Browse content similar to 01/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, has withdrawn all diplomatic | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
staff from its embassy in Syria and suspended its services. The move | :00:46. | :00:54. | |
comes amid esculating violence in the country. -- escalating. UN | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
diplomats have backed a resolution condemning the Syrian government | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
for human rights violations. We'll be talking to the former Foreign | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
Secretary, Lord Owen. We'll be talking to the son of | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
businessman Christopher Tappin, who was extradited from the UK to the | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
US over arms dealing charges. Is Nick Clegg getting into deeper | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
water over the Government's health reforms? Liberal Democrat activists | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
say they'll propose a motion at next week's spring conference | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
calling for them to be scrapped. And to tax or not to tax. 500 | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
business leaders call for the 50 p rate to be scrapped, claiming it's | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
damaging the economy. Are they All that in the next half hour, and | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
with us for the whole programme today is the businessman and doctor, | :01:36. | :01:44. | |
Chai Patel. Welcome to the programme. Nice to be here. | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
First today, let's talk about welfare because the Government's | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
Welfare Reform Bill, which introduces an annual cap on | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
benefits and overhauls many welfare payments, has passed its final | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
hurdle in Parliament. It has been hailed as an historic moment. But | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
do you agree with the Government that this is one step towards a | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
revolution in welfare? They have been trying to do this for a long | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
time so in that sense it is historic. They have been trying to | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
get the people abusing the system to not be doing it and that is the | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
right thing. We are capping this so that is the right thing. We are in | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
centre rising and motivating people to work to earn more whilst taking | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
away some of the disincentives. All of those are very positive. | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
agree that it will lead to a reduction in workless nurse in that | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
sense? And it will be an incentive for people to work? Looking at some | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
of the areas of complaint around the changes to disability | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
allowances, and housing benefit, those fears are still there. Those | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
are my two caveats. It is great to incentive vies for jobs, but this | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
is coming at a time when jobs are very hard. We will have to see how | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
that is managed and how these people train. Otherwise it will | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
take something away without putting something in. I am particularly | :03:02. | :03:11. | |
concerned with where people have disabilities. They can't be | :03:11. | :03:20. | |
penalised by an arbitrary cap. you think there should be more | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
allowances made for people either making the transition or should be | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
getting more money than 26,000? it to work effectively, that is | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
what is needed to happen otherwise we will have an outcry M we will | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
once again be discussing the bits that did not work rather than the | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
broad stream of this change, which is obviously the right way to go. | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
It is all in the execution. If we executed in the right way -- if we | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
don't execute it in the right way, we will be discussing the failures. | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
The Leveson Inquiry has been back in the spotlight this week and it's | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
been the relationship between the police and the media that has taken | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
centre stage. On Monday, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers | :04:00. | :04:10. | |
:04:10. | :04:12. | ||
gave a damning account of illegal payments at the Sun newspaper. | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
There also appears to have been a culture at the Sun of illegal | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
payments and systems have been created to facilitate those | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
payments whilst hiding the identity of the officials receiving the | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
money. The e-mails indicate that payments to sources were openly | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
referred to within the Sun. In which case, the source is not named, | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
but rather the category public official is identified rather than | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
her name. Also on Monday, the former Deputy Prime Minister John | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
Prescott waded into the debate. He argued there was more than enough | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
evidence in the original hacking investigation to show that it was | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
more than just one or two people involved. There's all sorts of | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
evidence we know about. There's a blue book with all the names. It | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
wasn't just one rogue reporter, it was more. They have all this | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
information, now they are saying we only got it through another source. | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
That is having told the courts, basically, and misleading the first | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
inquiry. The information was there, whether it is payments to be made, | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
names to be used. How much evidence do you want unless you don't want | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
to look for it? The inquiry also heard a personal account from | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
Jacqui Hames, who's a former police officer and Crimewatch presenter. | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
She explained on Tuesday how her family were put under surveillance | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
by the News of the World after her then husband, also a police officer, | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
reopened a murder inquiry that had connections to a detective agency | :05:38. | :05:48. | |
:05:48. | :05:50. | ||
that itself had connections to the paper. In some ways, by coming here, | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
you stick your head above the parapet because you are angry and | :05:55. | :06:03. | |
distressed about what has happened. The impact on us, I think, is | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
important. It is very easy to compartmentalise people in as much | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
as celebrities have clearly suffered in this whole process, as | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
have many others. Sometimes it is easy to dismiss certain people | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
because they should be able to put up with it. But I don't think | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
anybody from any walk of life should have to put up with it. I | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
would hate to think of any other person in the future having to go | :06:31. | :06:41. | |
through what we have had 10 years off. Peter Clark was a deputy | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
assistant commissioner at the Met during the first investigation. He | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
was the officer who decided not to continue with the inquiry into | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
hacking and he said he would do the same again. He said the | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
investigation was stopped because of pressure on resources due to | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
ongoing terrorism operations and a lack of co-operation from News | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
International. The minute she died of whether there was circumstantial | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
evidence against the certain journalist is a minor consideration | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
in comparison with the consideration of what poses a | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
threat to the lives of the British public. Invasions of privacy are | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
odious, obviously, they can be very distressing and at times they can | :07:22. | :07:31. | |
be illegal. But to put it bluntly, they don't kill you, terrorists do. | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
Brian Paddick is with me now, and joining me from Cambridge, the | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
director of the Society of Editors and a former News of the World | :07:39. | :07:47. | |
journalist. Do you by Mr Clarke's reason why it was right not to | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
