02/07/2012 Daily Politics


02/07/2012

Jo Coburn with reaction to the resignation of Barclays chairman Marcus Agius. Plus, Nigel Farage and Will Hutton discuss when the right time is for a referendum on Europe.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 02/07/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning and welcome to the Daily Politics. The bank rate

:00:46.:00:49.

fixing scandal has sent shockwaves through the industry and claimed

:00:49.:00:54.

its first scalp - Barclays chairman Marcus Agius resigns and says "the

:00:54.:00:57.

buck stops with me", but could Barclays chief executive Bob

:00:57.:01:00.

Diamond be next? Conservative MPs tell David Cameron

:01:00.:01:04.

his promise of a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU is

:01:04.:01:08.

just "jam tomorrow". Mr Cameron is preparing to report to the House of

:01:08.:01:11.

Commons after last week's EU summit, but has the Prime Minister just

:01:11.:01:17.

made more trouble for himself? Also today: we have got to get the

:01:17.:01:22.

pro-European message across. And we have got to do that before

:01:22.:01:27.

breakfast, before lunch, and Michael, before dinner as well.

:01:27.:01:31.

European leaders fight to keep the euro show on the road, we ask,

:01:31.:01:35.

whatever happened to those who supported Britain joining the

:01:35.:01:40.

currency of the ten years ago? British Rail - we are getting there.

:01:40.:01:44.

And should Britain's were always be brought back into public ownership?

:01:44.:01:50.

We will talk to Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary, Maria Eagle.

:01:50.:01:55.

All that in the next half-hour. With us for the programme today is

:01:55.:01:59.

the economist Will Hutton. Let's kick off with the latest on the

:01:59.:02:02.

back great fixing scandal. It has been confirmed this morning that

:02:02.:02:06.

the chairman of Barclays, Marcus Agius, is to stand down, say the

:02:06.:02:10.

company's reputation had suffered a devastating blow. But at

:02:10.:02:15.

Westminster, the pressure on the bank, which last week paid a record

:02:15.:02:20.

its �290 million in fines, is set only to increase. Critics say chief

:02:20.:02:23.

executive Bob Diamond should carry the can because he ran Barclays'

:02:23.:02:26.

investment bank during the period when its traders were trying to

:02:26.:02:30.

manipulate the LIBOR rates. He is set to face a grilling by the

:02:30.:02:32.

Commons Treasury Select Committee on Wednesday, where he will

:02:32.:02:35.

probably be asked about reports that at one stage, employees

:02:35.:02:38.

believed they were acting on instructions from the Bank of

:02:38.:02:42.

England. Labour leader Ed Miliband has called on Mr Diamond to go,

:02:42.:02:47.

saying there needs to be more than a change of leadership at the back.

:02:47.:02:51.

Labour are also calling for a year- long public inquiry into the

:02:51.:02:53.

culture of the entire banking industry. But the Government notes

:02:53.:02:57.

that it has already ordered a review of the workings of the

:02:57.:03:01.

interbank lending rates. The Business Secretary Vince Cable says

:03:01.:03:03.

the serious Fraud Office is having a fresh look at the evidence from

:03:03.:03:07.

the rigging scandal, raising the prospect of a criminal

:03:07.:03:10.

investigation. And the wrongdoing at Barclay's could be the tip of

:03:10.:03:14.

the iceberg, with up to 20 other banks and financial firms still

:03:14.:03:19.

under investigation. We are joined now by Zia Ullah, a partner at the

:03:19.:03:22.

law firm Pannone, and who was former head of sanctions at

:03:22.:03:26.

Barclays. Did you have any idea this was going on, and are you

:03:26.:03:32.

shocked that your colleagues were involved? - absolutely not. And

:03:32.:03:41.

totally shocked. 99.9% of people who work for Barclays would also be

:03:41.:03:48.

shocked at what has been revealed. In terms of Barclays being the

:03:48.:03:52.

first to settle, an indication that this is the tip of the iceberg, do

:03:52.:03:55.

you agree that this is widespread, and we are only hearing about

:03:55.:04:00.

