26/01/2012 Daily Politics


26/01/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn have the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Welcome to the Daily Politics. 60 minutes of public service

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broadcasting at its finest. That is what it says here! The Deputy Prime

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Minister bids to get low earners out of paying tax more quickly.

:00:51.:00:54.

Will he get his way with the Treasury?

:00:54.:00:58.

They have gone to the Swiss Alps to get a better view of the euro-zone

:00:58.:01:02.

crisis, but do the politicians and businessmen gathering in Davos like

:01:02.:01:08.

what they are seeing that? The Lords inflict a 6th defeat on

:01:08.:01:14.

the government on welfare reform. We must now stand together and

:01:14.:01:18.

fight for the things in which we all believe. They are more

:01:18.:01:22.

important than any of us individually.

:01:22.:01:32.
:01:32.:01:35.

And how accents can help or hinder All that in 60 minutes. A veritable

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festival of politics here on BBC2. With us for the duration, a

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familiar face, Joan Bakewell, now a Labour peer in the Lords. Welcome

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back. First, the government's packs plant

:01:51.:01:56.

a bomb be laid out by the Chancellor. So you stick -- sit

:01:56.:02:01.

down with a stiff drink me prepare yourself for the bad news, so

:02:01.:02:05.

imagine a surprise when you turn on your telly to hear the Deputy Prime

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Minister talking about speeding up the tax increase threshold. I want

:02:12.:02:14.

the commission to go further and faster in delivering the full

:02:14.:02:19.

�10,000, because bluntly, the pressure on family finances is

:02:19.:02:23.

reaching boiling point. Compared to those at the top, these families

:02:23.:02:28.

have seen their earnings in decline for a decade. That has got worse

:02:28.:02:34.

since 2008, with lower real wages and fewer hours at work. I am

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joined now by our political correspondent. It is unusual to

:02:38.:02:42.

hear tax plans being announced so close to the Budget. Presumably he

:02:42.:02:47.

had clearance, and it sounds as if it is going to happen? He told me

:02:47.:02:52.

this morning that he spoke to George Osborne and the Prime

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Minister about it, I don't think they sat down and signed off on the

:02:56.:03:04.

proposals, but clearly they knew what was coming. It is very unusual.

:03:04.:03:09.

It is just six weeks before the Budget. But this is a very

:03:09.:03:13.

important issue for Nick Clegg, there is an element of Economics

:03:13.:03:17.

here, it is being proposed as a way of kick-starting part of the

:03:17.:03:21.

economy, by getting more money into the pockets of low earners, because

:03:21.:03:25.

people believe they will spend more quickly, but what is more

:03:25.:03:32.

significant is this is about distinction - Liberal Democrats

:03:32.:03:38.

decoupling, if you will. It is an idea which is very important in

:03:38.:03:42.

terms of fairness. So this is a Lib Dem priority, not necessarily

:03:42.:03:46.

government policy, although I know they were committed to doing it by

:03:46.:03:53.

2015. Have they costed it? It sounds like a stimulus to me.

:03:53.:03:58.

a coalition policy, it says in black and white, and their first

:03:58.:04:00.

priority when it comes to tax is increasing the personal tax

:04:00.:04:05.

threshold. What Nick Clegg wants today is for it to go further and

:04:05.:04:10.

to go faster. He wants it to happen before that commitment of 2015 in

:04:10.:04:14.

Parliament. I think the rout will be about Howard will be funded, and

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the pressure is on Nick Clegg to come forward with some specific

:04:20.:04:23.

proposals he thinks George Osborne can accept. He talked about tax

:04:23.:04:29.

loopholes. He talked about stamp duty, pension relief, pension

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allowance as well, and then mentioned tax, which is least

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palatable for the Chancellor. He did also mention other ways of

:04:37.:04:41.

tinkering around to get this figure of about 9 billion, which is the

:04:41.:04:45.

cost, which seemed a far more palatable to the Chancellor if he

:04:45.:04:53.

were to agree with this. Thank you. Let's look at the substance of the

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proposal. If you have got 9 billion in spare cash to spend, is taking

:04:59.:05:05.

low earners out of tax the best way of helping the working poor?

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must -- he must be the last person to notice that the poor are hurting

:05:09.:05:13.

the most from the government policy. It is a policy that hasn't yielded

:05:13.:05:20.

croaked. One of the weight of yielding growth is to get people

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spending money. There should be a revision of the 80, that is what

:05:24.:05:29.

you need, people who need to spend can you need to give them the money,

:05:29.:05:39.
:05:39.:05:41.

it is obvious daughter of --. Was so you have to get done spending?

:05:41.:05:49.

People are her to get all sorts of ways, low-paid families, -- hurting.

:05:49.:05:52.

There are schemes that are being squeezed and all sorts of benefits

:05:52.:05:56.

systems that are squeezing poor families. He is quite right, they

:05:56.:06:01.

need help. But if the aim is to help poor families, if you're not

:06:01.:06:06.

in a job at all and you are poor, then this doesn't help you, because

:06:06.:06:13.

you are not paying tax. And note most of the 9 billion will go to

:06:13.:06:16.

middle income, that may be good or bad come but it is not targeted at

:06:16.:06:25.

the ball. It will include the lower earners, it doesn't take Marks --

:06:25.:06:28.

take much, and that is where the expansion needs to happen in the

:06:28.:06:33.

economy. Most of that 9 billion will not go to the poor. It won't,

:06:33.:06:36.

but it will go to the people feeling the squeeze, not just be

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destitute are feeling the squeeze debate is the squeezed middle.

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would be different. What is the lower squeeze? People who were on

:06:48.:06:53.

20,000 a year. They would benefit from this. That may be the plan,

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actually. Given it under the guise of helping the very poor. Later we

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will discuss whether taxpayers should be told more about where

:07:01.:07:06.

their money is going. In case you thought the Pensthorpe Nature

:07:06.:07:16.
:07:16.:07:17.

Reserve as it -- the eurozone crisis had gone away, it hasn't.

:07:17.:07:20.

Leaders have gone to the World Economic Forum. The crisis is still

:07:21.:07:25.

top of the agenda. Earlier this week the IMF said that the global

:07:25.:07:30.

economy was now deeply into the danger zone as a result of risks

:07:30.:07:37.

from the euro-zone. So how are our leaders going to get their act

:07:37.:07:42.

together? Are they just going to ski, eat and drink? I am not sure

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about the former! The International Monetary Fund forecasts that the

:07:45.:07:49.

euro area will slip into recession this year. Estimates that GDP in

:07:50.:07:55.

the euro-zone will shrink by 0.5%. The IMF also wants a radical shift

:07:55.:07:59.

in policy to save the era. It is urging leaders to consider a

:08:00.:08:04.

doubling or tripling of the bail- out fund, and fought EU

:08:04.:08:07.

institutions and governments to share the burden of debt relief for

:08:07.:08:11.

