Browse content similar to 16/04/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. So MPs return from | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
their Easter break after all of the chocolate, and it when the gloves | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
off as they get down to fighting a whole host of elections. David | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
Cameron was out on the stump with his candidate for London mayor this | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
morning, and he will be launching his party's campaign for the local | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
elections in England later today. We will be talking to party | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
chairman Sayeeda Warsi. We return to Bradford West, the scene of | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
George Galloway's triumph last month. He returns to Parliament as | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
an MP today. We will be talking to the man himself. And should | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
politicians published their tax returns? We sent Adam out with | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
balls in hand. They should, everyone else has to, we all pay | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
taxes. But we do not publish our tax returns. But we do not hide | :01:30. | :01:39. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the first half-hour today | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
his former Paralympian Tanni Grey- Thompson, who now sits in the House | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
of Lords as a crossbench peer. Welcome to the programme. Let's | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
start by talking about the Paralympics. We have had the lot of | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
things from viewers wondering whether you support the company | :01:55. | :02:02. | |
which has people's -- which tests people's ability to work sponsoring | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
the Paralympics. It is a decision that is way above anything I am | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
involved in. They take a great deal of care with the companies they | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
allowed to sponsor the brand. However, I have had hundreds of e- | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
mails from disabled people saying they are concerned about the | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
process they go through. Summer that is set in regulations, some of | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
it is the DWP, and there is a case to say that the process must be | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
adequately scrutinised. A number of centres have not been accessible. | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
It is difficult for people to go through that. Isn't it a bit ironic | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
to have that same company, bearing in mind there are lot of disabled | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
people are unhappy about those tests, that the same company is | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
also sponsoring the Paralympics? think it is part of what happens in | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
business. You could pick out any of the sponsors and say, you know, | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
there could be issues with it. Sponsorship of the Paralympics is | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
entirely different to what happens with the assessment process. For me, | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
I want to make sure that process is absolutely right to make sure the | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
right number of disabled people get benefits. We have had a response | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
from the company, which says they conduct assessments on behalf of | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
the DWP and has a professional dedicated team to conduct the work, | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
and they say that in an annual survey the team achieved a | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
satisfaction rating of about 90%. Are you surprised by that? You can | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
get statistics to say whatever you want. Out at two from people saying | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
that they are very happy with the process, but the number of e-mails | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
I have had suggests we need to look at it again to make sure it works. | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
What about disabled campaigners proposing a boycott? Paralympians | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
have spent too long training for it, it is too big a deal. The best | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
thing a Paralympian can do is win a gold medal and then you have a | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
different platform to speak from. It may have escaped your notice, | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
but elections are looming. On the 3rd May, local elections will take | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
place across Scotland and Wales, and in 128 local authorities in | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
England. Londoners will elect a mayor and members of the Greater | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
London Assembly. There are also mayoral elections in the Opel and | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
Salford. 10 cities will hold referendums on whether to have | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
directly-elected mayors. In Doncaster there will be a | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
referendum on whether to abolish the position of directly-elected | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
mayor. Joining the from the launch of their campaign is Conservative | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
Party chairman Sayeeda Warsi. Welcome to the programme. It has | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
been a pretty... Good afternoon. has been a pretty dire few weeks | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
for the government, whichever way you cut it, accusations of a budget | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
for the rich, do people on the doorstep think we are all in this | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
together? Well, look, this is not the best of circumstances or the | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
best backdrop against which we are fighting these local elections. | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
Indeed, for any party in government, local elections are always a | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
difficult time. And of course we also have this particular occasion, | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
seats that we are fighting which are what I would consider Devine | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
Labour heartland, because we fought these four years ago when Labour | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
were twentysomething in the polls and were fairly low in the polls. | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
But what we do have is good Conservative councils up and down | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
the country who have delivered in very difficult circumstances, and | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
the simple message at these elections is, do not allow Labour | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
to do to your local councils what they did to the country. Are you | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
expecting big gains? Well, the independent assessment has said | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
that the Labour Party should gain about 700 seats. So you will have | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
big losses to deal with? Of course, or those predictions, we will not | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
be having the best of nights. It will be a difficult night. But | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
having said that, I have been going up and down this country | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
campaigning alongside my councillors, and what I am hearing | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
is that local people are satisfied in the way in which Conservative | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
councils have been run, where they are preserving frontline services, | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
whereas what they find in Labour areas, where Labour councils are | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
being run, is that not only are they spending money on things which | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
are not considered a priority, but they are not taking advantage of | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
council tax freezes offered by the government. Back to the slogan that | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
has been with the Conservatives for the last few years, we are all in | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
this together, but in the words of David Davies, the tax on charitable | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
donations is an assault on the Big Society idea. You agree with him? | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
No, I think the argument that has been put, and let's remember that | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
his is out for consultation and was always intended to be out for | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
consultation. You have had a barrage of opposition. It is about | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
whether or not those people who earn a lot of money and quite | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
generously give that away to good causes, whether they should also be | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
paying income tax. What George Osborne and the Treasury found was | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
that a lot of these very generous people who give to great causes | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
actually give to them, make the choice of where their money should | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
be going, but actually do not pay much in terms of income tax. It | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
cannot be a fair society where those who are poor one middle | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
incomes do not get a choice of where their money goes because they | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
give to the generic welfare fund, known as paying your tax to the | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
government, but those who are better off can organise their | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
resources in a way where they get to choose where their money goes. | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
We have to strike the right balance between making sure that those who | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
give generously continued to be supported, but also pay their share | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
towards the generic good of the welfare state. So do you include | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
the Tory party treasurer in that? Stanley Fink, the treasurer, is a | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
