Browse content similar to 02/07/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to the Daily Politics. The bank rate | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
fixing scandal has sent shockwaves through the industry and claimed | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
its first scalp - Barclays chairman Marcus Agius resigns and says "the | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
buck stops with me", but could Barclays chief executive Bob | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
Diamond be next? Conservative MPs tell David Cameron | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
his promise of a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU is | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
just "jam tomorrow". Mr Cameron is preparing to report to the House of | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
Commons after last week's EU summit, but has the Prime Minister just | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
made more trouble for himself? Also today: we have got to get the | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
pro-European message across. And we have got to do that before | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
breakfast, before lunch, and Michael, before dinner as well. | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
European leaders fight to keep the euro show on the road, we ask, | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
whatever happened to those who supported Britain joining the | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
currency of the ten years ago? British Rail - we are getting there. | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
And should Britain's were always be brought back into public ownership? | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
We will talk to Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary, Maria Eagle. | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
All that in the next half-hour. With us for the programme today is | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
the economist Will Hutton. Let's kick off with the latest on the | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
back great fixing scandal. It has been confirmed this morning that | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
the chairman of Barclays, Marcus Agius, is to stand down, say the | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
company's reputation had suffered a devastating blow. But at | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
Westminster, the pressure on the bank, which last week paid a record | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
its �290 million in fines, is set only to increase. Critics say chief | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
executive Bob Diamond should carry the can because he ran Barclays' | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
investment bank during the period when its traders were trying to | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
manipulate the LIBOR rates. He is set to face a grilling by the | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
Commons Treasury Select Committee on Wednesday, where he will | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
probably be asked about reports that at one stage, employees | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
believed they were acting on instructions from the Bank of | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
England. Labour leader Ed Miliband has called on Mr Diamond to go, | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
saying there needs to be more than a change of leadership at the back. | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
Labour are also calling for a year- long public inquiry into the | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
culture of the entire banking industry. But the Government notes | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
that it has already ordered a review of the workings of the | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
interbank lending rates. The Business Secretary Vince Cable says | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
the serious Fraud Office is having a fresh look at the evidence from | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
the rigging scandal, raising the prospect of a criminal | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
investigation. And the wrongdoing at Barclay's could be the tip of | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
the iceberg, with up to 20 other banks and financial firms still | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
under investigation. We are joined now by Zia Ullah, a partner at the | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
law firm Pannone, and who was former head of sanctions at | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
Barclays. Did you have any idea this was going on, and are you | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
shocked that your colleagues were involved? - absolutely not. And | :03:32. | :03:41. | |
totally shocked. 99.9% of people who work for Barclays would also be | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
shocked at what has been revealed. In terms of Barclays being the | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
first to settle, an indication that this is the tip of the iceberg, do | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
you agree that this is widespread, and we are only hearing about | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
Barclays because they agreed to settle? Absolutely. I have been | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
slightly disappointed at some of the comments made by some of the | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
political commentators with respect to what action should or should not | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
be taken against Barclays. I do not say that as a former employee, I | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
say it more in terms of my criminal legal practice. There is serious | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
prejudice being caused here by a lot of the comments being made and | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
the furore in relation to Barclays. You say rightly that it is the tip | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
of the iceberg. There are a number of institutions being investigated | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
by the FSA and regulators across the globe. It is wiser for people | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
to await the outcome of those investigations before shouting from | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
the treetops as to what they think should happen. Do you think there | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
has been paid judge or reporting against Barclays when this has | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
probably spread throughout the industry? -- do you think there has | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
been prejudicial reporting? To a degree, I agree with that. There | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
are a number of banks being investigated. In the States, the | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
FBI are launching an investigation. It is a much bigger story than | :05:04. | :05:14. | |
Barclays. But I was surprised that you were head of compliance - the | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
FT reported on Friday that there were three incidences of | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
whistleblowers, people try to draw attention to the Compliance Office, | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