Greece. This is opposed by Angela Merkel, who has raised fresh doubts

:08:11.:08:15.

about the ability to save Greece from a default, calling the country

:08:15.:08:20.

a special case. Talks are resuming between the Greek government and

:08:20.:08:24.

the banks over a write-down of its debt pile. Banks have said they are

:08:24.:08:31.

willing to take a 50% cut, but Greece is looking for more. Angela

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Merkel thinks it will be solved by matching austerity to the ways

:08:34.:08:40.

Europe is Govan, guaranteeing close fiscal union, but legendary

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investor George Soros has sounded a warning. The austerity Jenny wants

:08:44.:08:50.

to impose will push Europe into a deflationary debt spiral. --

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Germany wants to impose. David Cameron says Europe needs to slash

:08:54.:09:00.

red tape in order to promote growth. Our single-market remains

:09:00.:09:05.

incomplete, and there are still a colossal 4700 professions across

:09:05.:09:09.

the European Union to which access is regulated by government. And

:09:09.:09:13.

that is not all. In spite of the economic challenge, in spite of the

:09:14.:09:18.

unemployment challenge, we are still doing things through the EU

:09:18.:09:24.

to make life even harder. In the name of social protection, the EU

:09:24.:09:28.

has promoted Mehmet -- measures that impose burdens on businesses

:09:28.:09:34.

and can destroy each jobs. The pregnant workers' directive, the

:09:34.:09:39.

working time directive, the list goes on. That was the Prime

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Minister speaking at Davos and now I go. We are joined now by the

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Conservative MP John Redwood and from Brussels, Liberal Democrat MEP

:09:49.:09:54.

Sharon Bowles. She has just been reappointed, some said she wouldn't

:09:54.:09:59.

be because she is British, but it is proud for the nation that she

:09:59.:10:08.

has been reappointed. She is chairman of the Economic and

:10:08.:10:16.

Monetary Affairs Committee. Is it still in Britain's interest to

:10:16.:10:21.

support the efforts of Germany and France to save the euro-zone as

:10:21.:10:28.

currently constituted? I think it is in British interests to do as

:10:28.:10:34.

much as we can to assist in rescuing, and to participate as

:10:34.:10:41.

much as we can in the plans, and to contribute our expertise to make is

:10:41.:10:47.

not just about money. It is also about the steps to take. The

:10:47.:10:51.

problem isn't going to go away, it keeps on getting more serious, and

:10:51.:10:55.

we are affected by it. So the more we are in the room in discussions,

:10:55.:11:01.

the better that is for the UK. understand that is your line, but I

:11:01.:11:07.

am asking whether it is right that British policy should be to support

:11:07.:11:13.

keeping the euro-zone as currently constituted, with its 17 members,

:11:13.:11:18.

intact. Is that the proper course of British policy? I am not sure

:11:18.:11:24.

that is going to help anybody if the UK had a policy that says, then

:11:24.:11:27.

it should be a fragmentation of the euro-zone. I think hanging together

:11:27.:11:35.

is probably an important thing to do. So your answer is yes? I think

:11:35.:11:39.

yes, the issue of whether or not we should face up to the size of the

:11:39.:11:44.

Greek debt and the fact it is going to be difficult to get it so that

:11:44.:11:51.

by 2020 it is down to 120%, which is what lies behind the haircut of

:11:51.:11:55.

the Bond holders and so on, I think to have some straight talking about

:11:55.:11:59.

the possibilities and impossibilities... I am going to

:11:59.:12:03.

come on to Greece as a specific case, I it and just looking at the

:12:03.:12:08.

eurozone as a whole at the moment. Is the policy not to be ticket

:12:08.:12:11.

eurozone intact, because if it does begin to split up or free at the

:12:11.:12:16.

edges, it will throw Europe into the deep recession which will drag

:12:16.:12:21.

us down? I don't agree with that at all. The only way forward for the

:12:21.:12:25.

euro-zone is to be realistic and to lose two or three countries and try

:12:25.:12:30.

and stabilised the rest. I think in public, at the British government

:12:30.:12:33.

shouldn't say anything at all, they shouldn't say anything that could

:12:33.:12:37.

be construed as damaging or difficult, so the safest thing is

:12:37.:12:43.

to say nothing. In private, they should be giving straight, honest

:12:43.:12:46.

advice, and the honest financial and economic advice you have to

:12:46.:12:50.

give is that the scheme is now doing enormous destruction to jobs

:12:50.:12:54.

and the social fabric and the economic life of several states

:12:54.:12:57.

within the euro-zone, the sooner they are allowed out, the better,

:12:58.:13:02.

we can get on with adjusting and we can start to rescue the wider

:13:02.:13:09.

European economy. Our policy should be to shut up? Publicly. That is

:13:09.:13:13.

what Nicolas Sarkozy told us to do, I'm glad you're align itself with

:13:13.:13:18.

the outgoing French President! are deliberately missed a string

:13:18.:13:22.

what I said. I was saying that we should say anything in public that

:13:22.:13:26.

could be construed as unhelpful, but in private, we should not shut

:13:26.:13:31.

up, we are a full member of the wider EU. We should say this is not

:13:31.:13:37.

working, there is now Meechan the distraught -- mutually assured

:13:37.:13:40.

austerity, a circle which has been created, and it needs to be broken.

:13:40.:13:45.

If they allowed Greece and Portugal out, it would start be process of

:13:45.:13:51.

recovery. Sharon Bowles, is it inevitable that Greece will

:13:51.:13:58.

default? Angela Merkel hinted at that? I think unless we pull

:13:58.:14:03.

something out of the bag now, it is looking that way. There are few

:14:03.:14:08.

other things we can try first, for example getting the ECB to

:14:08.:14:11.

participate in their hair cut on the bonds, because it bought the

:14:12.:14:17.

bonds at less than full value, so the notional profit it has got and

:14:17.:14:21.

it could be put into the pot. might be illegal under the

:14:21.:14:27.

Maastricht treaty. They're not meant to be bailing out European

:14:27.:14:33.

governments. The profit element, there is 30% to spare, I am not

:14:33.:14:37.

sure that would make it illegal. And there are possibilities, the

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question is again with it is big enough to get down to something

:14:43.:14:50.

that is sustainable. We have got it a little bit in the UK as well,

:14:50.:14:55.

because of all the austerity that is around, it does feed off one

:14:55.:14:59.

another in adjacent countries. It depresses growth, and we cannot

:14:59.:15:09.
:15:09.:15:11.

actually get out of the problems we Let me bring John Redwood back in.

:15:11.:15:16.

Should Britain be giving more money to the IMF, which looks like it

:15:16.:15:21.

will be coming for a cash call to its members, a lot of which it

:15:21.:15:28.

wants to use to help the EC and the euro this -- ECB and the European

:15:28.:15:32.

Union burlap eurozone? He should make this has the option available

:15:32.:15:42.

for as normal purposes. -- it should make this subscription. You

:15:42.:15:46.

can't have appropriate monetary action, so we should say to the IMF,

:15:46.:15:49.

do not waste your money on this, and I agree with good Osborne when

:15:49.:15:56.

he says we should not be bailing out currencies. -- George Osborne.

