04/07/2012 Daily Politics


04/07/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn present live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good morning. This is The Daily Politics. Who and what will the

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banking scandal hit next? Yesterday, it claimed its biggest scalp, Bob

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Diamond. He claimed he was hounded out by politicians, regulators and

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the Bank of England. This afternoon, it could be payback time, when he

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gives evidence before the select committee in the Commons. We can

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expect other parts of the establishment, not least Labour

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politicians, in government at the time, to be engulfed. We can expect

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events in the Square Mile to dominate PMQs, with David Cameron

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and David Miliband are attempting to make political capital. We will

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have all the action. Britain's biggest rail enthusiast will be

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telling us why a High Speed 2 should not hit the buffers. We must

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build High Speed 2 - simple. And we will be discussing why matter

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matters. All that to come before one o'clock today. And a very

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special welcome to the new director general of the BBC. He is a very

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nice man. A very, very very nice man, I would say. He would be even

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nicer if he could get the wi-fi to work in the studio. Anyway, Mr

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Redwood's, welcome aboard. You have no idea what is in store for you!

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Anyway, with us today, two beams of parliamentary protons that will

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hurtle around the studio at close to the speed of light. I speak of

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course of Grant Shapps, the Housing Minister, and Caroline Flint, the

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Shadow Energy Secretary. But first, from the origins of the universe to

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the masters of the universe... Did you see what I did there? Bob

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Diamond resigned yesterday as chief executive of Barclays. Mr diamond

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will be interrogated, at least I think that is the word, by the

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Treasury Select Committee this afternoon. How did we get to this,

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Jo? The crisis began last Wednesday, when the FSA handed down a record

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�290 million fine to Barclays for attempting to manipulate the LIBOR

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rate by lying about the interest they were paying on loans. Notes

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taken by Bob Diamond show that during a telephone conversation in

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2008, the Deputy Governor of the Bank of England allegedly

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encouraged Barclays to lower their submissions for the LIBOR. Just

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after that, the submissions plummeted. The fixing is thought to

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be much more widespread than just Barclays. Other institutions will

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be under the spotlight as well. At the weekend, the chairman of

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Barclays, Marcus Agius, was the first victim of the crisis. He was

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joined yesterday by chief executive Bob Diamond, who announced he, too,

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was resigning following pressure from politicians and from the Bank

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of England. David Cameron initially ruled about a snap inquiry, but

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changed his mind this week, announcing a parliamentary inquiry

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into rate rigging, to begin as soon as possible. But Labour says this

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is not enough, it wants a broad, judge-led inquiry. MPs will vote on

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the decision tomorrow. We will be joined in a moment by the business

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editor of the Times. And here in Westminster, we will be joined by a

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Labour's John mam, a member of the Treasury Select Committee. He has

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taken time out from preparing for the session this afternoon -- John

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Mann -- his questioners for Bob Diamond. What will be your first

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question? What is the difference between Barclays and dead fish?

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Both Worton from the head. The bank will go unless this rotten core is

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sorted out. So, you're looking for a cull of all the top people at

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Barclays? The entire culture of the bank has to change. But what do you

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want to find out from Mr diamond? want to find out why the culture

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was there, what were the other banks doing on this, because he is

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in a position to name other banks? And I want to hear from him what he

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thinks should happen to make sure that there are proper sanctions to

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stop him and others doing this again. Will you be asking him why

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the Bank of England gave him a very strong steer to lowball the LIBOR

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rate? That is one issue which will come up. It is a big issue,

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particularly for your party. It is a big issue for everyone. You were

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in power at the time. I can assure you, next week we will be calling

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in the Bank of England and others about this. What about Gordon

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Brown? We will be more than happy to call in politicians are as

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necessary. Whoever needs to be called in... I am just trying to

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work out who you will call in. First, we have got to hear what Bob

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Diamond has to say, and then, without question, we will bring in

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the Bank of England. But this record fine was up until July 2008,

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and Bob Diamond will not get away this afternoon with shifting the

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blame elsewhere. He led this bank, and this is all about what happened

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for three years. There will be criminal prosecutions as well as

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huge civil cases. This has got enormous implications for this bank

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and all British banks. You would appear to be curiously incurious

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about wanting to know who the senior Whitehall officials were,

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who were urging the Bank of England to urge Barclays to reduce the

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LIBOR rate. Don't worry, we will call in everyone who needs to be

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called in. I am certain the Bank of England will be there. But one

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thing at a time. We do not want the politicking to get in front of

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sorting out the crisis in British banking. The entire existence of

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Barclays is at stake. That is the complaint against the Government,

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that you're playing politics with this. It is quite clear that from

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Cameron and the Chancellor down, you have Brown, Bulls and the

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others in your sights. It is a political revenge match. We need to

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find out how far it went and whether indeed it was directed from

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Whitehall, at least to some extent. All of those questions need to be

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answered, and we need to do something about it. We have got a

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Banking bill going through the House of Commons at the moment. We

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can be legislating within six months. The issue for the Tories is,

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who were the senior Whitehall figures? The one that we have been

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briefed on non-stop would be that question. I don't think the

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Treasury committee would want to sidestep that issue. But we know

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that the other banks are all being investigated, it is their turn next,

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there is no mystery in this at all. Which is why we have said that it

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should be a joint parliamentary committee of both Houses, which is

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why we want them to report quickly, and that is why we want to change

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the legislation, so it cannot happen again. Let me go to the

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business editor of the Times now. Can you hear me? No? There is a

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danger that this is going to rebound badly on Labour. I think we

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have been clear that we made mistakes in government. Whilst we

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brought in regulation, more than we had in the 1980s, it clearly was

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not enough. The truth is that all politicians have to answer for that.

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At the time, George Osborne was saying we were being too tough. I

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have to say in response to your question to John earlier about

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Labour politicians at this time, Alastair Darling, Ed Balls, Lord

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minor and the Baroness have been absolutely categoric, they did not

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have conversations... They have not been absolutely categoric. No, she

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is absolutely clear that they did nothing to have conversations

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regarding meddling with the rate of LIBOR. Would you agree that if

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Labour politicians or their advisers were found to be complicit

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in the low balling of LIBOR, that would be a huge scandal? All the

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people I have mentioned have categorically said that was not the

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case. They have not. If we found out that they were not telling the

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truth and Labour was found to be low balling LIBOR, would that not

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be incredibly serious? This is why Labour has said we need a judge-led

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inquiry, which has more disclosure powers than a parliamentary inquiry

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would have. That would mean everybody concerned, including the

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people that John has mentioned, a judge-led inquiry, like we have

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seen with Leveson, can get to information which other forms of

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inquiry cannot. Politicians, bankers, regulators, should then

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come before that board to answer questions. Let me see if we can get

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through to the Times now, we usually get through to Baghdad

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quite quickly! If you were on the Treasury Select Committee this

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afternoon, what would you be asking Bob Diamond? I think you would want

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to know whether Paul Tucker told him who are these senior figures

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within Whitehall actually were. The ones that told him to lowball LIBOR,

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that is the key question. But it is unlikely, is it not, that Paul

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Tucker would have told him? He makes it clear from the

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contemporaneous note that he is getting a lot of calls from a very

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high level within Whitehall about Barclays' LIBOR submissions being

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too high. We know that immediately after that conversation, Barclays'

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LIBOR submissions fell off a cliff, something had happened. Exactly. It

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is quite clear, as we now know from the documents that Barclays

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released yesterday ahead of the select committee today, the person

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who was running the rates desk at Barclays Capital at the time, Jerry

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del Missier, assumed from the e- mail he had received from his boss,

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Bob Diamond, that the Bank of England had given the go-ahead to

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submit lower LIBOR rates than had been the case. Is it your view that,

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assuming the contemporaneous note is accurate, and we have no reason

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to believe it was not accurate, it was done at the time - is it your

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view that it was government policy at the time to make sure that LIBOR

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stayed as low as possible? I think we have to go back to the events of

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October 2008. Quite frankly, everybody would have been doing

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this, as Bob Diamond makes clear. That is clearly what was discussed

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between him and Paul Tucker at that time. Bob Diamond made it clear

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that everybody was low balling LIBOR rates, it was not just

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Barclays. So, would that have been done with the connivance of

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Whitehall? Who knows? But it should probably not be a hanging offence

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in any case. Potentially the alternative would have been a

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collapse of the banking system. Don't forget, Lehman's had gone

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under in the state's one month earlier, right had needed to go in

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to rescue HBOS in a merger, and it is quite possible that had the

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market taken fright, there could have been a run on Barclays as well.

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So I think it is the lesser of two evils, to be honest. The LIBOR rate,

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the London Interbank Offered Rate, is very important, because it sets

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the rate at which banks borrow from each other, and what banks borrow

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from each other then determines the rates they charge us. It is an

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important thing, and the whole world, other interest rates, take

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their lead from the LIBOR rate. But if other banks were low balling

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LIBOR, and Barclays wasn't, because its rates had been market-driven,

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and if Bob Diamond gets a steer from the Treasury and the Bank of

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England that they should fall in line with the other banks, then

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government and regulators are complicit. Yes, they absolutely are.

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Without question. It is a series of IFS, but absolutely, which is a

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major issue. But let's not forget the other major issue, which is

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Barclays traders under Bob Diamond profiting by fiddling the rates.