of this game in LIBOR in 2006. That must have been on file, mustn't it? | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
Firstly, I worked for group compliance, and as far as I | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
understand it, the FSA investigation relates to a | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
different department. That is an example of the complexity of this | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
issue. We are talking about a massive institution, with different | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
sectors. This is why there has to be an investigation. What sort of | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
investigation? Barclays themselves are announcing this internal | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
investigation. It can't just be a 41 trading desk in one investment | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
bank. The other banks will have to follow suit. There will have to be | :06:11. | :06:19. | |
an investigation led by a judge. Like Leveson? Like that, into | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
proprietary trading desks. Is that a good idea? It is not for me to | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
judge whether it is right or wrong. That is a fair comment as to | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
whether there should be a wider investigation. The issue I have | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
with what has happened of the past few days is that issues like what | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
the Department of Justice said in relation to Barclays' conduct has | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
not been reported. They said their conduct had been extraordinary in | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
terms of the corporation they had given into the investigation. They | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
have enabled the investigations to carry on. That isn't important | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
point that Bob Diamond made in his letter to Andrew Tyrie, the | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
chairman of the select committee. He made the point that he has | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
collaborated. Other banks will be upset with Barclays, because they | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
would say Barclays has "last", if you like, and turned over a lot of | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
evidence to the regulators. So Barclays may end up in a better | :07:18. | :07:27. | |
position. Should Bob Diamond go? Probably. Should he go? It is not | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
for me to say. Do you think that would help Barclays? You have | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
talked about the fact that you feel they are being held up unfairly as | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
culpable. Would it help if Bob Diamond went? Not the Sara Lee. He | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
should be judged on what he has done for the back, both for | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
shareholders, investors and others inside the bank. They should not be | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
judged by political commentators on the wider issues relating to his | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
bonus or the credit crunch. We are mixing a lot of different issues | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
here. If you are talking purely about LIBOR, let's talk about that. | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
On that issue, then, should he go or should there be a criminal | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
investigation? The FSA has engaged in a long-standing investigation | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
into what happened with LIBOR. This has not come out of the blue. They | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
have been engaged for more than 12 months. They have also engaged with | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
other prosecuting authorities in the US and UK. Whether there should | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
be a criminal investigation will have been assessed already by these | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
bodies. The situation Bob Diamond finds himself in is not unlike the | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
situation some ministers find themselves in when a political hue | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
and cry goes up. You have to lance the boil, and the way we do that in | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
Britain is through accountability and someone taking the rap. Perhaps | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
if politicians did the same, there might be more of a case. Aspect | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
that Bob Diamond will have to do it. Whatever the rights and wrongs, | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
Barclays will have to say it is different now. | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
After appearing to rule out an in- out referendum on Britain's | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
membership of the E one Friday, yesterday David Cameron wrote an | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
article suggesting that a future Conservative government may hold a | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
referendum at some point, although he did not say when. That has not | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
please some Tory backbenchers, who are demanding that the PM gives a | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
cast-iron guarantee of a referendum. Remember that expression? This | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
morning, the former Defence Secretary Liam Fox added fuel to | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
the fire. In the last hour, he said he supported calls for a referendum, | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
but added that now is not the right time. I would like to see Britain | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
negotiating new relationship with the EU, based on economic rather | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
than political considerations and set out in clear and unambiguous | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
language. If we succeed, a referendum should be held and | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
formal acceptance advocated. If, on the other hand, this approach is | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
rejected outright or falls short of our necessary red lines, we would | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
have no alternative but to recommend rejection and consider | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
departure from the European Union. I am joined now by the Gidley de | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
Nigel Farage and the Conservative MP Stewart Jackson, who resigned | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
last autumn as a ministerial aide after he voted in favour of a | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
referendum. Stewart Jackson, what was your reaction to David | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
Cameron's comments that there may be a referendum at some point? | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
welcome them as far as they go, but there is a danger that we are not | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
