09/07/2012 Daily Politics


09/07/2012

Jo Coburn has the latest political news and debate, with Charlie Taylor. Christine Blower discusses how to improve behaviour in schools. Plus Lords reform with Conor Burns.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Is the coalition

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heading into unchartered territory? The two sides this week prepare to

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go in to battle over the issue of Lords Reform. Can David Cameron

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bring his Conservative rebels into line? Can Nick Clegg get his

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treasured bill through Parliament? And can the two men keep the

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coalition intact? Meanwhile Ed Miliband goes into

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battle with the banks. The Labour leader is demanding a shake-up of

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the industry. This afternoon the deputy governor of the Bank of

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England will give evidence to MPs about his role in the Libor scandal.

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Should the official beer of the Olympics be British? We'll be

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looking at why some foreign lagers are leaving a bitter taste in the

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mouths of some MPs. And we will be hoping that our

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Calm so far! All that in the next hour.

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With us for the first half of the programme today is one man who

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certainly won't behave like that, at least we hope, the government's

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Behaviour Tsar, Charlie Taylor. Just as well Andrew is off today.

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Many bankers have not been behaving as they should. Their behaviour has

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been so bad that this morning, Ed Miliband called up for a shake-up

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of the banking system and a code of conduct for. We need a system where

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bankers are given an incentive not just to focus on the short-term

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return but the long term, a banking system where no one bank is too big

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to fail or too powerful to be challenged. Where all banks face

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real competition and customers have promises to make and maybe this

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sounds like a long way off, but where the term at banker goes back

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to being a compliment and stops being a term of abuse. Above all, a

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system the British people can have confidence in. With us is the

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shadowed Business Secretary Chuka Umunna. The code of conduct. There

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will be legislation going through so what is it you are suggesting

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that is different. There are different FSA regulations applied

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but we want something more broadly applied across the sector. So I

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used to be a solicitor and I am subject to the solicitors' code of

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conduct and if I bridge that, you can be struck off... It is quite

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restricted in the City of London to whom the regulations apply. We want

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something broader. We have a code of conduct for people way if they

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breach the fundamental principles, which has clearly happened, further

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action needs to be taken but that is only part of it. The other thing

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is there is the sense that if somebody in my constituency

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shoplifters, the strong arm of the law is brought down to bear on them.

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But the FSA is investigating and there can be criminal charges.

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and there was a myth around the headlines that seemed to suggest

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there was not legislation in place that enabled action to be taken.

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There was. The issue is that the Serious Fraud Office has not been

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properly resourced to do this work. One of the things that Ed Miliband

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spoke about today, the fine is 10 times more than the budget of the

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FSO so we need to properly resourced that agency so it can do

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the work to bring those to book. Let's look at things that would

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make a difference to the average punter on the streets. Forcing the

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big banks to sell 1,000 branches. How will that help people? Let me

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put that in context. Part of the problem with the banking system is

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that it is seen to serve the banks as opposed to the people. One your

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high-street, you will notice there are just about five big players and

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if you do not have significant competition, you do not end up with

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a good deal for the consumer. 85% of small business lending is

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dominated by four large banks and I think that has something to do with

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the poor service many of them think they are getting. Make a cow on

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switching easier. If people can move their accounts more easy Lee,

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there will be more competition. -- more easily. I have done that

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myself. How long did it take you to move your account from one bank to

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another? Because that is the problem. It needs to be quicker.

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Are these the sort of things you think will appeal? The important

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thing that people worry most about is the idea that we will not have a

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repeat of what happened in 2008, that people will not be queueing up

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in the case of Northern Rock. that was an era over which Labour

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presided. Isn't there a credibility problem for Labour, that at that

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time, your party was in government and despite the accusations about

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whether they were aware of what was going on in terms of rate rigging,

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they were having conversations with all of the banks, including

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Barclays, at a time when... Labour has admitted they did not have

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tight enough regulation? That is right. No doubt about it, we should

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have better regulated the banks but the important thing is that people

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in the future don't and are you going to learn the mistakes of the

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past or compound them? -- and the questionnaires. Vince Cable was

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responsible for setting up the independent commission on banking

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but what a shame it has produced a recommendation that if applied

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strictly does not prevent a repeat of the crisis of 2008... They are

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going to put through that recommendation. But having set up

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the commission, they are watering down the proposals. The capital

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requirements, the vicar's reports said go for a 4% offer, they are

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going for 3%. They said you should have a clear separation between

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investment banking and retail banking, but they are allowing some

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of those things to take place together, for example, the

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derivatives that we saw that were mis-sold to small and medium-size

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enterprises. We need a strict application. We are arguing for

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that because we have learned from our mistakes. I could go into how

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they were saying we were over regulating but the fact is, we need

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to have more regulating and we need to have ring-fencing of retail and

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investment banking and they seem to be walking away from that. What do

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you think Bob Diamond should get? This is an issue for the

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shareholders. What do you think? think the public would find it

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quite outrageous if having presided over failure and having been in the

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driving seat when some of these things were happening in his bank,

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for him to walk away with a pay-off beyond what anybody could think

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about receiving in their lifetime? That is a good point. It is

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important that politicians are not too heavily involved in this

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process. This is a decision for shareholders and politicians can

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set the standards but it is up to shareholders to make the decision.

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But if the public feel that the banks have got away with a lot over

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the last ten years, surely it is up to politicians to take the lead on

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this. We can express an opinion. I think it is fair to say we would

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not have seen the wave of investor revolves had people in Westminster

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of all political persuasions not been arguing -- investor revolts.

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Who should replace him? That is not for me... An insider? We want

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somebody to restore Barclays' in the public eye... Is that for

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somebody currently inside the bank? I don't think that is something

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that as a politician I should be passing comment on. That is an

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issue for the shareholders and the board. Barclays is our third

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largest bank. I want to see its reputation restored, both

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domestically and internationally, because that is in the national

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interest. Some of the arguments that have been put forward, bearing

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in mind Paul Tucker will be interviewed this afternoon, that if

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the rates were being manipulated and he was aware of it at the Bank

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of England, was he doing so for the sake of market confidence, which

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was extremely low? A really important distinction needs to be

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made about what was happening at the time and about what people in

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the Treasury were concerned about. There was concerned about liquidity

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and that if lending to businesses stalled, the economy would stall.