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Those are two issues, both huge issues, we should not ignore either

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of them. Quite right, there was a separate issue happening earlier of

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the traders themselves low balling, or raising, LIBOR, depending on how

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their books were closing at the end of the day. Is it your contention,

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the contention of the Government, that senior Labour figures were

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involved in this? We simply do not know the answer to that. We need to

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wait until this inquiry has taken place. If you look at the notes, it

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makes it very clear that senior figures within Whitehall were

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responsible - by the that is politicians or officials, we do not

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know. We do not have all the notes. The Bank of England refused to give

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the notes to me today. How could they do that, John? Do you want me

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to have a word with them? I will have a word with Mervyn and Paul

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Tucker. Ed Balls has been categorical, that he had nothing to

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do with it whatsoever. Let's just run a club of him now and see what

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he had to say this morning. At no point did I have any conversation

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with Mr Tucker at all, at any time when I was a Treasury minister or

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adviser, or subsequently to that, when I was a Cabinet minister. I

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had no conversation with anybody about the LIBOR market during any

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of those periods, and at no point in any of the time when I was a

:15:25.:15:35.
:15:35.:15:38.

minister or adviser were concerns That's pretty clear, Grant Shapps?

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He's one of the individuals. I don't know. He was not in office at

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the time. Let's not try to put words into anyone's mouth. We don't

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know it's the case. It's correct to have an inquiry. What we do know

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from the note is that senior figures within Whitehall were

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putting pressure on. George Osborne has thrown mud around and hoped

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that it will stick. Actually, that is really unhelpful. That's why we

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do need something which has some authority and why a judge-led

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inquiry means everyone is held to account. Chris Leslie on 6th March

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asked Mark Holborn about LIBOR. He said nothing. There are a series of

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questions to eke out what your government did or did not do in the

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last two years, when it's been your watch, to actually get a grip on

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some of the situations. We all have to, as politicians, take

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responsibility. Do you think the Conservatives have been

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manipulating LIBOR? No, but what they may have done is avoid some of

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the issues, where we have mechanisims and clearly at Barclays

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and others, despite the regulations, they've broken those and stepped

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across the line. We all, as politicians, have to deal with this,

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because whether it's MPs with expenses, whether it's the media

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and the banks, these are institutions that we have to work

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to make sure the public trust. agree. One thing we know for

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certain, one of the first things that Gordon Brown did was to create

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the tripartite system of regulation, which made it very, very difficult,

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whether the FSA, the Bank of England or the Treasury, who were

:17:25.:17:29.

doing the regulation in the City and that's where a lot of the

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problems come from. Ian King, Bob Diamond, love him or loath him, he

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did create the only decent global investment bank Britain's ever had,

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all the rest have been Pygmies. The only one to take on the Americans,

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will we miss him? I think he will. He's an undoubted talent. He'll be

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snapped up by someone on Wall Street fairly quickly, should he

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wish to continue working. He's a man who put Barclays on the world

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stage. A lot of people in Wall Street really respected him for

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that. Also, respected the name of Barclays in the process. Thank you

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very much. I'm glad we got the communications there to the distant

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time zone that is Wapping. Thank you very much for taking time out

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John, we look forward to this afternoon. I've Now, in January

:18:22.:18:24.

last year, Caroline Spelman announced Government plans to sell

:18:24.:18:30.

of parts of the Uk's public forests. Booked my seat. The announcement

:18:30.:18:33.

sparked outrage and over 500,000 people signed a petition calling on

:18:33.:18:35.

the Government to scrap the plans. The Environment Secretary spent

:18:35.:18:39.

weeks defending the idea, but what a difference a few days make. The

:18:39.:18:42.

panel set up by the Government to look into the policy published

:18:42.:18:44.

their final report today, saying that public forests must not be

:18:44.:18:51.

sold off. I'm sorry, we got this one wrong, but we have listened to

:18:51.:18:57.

people's concerns. It's quite clear from the early responses to the

:18:57.:19:00.

consultation that the public and many honourable members are not

:19:00.:19:10.

happy with the proposals we set out. The panel published their report

:19:10.:19:14.

today, saying that they must not be sold off. The Government says it

:19:14.:19:16.

accepts the recommendations and this morning confirmed it would

:19:16.:19:24.

halt plans to set off state-owned forests. The Right Reverend James

:19:24.:19:33.

Jones, Bishop of Liverpool, headed the report and he joins us now.

:19:33.:19:35.

Trees are essential to life and part of common heritage. People

:19:35.:19:39.

love the forest, but what we have to do now is value them for the

:19:39.:19:43.

other things that they give us, clean air, clean water, carbon

:19:43.:19:46.

storage and protecting our wildlife. Couldn't that have been done and

:19:46.:19:51.

I'm sure many would agree, in private ownership too? It's not

:19:51.:19:58.

being done. 82% is in private ownership. Only 81% -- only 18% is

:19:58.:20:03.

public forests but they deliver over 40% of the access and 60% of

:20:03.:20:08.

the timber supply. That's a remarkable testimony to the public

:20:08.:20:10.

forest. It's quite a small proportion. People forget when

:20:11.:20:15.

there was the row, it's only one fifth, I think it works out. Who

:20:15.:20:22.

will pay in terms of the future upkeep? It will be the taxpayer to

:20:22.:20:29.

keep them going? We are talking about �22 million. Nine kilometres

:20:29.:20:33.

of carriageway costs �160 million. It's a no-brainer by comparison.

:20:33.:20:37.

What we are saying is if there are public benefits then that's a

:20:37.:20:41.

legitimate call on the public purse. Until we find another way of paying

:20:41.:20:48.

for them and the Government is set up two important committees, the

:20:48.:20:50.

Natural Capital Committee and a Task Force and they are working out

:20:50.:20:53.

how you might pay for the public benefits. It's difficult to put a

:20:53.:20:59.

price on it, isn't it, in terms of the value? It's hard to do when you

:20:59.:21:03.

are talking about forests? course it is, but the moment your

:21:03.:21:07.

home is flooded, you'll be asking questions why it is happening and

:21:07.:21:11.

trees are an important protection. Grant Shapps, do you think it was

:21:11.:21:16.

all a waste of time putting forward the proposals? Was it misguided or

:21:16.:21:22.

misconstrued? It taught ministers a lesson that I've certainly taken

:21:22.:21:25.

forward, which is be careful what you put in the consultation. It was

:21:25.:21:29.

one of the options in consultation. It was massively and clearly

:21:29.:21:34.

unpopular and I think you have to think twice before you list a set

:21:34.:21:38.

of options, even if it's not going to ever be the one that goes

:21:38.:21:41.

through. The other to say is it was never about money. Everyone thought

:21:41.:21:45.

it was, but in fact it wasn't. It's not for the public benefit that

:21:45.:21:50.

comes from it, it's not an enormous sum of money and nothing to do with

:21:50.:21:52.

keeping that department's budgets right. It wasn't required for that

:21:52.:21:55.

reason. It was just looking at whether there were better ways to

:21:56.:21:59.

manage the forests and in fact I think the report today is terrific.

:21:59.:22:04.

It's got all the right ideas in it and it's smart stuff to follow.

:22:04.:22:09.

you think lessons were learnt, but was the consultation wrong, or was

:22:09.:22:14.

it just that there was such an outcry about the idea of so-called

:22:14.:22:18.

privatising the forests? It's an emotive issue and it's clear to me

:22:18.:22:22.

that sometimes the Commission do need to sell bits to buy others and

:22:22.:22:27.

I think you reflect on your report today. It's very emotive. People

:22:27.:22:33.

get enormous benefit and pleasure from the forests and in terms of it

:22:33.:22:36.

being instructional, it makes me think carefully about any of the

:22:36.:22:40.

options that I outline in consultations to make sure I would

:22:40.:22:43.

genuinely be happy with any of the ones that came out the other end.

:22:43.:22:46.

What happens now? You have got the two reports or the two studies

:22:46.:22:51.

being done. When will we hear from them? Caroline Spelman and I think

:22:52.:22:55.

she should be given credit for doing the right thing and putting

:22:55.:23:00.

it out to an independent panel. She has today said she will respond in

:23:00.:23:04.

January. We are having a stakeholders' meeting and 100

:23:04.:23:09.

people signed up to this. A huge public debate needs to continue

:23:09.:23:13.

about the value of woods and forests and I hope the Government

:23:13.:23:16.

will respond in the light of that debate. Thank you very much. Next,

:23:16.:23:19.

a media power couple, never off the front pages and inseparable for the

:23:19.:23:23.

past five years. Style icons to millions. I know what you're

:23:23.:23:27.

thinking, but, no, I'm not talking about me and Jo, I am, of course,

:23:27.:23:31.

describing the fairytale marriage of Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes. But

:23:31.:23:34.

the dream came crashing down over the weekend as Katie Holmes filed

:23:34.:23:39.

for divorce citing irreconcilable differences. With millions at stake

:23:39.:23:42.

you'd think their lawyers would be having a field day. But they don't

:23:42.:23:45.

care about the houses, the cars and the shoes. The only possession they

:23:45.:23:48.

really care about is gaining custody of their prized Daily

:23:48.:23:51.

Politics mug. But if you want your own mug, you don't need fancy

:23:51.:23:54.

lawyers, you just need to enter our Guess the Year competition. We'll

:23:54.:23:58.

remind you how to enter in a minute, but let's see if you can remember

:23:58.:24:08.
:24:08.:24:27.

when this happened. # Panic on the streets of London...

:24:27.:24:35.

# We did it calmly and cordially. # I wondered to myself... #

:24:35.:24:39.

# Don't leave me this way # I can't survive

:24:39.:24:49.
:24:49.:24:50.

# I can't stay alive... # # System addict

:24:50.:25:00.
:25:00.:25:05.

# I never can get enough... # # We don't have to take our clothes

:25:05.:25:13.

# To have a good time, oh, no # We could dance and party all

:25:13.:25:23.

night... # # We're absolute beginners... #

:25:23.:25:33.
:25:33.:25:44.