fantastic guy, and I have known him for many years, hugely generous... | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
But he does not pay enough tax? course, he has quite rightly raised | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
concerns about whether or not the implications of this would be that | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
there may be a reduction in the amount of giving to good causes. | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
says there will be, that he will give less money. Stanley think, | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
along with many other people who give so generously, will be part of | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
the consultation, and I am confident they will be able to | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
strike the right balance between making sure that rich people | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
continue to give generously and support good causes and also make a | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
contribution to the general public purse. You yourself have been a | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
great advocate of listening to activists and listening to what the | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
grassroots are saying, rather than the voices of MPs and ministers. | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
Let's take the 50 pence rate of tax, grassroots Tories did not want that. | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
Sorry, I did not catch that, Jo. Grassroots Tories did not want the | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
50p tax rate remote. The decision that was taken by the Chancellor on | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
the reduction to 45p was a decision based on how much revenue was being | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
raised. Sure, but... Taxation is all about making sure that we get | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
the most Lee Camp of those that can afford to pay. But he didn't listen | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
to activists on that issue. clearly shows that at 50p you are | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
raising less than what you would raise at 45%, so activists of all | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
political parties would say it is better to get more from the rich | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
than less from the rich. Let's have a look at the post-budget U-turns | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
that have been reported in the papers. On the charity Relate tax, | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
you talk about the consultation, you think it will be draft for | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
change? As I had said, this was always intended to go out for | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
consultation, and it would be wrong for me to predict the wrong -- | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
outcome of the consultation. That would be a Labour consultation, | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
predicting the outcome before you have spoken to people. It will be a | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
proper government consultation. I would like to see a balance | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
struck... Because it is wrong? believe in people being allowed to | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
give generously to charities, it is something that I do, that many of | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
my friends and family do, but we also pay tax to the Government, and | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
I think it is important that we strike... You said it has got to | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
strike a balance, is the proposal as it stands now wrong at the | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
moment? The proposal is going to go out for consultation. It would be | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
wrong for me to predict the outcome of that, but it would be right for | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
me to ensure that all voices are heard during that consultation, | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
which is why I have been peaking -- speaking to philanthropists to make | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
sure that their voices are heard loudly when the consultation takes | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
place. What about the pasty tax? Should there be a U-turn? Well, | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
let's talk about what it is all about. Labour tried to make out | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
that it was some sort of major class war. Let me tell you from | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
somebody who was working class and Northern, it is not a class war, | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
because actually many people go out and buy a chip butty for their | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
lunch are as a snack, and that has 20% tax on it at the moment. It is | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
absolutely right and then that if you buy hot food, whether from the | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
fish-and-chip shop, the chicken shop or a pasty, it cannot be fair | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
that you buy -- a 20% tax on fish and chips, 20% on a chicken and | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
chips, but not on your plastic. no U-turn there, what about... | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
think it is a sensible measure. What about the conservatory tax, as | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
the Tory MPs are calling it? Well, look, Jo, this is an interview | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
about local elections. I can give you chapter and verse on every | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
single provision in the Budget. What I'm saying is that the | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
measures we are announcing in the Budget, they were measures that | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
were supposed to simplify the tax system, measures which are supposed | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
to be more fair, to make sure that those who can pay tax should pay | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
tax, to make sure there are no loopholes, as with the pasty tax, | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
make sure that we get the best possible that we can for the public | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
purse, so that we can spend it in the best interests of the nation. | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
But those measures have upset an awful lot of people, a lot of them | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
Tory MPs and voters who will be talking to about these things on | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
the doorsteps. The conservatory tax, will it be dropped? It is my job, | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
Jo, to make sure that the voice of actor bursts up and down this | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
country is heard by the Prime Minister and Cabinet colleagues. -- | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
activists. It is why I am on the road to make sure those voices are | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
brought back. But it is also my job to make sure that every decision | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
the Government makes is not a decision made in party interests | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
but in the national interests. It is why we formed a coalition, and | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
David Cameron is the leader of the Conservative Party, but I have | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
great respect for him that he does not analyse every single decision | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
that his government makes through the lens of what is right for the | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
Conservatives, but the lens of what is right for the country. That is | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
the kind of Prime Minister that I want to see. | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
Tanni Grey-Thompson, you have been listening to that, what you think | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
about the prospect of local elections? It all becomes extremely | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
partisan as they attacked each other on all fronts. What does that | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
do for voters? I think people are slightly bored of it all, to be | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
honest. I spend a lot of time talking to young people about what | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
they think of politics and sport, and when I have 17 year-olds saying, | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
we are sick to death of soundbites, that is a big wake-up call for | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
politicians. Politics at the moment is quite bland. You see people | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
spinning out the party line. As a crossbencher, I am in a privileged | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
position that I can say what I think, and it is up to me, no-one | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
is telling me what to say. We see too much of the party line. We are | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
going to see a lot more of it before these elections. Last month, | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
George Galloway confounded many people and won the Bradford West | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
by-election in spectacular style. It was considered a safe Labour | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
seat, but standing for Respect, he won with a 10,000 plus majority. He | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
now claims to be the Robin Hood of British politics and will be sworn | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
in as an MP in just over an hour's time, and we will be talking to him | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
in a moment, but there's Len Tingle takes a look at how his victory is | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
shaping the local elections and Bradford. | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
One week ago, this man would never have dreamt of standing as a | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
councillor, but now the political future of Bradford could be in his | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
hands. He is the candidate for Respect in Bradford's Little | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
Houghton Ward. This is a great opportunity, a real opportunity to | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
have a change and bring about change, and this is what is needed. | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
Lots of people who are first-time voters and have just got involved | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
in politicians. Previously, the 43- year-old youth worker had not even | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
been a member of a political party. The political weather which was | :14:37. | :14:45. | |
dark glance over Bradford for so many years has now been swept away. | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