learning the lessons of the cast- iron guarantee that the Lisbon | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
Treaty promised on the referendum. You can only play FTSE and | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
titillation with the electors for so long before there is a | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
discrepancy between what voters think you are saying and what you | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
are actually saying. We want an unambiguous commitment, a road map | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
to real negotiation at this historic juncture with the EU and a | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
referendum to let the people decide. Do you want a renegotiation first | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
and then an in-out referendum? morning, I was at Liam Fox's speech, | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
and he made a very coherent case that the Europhiles want an | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
immediate EU in out referendum because they think they can win it | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
through scaremongering and, basically, lies about our role | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
outside the European Union. I think we need firstly to use the | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
opportunity of this historic moment in European-British relations to | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
use that leverage to drive a hard bargain and get powers back from | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
the EU before we go for a referendum. Nigel, you could say | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
that the Conservatives have moved a long way in six months, even if | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
they are not satisfying backbenchers. The promise of a | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
referendum would make you know and void? I heard that Cameron speech. | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
It was the most pro EU speech he has ever given. It was passionate - | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
we must stay part of the EU, it brings enormous benefits to this | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
country, and I do not want a referendum because I have made my | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
mind up and we should stay in. The need for UKIP is greater than it | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
has ever been. I am very nervous about this renegotiation, because | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
we may finish up in a 1975 top position where we apparently won | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
back fisheries in the Solent, and it is put to a referendum and we | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
are kept trapped inside the European market. Isn't there a | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
worry that the way Tory backbenchers are behaving well end | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
up splitting the party, and in the end, the party will have a | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
fractious time which will do it no good? We won the argument | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
historicist. We were told to rule out EU membership for one | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
parliament. People like Will Hutton thought it was fantastic, when | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
actually, it is a recession causing mechanism inflicting poverty on | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
millions of Europeans. Why don't you join UKIP, then? Because the | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
party best placed to take on this historic challenge to trust the | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
people is the Conservatives. your leader is explicit in thinking | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
EU membership is a good thing, and the British must not be allowed a | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
vote in case they give the wrong answer. He said so on Friday. | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
and I agree that we should not sign up to the Common Market referendum | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
in 1975 into greater creation of one country called Europe. It is | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
time we trusted the people. People do not just senior -- people do not | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
trust senior politicians any longer. But you said yourself that you have | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
been banking on having a say, and you have been denied it. One is not | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
mutually exclusive of the other. You can press for renegotiation. | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
David Cameron has to be clear and specific, with a time frame about | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
what that renegotiation will be, whether it is social policy or | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
justice etc. Isn't that sensible, Nigel? This is not the time to have | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
this argument. We might as well see, as William Hague was saying, what | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
kind of Europe we end up with after they have sorted themselves out. | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
You are right in one way that several countries may leave the | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
Eurozone, and that could change the shape of the EU. But what is for | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
certain is that we will get an EU that is ever more deeply integrated, | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
ever more undemocratic. And as the EU itself is moving on and changing | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
into something different, now is the right time for us to have that | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
debate. There is no guarantee of an exit with a referendum. There is no | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
guarantee, but I was a businessman. I got involved in politics because | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
I felt these three parties were offering us no choice on this issue. | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
Where I agree with Nigel is that UKIP is a major threat to the | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
Conservative Party at the general election. If they Paul above a | :14:51. | :14:59. | |
certain percentage, like 5%, if they pull above that, the chances | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
of the Conservative Party getting an overall majority diminish | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
rapidly. Therefore, it is in our interest as a party as well as the | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
national interest to take this debate head-on and have a mature | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
debate. The stronger UKIP is, the more likely a referendum will | :15:13. | :15:23. | |
:15:23. | :15:23. | ||
Your reaction to this argument about many Tory backbenchers | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
feeling deprived. They are being marched up the hill by David | :15:28. | :15:36. | |
Cameron. This referendum would make it final, with an to it? I am very | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