There's nothing delicate about the To be in with a chance of winning

:25:44.:25:53.

the mug send your answer to our e- mail address: you can see the full

:25:53.:26:00.

terms and conditions on the website. It's coming up to midday. We'll

:26:00.:26:07.

look at Big Ben. There it is behind me. For those of you who haven't

:26:07.:26:11.

switched across, there will be a lot of drums across the Thames,

:26:11.:26:14.

because it's the Prime Minister's questions, the Bob Diamond edition.

:26:14.:26:19.

Nick is with us. It will be one way or another, won't it? Absolutely,

:26:19.:26:23.

because there's a who done it in terms of Barclays. Yes, we know

:26:23.:26:27.

that there's an issue of who did it in the bank and who knew. Yes

:26:27.:26:34.

werbgs know thanks to a memo yesterday, that he was suggesting

:26:34.:26:37.

that the Bank of England were pressureising Barclays to sort out

:26:38.:26:41.

the LIBOR. But we also know that the same memo says that senior

:26:41.:26:46.

Whitehall figures, not named, not specified whether ministers or

:26:46.:26:49.

officials, were putting pressure on the Bank of England to put pressure

:26:49.:26:53.

on Barclays to do it. From a high level? What is intriguing is the

:26:53.:26:58.

speed with which people have been rushing to the cameras, who were in

:26:58.:27:02.

the last Labour Government to say, whoever did it it wasn't me.

:27:02.:27:07.

Alistair Darling says, "It wasn't me." I don't imagine anybody in the

:27:07.:27:12.

treasure could have done it, that's what he is saying. Lord Myners was

:27:12.:27:18.

saying, "I didn't know anything about it." Baroness Vadera in the

:27:18.:27:22.

House of Lords, was effectively Gordon Brown's fix-it woman for the

:27:22.:27:25.

City. Former banker who gets enormous credit from officials, we

:27:25.:27:30.

ought to say, for sorting out many of the problems when the credit

:27:30.:27:34.

crunch happened in 2008. She said, "Yes, I was involved in all sorts

:27:34.:27:37.

of conversations about the LIBOR rate, but those were policy

:27:37.:27:40.

decisions, trying to make credit work in the economy. They certainly

:27:40.:27:47.

weren't about rigging the system." In other words, the Conservative

:27:47.:27:51.

Party are saying, where was Ed Balls in all of this? He regards

:27:51.:27:54.

this as a cheap smear. They regard it as a legitimate series of

:27:54.:27:58.

questions about a guy who was very close to Gordon Brown and knew

:27:58.:28:02.

where a lot of the bodies were buried, because he was a former

:28:02.:28:05.

City minister. When you see them clash at Prime Minister's questions,

:28:05.:28:09.

in a sense you can almost forget the details unless you love them.

:28:09.:28:14.

What is going on is a battle for credibility and reputation. The

:28:14.:28:18.

Tories want to destroy Labour. They want to make the debt crisis the

:28:18.:28:23.

equivalent of the winter of discontent at the end of the 70's.

:28:23.:28:28.

Very high stakes? Indeed. If we remind ourselves of the context at

:28:28.:28:33.

the time in the autumn of 2008, this was a Government and a Bank of

:28:33.:28:38.

England that had basically dined out on cheap credit. The cheap

:28:38.:28:44.

credit had become the motif of the authorities and of the Government.

:28:44.:28:48.

It is also time when the interbank markets, the lending between banks

:28:48.:28:55.

was in danger of drying up. At the two together and it stands to

:28:55.:29:01.

reason that Government wanted to keep LIBOR low? That that was the

:29:01.:29:06.

policy? Absolutely. The great fear, what we tend to think of was a

:29:06.:29:10.

banks crisis was a credit crunch. The fear was that the banks

:29:10.:29:13.

couldn't lend to each other and therefore couldn't lend to you and

:29:13.:29:17.

me and businesses to keep them alive or get them to expand. Yes,

:29:18.:29:22.

of course, Government, Treasury, Bank of England, banks wanted to

:29:22.:29:27.

find a way to bring the costs down in order to get more money out of

:29:27.:29:30.

the door. People keep saying that is different from rigging it.

:29:30.:29:37.

Rigging it in order for some rich bankers to say, "We've made a fast

:29:37.:29:42.

buck. I'll do a favour." As in one of the e-mails. These things are

:29:42.:29:47.

different. Remember, there were two kinds of rigging of this key

:29:47.:29:50.

interest rate. There was the earlier rigging by Barclays'

:29:50.:29:53.

traders, to make their books look better, to bank a profit at the end

:29:54.:29:58.

of the day. For themselves. Yes. A lot of people think not only have

:29:58.:30:02.

the traders been fired, but a lot of them think it's criminal and

:30:02.:30:09.

they should be collared. That's one set. That is different from the

:30:09.:30:16.

bank committing a LIBOR rate. Again, we had a Government and bank that

:30:16.:30:19.

wanted to keep the rate low and you had others that were obliging. The

:30:19.:30:23.

one that didn't was Barclays, that set the rates by the markets. And

:30:23.:30:27.

suddenly they are lent on to say why don't you fall in line with

:30:27.:30:31.

everybody else. Critically, Barclays, but boasting at the time.

:30:31.:30:34.

They said they didn't need Government help. Over to the

:30:34.:30:44.
:30:44.:30:53.

I'm sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the

:30:53.:30:56.

three British servicemen who were killed in Afghanistan over the

:30:56.:31:01.

weekend. We send our heartfelt condolences to the families of the

:31:01.:31:04.

people who were killed in this tragic, appalling incident. They

:31:04.:31:08.

will never be forgotten by our nation. This morning I had meetings

:31:08.:31:11.

with ministerial colleagues and others, and I shall have further

:31:11.:31:20.

I'm sure at the whole House will want to associate ourselves with

:31:20.:31:25.

the Prime Minister's remarks, as well as sending our deepest

:31:25.:31:28.

condolences to the families of the crew from RAF Lossiemouth who were

:31:28.:31:33.

lost earlier in the week. Mr Speaker, food prices rose by more

:31:33.:31:41.

than 4% between March last year and this year. I understand why, so,

:31:41.:31:44.

can the Prime Minister spare me the lecture and tell the House what he

:31:44.:31:52.

is doing about food inflation. I join the honourable leader -- the

:31:52.:31:56.

Honourable Lady about what she said about the tragic accident involving

:31:56.:32:00.

the crew from RAF Lossiemouth. The circumstances remain uncertain,

:32:00.:32:04.

that it is clearly a very serious incident. More details will be

:32:04.:32:09.

released by the RAF in due course. It is a reminder of the risk that

:32:09.:32:13.

our service personnel take not only one on active service, but when

:32:13.:32:19.

undergoing vital training for that service. On the issue of inflation,

:32:19.:32:22.

with food, I would make a point that inflation is now falling in

:32:22.:32:26.

this country, which is extremely good news. In terms of food

:32:26.:32:30.

inflation, it is obviously absolutely vital that the prices

:32:30.:32:34.

faced by people in the shops are not too hard on their budget. But

:32:34.:32:37.

the way to keep inflation down is to have a responsible Monetary

:32:37.:32:47.
:32:47.:32:54.

Policy, which is what we have. Nicholas Soames! Mr Speaker, would

:32:54.:33:00.

my Right Honourable Friend agree with me that whilst these serious

:33:00.:33:04.

banking difficulties must be dealt with, it is vital that we retain

:33:05.:33:08.

the central importance of the City of London, in recognising that any

:33:08.:33:16.

reforms must be proportionate, and not damage such a brilliant asset.

:33:16.:33:20.

I think my Honourable Friend makes an important point. We have got to

:33:20.:33:24.

get to the bottom of what happened, but in doing so, we should bear in

:33:24.:33:28.

mind the remarks of Richard Lambert, who ran the CBI successfully for

:33:28.:33:31.

many years, and who carried out an investigation for the party

:33:31.:33:36.

opposite, and he said that the LIBOR scandal means that the

:33:36.:33:40.

required changes have to be tougher, which is the argument for a short,

:33:40.:33:44.

sharp enquiry. Going back to square one would be a serious mistake, he

:33:44.:33:49.

says. Nothing could be more urgent than a stable banking system, he

:33:49.:33:52.

says. We must get to the truth, but we should listen to these expert

:33:52.:34:01.

opinions as well. Mr Speaker, Cannes join the Prime Minister in

:34:01.:34:11.
:34:11.:34:14.

paying tribute to the three servicemen who died in the most

:34:14.:34:18.

tragic of circumstances. Our hearts go out to their family and friends.

:34:18.:34:22.

