23/03/2012 Daily Politics


23/03/2012

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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. So it's last orders

:00:37.:00:40.

for cheap booze. The Prime Minister is worried about irresponsible

:00:40.:00:44.

drinking and says he wants to put an end to scenes like this on our

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streets. To that end, he wants to introduce a minimum price for

:00:51.:00:55.

alcohol and a ban on cheap deals. The debate over the granny tax is

:00:55.:00:58.

still raging, but is it really the chancellor's biggest Budget

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blunder? We will be on the campaign trail in the Bradford West by-

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election. And we will be getting to the

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bottom of Speaker Bercow's kaleidoscopic speech about the

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:01:22.:01:22.

Queen. All that in the next hour. And with

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us for the programme today are Iain Martin, who writes for the Sunday

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:01:35.:01:38.

Telegraph, and the Independent columnist Steve Richards. What a

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dream team. If you have any thoughts or comments on anything we

:01:41.:01:51.
:01:51.:01:52.

are discussing, you can send them to us. Let's start with the biggest

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political event of the week, George Osborne's third Budget. And it is

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one that is still ruffling feathers and threatening the chancellor's

:02:01.:02:06.

reputation as a master strategist. So was it a Budget for working

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people or a budget for millionaires? A budget to clobber

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the rich, or clobber a granny? Or was it, dare we say, just a bit of

:02:15.:02:25.
:02:25.:02:27.

a mess? I would go for the last of those questions. Surprisingly. I

:02:27.:02:31.

have never understood why George Osborne is regarded as a master

:02:31.:02:35.

strategist. I do not think it is based on March, be on when he

:02:35.:02:39.

announced that he would abolish inheritance tax and stopped the

:02:39.:02:45.

early election. But Mr Brown did bottle out. That was the moment on

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which it was based. But more widely, I have never understood on what

:02:49.:02:55.

basis is regarded as this tactical genius. I am mystified as to why he

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did not put more work into the tactics of this Budget. Why didn't

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he prepared the ground for taxing wealthy pensioners? Why didn't he

:03:05.:03:12.

prepare more fully from his part? I am genuinely mystified. You would

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have thought they would have talked about what they wanted the press to

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say the next day and gone about getting it ready. But I see no

:03:21.:03:27.

evidence of that. Is des two after the Budget any better than they

:03:27.:03:33.

want? No, it seems to be getting worse. We have all seen budgets

:03:33.:03:43.
:03:43.:03:43.

unravel, but this one has been special. Those of us who have

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written for years and questioned George Osborne's reputation as a

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political genius are feeling a flush of vindication. When he was

:03:51.:03:58.

in Washington last week on the Cameron-Obama jaunt, sophisticates

:03:58.:04:01.

around Osborne said all was well and that he could afford to go to

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America for a few days. Now it looks as though he should have been

:04:05.:04:10.

in London, doing more work on the Budget. We will come on to the

:04:10.:04:14.

substance of the so-called granny tax in a minute, but you can see

:04:14.:04:19.

the problems it has caused. There is a broad case, however, for doing

:04:19.:04:25.

what he is trying to do. But they made no effort to prepare the

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ground, as Steve said. Everyone was taken by surprise. The can feel a

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certain sympathy in that as the population ages and more people

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would be on 70, it makes sense. But you have to make a big argument and

:04:39.:04:44.

be honest about it. It is the way you do it. Any strategist could see

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this. Six months before the Budget, start writing articles about

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generation inequality. Then say there is a case for getting more

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money of the pensioners who have done very well over the last few

:04:57.:05:02.

years. And distinguish that not all pensioners are living in a scullery

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with no money. Then you would get papers calling for a tax of this

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kind. Then leaked the fact that you are thinking of doing it. If all

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hell breaks loose, don't do it. If you sense that it is going in your

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direction, you announce it to regretful country. I can see a job

:05:20.:05:26.

offer coming your way. But it is not just the granny tax. That might

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be excusable. It is the mess on child benefit, where rather than

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admitting that they made a mistake and scrapping it, they have put in

:05:35.:05:38.

its place something incredibly complex which creates a marginal

:05:38.:05:45.

rate of tax for those between 50 and 60 if they dare to have kids of

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up to 65%. Then look at the 40p. That is the real bombshell that

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will do the most damage. When this government came to power, 3 million

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people paid 40p tax. When they leave power, it will be 5 million

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people. It is extraordinary that a Tory Chancellor is doing this.

:06:05.:06:11.

he has several more budgets. This is a mid- term Budget, the last one

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where as a Chancellor, you can take risks and do what you believe in

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rather than what you think is electorally necessary. The next few

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will be made much more with the election in mind. You are right,

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the papers are just as bad as yesterday, but there was an old

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maxim that budgets which are trashed the day after, by the

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following week are praised. And budgets that are praised are

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trashed the week after. I have always had that. We shall see the

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Sunday papers this week. It will be interesting. So is the Sunday

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Politics. Well, MPs spent most of yesterday

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debating the Budget. Here is a flavour of what was said.

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Yesterday's Budget was described by the Economist as more of a

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newspaper review and a Budget. Another said the Budget had all the

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leak free qualities of a teabag in a sieve. It might be quicker to

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list what the papers did not publish beforehand. For the benefit

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of the house,... The they call this a Robin Hood Budget! But they have

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got it the wrong way round. Robin Hood took from the rich to give to

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the poor. This Budget takes from low and middle-income families to

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give to the rich. The Chancellor is not Robin Hood. He is the Sheriff

:07:42.:07:48.

of Nottingham. As for jobs and growth, he couldn't give a Friar

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Tuck, Mr Deputy Speaker. Being lectured now on how to manage an

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economy is like being given a talk on seamanship by the captain of the

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Costa Concordia, another believer in light touch steering. Can we

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have a statement on the higher rate of tax? The Sun account on Twitter

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is reporting that friends of the Prime Minister say he does pay the

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higher rate of taxation. We have not heard from friends of the

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Chancellor, or doesn't you have any left after mugging the nation's

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grannies yesterday? Why should this outbreak of openness be confined to

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members on this side of the house? I'll hope the honourable member

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will try and persuade all his friends to be as open as he wants

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us to be. Her So the so-called granny tax

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dominated much of proceedings. We thought we would have our own

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little debate about the measure today. Joining us now is the editor

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at large of Saga magazine, Emma Soames, and Ed Howker, who wrote

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The Jilted Generation. Emma Soames, the poor pensioners are not

:09:12.:09:16.

affected by this, because they do not pay tax. Wealthy pensioners do

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not get any benefit, because they do not get, they lose the allowance

:09:23.:09:28.

anyway. So it is mainly the middle band of pensioners we are talking

:09:28.:09:33.

about. Isn't there a case for a lining everybody's personal

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allowance to be the same? people who are being affected by

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this new age allowance are the people who have spent all their

:09:46.:09:54.

lives working harder to build up modest amounts of savings. It is a

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kick in the solar plexus that they build up these funds and then find

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that in one rather throwaway line, not even called a tax, but a

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simplification, that they will be �4 a week worse off. It is hitting

:10:12.:10:18.

