24/04/2012 Daily Politics


24/04/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn discuss James Murdoch's appearance at Leveson with Lord Winston. Plus film maker Michael Cockerell and UKIP London Mayor candidate Lawrence Webb.


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LineFromTo

Afternoon folk, welcome to the Daily Politics. James Murdoch gives

:00:41.:00:45.

evidence about the hacking scanned toll the Leveson Inquiry and runs

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into trouble over what did he know and when did he know it about the

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hacking scandal. Tory backbenchers criticise George Osborne's decision

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to loan �10 million to the IMF with one saying it is state sponsored

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money-laundering. As the London mayoral campaign enters the final

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stages we will talk to UKIP's candidate in the latest -- latest

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of our the contenders for Boris Johnson's job. Can a bit of

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celebrity stardust liven up a party election broadcast? We will ask the

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star of Labour's about his leading role. You can vote for the NHS

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service, to protect it. To improve it. All that coming up in the next

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hour, with us Labour peer, doctor, scientist, broadcast er, PEB star

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Robert Winston. Morning. We will come to the James Murdoch testimony

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shortly he is being questioned about the Murdoch family's links

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with politician in relation to the BSkyB, the attempt to take over all

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of BSkyB. We will bring you that and more in the next hour. Let us

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kick off with the star turn in Parliament today. Not Theresa May

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being questioned by MPs but none other than the comedian and actor

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Russell Brand. Ehere he is talking to the Home Affairs Committee this

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morning as part of their inquiry into drugs. For me what is more

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significant is the way we socially regard the condition of addiction.

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It is something that I consider to be an illness and therefore more a

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health matter than a criminal or judicial matter. I don't think that

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legalisation is something as I said I alqualified to get into. I can

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see areas where decriminalisation might be more useful and efficient,

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in countries like Portugal and Switzerland where there has been

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trials. It seems to have had some efibg si. It is more important we

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regard people suffering from addiction with compassion, and

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there is a pragmatic rather than symbolic approach to treating it.

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That was Russell Brand talking to MPs in the last half hour. It must

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be very warm in that Select Committee hearing. Either that or

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his acting career is not going so well! And he is struggling to

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afford any clothes. It detracted from what he had to say. Let us go

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to the substance. Drug policy at the moment in this country, I mean,

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in many, when you look at how widespread drugs are in this

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country, and the useage and the grief and horrible things they

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cause, the war on drugs hasn't really worked has it. No, I don't

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think the policy on drug -- drugs is rational. I think globally it

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isn't rational. We have roughly the same policy. We do which is to

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criminalise them to make it more difficult to obtain them. You push

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up the price of the drug, you increase the black market. There is

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a strong case for decriminalising drugs. All drugs? Probably all.

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mean as I understand it Russell Brand was a heroin addict at one

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stage. One of the great things about that is you could start with

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the softer drug, for example we know that cannabis which is hugely

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controversial are, it is dubious whether they cause serious ill

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effects and ex ta -- ecstasy that applies. I thought, our generation

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thinks, of cannabis from the 06. I am told that today, it is much

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tougher. It is much stronger. And the other argument is that it is a

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gateway drug. People start on cannabis and the people feeding

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them the cannabis are the ones who say why don't you try some cocaine.

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Crack, heroin. I know that and I think that is an argument which is

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often put forward, but the fact is, you know, is alcohol a gateway

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drug? The truth is alcohol kills far more people, damages more Clive

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lives. Alcohol is legal. Yes... the guy push Meg the bottle of

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whisky, and he is not pushing me, I go into the off-licence and ask for

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it, he is not then saying would you like to have something stronger

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under-the-counter? I think this of course is one of the reasons. There

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has been this conflict the scientific evidence and the policy

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evidence. Ministers have been adviceed by scientists that there

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should be a relaxing of some of the drugs while public policy has been

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in conflict because there are other issues like the alcohol issue and

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the pricing. Politicians run a mile from this, don't they, on the left

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and right. There are many occasion in public policy when you take

:05:47.:05:57.
:05:57.:05:57.

decisions which aren't necessarily entirely amicable to the population.

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Hanging, many people feel they would like to see on it statute

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books. Maybe we should be looking more bravely at drug useage. Does

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the appearance of someone like Russell Brand, does that matter?

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Does it make a difference? I can't believe it helps the Select

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Committee to take up a de-- decision like this. We had a Select

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Committee where we looked at cannabis and we came to the

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conclusion that really it would be quite reasonable to use cannabis as

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a prescriptive drug, Because we have to move on, we have the

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Murdoch testimony going on what is the difference between

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decriminalising drugs and legal ing them. I think there is a difference.

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If you decriminalise a drug you can regulate it. If you make it a

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criminal offence, then of course it is not regulated in the same way at

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all. OK. Jo. On to something different. Time for the quiz. The

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question for today is what does David Cameron, the Prime Minister,

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:07:09.:07:14.

often do at 5.45 in the morning sn? At the end of the show Lord Winston

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will give us the correct answer. It is just for fun so no need to mail

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in your answer. There is no prize. You have to watch on Wednesday to

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get a mug. The Leveson Inquiry into the culture practises and ethics of

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the media reaches a crucial moment this week, with both Rupert and

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James Murdoch being called at witnesses. Murdoch junior is up

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today. He is testifying as we speak with five-and-a-half hours devoted

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to questions the News Corp executive and his families

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relations with British politicians. Top of the list was the extent to

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which James Murdoch knew about illegal hacking at his newspapers

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and this whole issue which for many years was the defence it was just a

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rogue reporter and didn't go beyond that. That is right. The inquiry at

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the Royal Courts of Justice is entering what promises to be the

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most dramatic phase so far. Leveson was set up in response to the

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outrage over allegations that the News of the World had hacked the

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mobile phone of murdered schoolgirl Milly Dowler. The men who ran the

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media empire at the centre of the allegations Rupert and James

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Murdoch have already appeared at a memorable Select Committee meeting

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last year. At the Leveson Inquiry they will be questioned separately,

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for at least a full day each by a single barrister and they will be

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under oath. Today, it is James Murdoch's turn. He resigned as

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chairman of the news operation in February and is faith facing

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detailed questions over what he knew and when. The inquiry is

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turning to the relationship between the press and our leading

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politicians. Rupert Murdoch has had a front row seat in British

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political life for decades and comments suggest he is far from

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happy with the Government. So this could be an uncomfortable

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experience for Number Ten. James Murdoch has been giving evidence

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for the last couple of hours. Let us look at some of what he has been

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saying. Weren't you told that the new evidence related to others at

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News of the World? What is now known as the for Neville e-mail was

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is important for two reasons. One reason was it was a direct link

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between the News of the World and Mr Mulcaire's activity with respect

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to Gordon Taylor, that is what was told to me. There was another

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reason I appreciate that it linked to wider journalists and could have

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been the thread to say there was more going on there, and for that,

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and that part of it, that part of it's importance was not imparted to

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me that day: Did anybody tell you at the meeting, words to this

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effect, the, this guy is trying to blackmail us? I don't recall those

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words. Or anything like them, is that your evidence Mr Murdoch?