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It is one thing have legitimate concerns about lending and

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liquidity, and supporting the missed reporting that we saw with

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the rate rigging. It is important that in maintaining the integrity

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of the Bank of England that Paul Tucker clears this up this

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afternoon. Do you be agreed that politicians are useless at holding

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bankers to account -- do you agree? Do you agree with that point?

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would not say that every single line of questioning did not work

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but I think perhaps they could have done a better job the other week

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and this is why we have been arguing for a judge LED inquiry

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with a council... You have got you point him. Thank you, Jo.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz. The question for today is: What is

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the official beer of the 2012 London Olympics? Is it: Slater's

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Top Totty? Heineken? Bull Box's Taxi for Dave? Skol? At the end of

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the show, someone will give us the correct answer.

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The Government published its House of Lords Reform Bill last month. It

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calls for the existing Lords to be replaced with a smaller, largely

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elected, upper house. MPs will debate the plans in the Commons for

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the first time today and tomorrow. But it is already causing an

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almighty row, with the Government potentially facing its first

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Commons defeat. The Government's plans for Lords reform have

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certainly got some of the Lords a leaping. But it has also got

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members of the House of Commons hopping mad. Nick Clegg insists

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that Lords reform is a central part of the Coalition's programme for

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government. But 70 Conservative backbenchers look set to rebel.

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Tomorrow evening there will be a crucial vote on what is known as

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the programme motion, which would allow the Government to guillotine,

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or cut short, future debates. Without it, the bill may never get

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passed. That would delight the rebels. The veteran Conservative MP

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Sir Nicholas Soames says the Bill must be defeated at all cost.

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Labour are in favour of reform but argue that the Government's

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proposals are seriously flawed, so they will line up with the rebels

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to block the programme motion. Lib Dems say that the Tory rebels are

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going back on a clear commitment. And they accuse Labour of

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undermining their claim to be a progressive party. James, what

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exactly is given to happen? We had 70 Tory rebels, what does it mean

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if they all vote against the motion with Labour? Does that mean the

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government will lose? Yes, but proviso is that all Labour MPs vote

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against the government and all independent and minorities party's

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vote against the government. We know what the government majority

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years, it is about 80. In technical terms you need the rebellion of

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over 42 even have a chance. You have 70 Conservative MPs who put

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their name to this letter today saying they think this is a bad

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bill and they also think the Bill But they do not definitively say

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they will vote against the government tomorrow night, and

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there is clearly a difference between writing a letter and

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walking through the division lobby in your government. But it shows

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how difficult it will be for the government to win their vote. A lot

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of time for on twisting and for the Prime Minister to make personal

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calls but it is still a very big ask for the government to win.

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tense is it at Westminster between all these various divisions?

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depends who you talk to. Some Conservative MPs say, yes their

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whips have been in touch but they have not had before heavy-handed

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pressure, simply because a lot of these people have been public in

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their opposition to Lords reform for some time. The mixture of the

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carrot and stick is being deployed. I think both sides of the coalition

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realise it is one of those issues that could drive a wedge between

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them, the Conservatives say this is a Lib Dem priority and we should

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not be doing this and the Lib Dems saying, this is something you

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signed up to in the coalition agreement. That is where the

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tension is, rather than between angry whips trying to persuade big

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guys to go with them. Thank you, James Landale.

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With us now is the Conservative MP, Conor Burns, Liberal Democrat peer,

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:15:10.:15:12.

Lord Oakeshott, and the Labour MP, So you will resign as a ministerial

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aide? It probably means that I will be sacked. What does your boss

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think? My boss is passionately in favour of House of Lords reform.

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What does he think about you voting against the Government? I think his

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view that it is refreshing that somebody is prepared to lay down

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their job in support of a long-held, passionate belief. How many other

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people do you think will be in the same city I do not know. I know

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there is at least one other, and I know of six further who

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passionately agree with me, but will choose to stay in the

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government. This letter, you have not signed up to it, presumably

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because... I believe my name actually is on that list. Do you

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understand that there is a fear amongst your Tory colleagues, and

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amongst the Liberal Democrats, that you just cannot pick and choose

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within this coalition, and you are in breach of that. We were very

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clear in our manifesto that we would try to establish a consensus.

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The joint committee failed to establish that consensus. The

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coalition is incredibly important. For example, Lord Oakeshott left

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the government over the economy. The central wasn't -- reason that

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the coalition was reformed was to have economic stability. This is a

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matter of principle, and what is it that the Liberal Democrats are so

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upset about? The Tory MPs have set out their case, and they are

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sticking to it, there was not a coalition government which said

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that they would go forward and agree on proposals, just that you

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would set them out. Just a minute, it was in the manifesto of each of

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the three main parties, that we would reflect on the House of Lords.

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The impression I get is that it is reasonably Amicus between the MPs,

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but there is more tension in the House of Lords. -- reasonably

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amicable. I think there is the feeling that somebody is trying to

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throw them out of a rather agreeable old people's home. But in

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general, within the coalition, we are united, it is the policy of all

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three parties. Let's get a bit of perspective - it is completely

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wrong that the laws of this country are voted on by people who have

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been him pointed either by prime ministerial patronage or by kings

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from years ago. This is a basic democratic principle, and certainly,

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Chris Bryant and myself, we have had commission after commission,

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and both of us were on the joint committee of 10 years ago, so we

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have had plenty of time to discuss it, and now it is time to get on

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with it. Do you agree that it is time we had a second chamber which

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is elected, not appointed? I feel uneasy about any constitutional

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reform, because we have had a functioning democracy for a very

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long time. I am worried about people's priorities. We have just

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had a debate about banking reform. I just wonder about the Taxi For

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Dave -- the relevance of this at the moment. The people who make the

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laws on this are elected in the House of Commons. The danger is

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that you will be creating a rival chamber. And we have to vote on

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this in the same way. We accept 80% of all amendments made by the House

:18:50.:18:54.

of Lords to our legislation. It is a great way of revising and

:18:54.:19:02.

improving legislation. We make the laws, like the Commons. He is

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factually wrong. It is worrying when Conservatives cannot get their

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history right. First of all, often, laws start in the House of Lords

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and we end up revising them in the House of Commons. In that regard,

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the two chambers have absolute parity. They are complementary.

