrow more. That is the point. We will not just borrow more money to

:11:28.:11:31.

fulfil all these promises, we can't do that, that would be

:11:31.:11:35.

irresponsible. We now have to face up to the world that has been

:11:35.:11:39.

created by this government, a world of no growth, where the deficit and

:11:39.:11:43.

borrowing is even higher and a world where more and more are

:11:43.:11:50.

paying for the cost of failure. I don't understand point. I will

:11:50.:11:54.

not be a referee! What is interesting about what has happened

:11:54.:11:58.

this week, and what the Labour Party have found difficult, is

:11:58.:12:01.

whether to signal their as a significant change in policy or not.

:12:01.:12:06.

I think Andy Burnham is not only being clear, but he is right that

:12:06.:12:11.

it actually one thing changed. The shadow Chancellor said the Labour

:12:11.:12:16.

Party would back a cap on public sector pay if it was a way of

:12:16.:12:21.

preserving jobs. It was chosen as a signal, if you like, that Labour

:12:21.:12:24.

understood there were some difficult decisions and that in

:12:24.:12:28.

addition, he repeated it and said something in his party conference

:12:28.:12:32.

speech that many people did not notice. He could not pledge to

:12:32.:12:34.

reverse the coalition's cuts because he didn't know the state of

:12:34.:12:39.

the public finances. His answer to your question would be wait and see.

:12:39.:12:45.

We might borrow more, we might not. The reason the Labour Party has got

:12:45.:12:49.

itself into difficulty, some people behind the scenes have been saying

:12:49.:12:52.

hugely important speech, changed everything, our attitude is

:12:52.:12:56.

different, others say we have not changed very much at all and

:12:56.:12:58.

frankly the Leader of the Opposition seemed to endorse that

:12:58.:13:06.

view by using the phrase too fast and too much. Let me ask you this,

:13:06.:13:12.

Iain Duncan Smith. I want to come back to disability payments. The

:13:12.:13:16.

Macmillan Cancer Support, which has a very well established and highly

:13:16.:13:22.

regarded charity, estimates that 7,000 cancer patients, too sick to

:13:22.:13:26.

work, will see their income drop by �94 a week from April. What do you

:13:26.:13:31.

say to that? It is not correct. Let me explain. Viewers will be

:13:31.:13:39.

confused. We are talking about the contributory end of this benefit.

:13:39.:13:44.

This contributory level starts if you have savings of �16,000. When

:13:44.:13:48.

you reach �10,000, you will start to get the income related, when you

:13:48.:13:53.

get to �6,000, you are fully on income related benefits. It is not

:13:53.:13:57.

an absolute like that. People will be sliding into the income related

:13:57.:14:02.

as they reduce their savings. Vicki point is I think it is right, after

:14:02.:14:07.

a year in which you have received benefits, we ask you to use some of

:14:07.:14:11.

your savings because the taxpayer simply can't go on paying money to

:14:11.:14:15.

people who have savings and don't want to use them. Use some of your

:14:15.:14:23.

savings and when you get to a level, average savings for British

:14:23.:14:26.

families of �450. Most people will not be touched by this. With

:14:26.:14:30.

regards to this, we have done everything Macmillan asked. More

:14:30.:14:34.

people will go on to the support group if they can't work and the

:14:35.:14:39.

support group is beyond a contributory point. Macmillan's

:14:39.:14:44.

research discovered two thirds of cancer patients get a drop of

:14:44.:14:48.

income simply following the diagnosis. They skip meals to save

:14:48.:14:52.

money, they are scared of losing their homes. The point about this

:14:52.:14:56.

is if they don't have the income, they will go straight on to the

:14:56.:14:59.

income related benefit and if they are too ill to work, which will be

:14:59.:15:03.

a large number, they will go straight on to the income related

:15:03.:15:07.

benefits. There is a sliding scale even if they have savings. As you

:15:07.:15:11.

reduce those savings, you go on to the income related benefits. For

:15:11.:15:16.

most viewers, this is the real point. If you have savings, after a

:15:16.:15:20.

year, all we are asking is that you dip into some of those savings and

:15:20.:15:24.

as you reduce them, then you will go back under the income support.