suspicious. I am not sure they are the democratic instrument there you | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
say they are. The second point is, I think in/out, a lot of people | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
work in the car industry, a lot of people work in the City of London | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
and in higher education who think, leaving the European Union will | :15:55. | :16:03. | |
give us a kick up the butt. Because you are on the centre of right, | :16:03. | :16:10. | |
there is 10%, 20% of the population who are very passionate about it. | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
An enormous number in the centre up unconvinced. You have never asked | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
opinions! I believe we vote MPs and they take decisions in the House of | :16:21. | :16:30. | |
Commons on our behalf. People are going to vote for this because of | :16:30. | :16:40. | |
:16:40. | :16:40. | ||
the X Factor. That is a really complacent and patronising attitude. | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
There is a global trade world. Why be locked into a backward looking, | :16:48. | :16:58. | |
:16:58. | :16:58. | ||
overtaxed, credit union? You have not moved on since the 1970s. | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
are 60 countries around the world that now have a free trade | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
agreement with the European Union. As their biggest export market, | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
we're asking for the same thing. are going to move on. The British | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
economy may not have much going for it at the moment, but there is one | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
thing... At least we're not in the eurozone! Younger viewers may not | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
remember but, at the turn of the century, there was a campaign to | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
get Britain to sign up to the single currency, spearheaded by | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
Tony Blair and uniting such diverse figures as Charles Kennedy, Ken | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
Clarke and Peter Mandelson. Now you would think pro-euro campaigners | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
would be keeping pretty schtum right now but, believe it or not, | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
there are a few brave souls willing to put their heads above the | :17:35. | :17:45. | |
:17:45. | :17:47. | ||
parapet. We sent David into the heart of the City to seek them out. | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
The debate has been dominated by the Euro-sceptics. A their heady | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
days of 1999 when all the hip kids were damp with the euro and wanting | :17:56. | :18:04. | |
to keep the pound was distinctly Square. These days, not so much. | :18:04. | :18:11. | |
The wisdom is that wise -- while staying out that we dodged a pretty | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
big economic bullet. Here at the Daily Politics we like to grab hold | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
of the wisdom and slap it about. There is a school of thought that | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
says if Britain had joined the euro we might be better off than we are. | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
I am always struck that George Osborne and Ed Balls say how lucky | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
we are that we did not join the euro - how bad things would be had | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
rejoined. I look around at the state of the British economy and | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
think, could it really be worse than theirs? The only major economy | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
in the G 28 in a double dip recession. We have a deficit the | :18:52. | :18:59. | |
size of Greece. Bigger fall in output and France or Germany. Could | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
it really have been worse than that had we join the euro? Some people | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
think if we had to join the euro, it might have kept our economy a | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
bit more honest. Britain has been getting by since the 1960s on | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
periodic devaluations of the pound. On this occasion we devalued the | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
pound 25% against the euro. We went down 25%. The Bank of England has | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
been printing a lot of money to try to keep the economy afloat. We | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
could not do that if we work in the euro. Probably we should not do all | :19:36. | :19:43. | |
rely on that as the long-term route forward. Surely the idea of Britain | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
ever joining the euro in the future it is unthinkable, isn't it? In 20, | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
30 or 40 years' time, Europe will have a single currency. The | :19:54. | :20:03. | |
pressure is on Britain to join that. The eurozone main look crazy right | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
now but the campaign to take Britain into the euro is not dead - | :20:07. | :20:17. | |
it is only sleeping. David Thompson reporting. Will you admit you got | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
it spectacularly wrong? I do not accept the terms of the question. | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
The euro will survive. The situation in Britain economically | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
is a disaster. Philip Stephens made the point and he is right. We are | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
four years into this recession. Out book is billed 4% below the peak. - | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
- output is still. We're in profound trouble. One of the | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
disastrous things that happened by not joining the euro is that | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
because the city is very big, it sat in a lot of capital abroad and | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
pushed up the exchange rate to sky- high levels. We have had a big | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
devaluation of more than 25%. The response has been very | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
disappointing. We have had the guts pulled out of the backbone of our | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
economy by not having a fixed relationship with the euro. Now I | :21:15. | :21:22. | |
think... A witch you like to see Britain join the euro? I went. -- | :21:22. | :21:31. | |
would you like? All those rioting pictures of the Greeks, we could | :21:31. | :21:39. | |
play pictures of last summer's riots. The Nazi party is on the | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
rise in Greece. These riots are persistent. Use an implement over | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
50% and being forced into a downward deflationary spiral. | :21:49. | :21:56. | |
much better here? We're in a double-dip recession. We have Lord | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
Monk saying that Britain should not rely on a weak currency. Will | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
Hutton has said for too long the pound was too high. Let it float | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