:15:56.:16:04.

Greece is to the euro area as California is to America. Should we

:16:04.:16:08.

pony up our share if it comes knocking on our door?

:16:08.:16:14.

I think I half agree with what is being said. We should be looking at

:16:14.:16:18.

trying to assist countries and we should be trying to make sure we do

:16:18.:16:23.

contribute to the IMF for its programmes and, without earmarking.

:16:23.:16:29.

I don't think that is the idea, and you should not contribute to

:16:30.:16:34.

something earmark. Everybody has to get realistic about what is

:16:34.:16:39.

possible and impossible. And how far will Germany go, we cannot

:16:39.:16:44.

carry on as we are at the moment. If we drip-feed money in it becomes

:16:44.:16:48.

many wasted. Should a money be going in or shouldn't it be a pity

:16:48.:16:52.

that the dock if the Germans will not dig into their deeper pockets,

:16:52.:16:59.

why should we? We have to look at how it is done,

:16:59.:17:03.

whether it is the most effective way and gives us something big

:17:03.:17:08.

enough to effect the proper rescue. If it is another bit of drip-

:17:08.:17:12.

feeding, I think we have a right to to voice if we feel we are cynical

:17:13.:17:20.

about it. That is where it is important we are in the room.

:17:20.:17:24.

If even Sharon Bowles and Angola Meckel, probably the two most

:17:24.:17:28.

powerful woman in Europe, -- Angela Merkel, are saying Greece could

:17:28.:17:33.

default, it seems that will happen. I agree, it seems it will. I agree

:17:33.:17:37.

with John Redwood. We should just stay silent on the international

:17:37.:17:43.

picture. I don't think David Cameron is highly regarded in

:17:43.:17:48.

Europe. After his rather dramatic walkout which played well with his

:17:48.:17:52.

backbenchers, which went down very badly in Europe, also he belongs to

:17:52.:17:57.

a strange group within Europe that is far right of the central group

:17:57.:18:03.

so he doesn't hold any authority there.

:18:03.:18:09.

At least he is there this year, Nicolas Sarkozy might not be.

:18:09.:18:14.

have considerable influence and authority if we wish to use it. We

:18:14.:18:18.

must use it for sensible economic policies. Europe is locked into a

:18:18.:18:21.

dreadful deflation. The crisis has only been going on

:18:21.:18:27.

for three years. I'm sure we will be back.

:18:27.:18:31.

Last night the House of Lords inflicted another defeat on the

:18:31.:18:34.

Government's welfare reforms. This time there was a proposal to charge

:18:34.:18:40.

estranged parents �100 to use the services of the Child Support

:18:40.:18:43.

Agency to settled out maintenance disputes. The government was

:18:43.:18:50.

defeated by 270, to 278, the biggest rebellion by far. Among the

:18:50.:18:56.

rebels with 34 Conservative Peers. Lord Lawson, thank you for joining

:18:56.:19:02.

us. Why did you rebel? This was an issue on a bill which

:19:02.:19:06.

as a whole I strongly support, and I strongly support the benefit cat

:19:06.:19:10.

which the great majority of the British people do, but this was a

:19:11.:19:14.

particular provision where people had -- where the government had

:19:14.:19:18.

clearly got it wrong. James McKay, a man of great calibre, who work

:19:19.:19:22.

worked with closely in government, he was Lord Chancellor and there

:19:22.:19:26.

was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he sought to put it right and I

:19:26.:19:29.

supported him as a number of others did.

:19:29.:19:33.

What about the argument the Lords is now, particularly on welfare

:19:33.:19:37.

reforms, overstepping his role. As you said yourself there is huge

:19:37.:19:42.

public support for the welfare bill and the welfare reforms. Do you

:19:42.:19:45.

really have a right to vote down a part of key government proposals

:19:45.:19:49.

even if you said it is wrong, is this what the Lords should be

:19:49.:19:53.

doing? Absolutely. We have a duty as a

:19:53.:19:59.

revising chamber and that is what we are doing. On the welfare cap,

:19:59.:20:04.

the benefit cap, there was one defeat for the government, which I

:20:04.:20:10.

supported the government and the government are absolutely right,

:20:10.:20:15.

crazy Lib Dem rebellion. What about the aspects that have

:20:15.:20:18.

been voted down, is there a risk that the Government's welfare bill

:20:18.:20:23.

is actually doing some damage to the modernising image, there will

:20:23.:20:27.

be part of the population that you them as too cruel?

:20:27.:20:34.

I don't think we wanted about image and all that sort of thing. What is

:20:34.:20:40.

important is to get the policy right, get the legislation right,

:20:40.:20:45.

avoid it to cut back on a necessary public expenditure, at a time of

:20:45.:20:49.

great economic difficulty, and large does it -- budget deficit,

:20:49.:20:53.

and have a welfare scheme which encourages people to work, but

:20:53.:20:57.

helps those who for whatever reason cannot work to get the policy right.

:20:57.:21:02.

That is what is important. I think all this Blairite obsession of

:21:02.:21:07.

image is rather sickening. What about the talk of rebellious

:21:07.:21:11.

behaviour hastening the time of the House of Lords? There is no need

:21:11.:21:18.

for a great reform of the House of Lords, unless you address the

:21:18.:21:21.

question of the power to the House of Lords. At the moment the powers

:21:22.:21:26.

are minimal. It is doing its best and you saw last night, did a very

:21:26.:21:32.

good job in checking the government where it had got something wrong.

:21:32.:21:36.

There is a strong case for increasing the powers of the second

:21:36.:21:45.

chamber, as in the United States, more like two houses which have

:21:45.:21:49.

roughly equal powers. If you are going to have that you both have to

:21:50.:21:53.

be democratically elected, no doubt about that. If that is not on offer

:21:53.:21:56.

there will be no increase whatever in the minimal powers of the House

:21:56.:22:01.

of Lords. All you can do is get people of calibre, people who have

:22:01.:22:06.

the Independent -- independence that comes from life Kenya and let

:22:06.:22:10.

them do their best. A six defeats this year and still don't eerie,

:22:10.:22:14.

not going well for the government in the second chamber. Could this

:22:14.:22:17.

be heavier strengthen the Government's intention to put flesh

:22:17.:22:24.

through reform -- behaviour. For the House of Lords the

:22:24.:22:29.

coalition has threatened to be guilty of sweeping away appointed

:22:29.:22:32.

Piers and having hundreds of them thrown out. For as long as there

:22:32.:22:36.

has been House of Lords there has been those keen to be supported.

:22:36.:22:41.

For Nick Clegg it is to be polished for a modern democratic age.

:22:41.:22:46.