continue the investigation? afraid not. Whilst he might have | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
been under pressure and the officers in the anti-terrorist | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
branch might have been under pressure, there are 45,000 police | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
officers in the Metropolitan Police, I'm sure they could have rounded up | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
a couple of dozen. One of the reasons they did not proceed was | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
because News International did not co-operate. That means if you catch | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
me with a bag of swag coming out of someone's house and I said yeah, | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
well, you caught me but are not co- operating, you will let me off. | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
That is not a good excuse, I don't think. Are you confident now, under | :08:23. | :08:31. | |
Sue Akers, that there's a proper independent inquiry determined to | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
get the truth? I have got the advantage over most people in that | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
I know Sue Akers personally. She is of the highest integrity, I would | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
not doubt her for a minute. Unfortunately a lot of members of | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
the public don't know her that well. To have a combination of a | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
committee set up by NewsCorp, the parent company of News | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
International, the investigating themselves, working with the Met | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
Police against whom all sorts of allegations have been made, corrupt | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
payments, not investigating it properly first time round, I don't | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
see how the ordinary member of the public can have confidence that | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
that combination will get to the bottom of things. Perception is | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
important, but from what you've said, and you said you know Sue | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
Akers, that perception may be understandable but is wrong. Well... | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
The difficulty is everybody has bosses. Sue Akers has bosses. What | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
does -- what do her bosses say if she were to come up with something | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
absolutely horrible that was very detrimental to the Met Police and | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
News International? Would she be allowed to say it? She is welcome | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
to come on this programme and say it! One of the benefits of a free | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
society is if your bosses don't let you say it, there's other ways of | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
getting it out. You heard in the evidence on Monday that you gave. | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
You said you had a working relationship with journalists. We | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
have to be careful not to stray into a necessary territory. Having | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
policeman on a retainer, clearly wrong. Paying police for stories, | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
Ron. Speaking to police to get a story, not wrong. No. What I said | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
did Lord Leveson was an acid test of whether the police officer or | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
public official was giving the right thing in the public interest | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
was whether they were prepared to put their jobs at risk and not be | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
paid for that information. As soon as you get into a situation where I | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
will only tell you if you pay me for it, fantastic cast doubt on | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
whether the story is in the public interest. You had lunch with the | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
Guardian and with the Daily Mirror and the Financial Times. You said | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
the Mirror was more an audience with Piers Morgan. I'm grateful you | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
should have been for it as well, many of us would like an audience! | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
You only dealt with left-wing papers. No. That is the three you | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
named. The right-wing papers didn't like me so I never got invited. | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
They wouldn't even pay you. Absolute Lee not. Let's speak to | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
Bob Thatcher will. Didst journalism in some trouble? Are we in danger, | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
as Sue Akers rightly get to the bottom of wrongdoing that seems to | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
have happened at News International, that we are going to interfere with | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
what can also be a healthy relationship between police and | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
journalists? I think that is obviously the danger. What we have | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
to do is try to let Sue Akers do her job and get the evidence out. | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
What we are hearing all the time at the moment are allegations, | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
suggestions, what it may seem like. In the end, we need to know the | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
full scale of what has gone on before we can make final decisions. | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
But already, my fear is that we will have police officers at all | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
levels saying they can never speak to a journalist again or at least | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
be frightened off, having a chilling effect on those kinds of | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
relationships, which are vitally important. After all, the | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
relationship between the police and the media is not just for the two | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
of them, it is on behalf of the public because the media is simply | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
a conduit. We already have a situation where I believe the | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
police tell the public far too little and the press, in fact, the | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
media generally, reveals far too little. That is the thing we have | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
to avoid. Let me put that to Brian Paddick. That is absolutely right. | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
There's not enough openness or transparency. Don't you want Aironi | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
to be formal relations in meetings between journalists and police? You | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
testified it to be on a formal basis. You will not tell us | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
anything on a formal basis. That is about what is going on at the most | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
senior levels way you have senior police officers were there to | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
investigate a newspaper or not and meetings with newspaper editors. I | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
had always spoken openly and freely with journalist when I was in the | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
police, it is very important to do so. Sometimes you might have to say | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
things that your boss was not too happy about. That is healthy, but | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
when it gets into corrupt payments, when it gets into newspaper editors | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
and senior police officers being so close that went unlawful activity | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
is discovered, the police are reluctant to investigate it, it has | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
gone too far. We all know that journalists speak to the police and | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
quite often the police use journalists. That is partly the | :13:33. | :13:42. | |
basis of the Crimewatch programme. Every local newspaper... A lot of | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
local newspapers of bunging the local police station to be tipped | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
off about things that happens. That is the way of the world. Were you | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
not surprised at the industrial scale of the Sun's relationship | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
with the Met? You say surprised at the industrial scale. We haven't | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
seen the evidence yet. Sue Akers said that was happening. | :14:05. | :14:12. | |
understand. She was giving a briefing on the record, whereas | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
often it is the kind of briefing which are given to journalists of | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
the record. Suppose she's right. She does carry some authority. I | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
take your point that this is only the police investigation. Any of | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
that evidence has yet to be tested in court. Supposing she was right, | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
what would you make of it? Quite frankly, I think most journalists | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
would be astonished if it is of that sort of scale. Relationships | :14:38. | :14:45. | |
