06/03/2012 Daily Politics


06/03/2012

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Alain de Botton discusses whether Britain is still a Christian country and Mark Pritchard explains why he resigned.


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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. On our lunchtime

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menu today: The Labour leader calls on British business to rally to the

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flag. Yes, he says successive governments have failed to

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appreciate just how much "pride and patriotism" can ensure the success

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of our manufacturing base. The nightmare continues in the town

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of Syrian town of Homs. International air power stopped

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Gaddafi in his tracks. Now, one senior American senator says the

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time has come to prepare to bomb Assad. So should we intervene?

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And. The Church has a key role in British life. It's an integral part

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of the state. But should we go further and become a more Christian

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country? All that in the next hour. With us

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for the whole programme today is the philosopher and television

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presenter, Alain De Botton. If you have any thoughts or

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comments on anything we're discussing, then you can tweet your

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comments, using the hashtag #bbcdp. First, the Immigration Minister,

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Damien Green, has given an interview to today's Financial

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Times, where he urges British companies to wean themselves off

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what he calls "an addiction" to hiring foreign workers. In the long

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run, he says we should have more of an instinct to say, "let's find a

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British worker, let's train a British worker." Alain de Botton.

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Is it appropriate, when we are part of the European Union, with free

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movement of the workers and Labour, to say Britain is addicted to

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hiring foreign workers. Ultimately, if you are buying a washing machine

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or train, what matters is that it functions, not the nationality of

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the person who built it. That is the logic of capitalism. To say,

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keep it Jobs For the Boys, doesn't make sense, it is counter to

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everything that the modern economy believes in it. Except, there will

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be people who say, look at the French, who are much more patriotic

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in terms of backing their own businesses. You only have to look

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at the militancy of French farmers, truck drivers. And say we need more

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of that spirit here particularly in these economic times. A certain

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amount of careful protectionism can be good. A lot of the industry's

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the French have protected, by a French car is still not a great

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move. So on the whole, industries that are heavily protected get lazy

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and do not produce goods that are up to standard. Again, a global

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lesson. It's like the argument, do you employ your own family? To shed

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jobs amongst those who are the best? You can understand the

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sentiment, keep it in the family. But that is a sentimental choice

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which will have a knock-on effect. For there is also a practical

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reality, whatever rhetoric, and we will talk about Ed Miliband and his

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speech on patriotism and industrial policy, but Gordon Brown ran into

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problems with his mantra, British jobs for British workers, because

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of the decline of -- because of the difficulty of hiring purely on the

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basis of nationality. That is impossible when everything in the

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modern economy is about free market of jobs. It real patriotism means

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been proud of being British when things are really excellent,

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otherwise it is pasteurisation. Saying this train which cost double

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and doesn't work, it is fast it because it is British. But saying,

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my child made this pot which doesn't hold any water. We are all

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guilty of that. The manufacturers' organisation the EEF has this

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morning accused the government of failing to develop a "joined-up"

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strategy for industry. It's been almost a year since George Osborne

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said he wanted Britain to be carried aloft by a "march of the

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makers". So how's he doing? Well, British manufacturing is always

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said to be in long-term decline, although it still accounts for 12%

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of GDP. That's roughly the same as in the US and France. There are

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some bright spots. Factories have been enjoying a rebound in orders.

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And today, Japanese car manufacturer Nissan has announced a

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�125m investment, that could create 2,000 jobs in Sunderland. Vince

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Cable described the announcement as a "vote of confidence" in UK plc.

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The despite what happened 30 years ago, there is a lot of new

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investment going in and Britain is seen as a country of choice by the

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big international investors. But there are still concerns over

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the future of Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port factory, with speculation that

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owner General Motors may pull the plug. Speaking within the last hour,

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Labour leader Ed Miliband is calling for a new "made in Britain",

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mark to inject some patriotism into the British economy.

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There are few words of we don't hear enough in our country. Made in

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Britain. Not because we don't make things, but because we don't

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celebrated enough, it is not part of our culture. They made in

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Britain market is about pride and patriotism, about the things we do,

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celebrating manufacturing. A made in Britain mark is about inspiring

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people to be engineers, manufacturers and designers, and

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about sending a message right across the world, about what we can

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achieve. With us now is the Business Minister Mark Prisk.

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his Labour Shadow, Ian Wright. For this is great news, you are MP

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for Hartlepool, we will seek jobs created in the north east.

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This is exactly what should be happening, an active government

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strategy, government working with productive business. Moving on from

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what happened with Peter Mandelson when he provided Investment to

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Nissan, this is exactly right. I just want Britain to succeed.

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they are doing the right thing, the coalition, investing in parts of

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manufacturing that a successful? So there has been this expansion.

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Without handing state subsidies to every single part of the industry.

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In many parts of what the government is doing, it is

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successful. But often, the rhetoric is not matched by actions and it is

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frustrating we lead the world in many things like offshore wind

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technology, where the government is not backing British business.

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are say they are not putting money in the? What do you mean exactly?

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We will come on to the idea of patriotism later. It doesn't have

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to be about money. It can provide, in -- is a very clear road map,

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where is it the British economy is going? Can we have certainty? That

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is the way we need to go. A long- term direction for the British

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economy with manufacturing and engineering at its heart. Pratchett

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isn't, what does that mean? Apart from it being rhetorical and waving

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the flag for Britain. We have talked about it being impossible to

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give British workers jobs purely on the basis of nationality. What else

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is it about? I would mention procurement, government is a

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massive customer. The Ministry of Defence, the Royal Navy, will spend

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half a billion pounds on providing four new tankers. Not one single

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British firm applied for the contracts. We had UK firms which

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are world class, we can that Britain by do this, but nothing

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happened. Unfortunately none of the companies came forward to make a

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bid. Government cannot push businesses into contracts. We can

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make sure we get it right on skills, investing in infrastructure, making

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sure we get that new generation of engineers to come into industry.