:15:24.:15:27.

Frankly, what happens here is that people who made a contribution can

:15:27.:15:31.

expect to receive a certain amount of support and then at some point

:15:31.:15:34.

taxpayers need to know it is not an open-ended... We have run out of

:15:34.:15:40.

time. If Nick Nairn are watching, you will have seen Iain Duncan

:15:40.:15:46.

Smith's reply. -- if mack Millom are watching. We can post your

:15:46.:15:56.
:15:56.:15:58.

reply be viewed the Merlot - We can release youth. NK, ago.

:15:58.:16:02.

Cross-party talks began yesterday to try to reach a consensus on a

:16:02.:16:06.

long-term settlement for funding social care in England. At the

:16:06.:16:10.

moment older people with savings are expected to pay an unlimited

:16:10.:16:15.

amount towards their own care costs. But many people who moved into care

:16:15.:16:20.

homes are forced to sell their houses. The journalist Rosie

:16:20.:16:25.

Boycott saw how the system worked, or failed to work, when her father

:16:25.:16:33.

developed Alzheimer's and now works for the Alzheimer's Society.

:16:33.:16:38.

The issue of who should pay for adult, social care has been ignored

:16:38.:16:42.

for far too long. There are hundreds and thousands of elderly

:16:42.:16:45.

people suffering from dementia who are simply not getting the kind of

:16:46.:16:50.

care they should. Unlike being in hospital, being cared for at home

:16:50.:16:55.

when you have got dementia, means taking care of all sorts of

:16:55.:16:59.

fundamental, human needs like watching, getting dressed, going to

:16:59.:17:04.

bed, doing your shopping, getting your food together, going to the

:17:04.:17:10.

toilet. These are things everybody needs to maintain their dignity.

:17:10.:17:13.

But at the very moment when an elderly person is feeling most

:17:13.:17:17.

vulnerable they are being asked to pay huge sums to receive care that

:17:18.:17:23.

is not even adequate. I know after looking after my dad just how much

:17:23.:17:27.

care people with dementia needs. As the disease escalates you need more

:17:27.:17:34.

and more. In bad's is in the end we had round-the-clock carers. The

:17:34.:17:38.

Bills were getting horrendous. Then he went into a home, which we paid

:17:38.:17:43.

for us well. He spent his last 18 months there being well cared for.

:17:43.:17:49.

We were lucky we had the money to be able to do that. But many people

:17:49.:17:54.

are now paying in excess of �100,000 for poor quality care and

:17:54.:17:59.

that is only going to get worse as all local authorities are having

:17:59.:18:04.

their budgets continually carp. This affects us all. If we can keep

:18:04.:18:07.

people in their homes and look after them, then they do not need

:18:07.:18:13.

to go into hospital or a care home, so it is a false economy to cut

:18:13.:18:17.

down on the social care budget. Last summer the deal not Commission

:18:17.:18:21.

provided the best solution we have seen so far on how to fund adult,

:18:21.:18:25.

social care, but will the Government really listen? Right now

:18:25.:18:29.

we do not know. It is good the political parties are coming

:18:29.:18:36.

together to talk about this issue, but it is vital that people with

:18:36.:18:41.

dementia deserve the care and respect that we can give them 10

:18:41.:18:44.

families should not be left to cope with this horrible illness alone.

:18:44.:18:52.

They should not be punished as well. Rosie Boycott joins us now. You

:18:52.:18:55.

mentioned the Don not commission and they came up with a good plan.

:18:55.:19:01.

What are your views on the cap? think the cat that has been

:19:01.:19:07.

proposed, �35,000, is a reasonable sum. Certainly that would pay for a

:19:07.:19:12.

lot of care and after that you do not need to be penalised. But there

:19:12.:19:19.

are so many problems with care. One is it should be classed as an

:19:19.:19:24.

illness. Forgetting to feed yourself or forgetting to get out

:19:24.:19:30.

of bed is not the social problem, that is a medical problem. Right

:19:30.:19:34.

from the beginning we are assessing this wrongly. That has always been

:19:34.:19:42.

the case. It is not just recently. Alzheimer's is on the health and

:19:42.:19:46.

social care divide because it is a medical, degenerative condition,

:19:46.:19:50.

but the consequences are you need help with daily living, so you need

:19:50.:19:57.

social support. That really exposes the cruelty of the current system.