were there. As she mentioned, and it is perfectly reasonable for | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
journalists to by coppers a pie and a pint, was her phrase. Those | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
things have happened. I can remember many years ago when I was | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
at the News of the World, long before we had mobile phones I | :14:57. | :15:04. | |
hasten to add, I had very good relationships with very senior | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
officers at Scotland Yard, but at the same time, with other officers, | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
I was threatened with prosecution when we had uncovered the drugs | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
ring. I happened to have the drugs in my possession in order to take | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
them to an analyst and I was told the next time... Her a likely | :15:21. | :15:29. | |
story! For the idea about the relationships, just because you | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
have a relationship with senior officers... I don't believe they | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
would be so unprofessional not to prosecute someone if they saw | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
evidence, real evidence, of We had meetings between senior | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
people at News International and senior police officers at Scotland | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
Yard, whilst News International was under investigation. | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
Let me bring in Chai. I I think the more you look at this, the more you | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
begin to conclude, but you begin to feel there was an incredibly close, | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
almost incest uous relationship between News International and the | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
Metropolitan Police on the other that went up to some of the highest | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
levels? It doesn't meet the smell test. The facts are whatever they | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
are, but you clearly feel that this was way up and it wasn't just | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
happening - we are making the distinction here, it is not about | :16:30. | :16:37. | |
the relationships, we need more media input all of those are valid | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
points and the use of techniques and the cosiness. | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
It went to the extent of horse trading. | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
Horse trading now as well! It was reported that the horse was handed | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
back in worse shape than it had been given out. But that's another | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
matter! We are going to have to leave it there. Bob, I am surprised | :16:56. | :17:04. | |
you got away with that that story, but at least you are still out. I | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
am surprised that you got away with a pie and a pint! | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
It is one of the most difficult aisles on the political agenda, how | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
do we pay for the non medical needs of the elderly. It means things | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
like washing and eating a and a solution has I will lewded | :17:23. | :17:33. | |
politicians of all -- eluded politicians of all parties. We sent | :17:33. | :17:41. | |
David Thompson to fin out more. This is what social care looks like | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
in action. Music therapy for the residents of this elderly person's | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
home in North London. Mind you, here they call it a bit of a sing | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
song. The three main political parties | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
recognise that social care shouldn't be about politics, it is | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
about people and they have been talking to one another in an | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
attempt to find consensus. The only problem is, they tried that before | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
and it didn't end well. Before the last election, Labour | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
tried to get cross party agreement on this issue and this was the | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
result. So what's different this time? I think trying to get cross | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
party agreement three months before a general election is always more | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
difficult for obvious reasons than trying to get cross party long-term | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
agreement in the middle of a Parliament as we are now. I think | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
at this this stage it's better, these talks are better timed than | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
the talks just before the last general election. | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
As it happens, there is a plan on the table which has broad cross | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
party support. The the economist Andrew Dilnot put forward a set of | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
proposals on how social care should be funded. | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
He wants to see a cap of around �35,000 on the amount individuals | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
are expected to contribute with the Government meeting the rest. And he | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
wants the amount of savings someone can have before they have to pay | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
for help with washing, dressing and eating raised from over �23,000 to | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
�100,000. We should know in a few weeks | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
whether the Government will adopt these proposals. If they do, it | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
will cost �1.7 billion a year and money is tight. Which is something | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
that makes some people in the care sector nervous. The Government must | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
resist any temptation to go for a stop gap solution on care. We're | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
united in our belief and they say they are too that care is in crisis | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
and it needs reform. A sticking plaster won work. That's why -- | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
won't work, that's why we need need them to be bold and radical. | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
Some Conservatives think that tinkering at the edges is not an | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
option. In individual parts of the country | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
as experienced by individual families, there are documents of it | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
failing and it is failing often. That doesn't mean it fails | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
everywhere, it done, but it fails often and if we put in place | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
structures that work, we can reduce the number of failures. | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
But who wouldn't want that? The question is, is it affordable? | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
can't afford to support people in their own homes with eating, with | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
feeding, with toileting, with basic exercise and support. We would have | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
to think really strongly about whether that is a country we would | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
be proud to live in. We have to reframe and re-think about our | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
ageing population and how we support and provide care. | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
Individuals will need to pay more. And that's the thing. It is not | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
just politicians who have to face up to the problems of paying for a | :20:40. | :20:50. | |
:20:50. | :20:55. | ||
Well, Chai Patel is here. You agree, everyone agrees, that social care | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
is in crisis. That it is an urgent issue. Is that how you see it? | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
is in crisis. The funding and with the new cuts that are coming, we | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
are going to go back to the spending levels of of 2001, but | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
that's a separate matter to what Dilnot is about. For �1.7 billion | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
which is what we heard last night, the cost of changing the structures | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
in the NHS for the new healthcare Bill to throw this into the long | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
grass, to kick this into the long grass would be a travesty. People | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
have waited. We have had commissions and and white papers | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
and Green papers and people are waiting for a solution and the | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
Government needs to create a consensus. One of my key pleas here | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
is this is not a party political matter. This should be a cross | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
party matter. We have had the politicians on say, | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
"Yes, we're going to move towards consensus." They always say that on | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
big issues like this. Is it less about party politics now as it was | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