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Why is it the manufacturers' organisation has criticised the

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lack of growth strategy. They are not seeing these messages. They

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don't believe in what you are going. Today, Nissan have made a big

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investment, Ford and BMW have done the same. Tory voter -- Toyota. We

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have a clear strategy. What is important is you get those

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practical measures making sure we can support Our Competitive

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advantage. Not to focus simply on the measure of Investment, it is

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about making sure the UK competes. A isn't that part of it? You cited

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examples of success, have you been converted of -- to state

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intervention? A I always believed we should be a good partner to

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industry. Today's investment is a good example. Do you sympathise

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with what Ed Miliband has been talking about, backing British,

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saying it and doing it? I won the UK to be the most competitive place

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possible for manufacturing. Could command does play a role. We have

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to change the rules we have inherited. We need to make sure the

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overall industry is competitive, otherwise we get into the problem

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trying to defend an industry in some cases which may have proved

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not competitive. The danger for the French is actually they have gone

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down that avenue. Let us look at Vauxhall and Ellesmere Port, what

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can the government do to save that plant? The whole of General

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Motors's Europe programme, we are actively engaged on a joint

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approach. That involvement is from the top, making sure we build on

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the two good plants, Ellesmere Port and Luton. We are in discussions

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specifically with them now. will you come out over the German

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plants, General Motors are looking at both. What can you do? Ours are

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already the most productive in Europe, we have a strong exchange

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rate, a good skills record. And we deliver on what we promise.

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think that strategy in terms of car manufacturing, will work in the

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long term, it will help the recovery? Yes, but there is no

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magic bullet, it takes decades to arrive at a point where a large

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company will take a decision for hard-headed business reasons. There

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is often a clash between head and heart. He cannot expect General

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Motors to keep open an area because there are lots of British people.

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They care about money. As the government, it has to get away

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position where it is a financial logic, not patriotic budget.

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Patriotism will not impress General Motors. Saying, please keep making

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your car's here because we are British. They will say, they are

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American. There is a logic to that argument. This is a global world we

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operate in, and who is the most competitive. It is a global race,

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the most competitive economy we have seen. What Britain needs to be

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doing is working with productive businesses to make sure the skills,

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research and development, innovation, come forward.

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Government is not joined up in this regard. We have seen the Secretary

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of State for Education downgrading the status of the engineering

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Diploma. What message does that send out? You have been talking

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about the high points of manufacturing, so why do that?

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Michael is trying to simplify the complex and brought range of the

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curriculum. He is meeting industrialists to see how he can do

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this. Is a very worried this becomes protectionism? You could be

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accused here. I do not believe in protectionism. What we need to do

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is make sure government works together closely with industry to

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make sure we have productive and a competitive environment in which

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British businesses can thrive. Yesterday, in Washington, we saw

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the President of the United States sitting down with the Prime

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Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu. The two have had some

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pretty tense meetings in the past, and the Israeli message was

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uncompromising. The world, they believe, cannot wait much longer

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before intervening to stop Iran from getting a nuclear bomb.

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Meanwhile, on the other side of the city, the man who stood against

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Barak Obama in the race for the American presidency was calling for

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military action. This time, against Syria. For John McCain, the time

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has come for an international coalition to stop the massacre in

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:14:25.:14:27.

the town of Homs. The Assad's forces around the march.

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Providing assistance took opposition groups is necessary. But,

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at this late hour, that alone will not be sufficient to stop the

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slaughter and save innocent lives. The only realistic way to do so, it

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is with foreign air power. Therefore, at the request of the

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Syrian National Council, the Free Syrian Army, and local co-

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ordinating committees inside the country, the United States should

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lead and his national effort to detect population centres in Syria,

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especially in the north, through Over in Central Lobby for us now is

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the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, Richard Ottaway,

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and the former Lib Dem leader, Sir Ming Campbell. What is your

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response to the call to arms by John McCain? If the Americans would

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not intervene in Libya with the UN resolution, I have to say, I take

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with a pinch of salt that they would intervene in Syria without

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one. It is a huge leap. I think we need to get to the bottom of what

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is behind it. Do you think he will be an isolated voice even within

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his own party or will others follow on the basis that the Americans did

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not intervene in Libya because others were doing that?

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question is whether or not the Americans have the resources to do

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this. They have a fleet deployed in the Gulf at the moment, looking at

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Iran. Having a major operation in the Mediterranean is a huge,

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logistical exercise. So Menzies Campbell, do you think the Obama

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regime will ignore this call by John McCain? It is presidential

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election year. Everything has to be seen through that prism. In my

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recent experience, there is no enthusiasm - no appetite - for

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further intervention in the Middle East by the United States. Libya

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:16:53.:16:56.

was an interesting illustration. The difficulty about the argument

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from John McCain is, the forces on the ground are pretty scattered and

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not very effective. As a consequence, and aerial campaign

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would not have the kind of impact, for example, it had been Libya and

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to go further back, which it had in relation to Milosevic in Serbia,

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when all the trouble was being caused in Serbia -- Kosovo. One

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thing which made Milosevic realised the game was up was when the

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Russians said, they would no longer back him. If we could persuade the

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Russians not to back President Assad, I think we would get some

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movement. People are hoping there are hints that may be happening.

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What people may be asking, I know people have cited There is not the

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international will to intervene in Syria as there was in Libya, a

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morally, what is the difference between what Gaddafi is doing and

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what Assad is doing in Homs? Nothing. If anything, it is worse.

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We cannot conduct foreign, defence and security policy on the strength

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of moral, a knee-jerk reactions. It is very challenging. Before leaping

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into this sort of thing, you have to take a considered approach. Both

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the British government and the American government and their

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allies have concluded it is not possible. The only possible step

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that might be taken us some sort of humanitarian corridor which may be

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protected in some way. Beam that is hugely complex and very difficult.