:19:58.:20:02.

But there are a lot of false economies. The longer you can keep

:20:02.:20:08.

someone at home, the cheaper it is. I completely agree. I tried to make

:20:08.:20:13.

a big change. This is by far and away the most urgent public policy

:20:13.:20:18.

challenge facing the country. The most vulnerable people get wiped

:20:18.:20:23.

out physically, emotionally and financially by their condition.

:20:23.:20:28.

Iain Duncan-Smith, let's go to the cap. Is that something you would

:20:28.:20:35.

like to see? �60,000 had been looked at. That is a different cap.

:20:35.:20:44.

That was a figure that came out about a cap on head costs. We are

:20:44.:20:49.

going to consult on this. The deal not report is a big breakthrough in

:20:49.:20:53.

terms of trying to find out what we are going to do about care in the

:20:53.:20:59.

home, and what will happen if people have to go into care homes.

:20:59.:21:05.

I am talking to Andrew Lansley at the moment. If we can all coalesce

:21:05.:21:09.

around there's, figure out the best way forward, economics come into

:21:09.:21:16.

play, but it is important to see the balance. The economics of this

:21:16.:21:22.

is incredibly important. Just one week of all dementia patients in

:21:22.:21:27.

hospital would relieve the NHS of �80 million at a stroke. It is

:21:27.:21:33.

getting worse, it is so important. We all live longer. It will be like

:21:33.:21:40.

Sure Start for the end of lives. a consensus lightly? We would all

:21:40.:21:46.

want to reach some kind of consensus. There had been some

:21:46.:21:52.

reports that they were looking at a bigger cap. But �35,000 would be

:21:52.:21:57.

per person, so it is �75,000 per couple. It would still blow a

:21:57.:22:02.

massive hole in the savings of my constituents. Let's be realistic

:22:02.:22:07.

about this. It is definitely a step forward. We should have talks about

:22:07.:22:12.

it to see if we can come to an agreement. These are all things

:22:12.:22:16.

that have to be debated. The Government is trying to be as

:22:16.:22:20.

positive as possible about the report, it is having discussions

:22:20.:22:30.
:22:30.:22:30.

with ministers and all-party groups. You have got to do this. It does

:22:30.:22:34.

not have any respect of which party you are in. We are all possibly

:22:34.:22:39.

likely to end up their and our parents as well. It seems

:22:39.:22:42.

extraordinary that Government after Government takes a football into

:22:42.:22:48.

the next set of long grass. I will not go over does Coles today, but

:22:48.:22:52.

for older people they are looking to us to raise our game and to

:22:53.:22:58.

agree to do something. Have you dropped the compulsory levy idea?

:22:58.:23:02.

There is a case to say that care of older people should be provided in

:23:02.:23:06.

the same way that we provide other support in this country. That's how

:23:07.:23:12.

we provide the NHS and the benefits we are talking about earlier. What

:23:12.:23:20.

we are saying is in elderly care, I am not saying I was uniquely right,

:23:20.:23:25.

but do not rule it out. It is more unfair than saying the most

:23:25.:23:29.

vulnerable people pay massive amounts towards their care. There

:23:29.:23:37.

is a suggestion for more public money. They looked at �1.7 billion

:23:37.:23:43.

a year. We do like to see more of money being put into it? More money

:23:43.:23:48.

would undoubtedly help, but we need the whole package. People with

:23:48.:23:53.

Alzheimer's are not asking for any different deal. It is a disability

:23:53.:23:58.

and it needs careful stock this system is going backwards now, not

:23:58.:24:06.

forwards. Councils are increasing the charges on people. Whether you

:24:06.:24:16.
:24:16.:24:17.

are in the postcode lottery... going to have to stop you.

:24:17.:24:21.