before the election and more about affordability? Can the country | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
afford it? We heard from the lady who said we can't afford not to do | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
anything. Can we afford to to put the costs in? We are at a | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
particular point in our cycle economically, had is a long-term | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
solution. We are talking about a new arrangement. Social care | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
happened by slight of care. The older people today used to think | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
the care was going to be free at the point of delivery, at some | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
point somebody called it social care and and started means-testing | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
it. You don't know if you will have to pay for it and how do you | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
provide for T the money issue is a small issue. Andrew Dilnot shows a | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
chart on what we spend and �1.7 billion is not the issue. The issue | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
is do we want to find a new settlement that's fair? | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
consensus has got to be around a cap, if you like, that people have | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
to save to pay for themselves because it is not going to be free | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
anymore. You run a whole set of care homes. You took over Southern | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
Cross when it failed last year. part of scrost. | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
-- -- -- -- Southern Cross. Do you think that's a reasonable | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
cap? The average length of stay in a care home is 18 months and that | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
amount of money would mean the majority of people who are means- | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
tested would be paying for themselves if they could afford it. | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
The overall cost to the Treasury is not very high. That captures the | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
current people. What it would do however, is tell people that if | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
they needed care for a longer period of time, then the State | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
would step in so they wouldn't be left to worry about what is going | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
to happen when I run out of money. Would I be moved to a different | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
home? Would I not be able to afford the care? It would mean the | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
Government wroont wouldn't be crippled by the number of people? | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
You are only funding the people who could afford to pay, but not | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
increasing the pot. What I'm concerned about, what we should get | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
is to get Dilnot as as a way of having an open discussion and | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
discuss the cap, but more importantly alongside this, there | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
has to be a discussion of how we shift the budget from the health | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
budget into social care because it is the interface of social care and | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
healthcare where the problems are lying right now and there is a huge | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
waste in the system that could pay for this and I'm happy to talk | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
about either now or either because this could be self-funded. This | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
isn't about the size of the pot actually, it is about how we use it. | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
The story around care homes is they ran into financial difficulty. In | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
your case, how is HC 1 going now? We are in the middle of 120 days at | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
the moment. We have had a lot of change. We have absorbed a lot of | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
issues, but we are making progress. A lot of what we stand for which is | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
the whole issue of kindness does not cost actually, it is about | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
culture and values really. You are being monitored by the | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
Department of Health? Well, one of the things I have been saying today | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
at a conference is that's a sideshow, but you can do the | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
financial monitoring, we have bigger issues than financial | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
monitoring. I wondered who the two large guys | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
were outside! Monitoring them! I took you seriously there! | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
LAUGHTER I'm very trusting. | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
She is. She will never learn! Businessman, Christopher Tappin, | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
who has been extradited from the UK to the US over arms dealing charges | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
faces a bail hearing tomorrow in the United States. It comes in a | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
week that the Home Affairs Select Committee heard from Mr Tappin's | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
wife and son as part of their inquiry into this extradition. We | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
will hear from Neil Tappin in a moment. But first here is what his | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
mother had to say about the lead-up of her husband's extradition to | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
America. In the end, we had nine days notice. | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
We stared into a wholy uncertain future for us both. How did we | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
feel? Incredulity, frustration, heart-rendering sadness, despair | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
and utter disbelief. Chris solicitor injured on, trying to -- | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
soldiered on trying to sort out the necessary practical issues, selling | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
his car, our house, etcetera while saying farewell to his friends and | :26:36. | :26:44. | |
colleagues. Not knowing when or if he would see | :26:44. | :26:54. | |
them again. Early morning on... Clearly a difficult time for the | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
Tappin family. Joining me now is the son of | :26:57. | :27:07. | |
Christopher Tappin, Neil Tappin and David Bermingham. | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
Let me start with you, Mr Tappin. Have you heard from your father | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
since arrival in the US and what do you know of his treatment? | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
mother heard from him on, I think, it was Wednesday evening. She was | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
calling his American lawyer and he was sat opposite his lawyer so she | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
spoke to him, the conversation got cut off ten seconds, he said he was | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
What conditions is he enduring? Well, this is the thing that's | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
upsetting us at the moment. He is in a cell on his own which in some | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
ways you might think is a good thing, but he is left in the cell | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
for 23 hours a day. One hour a day outside. He has no reading material | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
at all and... He is not allowed to have anything in the cell? It was | :27:53. | :28:02. | |
reported in the Press he took his two books with him, a Seve | :28:02. | :28:09. | |
Ballesteros biography and a Jeremy Clarkson biography. One of the | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
distressing things is the light is being left on 24 hours a day. He | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
has nothing to keep him occupied. It is just him and his thoughts. | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
Are you surprised that he has to endure that, given that he is still | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
innocent until proved guilty. I mean, these seem harsh conditions | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
for someone who has yet to be found guilty? Well, you said. Innocent | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
until proven guilty. He has never once had the opportunity to show | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
any of the evidence on his side of the argument. So in the hearings in | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
this country, the US put across their side of the story, as it were. | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
Then our lawyers had to argue a few points of technical points of | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
extradition which to be honest with you were pointless. He goes out | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
there. He is in a cell on his own. No contact with us, 5,000 miles | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
away from home. It It really, really feels as if his presumption | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
of innocence has been lost. Can you explain what it is he has | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
been accused of? He has been accused of conspiring to export | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
cell missile batteries to Iran. Which fell foul of the sanctions | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