:18:43.:18:53.
:18:53.:18:53.

-- even that. Alain De Botton, reacting in saying we cannot have

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foreign-policy on the basis of knee-jerk reactions, do you agree?

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We can have a foreign policy. What is the outcome of life versus the

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cost of death in an intervention in Syria? The can make the calculation

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here. Intervention does not stack up. It would cost more lives to

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intervene. That is still maintaining a moral stance. On a

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moral basis, one could argue it does not make sense. Difficult when

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you see the distressing pictures from Homs and the daily massacres.

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You have to look at the broad picture. He cannot look at an

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isolated victim. Bets come on to the subject of Israel and Iran. --

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let's come on. I will shout louder than normal! A fairly

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uncompromising message from Binyamin Netanyahu. It is getting

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to the stage when you have two leaders diverging. They are not

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singing from the same hymn sheet. When you look at what President

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Obama said to have three days ago, he said there is too much loose

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talk about military action. There is no doubt that, although

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yesterday, the joint photo opportunity, when all the cameras

:20:15.:20:20.

were there, there was the kind of apparent measure of agreement. It

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is no doubt there is a substantial disagreement between the Americans

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and the Israelis. That is a feature of the fact that President Obama

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and Binyamin Netanyahu had never had a constructive relationship.

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do not think Israel is capable of being restrained. I am informed

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they can only to a limited exercise without the support of the US.

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you have any sympathy with the position of Israel? They feel it is

:20:56.:21:00.

just them and it is only up to them to do with the threat of Iran

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because they would be the first target. Just to pick up on Richard

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-- what Richard Ottaway said, they do have some refuelling capability.

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The distances involved are so substantial that the Israelis could

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not carry out the kind of attack which would be effected without

:21:18.:21:23.

American assistance. Back to presidential year in America, I do

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not see that being available. Do I have sympathy for the few the

:21:29.:21:34.

Israelis find themselves in a parlous condition? Yes, indeed. We

:21:34.:21:41.

have a moral obligation to insure we look at every diplomatic

:21:41.:21:44.

alternative before we consider military action. Do you agree with

:21:44.:21:47.

that body you think they have waited long enough and been patient

:21:47.:21:53.

enough and we must look seriously at other action against Iran?

:21:53.:21:57.

need to let sanctions take their course. Some of the tougher

:21:57.:22:01.

sanctions you can imagine a being imposed at the moment. They will

:22:01.:22:06.

escalate over the coming months. We have not yet reached the point

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where we have to make a decision on mess. The difficult assessment is,

:22:11.:22:16.

how do you judge whether sanctions have succeeded or failed? If they

:22:16.:22:21.

do not succeed, you will have the difficult choice of, which is the

:22:21.:22:30.

least bad option? Iran or the nuclear strike? Britain does not

:22:30.:22:35.

have much say in this issue, do they? Quite clearly we are not able

:22:35.:22:40.

to provide military support in this. We could, if we so chose, offer

:22:40.:22:43.

logistical support, just when we did when the Americans bombed Libya

:22:43.:22:49.

in the 80s. In relation to that, we have British minesweepers in the

:22:49.:22:54.

Gulf helping to ensure the Strait of Hormuz is kept open to

:22:54.:22:58.

international shipping. We have the Republican Guard which, frankly,

:22:58.:23:04.

goes its own way. The real risk, it seems to me, is that some

:23:04.:23:10.

accidental provocation takes place with -- which forced his

:23:10.:23:17.

retaliation and we could have substantial escalation. -- forces

:23:17.:23:21.

retaliation. That is the biggest risk at the moment. Yesterday

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afternoon, the Conservative MP, Mark Pritchard, resigned as the

:23:23.:23:25.

deputy chairman of his party's International Committee. In his

:23:25.:23:28.

resignation letter to the Prime Minister, Mr Pritchard said he

:23:28.:23:31.

wanted the freedom to speak out on immigration, Europe and what he

:23:31.:23:34.

sees as a lack of clarity for national and individual aspiration.

:23:34.:23:42.

So what did he mean? Mark Pritchard is here. You said to want to speak

:23:42.:23:49.

more freely. Speak more freely. What you want to say? I fully

:23:49.:23:53.

support the Government in a wide range of policies, such as

:23:53.:23:56.

education reforms which are absolutely vital in making the

:23:56.:24:01.

United Kingdom more competitive and to -- in an increasingly

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competitive global economy with the rise of Asia and Latin America.

:24:07.:24:10.

There are first class universities in those areas. I support the

:24:10.:24:15.

welfare reforms and other policies as well. There are areas of

:24:15.:24:19.

difference. I felt it would be inconsistent remain in a role

:24:19.:24:24.

appointed by the Prime Minister if I felt uncomfortable on some issues.

:24:24.:24:29.

Which issues are they? Just a line them for us. People might say, on

:24:29.:24:33.

the main issues, you seem to agree with the Government. The Government

:24:33.:24:39.

needs to have a more robust policy on immigration. We saw from the

:24:39.:24:42.

Office of National Statistics last week that there is very little

:24:42.:24:48.

process -- progress been made on immigration. The impact on

:24:48.:24:52.

education, public services, social cohesion communities up and down

:24:52.:24:59.

the land, is significant. The Government has been quite timid

:24:59.:25:03.

thus far. They have been timid on tackling a fault in the student

:25:03.:25:10.

visa system. There are work visas, tourist visas, family visas. All of

:25:10.:25:15.

these need to be addressed. The Government says it is looking at

:25:15.:25:22.

this. The Government needs to do more. I particularly care about it

:25:22.:25:25.

passionately. It is impacting on communities up and down the land,

:25:25.:25:31.

having an impact in schools, having an impact on hospitals and social

:25:31.:25:34.

cohesion. The Government is right to say it is a priority when they

:25:34.:25:37.

entered into government. I want to bring the Government to account and

:25:37.:25:41.

hold it to account on behalf of my constituents, who really care about

:25:41.:25:46.

this issue. They need to do more and do it more quickly, be less

:25:46.:25:51.

timid and more radical. One might suggest you were pretty outspoken

:25:51.:25:55.

when you work in your role. I am trying to get to what more you want

:25:55.:26:04.

to say that we have not heard from you already. You have outlined

:26:04.:26:05.

immigration, what about Europe? Europe, the Government says, we are

:26:05.:26:09.

in coalition, there is not much we can do until we have a Conservative

:26:09.:26:14.

majority, potentially, after the next election. Let's workout some

:26:14.:26:20.

policies ahead of the next manifesto. We heard last week that

:26:20.:26:23.

Number 10 themselves believes it is highly a mite too that we will have

:26:23.:26:27.

a Conservative majority of the next election, we may have to continue

:26:27.:26:31.

with the Liberal Democrats - if they choose to continue with us of

:26:31.:26:37.

course - at the next election. It is about working up to the next

:26:37.:26:40.

general election where they become more robust on Europe. We have

:26:40.:26:45.

become more robust on Europe. It may never happen because there may

:26:45.:26:50.

not be the largest party. We may not win the general election. That

:26:50.:26:57.

is up for -- to the British electorate. In the meantime, we're

:26:57.:27:04.

Euro-sceptic like as a party. Europe is costing jobs and holding

:27:04.:27:12.

back growth. The European political project, and the high cost of

:27:12.:27:14.

employment and social regulations on small, medium and large

:27:14.:27:19.

businesses in this country, are costing jobs. As soon as people

:27:19.:27:24.

begin to make the link between Europe and bred on the table, that

:27:24.:27:27.

will be a game change in British politics. You feel let down on

:27:27.:27:32.

those issues particularly. current government is Euro-sceptic

:27:32.:27:36.

light. There is a lot of reverse talk on Europe. When it comes to

:27:36.:27:40.

the Conservative Party and its leaders, through successive years,

:27:40.:27:46.

it is action are not work that really counts. How will you conduct

:27:46.:27:51.

a campaign from now on? It is not a campaign. I am a member of

:27:51.:27:56.

parliament, elected to represent my constituents. On some areas there

:27:56.:28:00.

was a difference but in an increasing number of areas, people

:28:00.:28:03.

are saying, what is the difference between the last government and

:28:04.:28:09.

this government? You struggle to answer those questions. We live in

:28:09.:28:15.

extraordinary times. We need some radical thinking to set this

:28:15.:28:21.

country on the right course on a range of issues. Were you under

:28:21.:28:26.

pressure from party whips and party managers? Was that why you wanted

:28:26.:28:32.

to resign from your official post? It was inconsistent. If I held a

:28:32.:28:35.

position within the party, appointed by the Prime Minister, I

:28:35.:28:41.

felt constrained in that position. What did the position entail?

:28:41.:28:44.

appointed by the Prime Minister to engage with sister parties around

:28:44.:28:49.

the world, on behalf of the Conservative Party, to try to help

:28:49.:28:54.

parties grow their capacities campaign and organisation. It was

:28:54.:28:57.

something I enjoyed. Foreign affairs and international agencies

:28:57.:29:03.

was something I enjoyed Foster I have to put my constituents first.

:29:03.:29:13.
:29:13.:29:15.

-- I enjoyed. MPs are talking about going that step further. It is

:29:15.:29:21.

Aperol because it is the resignation in terms of belief. --

:29:21.:29:25.

admirable. There are genuine problems in terms of sitting in the

:29:25.:29:31.

EU and arguing that we, as one of the Macro member of a large

:29:31.:29:36.

organisation, should have special breaks on things like Labour laws.

:29:36.:29:41.

-- one member. That is where the heart of the Conservative Party say

:29:41.:29:46.

we should just get out of this thing. You are in this thing. There

:29:46.:29:52.

is not much you can do. It is a very dangerous thing when the

:29:52.:29:56.

political elite in Europe continually denied their peoples

:29:56.:30:01.

say on the European question. The majority of people in this nation

:30:01.:30:07.

have not had a say on Europe since 1975. Either they were not born but

:30:07.:30:12.

they were not old enough to vote in 1975. Those who work, a lot of them

:30:12.:30:17.

felt we were signing up to an economic union and not a political

:30:17.:30:23.

union. As a philosopher, I hope you might agree that there is a

:30:23.:30:27.

fundamental and democratic deficit. Millions of people have never had a

:30:27.:30:34.

say on Europe. You could respond to this? For too long, the right wing

:30:34.:30:38.

of the Conservative Party has made dramatic gestures without engaging

:30:38.:30:44.

in patter beware this country could go. I hope you'll wing of the party

:30:44.:30:50.

does not do that again. -- your wing. There were some of negative

:30:50.:30:55.

voices. They did not look at the reality of Britain within the EU.

:30:55.:31:01.

Blurts tried to change towards sensible policies in certain areas.

:31:01.:31:08.

-- let's try. About sovereignty and independence of the nation is not

:31:08.:31:12.

negative. Britain will continue to be a partner whatever arrangement

:31:12.:31:17.

or agreement any subsequent Conservative government might bring

:31:17.:31:20.

about. We need to connect a European project with the British

:31:20.:31:24.

people, otherwise they will become more disenfranchised. Europe will

:31:24.:31:31.

continue to become a key training partner. We need an economic

:31:31.:31:35.

agreement and not a political union. We are becoming more and more

:31:35.:31:39.

towards a political a range of which disenfranchise us British

:31:39.:31:45.

people and disadvantages this country being competitive. In a

:31:45.:31:50.

global world, we have a deficit with -- a Mini to engage more with

:31:50.:31:58.

our partners round the world. -- Alastair Campbell famously said:

:31:58.:32:01.