Someone is shedding in my ear. The National Security Council met this

:24:21.:24:26.

morning and it talked about nothing but the Falklands. It was the only

:24:26.:24:32.

matter on the agenda. They know something we do not. There has been

:24:32.:24:36.

talk around Westminster that Parliament is seen by the public as

:24:36.:24:41.

closed and unwelcoming. How preposterous. How anyone can find

:24:41.:24:44.

the armed police and the airport security scanner and welcoming is

:24:44.:24:52.

beyond me. What do they want? Bean bags and a hug from MPs. The

:24:52.:24:56.

portcullis logo that has been plastered all over Parliament for

:24:56.:25:00.

hundreds of years is being seen as the culprit. Is it an imposing

:25:00.:25:07.

relic or a harmless tradition? We sent Adam out for a rebrand.

:25:07.:25:10.

For centuries the portcullis has graced pretty much everything

:25:10.:25:15.

around here, from the buildings to the uniforms of the staff. But this

:25:15.:25:21.

week an adviser to the Speaker said that the legendary logo is putting

:25:21.:25:26.

up the public. The symbol is hardly a welcoming one. I know it has a

:25:26.:25:32.

great history, but it is seen by the public as a gate to keep people

:25:32.:25:41.

out. One MP was astonished. I was astounded about how you described

:25:41.:25:47.

the portcullis and our history. Frankly, is your aim Disney on the

:25:47.:25:52.

Thames? I do not understand where you think you are taking us. Let's

:25:52.:25:57.

put this to the test with some visitors from abroad outside the

:25:57.:26:02.

Parliamentary Bookshop. Would this put people off? No, I'm here. I am

:26:02.:26:08.

visiting and I am loving it. You do not find this scary? Are you trying

:26:08.:26:14.

to get me to say it is scary? looks like a prison, super imposed

:26:14.:26:21.

with the Crown. It is not like a symbolic thing with power for the

:26:21.:26:29.

parliament. Should they change it? Definitely. Change it to what? We

:26:29.:26:34.

asked this designer for some advice. One of the most fantastic bits of

:26:34.:26:39.

the Palace of Westminster is Big Ben. I know it is used on all the

:26:39.:26:43.

postcards on Oxford Street to talk about London, but that is the focus

:26:43.:26:50.

of Parliament for most people. It has time. If you set that alongside

:26:50.:26:56.

the portcullis and you build the Palace of Westminster into it as

:26:56.:27:01.

well, it becomes less dominant, but it starts to work as an identity

:27:01.:27:06.

and it becomes approachable. Nice idea, but the parliamentary

:27:06.:27:12.

authorities say there are no plans for a rebrand. It looks like a new

:27:12.:27:18.

logo is a no-go. It is the way he tells them. This

:27:18.:27:23.

suggestion has come from the speakers Advisory Council on Public

:27:23.:27:27.

Engagement. Given that the Speaker redesigned his own crest with a

:27:27.:27:31.

rainbow flag and a ladder, do you think you should be allowed

:27:31.:27:38.

anywhere near rebranding? These repressions never work. Did the oak

:27:38.:27:44.

tree work? And consider near four Royal Mail? The portcullis is great

:27:44.:27:52.

and Parliament is very open. A you need a new logo? No, and there is

:27:52.:27:56.

not an organisation out there who would not die to have a logo as

:27:56.:28:00.

recognised as that. It is ridiculous. Do you need to make

:28:00.:28:05.

Parliament a bit more welcoming? do hope people will come in, but

:28:05.:28:11.

that is not the reason why they might not come. I think the glass

:28:11.:28:16.

in the gallery is a bit too much. was against that, but that was

:28:16.:28:21.

because of terrorism. Check people properly when they come in. I was

:28:21.:28:28.

never in favour of that. agreement after 90 minutes! Time to

:28:28.:28:33.

give you the answer to our guess the Year competition. It is as Ed

:28:33.:28:39.

Miliband said, back to the 80s, the answer is 1988. That is all for

:28:39.:28:44.

today. That due to our guests, Iain Duncan-Smith and Andy Burnham. See

:28:44.:28:48.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith and shadow health secretary Andy Burnham. There is a look at how to pay for care for the elderly with the former newspaper editor Rosie Boycott. Plus, an examination of welfare reforms, plans for a new airport in the Thames estuary, and a discussion of the parliamentary logo - is it welcoming enough?


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