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don't remember those words or words like that, it was a short meeting,

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and what I can say... Holding us to ransom because although his case is

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worth much less, he knows that we know that the reputational harm o

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the company would be so great, that a vast overvalue of the claim has

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to be made by way of settlement to get rid of it. Was that

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communicated? That was not the gist of what was communicated to me.

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10th September 2009, you had drinks with Mr Cameron at a place called

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the George, the topic of the discussion was the Sun's proposed

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endorsement of the Conservative Party. Do you see that? Yes. Was it

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made clear to Mr Cameron that the Sun would be endorsing the

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Conservative Party? It was made clear to Mr Cameron by me, that

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after discussions with the editor and the leadership at News

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International and my father, that that autumn, the Sun would either

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be endorsing the Conservative Party or you know, moving away from its

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traditional or recent support of Labour as it had been through the

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summer. This must have been welcome news to Mr Cameron, wasn't it?

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seemed that way. James Murdoch, he is still testified and will do so

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for the rest of the day after a break for lunch at one clock. We

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are joined by the Labour MP Chris Bryant who has been involved in the

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whole hacking scandal and the former News of the World deputy

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editor Paul con-- conknew. I want to separate two things. First is

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James Murdoch's role in hacking scandal. The second his

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relationship and that of his father and company with politics at a time

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when hay were lobbying to buy all of BSkyB. Let us stick with the

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hacking to begin with on this. What do you think we learned this

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morning from the forensic questioning of James Murdoch by the

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QC? We learned that James Murdoch is sticking to his line but it is

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unconvincing. My problem is that James can keep on saying he never

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read the newspaper, he never spoke to the editor, he never saw any of

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the e-mails. He never investigated whether it was right to spend the

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best part of �1 million on paying off Gordon Taylor. That makes him

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look incompetent F that is the tkpai, the company was so large,

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that he he or his father count know what was going on on the shop floor,

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doesn't that suggest that we as politicians in this country allowed

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the Murdoch empire to be big to have too much of a stranglehold

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over the British media. If it was a construction firm the senior

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executives wouldn't be able to say sorry, there has been, a terrible

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accident but we did, we weren't able to know whether proper safety

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procedures have been pursued. My argument is the corporate

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governance at this organisation was shoddy at best. You were talking

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about a time when the News International defence and James

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Murdoch's defence was it was a rogue reporter, and that rogue

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reporter had been the royal correspondent of the News of the

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World and he had gone to jail. And so had the private detective that

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had been doing the hacking for him, and giving him the reports so it

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was done and dusted and justice had been done. Then, inside News

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International they come along to James Murdoch and say, Gordon

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Taylor is now hack and he is demanding a lot of money to settle

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out of court. We have to do it. Surely the fact that it was Gordon

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Taylor, who is involved in football, I think some kind of football union

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leader, is nothing to do with royalty or the royal correspondent,

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that in itself, I will come to the money in a minute that, in itself

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should have alerted anybody to the idea so it is more than Mr Goodman

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involved. Certainly. Without doubt James Murdoch is falling back on

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the one defence open to him, which is that basically I am incompetent,

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I didn't ask the right questions, I have a surprising lack of a

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questioning mind, but I am not, I am not corrupt, I didn't lie to

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Parliament. That is his position. am saying that there is a statement

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to make T statement is not a question, the statement is clearly,

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well if we are hacking into the phone of people involved in

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football, clearly it has gone beyond one rogue reporter, because

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Clive Goodman has nothing to do with football. Anybody with a

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probing mind, let alone somebody in charge of a major international

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company should have actually asked that question. He didn't. He says

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he didn't. That is quite unbelievable. I think anybody

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sitting there watching that, Joe Public will think that is very hard

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to believe. Then you come to the second part of this, which is first

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of all clearly Mr Taylor, he isn't royalty so not the royal

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correspondent, then the sum of money that News International is

:15:09.:15:14.

being asked to pay, or is having to pay to get Mr Taylor to settle out

:15:14.:15:19.

of court. It turns out to be way above any amount ever paid before

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in similar cases of involving privacy. Way above the amount of

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money that even the News International's own QC said would

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be the maximum amount, and it could only be that you pay this sum of

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money to avoid further reputational damage, and what can be the only

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further damage? But the fact that the rogue reporter defence doesn't

:15:44.:15:54.
:15:54.:15:56.

They knew for ages that the rogue reporter line was just that, a line

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which they hope they would be able to keep to. Watching James today,

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he is on oath, of course. Much more significant than when he was

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sitting next to his father... one person questioning him. Exactly

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and therefore much more frenzied. It shows up differences between the

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parliamentary and judicial system - - much more forensic. It looks like

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a man who is not telling the full truth. There is an awful lot of

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selective amnesia going on, just as he had wilful blindness previously

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when he did not read the whole of the Mail which said, by the way,

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there is mass criminality going on, in relation to the payment of

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police officers. For me, the most telling moment came from Lord

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Leveson, who has a habit of coming in with a really effective, short

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and polite questions. It was this. James's stance is to blame, Myler,

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the last editor, and the legal manager. But as Lord Leveson said,

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what was their motivation for keeping him in the dark? What

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logically would it be? Normally, in the circumstances, you want to

:17:07.:17:11.

spread the blame. In the case of Colin Myler, although he stands

:17:11.:17:15.

accused of having misled Parliament on his first estimate, is the fact

:17:15.:17:20.

he was not around in the country. - - his first testimony. He was not

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there at the time of the hacking. So it is hard to see what is

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motivation would be for withholding things. Let me get Robert Winston's

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comment on this part. I think my view is unpopular. I think one of

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the things that is missing is that BSkyB and the Murdoch print media

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have done an immensely good job at many tyres. Look at the Times'

:17:45.:17:50.

campaign on bicycling in London. Look at the Arts on BSkyB. Had this

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inquiry happened 10 years ago, it would have been much more

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significant. Increasingly, young people will be using the internet

:17:57.:18:02.

anyway, which will be almost impossible to regulate. I am not

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quite sure why that is relevant. the real problem is not the

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original phone hacking, it is the cover up. It is the perverse and of

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the course of justice. -- perversion. It is the biggest

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corporate corruption scandal in this country. I am thinking about

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how Leveson eventually decides what we do about it, and that is a big

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problem. The other issue is more difficult to keep tabs on because

:18:29.:18:32.

it is going on as we broadcast. There is implication from

:18:33.:18:38.

questioning from the QC, that the Murdoch organisation swung its

:18:38.:18:42.

support away from Labour and to the Conservatives, and then started to

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use that support to lobby for the right to buy the rest of BSkyB. The

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60% of BSkyB they didn't own. think there were three parts of the

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contract between the Murdochs and the Conservative Party. We have

:18:57.:19:01.

learned one thing which Cameron has not owned up to, that he did

:19:01.:19:04.

expressly discuss these matters with James Murdoch and Rupert

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Murdoch. Cameron has never owned up to that. Apparently they did it at

:19:09.:19:12.