Barclays because they agreed to settle? Absolutely. I have been

:04:00.:04:03.

slightly disappointed at some of the comments made by some of the

:04:03.:04:06.

political commentators with respect to what action should or should not

:04:06.:04:11.

be taken against Barclays. I do not say that as a former employee, I

:04:11.:04:16.

say it more in terms of my criminal legal practice. There is serious

:04:16.:04:21.

prejudice being caused here by a lot of the comments being made and

:04:21.:04:24.

the furore in relation to Barclays. You say rightly that it is the tip

:04:24.:04:28.

of the iceberg. There are a number of institutions being investigated

:04:28.:04:33.

by the FSA and regulators across the globe. It is wiser for people

:04:33.:04:36.

to await the outcome of those investigations before shouting from

:04:36.:04:42.

the treetops as to what they think should happen. Do you think there

:04:42.:04:44.

has been paid judge or reporting against Barclays when this has

:04:44.:04:48.

probably spread throughout the industry? -- do you think there has

:04:48.:04:54.

been prejudicial reporting? To a degree, I agree with that. There

:04:54.:05:00.

are a number of banks being investigated. In the States, the

:05:00.:05:04.

FBI are launching an investigation. It is a much bigger story than

:05:04.:05:14.

Barclays. But I was surprised that you were head of compliance - the

:05:14.:05:17.

FT reported on Friday that there were three incidences of

:05:17.:05:24.

whistleblowers, people try to draw attention to the Compliance Office,

:05:24.:05:30.

of this game in LIBOR in 2006. That must have been on file, mustn't it?

:05:30.:05:34.

Firstly, I worked for group compliance, and as far as I

:05:34.:05:39.

understand it, the FSA investigation relates to a

:05:39.:05:44.

different department. That is an example of the complexity of this

:05:44.:05:49.

issue. We are talking about a massive institution, with different

:05:49.:05:55.

sectors. This is why there has to be an investigation. What sort of

:05:55.:05:59.

investigation? Barclays themselves are announcing this internal

:05:59.:06:06.

investigation. It can't just be a 41 trading desk in one investment

:06:06.:06:11.

bank. The other banks will have to follow suit. There will have to be

:06:11.:06:19.

an investigation led by a judge. Like Leveson? Like that, into

:06:19.:06:25.

proprietary trading desks. Is that a good idea? It is not for me to

:06:25.:06:30.

judge whether it is right or wrong. That is a fair comment as to

:06:30.:06:33.

whether there should be a wider investigation. The issue I have

:06:34.:06:39.

with what has happened of the past few days is that issues like what

:06:39.:06:43.

the Department of Justice said in relation to Barclays' conduct has

:06:43.:06:47.

not been reported. They said their conduct had been extraordinary in

:06:47.:06:51.

terms of the corporation they had given into the investigation. They

:06:51.:06:55.

have enabled the investigations to carry on. That isn't important

:06:55.:07:00.

point that Bob Diamond made in his letter to Andrew Tyrie, the

:07:00.:07:02.

chairman of the select committee. He made the point that he has

:07:03.:07:08.

collaborated. Other banks will be upset with Barclays, because they

:07:08.:07:12.

would say Barclays has "last", if you like, and turned over a lot of

:07:12.:07:18.

evidence to the regulators. So Barclays may end up in a better

:07:18.:07:27.

position. Should Bob Diamond go? Probably. Should he go? It is not

:07:27.:07:31.

for me to say. Do you think that would help Barclays? You have

:07:31.:07:37.

talked about the fact that you feel they are being held up unfairly as

:07:37.:07:42.

culpable. Would it help if Bob Diamond went? Not the Sara Lee. He

:07:42.:07:47.

should be judged on what he has done for the back, both for

:07:47.:07:51.

shareholders, investors and others inside the bank. They should not be

:07:51.:07:56.

judged by political commentators on the wider issues relating to his

:07:56.:08:01.

bonus or the credit crunch. We are mixing a lot of different issues

:08:01.:08:06.

here. If you are talking purely about LIBOR, let's talk about that.