I also join the Prime Minister in the remarks he made about the

:34:22.:34:25.

incident at RAF Lossiemouth. The banking scandal has revealed

:34:26.:34:29.

traders cheating, the misselling of insurance to small businesses, and

:34:29.:34:34.

it comes on top of other scandals in the banking system and the

:34:34.:34:37.

continuing bonus merry-go-round. How can the Prime Minister convince

:34:38.:34:40.

people that a parliamentary inquiry is a better way of restoring

:34:40.:34:47.

people's confidence than a full, independent, forensic and open,

:34:47.:34:51.

judge-led inquiry? First of all, let me say, on the substance of the

:34:51.:34:55.

issue, there is no disagreement between us. This banking scandal is

:34:55.:35:00.

appalling. It is outrageous, frankly, that homeowners may have

:35:00.:35:04.

paid higher mortgage rates, and small businesses may have paid

:35:04.:35:08.

higher interest rates, because of what was probably illegal activity

:35:08.:35:12.

in the City. People want to know that crime in our banks and

:35:12.:35:15.

financial services will be pursued and punished like crime on the

:35:15.:35:23.

streets. As well as that, I think people want rapid action to make

:35:23.:35:27.

sure this cannot happen again. In my view, the most important thing

:35:27.:35:31.

about any inquiry is that it is swift and incisive, set up as fast

:35:31.:35:35.

as possible, gets going as fast as possible, reports as fast as

:35:35.:35:41.

possible, transparent and open at every stage. That is why I favour a

:35:41.:35:44.

republic, parliamentary inquiry rather than a judge-led inquiry. I

:35:44.:35:50.

want us to legislate on this, starting next year. Mr Speaker, I

:35:50.:35:53.

understand his concerns about speed, but there are concerns also that

:35:53.:35:57.

the inquiry which is being talk about is far too narrow, focusing

:35:57.:36:01.

just on the scandal of Flyball, when we know the problems go much

:36:01.:36:04.

wider regarding the culture and practices in the City. But I

:36:04.:36:09.

believe there is a way forward we can agree upon, a to part, judge-

:36:09.:36:15.

led inquiry, which is instructed to report by Christmas on LIBOR, and

:36:15.:36:19.

the second part of it reporting over 12 months regarding the much

:36:19.:36:24.

wider area of the culture of the industry. That satisfies his

:36:24.:36:28.

requirement for speed, but also the necessary requirement to look at

:36:28.:36:35.

the wider practices of the City - will he agree to my proposal?

:36:35.:36:38.

always look and listen carefully to proposals from all sides of the

:36:38.:36:43.

House. On the issue of the structure of banking and the future

:36:43.:36:48.

of banking, of course, we set up the vicar's inquiry, which reported,

:36:48.:36:54.

and we are going to implement the Vickers Report, which will for the

:36:54.:36:57.

first time separate investment banking from retail banking. That

:36:57.:37:01.

is a major step forward. Secondly, the parliamentary inquiry we are

:37:01.:37:05.

proposing is wider than he says, it is going to look at the culture of

:37:05.:37:13.

banking. Thirdly, clearly, the Serious Fraud Office are still

:37:13.:37:18.

considering whether to launch a criminal investigation. While that

:37:18.:37:21.

is happening, there are dangers in opting for a judge-led inquiry,

:37:21.:37:27.

which might not be able to get under way. So, as I say, if you

:37:27.:37:31.

want to do this as fast as possible, to get action as fast as possible,

:37:31.:37:36.

I think the way we suggest his right. But we clearly heard the

:37:36.:37:40.

vote in the House of Lords last night, where they voted against a

:37:40.:37:44.

public inquiry. We have made time available on Thursday, which has

:37:44.:37:48.

not happened before, for an opposition motion to be debated and

:37:48.:37:53.

voted upon, and then a government motion to be debated and voted upon.

:37:53.:37:56.

Frankly, what matters more than the process is the substance, getting

:37:56.:38:02.

on with it. So, I hope we get acceptable results on Thursday.

:38:02.:38:06.

Speaker, we were in a jacket the same position a year ago, when

:38:06.:38:12.

initially he rejected the idea of a judge-led inquiry into the press

:38:12.:38:18.

scandal -- we were in exactly the same position -- where he changed

:38:18.:38:22.

his mind. He said, I do not believe there is any better process than an

:38:22.:38:27.

inquiry led by a judge. He went on - with the whole thing pursued by a

:38:27.:38:31.

team of barristers who are expert at finding out the facts. Mr

:38:31.:38:35.

Speaker, why is it right to have this judge-led approach to the

:38:35.:38:40.

scandal in the press, but wrong for the scandal in the banks? I think

:38:40.:38:44.

there is a profound difference between the circumstances of the

:38:44.:38:48.

Leveson Inquiry, and the circumstances with this inquiry. Of

:38:48.:38:53.

course, the Leveson Inquiry followed a whole series of

:38:53.:38:58.

unsuccessful and failed inquiries. On this occasion, we have had a

:38:58.:39:02.

very successful inquiry from the Department of Justice in America,

:39:02.:39:04.

and the Financial Services Authority, which have uncovered the

:39:04.:39:09.

wrongdoing. Now, what is required is swift inquiry, swift action and

:39:09.:39:12.

swift legislation, and that is what you will get from this government.

:39:12.:39:20.

Mr Speaker, I don't think the Prime Minister has understood the depths

:39:20.:39:29.

of public concern, the depths of the lack of confidence there has

:39:29.:39:35.

been. He says that the inquiry he proposes can be completed within

:39:35.:39:40.

essentially four months, but that it can go as wide as it likes. It

:39:40.:39:44.

is simply not realistic. I say to him that I have listened to his

:39:44.:39:51.

concerns and I have proposed a way forward. I ask him again, a two-

:39:52.:39:55.

part inquiry, with a judge, completing on a turntable set by

:39:55.:40:00.

the Chancellor, by Christmas, on LIBOR, and then looking at the

:40:00.:40:06.

wider issues about the culture and practices of the City. I do

:40:06.:40:09.

understand the public concern about this issue, which is why I want us

:40:09.:40:12.

to get on with it. Frankly, it is this government which is going to

:40:12.:40:20.

legislate to split the bank -- to split the banks, as the Vickers

:40:20.:40:24.

Report suggested. It is this government which has introduced the

:40:24.:40:28.

bank Levy, and we have also introduced the most transparent

:40:28.:40:32.

regime for pay and bonuses in in the financial centre anywhere in

:40:32.:40:38.

the world. As evidence that this House of Commons is getting on with

:40:38.:40:42.

it, we're going to see Bob Diamond questioned upstairs by the Treasury

:40:42.:40:45.

Select Committee, this afternoon. I would say to the Honourable

:40:45.:40:49.

Gentleman, we are having a vote in the House of Commons tomorrow, a

:40:49.:40:54.

vote on his motion, and one on the government for ocean. Clearly, if

:40:54.:40:58.

the opposition motion wins, there will be a full, independent public

:40:58.:41:02.

inquiry. I would urge him to say now that if the government motion

:41:02.:41:10.

is carried, he will co-operate with a full parliamentary inquiry.

:41:10.:41:16.

Speaker, I do not think the Prime Minister gets it about the depth of

:41:16.:41:25.

public concern. I hope he will reconsider his position. But he

:41:25.:41:29.

mentions the Vickers Report, and he says they are implementing it. I

:41:29.:41:34.

say this to him - the Vickers Report said this about one

:41:34.:41:37.

important issue which has come out in the last couple of weeks, about

:41:37.:41:41.

the way in which high street banks had sold dodgy product to small

:41:41.:41:44.

businesses. They said that should never be allowed to happen again.

:41:44.:41:49.

But after lobbying by the banks, the Government rejected this very

:41:49.:41:52.

basic recommendation of the Vickers Report. In the light of the recent

:41:52.:41:57.

scandal, with small businesses damaged, will he know U-turn and

:41:57.:42:02.

implement Vickers Report in full? First of all, I am not going to get

:42:02.:42:06.

a lecture in getting it from a party that was in office for 13

:42:06.:42:16.
:42:16.:42:16.

years, when all of these things took place. On his specific

:42:16.:42:22.

question about the Vickers Report, let me repeat, this inquiry was set

:42:22.:42:27.

up by this government, and it will be implemented by this government.

:42:27.:42:33.

Under it, complex derivatives will be included in the ring-fencing for

:42:33.:42:39.

investment banking, they will not be part of the retail banks. But

:42:39.:42:43.

let me say this to him - if he wants a quick resolution to this,

:42:43.:42:47.

he must accept the outcome of a vote in the House of Commons. I am

:42:47.:42:56.

prepared to do that, why isn't he? Order! Government backbenchers who

:42:56.:43:01.

have been here for some years ought to have grasped by now that it his

:43:01.:43:07.

time for them to pipe down and try to be good boys if they can.

:43:07.:43:11.

Speaker, if he wants a history lesson, this is what he told the

:43:11.:43:17.

City of London on 20th March 2008 - as a free-marketeer by conviction,

:43:17.:43:22.

it will not surprise you to hear me say that the problem of the past

:43:22.:43:32.
:43:32.:43:45.

decade is too much regulation. Doesn't it say it all about the

:43:45.:43:51.

double standards? And whenever these scandals happened, he is slow

:43:51.:43:54.

to act, and he stands up for the wrong people. The question people

:43:54.:43:59.

are asking is, who will act in the national interest rather than the

:43:59.:44:06.

party interest? His is a party bankrolled by the banks. If he

:44:06.:44:11.

fails to order a judge-led inquiry, people will come to one conclusion

:44:11.:44:21.
:44:21.:44:21.

- he simply cannot act in the national interest. I have to say,

:44:21.:44:31.
:44:31.:44:33.

Mr Speaker, everybody can see what is happening here. Order! Members

:44:33.:44:38.

must come down. I said it to government backbenchers, I now say

:44:38.:44:43.

it to opposition backbenchers - that the answer be heard. The party

:44:43.:44:46.

opposite want to talk about absolutely everything apart from

:44:46.:44:56.
:44:56.:44:57.

their record of 13 years. I have to say, Mr Speaker, we may have found

:44:57.:45:00.

the Higgs boson particle, but Labour have not found a sense of

:45:00.:45:10.
:45:10.:45:16.

Today is hugely significant for British scientists with the

:45:16.:45:20.

announcement of the Higgs Boson discovery. 6,000 scientists worked

:45:20.:45:25.

on it, 700 from the UK, with a major contribution from the north-

:45:25.:45:32.

west, a constituent of mine, head of particle physics at Liverpool

:45:32.:45:36.

university led the ATLAS. Can the Prime Minister confirm this

:45:36.:45:40.

Government's commitment to science and institutions in the north-west?

:45:40.:45:45.