:19:21.:19:27.

all right, but they are not always revising. Secondly, the vast

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majority of changes done in the House of Lords are done by the

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government. There are things which should have been done in the

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Commons, but they end up getting done in the House of Lords. In the

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last two years, there have only been 241 votes in the House of

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Lords. If you had an elected second chamber, I believe you would make

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the House of Commons to which job better. I do not think we have a

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perfectly -- perfectly functioning democracy in this country, I

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disagree on that point. They have scrutinised very successfully in

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the House of Lords health legislation, for example...

:20:03.:20:09.

they do it better in the House of Lords than in the House of Commons?

:20:09.:20:16.

One at a time, please. There is an awful lot of nonsense talk about

:20:16.:20:19.

what a wonderful revising chamber and everything the House of Lords

:20:19.:20:23.

is. There are some people with expertise, but there are also an

:20:23.:20:27.

awful lot of has-beens, frankly, an awful lot of people who are only

:20:27.:20:31.

there because they have given a million pounds to Tony Blair or to

:20:31.:20:36.

Margaret Thatcher. It is deeply corrupt. There is no way of

:20:36.:20:39.

appointing peers to the House of Lords without corruption, it is a

:20:39.:20:45.

basic principle. So, why isn't Labour-voting for this? I support

:20:45.:20:52.

the bill. Because it is opportunistic? You asked me a

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question, grumpy! Adam Mynott allowed to be grumpy? No, you are

:21:00.:21:05.

not! There are problems with this bill, and I want to improve it. It

:21:05.:21:09.

is important, because you need time to do it properly. Let me give you

:21:09.:21:15.

one example. The whole page of the programme motion specify is that we

:21:15.:21:20.

will only be allowed two days, about 11 hours of debate, to do the

:21:20.:21:24.

first laws, the most important one, which deals with every single

:21:24.:21:28.

element of the composition of the House of Lords. That's roughly six

:21:28.:21:32.

hours of voting, let alone any time to debate things like, whether

:21:32.:21:36.

there should be bishops in the House of Lords, whether it should

:21:36.:21:41.

be 100% elected, they are not allowing enough time. This is why I

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think it is important that we vote against. Do you buy the argument

:21:46.:21:49.

that Labour are not going to vote for the programme motion, which

:21:49.:21:56.

could mean that in the end, the reform fails? Labour, and I have

:21:57.:22:02.

paid tribute to those who were in favour of genuine reform. But they

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have to compromise, because in the House of Lords, you get a different

:22:05.:22:09.

picture. I genuinely hope that some of the reformers on the Labour

:22:09.:22:13.

benches might not vote for the programme motion tomorrow. The

:22:13.:22:17.

danger is that if that programme loses, this is the one opportunity

:22:17.:22:23.

in my lifetime, certainly, to get it through, but if it loses, Ed

:22:23.:22:26.

Miliband has said that they will still vote for the closure on

:22:26.:22:32.

individual filibusters, so it would not be the end of the world. What

:22:32.:22:36.

happens to the coalition if that programme motion is voted down?

:22:36.:22:41.

gets much more difficult. But no- one is making threats, we are just

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saying... We say to everybody, including Conor Burns, it is very

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difficult for us, some of the things we have had to vote for,

:22:51.:22:56.

things like tuition fees, and if they do not co-operate with us, it

:22:56.:22:59.

will be harder to get Liberal Democrat MPs to vote for certain

:22:59.:23:05.

things. Conor Burns, what do you say to that, that is a threat, a

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warning, let's put it that way, if you do not vote with the government.

:23:12.:23:17.

Matthew is being buried temper it today, which is unusual. The deal

:23:17.:23:23.

that was done was honoured. This is very important - some of us are in

:23:23.:23:26.

favour of reform of the House of Lords, we would like to limit the

:23:26.:23:29.

numbers, we would like to strengthen the Independent

:23:29.:23:32.

commission, but what this bill proposes is the abolition of the

:23:32.:23:35.

House of Lords, which is a very different thing altogether. And

:23:35.:23:39.

actually, there is the case for reform of the House of Commons, a

:23:39.:23:44.

point which was made by Chris Bryant. I would just say to the BBC,

:23:44.:23:47.

please, in the next few months, do not get obsessed about the process

:23:47.:23:53.

of this, it is about the substance. In the end, how we distribute power

:23:53.:23:56.

within the British political system, which is what the House of Lords

:23:56.:24:01.

does, is essential to our politics. At the moment, it is unsustainable,

:24:01.:24:06.

it has got more than 800 members. At this rate, every single member

:24:06.:24:10.

of the Liberal Democrat party will be a member of the House of Lords.

:24:10.:24:16.

That is true. It is too big, that is absolutely true. But it is they,

:24:16.:24:23.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, who did that. I am totally in favour of

:24:23.:24:29.

removing hereditaries. What about the coalition? The coalition came

:24:29.:24:36.

together because of the economy, and that remains the central focus.

:24:36.:24:42.

I should not be in that place, none of us should be in that place.

:24:42.:24:48.

Where you Can Leave, taken leave of absence! If you are the last

:24:48.:24:52.

hereditary peer to be elected, elected hereditary, I know it is

:24:52.:24:57.

weird, but he only has his seat because the first person who had

:24:57.:25:01.

his barony was put into the House of Lords in 1911 by the Liberals,

:25:01.:25:05.

to make sure the bill got through. So, it is about time we had some

:25:05.:25:13.

change. What do you think, looking at it from the coalition, do you

:25:13.:25:18.

think it will survive? I think it is very important that the exciting

:25:18.:25:21.

education reforms which the coalition are working through at

:25:22.:25:28.

the moment should be protected by them continuing to work together.