:08:06.:08:10.

On that issue, then, should he go or should there be a criminal

:08:10.:08:13.

investigation? The FSA has engaged in a long-standing investigation

:08:13.:08:18.

into what happened with LIBOR. This has not come out of the blue. They

:08:18.:08:22.

have been engaged for more than 12 months. They have also engaged with

:08:22.:08:27.

other prosecuting authorities in the US and UK. Whether there should

:08:27.:08:30.

be a criminal investigation will have been assessed already by these

:08:30.:08:35.

bodies. The situation Bob Diamond finds himself in is not unlike the

:08:35.:08:38.

situation some ministers find themselves in when a political hue

:08:38.:08:43.

and cry goes up. You have to lance the boil, and the way we do that in

:08:43.:08:49.

Britain is through accountability and someone taking the rap. Perhaps

:08:49.:08:55.

if politicians did the same, there might be more of a case. Aspect

:08:55.:08:58.

that Bob Diamond will have to do it. Whatever the rights and wrongs,

:08:59.:09:02.

Barclays will have to say it is different now.

:09:02.:09:06.

After appearing to rule out an in- out referendum on Britain's

:09:06.:09:09.

membership of the E one Friday, yesterday David Cameron wrote an

:09:09.:09:12.

article suggesting that a future Conservative government may hold a

:09:12.:09:16.

referendum at some point, although he did not say when. That has not

:09:16.:09:20.

please some Tory backbenchers, who are demanding that the PM gives a

:09:20.:09:24.

cast-iron guarantee of a referendum. Remember that expression? This

:09:24.:09:27.

morning, the former Defence Secretary Liam Fox added fuel to

:09:27.:09:31.

the fire. In the last hour, he said he supported calls for a referendum,

:09:31.:09:36.

but added that now is not the right time. I would like to see Britain

:09:36.:09:41.

negotiating new relationship with the EU, based on economic rather

:09:41.:09:45.

than political considerations and set out in clear and unambiguous

:09:45.:09:50.

language. If we succeed, a referendum should be held and

:09:50.:09:56.

formal acceptance advocated. If, on the other hand, this approach is

:09:56.:10:02.

rejected outright or falls short of our necessary red lines, we would

:10:02.:10:06.

have no alternative but to recommend rejection and consider

:10:06.:10:12.

departure from the European Union. I am joined now by the Gidley de

:10:12.:10:14.

Nigel Farage and the Conservative MP Stewart Jackson, who resigned

:10:14.:10:18.

last autumn as a ministerial aide after he voted in favour of a

:10:18.:10:23.

referendum. Stewart Jackson, what was your reaction to David

:10:23.:10:28.

Cameron's comments that there may be a referendum at some point?

:10:28.:10:33.

welcome them as far as they go, but there is a danger that we are not

:10:33.:10:36.

learning the lessons of the cast- iron guarantee that the Lisbon

:10:36.:10:41.

Treaty promised on the referendum. You can only play FTSE and

:10:41.:10:45.

titillation with the electors for so long before there is a

:10:45.:10:48.

discrepancy between what voters think you are saying and what you

:10:48.:10:54.

are actually saying. We want an unambiguous commitment, a road map

:10:54.:10:59.

to real negotiation at this historic juncture with the EU and a

:10:59.:11:04.

referendum to let the people decide. Do you want a renegotiation first

:11:04.:11:11.

and then an in-out referendum? morning, I was at Liam Fox's speech,

:11:11.:11:15.

and he made a very coherent case that the Europhiles want an

:11:15.:11:18.

immediate EU in out referendum because they think they can win it

:11:18.:11:25.

through scaremongering and, basically, lies about our role

:11:25.:11:31.

outside the European Union. I think we need firstly to use the

:11:31.:11:37.

opportunity of this historic moment in European-British relations to

:11:37.:11:40.

use that leverage to drive a hard bargain and get powers back from

:11:40.:11:45.

the EU before we go for a referendum. Nigel, you could say

:11:45.:11:48.

that the Conservatives have moved a long way in six months, even if

:11:48.:11:51.

they are not satisfying backbenchers. The promise of a

:11:51.:11:55.

referendum would make you know and void? I heard that Cameron speech.