and find its level. We join the exchange-rate mechanism and saw | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
what a total disaster it was. -- joined. We may see democracy and | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
gross back to Europe. He neglected to mention a had a real-terms | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
increase in public expenditure which was completely unsustainable. | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
We went to �702 billion with a massive structural deficit. If we | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
work in the euro, it would not have low ridges to do with monetary and | :22:36. | :22:46. | |
fiscal policy. -- leverage us to deal. It is strange that they are | :22:46. | :22:55. | |
not apologising for the creation of the United States of Europe. People | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
are being forced into poverty and destitution in record numbers. We | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
may have seen that here. It is not exactly made in Britain. There is | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
acute poverty. There is acute poverty in Britain, acute social | :23:12. | :23:21. | |
distress in Britain. The idea it is a Nirvana and social distress there. | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
Why have the Greeks voted to stay in the euro? There was a centre | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
Left movement of which was trying to get out. Everyone in the Greek | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
election wanted to stay in the euro. We would hardly be punching above | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
our weight. They backed of the matter is, we have more exports | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
received from the European Union they meet export. The export more | :23:50. | :23:58. | |
to Ireland them Russia or China. Our trade arrangements would, in | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
any case, be guaranteed by the World Trade Organisation. The idea | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
that we would be in a darkroom when no one would want to speak to us. | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
There is a big world out there. We are a global trading nation. | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
Nothing preventing us from exploiting all those opportunities. | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
Yes, there is. I am going to stop you there. We could go on all trade. | :24:25. | :24:34. | |
Thank you very much. -- all day. Now, how many of you remember this? | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
British Rail have come up with something called customer care | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
school. People will notice the difference. Sorry seems to be the | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
hardest word. British Rail. We are getting there. Yes, it was the ill- | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
fated attempt of British Rail to re-brand in the 1980s. Not that it | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
did them much good! Well, today a think-tank has published a report | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
suggesting that the national rail network should be brought back | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
under public ownership in order to halt big fare increases and prevent | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
private companies from making huge profits. The Labour Party are still | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
in the middle of a policy review but are said to be interested in | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
the idea. To find out why, we're joined by Maria Eagle, Labour's | :25:13. | :25:22. | |
Shadow Transport Secretary. We are talking about renationalising? | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
report says Buchan bring back part of the network into public | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
ownership without buying out and recreating British Rail. You would | :25:32. | :25:39. | |
not want to do that! We have made no decisions as shed. If I consider | :25:39. | :25:48. | |
this to be an interesting contribution. -- as yet. Passengers | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
are being clobbered with the highest fares in Europe at the same | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
time we are putting in �4 billion of subsidy into the system. The | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
report says the fragmentation has costs of up to �1.2 billion the | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
year. That ought to be used instead of dealing with the preparation | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
into running the services. We could cut fares if that were to be the | :26:12. | :26:22. | |
:26:22. | :26:22. | ||
place - us. Can you legislate to keep the system as was? -- the case. | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
Labour Party policy is to say we will cap the fare rises and remove | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
the capacity the current government has given back to increase fares by | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
more pampered cap. We have said we would do that. The fragmentation of | :26:35. | :26:43. | |
the industry is costing �1.2 billion a year. What would you do | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
with the companies that are currently running the train | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
operating services? The report suggests this is not about going am | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
buy-out contracts. The franchises are sometimes handed back. | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
Sometimes they do not work properly. They come to an end. At the moment, | :27:01. | :27:09. | |
the East Coast Main Line, one of the most proper -- profitable lines, | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
is being run by a non-profit-making company. Do you think the rises in | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
fez up a huge issue? Rail fares in Britain have been going up in real | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
terms since privatisation. If you are a key meeting in any part of | :27:26. | :27:33. | |
the country, you are effectively being taxed. -- are commuting. | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
Fragmentation does cost. There has been quite a lot of innovation | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
being brought into the rail industry. And the investment and | :27:43. | :27:53. | |
the money that comes with it. have state ownership of the | :27:53. | :28:00. | |
railways. It is just not owned by the UK government. I wondered | :28:00. | :28:07. | |
whether there might be a feature - we are talking about the John Lewis | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
model. -- a future. It would be interesting to run the railway | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
system like this. Employees would have a stake in running the system. | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
It is a public service. Whether bringing it back into the kind of | :28:22. | :28:30. | |
public ownership we saw in Britain 25, 30 years ago, is the answer, I | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
think would be prettied of a book to sell. -- pretty difficult to | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
sell. We are looking at whether the not the dividend model could be | :28:43. | :28:48. |