regime against Iran? I suspect so, yes. | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
Happens now? He has a bail hearing on Friday evening. The US | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
Government are opposing bail based on him being a flight risk. Again, | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
I need to underline, he is 65 years old. He is in the US and he has | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
surrendered himself to Heathrow Airport last Friday. He has has | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
$250. He never committed a crime in this country and yet, there is a | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
case to be said that he should be kept in prison without the prospect | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
of release in the near future. Is his lawyer giving you | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
encouragement that he may get bail? They are taking a cautious approach | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
on that. They are trying not to get anyone's hopes up about bail. It is | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
in the balance, we don't know. If he got bail, he wouldn't be | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
allowed to leave the United States or the State of Texas, he would | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
have to get accommodation nearby the court until it was time to be | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
in court? Exactly, right. He would stay out there and they | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
would build their defence case outside of the prison. If he | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
doesn't get bail, he has to build that defence case in prison with | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
only limited access to his lawyers which obviously makes that harder | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
for him to do. And hard for your mother as we saw, | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
for all of you. Really hard for mum. She has been dragged through just | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
hell on all of this and then, you know, last night to find out that | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
he had, that the light has been left on 24 hours a day, it is | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
sending her, you know, into a bad place. | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
It is like when you see in some movies when a terrorist has been | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
caught? That's how it feels. He is very British. He has done his | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
business, a small businessman in this country, he lived his life | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
here and never left the UK in these dealings, I don't know why we feel | :30:58. | :31:08. | |
:31:08. | :31:16. | ||
as if the judiciary can't deal with By we have Neil Tappin with us, and | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
also David Birmingham, who had gone through this process in America and | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
is now back here. Explain to us, what were you extradited for and | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
then put in jail for? We were accused by the United States | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
government of defrauding NatWest Bank in London. It was in a | :31:37. | :31:45. | |
transaction connected to Enron. played guilty? We did. The | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
statistics on this are truly terrifying, if anyone analyses them. | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
98% of people in the federal system in America who are indicted will | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
enter into a plea bargain rather than going to trial. They will do | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
that for a variety of circumstances, but the system is almost set up to | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
guarantee you will get a plea bargain as soon as somebody is | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
indicted rather than going to trial. You were sentenced to 37 months. | :32:12. | :32:19. | |
Correct. You served seven in the US and tent in the UK. That's right. | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
In the US, what conditions both when you were on remand and after | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
the sentence did you endure? remand, our position was all but | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
unique. Because of the furore surrounding our extradition in 2006, | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
Tony Blair intervened with the US government to get them to allow us | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
to have failed. We were the first people ever to have been extradited | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
to America to have been granted bail and are not aware of anybody | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
else who has contested extradition since has enjoyed that luxury. | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
Prior to entering into a plea agreement, which took two years, we | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
did want to fight this case. We eventually found ourselves unable | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
to do so. We were therefore out on bail, we were electronically | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
monitored, we were living in Houston, we were unable to be | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
together as defendants other than in the presence of attorney's. | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
least you were out. Exactly. Once you had played guilty and was | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
sentenced, what were the conditions for the seven months? You were in a | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
federal penitentiary? That's right. Over those seven months I was in | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
five different places. I spent most time in California. Part of our | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
deal, one of the reasons we agree to enter into a plea agreement, was | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
the prosecutor said if you sign this paper, we will ensure you get | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
sent home quickly. If you go to trial and lose, we will make sure | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
you never go home. Quite a strong motivation. A gun to your head. | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
is how business is done over there. It is not just a system as we would | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
recognise. You were not in a cell with a light on for 24 hours a day | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
with nothing to read. Nope. What Mr Taplin is going through at the | :34:06. | :34:12. | |
moment is not untypical of remand conditions. The remand conditions | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
are part of the game, if you wish, to get somebody to enter a plea | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
agreement. They will make it as unpleasant as they can. If you | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
decide to plead guilty, it shortens the romance period because you | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
don't need to prepare for a trial. Remand facilities are different to | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
the facilities when somebody has been convicted. In California, I | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
was in the dormitory of 250 people with bunk beds two feet apart. That | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
is a much more normal scenario for people once they have been | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
convicted. What kind of prison did you end up in Britain? Five | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
different prisons. I started in Wandsworth, a remand prison, two to | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
a cell, and I ended up in an open prison. Rather more pleasant than | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
what Mr Caplin has had? Indeed. As a foreigner in the US, you're not | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
entitled to be in an open prison because you are do portable alien. | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
There is a prejudice against foreigners in that system. | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
could not be in the equivalent of a US Open prison? No. All of the | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
closed prisons are run by gangs. there any word of encouragement for | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
Neil Tappin? Yes. The mere fact he is out there means he is one step | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
closer to coming home. I said this did Chris Ann Neale the other day. | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
This is the worst time because from here on in, he is beginning their | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
journey home, no matter how long that is. When you go out to America | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
to see your father, when is that? We have to wait to see whether he | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
gets bail or not. If he does, I'm sure Mum will go up to see him and | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
I will go out as well. If he doesn't get bail, it will be very | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
distressing for mum to go and see him in an orange jumpsuit with | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
shackles. We are not a family that has been through this before. | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
Nobody knows what to expect. I will certainly go up to see him, but it | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
is up in the air at the moment. Abu Qatada hasn't been deported. | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
know. Let's leave it there. So, Britain has shut its embassy in | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
Syria and pulled out all of its diplomats because of the | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
deteriorating security situation. The announcement came as UN | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