4 million pensioners. Those who are already pensioners will have their

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tax-free threshold frozen at �10,500. In cash terms, they are

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not losing out. The ones losing out are those who are about to become

:10:31.:10:35.

pensioners. They would have had a tax-free threshold of �10,500 which

:10:35.:10:42.

will now be �9,200. But it will rise after that. The intention is

:10:42.:10:48.

to increase that by 2014-�10,000. But it will be frozen until that

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happens for everybody. The threshold for existing

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pensioners will be frozen, but for those who are just becoming

:10:56.:11:03.

pensioners, their threshold will rise in line with everybody else's

:11:03.:11:13.
:11:13.:11:13.

firstly to �9,100 and then to �10,000. The reason it has had so

:11:13.:11:18.

much impact, it is not the number of people affected, but if you are

:11:18.:11:23.

64, you have done a lot of financial planning. You know you

:11:23.:11:28.

will retire next year. You know you were probably worth -- be worse off

:11:28.:11:33.

when not working. You may have seen a financial adviser and discovered

:11:33.:11:38.

that what you thought you would get as a pension will not be anything

:11:38.:11:43.

like it because of quantitative easing. But we agree that if there

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are losers from this move, and there is no question about that,

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the real losers are those who are about to become pensioners, rather

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than existing pensioners, who will simply suffer a freeze on the

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threshold. The yes, but those who are may freeze once inflation kicks

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in, will also suffer. That is true, inflation is under 3% and falling,

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so it may not be too bad for them. It will cost them about �83 a year

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if you are an existing pensioner. When you are cutting taxes for

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those earning over �150,000 a year, what is the point in going for

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pensioners? I am not sure it is appropriate that the Government has

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made that cut. But pensioners have done terribly well in the last ten

:12:37.:12:42.

years. They have higher rising disposable income than young people.

:12:43.:12:48.

Some of your arguments are powerful, because if you look at NUT rates

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and the way in which pensioners' savings have not grown, they have

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had trouble, but they are more successful than other parts of the

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population. My pitch is straight forward. Young people trying real

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trouble. 2 million under-thirties are unemployed. There are

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opportunities are disappearing. It would be better to concentrate on

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their needs and some of that pension a wealth was moved towards

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creating jobs for them. So because of the way the economy has been

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going, because it is tougher for young people now than it was for

:13:25.:13:32.

the most recent generation, but not compared to the '20s and '30s,

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there for all people, who have paid their taxes and worked all their

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lives should suffer? De point is straight forward. We have a

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colossal longevity problem in this country. We are living too long?

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it is wonderful that we have a longevity problem. But it is a

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problem for the Government, because they have not prepared for it.

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Britain has a pay-as-you-go pension system, which means no savings have

:13:59.:14:03.

been made for future generations. That means the current generations,

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many of whom are unemployed, have to pay these bills. That is not

:14:08.:14:12.

inappropriate. Of course pensioners should be treated well. In fact,

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they are. They get a massive tax break because they do not pay

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national insurance. They are not working. But when they are working,

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they do not pay. Well, of course pensioners should have more

:14:28.:14:32.

disposable income than 23-year-olds. Unless you are called Master Gates

:14:33.:14:40.

almost good with. -- or Miss could win. They have worked all their

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lives and save for maybe 35 years of their working life. It would be

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worrying if they did not have disposable income. The way of

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kicking down wealth is to allow it to happen to families, inheritance

:14:57.:15:00.

and all the people being able to paddle their own can news and not

:15:00.:15:07.

become a burden on their children, rather than having a big stick of

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government saying that old people are using up too many bedrooms and

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have to move out of their house, which is outrageous. We are

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expecting people on welfare benefits to move out of their

:15:19.:15:29.
:15:29.:15:33.

houses. But they are not their I think we could all agree, what

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the Government is doing his defence of the law not, but pensioners vote

:15:37.:15:42.

and the turnout of pensioners is much higher than the average. They

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are an important political constituency. Will this have an

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impact? Yes, I think it is a massive political risk whatever you

:15:50.:15:55.

think of the substance. I think there is a case that they do make a

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higher contribution. Although M a powerfully explains the

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implications for the losses they will make, everybody is making

:16:04.:16:08.

losses at the moment. There's no reason why they should be excluded,

:16:08.:16:12.

but there's always been a powerful political reason, which is they

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vote, they pay attention. If do you think this will have a political

:16:16.:16:21.

impact on pensioner's? I do. It is as much to do with the way it has

:16:21.:16:29.

been handled as to do with... They are not fools, they feel patronised,

:16:29.:16:33.

furious. It was the only thing in the Budget that was not trailed.

:16:33.:16:38.

Who did he think... Just by calling it a simplification, people

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wouldn't notice. What is your take? This will be one of the big

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emerging themes of politics in the next 20 to 30 years, the sense of

:16:47.:16:52.

inter-generational conflict and tension as society continues to age.

:16:53.:16:57.

Our political parties and commentators haven't really started

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to grapple with this. It will have all sorts of interesting

:17:00.:17:06.

consequences. I think political leaders will become older. Why will

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those who are still working aged 70, who will massively outnumbered the

:17:10.:17:15.

young, why will they vote forever for 40 year-olds who seemed to be

:17:15.:17:21.

learning on the job? It will force politicians to pick sides between

:17:21.:17:26.

the young and the old. All right. We don't have time to talk about it,

:17:26.:17:29.

but the Chancellor talked about linking the retirement age to

:17:29.:17:32.

longevity, which means the retirement age could be rising

:17:32.:17:38.

indefinitely. I totally agree with that and I also think the new

:17:38.:17:41.

retirement model of people working flexibly and not falling off a

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cliff edge... It is not either or any more. Exactly. Thank you. Time

:17:48.:17:53.

for the daily quiz. Which of these will not cost any more as a result

:17:53.:18:03.
:18:03.:18:05.