:11:55.:12:00.

It was the most pro EU speech he has ever given. It was passionate -

:12:00.:12:04.

we must stay part of the EU, it brings enormous benefits to this

:12:04.:12:08.

country, and I do not want a referendum because I have made my

:12:08.:12:12.

mind up and we should stay in. The need for UKIP is greater than it

:12:12.:12:16.

has ever been. I am very nervous about this renegotiation, because

:12:16.:12:21.

we may finish up in a 1975 top position where we apparently won

:12:21.:12:25.

back fisheries in the Solent, and it is put to a referendum and we

:12:25.:12:28.

are kept trapped inside the European market. Isn't there a

:12:28.:12:31.

worry that the way Tory backbenchers are behaving well end

:12:31.:12:35.

up splitting the party, and in the end, the party will have a

:12:35.:12:38.

fractious time which will do it no good? We won the argument

:12:38.:12:44.

historicist. We were told to rule out EU membership for one

:12:44.:12:48.

parliament. People like Will Hutton thought it was fantastic, when

:12:48.:12:52.

actually, it is a recession causing mechanism inflicting poverty on

:12:52.:12:58.

millions of Europeans. Why don't you join UKIP, then? Because the

:12:58.:13:01.

party best placed to take on this historic challenge to trust the

:13:01.:13:05.

people is the Conservatives. your leader is explicit in thinking

:13:05.:13:09.

EU membership is a good thing, and the British must not be allowed a

:13:09.:13:14.

vote in case they give the wrong answer. He said so on Friday.

:13:14.:13:21.

and I agree that we should not sign up to the Common Market referendum

:13:21.:13:26.

in 1975 into greater creation of one country called Europe. It is

:13:26.:13:31.

time we trusted the people. People do not just senior -- people do not

:13:31.:13:36.

trust senior politicians any longer. But you said yourself that you have

:13:36.:13:41.

been banking on having a say, and you have been denied it. One is not

:13:41.:13:45.

mutually exclusive of the other. You can press for renegotiation.

:13:45.:13:50.

David Cameron has to be clear and specific, with a time frame about

:13:50.:13:54.

what that renegotiation will be, whether it is social policy or

:13:54.:13:59.

justice etc. Isn't that sensible, Nigel? This is not the time to have

:13:59.:14:04.

this argument. We might as well see, as William Hague was saying, what

:14:04.:14:09.

kind of Europe we end up with after they have sorted themselves out.

:14:09.:14:12.

You are right in one way that several countries may leave the

:14:12.:14:16.

Eurozone, and that could change the shape of the EU. But what is for

:14:16.:14:22.

certain is that we will get an EU that is ever more deeply integrated,

:14:22.:14:27.

ever more undemocratic. And as the EU itself is moving on and changing

:14:27.:14:31.

into something different, now is the right time for us to have that

:14:31.:14:36.

debate. There is no guarantee of an exit with a referendum. There is no

:14:36.:14:40.

guarantee, but I was a businessman. I got involved in politics because

:14:40.:14:44.

I felt these three parties were offering us no choice on this issue.

:14:44.:14:48.

Where I agree with Nigel is that UKIP is a major threat to the

:14:48.:14:51.

Conservative Party at the general election. If they Paul above a

:14:51.:14:59.

certain percentage, like 5%, if they pull above that, the chances

:14:59.:15:01.

of the Conservative Party getting an overall majority diminish

:15:01.:15:06.

rapidly. Therefore, it is in our interest as a party as well as the

:15:06.:15:09.

national interest to take this debate head-on and have a mature

:15:09.:15:13.

debate. The stronger UKIP is, the more likely a referendum will

:15:13.:15:23.
:15:23.:15:23.