Christmas lunch with Rebekah Brooks. And on another occasion, at the

:19:12.:19:17.

George pub, I don't know which George pub it is. I think there are

:19:17.:19:22.

three parts to this. Slash the BBC, that is what happened, although it

:19:22.:19:27.

was not necessary for the deficit. Secondly, the curtailing of Ofcom.

:19:28.:19:33.

Just after meeting Rupert Murdoch, David Cameron made a wonderful,

:19:33.:19:36.

wonderfully bizarre speech about slashing the quangos and the only

:19:36.:19:41.

one he was going to have a guard was Ofcom. And thirdly, it was

:19:41.:19:44.

allowing the BSkyB merger to go through. This gets very murky and

:19:44.:19:52.

difficult for Cameron. The one-time that James lost his head, his

:19:52.:19:57.

Harvard call, was when Vince Cable's name cropped up. And acute

:19:57.:20:02.

bias was the turn, in a flash of anger, probably the only real

:20:02.:20:07.

moment of anger. He may be justified from his particular

:20:07.:20:13.

position, given we know what Vince Cable thought. There is a lot of

:20:13.:20:17.

talk going around that this will be a tough week for Jeremy Hunt, the

:20:17.:20:21.

Culture Minister. Because he was very pro News International before

:20:21.:20:25.

we got into power. Indeed, he even had some great cheerleading thing

:20:25.:20:30.

on his website at one stage for the Murdochs. And he is the man who had

:20:30.:20:35.

to get involved in the BSkyB decision. We got a lot from Mr

:20:35.:20:39.

James Murdoch on, I don't recall details of my talks with Mr Hunt,

:20:39.:20:46.

it might have been to update him on the bid. For a young man... Me and

:20:46.:20:52.

Robert, we have more of an excuse now. You are obsessed with your age

:20:52.:20:57.

today. It is the third reference. don't remember. No, you don't

:20:57.:21:02.

recall! What I mean is that not to recall these things is quite...

:21:03.:21:07.

Unconvincing. I think it is extraordinary and I have never

:21:07.:21:10.

believed Jeremy Hunt on this. I had a private conversation with Jeremy

:21:10.:21:16.

Hunt when we were about to do any questions and he said, the only

:21:17.:21:20.

difference between you and me is that I would allow the BSkyB merger

:21:20.:21:24.

to go ahead tomorrow and you wouldn't. You are telling us, he

:21:24.:21:32.

said he was in favour of the full takeover? This was actually when it

:21:32.:21:37.

was still Vince Cable's responsibility. It appeared as I

:21:37.:21:42.

was coming in, James's evidence, that a meeting was only cancelled

:21:42.:21:47.

by Jeremy Hunt, it seems, on legal advice. Which she jests Jeremy Hunt

:21:47.:21:53.

was willing to still need him during the course of the BSkyB bid.

:21:53.:21:58.

-- which suggests. Where does this leave us? It has taken us not very

:21:58.:22:02.

much further forward on phone hacking. I think the revelation

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about politics will get stronger. Tomorrow, when Rupert Murdoch

:22:05.:22:15.
:22:15.:22:15.

appears, I think a few political bombs will be thrown. I hope the

:22:15.:22:18.

politicians, in the future, don't do what we have done for 40 years,

:22:18.:22:23.

which is allow one person to have such a sway. That includes Labour

:22:23.:22:27.

as much as anybody else. It is longer than 40 years, it has always

:22:27.:22:31.

gone on. That is why I think how you regulate the press is very

:22:31.:22:37.

difficult. The bit that is being avoided is the criminal stuff. I

:22:37.:22:43.

think when people see... I have seen some of the stuff, I think

:22:43.:22:47.

people will be truly shocked. you very much for that. We will

:22:47.:22:50.

bring you an update on what James Murdoch has been saying before the

:22:50.:22:54.

end of the programme. Time for the latest in a series of

:22:54.:22:57.

interviews with the candidates who hope to become the next Mayor of

:22:57.:23:02.

London. Today, the turn of UKIP's Lawrence Webb. What is his

:23:02.:23:07.

platform? He wants to stop any EU legislation impinging on the City

:23:07.:23:13.

of London. He is proposing zero- tolerance on gangs, knife crime and

:23:13.:23:16.

anti-social behaviour, with a new role of defender on Saturday, face

:23:16.:23:26.
:23:26.:23:28.

court on Monday. -- a new rule of They would restrict the extension

:23:28.:23:37.

-- and scrap the congestion charge. They would let landlords decide

:23:37.:23:40.

whether to have smoking in pubs and clubs. They want to make it easier

:23:40.:23:45.

for people to carry out citizens' arrests. Lawrence Webb has joined

:23:45.:23:48.

us in the studio. Thank you for coming in. Let's look at some of

:23:48.:23:52.

those quite eye-catching policies. The main problem is, you wouldn't

:23:52.:23:56.

have the power to implement them. There's a lot disgust that the

:23:56.:24:00.

other candidates have been discussing, that they can't do -- a

:24:00.:24:04.

lot that has been discussed. Part of the mayor's role is to create a

:24:04.:24:12.

vision for London. In terms of landlords allowing smoking, that

:24:12.:24:17.

would break the law. Businesses, pubs, have been closing at the rate

:24:17.:24:22.

of 28 per week. Have we have to create an environment which is good

:24:22.:24:26.

for business. It is a point that needs to be made. The government

:24:26.:24:30.

keep coming up with strategies to tackle anti-social behaviour,

:24:30.:24:34.

drinking and things like that. People don't get drunk in pubs.

:24:34.:24:37.

They buy cheap alcohol in supermarkets, landlords are they

:24:37.:24:44.

responsible to their drinkers. admit that many of the things you

:24:44.:24:48.

propose are not things you can do. They are creating a vision. People

:24:48.:24:53.

may think, the voters out there, cutting VAT, for example... Boris

:24:53.:24:56.

can't build an airport in the Thames Estuary but there has been

:24:56.:24:59.

an awful lot of coverage about it. It is creating a vision and that is

:24:59.:25:02.

what I am doing. What about some of the things that you could actually

:25:02.:25:07.

do? What are the leading lights in your manifesto in terms of what you

:25:07.:25:11.

could actually changed. One of the things people talk about his crime,

:25:11.:25:16.

people are concerned about crime. What we saw after the riots is that

:25:16.:25:19.

people were rounded up, brought before the courts and Del very

:25:19.:25:23.

quickly. Statistics show us that about 200 crimes a day are

:25:23.:25:27.

committed by people on bail. You only see the headlines with the

:25:27.:25:31.

murderers and rapists but a lot of those crimes are low-level anti-

:25:31.:25:35.

social crimes. The sooner people are put away, the less chance they

:25:35.:25:40.

have got to commit crimes, biting people's lives will stop you have

:25:40.:25:43.

also suggested the sit -- extension of citizens' arrest powers, how

:25:43.:25:47.

will that word? It deals with a lot of low-level

:25:47.:25:52.

crime. -- how will that work? People are afraid to intervene

:25:52.:25:56.

because they are afraid they will be arrested and charged. Or that

:25:56.:26:00.

they might get hurt? If a lot of it is a young kids committing crimes,

:26:00.:26:04.

on some of these estates around London, the perpetrators are

:26:04.:26:09.

actually quite young, 10, 11, 12, young teenagers. People used to

:26:09.:26:12.

have respect for adults and if people told them to pack it in,

:26:12.:26:19.

they would. Now they fear to get -- to intervene in case they get

:26:19.:26:23.

trouble themselves. Are you advising people to step in?

:26:23.:26:26.

would support people, if they are intervening to prevent crime, the

:26:26.:26:29.

law should protect those people that are upholding the law.

:26:29.:26:33.

don't think it is a dangerous line to cross-question not everyone is

:26:33.:26:39.

going to do it but where it is done, they should be supported. -- you

:26:39.:26:42.

don't think it is a dangerous line to cross?

:26:42.:26:47.

Have you got fresh choice for London as York slogan? Yes, we also

:26:47.:26:53.

have the logo on the ballot paper. -- as your slogan. We have the logo

:26:53.:26:58.

and the description is, fresh toys for London. As we were campaigning,

:26:58.:27:08.

that is what people wanted. You're not running a shy of the party?

:27:08.:27:15.

ballot paper has got UKIP on it. 2008, UKIP came in 7th place behind

:27:15.:27:19.

the BNP and the Christian People's around so what are your best hopes?

:27:19.:27:23.

A lot has happened since then. A recent poll put us less than one

:27:23.:27:26.

percentage point behind the Liberal Democrats and clearly ahead of the

:27:27.:27:32.

greens. That is despite the greens getting in all of the debates and

:27:32.:27:36.

me being resigned to the also-rans afterwards. You are all souk

:27:36.:27:40.

running for the London Assembly. -- also running. The media have

:27:40.:27:44.

portrayed this as a two-horse race. If you in the media but explain the

:27:44.:27:49.

voting system, it would open up the contest. The first vote is a truly

:27:49.:27:52.

free vote. You can vote for whichever party you want. Your

:27:52.:27:56.

second preference, your security blanket, if you like. If your

:27:56.:28:00.

preferred candidate doesn't get through, your second vote counts.

:28:00.:28:03.

Who would you advise voters to put a second preference? We have said

:28:03.:28:08.

boroughs because we think Ken would be so disastrous. -- we have said

:28:08.:28:13.

Boris. Would you consider running for London? I think the idea of the

:28:13.:28:18.

two-horse race is about right, I think it is one of the problems. I

:28:18.:28:21.

don't understand how we have arrived at the Labour Party

:28:21.:28:25.

choosing Ken Livingstone. I think it has been shown to be a tricky

:28:25.:28:28.

customer. I would have thought we would have had a fresher view about

:28:29.:28:34.

how London might be led. UKIP is the fresh choice. Forgive me, I

:28:34.:28:38.

don't think we will be supporting UKIP. We get support from a good

:28:38.:28:42.

many Labour voters. I think there is a real dilemma for lot of people

:28:43.:28:49.

in London at the moment. My personal view is a personal view. I

:28:49.:28:54.

am not sure that the party interest is the key issue here. I think the

:28:54.:28:59.

person who represents London, their personality is very important.

:28:59.:29:02.

Labour would argue he was a big enough personality to take on Boris

:29:02.:29:08.

Johnson. I think he has espoused some disastrous causes and some of

:29:08.:29:10.

his comments on international politics seem to be extremely

:29:10.:29:15.

unhealthy. Do you wish you had gone for it? Could you have been the

:29:15.:29:20.

alternative? Like Andrew, I am too old. I don't think there is an age

:29:20.:29:26.

barrier. Ken doesn't think there is. I like science. I am quite her

:29:26.:29:31.

young compared to Ken Livingstone. Did you think about it. It is too

:29:31.:29:36.

late now. I think you did. I didn't. And thank you very much, Lawrence

:29:36.:29:41.

Webb. Just over a week to go until the

:29:41.:29:46.

party's battle it out at the local elections. The race to be Mayor of

:29:46.:29:50.

London as well. They have many tools in their armoury, like the

:29:50.:29:54.

door-to-door leaflet drop, the appearances on programmes like this

:29:54.:30:00.

one, and not to forget, they are still around, the PEB, the party

:30:00.:30:03.

election broadcast. They come around every year, every time there

:30:03.:30:07.

is an election. I know all of you have been glued to those thrilling

:30:07.:30:12.

3 minute chunks of television gold. This year, our very own guest of

:30:12.:30:17.

the day, Robert Winston, has even starred in one. If you haven't had

:30:18.:30:25.

Pitch, real people, or should a political party throw a bit of

:30:25.:30:30.

celebrity into their election broadcast, like say a TV doctor.

:30:30.:30:35.

The NHS deals with when we are at our most vulnerable. At our most

:30:35.:30:42.

frightened. When we are naked. is bizarre. It is odd it is the

:30:42.:30:46.

local election. When does it tell you? OK. I am watching Labour's

:30:46.:30:52.

offering with man who makes it his business o know what sways if

:30:52.:30:55.

voters. What they have tried to do is use a professional. They are

:30:55.:30:58.

using Robert Winston, he is well- known from his work on television

:30:58.:31:03.

but he is a leading doctor, doctors are some of the most trusted people

:31:03.:31:08.

in Britain so Labour have gone for broke by having no politicians

:31:08.:31:15.

whatever in their video. But do politicians do it better? Boris

:31:15.:31:19.

Johnson and a Pickles Cameron duo take the lead for the Conservatives.

:31:19.:31:26.

Don't led Labour do to your council what it did to the country. Sach

:31:26.:31:31.

has been behind many Tory ad campaigns. Its chief executive says

:31:31.:31:36.

a leader's pitch sometimes doesn't work. Some politicians believe

:31:36.:31:41.

talking to camera and at people will be memorable. To a point it

:31:41.:31:47.

can be, but is it seeding in their mind an image thatly sta with them

:31:47.:31:57.
:31:57.:31:57.

and change their mind in where they put the tick in the box. There is a

:31:57.:32:03.

preponderance of men in suits. No men in suits for the Green Party.

:32:03.:32:07.

We can't vote. I can't vote. But you can. And real people are what

:32:07.:32:11.

it is all about for many of London's mayoral candidates

:32:12.:32:15.

although Ken Livingstone got into trouble over this one. This is a

:32:15.:32:18.

party political broadcast on behalf of ordinary Londoners. It turned

:32:18.:32:22.

out some of those ordinary Londoners had their lines scripted

:32:22.:32:25.

and were paid expenses to turn up. There are other ways to connect

:32:25.:32:30.

with the voter though. Like the faithful election battle bus for

:32:30.:32:34.

example which seems to be the tool of choice for London's mayoral

:32:34.:32:38.

hopefuls but you can't get a bus in your living room. Which is where

:32:38.:32:41.

you might think a party election broadcast on TV would be better.

:32:41.:32:46.

Seven out of ten said they watched one and one in eight said it had

:32:46.:32:49.

influenced the way they voted, which is the same as national press,

:32:49.:32:55.

so in a sense they can have an impact. And viewing figure show

:32:55.:33:00.

that party political broadcasts were watched by an average of 7

:33:00.:33:05.

10,000 people last year. A word of advice from the world of marketing?

:33:05.:33:09.

Effective political advertising is about setting an agenda, you make

:33:09.:33:13.

sure that the battle is fought on the territory that you want it to

:33:13.:33:18.

be fought on, not what the other side wants it to be fought on.

:33:18.:33:23.

Robert Winston who stars in that Labour latest election broadcast.

:33:23.:33:29.

We are joined by the man who knows everything and more about party

:33:29.:33:32.

election broadcasts aren't all that goes on round them Michael

:33:32.:33:36.

Cockerell, welcome back to the programme. Now, Robert you appear

:33:36.:33:40.

in this Labour broadcast and you talk about the National Health

:33:40.:33:44.

Service, it won't have escaped your mind it is not about the National

:33:44.:33:50.

Health Service. Unfortunately I think they are. There is a miscop

:33:50.:33:53.

shenion the Health and Social Care Bill involves local politics as

:33:53.:33:56.

more people come into social care and more payment will come from

:33:56.:33:59.

Local Authorities. That is the problem. You know, I don't see

:33:59.:34:04.

myself as a celebrity doing this, I had grave misgivings about doing it,

:34:04.:34:08.

but I feel so strongly this is a moral issue, I sat through this

:34:08.:34:12.

bill for a year-and-a-half, feeling increasingly uncomfortable and I

:34:12.:34:15.

felt I ought to speak out. understand that and you have been

:34:15.:34:19.

on this programme giving your struens health reform, I have no

:34:19.:34:25.

problem with that, but Local Authorities,, they deliver Health

:34:25.:34:29.

Service, but what you object to, what you complain about can only be

:34:29.:34:32.

changed by national Government. think it can be changed by a

:34:32.:34:35.

general feeling about what will be happening locally to be fair. You

:34:35.:34:40.

know one of the issues of course is that the health service has been

:34:40.:34:43.

fragmented, with the new commissioning groups there already

:34:43.:34:46.

several hundred groups of which they will be local who will be hor

:34:46.:34:51.

in charge of what happens locally. We will not have a National Health

:34:51.:34:57.

Service. The risk is we will have a local Health Service which has

:34:57.:35:00.

health inequalities in different parts, like London. There was a

:35:00.:35:04.

time some of us vaguely remember when there was no internet, no

:35:05.:35:08.

bloggers and the party political broadcasts were shown at the same

:35:08.:35:11.

time. Can you re, it didn't matter which channel you were watching,

:35:11.:35:15.

there it was. In these days you think if there is no escape they

:35:15.:35:20.

must have been important. Are they as important? I don't think they

:35:20.:35:24.

are. It was a captive audience. Now they are two or three minutes they

:35:24.:35:28.

used to be as long as a quarter of an hour or half an hour. It was

:35:28.:35:31.

Margaret Thatcher who first said I believe in choice, so you don't all

:35:31.:35:36.

to to watch me at the same time on the then three channels. She was

:35:36.:35:41.

the first one to do it and also she was the first one to be told by

:35:41.:35:44.

Saatchi and Saatchi, anything you can say in half an hour, quarter of

:35:44.:35:50.

an hour you can say in two or three minutes. They wanted to have spots

:35:50.:35:58.

like Americans, spots of 30 seconds. Why, Robert, is Ed Miliband not in

:35:58.:36:02.

the Labour commercial, if I can call it that? That is interesting.

:36:02.:36:07.

That is why I raised the question. I think you would have to ask him

:36:07.:36:12.

that question. And also the people who run, you know who run the party

:36:12.:36:21.

affairs. I am not in that circle. I have no idea. I understand. They

:36:21.:36:26.

put Robert Winston on as an ordinary person, celebrity,

:36:26.:36:30.

television doctor. With more credibility. He begins by saying I

:36:30.:36:34.

never thought I would make party political broadcast, although I had

:36:34.:36:41.

to suppress a certain smile when you, yes, watching you and talking

:36:41.:36:44.

extolling the virtues of the health service and attacking David Cameron.

:36:44.:36:48.

I seem to ren when Alastair Campbell has to put the thumb

:36:48.:36:52.

screws and gag on you when you attacked Labour's plan tons Health

:36:52.:36:56.

Service. We as a result of that doubled the investments in the

:36:56.:37:01.

Health Service, Tony Blair did come true, came through straight away

:37:01.:37:10.

and... We are not here to talk about Blair's health. Here is a

:37:10.:37:16.

thought, to get your reaction. We have always been against having

:37:16.:37:21.

commercials on British television for politicians, as some people

:37:21.:37:31.
:37:31.:37:32.

suggest it. Mr Basil get. So Mr Basil get, that why he has been

:37:32.:37:35.

Robert Winston throughout the show. He is suggesting it. One of the

:37:35.:37:40.

huge problems is the vast sums of money you need to buy, because the

:37:40.:37:43.

TV stations always demand the top dollar because you have nowhere

:37:43.:37:48.

else to go. I don't think many people want to go down that route.

:37:48.:37:52.

Rupert Murdoch of all people suggested Americans should have

:37:52.:37:55.

British style party election broadcasts for free in all the

:37:55.:38:00.

networks. In the age of broadband n internet. The parties can make

:38:00.:38:06.

their own commercials now and seen by a lot of people. Int There is

:38:06.:38:10.

still a huge audience on terrestrial television, they won't

:38:10.:38:15.

naturally use this and switch over, especially if the broadcast is made

:38:15.:38:19.

engaging, if you saw the David Cameron's one, it was made exactly

:38:19.:38:25.

like a news report, very much like Nick Robinson's news report. The

:38:25.:38:30.

same shot, getting on the train, holding his red bag, walking off by

:38:31.:38:35.

himself. Never gets off a train by himself. Gets off with 20 people.

:38:35.:38:41.

For a broadcast he gets off by himself. I think we better leave it

:38:41.:38:47.

there. Nobody cried in the making of these broadcasts were were told.

:38:48.:38:52.

Unlike Ken Livingstone, nobody cried. The authentic tears or not.

:38:52.:38:59.

Thank you for being on Michael. On Friday evening, George Osborne

:38:59.:39:05.

announced that Britain will loan the International Monetary Fund �

:39:05.:39:07.

10 billion. Yesterday the Chancellor explained his decison to

:39:07.:39:10.

the House of Commons and faced some criticism from both sides of the

:39:10.:39:20.
:39:20.:39:21.

house. We will not turn our back on the IMF or turn our back on the

:39:21.:39:26.

world: That would be a betrayal of our country's interests and our kun

:39:26.:39:29.

tri's identity, and it would incidentally at the same time be a

:39:29.:39:36.

betrayal of my party's history. Mr Speaker, it is because of the

:39:36.:39:39.

decisive action this Government has taken to deal with our own debts we

:39:39.:39:44.

can be part of the solution and no longer part of the problem. Would

:39:44.:39:48.

with the US not contributing this is clearly less than the UK's quota

:39:48.:39:53.

share. Could it be that if he had contributed a fraction more, he

:39:53.:39:59.

would have to come to this House and ask for Parliamentary approval?

:39:59.:40:04.

After the budget shambles of the last few weeks, isn't this

:40:04.:40:11.

Chancellor running scared of both sides of this snbg The only way

:40:11.:40:15.

that Spain, Italy Portugal and Greece are to become come petstive

:40:15.:40:20.

and get their economies growing again, is a return to national

:40:20.:40:24.

currency. Does not the chancellor agree that it is bonkers of a

:40:24.:40:31.

policy to pour billions of billions of UK tax payers' money into

:40:31.:40:38.

supporting to failed euro? When one's friends are trapped in a

:40:38.:40:41.

burning building, isn't the kindest thing to do to lead them in the

:40:41.:40:45.

direction of the exits in an ordinary way, rather than give them

:40:45.:40:55.
:40:55.:40:56.

billions to stay exactly where they are? It is to make sure that the

:40:56.:41:01.

Fire Brigade has enough water to deal with the problem. We all know

:41:01.:41:05.

this is state sponsored money laundering to prop up the failed,

:41:05.:41:09.

the doomed European project called the euro. It does not come without

:41:09.:41:15.

a heavy human cost, this deal means that in southern Europe the

:41:15.:41:20.

imposition of net tightening of 3% per year, without jouf setting

:41:20.:41:24.

monastery stim louse or demand growth in the rest of Europe or

:41:24.:41:29.

structural reforms. On that basis why is the Chancellor throwing good

:41:29.:41:35.

UK tapes money after bad for this - - taxpayers money after bad for

:41:35.:41:40.

this economic madness? And we are joined by the Conservative MP

:41:40.:41:46.

Claire Perry and Chris Lesley. Welcome to both of you. Yesterday

:41:46.:41:50.

George Osborne said that what he was doing was helping countries

:41:50.:41:55.

including groups of countries, the eurozone who get into trouble. Yet

:41:56.:41:59.

in October 2010 he said clearly Britain will not be putting money

:41:59.:42:08.

into the bail out fund directly or through in the IMF the IMF

:42:08.:42:12.

contributing money, no. It is true. It is not going into the bail out

:42:12.:42:18.

fund. It is going to... To bail out the euro. Isn't it great we part of

:42:18.:42:24.

the solution and not the problem. Let us get it right here. The IMF

:42:24.:42:28.

is putting the had round because it need more money for its number one

:42:28.:42:33.

consense which is the eurozone. No it is lending to countries not

:42:33.:42:37.

currencies. Let me finish the question. I am not talking about

:42:37.:42:41.

currency, I know it doesn't support currencies but your own Chancellor

:42:41.:42:45.

said including groups of countries it help, that is the eurozone. The

:42:45.:42:54.

reason why the IMF has done this, and you have to read anything, it

:42:54.:42:59.

needs a bigger firewall to help if the eurozone needs a bail out and

:42:59.:43:04.

the eurozone bail out will join with the IMF bail out. That is the

:43:04.:43:07.

opposite of what the Chancellor told us. What we heard yesterday it

:43:07.:43:13.

was the right thing to do, it was supported in November by your

:43:13.:43:15.

shadow cans lo, it was supported yesterday by Alistair Darling and

:43:15.:43:19.

it is the right thing to do. I go back to the point. We have a fire

:43:19.:43:25.

burning in Europe. We have euro gedsen, thank goodness we we are in

:43:25.:43:31.

Britain where the pound is at a high against the euro. You admit it

:43:31.:43:36.

could well be use for the bail out? We are not putting money into the

:43:36.:43:41.

bail out fund. What we are doing is supporting the international

:43:41.:43:43.

institution that will deliver global stability. I am confused

:43:43.:43:48.

here. Is this money, is there any chance or not in your view, that

:43:48.:43:54.

this money can be used by the IMF to help with the eurozone bail out?

:43:54.:43:58.

Will it be lent to Government like Greece, will it be lent to

:43:58.:44:01.

Government like Spain whose problems are not eurozone problem,

:44:01.:44:06.

they are the sorts 06 problems we have here. So it will be lent to

:44:06.:44:11.

them. That is an option for the IMF. So it will be used in eurozone

:44:11.:44:15.

abilities. It will not go into the eurozone bail out fund. Excuse me,

:44:15.:44:21.

I am not... Look, I think language is important here. Some honesty

:44:21.:44:25.

here, you are dancing on the head of a pin. I don't think I am.

:44:25.:44:29.

are making me angry. I am not asking you if it is going into the

:44:29.:44:33.

eurozone bail out. I know that is not the case. Every financial

:44:33.:44:37.

commentator in the world knows that the purpose of this bail out, this

:44:37.:44:43.

extra money for the IMF is for the IMF to work with the eurozone bail

:44:43.:44:47.

out fund, to bail out the eurozone together. But not directly. It is

:44:47.:44:53.

going into Government lending this is the point. Andrew, I think the

:44:53.:44:56.

reason why Claire and the Chancellor are having so many

:44:56.:45:00.

problems with their own backbenchers, just a second Claire,

:45:00.:45:05.

Claire... You are not very good at letting other people have their

:45:05.:45:09.

word. Not when they are wrong. reason why so many people are angry

:45:09.:45:12.

is because the Chancellor and in a sense by your own comments you are

:45:12.:45:17.

treating them like fools, pretending that somehow this ten

:45:17.:45:22.

billion extra isn't intended for the euro bail out solution and if,

:45:22.:45:28.

this is money you might well rinse it through the IMF, but to suggest

:45:28.:45:32.

somehow that this... Just a second Claire, to suggest this isn't going

:45:32.:45:36.

to be propping up the bail out fund, which in terms of the eurozone

:45:36.:45:39.

countries themselves we, are talking wealthy country, including

:45:39.:45:43.

Germany who should have been dipping into their pocket, instead

:45:43.:45:47.

you are letting them off the hook so we, the rest of the world put

:45:47.:45:57.
:45:57.:45:58.

Excuse me, I have got to ask him a question. Excuse me, I want to ask

:45:58.:46:04.

me -- him a question, would you let somebody else speak for a minute?

:46:04.:46:09.

Are you in favour of giving more money to the bail-out fund or not.

:46:09.:46:14.

Let him answer! It is very difficult with Claire in the room

:46:14.:46:18.

sometimes. The important thing that we have to do is look at the

:46:18.:46:23.

American position on this, the Canadian position. It is yes or no.

:46:23.:46:27.

They are saying no money for the euro bail-out, whether it is direct

:46:27.:46:30.

or indirect. I know what the American position is, what is your

:46:30.:46:37.

position. We say no and the reason is at this point in time, the

:46:37.:46:39.

eurozone countries have not been coming up with their own resources.

:46:39.:46:45.

We are letting them off the hook. My point is if we keep it in this

:46:45.:46:48.

sticking-plaster in place, it will keep taking the money from the rest

:46:48.:46:54.

of the world. For the avoidance of doubt, can I get it clear that if

:46:54.:46:59.

the IMF had come to a Labour government currently in power,

:46:59.:47:04.

would you have given the money to the IMF? No. Because it is letting

:47:04.:47:09.

them off the hook. There is a negotiation here. It is a finely

:47:09.:47:13.

balanced issue. We want the resent to be healthy and get into a state

:47:14.:47:17.

where it doesn't put the rest of the economy at risk. And where we

:47:17.:47:21.

have to support an IMF in a general sense. In this set of circumstances

:47:21.:47:25.

as a negotiation, wealthy eurozone countries and the rest of the world,

:47:25.:47:30.

to what extent can we make sure they dig into their own pockets. If

:47:30.:47:35.

we let them off the hook, we are not doing them a favour. This is

:47:35.:47:39.

the usual level of pathetic, put a full political posturing that you

:47:39.:47:45.

Alistair Darling, who has come out of your omnishambles of a Labour

:47:45.:47:48.

government with his reputation intact, said he would agree with

:47:48.:47:52.

this. Ed Balls said last November he would agree with it. You need to

:47:52.:47:56.

make up your mind to be a trouble opposition, because frankly, if I

:47:56.:48:01.

could just speak. Trying to deal with you is so difficult. This sort

:48:01.:48:05.

of pathetic political posturing has got to stop. Nobody takes you

:48:06.:48:10.

seriously, you have no economic credibility and the sorts of

:48:10.:48:13.

ridiculous comments you are making today, and Ed Balls made yesterday,

:48:13.:48:21.

proved that. Can I ask a final question. If this money is not to

:48:21.:48:25.

be used in concert with a eurozone bail-out to add to the size of the

:48:26.:48:30.

firewall for the eurozone, why is it the Americans have said we're

:48:30.:48:34.

not giving us money to the IMF, because it would be used to add to

:48:34.:48:40.

the eurozone firewall. We have a choice. I have no idea. The

:48:40.:48:44.

Americans said we have provided extraordinary amounts of liquidity

:48:44.:48:48.

through the market. The European Central Bank has provided

:48:48.:48:51.

extraordinary amount of liquidity, a supercharged programme. It is

:48:51.:48:54.

time for all sorts of countries including the UK to step up and

:48:55.:49:03.

deal with this crisis. What is very clear at is that the government

:49:03.:49:09.

when they are in a whole, they try to become more shrill. Is that

:49:09.:49:14.

because I am a woman? No, you are refusing to engage in the argument.

:49:14.:49:22.

You either bail them out now, or you hold back, don't give our money,

:49:22.:49:27.

UK tax payer's money at a time when they should be digging into their

:49:27.:49:34.

own pockets. I am not going to make any apologies, it is British money.

:49:34.:49:38.

Thank you very much. Don't interrupt me.

:49:38.:49:42.

Nick Clegg wants to scrap it and start it again but what has the

:49:42.:49:47.

Deputy Prime Minister got against the House of Lords?

:49:47.:49:56.

Here is a guide to Parliament's upper house.

:49:56.:50:00.

The Upper House is the second chamber, the House of Lords. It is

:50:00.:50:04.

independent of the elected Commons but the two houses share

:50:04.:50:08.

responsibility for checking laws and passing government action.

:50:08.:50:12.

There are 800 members of the House of Lords, the number is not fixed

:50:12.:50:16.

as it is in the Commons, and there is, as ever, talk of change.

:50:16.:50:20.

Basically, they split into three types. There are the life peers,

:50:20.:50:24.

there for the lifetime. There are 26 bishops of the Church of England

:50:24.:50:29.

and there are 92 hereditary peers, there until, well, until he knows

:50:29.:50:35.

when? The -- who knows. Lords are not elected, they are sent here

:50:35.:50:40.

mainly by the party leaders. They come from assorted fields. Some are

:50:40.:50:45.

great experts. Had they spent a bit more, we might have had a bill

:50:45.:50:49.

which would have damaged the health service a great deal less. Quite a

:50:49.:50:57.

few ex-MPs wash up here too. Debate about the quality of our national

:50:57.:51:01.

performance, in which we are all involved. This is the Prince's

:51:01.:51:05.

Chamber, a working ante room which leads into the House of Lords

:51:05.:51:09.

Chamber. It is a place where peers can come to meet, mingle and maybe

:51:09.:51:13.

do a little bit of plotting. The role of the Lords is to act as a

:51:13.:51:18.

body of specialist knowledge. The country's elders, to scrutinise in

:51:18.:51:22.

greater detail bills that have been approved by the Commons. Bills have

:51:22.:51:27.

to be approved by the Commons and the Lords. They have here in the

:51:27.:51:30.

House of Lords, government ministers, too. Not all members of

:51:30.:51:34.

the House of Lords belong to political parties. You have the

:51:34.:51:37.

crossbench peers and the bishops. They are neutral. Well, they are

:51:37.:51:41.

meant to be. The New Testament shows Jesus as having a very

:51:41.:51:44.

special concern for children. Lords acts as a constitutional

:51:44.:51:47.

safeguard. The fact it isn't elected is actually rather an

:51:47.:51:51.

important part of its flavour at the moment. It can challenge the

:51:51.:51:55.

wishes of the majority when they threaten to steamroller certain

:51:55.:52:01.

important rights. The Lords can ask the Commons to think again. It is a

:52:01.:52:07.

bit like having your homework sent back by a politically -- pernickety

:52:07.:52:16.

Robert Winston is still ask -- with us, he is a Labour member of the

:52:16.:52:19.