"We don't do God." And yet, in British politics, God, the Anglican

:32:01.:32:04.

version of him, is everywhere. Prayers are said before each

:32:04.:32:08.

session of the Commons. Our laws have to be passed by the Head of

:32:08.:32:11.

the Church of England, that's the Queen, before they can be enacted.

:32:11.:32:14.

The House of Lords is decorated with unelected bishops. Thousands

:32:14.:32:17.

of England's primary schools are supported by the Church. Should we

:32:17.:32:20.

do something about the fact that having an established church throws

:32:20.:32:30.
:32:30.:32:33.

up all sort of anomalies in modern Of May Allhallows in the City of

:32:33.:32:38.

London on Ash Wednesday. The first day of Lent. City workers to take

:32:38.:32:46.

40 minutes out of life in the third millennium. Remember that you are

:32:46.:32:52.

dust... The does anyone go to church any more? Despite decades of

:32:52.:32:58.

decline in church attendance, people do. A survey as recently as

:32:58.:33:02.

2002 showed that 40% of the population, more than 20 million

:33:02.:33:08.

people, went to church on Christmas Day. The recent economic crisis has

:33:08.:33:15.

increased attendance here. As a city church, we organise a lot of

:33:15.:33:23.

carol services in the lead-up to Christmas. In 2011, we have seen

:33:23.:33:29.

here a very significant growth in attendance. People have been coming,

:33:30.:33:35.

at times of uncertainty, they want to return to something that they

:33:35.:33:42.

know, they want to connect to this greater narrative. And start a

:33:42.:33:48.

conversation and hopefully they will want to continue. But we can't

:33:48.:33:54.

force that, when they're ready they come. The role of the Church of

:33:54.:33:58.

England in our society has not changed that much in several

:33:58.:34:03.

centuries. The monarch must still be a communicant in the Church of

:34:03.:34:08.

England, he or she must not be married to everyone Catholic. 26

:34:08.:34:14.

bishops still have a seat in the House of Lords. A third of

:34:14.:34:18.

England's primary schools are controlled by the Anglican Church.

:34:18.:34:22.

Bob Morris is a constitutional expert, who tells me the vast

:34:22.:34:27.

majority of us are happy to accept the anomalies that come with an

:34:27.:34:31.

ancient established Church. Do think we as the British people have

:34:31.:34:36.

an appetite to go there and start reforming these things? A don't see

:34:36.:34:41.

that anyone wishes to take that head-on. This is likely to generate

:34:41.:34:47.

more heat than light. There will be some specific areas which

:34:47.:34:51.

Parliament will think it desirable to attend to. Some of these issues

:34:51.:34:55.

will arise perhaps when there is the next coronation for the Queen

:34:55.:35:01.

passes away, and the new king will have ideas of his own, how he

:35:01.:35:07.

wishes to relate to religion in a multicultural society. I guess at

:35:07.:35:11.

some stage in the future we will have to decide if we live in a

:35:12.:35:16.

secular or a Christian society. During that debate, I personally am

:35:16.:35:21.

looking forward to using the word, and tea disestablishment terrorism,

:35:21.:35:31.
:35:31.:35:32.

on the Daily Politics, for the first time -

:35:32.:35:34.

antidisestablishmentarianism. Joining us now is the Conservative

:35:34.:35:44.
:35:44.:35:44.

MP, Steve Baker. The Church of England is becoming an atheistic

:35:44.:35:49.

institution. It is remarkably tolerant. Its survival strategy has

:35:49.:35:53.

been to become a largely secular organisation where people get

:35:53.:36:00.

married, from people who have long ago stopped believing in anything

:36:00.:36:06.

supernatural. So, for the Church of England, either they become a truly

:36:06.:36:10.

religious organisation, and leave the centre of British politics and

:36:10.:36:15.

life, or they carry on down the track of becoming a secular

:36:15.:36:20.

organisation with a Christian heritage. Is it true, saying

:36:20.:36:23.

largely they don't believe, or is it they don't preach it in the same

:36:23.:36:29.

weight as they used to, to embrace larger and different congregations?

:36:29.:36:36.

Most of them are so embarrassed in belief, especially in private. And

:36:36.:36:42.

so, really what they want to beat his nice spiritual guides, there

:36:42.:36:48.

would love to welcome other faiths, once again, it reduces the heat on

:36:48.:36:58.
:36:58.:37:00.

them. Spiritual guides, isn't that the role for religion. Spirituality

:37:00.:37:07.

NGOs -- endures. Although that the critique of the Church of England

:37:07.:37:10.

is one we hear, Lee. I wouldn't say it is wrong but I certainly know

:37:10.:37:18.

the Church of England ministers I meet are believers. So, it is a

:37:18.:37:23.

broad church. But, that doesn't mean there is a role for government

:37:23.:37:30.

to get involved in terms of that moral spiritual guidance? Everyone

:37:30.:37:35.

points to back to basics under John Major, getting involved in morality

:37:35.:37:43.

of -- is always dangerous for government. There is a wonderful

:37:43.:37:47.

book by cs Lewis, he developed the idea throughout the ages, all

:37:47.:37:51.

religions have had this common set of values. It is time for

:37:51.:37:55.

politicians to be more humble and realistic about what they can

:37:55.:38:02.

legislate for, to accept a more central approach to morality. When

:38:02.:38:07.

I go to Moscow and All About My values, we have common ground.

:38:07.:38:12.

there any role for politicians in advocating morality, whether it

:38:12.:38:18.

comes to taxation, family-friendly policies, or consultation on gay

:38:18.:38:26.

marriage for example? After 100 years of growing state involvement,

:38:26.:38:31.

the scandals we have had, it is time for politicians to think about

:38:31.:38:34.

what they can realistically achieved by taking this leading

:38:34.:38:37.

role. Which isn't to say they should abdicate, we should all set

:38:37.:38:43.

an example. It is not realistic to legislate to put morality into

:38:43.:38:47.

people's hearts. It can't just be down to religion in terms of giving

:38:47.:38:54.

a lead. The Big Society, which the government has promoted, trying to

:38:54.:38:59.

give moral and spiritual guidance in communities, is difficult

:38:59.:39:04.

outside religion. I do not think government can get involved.

:39:04.:39:09.

Big Society was a terrible idea? its added to educate people

:39:10.:39:15.

morality. Ethics and morality have to be part of a grassroots movement,

:39:15.:39:21.

it is already. Can you do this without religion? The you have to

:39:21.:39:26.

copy of religions. Religions provide a blueprint for how you

:39:26.:39:31.

teach morality. You gather people in communities. You have regular

:39:31.:39:37.

get-togethers, you rehearse ideas, you create a moral idea. The clue

:39:37.:39:43.

is been studying religion, not going to religion. Politicians have

:39:43.:39:47.

not studied religion properly, they have not understood religion. They

:39:47.:39:52.

have taken the worst bits to moralise. If we do it outside of

:39:52.:39:58.

religion we have to study religion. In the area of faith schools, many

:39:58.:40:02.

people would argue they have been successful. They have combined a

:40:02.:40:09.

backdrop of religion with successful academic results. I do

:40:09.:40:15.

support state, faith schools. When we talk about a further expansion,

:40:15.:40:19.

should it be about meeting the needs of parents, or should be

:40:19.:40:23.

directed by the state? Some people object because they find themselves

:40:23.:40:28.

paying through taxation for the faith based education of another

:40:28.:40:33.

person's child. That is a valid objection. We have a state funded

:40:33.:40:37.

education system which most of us agree is bright, but we need to

:40:37.:40:45.

accept British and his pit -- it is part of people's morality. But it

:40:45.:40:48.

is sad be parents are having to fake an interest in religion in

:40:48.:40:55.

order to get a good education. We need good schools with an ethical

:40:55.:40:59.

background and moral programme which is not strictly based on

:40:59.:41:05.

religion. But they have achieved that. For most of us who do believe,

:41:06.:41:12.

we do believe it is about God. I am interested in the relationship of

:41:12.:41:21.

God, not ritual. What I love is the things you're talking about, there

:41:21.:41:26.

needed to have a morality. I am fascinated by your ideas. What I

:41:26.:41:30.

wouldn't want to do is to back those ideas with state power. This

:41:30.:41:34.

is where we have lost track of tolerance, we have forgotten

:41:34.:41:41.

tolerance is a profound disagreement, plus refraining from

:41:41.:41:46.

the use of force. We have moved into a small elite in London

:41:46.:41:52.

imposing its own consensus on everyone. I am saying, let us have

:41:52.:42:00.

a more Polly centric few. We all know times are tough for young

:42:00.:42:04.

people trying to find jobs. And new figures out today show it's not

:42:04.:42:08.

necessarily any easier if you have a degree. New data from the Office

:42:08.:42:10.

for National Statistics shows graduate unemployment is still at

:42:10.:42:13.

its highest level since 1995. The figures also show that more

:42:13.:42:17.

graduates are having to take jobs that don't require a degree. The

:42:17.:42:20.

number of graduates going in to lower skilled jobs stood at just

:42:20.:42:24.

over one in four in 2001. That figure now stands at over one in

:42:24.:42:28.

three today. The figures also show that one new graduate in every five

:42:28.:42:31.

available to work is unemployed. Jamie Jenkins is from the Office

:42:31.:42:39.

for National Statistics. Is it the case that more graduates

:42:39.:42:44.

are having to take jobs which don't require a degree? What we have seen

:42:44.:42:49.

over the last decade, recent graduates who left university and

:42:49.:42:54.

looking for work within six years, that has increased by 40% over the

:42:54.:43:00.

last decade. 1.5 million recent graduates going into the Labour

:43:00.:43:05.

market. Over that same period, we have seen an increase in the

:43:05.:43:13.

percentage of those going into the was killed jobs, up to 36%. What we

:43:13.:43:18.

have seen also is looking at the final quarter of 2011, 86% of

:43:18.:43:28.
:43:28.:43:30.

graduates were in work, scented 2% of non graduates in work. -- 72%.

:43:30.:43:34.

But you don't necessarily need a degree for if many of those jobs in

:43:34.:43:39.

the first place. Normally does that when required getting to a degree

:43:39.:43:44.

level, that has increased up to 36%. Looking out graduates and non-

:43:45.:43:49.

graduates, we have seen the types of pay depending on the subjects

:43:49.:43:56.

they have chosen. We have seen �15 per hour is the average wage if you

:43:56.:44:03.

are a graduate. �9 per Iraq if you are in non-graduate. There are

:44:04.:44:13.
:44:14.:44:18.

large variations. It is obviously much better to go

:44:18.:44:22.

into medicine or law, because you will earn a much higher wage or

:44:22.:44:26.

salary if that is what you're looking for. This continues the

:44:26.:44:31.

argument people have been making for a long time, arts teaching in

:44:31.:44:36.

universities is not playing any productive role in the economy.

:44:36.:44:41.

mean the teaching or that the subject does not play well?

:44:41.:44:46.

subject. And one can doubt whether it is being taught properly in the

:44:46.:44:51.

first place, many graduates complain about the quality. Arts

:44:51.:44:57.

should be playing a role as moral guidance, ethical teaching. But not

:44:57.:45:02.

really as something you are doing to get a job. We have confused the

:45:02.:45:07.

teaching of the arts, a wonderful thing, anyone should took on the

:45:07.:45:14.

weekend, and to make that a degree subject and to expect someone will

:45:14.:45:20.

get a productive jobs, that is the problem. We have confused something

:45:20.:45:25.

that is really good with something else, getting a good job. They are

:45:25.:45:31.

not compatible. So low you wouldn't recommend people to do philosophy?

:45:31.:45:37.

Absolutely not. So there will be a decline in those arts subjects.

:45:37.:45:47.
:45:47.:45:51.

These are of -- these subjects are Yesterday, the Prime Minister

:45:51.:45:57.

reported to the Commons on the heads of European government.

:45:58.:46:02.

Attention turned to whether David Cameron was right to keep Britain

:46:02.:46:12.
:46:12.:46:14.

Can he confirm that for all his claims the European Court of

:46:15.:46:17.

Justice and the European Commission will be fully involved in

:46:17.:46:24.

implementing a treaty? Can he tell us how he find -- found out about

:46:24.:46:29.

the result of the meetings on the issue of economic questions

:46:29.:46:34.

affecting the whole of the UK? The Prime Minister was asked about this

:46:34.:46:39.

and the best he could manage was to save the Prime Minister may not be

:46:39.:46:49.

in the room but he could well beat in the building? It is Elvis! I do

:46:49.:46:55.

not think that is very reassuring. Was there a discussion of the

:46:55.:47:02.

European West -- arrest warrant? A lot of backbenchers want asked to

:47:02.:47:08.

withdraw from it and others want no change battle. Can I suggest he

:47:08.:47:14.

might want to campaign for reform rather than withdraw? This was a

:47:14.:47:17.

European Council devoted to the discussion of the economy and

:47:17.:47:21.

foreign affairs. There was no discussion of the European arrest

:47:21.:47:25.

warrant whatsoever Foster I still have not heard from the party

:47:25.:47:30.

opposite about whether they would sign this treaty or not. Which you

:47:30.:47:40.
:47:40.:47:49.

sign it? Not for yes, Sheikh for no. other way. Even Wallace & Gromit

:47:49.:47:55.

could do this. This is farcical. This thing exists. Would you sign

:47:55.:48:05.

it or not? Utterly, utterly feeble. Despite jockeying for position, why

:48:05.:48:08.

does the Prime Minster think his European colleagues might wish to

:48:09.:48:14.

ignore his advice on how to grope their economies? I think that would

:48:14.:48:19.

have been better if it stayed in the stalls. It would never have

:48:19.:48:27.

made it out onto the course. That was the Commons yesterday on Europe.

:48:27.:48:30.

And, today, a group of Conservative MPs has set out new proposals for

:48:30.:48:33.

changes to European employment law. The Fresh Start group says halving

:48:33.:48:36.

the burden of regulations imposed by Brussels on British business

:48:36.:48:41.

would deliver a massive boost to our economy. And joining us now is

:48:41.:48:44.

one of the authors of that report, Andrea Leadsom, and, alongside her,

:48:44.:48:53.

Labour's Jack Dromey. I have had a brief look at the pamphlet. Are you

:48:53.:48:58.

calling for dismantling of the aspects of social employment

:48:58.:49:01.

regulation that accompany the be you? We're trying to set up what

:49:01.:49:05.

the options are and what the consequences are of current

:49:05.:49:10.

legislation affecting the UK. It has all been implemented them Berry

:49:10.:49:15.

is a big cost to the economy. The Chancellor does not have much money

:49:15.:49:21.

in the coffers. He needs to be looking at regulation. The bulk of

:49:21.:49:26.

that comes out of the EU. At the same time, abandoning rights for

:49:26.:49:30.

workers in terms of their conditions, the hours they work,

:49:30.:49:34.

the brakes they are allowed to have, which had been in existence for

:49:34.:49:39.

quite a while. Not necessarily. say that is what you would be able

:49:39.:49:43.

to do. You would like Britain to come out of those arrangements

:49:43.:49:46.

where employers to have some restrictions on what they can

:49:46.:49:50.

expect workers to do. These sorts of restrictions we have major

:49:50.:49:55.

problems with our, with the agency workers directive, where, after 12

:49:55.:49:59.

weeks you are entitled to maternity pay and to the same rights as if

:49:59.:50:05.

you were a fully employed person, that is restricting jobs. It is

:50:05.:50:08.

winning back companies are getting rid of people after 11.5 weeks to

:50:08.:50:13.

avoid having to meet those restrictions. We want to get rid of

:50:13.:50:16.

the problems and barriers to creating new implement. What is

:50:16.:50:20.

wrong with that? It is fundamentally wrong to have a

:50:20.:50:28.

workforce divided. It is wrong to exploit agency workers on the one

:50:28.:50:32.

hand or to undercut the directly employed on the other hand. What

:50:32.:50:38.

Andrea has done, I think, perhaps starting to take us in the

:50:38.:50:42.

direction of coming clean about what the agenda is all about. It is

:50:42.:50:48.

the bizarre notion that, if you have low reach -- wages and

:50:48.:50:53.

produced workers' rights, that is the key to economic success. Also,

:50:53.:50:57.

of the consequences. If you read the pamphlet carefully, I have read

:50:57.:51:01.

what the authors of the pamphlet have said, it is about less

:51:01.:51:06.

protection in terms of long working hours, less protection in terms of

:51:06.:51:10.

safety at work, less protection in terms of equal treatment at work.

:51:10.:51:15.

Anyone who has worked in will be involved with the real world of

:51:15.:51:21.

work will know that how you treat employers is crucial. It is not a

:51:21.:51:25.

recipe for economic success in Britain. What evidence to have that

:51:25.:51:30.

it will lead to economic success? I completely disagree with what he

:51:30.:51:35.

has said. It is not about cutting workers' rights. It is about

:51:35.:51:42.

repatriating powers to Britain. The problem I have... In order to

:51:42.:51:45.

change the legislation so that it better suits the British economy

:51:45.:51:51.

and the needs of Britain right now. There is a key principle of

:51:51.:51:57.

subsidiarity that says, Werritty is a vocal only issue, the national

:51:57.:52:03.

government should make the decisions. -- where it is a local

:52:03.:52:11.

only issue. There are real barriers to young people finding work in

:52:11.:52:17.

companies. It is not calling for repatriation. It is talking about

:52:17.:52:21.

the implications of the potential for Britain to create new jobs if

:52:21.:52:25.

we were to repatriate those powers and use them more flexibly

:52:25.:52:29.

ourselves. What is the point of doing this if you are not calling

:52:29.:52:34.

for it? One of the things I noticed is that you admitted would be

:52:34.:52:37.

extremely difficult to achieve - you would not be able to have the

:52:37.:52:40.

sort of power to persuade people to do this. Is said that a case that

:52:40.:52:46.

you do not think it is achievable. What we're doing is the research

:52:46.:52:51.

into will areas of EU policy - looking at what the options are for

:52:51.:52:54.

change and the likelihood of being able to achieve those changes.

:52:54.:52:57.

Further work needs to be done to prioritise what would be the best

:52:57.:53:02.

bits to renegotiate for Britain, bearing in mind that EU reform is

:53:02.:53:06.

inevitable. I think Andrea is an outrider for George Osborne. There

:53:06.:53:12.

is a deeply held view that what they want to do is roll back the

:53:12.:53:16.

protection of workers on transfer. I was at fault in a test case to

:53:16.:53:23.

cover 6 million workers X-SCID by Mrs Thatcher. -- I was involved.

:53:23.:53:29.

George Osborne has said, we want to go back down a pass. Andrea is the

:53:29.:53:37.

outrider for that. -- that path. Do we really want to be going down the

:53:37.:53:42.

path of Dog eat Dog competition on the downward spiral of wages? That

:53:42.:53:47.

is not the kind of Britain or Europe I think that British people

:53:47.:53:50.

want. Our guest of the day is, of course, the philosopher, Alain de

:53:50.:53:53.

Botton, who has written extensively on many things including happiness.

:53:53.:53:56.

Back when he was in Opposition, you may remember, David Cameron was

:53:56.:53:58.

very keen on measuring happiness, or economic well-being, and

:53:58.:54:03.

treating those figures as if they were as important as GDP. This may

:54:03.:54:07.

come as good news to the people of Northern Ireland, who we discovered

:54:07.:54:09.

in last week's Prime Minister's Questions are the most joyous in

:54:09.:54:17.

the nation. The Prime Minister may have seen the headlines that the

:54:17.:54:27.
:54:27.:54:28.

happiness of people living in Northern Ireland... And, er... As

:54:28.:54:31.

the major party of government for the last five years in Northern

:54:31.:54:36.

Ireland, but we are not surprised by that. I am delighted to hear

:54:36.:54:40.

that the people of Northern Ireland on happiest in the United Kingdom.

:54:40.:54:45.

I have to say their representatives in this house to not always give

:54:45.:54:51.

that impression. -- House. Maybe I have been missing something. So, is

:54:51.:54:54.

measuring happiness a good idea? Joining me now from Oxford is a ray

:54:54.:54:57.

of sunshine, otherwise known as the FT's undercover economist and the

:54:57.:55:03.

presenter of Radio 4's More or Less, Tim Harford. Is it a good idea to

:55:03.:55:09.

measure happiness? It is not a bad idea. Measuring happiness is an

:55:09.:55:14.

endlessly fascinating subject. What has been discussed is not a big

:55:14.:55:18.

deal. The Office for National Statistics have huge surveys they

:55:18.:55:23.

already conduct. They have added four simple questions to some of

:55:23.:55:28.

these surveys and covered in the answers are. I do not think the

:55:28.:55:31.

results will be transformative. I do not think there will lead to a

:55:31.:55:35.

radical shift in policy. They tell us that people really hate being

:55:35.:55:40.

unemployed and people really hate being ill and sick. I do not think

:55:40.:55:46.

it will transform policy. At the same time, it is not very hard to

:55:46.:55:51.

add questions to a question you are already answering -- asking. It is

:55:51.:55:56.

not worth spending money on, is it? The answers to those questions are

:55:56.:56:01.

no surprise. People do not like the unemployed and people do not like

:56:01.:56:05.

being killed. It is not worth spending any money on. They hardly

:56:05.:56:10.

are spending any money on this. It is adding a few extra questions to

:56:10.:56:14.

existing questionnaire. The actual questions are often described as

:56:14.:56:20.

much unhappiness. What is going on is more subtle. How satisfied you

:56:20.:56:27.

with your life as a whole? The second question is do you think

:56:27.:56:34.

what you're doing in your life is worthwhile? How happy did you feel

:56:34.:56:44.
:56:44.:57:00.

These are a snapshot of the day, what indication does it truly give

:57:00.:57:06.

us? The direction of this research is really good. It is sane humans

:57:06.:57:10.

care about a lot of things other than just money. We care about time,

:57:11.:57:16.

for example. There are fascinating statistics, some people will trade

:57:16.:57:23.

at a certain amount of money for time. Also, things like by the

:57:23.:57:30.

people live in an attractive or body Environment, that plays a huge

:57:30.:57:34.

role in how people make decisions. For too long we have had a vision

:57:34.:57:40.

of Economics which has assumed human beings are totally dictated

:57:40.:57:50.
:57:50.:58:02.

by always Max amazing the income. - Money can't buy us happiness but it

:58:02.:58:08.

does help. It does buy happiness. There are other surprises. You

:58:08.:58:12.

won't be surprised to hear people seem to be happy when they are

:58:12.:58:15.

praying. People are not particularly happy when they are

:58:15.:58:25.
:58:25.:58:29.

Thank you for joining us. That is all for today. Thanks to our guests

:58:29.:58:33.

and thank you to you. The One o'clock News is starting it up on

:58:33.:58:43.

BBC One and I will be back with Andrew Tyrie at 11:30pm -- 11:30am.

:58:43.:58:48.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Alain de Botton discusses whether Britain is still a Christian country and the Conservative party's Mark Pritchard explains why he resigned as deputy chairman of the Conservative Party International Office.


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