-- clouds. At his victory rally, George Galloway promised that his | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
party would fly at Bradford with council candidates. In fact, just | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
12 are standing. But it could still cause major problems for this man, | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
Ian Greenwood, the Labour councillor defending his seat in | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
the area. He also happens to be the council leader, and Labour is just | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
one short of an outright majority. My own view is that you might local | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
elections on local issues. I was born and brought up there and have | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
represented the ward for 17 years. I understand the concerns that | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
people have, they are about in particular the fact that they are | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
suffering under government cutbacks, the fact that young people cannot | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
get a job, the fact that the regeneration of the district has | :15:34. | :15:44. | |
:15:44. | :15:46. | ||
The other parties insist it's not just a two-horse race. Does that | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
make it tougher for you? That's a by-election. Local election people | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
look at the person. People want to know their local issues. I think if | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
we offer a positive vision, and continue our positive campaign, I | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
hope the people will see that we are fighting for them and fighting | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
for Bradford. With three weeks to go before polling day, this ward is | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
likely to be a major focus of attention. | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
Joining me now is the new MP for Bradford West George Galloway who | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
will be sworn into Parliament in just over an hour's time. Welcome | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
to the programme. Thank you. These local elections will be the first | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
test of the Bradford spring, are you worried it might Peter out | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
after the euphoria of the by- election, that it won't translate | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
in the local elections? We had a thank you party yesterday. We | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
catered for 250 people, but 1100 people turned up. That might have | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
been because the curry was good, but it's also an indication that | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
the wind is still in our sales. We'll see. What are your | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
expectations then? We have deliberately targeted 12 seats with | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
a view to holding the balance of power and we're campaigning for a | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
Yes vote in the referendum so we can get a directly elected mayor | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
come November, which we will -- think will be a breakthrough for | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
the people in Bradford. Why is Respect not fielding candidates in | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
Birmingham which was a strong hold for the party? Yes our champion | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
there has been poorly. She would have led the campaign. She lost her | :17:22. | :17:29. | |
seat, didn't she? No, she stood down through ill health. She | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
narrowly avoided winning the Parliamentary seat twice and may | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
well stand again if there's a by- election when she's better. | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
party is not fielding candidates there? We're not fielding | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
candidates in Birmingham. We are in Bradford and other parts of the | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
north. This Bradford spring has started in the north. The sun has | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
risen in the north and we hope to fan out across the country. We're a | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
very small party with very few resources, less than �10,000 was | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
our annual income, Labour's was �9.2 million. We'll talk about | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
party funding later. Coming back to Bradford, it's starting there, in | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
your words, what are you going to do for Bradford? We heard there | :18:10. | :18:18. | |
that it should be about local issues, what issues would you | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
champion? The Odeon is falling down, there's a hole in the city centre | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
where the Westfield Shopping Centre was suppose to be. We're asking | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
what kind of council knocks down the centre without any guarantees. | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
What are you guaranteeing? Heads roll. Whoever signed a contract | :18:38. | :18:45. | |
without penalty clauses so that the they can be recompensated for the | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
failure. We have a campaign to bring public attention to the | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
chronic levels of unemployment. What is the level of youth | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
unemployment? It has tripled in a year and risen by 40% in 12 weeks. | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
What can you do in Parliament to change it? Speak about it. You're | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
going to be in Parliament regularly? Yes, I will be. I'll be | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
appearing on the media and the media seem to want me to appear, | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
including your good selves, so the first thing I've done is draw | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
attention to Bradford's problems. I will be responsible for projecting | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
solutions to those problems over the weeks and months ahead. Will | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
you focus on unemployment more in the coming months than things that | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
also appeal to you on the interNational stage? I don't think | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
it's either/or. One of the reasons I won such a majority was because | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
the other three parties have an iron clad consensus in support of | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
the war in Afghanistan. We said that the war in Afghanistan should | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
end right now and our soldiers brought back before more of them | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
come back in boxes. So, these are not issues that are easily accept | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
rabble, but neither would it be right to concentrate on one more | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
than the other. What do you make of the situation in Syria, should | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
Bashar al-Assad stand down? There should be a free election. That's | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
not really possible at the moment. The fighting isn't going on... | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
truce hasn't held that well. Kofi Annan thinks... Not only do I not | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
support Bashar al-Assad, I never did support Bashar al-Assad. I | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
support the Syrian people's demands for democratic change, just like I | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
do in Saudi Arabia. Now, you would never ask anybody here if they | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
supported democratic change in Saudi Arabia and you need to ask | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
yourselves why your researcher prepared that question rather than | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
say do I support democracy in Saudi Arabia, it's just a point. Only | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
because Syria is so much in the news. Saudi Arabia isn't in the | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
news, but ought to be. Syria is in the news, I know why and you know | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
why. Let's ask about Egypt then, who would you like to see win the | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
forth coming Egyptian presidential election? I'm not sure that the | :20:55. | :21:05. | |
:21:05. | :21:07. | ||
name will mean much but the best candidate is Dr Fatou. There have | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
been disqualifications in the last few days. I'm touched that you're | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
interested in on my views on that. You have talked widely about the | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
Middle East. I want to popular ise his name. Thanks for the | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
opportunity to do so. In erms it -- in terms of views expressed, how | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
important was moral or religious views in terms of your win in | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
Bradford? Moral views are important in politics. The morality of | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
killing people for profit. The morality of stealing from people in | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
the way that the economic system we have does. The morality of having | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
children in mass poverty whilst others frolic in riches. These are | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
important moral questions in politics. But the main reason, | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
frankly, that I got the land slide majority I did, is the wholesale | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
rejection of the three cheeks of the same backside that represent | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
the mainstream political parties. On one of the moral issues coming | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
up and has been talked about on gay marriage, have you decided how | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
you'll vote on that issue? Is it coming up, I don't know if it's | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
coming up? I have a long record of supporting equality for gay people. | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
Long before others in the mainstream parties did so. I'm | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
certainly not going to change that stand, because I believe in | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
equality. I believe we're all God's children. I believe that our | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
behaviour will be judged by God on the last day. And not by men on | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
this day. Tanni, listening to George, saying that the main reason | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
he won that election with a land slide, you could say, is because of | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
the rejection of the three main parties, do you agree with that? | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
Yeah I do. I think it's getting harder for people, it's fine when | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
you're deeply involved in politics like we are, most people feel it | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
doesn't touch their lives. It's getting harder for people to see | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
the differences between the parties. On tax returns, would you publish | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
your tax return? Do you think the politicians should? Everyone should, | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
yes. That's what happens in the United States. I think it's a good | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
practice. They're not obliged to by law, they just do. I think the | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
House should voluntarily do that. I register all my income in the | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
Parliamentary registry of interests, much more than I'm forced to do. | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
You wouldn't be concerned by scrutiny? Everyone knows what I | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
earn, which can't be said for all MPs. All right, George Galloway, | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
thank you. Now, reforming benefits for people | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
with disabilities is always difficult and emotive. This | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
Government's under fire because from next year, it intends to phase | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
out the Disability Living Allowance and replace it with the Personal | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
Independence Payment. Ministers say the change will make sure money | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
goes to those who really need it and it will save billions of pounds | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
over the next three years. Campaigners claim that not only | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
will it force thousands of disabled people out of work, but in a worst | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
case scenario, could end up costing more. Who's right? David Thompson | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
went to find out. The RNIB resource centre in London, | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
it's choc full of gadgets designed to help the blind and partially | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
sighted live as independent as possible. But as with most things | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
in this world, they cost. There is some Government assistance for | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
those most in need, the Disability Living Allowance for example. Help | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
with care costs goes from just under �20 to �73.60. There's a | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
mobility allowance worth as much as �51.40 a week. More than three | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
million people get DLA and that costs an estimated �12.6 billion a | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
year. That's a problem. The number of people claiming DLA has trebled | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
since it was introduced 20 years ago. It hasn't really been reformed | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
since then. There's a concern that because there isn't an independent | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
medical assessment at the moment, we're spending too much money on | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
the wrong people so there's less to go round for the people who really | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
need it. A little industry has sprung up of companies who will, | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
for a fee, help you work the tests, say the right things and get the | :25:02. | :25:09. | |
money. So from next year, the Government will introduce the | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
Personal Independence Payment, saving, they hope almost �3 billion | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
in the first three years. The new scheme will feature more rigorous | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
assessments and a stream lined scale of payments. Ministers say | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
that will allow money to be targeted at those would really need | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
it. Campaigners argue this is all about cutting costs. Either way, | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
will it work? The campaign group Disability Rights UK is considering | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
mounting a legal challenge because it believes that in the rush to | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
make savings, ministers haven't shown their workings. In a report | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
due to be sent to the Department of Work and Pensions later this month, | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
it claims that even based on the lowest estimates the Government | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
could end up saving almost �630 million less than expected. That's | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
because it believes ministers have failed to take into account the | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
impact made by things like the loss of tax revenues, increased benefit | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
payments and the cost of assessments. Worst case scenario - | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
the new scheme could actually increase the benefits bill by | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
hundreds of millions of pounds. We think the Government has acted | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
irresponsibly in not assessing properly the full costs to | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
Government and the impact on disabled people. We could see many | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
thousands of disabled people in work lose work. It would undermine | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
our objective if we didn't per sue all options available to us. We | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
believe there's a strong case for a legal challenge to the Government's | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
plans. Baked beans. Heartless and stupid ministers snatch benefits | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
from the needy in a kak handed attempt to save money, well, maybe | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
not. When you look at the fact that it's trebled since it was | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
introduced, they're only trying to get it back down to the levels that | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
it was at in about 2009, so really, actually, this is quite a | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
conservative estimate of how much they might save. Is it possible to | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
reboot a multibillion pound part of the benefit budget without knock-on | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
effects. We do support reform that improves benefits for disabled | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
people. But this is not a case of reform. This is a clear cut and | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
uncosted cut that could have massive implications in public | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
expenditure down the line. Tugging at the heart strings is often the | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
easy way to make a point, but in a time of austerity, it's the purse | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
strings which make or break the argument. | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
We're joined now by the minister for disabled people, Maria Miller. | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
Before we come to you, I'm going to come to you first, Tanni, we aerd | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
there that the numbers receiving DLA has risen by 30%, that's a very | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
large increase in the last eight years. Surely, there is a very | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
strong case for reform? There's a very strong case for reform. | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
Personally I want to see money go to the right people. But I think | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
once people are on DLA, we have to make sure in transition and when | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
they go to Personal Independence Payment, they don't lose out. I | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
want disabled people to be in work. DLA is an important part of helping | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
keep disabled people in work. does that money go towards? People | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
can spend it on whatever they choose to spend it on I think is | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
quite important. For me, I use it to pay for hand controls on my car. | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
I use it for the extra cost of getting around. Where I live in the | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
north-east public transport is not accessible at all. It's very | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
important that people can choose how to spend it. For an individual | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
it's not a huge amount of money, but for me, it's making a huge | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
difference to disable people's lives. It's about giving them an | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
opportunity to live, not just to survive. And you're being accused | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
of taking that opportunity away. Surely that's not what you want to | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
have numbers of disabled people going down in terms of those who | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
are going to work. What disabled people tell me is that they want to | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
be able to live a more independent life. That's driving all the | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
changes that we're making across Government, whether making more | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
money available for adapting people's houses or more money for | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
specialist employment support. can you do that making such large | :29:05. | :29:11. | |
cuts? Rereforming DLA to make sure the money goes to the right people. | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
At the moment we know �600 million is going in overpayments to people | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
who may no longer qualify for the level of support. Do you agree, do | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
you think that amount of money is going to people who don't need it | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