Prime Minister I -- and I are clear, we won the reforms to the upper

:22:46.:22:51.

chamber to take place in 2015. But while we know what we want to

:22:51.:22:55.

achieve, we are open-minded about how we get there. We propose an

:22:56.:23:01.

upper House made up of 300 members. Each eligible for a single term of

:23:01.:23:05.

three parliaments. One of the problems that has always dogged

:23:05.:23:09.

Lords reform is that it is like those domestic jobs you have that

:23:09.:23:13.

you might like to do, perhaps ought to do, but is this the time, there

:23:13.:23:16.

are more pressing things to be getting on with? One thing that

:23:16.:23:20.

might dog this specific attempt to reform the Lords is there is now

:23:20.:23:25.

public appetite for accountability, and for politicians that haven't

:23:25.:23:28.

just spent a great power lives doing this, but have done a real

:23:28.:23:32.

job before and -- spent their entire lives. That is the kind of

:23:33.:23:37.

peer that might be got rid of in an elected House. You are being fooled

:23:37.:23:42.

by the publicity some might like to persuade we are all independent,

:23:42.:23:45.

most of us are retired has been politicians, we do the work there.

:23:45.:23:49.

Of course there are some people with expertise that come in and

:23:50.:23:52.

vote on issues it they are interested in that they are not

:23:52.:23:55.

their most of the town. The lofty ideal is elections give

:23:55.:23:59.

even the most ordinary people a voice. Critics say party politics

:24:00.:24:04.

sucks Independent out of the system. There will be more independent of

:24:04.:24:09.

party them there is now, but we will have a responsibility to the

:24:09.:24:12.

public to listen to what they are saying. He could always get that if

:24:12.:24:16.

you have a strong party whip in the Commons -- you don't always get

:24:16.:24:19.

that. Controversial Bills are driven through without the voice of

:24:19.:24:25.

the public being heard. Are those against elections against reform?

:24:25.:24:29.

There is no way to sit, it is as bad as that, like Ryanair. We don't

:24:30.:24:35.

need more than about 600. There ought to be a method of retirement,

:24:35.:24:40.

with dignity, they should also be a way in which the laws can expel a

:24:40.:24:44.

member. All of those reforms of fine, just not elections.

:24:44.:24:49.

Definitely not. The Baroness will be policed, privately many things

:24:49.:24:56.

these reforms will fail. -- many think. The way it has been behaving

:24:56.:25:01.

recently, the Govan will not want some great big bills next year the

:25:01.:25:10.

Lords can forever -- the government. We are joined by the constitutional

:25:10.:25:13.

affairs minister Mark Harper. Are there voting for Christmas coming

:25:13.:25:17.

soon? The real issue and we have seen this in the debates this year,

:25:17.:25:22.

it does batter who makes the rules in this country and in the 21st

:25:22.:25:26.

century laws should be made by people who are elected. Most

:25:26.:25:30.

politicians in the House of Lords at the moment our party

:25:30.:25:33.

representatives, there are crossbenchers, the most a party

:25:33.:25:37.

representatives. The most common for my job is Member of Parliament.

:25:37.:25:40.

What about all the crossbenchers, the numbers of people who have had

:25:40.:25:45.

other lives and our expert in their areas? That is why that is a good

:25:45.:25:50.

argument put in our proposals we proposed an 80% elected House of

:25:50.:25:53.

Lords proposing to keep 20% crossbenchers so you can have that

:25:53.:25:57.

range of people who did come with a party political point.

:25:57.:26:01.

When will it happen, when will you bring this forward? We want to do

:26:01.:26:06.

it, the date is to make sure we get the first elections in 2015. When

:26:06.:26:10.

is the bill coming forward? As soon as we can. We have published a

:26:10.:26:13.

draft bill which is being scrutinised by a joint committee.

:26:13.:26:16.

We want to listen to what they have got to say, they are doing a

:26:16.:26:20.

serious job, then we will look at what they have to say and bring

:26:20.:26:26.

forward our proposals in due course. How helpful are these defeats?

:26:26.:26:32.

House of Lords clearly is involved in making the law. The message for

:26:32.:26:36.

the public is if you take the view these are important issues and they

:26:36.:26:40.

matter to people and clearly the big debate we have seen on the cap

:26:40.:26:44.

on benefits shows it really matters to people, everyday people in their

:26:44.:26:47.

everyday lives, those decisions should be taken by people elected,

:26:47.:26:52.

not appointed. We shouldn't be making these decisions. The law

:26:52.:27:02.
:27:02.:27:02.

doesn't have a lot of power -- the Lords. It is our job to improve the

:27:02.:27:07.

rather ramshackle Laws sent away from the Commons, made too quickly

:27:07.:27:11.

and thoughtlessly with unintended consequences. We can put that right

:27:11.:27:14.

and we can advise the Commons this would improve the bill and they

:27:14.:27:18.

very often agree. Did you do it with half the numbers? I think it

:27:18.:27:22.

is cutting it to find. It should be reformed, there are about 800

:27:22.:27:30.

members. 500 turn up regularly and take it seriously. 500 is good, and

:27:30.:27:34.

if everyone does find a seat, and they carry the most amazing range

:27:34.:27:41.

of expertise. They are not locked into short-term outlook, they can

:27:41.:27:47.

take a long-term view of how it will work. It is simply advising

:27:47.:27:52.

the Commons. You can push through this legislation, you said you are

:27:52.:27:56.

going to, so what is the problem? The Commons can get its own way and

:27:56.:28:01.

we are not proposing to change that, but the fact is, the Lords can

:28:01.:28:05.

block legislation if it wants to and can delay it. It can by being

:28:05.:28:09.

able to lay it force decisions on the Commons. This isn't just an

:28:09.:28:15.

advisory chamber, they don't just turn the offer an opinion, and say

:28:15.:28:19.

take-it-or-leave-it. You can get into some real arguments. This is

:28:19.:28:23.

about the law of our land, be made by people elected by the public.

:28:23.:28:26.

You would be happy if they were elected them they could be more

:28:26.:28:31.

forceful in terms of their disagreements. They would be more

:28:31.:28:36.

legitimate. If you ask the public, most people think people who make

:28:36.:28:40.

laws should be elected. Only 6% the public think it should stay as it

:28:40.:28:46.

is. If you have to Eddie Chambers, which one pulls rank? If you have

:28:46.:28:51.

elected Lords they will be far more assertive and wish to impose their

:28:51.:28:55.

will on the Commons and that will be a really important...

:28:55.:29:01.

You will have to bodies doing similar things, there will not be -

:29:01.:29:05.

- they will not be different -- easy to differentiate. We wanted

:29:05.:29:10.

you what is good about the Lords, a long, single, non-renewable terms.

:29:10.:29:14.

Different electoral system, and they will be elected entrenches,

:29:14.:29:21.

not at one go. The Parliament Act will ultimately mean done 2% elated

:29:21.:29:24.

House of Commons will get its own way that people in the Lords will

:29:24.:29:29.

be more legitimate. Do people care enough about this?

:29:29.:29:34.