:25:29.:25:33.

am going to have to let you all go. I will try not to be as grumpy in

:25:33.:25:36.

the future, Chris Bryant. If I told you teachers in England were being

:25:36.:25:40.

urged to pin up notices on their walls reminding them to stay calm

:25:40.:25:43.

and to remember the names of the children, you might think I was

:25:43.:25:48.

making it up, but I am not. It is the latest attempt to get pupils to

:25:48.:25:53.

behave themselves in their schools. The checklist is the brainchild of

:25:53.:25:57.

our guest today, Charlie Taylor. We sent our correspondent back to

:25:57.:26:03.

school to find out if it might work. A few years ago, this primary

:26:04.:26:13.

school was in trouble. Wistaston Green Primary School was in trouble

:26:14.:26:17.

with bad behaviour. But thanks to the efforts of Linda Davis and her

:26:17.:26:22.

team, it came off the sick list in less than a year. It is now

:26:22.:26:25.

clocking up above average ratings in English and maths. It took a lot

:26:25.:26:30.

of hard work, and a version of this, Charlie's checklist. It is the

:26:30.:26:33.

brainchild of the Government's adviser on classroom behaviour,

:26:33.:26:37.

Charlie Taylor. It is simple, a list of ideas and instructions,

:26:37.:26:43.

stuck up on the wall, so that head teachers, teachers and pupils, have

:26:43.:26:48.

a daily reminder of behaviour. It includes advice like, keep the

:26:48.:26:54.

buildings clean, stay calm, and, remember the names of the children.

:26:54.:26:57.

If the words bloomin' obvious are coming into your mind, you might

:26:57.:27:02.

not be alone. I am all in favour of the Government emphasising

:27:02.:27:07.

discipline. It was one of the things that I was keen on. A child

:27:07.:27:12.

who is out of control is learning nothing. But do you not -- but you

:27:12.:27:15.

do not manage to do that by little gimmicks, and a checklist which

:27:15.:27:20.

pupils can see is a bit of a gimmick. But here is the thing. It

:27:20.:27:24.

may be obvious, but around here, they reckon it works. We all need

:27:24.:27:31.

checklists. We use checklists for new staff, for induction, we know

:27:32.:27:36.

that surgeons use checklists, airline pilots. We are only human,

:27:36.:27:40.

and we can forget. If we are under stress, that is the very time when

:27:40.:27:45.

we are likely to forget the basic, essential things. To my mind, a

:27:45.:27:51.

checklist is a very useful document. Maybe, that teachers cannot live by

:27:51.:27:55.

a list alone. Perhaps a more fundamental, time-consuming and

:27:55.:27:59.

expensive issue needs to be addressed. I think traditionally we

:27:59.:28:03.

have not spent enough time making sure that teachers can take control

:28:03.:28:08.

of the class, earn respect and make sure that it is carried through out

:28:08.:28:12.

into the playground and into the community. Even checklist

:28:12.:28:17.

cheerleaders think that Blunkett might be onto something. I believe

:28:17.:28:20.

young teachers on training courses need more training in managing

:28:20.:28:24.

behaviour. That is for the simple reason that we can have the best

:28:24.:28:28.

lesson in the world, differentiation, all sorts going on,

:28:28.:28:33.

but if you can not -- cannot deliver it, and manage behaviour,

:28:33.:28:39.

following the key points on the checklist, it can all fall apart.

:28:39.:28:42.

Checklists may sound like the bloomin' obvious, but sometimes,

:28:42.:28:47.

the bloomin' obvious works. Perhaps the bigger question is, what else

:28:47.:28:50.

does the Government have up its sleeve to make sure that no child

:28:50.:28:58.

is left behind? Reception, are we ready? What a well-behaved class.

:28:58.:29:02.

With us now, the general secretary of the National Union of Teachers,

:29:02.:29:10.

Christine Blower. Cannes come to you first of all, Charlie Taylor,

:29:10.:29:15.

what do you think of the accusation that it is all a gimmick? That was

:29:15.:29:22.

a good example, that school in Crewe, Linda Davis took over at

:29:22.:29:26.

school when it was in a real state, and look at it now. She made a good

:29:26.:29:31.

point, and lines and surgeons all use checklists for things like

:29:31.:29:36.

washing your hands before doing an operation, or things like that.

:29:36.:29:40.

Teaching is an incredibly complicated job at times. But just

:29:40.:29:43.

like Linda Davis was saying, it is about getting the simple things

:29:43.:29:47.

right. Surely it is a given that they will remember the names of the

:29:47.:29:50.

children, that they will stay calm, that they will know what lesson

:29:51.:29:56.

comes next. One would assume that planes would not take off without

:29:56.:30:00.

enough fuel in the tank, and yet they have it on their checklist. It

:30:00.:30:04.

is the same with surgeons, one would assume that they would wash

:30:04.:30:08.

their hands. When we are excited about the brilliant lesson we are

:30:08.:30:13.

going to deliver, actually, we can forget to do those basic things.

:30:13.:30:17.

you think that is right, is it just as simple as having a checklist

:30:17.:30:27.
:30:27.:30:32.

This is called Charlie's checklist. There are lots of different types

:30:32.:30:36.

of checklists which have been operation before Charlie came up

:30:36.:30:42.

with this idea. The fact is, the vast majority of primary kids have

:30:42.:30:45.

a really good experience because teachers are making sure that

:30:45.:30:49.

everything is in place, and I slightly disagree with David

:30:49.:30:56.

Blunkett. The idea that saying what is accepted in the classroom is not

:30:56.:31:02.

a gimmick, it is a good idea. It is the adults and children having a

:31:02.:31:06.

shared understanding of what is happening so they can be ready to

:31:06.:31:12.

do their learning. Does any of that work if you have very disruptive

:31:12.:31:20.

pupils in that class? Relying on a ladder of success, is that going to

:31:20.:31:27.

keep the class engaged and keep the disruptive pupils under control?

:31:27.:31:29.

need absolute consistency so that children know what they are going

:31:29.:31:39.
:31:39.:31:40.

into. There are children who need the additional support and

:31:41.:31:46.

attention, but making sure that the classroom is well rewarded and

:31:46.:31:50.

consistent helps for the vast majority of children. His behaviour

:31:50.:31:55.

getting worse in the classroom? think teachers would say there are

:31:55.:32:00.

a group of anxious, often young children coming into schools who

:32:00.:32:05.

are more aggressive, but the general standards of behaviour are

:32:05.:32:09.

continuing to improve and when I started teaching in the late 80s,

:32:10.:32:16.

there was much worse behaviour. There were no-go areas in schools

:32:16.:32:21.

with you did not fancy walking in break times. I think teachers have

:32:21.:32:25.

done a fantastic job of improving behaviour. But if it is getting

:32:26.:32:32.

worse and certain groups, is that exposing ineffective teaching?