I think the honourable lady is right, to raise this issue and the

:45:45.:45:48.

immense British contribution there has been to the extraordinary

:45:48.:45:53.

breakthrough, not least Higgs himself and extraordinary works,

:45:53.:45:59.

done in the north-west. It's a very big step forward and congratulate

:45:59.:46:01.

everyone involved. This Government's commitment to science

:46:01.:46:04.

is without any doubt, not least because while we have made

:46:04.:46:10.

difficult cuts, we have preserved the science budget. In the last 15

:46:10.:46:16.

days we have witnessed chaos in the Ulster Bank. Direct debits continue

:46:16.:46:22.

to be removed and the bank is owned by RBS. We, the people, have an 82%

:46:22.:46:26.

share, therefore the Government has a major say in what happens in the

:46:26.:46:29.

bank in Northern Ireland. Can the Prime Minister give an assurance to

:46:29.:46:33.

the 100,000 Ulster Bank customers that they will have a direct input

:46:33.:46:39.

from the Prime Minister and Government to address this issue?

:46:39.:46:43.

quite understand why he raises this. What happened isn't acceptable.

:46:43.:46:47.

Clearly, it's an operational matter for the bank, but the Financial

:46:47.:46:51.

Services Authority has been monitoring this very closely. The

:46:51.:46:53.

Secretary of State for Northern Ireland spoke yesterday to the

:46:53.:46:58.

chairman of RBS. The lessons must be learnt, but I can tell him that

:46:58.:47:05.

RBS has said it will reimburse any customer for penalty charges or

:47:05.:47:12.

overdrafts fees, anything incurred from these difficulties. To be

:47:12.:47:16.

blunt, my constituents in Lancaster and Fleetwood in businesses are

:47:16.:47:20.

losing faith in their banks. What they need from the Prime Minister

:47:20.:47:25.

is a reassurance that there will be no more political skeletons in the

:47:25.:47:34.

cupboard left by the Labour Party. What matters for his constituents

:47:34.:47:37.

and frankly everyone in this House is that we get to the bottom of

:47:37.:47:41.

what happened as quickly as possible. We have had a vote in the

:47:41.:47:44.

House of Lords. We'll have a vote in the House of Commons. Then we

:47:44.:47:47.

need to get on with it. We are sent to the House to hold the inquiries,

:47:47.:47:56.

to find the facts, to pass these laws. Let's get on with it.

:47:56.:48:00.

Yesterday, 117 manufacturing jobs were lost in my constituency on a

:48:00.:48:03.

rising trend of unemployment in North Wales. Could the Prime

:48:03.:48:08.

Minister confirm to the House that the GDP figures last week showed

:48:08.:48:12.

that the Government's performance was worse than expected? It

:48:12.:48:16.

requires change and actually is the cause of his Government's policies?

:48:16.:48:20.

No, I very much regret any loss of jobs, including in his constituency,

:48:20.:48:24.

particularly as it comes at a time when since the election we have

:48:24.:48:28.

seen 800,000 extra jobs in the private sector. I'm very concerned

:48:28.:48:31.

about the economic performance in Wales, which over the last decade

:48:31.:48:35.

or more, has actually fallen further behind the United Kingdom

:48:35.:48:40.

and I think we need to work very, very hard with the Welsh Assembly

:48:40.:48:43.

Government to try to make sure that we are making Wales more

:48:43.:48:49.

competitive. A key part of the Health Bill is that clinical change

:48:49.:48:55.

must be led by clinicians and patients. In my own hospital in

:48:55.:48:58.

Eastbourne, the majority of consultants have said they have no

:48:58.:49:03.

confidence in the proposed clinical change by the Trust, by the vast

:49:03.:49:07.

majority of the public and they share that lack. Will the Prime

:49:07.:49:12.

Minister confirm that the local trust has to listen to all these

:49:12.:49:15.

people in Eastbourne? I can absolutely confirm that. Clearly,

:49:15.:49:19.

changes shouldn't go ahead unless there's proper listening to local

:49:19.:49:22.

clinicians and local people. That's how the Health Service should

:49:22.:49:25.

operate. The Health Secretary will be making an announcement shortly,

:49:25.:49:31.

but the good news is if you look across the Health Service,

:49:31.:49:37.

inpatients and outpaish ept waiting times are down and we have the best

:49:37.:49:41.

-- outpatient waiting times are down and rates of infection are

:49:41.:49:46.

down and the Health Service is doing well. The Prime Minister will

:49:46.:49:51.

be aware that the Crown Office in Scotland has confirmed it's been

:49:51.:49:55.

carrying out investigation led by the serious crime division in

:49:55.:49:59.

allegations that several banks, including state-owned RBS has

:49:59.:50:01.

provided false information to financial markets. Does the Prime

:50:01.:50:04.

Minister back that investigation and given the scale of the crisis,

:50:04.:50:10.

given the scale of public anger, will he back the need for a full,

:50:10.:50:12.

independent judge-led inquiry and crucially will he give us a free

:50:12.:50:16.

vote in the House tomorrow? I think there are two important things here.

:50:16.:50:21.

First, we should allow all of the investigative authorities to carry

:50:21.:50:24.

out their investigations and take them wherever the evidence leads

:50:24.:50:27.

them. That is true for the Serious Fraud Office and for the Financial

:50:27.:50:32.

Services Authority. We need to make sure they have the resources

:50:32.:50:35.

necessary. We have to consider the nature of the inquiry and the

:50:35.:50:38.

problem, I think, with the suggestion, is as these

:50:38.:50:42.

investigations are on going it's easier to hold a rapid

:50:42.:50:44.

investigation within Parliament than to set up an investigation

:50:44.:50:51.

outside Parliament. What message would the Prime Minister send to

:50:51.:50:55.

the emergency services, local authorities and communities across

:50:55.:50:57.

the north-east that swung into action so effectively when the

:50:57.:51:02.

region was hit by flooding last week? The first thing I would say

:51:02.:51:06.

is a huge congratulations and thank you to the emergency services. I

:51:06.:51:10.

saw for myself, not in his area, but when I was in West Yorkshire,

:51:10.:51:13.

the work that was done there. I think the other thing to note is

:51:14.:51:17.

whenever these things happen there is an incredible coming together of

:51:17.:51:20.

community and social action to help people who have been flooded out of

:51:20.:51:23.

their homes and I'm sure everyone on all sides of the House will want

:51:23.:51:30.

to thank people for what they've done on other's behalves. On the

:51:30.:51:35.

question of a European referendum, is it the policy of the Prime

:51:35.:51:41.

Minister to be indecisive or is he not sure?! I wonder how long in

:51:41.:51:44.

front of the bathroom mirror that one took?! The point is this, I

:51:44.:51:47.

think there are two things that wouldn't be right. First, to hold

:51:47.:51:50.

an in and out referendum now. That's not the right approach.

:51:50.:51:54.

Second, to rule it out for all time. I've no idea what his party's

:51:54.:52:04.

policy is. Would my Right Honourable friend agree that

:52:04.:52:11.

central to any reforms of banking must be the point of view of

:52:11.:52:16.

ordinary punters two things, first, the proposals which we are already

:52:16.:52:20.

working up to ensure people can move accounts quickly, cheaply and

:52:20.:52:26.

easily and secondly, an absolute guarantee that governments never

:52:26.:52:32.

again will bail out banks? I think my friend makes two very important

:52:32.:52:35.

points. On the first, being able to move your bank account, that will

:52:35.:52:39.

be in place later this year. On the issue of bailing out banks, what we

:52:39.:52:45.

need to do is put in place mechanisims so that banks can fail

:52:45.:52:48.

without calling on taxpayers to support them. That resolution

:52:48.:52:53.

regime, which for 13 years was left untouched by the party opposite,

:52:53.:53:00.

has been dealt with by this Government. The euro now has a

:53:00.:53:07.

solid record of destroying jobs and democracy throughout Europe. The

:53:07.:53:10.

Prime Minister is failing to repatriate any powers or resources

:53:10.:53:15.

to this country. When is he going to stop dithering and allow the

:53:15.:53:21.

people in this country to have a referendum on the euro -- on the

:53:21.:53:26.

European Union, to decide whether to -- stay in or get out of that

:53:26.:53:31.

mess? Firstly, we have actually repatriated one power, which is we

:53:31.:53:35.

have got out of the bail out that the last Government put us into.

:53:35.:53:40.

That is saving us billions. I think if he takes that view he should be

:53:40.:53:46.

sitting on this side of the House rather than that side. I want to

:53:46.:53:52.

draw the attention from banking for one moment and to the opposition,

:53:52.:53:57.

to more important matters. Children's lives in my constituency.

:53:57.:54:00.

Five children in my constituency have been involved in an accident

:54:00.:54:04.

in a crossing outside St Peter's school in Heysham. I know it's a

:54:04.:54:07.

County Council matter, but I would like the assistance of the Prime

:54:07.:54:13.

Minister to help me trying to get a crossing outside the school.

:54:13.:54:17.

think he's entirely right to raise such a case, where so many people

:54:17.:54:21.

have lost their lives. I will certainly look at what he says and

:54:21.:54:25.

as he says, it's a matter for the County Council, but if I can help

:54:25.:54:31.

him to put his case, I will be pleased to do so. Leicester is

:54:31.:54:33.

feeling the brunt of the Prime Minister's double-dip recession

:54:33.:54:36.

with the sad news today that yet another business is going under

:54:36.:54:40.

with the loss of local jobs. In this context, was the Prime

:54:40.:54:43.

Minister as disappointed as I was at the figures last month that

:54:44.:54:47.

showed lending to small businesses down by 1.7 billion and is it now

:54:47.:54:50.

not clear that the Chancellor's credit easing policies aren't

:54:50.:54:58.

working? Firstly, the credit-easing policy is going to make available

:54:58.:55:03.