or deserve it? It's really hard. Some of the figures were arriving | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
late in the reform bill. One of the things we need to look at with the | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
impact assessment is making sure the figures are right. We have | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
access to the figures. At the moment, I can't, there are probably | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
a few people claiming DLA who shouldn't be, I don't know the | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
figures. The statistics were produced under the last | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
administration in 2005. How have they done them if they haven't done | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
tests until now on whether people need that living allowance? In 2005 | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
it was clear that �600 million was going out in overpayments and �190 | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
million going out in underpayments as it were, people not receiving | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
enough money. We have a real problem with the money not getting | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
to the people who need it most. I think the telling statistic is that | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
over 70% of people are receiving this benefit for life with no | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
reassessment, and that's no way to administer a benefit. That can't be | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
right. There will be some disabled people whose disabilities will be | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
there forever and others, do you accept, that the situation could | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
change, in that sense Maria Miller has a point. People have | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
fluctuating conditions. But it's making sure that the right people | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
are retested. There's a cost... are the right people, when you say | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
that, who are you talking about? Are you looking at list of people | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
claiming DLA, isn't everybody the right person to be tested? You can | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
put certain people in boxes and say your condition will never change. | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
I'm paralysed my condition will never get better only worse. | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
There's no point testing somebody like Tanni is there? For the | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
assessment we're work closely with organisations, disabled people to | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
ensure we have the right advice in place for testing people. Clearly | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
we won't retest people at the same intervals. But it is important to | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
make sure that people are getting the right support and if their | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
situation actually gets worse that they're getting support that they | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
need. You haven't brought people along with you, because disability | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
rights UK could launch a legal challenge. So these reforms have | :31:28. | :31:38. | |
:31:38. | :31:38. | ||
not convinced the lobby you are Reform is needed. I do not think | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
there is any debate... But they are contesting that your sons are not | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
correct, and that you can actually end up saving less than you expect. | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
Do you admits that? I do not know where they have got their figures | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
from on that. 70% of people at the moment are getting this benefit for | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
life, we have �600 million going out in overpayments, and at a time | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
when we have to make sure that every single pound is working hard | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
and supporting disabled people who needed, it is right that we have | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
assessment. Why is it from this particular lobby, that most people | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
would agree, even if some people are being overpaid, they need this | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
money? As this Clare said, it is not about making cuts to the amount | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
of money that we are spending at the moment. We are continuing to | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
spend the same amount. It is about making sure the money is going to | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
the right people, and at the moment we know that is not the case. | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
you convinced? No OBE, half a million people could lose out in | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
the transition. I would back the government to ensure they track the | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
disabled people who do not make the transition. We might save money by | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
cutting some people from the I P, but it could pass costs to other | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
areas. It could push people into greater need. The government has to | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
respond to the Joint Committee on Human Rights by the 1st May, and a | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
lot of people will be interested in that response to see what happens. | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
We spend �40 billion to support disabled people in a whole variety | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
of ways. DNA is only one part of that. We have seen significant | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
increases in other parts of the budget, and we have to look at the | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
package of measures in the round. Thank you both very much. MPs get | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
back to work this afternoon fresh from the Easter break to discuss | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
what they will be talking about, we enjoyed by Polly Toynbee of the | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
garden and Fraser Nelson of the Spectator. How would you | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
characterise the last few weeks post-Budget for the Conservatives? | :33:36. | :33:43. | |
She shambolic, chaotic, humiliating, the list goes on! But now we have | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
got David Cameron and George Osborne back in the country, they | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
are going to try to get a grip of this. We have seen that with the | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
Treasury fighting back over the charity tax, giving you a list of | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
the offenders who do not pay enough tax in their view. You can see them | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
trying to wrestle back control of the news agenda, and they are | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
hoping the media will turn its focus on to the Labour Party and | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
how badly they are going to do in the upcoming local elections. It is | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
a strange strategy, not what they are doing right, but what Labour is | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
doing wrong, and that is what they're going to try to encourage | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
us journalists to look at. And we may well be doing at as the | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
elections approach, but going back descending is said, the Treasury | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
put out figures showing the percentage of millionaires who pay | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
the basic rate of tax, why has it taken them so long? If they were | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
going to have a fight back, they should have done it a while ago. | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
Because they are not particularly well-organised. This is the hugely | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
embarrassing thing. It is not that bad policy but basic organisation | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
that they have not been capable of. Here we are, three weeks after the | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
Budget, and only now pollinating the arguments that they should have | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
been making before. If I were David Cameron, I would be asking what my | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
Chancellor is playing at, making these arguments now, not weeks ago. | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
Polly Toynbee, the other side of the coin, polls have shown, is that | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
people to support the idea of rich people pay more tax, but they do | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
not like the idea in terms of charitable donations. It is a | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
difficult one to play? I think it is. On this one, the government is | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
on the right track, but they have played it very badly indeed. I | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
think there is real indignation at discovering that very rich people | :35:23. | :35:32. | |
pay incredibly little tax. Some as little as 10%, San none at all. | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
Whether taking on charities was wise, I rather doubt, because there | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
are lots of things that the rich can do to close down first, tax | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
havens, moving money into private equity, building up lots of debt | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
and setting it off against your profits. I think they had gone for | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
that first, rather than charity, they would be in less trouble. But | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
they are right about charity, too. There is no reason... We hope the | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
rich continue to give to charity, but why should the state have to | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
subsidise that? They may be things that are not the state priorities. | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
If you look at what charities include, it includes a charity for | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
helping Japanese dogs. It includes anything that is on the Charity | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
Commission's lists. I cannot quite see why the taxpayer has to fund | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
whatever eccentric tastes billionaires might have. Well, | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
let's get to the issue, whether it is bad organisation, as you have | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