:32:32.:32:39.

Teaches that survive, they survived 20 years ago, are struggling now

:32:39.:32:44.

because they are not good enough? People need to have more expertise

:32:44.:32:52.

when we are dealing with the relief -- really troubled children. The

:32:52.:32:56.

checklist is about keeping things simple and well organised but there

:32:56.:33:01.

is a group of children who require little bit extra and that is where

:33:01.:33:06.

we need training, expertise and support. And that costs money.

:33:06.:33:10.

There is a huge amount of money being spent already on these

:33:10.:33:15.

children. Schools are spending a fortune on things like teaching

:33:15.:33:20.

assistants who support children who have not had the expertise they

:33:20.:33:28.

need to deliver. Is the problem that what teachers need sometimes

:33:28.:33:33.

is a bit of personality? No-win your subject is marvellous but

:33:33.:33:37.

sometimes you need a bit of... you look at the teacher or mad

:33:38.:33:46.

video? The vast majority of teachers have to be like that. What

:33:46.:33:49.

Charlie his singing is that in general, behaviour is better than

:33:49.:33:55.

it ever was. -- What Charlie is saying. There is a small group of

:33:55.:34:00.

difficult young people and we need something additional for them, but

:34:00.:34:05.

all teachers need to look at the way that he managed behaviour

:34:05.:34:09.

because if you can't manage the behaviour in the classroom, you

:34:09.:34:13.

can't do the teaching in the first place. Michael Gove mentioned

:34:13.:34:19.

returning to O-levels? It is a good and time the argument to be having.

:34:19.:34:25.

A lot of people feel there has been graves inflation, that GCSEs are

:34:25.:34:31.

not worth the O-levels that I did many years ago. Therefore it is

:34:31.:34:35.

important there is a debate about that and we cannot have people

:34:35.:34:40.

feeling that what we are doing now is not good enough. Thank you.

:34:40.:34:44.

So any sign that things are calming down for the summer? Doesn't look

:34:44.:34:48.

like it! In a moment, we will talk to a couple of political hacks who

:34:48.:34:51.

we have flushed out from the dark corridors of Westminster. But first,

:34:51.:34:56.

As we have heard, the week starts with the coalition's sternest test

:34:57.:34:59.

yet. MPs are discussing Lords reform today and tomorrow. The

:34:59.:35:02.

Treasury Select Committee is due to ask questions about the Barclays

:35:02.:35:05.

Libor banking debacle. Paul Tucker, the Bank of England's Deputy

:35:05.:35:08.

Governor, is up today. Barclays chairman, Marcus Agius, will be

:35:08.:35:10.

quizzed tomorrow. And, also tomorrow, French President Francois

:35:10.:35:13.

Hollande arrives in London for talks with David Cameron. By

:35:13.:35:16.

Wednesday, social care comes to the fore when the government's care and

:35:16.:35:20.

support white paper is debated. And believe it or not, Wednesday will

:35:21.:35:27.

be the last PMQs before the summer Let's talk now to our political

:35:27.:35:30.

hacks, Torcuil Crichton, of the Scottish Daily Record, and Craig

:35:30.:35:35.

Woodhouse, the Sun's new political correspondent. Can the Coalition

:35:35.:35:40.

survive the week? It will certainly be the biggest test for the

:35:40.:35:45.

coalition. Rebels are thinking, Tory rebels, that they will be able

:35:45.:35:51.

to hit David Cameron with his biggest revolt yet. I think more

:35:51.:35:58.

like 80. The Lib Dems are spitting feathers. They are saying, we have

:35:58.:36:01.

had to march through the lobbies on things we don't like, now you have

:36:01.:36:09.

got to do it on this. It is a huge test. The Lib Dems are saying

:36:09.:36:14.

uncharted territory. Is it a leadership problem for David

:36:14.:36:20.

Cameron if he cannot deliver his MPs through these division lobbies?

:36:20.:36:26.

It is a basic issue of maths. If 100 people are rebelling, you have

:36:26.:36:30.

five or six parliamentary aides, which I think is towards the Top

:36:30.:36:34.

End, if he cannot maintain their discipline then yes, he has a

:36:34.:36:40.

problem. Some Tory MPs saying last week Liam Fox giving a big speech

:36:40.:36:50.
:36:50.:36:51.

on Europe, David Davis batting hard on her Lords reform. One to banking.

:36:51.:36:56.

We have heard Ed Miliband make his speech on proposals to improve the

:36:56.:37:00.

culture within banking but how easy is it for Ed Miliband to take the

:37:00.:37:04.

moral high ground when Labour has to take responsibility for what

:37:04.:37:08.

when it on in the past? He does take responsibility for what

:37:08.:37:15.

happened in the past. The when Ed Miliband gave us his conference

:37:15.:37:19.

speech last autumn about predatory capitalism, none of us had a clue

:37:19.:37:25.

what he was talking about. We certainly have an idea now. It

:37:25.:37:29.

seems that Ed Miliband has once again been ahead of the game. He

:37:29.:37:33.

spoke last year about the squeezed middle. We did not know what he was

:37:34.:37:39.

talking about until we got our winter fuel bills. George Osborne

:37:39.:37:44.

is delighted, this is the second week that we have started a Monday

:37:44.:37:51.

not talking about the Budget, and he is using the Libor rate fixing

:37:51.:37:57.

scandal as the club to beat the Labour Party with. This cuts

:37:57.:38:00.

through to 2015. This is about George Osborne saying, you cannot

:38:00.:38:05.

trust these guys with the banks and the economy, this is what they did

:38:05.:38:10.

the last time. Ed Miliband is hitting back and saying, I am the

:38:10.:38:15.

guy with a vision on how to deliver responsible capitalism and banking.

:38:15.:38:19.

It is fascinating stuff. We will hear from Paul Tucker this

:38:19.:38:28.

afternoon. Would it be revealing? If you listen to what some of the

:38:28.:38:31.

Treasury Select Committee members have been saying, probably not! We

:38:31.:38:36.

are useless at getting to the bottom of these things. The one

:38:36.:38:40.

question people want answered is, who were these Whitehall figures

:38:40.:38:45.

talking to Bob Diamond and the bankers about lowering Libor?

:38:45.:38:51.

know who has denied it. But is it this legitimate, let's try and get

:38:51.:38:56.

Libor down to help British business in the crash? In which case that is

:38:56.:39:01.

probably illegitimate. But these are questions we do not know the

:39:01.:39:05.

answers to and hopefully we will get to the bottom of them. If not,

:39:05.:39:09.

maybe it will be down to the parliamentary inquiry. One of the

:39:09.:39:14.

issues that is deemed huge in terms of the future planning his social

:39:14.:39:18.

care. Labour sources have said there have been no cross-party

:39:18.:39:26.

talks since February, which I've found astounding. How do we pay for

:39:26.:39:32.

care? The issue of our age. There have been reports about this, the

:39:32.:39:38.

idea that social care should be capped at �35,000 over a lifetime.

:39:38.:39:43.

We would all take out insurance against to pay for that. The

:39:43.:39:47.

government agrees in principle with this but it is not putting any cash

:39:47.:39:53.

forward. It would cost 1.7 billion to set this up. There is no money.

:39:53.:39:58.

They say they will look at this again in 2014. Labour are cross

:39:58.:40:03.

because they were not included in talks to come up with this plan. We

:40:03.:40:07.

will have a ding-dong, but nothing is going to happen this side of an

:40:07.:40:14.

election on that. Thank you both. Joining me for the rest of the

:40:14.:40:17.

programme are the Conservative MP, Jessica Lee, Liberal Democrat MP,

:40:17.:40:26.

Martin Horwood, and Jenny Chapman for Labour. Welcome. Jessica, we

:40:26.:40:31.

heard Creek raising the point from your colleagues that their

:40:32.:40:35.

politicians on the Treasury Select Committee are useless at holding

:40:35.:40:41.

bankers to a count. Andrea has done a fantastic job on the Treasury

:40:41.:40:46.

Select Committee. She is in force to be reckoned with. I think we are

:40:46.:40:50.

all waiting to see the evidence of the Select Committee and see how it

:40:50.:40:55.

pans out but I think this whole issue about the bankers, the

:40:55.:41:00.

reality has hit us all and we are now in the starting position. We

:41:01.:41:07.

need to move things forward and bring shame sh. But on the point

:41:07.:41:12.

that perhaps they did not go far enough, why not have a judge

:41:12.:41:17.

inquiry if people feel that politicians are not doing their job

:41:17.:41:24.

probably? We do not need a judicial inquiry. We need to politicians to

:41:24.:41:29.

get to grips. We need a joint inquiry with in parliament. It

:41:29.:41:33.

doesn't stop any investigations being done separately, that can

:41:33.:41:37.

continue in terms of criminal matters. But this is something that

:41:37.:41:42.

should be dealt with within the Houses of Parliament. Paul Tucker,

:41:42.:41:49.

a former deputy of the Bank of England, coming forward. The point

:41:49.:41:54.

that Labour has made is that what we need is not a panel of MPs

:41:54.:41:58.

asking these questions, we need people who are properly trained and

:41:58.:42:05.

qualified. What would you like to hear him say? Labour wants to see a

:42:05.:42:09.

proper inquiry into banking led by a judge and it is not for me to

:42:09.:42:13.

suggest what those questions should be. Ed Miliband has set out today

:42:13.:42:18.

what he would like to see with banking. He wants to see more

:42:18.:42:22.

diversity on the high street. If you look back ten years, there was

:42:22.:42:27.

a multiplicity of banks in the country. There were building

:42:27.:42:31.

societies in every town. We need to give consumers more choice and work

:42:31.:42:37.

out how we get from where we are now two will meet to be. Was it a

:42:37.:42:40.

defining watching George Osborne and Ed Balls going fought each

:42:40.:42:45.

other in parliament? particularly edifying, no, but that

:42:45.:42:50.

is what you get. People are angry about this and that lays out in the

:42:50.:42:55.

Commons chamber and there is nothing wrong with that.

:42:55.:43:00.

questions the Bank of England have to answer. The first, with that

:43:00.:43:05.

they were giving some kind of nod and wink to the Libor process,

:43:05.:43:09.

which is supposed to be a purely mechanical process, or was

:43:09.:43:13.

something fishy going on? If they thought something fishy was going

:43:13.:43:19.

on, why don't they do something about it? It is a test for Ed

:43:19.:43:24.

Balls's light touch regulation regime. This is why we need a

:43:24.:43:27.

Banking Reform Bill and why we need to get much tougher on regulating

:43:27.:43:32.

activities of the banks to make sure this does not happen again.

:43:32.:43:36.

The test last week in that debate was for George Osborne to back up

:43:36.:43:39.

the allegations he was making about Ed Balls and he absolutely failed

:43:39.:43:45.

to do that, and that is why the debate was so bad tempered.

:43:45.:43:50.

Balls was the banking minister at the time. I think part of the

:43:50.:43:56.

lack of acknowledgement, I think, by the Labour Party... Although Ed

:43:56.:44:01.

Miliband has said this morning. am talking about last week. I am

:44:01.:44:07.

talking about today. Part of this frustration is that at times people

:44:07.:44:11.

need to stand up and say, we do get that wrong, we need to take

:44:11.:44:16.

responsibility. That was part of the issue. But do you give credit

:44:16.:44:23.

to Ed Miliband for doing that today? I have no difficulty with Ed

:44:23.:44:28.

Miliband saying that today but it is long overdue. What about Bob

:44:28.:44:33.

Diamond? He should get as little as possible. He has brought the whole

:44:33.:44:38.

industry into disrepute. The eye D he should be rewarded with more

:44:38.:44:42.

than �20 million of shareholders' money is obscene -- the idea.

:44:42.:44:46.

was not in breach of his contract and did build up one of the most

:44:46.:44:52.

successful investment banks. Define success. I am not sure boxes looks

:44:52.:44:58.

like a successful banker right now. -- Barclays looks like. This is

:44:58.:45:03.

something we have to look at. Vince Cable has been very clear. Lib Dems

:45:03.:45:08.

have been talking about this... Working out the mechanics of this

:45:08.:45:12.

are quite complicated. We have been telling banks to become more

:45:12.:45:15.

secured through the mechanics of how you force them to do what they

:45:15.:45:20.

need to do, to lend to small businesses, the engine of recovery,

:45:20.:45:24.

we need to do more on this. fascinating thing is that Vince

:45:24.:45:31.