�20 billion of extra loans. Some of that money is already available.

:55:03.:55:09.

The Merlin scheme saw lending to small businesses go up in 2011.

:55:09.:55:12.

There is a difficult situation when you've got banks that are very

:55:13.:55:16.

nervous about the economic situation. But the Treasury and the

:55:16.:55:18.

Bank of England and through the Merlin agreement, we are doing all

:55:18.:55:28.
:55:28.:55:28.

we can to get money out of banks and into hard-pressed businesses.

:55:28.:55:36.

If, as a result of this shameful banking crisis bank executives are

:55:36.:55:43.

dismissed or forced to resign, and the boards of their banks fail to

:55:43.:55:49.

act appropriately, will the Government do it's best to try to

:55:49.:55:55.

ensure that the delink wepbts are not able to walk awhat -- the

:55:55.:56:01.

delink wepbts are not able to walk away with their pay? It would be

:56:01.:56:06.

wrong if people were leaving under these circumstances were given some

:56:06.:56:10.

vast payoff. It would be completely inexplicable to the British public

:56:10.:56:12.

and I very much hope that doesn't happen. In terms of what the

:56:12.:56:18.

Government can do, what we are going to do is legislate so that

:56:18.:56:22.

all pay deals are put to shareholders in a binding vote and

:56:22.:56:25.

those deals should include any severance payments. Again,

:56:26.:56:34.

something the party opposite 13 years to do, we'll do in two.

:56:34.:56:37.

the richest 1,000 persons in Britain made gains of �155 billion

:56:37.:56:42.

in the last three years of austerity, why won't the Government

:56:42.:56:45.

charge those gains at capital gains tax rates, which would bring in

:56:45.:56:51.

around �40 billion? Enough without any increase in public borrowing at

:56:51.:56:55.

all to generate a million or more jobs, which is a better way to cut

:56:55.:56:57.

the deficit through growth rather than through the Chancellor's

:56:57.:57:02.

failed slump. I hate to remind the Right Honourable gentleman, but he

:57:03.:57:06.

was a minister in the Government where the last Government's capital

:57:06.:57:09.

gains tax rules meant that people in the City were paying less in tax

:57:09.:57:15.

than their cleaners were paying in tax. What we have done is actually

:57:15.:57:23.

lift the rate of tax to 28%, so actually we have a fairer system.

:57:23.:57:27.

Pupils I met recently at Horsham primary school told me in their own

:57:27.:57:31.

creative ways that they liked to learn together. But they know that

:57:31.:57:35.

many children in other countries never get that chance. As the chair

:57:35.:57:43.

of the UN's high-level Panel on the Millennium Development Goals how

:57:43.:57:46.

will the Prime Minister restart efforts to make sure all girls and

:57:46.:57:49.

boys around the world get to go to school? He raises an important

:57:49.:57:53.

point, which is that send my friend to school campaigns that many of us

:57:53.:57:58.

will have seen in our quepbss is a brilliant way of teaching young

:57:58.:58:03.

people the importance of showing responsibility for others on the

:58:03.:58:08.

other side of the world. Our aid is currently supporting 5.3 million

:58:08.:58:12.

children in primary education and by 2014 we hope to up that to 9

:58:12.:58:15.

million people, so the Government is playing its part, but we want

:58:15.:58:18.

all of civil society, schools, parents and teachers to join us

:58:19.:58:23.

with this great effort. In addition to what the Prime Minister said

:58:23.:58:27.

earlier in relation to the Ulster Bank crisis in Northern Ireland,

:58:27.:58:31.

where households, individuals and businesses are denied even basic

:58:31.:58:34.

banking facilities, can the Prime Minister, along with the Chancellor,

:58:34.:58:39.

talk to the HMRC to ensure that some flexibility will be shown to

:58:39.:58:42.

households, individuals and businesses in terms of liabilities

:58:42.:58:45.

there, so people can be helped through cashflow problems that may

:58:45.:58:51.

exist as a result of problems they didn't create? I will look at what

:58:51.:58:54.

the honourable gentleman says. RBS have said that they will make sure

:58:54.:58:58.

people don't lose out in terms of banking charges, but the point he

:58:58.:59:06.

makes about the HMRC I'll discuss with the Chancellor. I welcome the

:59:06.:59:10.

Government's commitment to women and girls the heart of its

:59:10.:59:17.

development policy, as the toibgio conference on the future of

:59:17.:59:21.

Afghanistan approaches, will the Prime Minister -- Tokyo conference

:59:21.:59:25.

on the future of Afghanistan approaches, will the Prime Minister

:59:25.:59:28.

make the aid conditional on the protection of hard-won rights of

:59:28.:59:33.

women and girls, which he knows are under attack? She makes a very

:59:33.:59:37.

important point. What we see in Afghanistan is whereas in 2001

:59:37.:59:40.

there were less than one million children attending school and there

:59:40.:59:45.

were no girls attending school in 2001, today, we have got 6 million

:59:45.:59:48.

children regularly attending school in Afghanistan and two million of

:59:48.:59:53.

them are girls. I will is listen carefully to what she says about

:59:53.:59:56.

our aid programme and discuss it with the Secretary of State. It's

:59:56.:59:59.

important that we attach conditions and have real transparency and

:59:59.:00:02.

proper results from our aid. I it's the only way we can take people

:00:02.:00:06.

with us as we continue to expand our aid budget at a time of

:00:06.:00:08.

economic difficulty at home. She is absolutely right to raise this

:00:09.:00:13.

issue, because if we want a stable and prosperous Afghanistan and a

:00:13.:00:17.

safe Afghanistan, we need an Afghanistan where the role of women

:00:17.:00:21.

is properly respected. Can I give the Prime Minister the opportunity

:00:21.:00:25.

to answer the question put to him a few moments ago by my friend from

:00:25.:00:27.

Glasgow Central? If the Prime Minister believes in the

:00:27.:00:32.

sovereignty of Parliament, will he confirm tomorrow will be a free

:00:32.:00:36.

vote across the House? There was a vote last night in the House of

:00:36.:00:39.

Lords when Labour peers were heavily whipped to vote for the

:00:39.:00:43.

Labour position. I have a clear view. The Government has a clear

:00:43.:00:45.

view, but the whole of the coalition has a clear view about

:00:46.:00:49.

the right way ahead. There will be a motion for the Labour Party,

:00:49.:00:52.

which you can vote for. And a motion for us, which we can vote

:00:52.:00:56.

for and I hope and let me put this one more time to the Leader of the

:00:57.:01:00.

Opposition, I will be bound by any a vote for a full public inquiry,

:01:00.:01:05.

will he be bound if the House votes for a Parliamentary one? If he

:01:05.:01:09.

can't answer that question people will take a very dim view of an

:01:09.:01:12.

opposition party that stands in the way of an inquiry because they

:01:12.:01:22.

don't want their dirty washing done in public. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:01:22.:01:26.

The Olympics are a great opportunity to bring our nation

:01:26.:01:30.

together. Therefore, does the Prime Minister share my dismay at the

:01:30.:01:36.

plans of some union leaders to disrupt the summer's events?

:01:36.:01:44.

think he makes an important point. London. The Right Honourable

:01:44.:01:47.

gentleman likes to talk about standing up to vested interests.

:01:47.:01:50.

What have we heard from him on the trade union movement? Absolutely

:01:50.:01:56.

nothing. The whole country will be listening to that. We want a

:01:56.:01:58.

strike-free Olympics and Labour should talk to their pay masters

:01:59.:02:07.

about it. We all witnesses the storms last week across the country.

:02:07.:02:11.

In my own village it hit the headlines, because of floods. We

:02:11.:02:16.

are all grateful to the police, the fire brigade, the County Council,

:02:16.:02:21.

and the mountain rescue service, but will the Prime Minister confirm

:02:21.:02:26.

that the Government will be there with real money? Of course we will

:02:26.:02:30.

be there to do that and we are investing around �2 billion in

:02:30.:02:33.

future flood defences. Of course, all the emergency services have

:02:33.:02:37.

done an excellent job and they remain ready to carry out further

:02:37.:02:40.

work if necessary. I also think the Government should lend a very

:02:40.:02:43.

sympathetic ear to those local councils and local organisations

:02:43.:02:47.

that are in particular setting up hardship funds to help families,

:02:47.:02:51.

perhaps who don't have insurance or perhaps cannot avoid the excess

:02:51.:02:55.

when it comes to actually dealing with the problems that they have. I

:02:55.:02:57.

have said to the Department of Communities and local Government,

:02:57.:03:00.

we should be generous in helping people get their lives back

:03:00.:03:04.

together. Would the Prime Minister join me in welcoming the news that

:03:04.:03:09.

over �1 billion has been raised in the last six months to startups in

:03:09.:03:13.

our science sector? More than in the last three years. This is a

:03:13.:03:16.

massive statement of confidence in our policies to make Britain a

:03:16.:03:21.

place to do business? I think my honourable friend, who has a close

:03:21.:03:25.

interest in the industry, he knows a lot about what he speaks, one of

:03:25.:03:30.

the successes with the EU patent court coming to London, is that the

:03:30.:03:33.

patents that cover life sciences, pharmaceuticals and those

:03:33.:03:38.

industries, that is going to be in London too and that is actually

:03:38.:03:42.

tens of many, many jobs and millions of pounds of investment

:03:42.:03:52.
:03:52.:04:12.

into this industry and our capital Metrical Bob Diamond was dominating

:04:12.:04:17.

PMQs there. -- naturally. First of all, let's hear what you thought

:04:17.:04:23.

about it. Yes, all of the e-mails talking about that issue. This one

:04:23.:04:30.

says, nothing but a scramble for the higher moral ground from Labour.

:04:30.:04:35.

Ed Miliband is playing the only card they have, say it enough, and

:04:35.:04:39.

people will start believing it. This one says, wasn't Ed Miliband

:04:39.:04:46.

an adviser when the banks were let off the leash? This one says, Ed

:04:46.:04:50.

Balls was remarkably quiet today. This one says, Ed Miliband is wrong,

:04:50.:04:55.

we do not need an inquiry, we need action. Let the serious Fraud

:04:55.:04:59.

Office pursue any criminal action immediately. This one says, we do

:04:59.:05:06.

not need a cover-up, we cannot trust this to the politicians. It

:05:06.:05:12.

is vital to clean the decks, we need to get rid of the dirt. And

:05:12.:05:16.

this one says, I can fully understand the reticence regarding

:05:16.:05:19.

a judicial inquiry. Mr Cameron has got himself into an awful muddle

:05:20.:05:26.

over this, and has been completely outflanked by Ed Miliband today,

:05:26.:05:34.

with this two-speed review proposal. Miliband comes across as

:05:34.:05:39.

increasingly statesmanlike and honest.

:05:39.:05:44.

Towards the end of the exchanges, they got to the kind of, I will

:05:44.:05:48.

take no lectures from you, but most of it was dominated by another

:05:48.:05:54.

argument about process, about what kind of inquiry to have - how do we

:05:54.:05:59.

proceed on this, will the vote in the Commons determine it? That's

:05:59.:06:03.

what David Cameron was trying to find out, will Labour go along with

:06:03.:06:08.

the parliamentary inquiry, even if they lose the vote? Of course, the

:06:08.:06:13.

opposition is extremely likely to lose the vote, on Thursday. Those

:06:13.:06:16.

exchanges were lower key, a more substantive, Ed Balls was not

:06:16.:06:20.

shouting out, George Osborne on the other side was lower-key than he

:06:20.:06:24.

often is. It follows, I can reveal, a conversation which happened

:06:24.:06:28.

yesterday on the telephone between the Prime Minister and the Leader

:06:28.:06:30.

of the Opposition. The Prime Minister rang the Labour leader to

:06:30.:06:36.

discuss this inquiry. Ed Miliband, I am told, essentially said, if you

:06:36.:06:38.

want a cross-party consensus, you're going about it a pretty

:06:38.:06:43.

funny way, because Labour were angered, really, by the attempt to

:06:43.:06:47.

put Ed Balls in the dock, for failing to regulate the banks. What

:06:47.:06:51.

was interesting, I thought, was that the Prime Minister was trying

:06:51.:07:00.

to sound none parties and, I will listen to your suggestions. -- non-

:07:00.:07:02.

partisan. And Ed Miliband was trying to respond to what he had

:07:02.:07:09.

heard. He was saying, you say it has got to be quick, so I will

:07:09.:07:14.

suggest a to party inquiry. It was only at their end that you saw the

:07:14.:07:22.

raw politics. -- two-part inquiry. The Tories are determined to

:07:22.:07:25.

portray Labour as the party that failed to regulate the bankers.

:07:25.:07:31.

Both sides are being pretty brutal. What will Labour do if it loses the

:07:31.:07:37.

vote in the Commons? At the moment we're focusing on the case for a

:07:37.:07:40.

judge-led inquiry. We will just have to see tomorrow what happens.

:07:40.:07:45.

I will not be dragged into speculating. The Prime Minister has

:07:45.:07:49.

said that if the House votes for a judge-led inquiry, which is what

:07:49.:07:55.

you want, then there will be one. So, if the House votes for a

:07:55.:07:59.

parliamentary inquiry, will you co- operate? We will have to see.

:07:59.:08:04.

will know tomorrow. And will say this, if that is the decision of

:08:04.:08:08.

the House tomorrow, we will never believe that a parliamentary

:08:08.:08:12.

inquiry would have been as good as having a judge-led one.. I know

:08:12.:08:16.

that, but I am trying to find out what you will do. You will probably

:08:16.:08:22.

lose the vote, so, what we you do? Well, we will have to have that

:08:22.:08:30.

discussion. At the moment, you do not know? At the moment we are

:08:30.:08:34.

focusing on the most important part of the debate, a judge-led inquiry.

:08:34.:08:38.

I have asked you and you will not answer, that's fine, maybe you have

:08:38.:08:42.

to speak to Mr Miliband, maybe he does not even know. Clearly, labour

:08:42.:08:46.

is worried because they were in power at the time, and there was

:08:46.:08:50.

clearly manipulation of the LIBOR rates, and government could have

:08:50.:08:56.

been complicit. But if you look at where we got to by then, you had a

:08:56.:09:01.

set of regulations which were loose and carelessly -- and clearly did

:09:01.:09:06.

not work, come the crisis. In the record, I can find no official

:09:06.:09:09.

Conservative statement of you calling for the regulations to be

:09:09.:09:14.

tightened - can you give me one? One thing which most concern this,

:09:14.:09:17.

and it is on the record, is the fact that the regulation of the

:09:17.:09:20.

banks was split up in a very complex way across the Treasury,

:09:20.:09:23.

the Bank of England and the Financial Services Authority. And

:09:23.:09:27.

back then, we said, this is going to lead to trouble, and we pulled

:09:27.:09:32.

them back together. But that is about the structure of the

:09:32.:09:37.

regulation. I understand that he did not too much like the structure

:09:37.:09:42.

of the tripartite arrangement, but even given that, Mr Miliband is

:09:42.:09:48.

able to produce a file of your party calling for even light of

:09:48.:09:54.

regulation. You were wrong, weren't you? I don't think the issue is...

:09:54.:09:58.

If you will let me answer the question. And just saying, it is

:09:58.:10:03.

true, isn't it? He has already asked me the question, you do not

:10:03.:10:08.

have to ask me as well. What we're talking about here is good

:10:08.:10:12.

regulation, it is not about a light touch or not. Good regulation is

:10:12.:10:16.

about not having the tripartite system. I thought the Exchange

:10:16.:10:20.

today was fascinating. Ed Miliband is calling for a judge-led inquiry,

:10:20.:10:25.

I suspect whilst desperately hoping that it is a parliamentary one.

:10:25.:10:28.

Because what will be under investigation here is what your

:10:28.:10:37.

ministers were doing. That is completely not true. He must be

:10:37.:10:43.

hoping that we can have a Parliamentary Review, secretly.

:10:43.:10:48.

Where do we go with this? I suspect the public just want an inquiry,

:10:48.:10:52.

they do not really care what kind it is. There was a poll last night

:10:53.:10:59.

which suggested the public wanted a judicial -- a judge-led inquiry.

:10:59.:11:04.

But where does Westminster go on this? You will get a vote. You will

:11:04.:11:11.

get two votes tomorrow. Because of the parliamentary system, Labour

:11:11.:11:17.

will lose that vote. They will then have a simple choice - do they vote

:11:17.:11:22.

against it in the inquiry? If they do, the man asked to chair it says

:11:22.:11:30.

he will not carry on with that job. Every instinct tells you that

:11:30.:11:34.

Labour will try their best but in the end they will go along with the

:11:34.:11:38.

parliamentary inquiry. But there is still an interesting question -

:11:38.:11:41.

what do they vote for it or do they abstain, in a theatrical statement,

:11:41.:11:45.

which says, this is not what we wanted, but we will not allow you

:11:45.:11:49.

to accuse us of trying to block an inquiry, because that is not oppose

:11:49.:11:55.

an objector. My last thought is, there must be a tiny little thought

:11:55.:12:00.

in Ed Miliband's head, that I could really bring the house down. In

:12:00.:12:04.

other words, Labour could vote against it. He will probably see

:12:04.:12:08.

that as a trap set for him by the Tories. But each day this has gone

:12:08.:12:12.

on, what has been really striking to me is, Ed Miliband has hardened

:12:13.:12:17.

his position, not softened it. He thinks he is on a roll, he thinks

:12:17.:12:20.

he has got David Cameron in the wrong place, he thinks public

:12:20.:12:26.

opinion is on his site, so he could still press that button. Now, to

:12:26.:12:33.

something a little different. Kylie, Rick Astley, Bananarama, Mel and

:12:33.:12:40.

Kim - no, not our next guests, but all acts which were helped into the

:12:40.:12:46.

top 10 by our next guest, Pete Waterman. Jeremy get in behind the

:12:46.:12:48.

Government's controversial plan for a new high-speed rail line between

:12:48.:12:58.
:12:58.:13:13.

It seem I life I have loved railways. In fact, I started my

:13:13.:13:16.

career in 1962 at Wolverhampton in the steam depot. It was not until

:13:16.:13:20.

that closed in 1963 that I considered the music industry as a

:13:20.:13:28.

career. I have always believed in public railways. In 1968, British

:13:28.:13:33.

Rail introduced a new electric train service into Euston from

:13:33.:13:37.

Birmingham. The time was one hour and 20 minutes, coming down from

:13:37.:13:41.

two hours. I lived in Coventry at the time and I was just joining the

:13:41.:13:45.

record industry. I did it in 58 minutes. The new high-speed train

:13:45.:13:55.
:13:55.:13:56.

service will be in Birmingham in 45 minutes - that's progress. You do

:13:56.:14:02.

not need to be a railway enthusiast to believe in HS2, because railway

:14:03.:14:06.

innovation and economic growth go hand in hand. Gone will be the

:14:07.:14:13.