diplomats voted to condemn the Syrian government for human rights | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
violations and called for immediate access for aid agencies. The | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
resolution is aimed at stepping up the pressure on Damascus. Our | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
correspondent Imogen Foulkes is in Geneva, where the UN is meeting. | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
I spoke to her earlier and began by asking her whether the UN | :36:40. | :36:47. | |
resolution had been passed. Yes. It is a very tough resolution. The | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
thought that the UN Human Rights Council has passed condemning Syria | :36:51. | :36:59. | |
for what it terms brutality against its own citizens, widespread, | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
systematic human rights violations. The resolution then calls for an | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
immediate end to the violence, and immediate access for humanitarian | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
aid agencies. It was passed pretty overwhelmingly, three countries | :37:14. | :37:23. | |
voted against. Russia, China and Cuba. Human rights groups accused | :37:23. | :37:30. | |
them of being out on a limb now and undermining attempts to try to | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
bring some resolution to this crisis in Syria. Does this mean | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
there's more optimism that the resolution being put together by | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
the Americans also about humanitarian aid, is there more | :37:42. | :37:51. | |
likely had that that will pass? is really hard to say. Initially, | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
myself and other people watching this meeting thought Russia might | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
not vote against, given what we have been seeing for example from | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
the City of Homs and the relentless shelling that has been going on | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
there. But Russia voted against and we know it has vetoed resolution at | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
the UN Security Council before. The question now is will it go a long | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
with this new attempt at the Security Council being drafted by | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
the Americans or will it oppose again? I think Russia will find it | :38:24. | :38:31. | |
difficult, but the signs this morning are not good. | :38:31. | :38:38. | |
David Owen is with us now. I am asking you this question, mindful | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
of the Rolls you have played. Is this beginning to look more like | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
Bosnia than Libya? It has never looked like Libya. Libya is a very | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
different situation in all aspects. This does look like it is coming to | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
one of these civil wars where you were locked with both sides having | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
the capacity to halt the fighting and no outright winner. These are | :39:04. | :39:12. | |
the most dangerous civil wars. you see Homs, it is hard not to | :39:12. | :39:20. | |
think of Sarajevo. Yes. But I think it is better to think of Hamann. | :39:20. | :39:27. | |
President Assad's father. And his family. They wiped out a whole tone | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
and they got away with it. We did not take enough concern for it when | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
it happened in 1982. This is where history is repeating itself. What | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
can we do? There isn't a day these days that I don't wake up thinking | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
what can you do about it. It is a hugely difficult thing to see a way | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
through it. I have always repeated the country that holds the key to | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
it is Turkey and Turkey have looked at it and mighty hard. They have | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
concluded there is no military role. It they say no military role, it is | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
pretty hard for anyone else to have a military role. It is end of story. | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
They are the country that could use NATO, they are a member of NATO, | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
and go to NATO to ask for help, but they would have to be the country | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
that did the heavy lifting. They have to make an assessment. They | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
have assessed so far that it can't be done. The other issue is that | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
China is getting concerned about this issue in the Security Council | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
and I don't thing Russia is having it all their own way in the | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
dialogue with China. If you could start to prise China away from | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
Russia, China might bend. There was talk earlier of Turkey looking at | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
almost a safe haven zone on the Syrian northern border with Turkey, | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
which the Turks themselves said they would protect. Has that faded | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
away? Did that not come to fruition? I was always opposed this | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
safe havens in Bosnia Herzegovina and look at what a tragedy that end | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
up with. It is no good calling them a safe haven if they don't provide | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
the troops for it, which is what we did not do in Bosnia. Srebrenica | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
was an accident waiting to happen. I am very unlikely to support safe | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
havens. Also it means you are giving up. Basically you would be | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
encouraging the civilians to depopulate, come to this area, and | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
you would effectively be going for politician. I don't think that is a | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
solution. The question is, from the air, can you interdict the supply | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
lines of Assad's forces in such a way as to be a serious threat to | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
continuing this type of violence? It would be challenged. It would be | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
challenged by sophisticated aircraft, it would be challenged by | :41:47. | :41:54. | |
a country that has the support of Iran and has the support of Russia. | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
And Iraq will not get involved, they will probably be neutral, but | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
they might be in part on their side. Then there's the closely as to the | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
Lebanon, closeness to Israel. You are playing... It is a powder keg. | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
At the moment, as you look at the British foreign policy response, | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
and to the Western foreign policy response, how would you | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
characterise it? The British response has been first class, I | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
have no criticism of it whatever. Both William Hague and the prime | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
minister have got this right. I think they got Libya right. I don't | :42:32. | :42:40. | |
look for policy disputes unless I have to have them. You have enough! | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
What are your thoughts, Chai Patel? It is a tragedy of the highest | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
order. If we haven't learnt anything from these interventions, | :42:48. | :42:54. | |
it is that judgments have to be fine. If our neighbours in Turkey | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
and people know much more about it are wanting to jump in, jumping in | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
is not the right thing. Final question to you, David, can you see | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
a time in the near future where we may consider arming the rebels? | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
I think that is perfectly possible. We did that in Libya and that is | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
one case where there's a possibility. But you are adding | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
fuel to a civil war. In the past, the issue has often been that | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
nobody supplies weapons to a civil war and that was what was done in | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
Bosnia, but that came under a huge attack because of its unfairness. | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
You have to be very careful on this sort of thing. It is happening and | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
it is being done by tacit support from most Western countries. It is | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
happening at the moment. This is not, I don't think, the big problem, | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
weaponry. So far they have conducted a very skilful campaign. | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
They fight in the suburbs, in the inner cities, and then when they | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
know the game is up, they move and fight somewhere else. This is what | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
they have on their side. There's also continued defections from the | :44:02. | :44:09. | |
Syrian army. Thank you. No easy solution to it. | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