Cable is outraged by Bob Diamond's bonuses but is unable to do a

:45:31.:45:37.

single thing about it. That is the proper. We have had two years, you

:45:37.:45:41.

had 13 and you didn't manage to do anything. What Ed Miliband is

:45:42.:45:47.

saying today... Vince Cable, I am sure, will come up with stronger

:45:47.:45:57.
:45:57.:45:59.

Why have these cross-party talks failed? That is a question for

:45:59.:46:04.

Andrew Lansley. Labour is very, very happy to engage in these talks,

:46:04.:46:08.

if the door is wide open. What the Labour Party does not want is a

:46:08.:46:17.

political row about this. We cannot afford to mess about, because there

:46:17.:46:20.

has been in action on this issue for many, many years. It is a key

:46:21.:46:26.

issue for all of us. We all have ageing relatives. We are all going

:46:26.:46:34.

to be old ourselves. It concerns everybody in the country. I welcome

:46:34.:46:39.

what comes this week, I think the coalition government have done a

:46:39.:46:49.
:46:49.:46:49.

huge amount to move this issue on. How have they moved it on? If you

:46:49.:46:55.

look at who has led with this issue in House of Commons, it is clearly

:46:55.:46:58.

the Conservative Party, supported by the Liberal Democrats on this

:46:58.:47:04.

point. It is the Conservatives who have been leading the debates in

:47:04.:47:11.

the House of Commons. And we have now got agreement... The main thing

:47:11.:47:15.

in the Dilnot report was the idea of a cap on the amount any

:47:15.:47:20.

individual should pay towards his or her own care, do you agree with

:47:20.:47:26.

that? I want to see how the debate pans out. On a personal level, this

:47:26.:47:29.

is one of the most important issues we're going to have to deal within

:47:29.:47:32.

this entire parliament. I don't know the why those cross-party

:47:33.:47:37.

talks, if that is right, have not been going ahead, but I hope there

:47:37.:47:42.

can be some progress on this. have they not? Everybody comes on

:47:42.:47:45.

to this programme and says it is the biggest problem facing society,

:47:45.:47:54.

and yet we have not managed to get agreement on one single proposal?

:47:54.:47:58.

The most bizarre thing is that of course we have actually got a

:47:58.:48:03.

proposal from Dilnot. It could be the money attached to this. Who

:48:03.:48:08.

knows where the logjam has happened? All I know is that the

:48:08.:48:11.

Lib Dem minister involved in this is deeply committed to finding a

:48:11.:48:15.

way to progress on the reform and the funding of social care. It is

:48:15.:48:18.

something he campaigned passionately about in opposition,

:48:18.:48:24.

so he must be as frustrated as everybody. There is a log jam with

:48:24.:48:28.

money, isn't there? Honestly, do you think the politicians will be

:48:28.:48:32.

able to agree, when they are so concerned with making savings and

:48:32.:48:39.

deficit reduction? I suppose in the end, if there are fundamental

:48:39.:48:42.

disagreement between the political parties, then it may be something

:48:42.:48:46.

which has to wait for the 2015 election. The Liberal Democrats

:48:46.:48:49.

would probably be happy to say that this would be something they would

:48:49.:48:55.

be happy to see funded to taxation. But I think we should just give the

:48:55.:49:00.

cross-party attempt a bit more time, to see if we can get a solution.

:49:00.:49:05.

is not about whether we pay for it or not, it is how it is paid for.

:49:05.:49:10.

This has got to be paid for, it is how we do it. Before the last

:49:10.:49:14.

election, the Labour Party made a proposal on how it might be done,

:49:14.:49:19.

and got its fingers badly burned, the Tories Corder to death tax. We

:49:19.:49:24.

have got to get well away from this territory. -- the Tories called it

:49:25.:49:31.

a death tax. We have taken a few knocks already in the last two

:49:31.:49:35.

years, and Salomon anything in the next week or so will threaten the

:49:35.:49:44.

coalition. -- and I don't think anything in the next week or so.

:49:44.:49:47.

might just have to use up the summer holidays to discuss House of

:49:47.:49:51.

Lords reform, it is a bizarre way to spend your time, though. This is

:49:51.:49:56.

not the most important thing on the Government's agenda. It seems to be

:49:56.:50:01.

quite important. It is important to us, we have gained -- we have been

:50:01.:50:08.

campaigning for it for 100 years. But that is why a programme motion

:50:08.:50:13.

which threatens to blow everything else out of the way, and spend

:50:14.:50:18.

endless amounts of time discussing Lords reform, it seems a bit out of

:50:18.:50:24.

proportion. So, you're saying that they should be worrying about the

:50:24.:50:29.

boundary review? It is dangerous to get into this tit-for-tat politics.

:50:29.:50:33.

The point is, a deal is a deal. It was in the coalition agreement, it

:50:34.:50:38.

was in the Tory manifesto. It is clearly a bit of a test of David

:50:38.:50:41.

Cameron's leadership that he can deliver members of his own party,

:50:41.:50:46.

on this matter. It is a test of David Cameron's leadership? I think

:50:46.:50:52.

it is a test of lots of things over the next few days, including how is,

:50:52.:50:59.

as a country, have our second chamber. I think it is going to be

:50:59.:51:05.

quite a fascinating period. will you vote? I am voting with the

:51:05.:51:09.

Government, I have always been in favour of House of Lords reform,

:51:09.:51:15.

quarter to consistent on that. It has been said a lot, but it is true,

:51:15.:51:19.

this has been lined up for more than 100 years. I think we have a

:51:19.:51:24.

genuine opportunity here to improve our second chamber. Any message for

:51:24.:51:29.

rebels in your party? I would say, there are some people who have had

:51:29.:51:33.

passionate views strongly against reform for many years, and I

:51:33.:51:38.

respect their position. But I think if other people are more concerned

:51:38.:51:41.

about specific details, I'm sure they will take the opportunity to

:51:41.:51:51.
:51:51.:51:54.

discuss that with their whip. was very subtly put! We have heard

:51:54.:51:57.

from some of your colleagues, saying they're going to vote

:51:57.:52:01.

against, in other words, they could talk and talk about Lords reform,

:52:01.:52:05.

but it might block up other legislation. A our position is very

:52:05.:52:10.

simple. We think 10 days is not enough. It is not a complicated

:52:10.:52:20.
:52:20.:52:22.

position. We have had years. That is exactly the point. Suddenly, the

:52:22.:52:28.

Government wants to settle this within 10 days. 10 days! It is not,

:52:28.:52:33.

it has been months, with the review, the commission, people know that.

:52:34.:52:37.

If the Government feels confident about this, which I would question,

:52:37.:52:43.

to win the argument in parliament, it needs more than 10 days. It was

:52:43.:52:49.

-- if it was confident to win this without using the whip in the

:52:49.:52:55.

lobbies, then it would give it more than 10 days. Labour is the party

:52:55.:52:59.

off Kier Hardie, Clement Atlee and John Smith, so the idea that they

:52:59.:53:04.

are going to effectively sabotaged a reform of the House of Lords, and

:53:04.:53:08.

effectively to end hereditary peerage, would be bizarre. I'm sure

:53:08.:53:12.

there will be talent to debate it on this programme anyway. Let's

:53:12.:53:17.

find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, what is the

:53:17.:53:27.
:53:27.:53:28.

official beer of the 2012 London Olympics? What is the correct

:53:28.:53:35.

answer? Heineken. Well done. I have to say, that's very good. Does it

:53:35.:53:43.

matter, what the official beer is of the Olympics? It is not ideal.

:53:43.:53:46.

But I would say, this country, we are having a spectacular year with

:53:46.:53:51.

the Jubilee, the Olympics is another opportunity to showcase our

:53:51.:53:55.

talent to the entire planet, and I think there will be many

:53:55.:53:59.

opportunities for many British companies. In Derbyshire, we have a

:53:59.:54:06.

real growth in micro-breweries at the moment, in my constituency. And

:54:06.:54:09.

I genuinely think this is a fantastic opportunity for the

:54:09.:54:15.

country.. And the brand of the beer does not matter? It is not ideal,

:54:15.:54:20.

but it is not the most important thing in the world. It kind of

:54:20.:54:29.

matters, I would prefer it if it was a beer from Cheltenham. I'm

:54:29.:54:33.

afraid these big sponsorship deals are crucial to the Games. I am

:54:33.:54:41.

pretty cross that the French state is the official electricity

:54:41.:54:45.

supplier, we do not have to be heavy about every single dodge deal

:54:45.:54:48.

to accept that these are important to the Games. We do not have to

:54:48.:54:56.

drink it. I don't think you're allowed to bring your own, actually.

:54:56.:55:02.

What is the official water?! What about you? I think it matters a

:55:02.:55:08.

huge amounts. Beer is part of Britishness. This is not the best

:55:08.:55:14.

product, I would say. And I have found out it is going to be sold at

:55:14.:55:22.

�4.24 a 330 ml bottle.. How much is it normally? A lot less than that.

:55:22.:55:25.

I think it is a shame that families will be getting ripped off when

:55:25.:55:28.

they go to these games. They will not have a choice about what they

:55:28.:55:34.

can buy, and it is being sold at very high prices. There is the

:55:34.:55:38.

point about it having to be a big company to be able to pay that kind

:55:38.:55:42.

of sponsorship deal? That is the sad thing about brewing in this

:55:42.:55:46.

country, then, isn't it? We have got some great businesses here,

:55:46.:55:51.

making fantastic products, great breweries, and it is just a shame,

:55:51.:55:57.

I think. If you had a choice, apart from your Cheltenham one, which one

:55:57.:56:02.

would it be? It would be a mixture from our micro-breweries in

:56:02.:56:08.

Derbyshire. We will come back to you on that one! We all know that

:56:08.:56:14.

political exchanges can get a bit heated, with the occasional raised

:56:14.:56:20.

voices. Even the odd bout of fisticuffs. But have you ever seen

:56:20.:56:30.
:56:30.:57:03.

-- have you ever seen anything like I like the way they have bleeped it,

:57:03.:57:07.

because none of us can understand what the swearwords were. None of

:57:07.:57:14.

you aren't, are you? I left the firearms at home today. Were you

:57:14.:57:18.

shocked by that? A little. Maybe they were discussing the reform of

:57:18.:57:23.

the Jordanian parliament. Nothing like that has ever happened yet on

:57:23.:57:28.

The Daily Politics. Have you ever lost your temper on live TV? No, I

:57:28.:57:35.

have not, no. No cause to, not yet. But what makes you really angry?

:57:35.:57:39.

Has there been a debate or a subject which has really got you

:57:39.:57:46.

going? I did once walkout on Yvette Cooper during a Westminster debate.

:57:46.:57:50.

We were discussing Labour's regional strategies, and she was

:57:50.:57:54.

basically saying that the local consultations did not matter. So I

:57:54.:57:59.

thought, in that case, no point staying. I stomped out, which was

:57:59.:58:04.

silly, really. When I go to primary schools, I do say, I think your

:58:05.:58:08.

behaviour policy is much better than the House of Commons. I think

:58:08.:58:11.

the shouting and jury in the House of Commons does a lot of damage. It

:58:11.:58:21.
:58:21.:58:22.

is much better if people can keep a lid on their tempers. -- shouting

:58:22.:58:30.

and jeering. Everybody sees PMQs at home, but we know that there is a

:58:30.:58:34.

huge amounts to a cross-party work, select committee work. Of course

:58:34.:58:37.

there are disagreements, but actually, the things that get me

:58:37.:58:41.

going in life, it is not disagreements on policy or ideas,

:58:41.:58:46.

it is all to do with people who are bad manners or -- bad-mannered or

:58:46.:58:51.

Jo Coburn has the latest political news, interviews and debate with Charlie Taylor, the government's expert adviser on behaviour. Christine Blower, general secretary of the NUT, discusses how to improve behaviour in schools.

Plus Lords reform with Conservative rebel MP Conor Burns.


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