said, Fraser Nelson, or are they of the ball in policy terms? Looking | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
at the publishing of tax returns, for example, is that wise? How far | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
should you go? Should the disclosure go all the way down in | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
terms of politics, or just Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet? It is a bit of | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
a red herring, if you asked me. We know how much ministers get paid, | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
they have to tell Parliament, and it is no great surprise if a tax | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
return is the same. This is happening because the Government | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
wants to help Boris stick it to Ken Livingstone, his tax returns are a | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
source of embarrassment. That is what this is about. It is a big | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
question where you draw the line. You include spouses? They often | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
earn more because of their position and proximity to government. You | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
end up with the Swedish situation where everybody knows what | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
everybody else is earning? I have a feeling, after the mayoral election, | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
it is going to die out as an issue because they will have made the | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
point, which is that Ken Livingstone is a dirty tax Dodger. | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
On that claimed by Fraser Nelson, he would deny that, Polly Toynbee, | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
it could be quite difficult on the local elections for Ed Miliband, | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
particularly in London. Well, I think it is very difficult. I think | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
that Labour is very conflicted about a lot are the candidates that | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
they are putting up here and there, but what is important is that | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
Labour does really well in the local elections. I think that they | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
are very much underestimated in public, what they are actually | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
likely to achieve, and they need to achieve at least 50% more than the | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
numbers they are talking about now. They probably will. This is a | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
classic collection in tough times when the government of the day can | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
accept a thorough kicking, and I think Labour should expect to do | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
very well. A new poll out today looking at the Lib Dem chances | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
reckons that the next election, they are only due to win seven | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
seats. The Lib Dems will be very worried, too. Thank you very much. | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
With me for the rest of the programme are Conservative MP | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
Nicola Blackwood, Labour's Jonathan Reynolds, PPS to Ed Miliband, and | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
Liberal Democrat Julian Huppert. Welcome to all of you. Jonathan | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
Randles, picking up on what Polly Toynbee said, how many seats should | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
Labour be aiming for in these local elections? There are a lot less | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
seats at this year, so it is not something you can make a direct | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
comparison to, so 350 would be very good. It should be nearer 700. Four | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
years ago, when Labour was not doing particularly well, surely | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
they have got to be up to 700, or it will be seen as a failure. | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
other parties will put a figure on it, it is expectations management, | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
everybody is used to it. Four years ago, it was a difficult day for | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
Labour, but that does not automatically mean it will swing | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
back. We see a lot of volatility in the elective. We are putting a | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
sensible projection what we think we can gain, and it is about | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
rebuilding from what was a very disappointing general election | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
result. We heard from George Galloway talking about his outright | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
rejection of the three main parties, including the Conservatives. Is he | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
right? There is a lot of political disillusionment. People feel | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
politicians are not listening, and on the doorstep there is a feeling | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
of that, and I think you generally to get that in the middle of a term. | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
Especially when governments are having to make difficult decisions, | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
the decision we are having to make at the moment. But the solution, I | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
do not think, is specific policies for parties coming out and | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
attacking people. It is politicians getting out and campaigning at | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
talking to people and seeing that we are real people trying to | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
address their concerns. So you do not think it is policies, the post- | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
Budget policies like the charity tax relief, the pasty tax, the fuel | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
crisis, none of these things then much in terms of the way people | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
will vote? I think all of those things matter, but I do not think | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
that is the source of the political disillusionment. I think the source | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
of that is that people do not be engaged with politicians themselves. | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
We have got to get out more locally, face to face with voters, talking | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
to them, engaging with them on issues that matter at a local level. | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
It is also down to local activists, local councillors, local membership. | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
I think that there is a great feeling of disengagement and this | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
enfranchisement, and that is part of the problem. Isn't the point | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
that the activists are the ones who are disillusioned with the policies | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
that we have been talking about, and that is why you're not getting | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
local poll? I have more people out canvassing with me on every session | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
now than I had before the last election, even. So that is not | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
something that I am experiencing a my constituency. So I do not think | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
that is a problem that I am having, and I do not know if that is | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
something that other members are experiencing. None of them will say | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
they are having problems with that, but Polly Toynbee gave that | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
prediction that the Liberal Democrats would only have seven | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
seats out of the number they have currently got. Are you very fearful | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
of these local elections? They were terrible for you last year. Polly | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
has a record of putting a very spun position on that, and we have seen | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
all sorts of odd predictions. It was a spectacularly bad time for | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
Labour last time in these elections, just after Gordon Brown had doubled | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
the tax rate on low income earners, whereas we have lifted two million | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
people out of income tax. The idea is that they will do relatively | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
better, so you are going to suffer. They did spectacularly badly then. | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
On the doorstep I have been finding out that what matters is what | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
happens locally. We live in a bubble where we talk about the same | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
issues that we will discuss, but that is not what comes up on the | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
doorstep. People care about what is happening locally. In Cambridge, my | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
constituency, people like the fact that their councillors have been | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
helping them with issues, running a city that has low unemployment than | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
it had under Labour, the lowest of any city in the country. It is | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
local issues that matter. No Liberal Democrat council has | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
increased council tax. Where they have been well run, they will do | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
well. You cannot get away from the unpopularity of the coalition and | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
the budget, and I have never known a but it been so unpopular for so | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
long. I have quite staunch Conservative areas are my | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
constituent, and the disillusionment is palpable. There | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
is a lot of anger caused by the pasty tax and the granny tax and | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
the row over charitable giving. They do not even seem to think that | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
the government is there for them, and these are Conservative voters. | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
There is always some spillover of national politics, but as in | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
Bradford West, it spills over to every political party, not just the | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
party of government, which is why local issues are much more | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
important than they ever have been before. Should politicians reveal | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
or not? And talking about their tax returns. We send Adam to find out | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
what you think. We are here at HM Revenue and | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
Customs, the home of the taxman, and were going to get the public to | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
vote on whether politicians should publish tax returns, yes or no. | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
Should politicians published their tax returns? Why do say that? | :43:40. | :43:47. | |
idea! I think transparency is the best thing, really, because that | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
way the public will not have anything to say, we will not have | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
any reason to have any doubt in where we are putting our trust. | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
Thank you! Thanks very much. It is a personal thing, you pay your | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
taxes, don't you? Simple as that. Wouldn't it be good to have a bit | :44:05. | :44:11. | |
of evidence? Where is it going to stop, spouses, children? Some of | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
the politicians are pretty well the people, and I believe, may be | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
wrongly, that some of them are probably in the bracket where they | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
are not paying the full whack of tax that the rest of us are. Who'd | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
you think would have the most interesting tax return? George | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
Osborne. Do think it might put people off going into politics? | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
might put the wrong people off. dodgers! I will take one of your | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
papers, if you take one of my balls. Whoops! Do think politicians | :44:40. | :44:47. | |
should... They should, everyone else has to, we all pay taxes. | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
we do not publish them. We do not have to, because we do not hide | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
anything. Maybe they do not hide anything. Maybe they do! Would you | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
be happy to publish your tax return? It ain't a problem to me! | :45:00. | :45:08. | |
How much you pay quite -- how much you pay? Quite a lot! Call me back | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
later with the number! After an hour of intense ball action, you | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
can see the Yes camp is well in the lead, although when you ask people | :45:17. | :45:26. | |
about the details, they tend to get Yes and no, because why should they | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
pay, because it's supposed to be private. In the current way things | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
are going, it's needed for visibility and clarity. Should it | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
be all MPs, just the Cabinet or the top table of the Cabinet? | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
you're asking too many questions in the morning. Always more tricky | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
when you start to think about them. The public is a -- eligible to know | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
what they pay... Do you want to think about it and come back at | :45:55. | :46:02. | |
lunch time? Yes, would that be OK? Come back at lunch time. I wouldn't | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
want mine published, it's not anybody's business. Oh, yes. Grab a | :46:05. | :46:15. | |
ball. There you go, a resounding vote in favour of politicians | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
publishing their tax details. A lot of the people who said yes were | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
civil servants. I'm off to show this to the tax man. | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
How funny that there, he's outside the Treasury offices, they were | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
probably all civil serve abts. I've been joined by Nigel Farage, people | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
would like politicians to have tax rushes -- returns published. In the | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
spirit of transparency should they just do it? Transparency can be a | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
deceptive word. We applied it to the banking sector, look what good | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
it did us. The public are angry about the misuse of public money | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
through expenses, perfectly understandable. The public want to | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
know their politicians are having to live and abide by the same rules | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
they are. That's a perfectly reasonable thing that the public | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
should want. If you start to say that people in politics must | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
declare their tax return, there may be information on that return that | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
actual sli private, charitable donations perhaps would be a good | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
example. But I also think where does this finish? Why not bank | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
statements, why not your leaving School Report? Where do we go with | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
this. That's the point, where do you go with it? Would you like to | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
see politicians have their tax returns published? I wouldn't have | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
a problem with it. Where would you stop it? I'd want protections. You | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
wouldn't want spouses or partners doing that or medical records. | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
where does it stop? People will say actually we've seen your tax return, | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
it's not very interesting, for example, you know, your PAYE, I | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
want more. This is where it's come from, we have a privileged | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
administration, particularly the top rate of tax, people want to | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
know who is benefiting from this. Because they don't feel they are | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
benefiting from it. That's the motivation for this. The Government | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
hasn't become a hostage to fortune. By going down that route, the cash | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
for access then a link in people's minds people having access to top | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
politicians, then the top rate of tax being cut, now they want to see | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
everything. Yes, what we have to make clear that there are | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
privileged people in every party. I think the problem with publishing | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
tax returns is that what you risk is a real trivialisation of the | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
debate. People are going to pick out little bits and pieces of the | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
tax return and the debate will be about that. It won't be about the | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
simple issue - does the candidate pay their taxes, yes or no? Are | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
they a British taxpayer, yes or no? That's all you want to know. | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
but is it? If you get about details, you will go down the expenses route | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
of having trivial stories again and again in the tabloids which is not | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
what the debate should be about. That's not helping the political | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
debate. It's not talking about the important democratic issues which | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
we should be debating before elections. It's damaging the | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
discussion. I think people, most people, assume politicians pay | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
their taxes. What they want... all people are assuming that. | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
of them pay their taxes, what they want to see is the level of tax | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
they pay. What they want to see is whether politicians are not paying | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
as much tax as other people on similar salaries. You're on the | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
street asking this question, I put it to you there are more important | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
questions, what the public wants, more important than seeing MPs' tax | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
rurpbdz, they want to feel that there are people in Parliament in | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
touch and expressing their ideas on issues and not this disconnect and | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
they want to see more competence in Parliament. Isn't this row about | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
the budget one of competence? My argument is the more we have to | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
declare our private incomes, the less chance there is of | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
entrepreneurs come nooing politics and goodness me we could do with | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
some. Zou agree? There are questions if you make every | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
candidate publish their returns. What about yours? Mine is dull. It | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
says I earn money as an MP and pay taxes. There are wealthy people in | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
the Labour Party and other parties. There are people who have more | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
complex arrangements. The vast majority of MPs have fairly simple | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
arrangements of you know, getting a salary and paying tax on it. | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
the is -- is the Government considering this? It looks as if | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
they have danced around the idea, is it more of the I -- a political | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
weapon to attack opponents like Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone? | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
They're keen not to be seen to trying to hide anything. There is | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
quite a large concern surrounding the issues that have been revealed | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
with the Ken, Boris issue where it was very clear that Ken was | :50:53. | :51:00. | |
avoiding taxes... Totally legally of course, some would say being | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
efficient. You have to say, well, should we address the problems in | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
the tax system to deal with that. We should make it not possible to | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
avoid taxes in that way. Hang on, if you went down that route, you | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
would affect every single limited company in this country, please no. | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
Tax avoidance is legal. I mean has the Government got itself caught up | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
in language problems here, tax avoidance is legal, companies do it | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
to be efficient. People have ISAs to be tax efficient. If you go down | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
that route you will run into all sorts of problems. That's what the | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
Government is doing having a debate about what level of tax avoidance | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
are acceptable. What's acceptable tax avoidance? To go back to the | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
point, the point is that the Government are under pressure | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
because they've made the wrong decision cutting the rate of income | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
tax for the people at the top. They feel they have to compensate for | :51:53. | :52:03. | |
that. Is any tax avoidance acceptable? There's a difference | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
between tax efficiencies and avoiding rules on taxation. This is | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
one of the reasons for a general an tai bues rule which we have pushed | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
for for a while, if you do something simply to avoid paying | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
taxes, you should look carefully at it. ISAs are legitimate and a | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
sensible thing. We can't allow the abuse to happen to continue about | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
Ken or nb else. Stay here all of you, often discuss and so far never | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
solved talks on how political parties are funded started up again | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
laflt week. It came onto the spotlight before the Easter break | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
as cash for access became as a political headache for the Prime | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
Minister. There's no limit on individual donations but a gift | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
over �7500 has to be declared. Sir Christopher Kelly clird a -- | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
chaired a report last year calling for a �10,000 cap on individual | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
donations, and a union opt-in. Ed Miliband called for a �5,000 cap on | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
individual donations but no change to the system, where members of | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
unions have to opt-out of a �3 a year to the Labour Partyment | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
Reacting for the Conservatives, Grant Shapps told the Sunday | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
Politics that his proposal was virtually meaningless and would | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
lead to a 1% cut in funding for Labour. The Tories are looking for | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
a more generous limit, talking about a �50,000 cap on individual | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
gifts. Nick Clegg highlighted Lib Dem support for key parts of Sir | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
Christopher Kelly's report including the individual donation | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
cap but warned increased taxpayer funding of parties was unlikely to | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
receive much support from the public. We have had this proposal | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
from Ed Miliband, how should the coalition respond, a �5,000 cap on | :53:47. | :53:56. | |
donations? I'm afraid it does come across as party political postuerg | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
because a chunk of the funding is excluded from the proposal. They | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
would still lose a significant amount of the funding particularly | :54:04. | :54:09. | |
in an election year. Yes, they would. But when we're talking about | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
party funding, which is a huge source of concern for the public | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
and lack of public trust, you need to put everything on the table in | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
these discussions. Everything has been on the table. No, it's not. | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
They have said they would put a �5,000 cap on donations except for | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
those coming from unions. Affiliations. But affiliation fees | :54:31. | :54:37. | |
and membership fees. Which is a big part of Labour funding. And so, it | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
just undermines trust in the negotiations. It gives the | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
impression that Labour are not genuinely wanting to come to the | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
table. It just does not give the public the sense that Labour Party | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
are wanting to come to the table and have a proper discussion and | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
debate about it. Having said that... If Labour did do that, if they went | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
for the opt-in for the affiliation fees to the Labour Party would you | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
consider the �5,000 cap on donations, do you think the | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
Conservatives should consider it? It would certainly give the | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
impression that Labour are genuinely wanting to come to the | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
table and have a proper debate it it -- about it. There's more on the | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
table here than Ed Miliband said than ever before. It deserves a | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
slightly better response than what the coalition parties have given it | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
so far. The money scandals in politics tarnish all of politics. | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
They diminish the job we do. We have to take big money out of | :55:32. | :55:40. | |
politics. You need a substantial cap. A �50,000 cap is not enough. | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
We are putting more on the table before. It deserves a serious | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
response. What about the cap, would you agree? Yes around �5,000, | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
�10,000 feels like the right number. I was quite encouraged that Ed | :55:54. | :56:00. | |
Miliband have said this. We've got significantly more donations than | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
the Labour Party in terms of individual donations. I'm pleased | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
Ed is starting to talk about. It I'd like to see a change to the | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
union system. It is not right that people are, have to take an active | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
step to avoid giving the Labour Party money. There are people in | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
unions who don't want to do it, but don't take that step. People who | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
support other parties who do not want to give the money. This is | :56:24. | :56:30. | |
democratic money. Let people opt in if they want to and if they wish to | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
give each year to the Labour Party that's fine and they can do that. | :56:33. | :56:40. | |
They do unite. If you join Unite, or Unison you have a choice between | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
giving to the Labour-affiliated fund. It's not a case of saying | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
right I've joined this union... It's a confrontational thing to | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
join a union but say I don't want to support the party of choice. You | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
shouldn't put workers in that position. Are you optimistic for | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
consensus on this? Let's be clear here, we're talking about the cap. | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
You say let's take big money out of politics, big private money out of | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
politics and replace it with taxpayer funded money. No-one's | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
talked about state funding yet. Capped union fees gets negotiated, | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
simultaneously with the state funding of politics in this country. | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
It now appears that the three party leaders have accepted that in | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
principle and I am very worried about that. No they haven't. | :57:26. | :57:35. | |
don't think they have. You could fill the gap... One at a time. OK... | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
The limit of �90 million can be reduced. Why do we need big | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
billboards at general election time. You could cut down on some of the | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
parts of political spending. You don't need it and that could fill | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
the gap if donations didn't increase. But that's not really | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
going to happen. You would have to have some state funding in order | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
to... I don't think they've agreed though. Has Nick Clegg signed up to | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
that? No, Nick has said it's not on the table for this Parliament. We | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
can't say was going to happen in 20, 30, 40 years. It's absurd to say so. | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
But how do we stop the influence? It's happened with this Government, | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
the last Government, every Government that money is to buy | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
influence and power. We have to have political parties that | :58:22. | :58:28. | |
function and funding them. But not large money from individuals. | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
cap, your party can't survive, therefore you need state funding. | :58:32. | :58:38. | |
What about your fund sning We'd be better off. What about the cap? | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
taxpayer should not bail out individual political parties. | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
stop you there. I don't hold out a lot of hope for agreement. Thank | :58:45. | :58:48. |