A rotisserie chicken, hairdressers chairs, Jaffa cakes or hot Cornish

:18:05.:18:13.

pasty East. Interestingly eclectic mix. Steve Andean, who are looking

:18:13.:18:17.

bemused, will maybe give us the correct answer at the end of the

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show. Easy to work out. Once, Chancellors sipped it when

:18:20.:18:23.

they delivered their Budget, but now the Government worries it is

:18:23.:18:26.

cheaper than the preferred tipple of choice at the despatch box these

:18:26.:18:30.

days - water. So what's their solution? You've guessed it - they

:18:30.:18:32.

want to lighten our pockets. According to the Home Secretary,

:18:32.:18:35.

the Government wants to affect the cheapest end of alcohol that allows

:18:35.:18:38.

people to do something called pre- loading - that's filling up with

:18:38.:18:48.
:18:48.:18:49.

alcohol before they go out. So what's the plan? The Government

:18:49.:18:53.

wants to consult on a 40p minimum wants to consult on a 40p minimum

:18:53.:18:56.

price per unit of alcohol. That means a �2.99 bottle of red wine,

:18:56.:19:04.

containing 9.4 units of alcohol, would be priced up to �3.76. Cheap,

:19:04.:19:07.

strong lager at 75p a can, with three units per can, would become

:19:07.:19:15.

at least �1.20. It would also considerably increase the price on

:19:15.:19:20.

bulk purchases. So, for example, two crates of 20 cans of cider

:19:20.:19:24.

which could be bought for �20 at one point last year would now cost

:19:24.:19:30.

at least �37.30. Government projections, based on a 40p minimum

:19:30.:19:33.

price, show healthcare costs would drop by �30 million in the first

:19:33.:19:43.
:19:43.:19:49.

year and �93 million by the tenth year. There would be 50,600 fewer

:19:49.:19:59.
:19:59.:20:08.

crimes each year, saving �54 And 12,600 fewer violent crimes,

:20:08.:20:13.

reducing costs by �37 million a year. You can believe these figures

:20:13.:20:17.

if you want! Let's see what Theresa May had to say in the House of

:20:17.:20:23.

Commons this morning. This strategy is targeted explicitly at dangerous

:20:23.:20:26.

drinkers, problem pubs, irresponsible shops and harmful

:20:26.:20:31.

drinks. Those who enjoy a quiet drink or two have nothing to fear

:20:31.:20:35.

from these proposals. The local pub has nothing to fear, the

:20:35.:20:39.

responsible off-licence has nothing to fear. We will help tackle

:20:39.:20:43.

problem drinkers. We will help local areas deal with local

:20:43.:20:47.

licensing problems. We will encourage the alcohol industry to

:20:47.:20:52.

act responsibly and we will put a stop to the easy availability of

:20:52.:20:56.

cheap booze that has blighted Britain for too long. The Home

:20:56.:21:00.

Secretary and the measures will apply to England and Wales., and is

:21:00.:21:04.

doing something similar, slightly ahead of what is doing -- happening

:21:04.:21:12.

in England. We are joined by Testament and Jane Davies, the

:21:13.:21:15.

Director of Public affairs at the British Retail Consortium. What

:21:15.:21:19.

evidence is there that raising the price by these relatively small

:21:19.:21:22.

amounts will affect how young people drink? It is pretty clear

:21:22.:21:27.

that young people choose not to go to pubs, not to go into clubs, and

:21:27.:21:30.

actually to buy alcohol in the supermarket or to get somebody else

:21:30.:21:34.

to buy it for them in supermarkets and off-licences. Those who are

:21:34.:21:41.

less responsible. If you can get to a point way you can buy a pint of

:21:41.:21:47.

beer for 34p and cider for 48p, not been responsible pubs, we know we

:21:47.:21:52.

need to do something. What is the evidence that increasing the price,

:21:52.:21:57.

they will not simply move... In some of the prices, the change in a

:21:57.:22:02.

bottle of wine is not that big. is not meant to be. Where's the

:22:02.:22:05.

evidence that they will simply move their drinking habits or spend

:22:05.:22:11.

more... A lot of it is price related. When the local supermarket

:22:11.:22:17.

reduces the price, the sales go up. Supermarkets don't sell cheap booze

:22:17.:22:19.

because they are feeling terribly generous, they do it because they

:22:20.:22:25.

sell more. Have you been to Norway on a Friday night? And no. It is

:22:25.:22:30.

�10 for a pint of beer in Oslo in some pubs. And there are a lot of

:22:30.:22:36.

drunk people around. Why does price matter? It matters a lot. What is

:22:36.:22:40.

really important is the local farmers who are selling side on

:22:40.:22:46.

their premises and the local pubs who are trying to sell alcohol in

:22:46.:22:53.

their hostelries in my area of Somerset. I used the example of

:22:53.:22:58.

Juliet, the landlady of a local pub. She said she is outraged that the

:22:58.:23:04.

Tesco up the road can sell for 34p a pint of fear. For competition.

:23:04.:23:08.

she did that and she served to people who were drunk already, she

:23:08.:23:15.

would lose her licence. The point of this is it is not to help your

:23:15.:23:19.

pub landlord, it is to stop drugs and roaming the streets in the

:23:19.:23:24.

evening in our city and town centres. -- drunks. Isn't it? Or

:23:24.:23:30.

hidden subsidies to pubs. doesn't damage pubs. If you look at

:23:30.:23:35.

the average hospital a Andy at the weekends, it is appalling. -- A and

:23:35.:23:44.

D. I am trying to get the evidence where price would make a difference.

:23:44.:23:50.

The accusation in your trade is that you are selling things

:23:50.:23:53.

sometimes as loss-leaders and disgracefully low prices and you

:23:53.:23:58.

should be more responsible. First of all, you don't make a successful

:23:58.:24:04.

business out of selling at a loss. The vast majority of lines, even

:24:04.:24:08.

when on promotion, are not loss- leaders. Secondly, we have to bear

:24:08.:24:14.

in mind that we have prices here in the UK that of 50% higher than

:24:14.:24:19.

throughout the rest of Europe. For it is not simply a matter of price.

:24:19.:24:23.

Indeed, in Scotland, Alex Salmond has said that consumption in

:24:23.:24:28.