The real issue is, do they care about what the Lords decide? This

:29:34.:29:38.

week was a good example, making decisions about important issues

:29:38.:29:42.

like the benefits cap which the government -- the population care

:29:42.:29:47.

about. Do the people that make the decisions, are they elected and

:29:47.:29:51.

listen to the public? While we have been debating these

:29:51.:29:55.

issues it has been first Minister's Questions in Edinburgh. The

:29:56.:29:59.

Holyrood parliament. We will be looking at that in a moment. We

:29:59.:30:09.
:30:09.:30:10.

will be looking at political You're watching the Daily Politics.

:30:10.:30:13.

We are joined by viewers in Scotland and have been watching

:30:13.:30:18.

First Minister's questions from Hollywood. Alex Salmond has been

:30:18.:30:21.

uttering questions on the future of prosperity or otherwise of an

:30:21.:30:27.

independent Scotland. -- answering questions. The reality is that

:30:27.:30:31.

people of this country want confidence in their pensions, their

:30:32.:30:35.

mortgages and their future. Scotland would emerge as an

:30:35.:30:41.

independent country with the 6th highest wealth per head in the

:30:41.:30:43.

Organisation of economic co- operation and Development. That in

:30:43.:30:48.

itself is not the argument for independence. The argument for

:30:48.:30:51.

Independent is self-determination. But given we would be the 6th most

:30:51.:30:54.

prosperous country in the developed world, most people in Scotland will

:30:54.:30:59.

have some degree of confidence in Scotland's ability not just to

:30:59.:31:04.

survive, but prosper as a socially just, economically progressive

:31:04.:31:12.

society. We can now talk to Ascot and political editor. -- out

:31:12.:31:16.

Scotland political editor. It seems that despite the fact meeting still

:31:16.:31:19.

have to go ahead with Westminster politicians, Alex Salmond has gone

:31:19.:31:24.

ahead and published his preferred question anyway, is that a tactic?

:31:24.:31:29.

He is trying to steer matters in his way. The way I think this is

:31:29.:31:32.

going to go is that Alex Salmond is adamant about the timing, he once

:31:33.:31:37.

the referendum in the autumn of 2014. I think he wants -- will get

:31:37.:31:42.

his way. The only way the British government can print that is to

:31:42.:31:49.

hold a referendum of their own, and they don't want to do that. I think

:31:49.:31:53.

Alex Salmond get his weight on autumn 2014 but the UK government

:31:53.:31:59.

get their way on a single question. Alex Salmond wants that single

:31:59.:32:04.

question on independence, the wording will be a straightforward

:32:04.:32:08.

question. He wants the idea of a back-up question, the UK government

:32:08.:32:13.

says no to that. The UK government hold the strings to a large extent,

:32:13.:32:17.

and Alex Salmond except that if he wants a referendum on independence,

:32:17.:32:24.

he has to get back to trade off. Alex Salmond will get his date, the

:32:24.:32:28.

UK government get their questions. So it sounds like everybody is

:32:28.:32:33.

happy? There is a lot of talking to go! The concept of happiness in

:32:33.:32:41.

Scottish politics, they don't really go together! Quite right!

:32:41.:32:46.

They don't often go together! So when other talks scheduled with

:32:46.:32:53.

the Prime Minister? They are having discussions tomorrow, but the

:32:53.:32:58.

secretary of state unfortunately has chickenpox will stop my

:32:58.:33:01.

sympathy to him, I hope he gets better, but it has been deferred to

:33:01.:33:06.

next week. After those preliminary discussions, we will then have

:33:06.:33:14.

discussions between Alex Salmond and the Prime Minister. Thank you.

:33:14.:33:19.

We will be coming back a lot, don't go away! A lot more to come there!

:33:19.:33:23.

If you're young and looking for work, think you will know it is

:33:23.:33:27.

almost as hard to get work experience as to get an actual job.

:33:27.:33:31.

The demand is so high up to companies are charging people for

:33:31.:33:37.

work experience. That striker you pay for it! Youngsters often paying

:33:37.:33:43.

more than �100 a day, so that is going to help you if you come from

:33:43.:33:49.

an ordinary background, isn't it! That is going to help social

:33:49.:33:55.

mobility a lot. With even MPs using free labour dressed up as work

:33:56.:33:59.

experience, our Sunday politics West reporter has been

:33:59.:34:03.

investigating. Students know how important it is

:34:03.:34:07.

to get work experience. Without it, you have basically little or no

:34:07.:34:12.

chance of getting a job. So how far would they go? Would you pay to get

:34:12.:34:19.

work experience? Not sure about that! Personally, no, I don't pick

:34:19.:34:26.

it is really worth it, doing something they want you to do.

:34:26.:34:30.

it was needed to get into the job, then yes. Because that is the only

:34:30.:34:36.

way to get into it. This Somerset company takes a fee for putting

:34:36.:34:43.

people in touch with small businesses. They will provide

:34:43.:34:46.

experience and training so long as you pay for it. A we're providing

:34:46.:34:50.

people with an opportunity to put information on their CV. If you

:34:50.:34:54.

want to get work experience for a large company or a bank, it is

:34:54.:34:59.

reasonable that these multinationals have a

:34:59.:35:02.

responsibility and will provide this training for free. If you look

:35:02.:35:07.

at smaller companies, where you have one or two people in the

:35:07.:35:08.

business, typically they don't provide training because they don't

:35:09.:35:14.

have the money or resources. does run other businesses. If you

:35:14.:35:17.

want experience as a copywriter with him committee will have to pay.

:35:17.:35:23.

You think you're worth that person paying that much a day? I don't

:35:23.:35:29.

really think �130 is frankly enough for somebody to get the kind of

:35:29.:35:34.

experience they can get here, to be honest. Graham is a photographer in

:35:34.:35:40.

Gloucestershire. You can get a day with him for �95. What they will

:35:40.:35:46.

get is my experience of 35 years in this industry, where I can guide

:35:46.:35:50.

them and showed them the aspects of the industry that might be relevant.

:35:50.:35:53.

Also, they will put more value on it if they have invested some of

:35:53.:35:56.

the money into that. It is not the sort of thing I'm doing to make

:35:56.:36:00.

money out of, because I would normally charge a lot more than

:36:00.:36:05.

that for a day. But critics say paying for work experience means it

:36:05.:36:09.

is not open to everyone. De Deputy Prime Minister himself says

:36:09.:36:13.

internships call-back social mobility, even though Westminster

:36:13.:36:20.

is awash with them. All political parties have been running offices

:36:20.:36:24.

on the efforts of underpaid or none paid people for far too long.

:36:24.:36:28.

MP has gone further. Paying out of her own pocket to help youngsters

:36:28.:36:33.

get on the jobs ladder. I do have a large number of people, not in

:36:33.:36:37.

terms, they are work experience. I have had over 40 young people

:36:37.:36:41.

through my office doing work experience in the last year. I pay

:36:41.:36:45.

for their lunches and travel out of my personal money, not the

:36:45.:36:51.

taxpayers' money, not party money, it is my own pocket. I think it is

:36:51.:36:54.

a fantastic opportunity for young people to actually see what it is

:36:54.:36:59.

like. For the student, then, some tough decisions ahead, not least

:36:59.:37:03.

how much they would pay for work experience.