North-South divide, because land sipping -- because HS2 will change

:14:13.:14:17.

the United Kingdom for ever. What happened the last time we built a

:14:17.:14:25.

brand new railway? The Industrial Revolution. As a northerner, I am

:14:25.:14:29.

not insensitive to the problems of building a brand new railway,

:14:29.:14:32.

particularly for the people but lose their land and their homes.

:14:32.:14:36.

But we simply can't put no more trains on our network, we are full.

:14:36.:14:43.

The country must go forward, we must build HS2 - simple. The

:14:43.:14:47.

current HS2 deal is proposed to go from Birmingham straight to

:14:47.:14:52.

Manchester with no stop. Where we would like to see it modified is a

:14:52.:14:55.

stop at Crewe, which would open up the whole of the north-west, and 6

:14:55.:14:59.

million more people. You could then get a high-speed train to Lancaster,

:14:59.:15:06.

Preston, Liverpool, North Wales and Chester. So, Prime Minister, put

:15:06.:15:15.

that on your route map. Pete Waterman joins us now. We are also

:15:15.:15:18.

joined in the studio by the leader of Buckinghamshire County Council,

:15:18.:15:22.

Martin Tett. He is also the chairman of the 51m group of

:15:22.:15:27.

councils are opposed to the new nine. It is going to cost �32

:15:27.:15:30.

billion, and much more to buy the trains and pay for the running

:15:30.:15:36.

costs, all of this to save 35 minutes - is it worth it? It is not

:15:36.:15:40.

about time, it is about history. This will change Britain once-and-

:15:40.:15:44.

for-all. It is as simple as that. You cannot look at railways in

:15:44.:15:49.

military terms. We never have, we never should do. So, it is not

:15:49.:15:52.

about money or saving time, it is about an Industrial Revolution,

:15:52.:16:02.
:16:02.:16:04.

about moving forward? I respect Pete Waterman, but when you look at

:16:04.:16:07.

spending �30 million -- �32 billion on a railway line, to save 25

:16:07.:16:10.

minutes for wealthy businessman, I'm not sure that is good value for

:16:10.:16:15.

money. I can remember when people were just as passionate about

:16:15.:16:19.

Concorde, about the Millennium Dome - but you have got to have a good

:16:19.:16:22.

business case. The business case for this has absolutely fallen

:16:22.:16:27.

apart since January. What do you say to that? It has never had a

:16:27.:16:31.

business case, you do not need a business case, it is only

:16:31.:16:35.

politicians need business cases. You build railways, they change the

:16:35.:16:39.

world. I lived in Coventry, it used to be one hour and 20 minutes,

:16:39.:16:43.

which went down to 58 minutes. Would you feel like that if you

:16:43.:16:49.

lived in the Chilterns? I live in Cheshire, and I have got the M56

:16:49.:16:52.

less than a mile from my back garden. I live there because I can

:16:52.:16:57.

get to Runcorn or Warrington station in 10 minutes. Respect, but

:16:57.:17:01.

if you are going to spend �32 billion of taxpayers' money, at a

:17:01.:17:05.

time of austerity, when, as a local councillor, I am having to make

:17:05.:17:11.

tough decisions, seeing libraries closing, hospital wards reduced,

:17:11.:17:15.

these are really tough decisions to defend on the doorstep, so you need

:17:15.:17:19.

to have a business case for spending this amount of money. The

:17:19.:17:22.

business case of this project has absolutely collapsed. But even at

:17:22.:17:25.

the Transport Select Committee, the chairman concluded that High Speed

:17:26.:17:29.

2 could be a catalyst for economic growth, helping to rebalance the

:17:29.:17:33.

economy and to bridge the North South divide, that would be part of

:17:33.:17:39.

answering your concerns, would it not? The Government has tried to

:17:39.:17:42.

cost that in in the numbers they are producing, what they call their

:17:42.:17:45.

cost-benefit analysis. When they first announced it, they were

:17:46.:17:50.

saying that for every �1 invested, you would get more than �2 in terms

:17:50.:17:55.

of benefits. That has gone down to 1.6, and further down to 1.2. And

:17:55.:18:03.

if you come to the latest forecasts, it is well down below one. This is

:18:03.:18:08.

not just about the speed or the business case, it is as simple as

:18:08.:18:12.

this - we have not built railways at a substantial level since the

:18:12.:18:16.

Victorian times. This country now has a massively bigger population.

:18:16.:18:20.

The railway system will be completely full by 2020, we need

:18:20.:18:30.
:18:30.:18:33.

another line. We support High Speed 2. The first one came under Labour,

:18:33.:18:36.

down to the channel, that was a good decision. But I am worried

:18:36.:18:39.

that the Government will be stepping back from making sure it

:18:39.:18:43.

goes beyond the Midlands, further up, and the point is that we should

:18:43.:18:47.

have warned bill which brings these together. And it is about that all

:18:47.:18:51.

South divide. As a Yorkshire MP, I want to make sure we have a fair

:18:51.:18:54.

chance to get to be balanced economy, and the railway system is

:18:54.:19:04.
:19:04.:19:04.

The Government's argument moves around like jelly. Once it was

:19:04.:19:08.

about speed and now capacity. It can be about both, but the speed

:19:08.:19:11.

argument falls apart if you accept that businessmen spend time working

:19:11.:19:14.

on trains. The issue on capacity is interesting, because we have been

:19:14.:19:19.

trying to get the details from the DFT about what the factors on the

:19:19.:19:23.

trains are and they've consistently refused to tell us. If they have an

:19:23.:19:27.

argument on capacity, if Grant will give a commitment they'll release

:19:27.:19:30.

the information on what the load factors are, then they've got a

:19:30.:19:40.

case. I run trains and let me tell you, I cannot get timings from

:19:40.:19:44.

Network Rail for a steam train until the night before, so I run a

:19:44.:19:49.

steam special and on the day I don't know if I've got a path.

:19:49.:19:53.

about capacity? We need the project in this day. If we want to build an

:19:53.:19:57.

economy is action fit for the 21st century and enables us to be a

:19:57.:20:03.

better, bigger economy, to help our citizens grow our way out of the

:20:03.:20:07.

global problems, you cannot do that without significant investment in

:20:07.:20:12.

infrastructure and that is something we need. If the DFT would

:20:12.:20:17.

give us the information. It's all fascinating. What you can't

:20:17.:20:20.

disagree with is significant infrastructure hasn't been built

:20:20.:20:25.

for many, many years and it's time to do something. Grant shapz, two

:20:25.:20:34.

things, you say it's definitely going to go ahead. How can you

:20:34.:20:40.

allay fears about it? It was never planned for the Queen's Speech. It

:20:40.:20:46.

will come in next year. The other thing, HS2 was sold by your party

:20:46.:20:50.

as a way to get rid of more runways in the south-east. The Government

:20:50.:20:54.

seems to be changing its mind on airport capacity. Does that mean we

:20:54.:21:00.

won't need HS2? You need two. You need to have ports in and out of

:21:00.:21:04.

the country, because we are a trading global nation. We also need

:21:04.:21:07.

to move people around within the country. We need more airport

:21:07.:21:10.

capacity in the south-east. Make the decision to make sure it's

:21:10.:21:15.

going into the north as well. We need the jobs starting in the north

:21:15.:21:20.

as well as the south. I know. should be extended beyond both.

:21:20.:21:25.

It's to extend and go up both sides of the country. Two builds. These

:21:25.:21:29.

things take a long time to build. I'm going to have to leave it there.

:21:29.:21:37.

I'm sure we'll meet up again. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

:21:37.:21:40.

Paul tucker from the Bank of England said he now is anxious to

:21:40.:21:44.

appear before the Treasury Select Committee as quickly as possible,

:21:44.:21:48.

because he has some very important things he want to say. Now, this

:21:48.:21:50.

morning a very important announcement was made. At a seminar

:21:50.:21:53.

in CERN1, the ATLAS and CMS experiment teams presented their

:21:53.:21:55.

preliminary findings in the search for the long-sought-after Higgs

:21:55.:21:58.

particle. Both experiments observe a new particle in the mass region

:21:58.:22:00.

around 125-126 GeV. They say they've observed in their data

:22:00.:22:04.

clear signs of a new particle at the level of five sigma. The

:22:04.:22:07.

results, we must stress, are preliminary, but they say it is a

:22:07.:22:10.

boson and not just that, it's the heaviest boson ever found. The next

:22:10.:22:13.

step is to find out if the properties are as expected, or if

:22:13.:22:16.

they are the final missing ingredient in the standard model of

:22:16.:22:18.

particle physics. Or could it be something more exotic altogether?

:22:18.:22:22.

Well, we can speak now to the most intelligent man in the Commons, the

:22:22.:22:25.

former scientist, Julian Huppert, to tell us just what exactly that

:22:25.:22:32.

all means, as I haven't got the foggiest! It's the fundamental

:22:32.:22:36.

particle that gives everything mass. It's taken 45 years to see it in

:22:36.:22:39.

action. It's a very exciting time for science. Thousands of people

:22:39.:22:43.

have been working on, many from the UK. It's nice to make a theoretical

:22:43.:22:49.

prediction and find what you are looking for. What is it called the

:22:49.:22:52.

God particle? Because it does have this amazing role in making sure

:22:52.:22:55.

that everything has mass, that things fall and are attracted to

:22:55.:23:00.

each other. It's one of the key things that means that matters

:23:01.:23:04.

behaves the way we are all used to. Thank you very much. Good to get

:23:04.:23:11.

straight answers from a politician. Just bash that. Caroline, hit it.

:23:11.:23:17.

There's the winner. The year was 1986. I've got to apologise,

:23:17.:23:21.

because we put the wrong film up on the website. It didn't correspond

:23:21.:23:24.

with what we showed in the programme. Apologies. On the day we

:23:24.:23:34.
:23:34.:23:34.

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