Scotland is 20% higher than England when the prices are the same. This

:24:28.:24:32.

is a cultural issue. Pricing will not be the silver bullet that

:24:32.:24:36.

solves the problem. Let me give you three cities where booze is just as

:24:36.:24:43.

plentiful and often cheaper than in London. New York, Dubai, Paris. And

:24:43.:24:48.

you don't see gangs of drunks are roaming the streets in any of these

:24:48.:24:54.

three cities. It is a cultural problem. What does it have to do

:24:54.:24:59.

with it? The market is sensitive to price and young people, the ones we

:24:59.:25:04.

really need to try to stop arming themselves and harming other people

:25:04.:25:08.

and other people's property, they are sensitive to price. There's no

:25:08.:25:14.

question. Why do you think in New York, for example, there are not

:25:14.:25:20.

kids roaming the streets drunk. If you do, the police pick you up. You

:25:20.:25:23.

will spend a night in jail and if you do it again, you will go to

:25:23.:25:28.

jail. Yes. On our streets, that doesn't happen. We have a different

:25:28.:25:33.

culture. Police are too soft. don't think so. They are much

:25:33.:25:37.

tougher in New York and Paris and Dubai. I was listening to one of my

:25:37.:25:41.

colleagues this morning talking about the 1898 in the Prince act

:25:41.:25:44.

which is something else I would like to look at bringing into my

:25:44.:25:49.

part of Somerset. You are just a Nani state interference. You want a

:25:49.:25:54.

micro-manage halides. You want to fix the price of booze. What does

:25:54.:25:58.

it have to do with you, you're a politician? It is about

:25:58.:26:05.

protecting... Vast resources are being wasted on crimes related to

:26:05.:26:10.

alcohol, resource is being wasted on the health systems, dealing with

:26:10.:26:14.

people who were ill. Look at the explosion of people who need

:26:14.:26:17.

treatment for liver disease. don't you just put the prices up a

:26:17.:26:26.

bit? Retailing is a very competitive business, particularly

:26:26.:26:29.

at the moment. One in four families are saying they run out of money by

:26:30.:26:35.

the end of the month anyway. Making money out of people who then go on

:26:35.:26:39.

the rampage on our streets late at night after buying products from

:26:39.:26:46.

your members. Are you proud of that? 75% of men and four out of

:26:46.:26:52.

five women drink responsibly. is not what we are talking about.

:26:52.:26:57.

Consumption of alcohol is going down because of a lot of different

:26:57.:27:04.

issues that are being taken forward to change that culture. We are

:27:04.:27:09.

talking about those... The ones who drink responsibly on not pre-

:27:09.:27:12.

loading on cheap cider and cheap beer. They are having a glass of

:27:12.:27:17.

Chardonnay of an evening. They are also the ones with health problems.

:27:17.:27:21.

At least they are not on the rampage and affecting me. Why don't

:27:21.:27:26.

you just be responsible and put the prices of these really low priced

:27:26.:27:31.

alcohol units up and then the interfering politicians would not

:27:31.:27:38.

have to get involved? We are responsible. We have taken the lead

:27:38.:27:42.

as the sector in insuring that people understand the number of

:27:42.:27:49.

units there are in a drink. It is a competitive market. Her if you all

:27:49.:27:54.

but the price up... It is dangerous if we start getting into territory

:27:54.:27:59.

where it governments are dictating prices. What is your view? I think

:27:59.:28:07.

we need maximum alcohol prices. The British have a problem with this,

:28:07.:28:12.

but I don't think it is all about price, I think it is about culture.

:28:12.:28:15.

Something changed in the British psyche 40 years ago. Youngsters

:28:16.:28:22.

started drinking in this way, in a way their predecessors hadn't. That

:28:22.:28:28.

can't just be about price. It might be a small factor, but something

:28:28.:28:34.

deeper has happened culturally. Quite what the state to do things.

:28:34.:28:38.

-- I want the state to do things. I wish they would tell me to stop

:28:38.:28:48.
:28:48.:28:49.

drinking as much mind as I do -- wine. Stop drinking! The smoking

:28:49.:28:52.

ban was arguably one of the most important things the previous

:28:52.:28:56.

government did. It was never in the manifesto, but it changed behaviour

:28:56.:29:01.

for the better. If pricing makes a difference, and I suspect it will,

:29:01.:29:09.

I supported. We shall see. We have run out of time. Thank you.

:29:09.:29:12.

David Cameron is in Scotland today, where he's been addressing the

:29:12.:29:15.

Scottish Conservatives' annual conference. This is what he had to

:29:15.:29:23.

say. Not only can you love Scotland and love the United Kingdom, not

:29:23.:29:28.

only can you drape yourself in the Saltire and the Union Jack, but let

:29:28.:29:33.

me say this. You can be even prouder of your Scottish heritage

:29:33.:29:37.

than your British heritage, as many in Scotland are, and still believe

:29:37.:29:42.

that Scotland is better off in Britain. All of this is why this

:29:42.:29:46.

Prime Minister and his party is going to fight for the United

:29:46.:29:50.

Kingdom with everything we've got. That was the prime minister

:29:50.:29:53.

speaking in Scotland. With us now is David Mundall, the

:29:53.:30:02.

Scotland Office Minister. Why are the Scottish Tories so

:30:02.:30:09.

useless? I don't accept that analysis. Everybody knows we have

:30:09.:30:15.

had our difficulties, but at the UK general election, one in six people

:30:15.:30:20.

in Scotland was voting Conservative. I'm in Troon, which has a council

:30:20.:30:23.

run by the Conservatives. The Conservatives are representing

:30:23.:30:29.

people in Scotland. We have to do better, we have a dynamic new

:30:29.:30:32.

leader in Ruth Davidson who will turn around our fortunes, but we

:30:32.:30:38.

have a big part to play in the campaign coming up to save the UK,

:30:38.:30:42.

keep Scotland at the heart of the UK, and as David Cameron said, that

:30:42.:30:52.
:30:52.:30:52.

In the Westminster elections in 1997, the Scottish Tories were

:30:52.:31:01.

wiped out. You had no MPs after that, is that right? We had no MPs

:31:01.:31:08.

after 1997. But since 2005, I have been an MP here. How many do you

:31:08.:31:15.

have now? We have me. I am the sole Conservative MP in Scotland. It is

:31:15.:31:20.

not a position I sought, to be the sole MP, but one in six people in

:31:20.:31:26.

Scotland did vote Conservative. 420,000 Scots voted Conservative in

:31:26.:31:32.

the UK general election. So you have added one MP in 15 years, that

:31:32.:31:36.

is your rate of progress. That means that to become a majority of

:31:36.:31:43.

Scottish MPs, it would take you 450 years to become a majority again?

:31:43.:31:50.

Is that your sense of purpose? are not setting out that prospect.

:31:50.:31:59.

We want to grow the number of Conservative MPs in Scotland. We

:31:59.:32:04.

want to grow the number of councillors. There are councillors

:32:04.:32:08.

all over Scotland representing our party in local government. We have

:32:08.:32:13.

16 MSPs in the Scottish parliament. Scottish Conservatives are speaking

:32:13.:32:17.

out for Scotland on issues that represent our values. Of course we

:32:17.:32:24.

want to do better. That is why we have a young leader who is

:32:24.:32:27.

transforming our party's organisation and bringing forward a

:32:27.:32:32.

new policy platform. And most importantly, putting us at the

:32:32.:32:36.

centre of the debate around the future of Scotland. But I do not

:32:36.:32:41.

see the progress you are talking about. You have gone from zero MPs

:32:41.:32:49.

to one MP in 15 years. In 1999, you got 18 Conservatives elected on 15%

:32:49.:32:55.

of the vote. In 2011, you got 15 elected on at 11.6% of the vote.

:32:55.:33:04.

You have gone backwards. We do not suggest that things have been easy.

:33:04.:33:09.

Or that we would not want to do better. That is why Ruth Davidson

:33:09.:33:13.

has become our leader, with a platform of taking forward new

:33:13.:33:17.

policies and new organisation, taking our message to the people of

:33:17.:33:21.

Scotland. One of the ro most important things to do is to say to

:33:21.:33:26.

people who have voted SNP on the basis of Conservative policies such

:33:26.:33:34.

as low council tax and business rates is that their vote is

:33:34.:33:37.

actually a vote to break up Britain. If you want to see these policies

:33:37.:33:44.

pursued and keep the UK, you should vote Conservative. Give my regards

:33:44.:33:53.

to that lovely town of Troon on the Ayrshire coast. Iain Martin, the

:33:53.:33:57.

fact is that progress from the Scottish Conservatives has actually

:33:57.:34:00.

been glacial or in reverse from the number of seats they have in the

:34:00.:34:05.

Scottish parliament. And yet in Wales, the Conservatives have had a

:34:05.:34:11.

comeback. Why in Wales and not Scotland? Is stars look as though

:34:12.:34:19.

what happened in 1997 was not a blip, it was an extinction event.

:34:19.:34:25.

The politics of the Thatcher period, now more than two decades ago,

:34:25.:34:31.

still dominate Scottish politics. It is incredibly difficult, because

:34:31.:34:38.

there is a consensus in Scottish politics. Difficult to get a

:34:38.:34:41.

hearing for arguments about free- market saw education or health

:34:41.:34:47.

reform of the kind that has been engaged in in England. Scotland is

:34:47.:34:52.

substantially to the left, and the Tories have not made progress.

:34:52.:34:58.

it is not just a setback, it could be extinction? I wonder. It is

:34:58.:35:03.

fascinating hearing that interview, because the two of you know about

:35:03.:35:07.

this, but you are reminded that politically, Scotland is so

:35:07.:35:12.

different from England. It is extraordinary. But at some point,

:35:12.:35:18.

the space will surely emerge for a party of the centre right. You

:35:18.:35:22.

can't have a political debate where in effect, the three parties are

:35:22.:35:30.

all on the centre-left. But people have been saying that for ten years,

:35:31.:35:36.

and it has not happened. A large number of people who are natural

:35:36.:35:42.

Tory voters all would be if they lived in the home counties, they

:35:42.:35:48.

voted for Blair. They have now been snaffled by Alex Salmond. The

:35:48.:35:51.

Liberal Democrats are extinct in Scottish politics. The Tories are

:35:51.:35:57.

in trouble. It is a two party fight between Alex Salmond and a Labour

:35:57.:36:01.

Party in trouble. There is little space for the Tories to get a

:36:01.:36:05.

hearing. We shall see. This time next week, we will know

:36:05.:36:09.

the result of the Bradford West by- election, caused by the resignation

:36:09.:36:15.

due to ill health of Labour's Marsha Singh. He is in the running,

:36:15.:36:20.

and what are the candidates talking about?

:36:20.:36:25.

Bill Bryson once said bad for's role in life is to make every other

:36:25.:36:28.

place in the world look better. -- Bradford's role is to make other

:36:28.:36:34.

places look better. But not so fast, it is also carry capital of the UK,

:36:34.:36:40.

home to one of Britain's largest Asian populations and the home town

:36:40.:36:46.

of a member of chart-topping group one direction. Bradford's economy

:36:46.:36:49.

is in serious trouble. Council job cuts and closures to local

:36:49.:36:53.

businesses have meant the amount of people claiming jobseeker's

:36:53.:36:57.

allowance in this constituency has gone up by almost a third over the

:36:57.:37:02.

past year. Youth unemployment has gone up by 40%. Labour has a

:37:02.:37:06.

majority of just under 6000 in Bradford West, but this was a key

:37:06.:37:10.

target seats for the Tories in the last general election. It is the

:37:10.:37:14.

kind of urban, ethnically diverse area they say they need to do

:37:14.:37:18.

better in. We have just had a wonderful Budget for growth and

:37:18.:37:24.

business. I will visit as many of the employers in this area as I can

:37:24.:37:28.

to tell them about the initiatives we have to get young people into

:37:28.:37:33.

work, particularly the work experience and the financial

:37:33.:37:37.

incentives that will help them to take on a young person between 18

:37:37.:37:42.

and 24. With rising unemployment, the Lib Dems may be facing the

:37:42.:37:46.

consequences of going into government with the Tories. But

:37:46.:37:52.

their candidate denies it. This is not a referendum on the coalition.

:37:52.:37:58.

That comes in 2015, when everybody will get a say. This is about who

:37:58.:38:02.

will be the best person to stand up for Bradford West. I have a record

:38:02.:38:07.

of bringing money to the city and getting ministers here to see what

:38:07.:38:11.

is happening. The UK Independence Party came second in the Barnsley

:38:11.:38:16.

by-election last year. They hoped to perform well here as well.

:38:16.:38:21.

want to get third place and beat the Lib Dems. And I think I can. I

:38:21.:38:27.

am a local person. I have been in the area for over 50 years. I have

:38:27.:38:32.

worked for the young and old, the vulnerable. I am aware of the

:38:32.:38:35.

situations here and I would like to fight for Bradford West in

:38:35.:38:40.

Westminster. But one man has come along to mix things up a bit. I

:38:40.:38:44.

have come to a hustings at the University of Bradford. There are

:38:44.:38:49.

two empty chairs on the stage. The Labour and Conservative candidates

:38:49.:38:56.

did not want to take part. So welcome to the George Galloway show.

:38:56.:39:00.