Your reaction to this argument about many Tory backbenchers

:15:23.:15:28.

feeling deprived. They are being marched up the hill by David

:15:28.:15:36.

Cameron. This referendum would make it final, with an to it? I am very

:15:36.:15:40.

suspicious. I am not sure they are the democratic instrument there you

:15:40.:15:45.

say they are. The second point is, I think in/out, a lot of people

:15:46.:15:50.

work in the car industry, a lot of people work in the City of London

:15:50.:15:54.

and in higher education who think, leaving the European Union will

:15:55.:16:03.

give us a kick up the butt. Because you are on the centre of right,

:16:03.:16:10.

there is 10%, 20% of the population who are very passionate about it.

:16:10.:16:15.

An enormous number in the centre up unconvinced. You have never asked

:16:15.:16:21.

opinions! I believe we vote MPs and they take decisions in the House of

:16:21.:16:30.

Commons on our behalf. People are going to vote for this because of

:16:30.:16:40.
:16:40.:16:40.

the X Factor. That is a really complacent and patronising attitude.

:16:40.:16:48.

There is a global trade world. Why be locked into a backward looking,

:16:48.:16:58.
:16:58.:16:58.

overtaxed, credit union? You have not moved on since the 1970s.

:16:58.:17:01.

are 60 countries around the world that now have a free trade

:17:01.:17:06.

agreement with the European Union. As their biggest export market,

:17:06.:17:11.

we're asking for the same thing. are going to move on. The British

:17:11.:17:15.

economy may not have much going for it at the moment, but there is one

:17:15.:17:18.

thing... At least we're not in the eurozone! Younger viewers may not

:17:18.:17:21.

remember but, at the turn of the century, there was a campaign to

:17:21.:17:24.

get Britain to sign up to the single currency, spearheaded by

:17:24.:17:27.

Tony Blair and uniting such diverse figures as Charles Kennedy, Ken

:17:27.:17:29.

Clarke and Peter Mandelson. Now you would think pro-euro campaigners

:17:29.:17:32.

would be keeping pretty schtum right now but, believe it or not,

:17:32.:17:35.

there are a few brave souls willing to put their heads above the

:17:35.:17:45.
:17:45.:17:47.

parapet. We sent David into the heart of the City to seek them out.

:17:47.:17:52.

The debate has been dominated by the Euro-sceptics. A their heady

:17:52.:17:56.

days of 1999 when all the hip kids were damp with the euro and wanting

:17:56.:18:04.

to keep the pound was distinctly Square. These days, not so much.

:18:04.:18:11.

The wisdom is that wise -- while staying out that we dodged a pretty

:18:11.:18:16.

big economic bullet. Here at the Daily Politics we like to grab hold

:18:17.:18:22.

of the wisdom and slap it about. There is a school of thought that

:18:22.:18:27.

says if Britain had joined the euro we might be better off than we are.

:18:27.:18:31.

I am always struck that George Osborne and Ed Balls say how lucky

:18:31.:18:37.

we are that we did not join the euro - how bad things would be had

:18:37.:18:41.

rejoined. I look around at the state of the British economy and

:18:41.:18:45.

think, could it really be worse than theirs? The only major economy

:18:46.:18:52.

in the G 28 in a double dip recession. We have a deficit the

:18:52.:18:59.

size of Greece. Bigger fall in output and France or Germany. Could

:18:59.:19:04.

it really have been worse than that had we join the euro? Some people

:19:04.:19:08.

think if we had to join the euro, it might have kept our economy a

:19:09.:19:15.

bit more honest. Britain has been getting by since the 1960s on

:19:15.:19:20.

periodic devaluations of the pound. On this occasion we devalued the

:19:20.:19:26.

pound 25% against the euro. We went down 25%. The Bank of England has

:19:26.:19:31.

been printing a lot of money to try to keep the economy afloat. We

:19:31.:19:36.

could not do that if we work in the euro. Probably we should not do all

:19:36.:19:43.

rely on that as the long-term route forward. Surely the idea of Britain

:19:43.:19:49.

ever joining the euro in the future it is unthinkable, isn't it? In 20,

:19:49.:19:54.