:37:03.:37:06.

We are joined by the Lib Dem and Pete Annette Brooke, and the

:37:06.:37:14.

director of the Institute of economic Affairs. You pay your

:37:14.:37:20.

intones? I do, I have an in first - - advertisement, I should say that

:37:20.:37:23.

money is coming out of the public purse, because it comes out of my

:37:24.:37:29.

staff budget. You charge it as part of your expenses? Per person

:37:29.:37:33.

becomes a salaried person within the House of Commons. But those who

:37:33.:37:37.

are going to be been turns working in your constituency, did they get

:37:37.:37:46.

paid? A not necessarily come up we have a mix of people. If we have a

:37:46.:37:50.

full-blown in turn, that is always within a training programme, so we

:37:50.:37:54.

make sure there is a support package around. Do they get the

:37:54.:38:01.

minimum wage? We have to make sure we cover expenses a folly. The if

:38:01.:38:05.

you are from a poor background, you cannot afford to take that.

:38:05.:38:11.

have to live. Expenses alone, you are already narrowing down the

:38:11.:38:16.

social final of people who can do this? I am individual try to do the

:38:16.:38:22.

best I can come up because I passionately believe in giving the

:38:22.:38:28.

opportunity to young people, and all young people, at that. So I do

:38:28.:38:33.

my best within the context that I can, and for Westminster, I think

:38:33.:38:40.

since the end of 2008, I have been advertising, only at minimum wage,

:38:40.:38:45.

I wish there could be more, but I do think that gives real

:38:45.:38:49.

opportunity for young people to give a bit of a mix. But Nick Clegg,

:38:49.:38:53.

who has made a big deal of this, because of the potential

:38:53.:38:59.

implications for social mobility, he benefited hugely, because he's

:38:59.:39:06.

father gave him a placement in a finish back -- in a Finnish bank.

:39:07.:39:12.

The Lib Dems are still advertising for internas, but with only travel

:39:12.:39:19.

expenses. We have a code of practice, and everybody is being

:39:19.:39:24.

encouraged to do what they can. All power to his elbow, he has

:39:24.:39:31.

recognised he had advantages. I can only talk for myself. But you have

:39:31.:39:35.

made this an issue, and you were doing the best you can. Have you

:39:36.:39:39.

made representations to your party to stop being hypocritical, and

:39:39.:39:44.

practise what Nick Clegg preaches in his speeches? My party knows my

:39:44.:39:48.

views are very well! I have a long background of supporting young

:39:48.:39:53.

people, particularly in business as well. I realised today that I have

:39:53.:39:58.

supported Young Enterprise Inns called for over 40 years. We need

:39:58.:40:04.

to move forward, and Nick Clegg has done the right thing. So why are

:40:04.:40:09.

you only advertising for them getting travel expenses only? Your

:40:09.:40:14.

party put you up today as a spokesperson for your party.

:40:14.:40:21.

need to look at the context within all particles -- parties. We are

:40:21.:40:26.

not auctioning places within my party, that I'm sure of. Work

:40:26.:40:30.

experience and internships, when they first started, they were seen

:40:30.:40:35.

as a way of getting people into the work environment, getting a sense

:40:35.:40:38.

of what they want to do. They have actually turned out to be a gift

:40:38.:40:44.

for the privilege, haven't they? Well-connected folk get their kids

:40:44.:40:47.

in, and they pay for them because they can afford to, and did you

:40:47.:40:54.

have just come out of a decent comprehensive in Scunthorpe, you

:40:54.:40:59.

have no chance of getting on to this gravy-train -- if you have a.

:40:59.:41:02.

I basically agree with you, if you're well connected and have

:41:02.:41:06.

affluent parents, when you leave school, you are going to be in a

:41:06.:41:10.

better position than if you haven't and you have just left a

:41:10.:41:14.

comprehensive school in Scunthorpe. I think that while we don't want to

:41:14.:41:18.

see nepotism to that degree, I think Nick Clegg is right, we have

:41:18.:41:23.

got to be a bit careful before we are against networking. At the

:41:23.:41:26.

Institute of economic Affairs, we get dozens of youngsters saying,

:41:26.:41:31.

can I come in for a few weeks over the summer? We have to turn down

:41:31.:41:38.

most of them the space reasons. It would wait with me if somebody said,

:41:38.:41:43.

this chap is really good, I think it is reasonable to take -- bear in

:41:43.:41:50.

mind those things. We have to have a self- denying ordinance in that

:41:50.:41:55.

regard. But do you? You cannot allow them away in? We pick on

:41:55.:42:03.

quality. You can go to our website, open advertisements. Do you pay?

:42:03.:42:06.

You have the same problem. We have a real problem with the minimum

:42:06.:42:12.

wage, which I think is also helping affluent people. Why is that?

:42:12.:42:18.

Because it is not worth me paying �6.80 an hour, we would rather not

:42:18.:42:21.

have an there than pay than that amount, but that means we have to

:42:21.:42:26.

pay than 0. If you have affluent parents, you can probably afford

:42:26.:42:32.

that. You are living at home in Surrey. We cannot pay them at three

:42:32.:42:40.

or �4 an hour. I think one should make every effort to pay. I admit

:42:40.:42:43.

there is a bias with regard to my Westminster position, because the

:42:43.:42:48.

person has to be able to live in London. I don't know why you were

:42:48.:42:51.

mentioning comprehensives, I'm very proud of my daughters went to the

:42:51.:42:54.

local comprehensive, but it is particularly with the schools that

:42:54.:42:59.

we need to start this business, we need business opportunities locally

:42:59.:43:03.

for those that can't travel, and full engagement across the board

:43:03.:43:06.

with education and business, something I have always tried to

:43:06.:43:10.

make an important thing. We are looking at the structural problem

:43:10.:43:13.

of youth unemployment and we have got to find those opportunities, I

:43:13.:43:16.

think we should all be pulling together to do the best we can.

:43:16.:43:20.

Hazel Blears has come up with this scheme whereby she has raised a lot

:43:20.:43:24.

of money through her own efforts, and through the help of some people,

:43:24.:43:28.

they have brought in a lot of people who were not in turns, they

:43:28.:43:35.

are working for MPs, they are on a decent wage, the living wage, which

:43:35.:43:39.

is more than the minimum wage, and getting some expenses, and they

:43:39.:43:43.

help of accommodation. They have brought in people from all sorts of

:43:43.:43:46.

backgrounds that you wouldn't expect to be doing these jobs.

:43:46.:43:52.