Parliament needs someone to represent the people who are

:39:00.:39:04.

currently not represented there. All three of the main parties

:39:04.:39:07.

support the war in Afghanistan, but most people in Britain don't. But

:39:07.:39:12.

nobody is speaking up for them. you have promised your constituents

:39:12.:39:16.

that if you win, you will be in Parliament and not of making

:39:16.:39:21.

reality TV when you should be serving constituents? I was never

:39:21.:39:23.

on a reality programme when I should have been serving

:39:23.:39:28.

constituents. I served my constituents faithfully. That was

:39:28.:39:33.

why I was elected five times to Parliament. It is not easy. You

:39:33.:39:39.

should try it. Five parliamentary victories in three different

:39:39.:39:45.

constituencies. Next Thursday, we might see another one. The Green

:39:45.:39:50.

Party are also standing in Bradford West. We won't -- we are the only

:39:50.:39:54.

party with a renewed deal and a plan to create thousands of new

:39:54.:39:59.

jobs in areas such as green energy and also to create a new raft of 18

:39:59.:40:02.

to 25-year-old entrepreneur's by freeing up money to get new

:40:02.:40:07.

businesses off the ground. Labour candidate, Imran Hussain, is

:40:07.:40:12.

deputy leader of the local council. He invited me for lunch with Andy

:40:12.:40:16.

Burnham. I was hoping for one of those famous Currys, but he

:40:16.:40:20.

insisted on a pizza, coincidentally at the birthplace of the

:40:20.:40:22.

Independent Labour Party. I asked him if he was running scared from

:40:22.:40:29.

George Galloway. No. I refused to share a platform. But I have said

:40:29.:40:34.

this is a very short campaign. I will be out there, knocking on

:40:34.:40:42.

doors, listening to people in these difficult times. That is the way I

:40:42.:40:46.

want to go into this campaign. Unless there is a Lazarus-like

:40:46.:40:50.

comeback from George Galloway, Labour would use a win in Bradford

:40:50.:40:58.

West to show that they are picking up momentum, and hope it is true.

:40:58.:41:01.

Be there are eight candidates standing in the Bradford West by-

:41:01.:41:11.
:41:11.:41:14.

Now, we are joined from Leeds by the BBC's political editor from

:41:14.:41:19.

Yorkshire. What have been the highlights of the campaign? One of

:41:19.:41:23.

the things has been George Galloway barnstorming at that meeting that I

:41:23.:41:29.

was present at at the student Unite union. But while he is making an

:41:29.:41:33.

impression that, where it was packed with Respect supporters, he

:41:33.:41:37.

is not making much impression on the streets. This has been a Labour

:41:37.:41:46.

seat since the '70s. There have never been large majorities. There

:41:46.:41:50.

is a 6000 legacy from the previous popular Labour MP. It was a

:41:50.:41:54.

marginal back in the general election. The Conservatives poured

:41:54.:42:00.

lots of resources into it. The result was that the 3500 Labour

:42:00.:42:03.

majority before the general election became 6000 after the

:42:03.:42:11.

general election. Any sense yet on how the Budget in general and the

:42:11.:42:16.

so-called granny tax are playing on the streets? In 30 years of

:42:16.:42:20.

covering politics, I have never been to a by-election where Ray

:42:20.:42:24.

Budget was slap-bang in the middle of it. David Cameron came yesterday

:42:24.:42:30.

bearing gifts. In the Budget, there were a small number of cities that

:42:30.:42:33.

were told they could have extra money to have super-fast broadband.

:42:33.:42:38.

One of those was Bradford, funnily enough. He mentioned all sorts of

:42:38.:42:43.

things. Today we had Ed Miliband in the constituency. Surprise,

:42:43.:42:48.

surprise, he went for it cup of tea with a couple of pensioners. So the

:42:48.:42:54.

Budget is high on the agenda. We are told Nick Clegg will not be

:42:54.:42:58.

campaigning. We expect the deputy leader of that party to be a long

:42:58.:43:04.

next week. It would be a major upset, particularly with Labour in

:43:04.:43:11.

opposition now, if Labour was to lose this by-election. We never

:43:11.:43:17.

know for sure, but is there any prospect of that? By-elections do

:43:17.:43:23.

throw up surprises, but I would be very surprised if Labour does not

:43:23.:43:28.

at least keep the majority it has. We are not seeing any surprises.

:43:28.:43:34.

The only scenario would be if that George Galloway vote managed to

:43:34.:43:39.

nibble away. Can the Conservatives then gallop up on the outside? They

:43:39.:43:44.

were second last time, the Lib Dems a distant third. 6000 is

:43:44.:43:54.

comfortable, but not overwhelming. The issue of dangerous dog was put

:43:54.:43:57.

back in the public eye yesterday after a vicious attack in east

:43:57.:44:02.

London injured five police officers, four seriously. Two of those

:44:02.:44:07.

officers are still in hospital. One is reported to need a skin graft.

:44:07.:44:12.

Specialist firearms officers were called in to shoot what has been

:44:12.:44:17.

described as a pit-bull-type dog. The Government has already

:44:17.:44:22.

committed itself to tackling the issue, promising an announcement on

:44:22.:44:26.

measures before the end of the month. What needs to be done. Chris

:44:26.:44:30.

Mason is on College Green with a Lib-Dem MP and a representative of

:44:30.:44:40.

the postal workers' union, the CWU. Yes, there is a chequered history

:44:40.:44:44.

when it comes to politicians and dangerous dogs. The legislation at

:44:44.:44:49.

the moment, the Dangerous Dogs Act, dates back to 1991. There is a

:44:49.:44:55.

sense that it is out of date. But many criticise that legislation for

:44:55.:45:02.

being rushed to through a and a response to a media campaign in the

:45:02.:45:06.

early '90s. It is a tricky one for the Government to grapple with in

:45:06.:45:13.

terms of which up -- department is responsible. DEFRA, the Environment,

:45:13.:45:16.

food and rural affairs department, calls the shots on this, which

:45:16.:45:20.

seems odd. That may be why it takes a while to get to the bottom of

:45:20.:45:23.

this and dream up a new idea. Let's chat with my two guests, the Lib

:45:24.:45:28.

Dem MP Tom Brake and Dave Joyce from the Communication Workers'

:45:28.:45:38.
:45:38.:45:39.

Union. Dave, how bigger problem is Dangerous Dogs is a big problem. We

:45:39.:45:43.

have been campaigning since 2008. We believe the coalition have had

:45:43.:45:46.

plenty of time to do something and we want them to take action

:45:46.:45:51.

urgently. 11 people have been killed by dogs in the UK in the

:45:51.:45:55.

last five years, 23 postal workers have been attacked and injured by

:45:55.:46:00.

dogs in the last four years and we want action now. Do you

:46:00.:46:05.

specifically need new laws? We do. Since our campaign started, the

:46:05.:46:10.

Scottish government agreed with us to change the law and have done so,

:46:10.:46:13.

the Northern Ireland government have done the same, as has the

:46:13.:46:17.

Welsh government. We now want Westminster to change the law. You

:46:17.:46:21.

can get rid of at least eight or nine pieces of useless legislation

:46:21.:46:27.

and get -- introduce one new-build. There's a suggestion that the

:46:27.:46:29.

Government will conform with a package of measures that is short

:46:30.:46:35.

of new legislation. How important his new legislation? What we need

:46:35.:46:38.

to address is the Dangerous Dogs Act, the fact it doesn't apply on

:46:38.:46:43.

private land, for instance. Communication workers have the

:46:43.:46:47.

biggest problem there. We also need to look at the breeds affected. I

:46:47.:46:51.

had a tragic case in my constituency of a woman who died as

:46:51.:46:55.

a result of an attack by a Belgian mastiff, not one of the breeds

:46:55.:46:59.

covered by the Dangerous Dogs Act. Would you be letting down people

:46:59.:47:04.

like Dave and others if there is no specific new legislation? Can't be

:47:04.:47:09.

done without it? We have to look at a range of measures on the table.

:47:09.:47:13.

Microchipping could play a role. We could also look to earlier

:47:13.:47:17.

intervention. One of the big problems with dogs, and this was

:47:17.:47:21.

the case in my constituency, is people are worried about a dog, but

:47:21.:47:26.

until it does something no action can be taken. Thank you both. A

:47:26.:47:31.

very heated issue and plenty of discussion to come. There's a

:47:31.:47:35.

patchwork of different laws around the UK related to this, but

:47:35.:47:38.

specifically for England, we are expecting something from the

:47:38.:47:42.

Government within a couple of weeks, but whether it stacks up to new

:47:42.:47:48.

laws, we don't yet know. Thank you. Beautiful weather out

:47:48.:47:51.

there in Westminster! Spring has sprung.

:47:51.:47:53.

So it's been a busy old week. Stella McCartney launched her

:47:53.:47:56.

Olympic uniform range. And very nice it is, too. The weather's been

:47:57.:47:59.

absolutely lovely and there's been a heck of a lot happening at

:48:00.:48:09.
:48:10.:48:11.

Westminster. Here's Max with his 60 The Chancellor set out his economic

:48:11.:48:18.

vision for the nation this week. It is goodbye 50p, hello granny tax.

:48:18.:48:22.

Government's controversial proposals to reform the NHS in

:48:22.:48:26.

England cleared their final parliamentary hurdle this week. The

:48:26.:48:30.

bruised and battered Health and Social Care Bill finally got the

:48:30.:48:36.

thumbs-up from MPs on Tuesday night. Her Majesty visited Parliament this

:48:36.:48:41.

week, marking 60 years on the frame. A speech to both Houses of

:48:41.:48:45.

Parliament was attended by a kaleidoscope of the great and good.

:48:45.:48:51.

Are we about to see roads plc? In a speech on infrastructure, the prime

:48:51.:48:56.

minister said there was an urgent need to repair England's roads. He

:48:56.:49:00.

suggested private investors might stump up the cash. And after 11

:49:00.:49:05.

years as a peer of the realm, Michael Heseltine graced the House

:49:05.:49:15.
:49:15.:49:21.

Making his maiden speech, I thought he had been a lot for ages! I

:49:21.:49:28.

wanted to ask you about the health bill. It has been a terrible

:49:28.:49:31.

experience for the coalition. I think some wish they had never

:49:31.:49:36.

started in the first place. But it is going into law. I wondered

:49:36.:49:40.

whether Labour might, by saying this is privatisation, this is the

:49:40.:49:44.

end of the health service as we know it, fire and brimstone, Sodom

:49:44.:49:49.

and Gomorrah, if in three years' time not much has changed, they

:49:49.:49:52.

will have overplayed their hand. think a lot will have changed.

:49:52.:49:58.

the worse? Yes, I do. This isn't the end of this story as a

:49:58.:50:03.

political problem for the coalition. I think the Lib Dems will be in

:50:03.:50:07.

real trouble in some of their seats because of their support for this,

:50:07.:50:13.

albeit they claim they made it better. For legislative passage has

:50:13.:50:17.

been extraordinary. We now have this weird Bill where all of the

:50:17.:50:20.

amendments contradicted the original intentions of the bill. In

:50:20.:50:24.

that sense it reminds me of the poll tax, where you had a very

:50:24.:50:29.

simple piece of legislation, which was entirely contradicted by all of

:50:29.:50:32.

the legislative amendments. All of the rebates... It countered what

:50:32.:50:36.

the whole thing was meant to be about. They got it through, let's

:50:36.:50:40.

got on with it, and it became a mess. I think it will be a mess on

:50:40.:50:44.

the ground. Even if it is not directly responsible for some of

:50:44.:50:49.

the things that will go wrong, it will create news stories and it

:50:49.:50:53.

will be blamed. This is not the end of this story. If that is the case,

:50:53.:50:56.

it is a running sore for the Government. Her absolutely.

:50:56.:51:01.

Everything that goes wrong in the NHS, even if it had nothing to do

:51:01.:51:06.

with this Bill, will be blamed on it. How many people, after this

:51:06.:51:12.

extraordinary process, can actually explain what the Bill does? It is

:51:12.:51:16.

one of the most extraordinary failings of political management

:51:16.:51:19.

and communication I can remember. It will have implications for the

:51:19.:51:23.

workings of the coalition. David Cameron is conscious that not

:51:23.:51:27.

enough attention was paid to it, it was supposed to be bomb proved by

:51:27.:51:31.

Oliver Letwin and it turned into a complete shambles. You will see

:51:31.:51:37.

more power as a result drawn to the centre as Cameron will be looking

:51:37.:51:43.

to avoid any repeat in other areas. If Oliver Letwin is trying to sell

:51:43.:51:49.

you an air raid shelter, don't buy Now, to the burning question of the

:51:49.:51:53.

week - do we live in a kaleidoscope world? And what makes the UK a

:51:53.:51:58.

kaleidoscope country? Yes, it was all in the Speaker's address to the

:51:58.:52:02.

Queen on Tuesday. We sent Adam out to see if he could make sense of it

:52:02.:52:12.
:52:12.:52:12.

Up it is the mystery gripping Westminster. Why did this because

:52:12.:52:16.

say this before Her Majesty addressed parliament this week?

:52:16.:52:22.

have become, to many of us, a kaleidoscope Queen of a

:52:22.:52:26.

kaleidoscope country in a kaleidoscope Commonwealth.

:52:26.:52:30.

obviously went down well with the prime minister, who then reference

:52:30.:52:40.
:52:40.:52:42.

it at PMQs. This is a kaleidoscope Budget. But it split public opinion.

:52:42.:52:47.

Kaleidoscope is many colours, different shapes. The Queen over

:52:47.:52:52.

the years has had to adapt to many changes. People know what a

:52:52.:52:55.

kaleidoscope is and they know who the Queen is. But the two don't

:52:55.:53:00.

relate to each other. I'm not sure what kaleidoscope Queen means, it

:53:00.:53:04.

doesn't sound very polite to Her Majesty. Although one theory has

:53:04.:53:10.

emerged. It turns up the Speaker is honorary President of an

:53:10.:53:12.

international gay rights charity called the kaleidoscope Trust. So

:53:12.:53:16.

was this just a big plug? Speaker is more than capable of

:53:16.:53:20.

writing his own speeches and he did on this occasion. His choice of

:53:20.:53:25.

language is up to him. At the kaleidoscope Trust, we chose the

:53:25.:53:28.

word kaleidoscope because it does represent a bringing together of

:53:28.:53:32.

the sort of diverse nature of Britain and what we would hope

:53:32.:53:35.

would be the diverse nature of the world. A spokesman for Mr Bercow

:53:35.:53:39.

told us that when he was building his kaleidoscope, he just meant it

:53:39.:53:45.

as an image, and metaphor. But Mr Speaker has discovered that even a

:53:45.:53:50.

speech created with the precision of as whips wash maker, if

:53:50.:53:55.

delivered to an audience more cynical than anything, in front of

:53:55.:54:02.

the monarch, can end up like Marmite. Loved and loathed.

:54:02.:54:12.
:54:12.:54:17.

There we go. Kaleidoscope is derived from three Greek words. An

:54:17.:54:21.

observer of beautiful forms. Who said public service broadcasting

:54:21.:54:26.

was dead?! Some people thought the speech was all right. Is it just

:54:26.:54:30.

the cynical Westminster village that likes to have a go? It was a

:54:30.:54:35.

speech that divided opinion. think that's pretty safe to say!

:54:35.:54:38.

Whether a speech should be dividing opinion... It was fine as a

:54:39.:54:44.

metaphor. What was more interesting, I'm told David Cameron is also

:54:44.:54:48.

livid that John Bercow gave a special emergency debate on the NHS

:54:48.:54:56.

bill the day before. But I think it was a lot of David Cameron to shows

:54:56.:54:59.

such disdain in public at Prime Minister's Questions. Other leaders

:54:59.:55:03.

have been really... There's no love lost between them. It is now the

:55:03.:55:10.

Republic. We would have made more of that if it is not receded the

:55:10.:55:15.

Budget. A public put-down. But from what I have seen of the criticism,

:55:15.:55:19.

the main complaint, other than having fun at the word kaleidoscope,

:55:19.:55:23.

which of course Tony Blair used immediately after 9/11 at the

:55:23.:55:28.

Labour Party Conference... It just seemed the Speaker was

:55:29.:55:33.

grandstanding in front of the Queen and it wasn't his day, it was the

:55:34.:55:40.

Queen's Day. Exactly right. That was a much bigger problem than the

:55:40.:55:45.

word kaleidoscope. All he had to do on this extraordinary day, the sun

:55:45.:55:49.

was shining, Westminster Hall was looking extraordinary, or he had to

:55:49.:55:53.

do was to stand up and say lords, ladies and gentlemen, I give you

:55:53.:56:02.

the Queen. And sit down. They were there to hear her rather than

:56:02.:56:07.

listen to him. I thought it was somewhat ill judged. Except that on

:56:07.:56:10.

the hall on these occasions, would you get preceding the big event is

:56:10.:56:17.

just a few banalities. I think he is an interesting Speaker. He has

:56:17.:56:22.

done a lot to make the House of Commons relevant. He has certainly

:56:22.:56:26.

allowed MPs to get their debates and he sided with Parliament

:56:26.:56:32.

against the executive. His equivalent in the House of Lords,

:56:32.:56:34.

she made a very distinguished speech, she had some strong points

:56:34.:56:41.

in it, she didn't grandstand. Did she make some strong point? His

:56:41.:56:45.

image of the kaleidoscope, whether you like it or not, has been

:56:45.:56:49.

remembered. She talked about the diversity of the Commonwealth and

:56:49.:56:54.

how the Queen to the Commonwealth duties seriously and had presided

:56:54.:56:58.

over the changing country. Fair enough. I think the irritation from

:56:58.:57:04.

David Cameron was partly that, but partly the other issues about

:57:04.:57:07.

granting too many debates, which the Government finds awkward.

:57:07.:57:14.

and Labour have been nip and tuck in the polls for a while. A poll in

:57:14.:57:17.

the Sun shows Labour way ahead after the Budget. A sign of things

:57:17.:57:22.

to come? I think it is. It is only one poll. This weekend will be

:57:22.:57:28.

interesting. Sunday polls will be really interesting. Don't you to

:57:28.:57:33.

forget. There's just time before we go to

:57:33.:57:36.

find out the answer to our quiz. The question was - which of these

:57:36.:57:39.

won't cost any more as a result of the chancellor's Budget?

:57:39.:57:41.

Supermarket rotisserie chicken, hairdressers' chairs, Jaffa cakes,

:57:41.:57:48.

or hot Cornish pasties. What is the answer? Blue nun? It is not on the

:57:48.:57:57.

list. That will surely get a special rebate. Is it Jaffa cakes?

:57:57.:58:02.

You are right. They are not cooked on the premises. Things like

:58:02.:58:05.

Cornish pasty is are cooked on the premises and they will have more

:58:05.:58:13.

VAT. Cornish pasty is a heated. The things that are heated. They are

:58:13.:58:20.

cakes as well, not biscuits. Right. Cakes are not liable. I have no

:58:20.:58:27.

idea. There's no VAT on cake. there not? The BBC's cake expert

:58:27.:58:35.

has just informed me of that. She now says let them eat cake as well.

:58:35.:58:39.

It is clearly easy, who said that government was micro-manage inquest

:58:39.:58:42.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'Clock News is

:58:42.:58:46.

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