Now, remember those heady days of December, when David Cameron | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
exercised what he called his veto over EU-wide measures to tackle the | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
eurozone crisis? Well, today the Prime Minister returns to Brussels | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
for a European leaders summit. Iain Watson is there. | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
What reception do you think awaits Mr Cameron? I think what David | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
Cameron wants to prove is that he is no longer isolated in Brussels. | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
He looked rather lonely after he vetoed that EU treaty in December. | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
First thing tomorrow in Brussels, 25 of the 27 EU countries will sign | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
what would -- what would have been in that treated. The two countries | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
that were not signed up Britain and the Czech Republic. The Prime | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
Minister is travelling to Brussels with the prime minister of the | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
Czech Republic. Much more significantly than that, Britain | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
has also signed the letter effectively saying that the EU has | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
not been doing enough to boost economic growth. 12 countries have | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
signed a letter. To give you a flavour of it, it says it is a | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
perilous moment for economies across Europe, we need to show | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
leadership, take bold decisions, achieve results. But France and | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
Germany have not signed a letter and I have seen what is the draft | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
conclusions of this summit even before people have met. It talks a | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
lot about economic growth, but it doesn't have specifics on | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
deregulation that David Cameron is looking for. He may not be isolated | :45:35. | :45:42. | |
this time, but he will have his He might be disappointed that, he | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
is not Billy No Mates as you have said, but in terms of ratifying | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
this fiscal come fact, Ireland and France, depending what happens in | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
the election, that ratification has to take place and there are doubts | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
about it, aren't there? Yes, there are. I mean this is the other area | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
where Britain may not be isolated. Although 25 countries are signing | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
this, it has to go back to their parliaments to make a decision. The | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
Irish are having a referendum on this, but it is not clear that they | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
will go along with it and the candidate who is leading in the | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
opinion polls for the French presidency says he will not ratify | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
this. He was in Britain yesterday, of course, he won't ratify this | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
unless there are changes. He thinks it is restricts European debt too | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
much. However, only 12 of the 25 countries have to ratify it for it | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
come into force, imagine the row, the row may shift from Britain, but | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
imagine the row if the EU tries to impose this on a newly elected | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
Government in France. Indeed. | :46:41. | :46:49. | |
I am joined by the the Conservative MP, Bill Cash and Emma Reynolds. | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
Bill Cash we talked about happened in December, but Britain has been | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
banging on about growth in the eurozone. Is there any point in | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
depriving the eurozone of the instruments they need to put it | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
into effect? Most people believe that it won't work anyway because | :47:08. | :47:10. | |
the trillions that they are pouring in, are not going to produce the | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
answer they really need which is to have growth. The other thing which | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
is really important and why I got this emergency debate yesterday in | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
the House of Commons is that the method that they are employing is | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
according to much of the evidence that we're receiving, and I believe | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
that the Government knows this, is that they are using a system which | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
will effectively break the rule of law in Europe, by using the | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
European Commission and the Court of Justice. This is a serious | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
problem because they are using rules to break the rule of law. | :47:41. | :47:48. | |
Right, would it affect us in a very negative way? Even if they are | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
breaking the law, would it have any effect if as what we want is growth | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
in the eurozone? As David Cameron indicated because he sent this | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
letter to the letter European Council. We reserve our position | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
and David Liddington said yesterday it would be a dangerous press den | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
and the problem with that -- precedent and that the problem with | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
that, they are creating to Europes built on sand. The truth is this is | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
a new kind of Europe. We are at a crossroads and I don't think it is | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
good to cry wolf to say, "We are going to take legal action." And | :48:24. | :48:31. | |
then not do it because it it makes you look like a straw man. | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
Emma Reynolds, Iain Watson, mentioned the meeting Ed Miliband | :48:37. | :48:47. | |
had with the candidate for French President. Do you gree that this -- | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
agree that this shouldn't be ratified? For too long centre right | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
Governments have focused on austerity alone. | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
He will have come here to say, "I am not going to ratify it unless | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
there are big changes." Does Ed Miliband agree? We agree that the | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
treaty as it stands focuses too much on austerity and doesn't | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
involve any commitment to growth and that's what he is saying. He is | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
saying not scrap the treaty, he is saying there should be additions to | :49:19. | :49:26. | |
the treaty. If there were the additions that Ed | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
Miliband and the French presidency candidate would support it? | :49:31. | :49:39. | |
problem is timing. If he was French President in January, it would have | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
been easier. What happens if he gets elected in | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
May, what happens the agreement that has been reached in January? | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
This could be tricky. This is a jigsaw. The one thing you | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
could look at Bill Cash, with so many countries signing up, | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
ratification, let's leave that aside, with so many countries | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
signing up, it could boost market confidence which would be a good | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
thing for the British economy? Every time they produce the | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
treaties and agreements and they have been having summit after | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
summit after summit and they pour and more trillions into it. | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
It is an important thing in these issues, isn't it? Market confidence | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
is important. There is no doubt about that. But this is not the way | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
to achieve it. The way to achieve it is to put oxygen into the small | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
and medium sized businesses, not not to go in for Leaties -- | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
treaties which are unlawful and to generate growth which is the only | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
way of achieving advantage with the countries like China and the rest. | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
We have got to get down to the serious business of generating | :50:45. | :50:55. | |
:50:55. | :50:58. | ||
growth. It will be interesting to see if he | :50:58. | :51:08. | |
:51:08. | :51:11. | ||
does what in opposition what he Now, the latest in the seemingly | :51:11. | :51:21. | |
:51:21. | :51:21. | ||
never ending battle over Andrew Lansley's Health and Social Care | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
Bill, Lib Dem will push for a vote at the conference. | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
I am joined by Vicky Young. I notice that the Liberal Democrats | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
or the Government have put out saying they are confident that he | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
wouldn't lose the motion, but there could be a debate? It is fair to | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
say that the Health Bill is going at a snail's pace through the House | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
of Lords. Nick Clegg this week really tried to talk about the | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
great work that the Liberal Democrat peers have been doing in | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
the House of Lords to change it to improve it, the problem is they | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
have a problem here, because they positioned themselves with the | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
party that made a lot of changes, especially watering down parts of | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
the Bill which are about competition. If you have got MPs | :52:00. | :52:07. | |
sniping from the sides, it undermines their argument. | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
The motion is to be debated. Is it becoming worse than tuition fees? | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
The problem is as someone said to me today, it is becoming like | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
tuition fees did really for the Liberal Democrats. The spring | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
conference kicks off a week tomorrow. There has been a critical | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
motion put forward. It is certain there will be an emergency motion | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
on health debated. The one that has been suggested and put forward | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
calls for the Bill to be withdrawn or defeated and dropped and it says | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
that the Bill has failed to win the support of the public or health | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
professionals and it will make reorganisation of the NHS worse. | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
Many MPs, Liberal Democrats MPs, aren't happy where we are, but they | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
feel dropping it now is too late. If they were going to drop the Bill, | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
they should have done it months ago and saved themselves the agony. The | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
Lib Dem leadership is confident it if they have peers on side, they | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
can see down this activists conference motion. | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
Chai Patel, we have been through the wringer on this on the Health | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
Bill. The issue has been about competition. Do you fear the | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
cherry-picking element that has been talked about by the Liberal | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
Democrats? Competition exists in the NHS, but does the Bill lead to | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
a new level of it? The changes that the Lib Dems brought in has now | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
made sure that that won't happen. The recent LSD report showed that | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
competition is good for the patients, it is good for healthcare | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
outcomes, but it pointed out that the private healthcare sector had | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
the option to cherry-pick the stuff. We have to make the Health Service | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
more effective and efficient. One of the of the worries that GPs | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
put, they don't want their patients to think they are thinking about | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
the cost and profit margin and they are only thinking about care? | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
have been commissioning for a while in a a variety of ways. What | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
patients want is the best care at the right right place at the right | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
time. They don't mind who delivers Is the 50 pence rate of tax | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
damaging the economy? More than 500 business leaders think so in a | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
letter to the Daily Telegraph they claim the tax is reducing | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
Government income and it is not raising it and they are calling for | :54:26. | :54:32. | |
to to be axed in the Budget. I'm joined by Charlie Mullin and | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
Richard Murphy who is an accountant. They have been squabbling on | :54:36. | :54:43. | |
Twitter. So let's going now! Charlie Mullin you said, "We | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
believe the richest should help the poorest in society." So why scrap | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
the top rate now? It is having a vice versa effect. Since they | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
brought in the 50 pence tax rate, it has been proven that �500 | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
million less in revenue has been raised from the top tax earners. | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
It is not getting money? It is having the vice versa effect. It is | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
stopping people expanding and stopping people investing in | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
business. It has gone the wrong way around. | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
The case against it, it is not bringing in any dosh and it is | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
having a detrimental effect on the economy? Is wrong. First of all, | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
there has been no prove on this. There is no evidence which is firm | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
and fast as yet... We have had initial figures. We have had | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
figures, but they are wrong. Let's look at the data... How much do you | :55:32. | :55:42. | |
:55:42. | :55:47. | ||
think it is bringing in I think it will bring in �5 billion. There | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
will be people earning quite a lot. Even the tax in the Labour Party | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
and the Lib Dems, I have never heard any of them claim it will | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
bring in �5 billion. Are you putting your name? Yes. | :56:00. | :56:07. | |
Will you come back on? I will. It will either be a triumph for you | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
or not? There is a lot of tax avoidance going on which we would | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
have to tackle. It is impossible though and I am hanny hanny to say | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
dp habby -- happy to say. Is it going to generate jobs? Of course, | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
three billion which is the minimum, if all the avoidance was done that | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
it could generate is the entire capital of the Green Investment | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
Bank. If the top rate was cut, what would | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
you do with the money? I would reinvest it into the business. | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
Richard, you are talking rubbish, mate. Absolute rubbish. You are | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
talking rubbish. Time will prove right or wrong. | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
don't run a business. I have run businesses. Lots of | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
businesses. I was a serial entrepreneur. | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
You should be dealing with tax dodgers, not the good guys pay the | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
tax. I paid over �0.5 million in tax last year. | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
Charles Charlie, your assumption is the only way you can get more money | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
in, first of all, you run a limited company, almost 0% of the -- 90% of | :57:11. | :57:17. | |
the people who signed that letter run limited companies? Why do you | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
run a limited companies because the tax rate is 20%. So you have the | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
tax break for enterprise. You are confusing people with | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
figures. They are stopping people reinvesting. It had the vis versa | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
effect and -- vice versa effect. I don't think you have got a clue, | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
mate. Who is right or wrong here? We have | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
to wait for the numbers on this. We don't have to wait long. | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
And then we can make a decision. Normally, it has been a disentive | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
to growth. It shows more money has come in, | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
will you settle? If he is right, I will carry on paying it. But I'm | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
telling you now, you're wrong. 500 business leaders put their names to | :58:00. | :58:07. | |
this. They are not stupid people. You know why you are wrong, you are | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
paying yourself more because the tax has gone up so you have got the | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
same net pay. We have got to do Guess The Year. | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
Our prize is tax-free, it is not �5 billion! | :58:19. | :58:29. | |
:58:29. | :58:30. | ||
If we take 50%, half the mug goes. The answer was 1983. The winner is | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
Mr Swindle. What a great name. | :58:35. | :58:40. |