Isn't that the way to go? I think it is one of many ways to go. Very

:43:52.:43:56.

laudable, and I praised the scheme greatly. We are trying to make as

:43:56.:44:01.

wide access as possible, and you try all routes. Are you ashamed to

:44:01.:44:07.

the dutiful grandson work experience? I paid my grandson!

:44:07.:44:11.

he had to be your grandson! I paid him, and if there are so many

:44:11.:44:17.

shades of opinion, and variables in this matter, it opens up all sorts

:44:17.:44:21.

of injustices, and opportunities. There is the opportunity for

:44:21.:44:25.

someone who is well connected by family, when I needed some help,

:44:25.:44:29.

and a paid him more than the minimum wage, but on the other hand,

:44:29.:44:34.

why should companies not pay their employees? If they are using people

:44:34.:44:38.

as employees, they should pay them. If they can't afford to pay them,

:44:38.:44:42.

shouldn't be employing them. they're not really employees if

:44:42.:44:46.

they are coming in as work experience at? It is called low

:44:46.:44:53.

level secretarial help, it can be very happy for. -- helpful. I can

:44:53.:44:59.

see it looks like exploitation, but here, we put on a huge range of

:44:59.:45:03.

events for our students, with professors the road leading

:45:03.:45:07.

academics, we send them away... That is an apprenticeship. Should

:45:07.:45:17.
:45:17.:45:19.

be charged for that? Or would it be There is the whole scale of

:45:19.:45:22.

apprenticeships, a young people deserve opportunities, they don't

:45:22.:45:25.

deserve to buy into it because they have got rich parents.

:45:25.:45:31.

We will be fit there. We have come a little while from

:45:31.:45:35.

the days when the Tories at their fund-raising events optioned work

:45:35.:45:39.

experience. Thank you. How would you feel about paying

:45:39.:45:47.

your tax if you have every hardened pad well spent? Interesting. The MP,

:45:47.:45:51.

Ben Gummer, thinks we are being set -- kept in the dark and he is

:45:51.:45:58.

talking about getting an itemised and a statement.

:45:58.:46:01.

What I propose is very simple. The government should tell us how much

:46:01.:46:08.

we pay tax and where it goes. He should do so as close as possible

:46:08.:46:11.

to the Chancellor's Budget statement and to the end of the tax

:46:11.:46:15.

year, and her Majesty's Customs and revenue should provide to each

:46:15.:46:18.

person who pays income tax and national insurance statement to

:46:18.:46:22.

that in fact -- to that effect. We would not think about paying a bill

:46:22.:46:26.

in a supermarket or setting up a mobile phone to erect them that if

:46:26.:46:30.

we did receive an itemised receipt in change -- mobile phone direct

:46:30.:46:35.

debit. We get nothing, a notable account of how much we have paid,

:46:35.:46:39.

no detail whatsoever of where it has gone. I would say, there are

:46:39.:46:44.

far more important issues we should be changing about the way

:46:44.:46:49.

expenditure in this country is made, is revealed to the taxpayers. Not

:46:49.:46:54.

least because in this House we do an extremely bad job of analysing

:46:54.:47:04.
:47:04.:47:05.

We are joined by Ben Gummer he we saw in that clip introducing his

:47:05.:47:11.

bill and Ben page. Ben Gummer, Festival, it would be fascinating

:47:11.:47:15.

to have an itemised breakdown but wouldn't it have the consequence

:47:15.:47:19.

nobody would want to pay it when they saw where it all went?

:47:19.:47:23.

never have done samples they are amazed by some of the things, the

:47:23.:47:27.

differences in where the money goes. Someone on average earnings,

:47:27.:47:32.

�26,000 per year, �2,100 goes to pensions and benefits, �1,000 to

:47:32.:47:38.

the NHS, and then roads and railways get about �70 each. That

:47:38.:47:42.

kind of massive differential people don't recognise if they come out of

:47:42.:47:45.

it straight away without actually seeing the tax statement. What

:47:45.:47:51.

people get best upset about? Is it the actual areas or the amounts?

:47:51.:47:55.

Both. A lot of the things that we pick up on the doorstep as Members

:47:55.:47:59.

of Parliament that all the money is going to Africa and Europe, Trident,

:47:59.:48:02.

whatever somebody's bed there is, it turned out to be miniscule

:48:02.:48:06.

amounts of money compared with the big guns by pensions, aged hundred

:48:06.:48:11.

pounds and rising. The government will not go for that, seeing

:48:11.:48:20.

itemise bills so people can figure out who is getting what? President

:48:20.:48:24.

Obama has done it in the White House you can go online and get a

:48:24.:48:28.

receipt. Number 10 said they were very supportive and the Chancellor

:48:28.:48:31.

was behind it to a good happen quickly.

:48:31.:48:36.

What public opinion be behind it? They would, they like the idea of

:48:37.:48:40.

transparency. People always say if you're looking at their tax bill

:48:40.:48:43.

and you can look at local authority council tax, they absolutely want

:48:43.:48:47.

to know, it is one of the things they are most interested in, where

:48:47.:48:50.

does it go? As Ben has rarely illustrated people are deluded

:48:50.:48:53.

about how much goes into different areas.

:48:53.:48:58.

We do get that breakdown from local councils and a good read it

:48:58.:49:03.

carefully enough, actually, to see. -- and they did read it. Would

:49:03.:49:09.

people take enough notice? everybody would look at it but a

:49:09.:49:13.

lot more people would. One difference is in a country I leave

:49:13.:49:17.

relied on centralised taxation you cancel tax isn't that much of your

:49:17.:49:20.

income. This is a large part of your income and they would be very

:49:20.:49:24.

interested. Maybe you could tick the box, would you be allowed to

:49:24.:49:30.

move it around? Would there be any option? What

:49:30.:49:32.

would you like to see? A I would like to withdraw my contribution to

:49:32.:49:38.

Trident, he however small it might be, not keen on war, I would like

:49:38.:49:42.

money back, happy about roads and the NHS and education. Steamy as

:49:42.:49:48.

much as you like on those issues. What would follow from the popular

:49:49.:49:53.

engagement would be you can actually specify and you can ask to

:49:53.:49:56.

opt out of certain payments and begin to shape how your money is

:49:57.:50:01.

spent, a dead pig is possible but am sure people long to do that once

:50:01.:50:09.

Basie -- I do not think is possible. People to make decisions, and half

:50:09.:50:13.

the population just say it this is ultimately what I choose

:50:13.:50:18.

politicians to do for may. If you force people to make really tough

:50:18.:50:24.

choices, the sort of policies Cabinet have to make -- the sort of

:50:24.:50:31.

choices Cabinet have to make, half were not to it. -- will not do it.

:50:31.:50:36.