House of Lords. Those in favour of plans to reform the upper chamber

:52:19.:52:23.

say it is unelected, unaccountable, half the people don't turn up half

:52:23.:52:27.

the time, it is desperately-needed to be reformed and to have a mainly

:52:27.:52:33.

elected House. What is wrong with One thing is that you don't hear

:52:34.:52:37.

arguments like you have just heard in the House of Lords. People tried

:52:37.:52:40.

to look at the evidence for something and then work out what is

:52:40.:52:46.

the best solution. People like myself may take a Labour whip, or

:52:46.:52:50.

even the members of the Labour Party, but I see myself independent

:52:50.:52:55.

of my party. I often am prepared to vote against it or certainly argue

:52:55.:52:58.

against it, just as many Conservatives who, with proper

:52:58.:53:02.

legitimacy, do the same thing. This is rather unusual in a political

:53:02.:53:08.

chamber. Are you against changing it at all? No, of course not. What

:53:08.:53:11.

we should be doing is to try to decide what kind of Parliament we

:53:11.:53:15.

want to serve the best interests of the nation's, rather than to tamper

:53:15.:53:18.

with one part of the mechanism which is working quite well at the

:53:18.:53:26.

moment. We have 800 or so, not enough room, too much cost, it

:53:26.:53:31.

needs to be streamlined. I take the argument about the expertise. You

:53:31.:53:36.

could still retain an element of that expertise if you are talking

:53:36.:53:40.

about crossbenchers or even party figures like yourselves who have

:53:40.:53:43.

had other lives, in the arrangement that the government is putting

:53:43.:53:49.

forward. I don't have a problem with anything you are saying. The

:53:49.:53:52.

case for reform is not an issue. There is obviously a need for

:53:52.:53:57.

reform. But we have a bill produced by Nick Clegg, who has never sat

:53:57.:54:00.

through a debate in the House of Lords, never been to a committee,

:54:00.:54:05.

doesn't actually know how the chamber works. He must do. I don't

:54:05.:54:10.

think he does. A Labour MP said to me, after 20 years in the House of

:54:10.:54:14.

Commons, tell me, do you wear your robes during debates in the House

:54:15.:54:19.

of Lords? That shows the ignorance of the Commons. What is your

:54:20.:54:26.

biggest worry? The elected part, or are you worried about the party

:54:26.:54:31.

political part? What is your biggest concern? The biggest

:54:31.:54:35.

objection to the elected bit is you end up with people are not

:54:35.:54:37.

accountable over 15 years because they don't come back to the

:54:37.:54:43.

electorate. That is a big flaw in the Clegg bill. Also, there is an

:54:43.:54:47.

issue that one of the beauties of the place is you don't have a

:54:47.:54:50.

second-rate Commons. You have an independent chamber which is able,

:54:50.:54:55.

by looking in detail at legislation, to advise about the best way to go

:54:55.:55:02.

forward. Would you stand for election? No. That was brief. Well

:55:02.:55:05.

done. The straightest answer we have had

:55:05.:55:09.

all day! James Murdoch has been giving evidence to the Leveson

:55:09.:55:14.

inquiry all morning. In the last half hour he has been questioned

:55:14.:55:18.

about the bid for the part of BSkyB that the Murdoch organisation does

:55:18.:55:24.

not own. And about relations between News International and

:55:24.:55:28.

senior politicians. Would it be fair to say that Mrs Brooks bore

:55:28.:55:32.

the brunt of the majority of meetings with politicians, because

:55:32.:55:38.

of their relationship with politicians? -- her relationship.

:55:38.:55:42.

have seen the skill of the Prime Minister's meetings in that period.

:55:42.:55:46.

I can't remember exactly, she would have been closer to those issues

:55:46.:55:52.

than I was. Was it part of the general way of working, as it were,

:55:52.:55:56.

that Mrs Brooks might report back to you as to the outcome of any

:55:56.:56:00.

discussions, or the fact of any discussions with politicians, and

:56:00.:56:04.

then you would report anything important back to your father?

:56:04.:56:07.

time to time, she would report to me about a discussion that was

:56:07.:56:10.

relevant but she would also communicate directly with my father,

:56:10.:56:15.

with some frequency. That was James Murdoch, this is James Landale. We

:56:16.:56:21.

have done the hacking staff, this has gone on to the relationship

:56:21.:56:23.

between senior News Corp people and senior government people, including

:56:23.:56:29.

the Prime Minister, and this whole lobbying for them to buy all of

:56:29.:56:34.

BSkyB. What do we know? There is no great new smoking gun, no great

:56:34.:56:38.

document or fact that has emerged that totally changes what we knew

:56:38.:56:42.

previously. But we do know a bit more detail about the scale of the

:56:42.:56:46.

meetings that were taking place, the discussions being had. Also

:56:46.:56:49.

some of the discussions taking place in private. We have heard

:56:49.:56:53.

about the dinners that members of the Murdoch family had with David

:56:53.:56:57.

Cameron at Christmas. In the evidence we have got, from the

:56:57.:57:00.

written evidence and also the oral evidence, we know how much lobbying

:57:00.:57:05.

was going on by News International, to try to get the government on

:57:05.:57:11.

side. News International, you are saying, you obviously had superb

:57:11.:57:16.

links into government by virtue of owning four newspapers. It was

:57:16.:57:21.

leverage in these links to lobby for the BSkyB bid? That is the line

:57:21.:57:26.

of questioning that the QC involved in running the questioning has done.

:57:26.:57:31.

That is what he is trying to gnaw away at and say that his private

:57:31.:57:38.

conversations, these meetings with George Osborne and David Cameron,

:57:38.:57:41.

semis social private occasions, they were not just there for fun.

:57:41.:57:45.

They were there to lobby and pursue. What James Murdoch has been saying

:57:45.:57:51.

is no, anything he said, to use his phrase, would have been the same as

:57:51.:57:55.

his public advocacy. Is there feeling the Culture Secretary,

:57:55.:57:59.

Jeremy Hunt, is in some trouble over this? There are concerns about

:57:59.:58:02.

the nature of the relationship between Jeremy Hunt and James

:58:02.:58:06.

Murdoch, that was raised by the Leveson inquiry. Saying, he was

:58:07.:58:11.

onside, a natural ally. James Murdoch said, no more than anybody

:58:11.:58:15.

else. There was some humour and Jeremy Hunt saying on his website,

:58:15.:58:19.

that as any conservative, he thinks the Murdochs have made a great can

:58:19.:58:26.

go mad as contribution to British television. Teresa May has just

:58:26.:58:30.

started her defence. She said she had an ambiguous advice, that the

:58:30.:58:37.

deadline for this appeal was on Monday -- unambiguous advice.

:58:37.:58:42.

you for that. Thank you to Robert Winston and all of our guests. The

:58:42.:58:49.

answer is that David Cameron is usually reading through his papers

:58:49.:58:55.

Andrew and Jo are joined by Lord Winston, the Labour peer, and fertility expert for the whole programme.

They will be looking at the Leveson Inquiry where James Murdoch is due to give evidence. We'll also be looking at party election broadcasts with the documentary maker Michael Cockerell, and speaking to the UKIP London Mayor candidate Lawrence Webb.


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