30 or 40 years' time, Europe will have a single currency. The

:19:54.:20:03.

pressure is on Britain to join that. The eurozone main look crazy right

:20:03.:20:07.

now but the campaign to take Britain into the euro is not dead -

:20:07.:20:17.

it is only sleeping. David Thompson reporting. Will you admit you got

:20:17.:20:22.

it spectacularly wrong? I do not accept the terms of the question.

:20:22.:20:26.

The euro will survive. The situation in Britain economically

:20:26.:20:31.

is a disaster. Philip Stephens made the point and he is right. We are

:20:31.:20:39.

four years into this recession. Out book is billed 4% below the peak. -

:20:39.:20:44.

- output is still. We're in profound trouble. One of the

:20:44.:20:48.

disastrous things that happened by not joining the euro is that

:20:48.:20:53.

because the city is very big, it sat in a lot of capital abroad and

:20:53.:20:59.

pushed up the exchange rate to sky- high levels. We have had a big

:20:59.:21:06.

devaluation of more than 25%. The response has been very

:21:06.:21:10.

disappointing. We have had the guts pulled out of the backbone of our

:21:10.:21:15.

economy by not having a fixed relationship with the euro. Now I

:21:15.:21:22.

think... A witch you like to see Britain join the euro? I went. --

:21:22.:21:31.

would you like? All those rioting pictures of the Greeks, we could

:21:31.:21:39.

play pictures of last summer's riots. The Nazi party is on the

:21:39.:21:44.

rise in Greece. These riots are persistent. Use an implement over

:21:44.:21:49.

50% and being forced into a downward deflationary spiral.

:21:49.:21:56.

much better here? We're in a double-dip recession. We have Lord

:21:56.:22:00.

Monk saying that Britain should not rely on a weak currency. Will

:22:00.:22:05.

Hutton has said for too long the pound was too high. Let it float

:22:05.:22:09.

and find its level. We join the exchange-rate mechanism and saw

:22:09.:22:16.

what a total disaster it was. -- joined. We may see democracy and

:22:16.:22:21.

gross back to Europe. He neglected to mention a had a real-terms

:22:21.:22:27.

increase in public expenditure which was completely unsustainable.

:22:27.:22:32.

We went to �702 billion with a massive structural deficit. If we

:22:32.:22:36.

work in the euro, it would not have low ridges to do with monetary and

:22:36.:22:46.

fiscal policy. -- leverage us to deal. It is strange that they are

:22:46.:22:55.

not apologising for the creation of the United States of Europe. People

:22:55.:23:01.

are being forced into poverty and destitution in record numbers. We

:23:01.:23:07.

may have seen that here. It is not exactly made in Britain. There is

:23:07.:23:12.

acute poverty. There is acute poverty in Britain, acute social

:23:12.:23:21.

distress in Britain. The idea it is a Nirvana and social distress there.

:23:21.:23:28.

Why have the Greeks voted to stay in the euro? There was a centre

:23:28.:23:34.

Left movement of which was trying to get out. Everyone in the Greek

:23:34.:23:41.

election wanted to stay in the euro. We would hardly be punching above

:23:41.:23:46.

our weight. They backed of the matter is, we have more exports

:23:46.:23:50.

received from the European Union they meet export. The export more

:23:50.:23:58.

to Ireland them Russia or China. Our trade arrangements would, in

:23:58.:24:03.

any case, be guaranteed by the World Trade Organisation. The idea

:24:03.:24:08.

that we would be in a darkroom when no one would want to speak to us.

:24:08.:24:14.

There is a big world out there. We are a global trading nation.

:24:14.:24:18.

Nothing preventing us from exploiting all those opportunities.

:24:19.:24:25.

Yes, there is. I am going to stop you there. We could go on all trade.