Even when asked to bridges spending and they will, people will put it

:50:36.:50:40.

up on things they care about like young people. It would be

:50:40.:50:43.

interesting for the government did you see where people in terms of

:50:43.:50:46.

numbers would like to spend more money, perhaps, as well as less

:50:46.:50:51.

money or no money. We are already having discussion. It actually

:50:52.:50:57.

generate democratic discussion. Politics are talking -- but you

:50:57.:51:02.

just talking about Chileans, that his understanding -- people talking

:51:02.:51:09.

about trillions, that is out side the understanding of many. On the

:51:09.:51:13.

issues the House of Lords are looking out, billions of pounds,

:51:13.:51:23.
:51:23.:51:23.

taxpayers can make a real understanding of what it DLA means.

:51:23.:51:29.

Will result in people paying -- paying less tax? One anxiety, the

:51:29.:51:34.

high proportion of pensions bulkiness print-out, is that they

:51:34.:51:37.

might create a backlash against the old. I take people to say let's cut

:51:37.:51:41.

the pensions, they are old. It is an expanding part of that

:51:41.:51:44.

population, you think it would be understandable. Younger people

:51:45.:51:48.

might feel too much of my money is going to these old people, they

:51:48.:51:56.

don't deserve it. They don't vote. It depends how you feel about young

:51:56.:52:03.

people. The sixteen-year-old, you have got to regenerate an interest

:52:03.:52:08.

in the politics. How quickly do you think it might come in? He said it

:52:08.:52:13.

could be adopted, you sounded optimistic? It is very easy to do.

:52:13.:52:19.

Very cheap. Cheaper than what has good does it every week with its

:52:19.:52:22.

Clubcard members. Incredibly easy to do this, personal statement, the

:52:22.:52:27.

technology is there. Their sponsor the have Repsol it is free, he

:52:27.:52:31.

could happen within months. -- let's sponsored the envelope so it

:52:31.:52:36.

is free. You have got it all worked out.

:52:36.:52:40.

Have you enjoyed listening to the velvety tones of our guests, Joan

:52:40.:52:47.

Bakewell? It has been reported she is too posh for some programmes. I

:52:47.:52:50.

thought she would definitely be to push for this lot here. She has

:52:50.:52:55.

been told her accent means she will not get work in the BBC. I don't

:52:55.:53:00.

believe that for a moment. Anyway, does it matter how you speak these

:53:00.:53:08.

days? As a political commentator or politician? Here is our report on

:53:08.:53:12.

political pipes. In this game voice is everything,

:53:12.:53:18.

but some politicians have had a few vocal difficulties. Tony Blair knew

:53:18.:53:23.

what Joan Bakewell has been talking about, he famously dropped his

:53:23.:53:33.
:53:33.:53:41.

It is it is a wonderful pleasure to be back here with you will.

:53:41.:53:44.

Research from Canada shows voters like their leaders to have deep

:53:44.:53:48.

voices. Alison Margaret Thatcher learned from her speech coach,

:53:48.:53:52.

compare and contrast these clips from the beginning and end -- a

:53:52.:53:57.

lesson. We must now stand together and fight for the things in which

:53:57.:54:00.

we all believe, they are more important than any of us

:54:00.:54:05.

individually. We wanted the European Parliament to be the

:54:05.:54:10.

democratic body of the community. The commission to be the executive,

:54:10.:54:17.

and the Council of Ministers to be All were no amount of voice

:54:17.:54:24.

coaching could help. -- could help one of her successors. Do not

:54:24.:54:29.

underestimate the determination of a quiet man. Critics of the Labour

:54:29.:54:32.

leader Ed Miliband say it is not volume that is a problem for him,

:54:32.:54:37.

but the fact he sounds quite nasal. He has eased -- even had surgery on

:54:37.:54:43.

his nose. He claims that was for breathing problems. I had a

:54:43.:54:45.

deviated septum and it needed repositioning, typical Labour

:54:45.:54:55.
:54:55.:54:57.

leader, as soon as he is elected As they don't say, all politics is

:54:57.:55:05.

local. We are joined by the first coach,

:55:05.:55:09.

Barbara Berkery, who worked on the film, The King's Speech. -- a voice

:55:09.:55:15.

coach. I didn't work on that film, but are normally work with Geoffrey

:55:15.:55:25.
:55:25.:55:25.

Rush, I worked on Shakespeare in Love. We would eschew the research,

:55:25.:55:29.

we have got too many, anyway. Politicians who have changed their

:55:29.:55:35.

accents most. Margaret Thatcher. She had elocution lessons at school.

:55:35.:55:40.

She demanded as herself. Probably to get rid of the Midlands accent,

:55:41.:55:45.

Grantham accent. Then it was thought to become too posh, and she

:55:45.:55:53.

had voice lessons to change back. The thing about her, within the

:55:53.:55:58.

time period she was, she would have had a normal at some when she came

:55:58.:56:02.

from then everybody tries to lose their accents as they climbed up

:56:02.:56:08.

the greasy pole. Everybody. You did that, didn't you? My mother wanted

:56:08.:56:13.

me to get on the world and she semi- to elocution lessons.

:56:13.:56:20.

were in Stockport. -- sent me. Stockport, south Lancashire.

:56:20.:56:28.

Certainly not posh. Why are people who have elocution lessons like

:56:28.:56:35.

Joan Bakewell or as Sue Lawley or that Arctic critic we had on. --

:56:35.:56:39.

art critic. How do the end up sounding more posh than posh

:56:39.:56:43.

people? Because they are learning something and it is not becoming

:56:43.:56:48.

part of their being. When I work with actors we spend a lot of time

:56:48.:56:53.

each -- learning each sound individually, where you plated,

:56:53.:56:59.

where your tongue does so it becomes part of you. When it

:56:59.:57:02.

becomes on top of you, painted on, it sounds unnatural because it has

:57:02.:57:06.

not become an integrated part of you.

:57:06.:57:11.

Do politicians consciously still change their accents? There is such

:57:11.:57:18.

a variety now on broadcasting does it matter as much? I think it does.

:57:18.:57:22.

Add 1 point it was all regional accents which is very popular, --

:57:22.:57:29.

at one point. It is all fashion, it goes on all the time. We had Gordon

:57:29.:57:32.

Brown when he became Prime Minister, he tried to lose a lot of his

:57:32.:57:37.

Scottish accent. Absolutely remarkable difference. I never

:57:37.:57:47.

noticed that. You have never tried to lose yours? No. The Scottish and

:57:47.:57:52.

Welsh a privileged as it is an a loud accent you have. The English

:57:52.:58:02.

cannot distinguish Scottish accent. This is to do with class, deciding

:58:02.:58:08.

which lay you come from and got his people .. It is pretty clear Alex

:58:08.:58:16.

Ferguson is not an aristocrat. is to do with the words he uses.

:58:16.:58:19.

Most of the aristocrats left Scotland a long time ago and they

:58:19.:58:24.

didn't look after their people. are reading the long -- a long

:58:24.:58:29.

history books, they are everywhere. The Duke of the glue, Duke of

:58:29.:58:37.

Hamilton pulled up you go Paisley., We could do that this all day.

:58:37.:58:47.
:58:47.:58:52.

Thank you to our guests, thank you I will be back tonight with Alain

:58:52.:58:55.

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