:24:25.:24:34.

Thank you very much. -- all day. Now, how many of you remember this?

:24:34.:24:39.

British Rail have come up with something called customer care

:24:39.:24:45.

school. People will notice the difference. Sorry seems to be the

:24:45.:24:51.

hardest word. British Rail. We are getting there. Yes, it was the ill-

:24:51.:24:55.

fated attempt of British Rail to re-brand in the 1980s. Not that it

:24:55.:24:58.

did them much good! Well, today a think-tank has published a report

:24:58.:25:00.

suggesting that the national rail network should be brought back

:25:00.:25:03.

under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent

:25:03.:25:06.

private companies from making huge profits. The Labour Party are still

:25:07.:25:10.

in the middle of a policy review but are said to be interested in

:25:10.:25:13.

the idea. To find out why, we're joined by Maria Eagle, Labour's

:25:13.:25:22.

Shadow Transport Secretary. We are talking about renationalising?

:25:22.:25:27.

report says Buchan bring back part of the network into public

:25:27.:25:32.

ownership without buying out and recreating British Rail. You would

:25:32.:25:39.

not want to do that! We have made no decisions as shed. If I consider

:25:39.:25:48.

this to be an interesting contribution. -- as yet. Passengers

:25:48.:25:52.

are being clobbered with the highest fares in Europe at the same

:25:52.:25:57.

time we are putting in �4 billion of subsidy into the system. The

:25:57.:26:03.

report says the fragmentation has costs of up to �1.2 billion the

:26:03.:26:07.

year. That ought to be used instead of dealing with the preparation

:26:07.:26:12.

into running the services. We could cut fares if that were to be the

:26:12.:26:22.
:26:22.:26:22.

place - us. Can you legislate to keep the system as was? -- the case.

:26:22.:26:26.

Labour Party policy is to say we will cap the fare rises and remove

:26:26.:26:30.

the capacity the current government has given back to increase fares by

:26:30.:26:35.

more pampered cap. We have said we would do that. The fragmentation of

:26:35.:26:43.

the industry is costing �1.2 billion a year. What would you do

:26:43.:26:44.

with the companies that are currently running the train

:26:45.:26:50.

operating services? The report suggests this is not about going am

:26:50.:26:55.

buy-out contracts. The franchises are sometimes handed back.

:26:55.:27:01.

Sometimes they do not work properly. They come to an end. At the moment,

:27:01.:27:09.

the East Coast Main Line, one of the most proper -- profitable lines,

:27:09.:27:15.

is being run by a non-profit-making company. Do you think the rises in

:27:16.:27:21.

fez up a huge issue? Rail fares in Britain have been going up in real

:27:21.:27:26.

terms since privatisation. If you are a key meeting in any part of

:27:26.:27:33.

the country, you are effectively being taxed. -- are commuting.

:27:33.:27:38.

Fragmentation does cost. There has been quite a lot of innovation

:27:38.:27:43.

being brought into the rail industry. And the investment and

:27:43.:27:53.

the money that comes with it. have state ownership of the

:27:53.:28:00.

railways. It is just not owned by the UK government. I wondered

:28:00.:28:07.

whether there might be a feature - we are talking about the John Lewis

:28:07.:28:12.

model. -- a future. It would be interesting to run the railway

:28:12.:28:18.

system like this. Employees would have a stake in running the system.

:28:18.:28:22.

It is a public service. Whether bringing it back into the kind of

:28:22.:28:30.

public ownership we saw in Britain 25, 30 years ago, is the answer, I

:28:30.:28:37.

think would be prettied of a book to sell. -- pretty difficult to

:28:37.:28:43.

sell. We are looking at whether the not the dividend model could be

:28:43.:28:48.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, including reaction to the resignation of Barclays chairman Marcus Agius. Nigel Farage and Will Hutton discuss when the right time is for a referendum on Europe. Plus, does Labour want to take us back to the days of British Rail? The programme asks their shadow transport secretary, Maria Eagle.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS