10/09/2012 Daily Politics


10/09/2012

Jo Coburn is joined by the founder of moneysavingexpert.com, Martin Lewis to discuss all the latest political news. Plus coverage of the Our Greatest Team parade in London.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon. Welcome to The Daily Politics. The unions appear

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to be having a grand day out at their conference in brighten town.

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But are more strikes looming? We will be speaking to Brendan Barber,

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the General Secretary of the TUC. just want to say what a golden

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summer it has been. It has given the country a tremendous lift. It

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has brought the country together. We will be looking back at

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Britain's golden summer of sport and asking just what we can learn

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from it. Can this man succeed where others have failed? He wants to

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slash-and-burn red tape. We will see how he will do it. And we will

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be asking if the Government can actually do anything about the cost

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of living. With us for the first half an hour today, the founder of

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moneysavingexpert.com, Martin Lewis. Welcome back. First today, let's

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talk about the London Olympics. Alas, it is over. Today, around one

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million people are expected to line the streets of London to cheer

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Britain's Olympic and Paralympic heroes. This is what the Prime

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Minister had to say earlier. At the end of the most unbelievably

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successful Olympics and Paralympics, I just want to say what a golden

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summer of British sport we have had, and what a golden summer it has

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been for the country. It has given the country a tremendous lift, and

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it has brought the country together. It has given us memories that we

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will be talking about for years and generations to come. I think 2012

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will be like 1966, something we talk about without children and

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grandchildren, something which will continue to delight us, long after

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this time has passed. We can speak now to one of

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Britain's greatest Paralympians, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson.

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Presumably you would agree, it has been the greatest a Olympics and

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Paralympic Games ever. It has been amazing, not just because of Team

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GB and ParalympicsGB, but because of the organisation. Seb Coe's idea

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was to put athletes at the heart of the Games, and it has made it an

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amazingly enjoyable experience for everybody. David Cameron said the

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UK will -- Lord Coe also said that the UK will never think of

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disability in the same way - do you agree? Definitely. There has been a

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change of perception. People were coming out of the venues talking

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about the sport, much less about the disability. I did not hear

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people talking about overcoming adversity, which was a great relief

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to everybody. But it is difficult to measure how attitudes will

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change going forward. But I think people are more positive about

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disabled people. One year on, it is important that we remember back to

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how everybody felt at this time. The Olympics and Paralympics, they

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are not reality, they are fairy dust. That glow will disappear.

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you think it will be different this time, or do you think that in six

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months' time, all of that euphoria will have faded? I think they will

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definitely have moved forwards. There is a real glow about how

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everybody feels at the moment, but I Dusan so different attitude from

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people. People are coming up to be in the streets, saying, I have seen

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disabled people in a new way. I have realised that I am one step

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away from it myself. Anybody can have an accident and it can change

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their lives. Yes, that in itself can be hugely positive. All this

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talk about harnessing the spirit of the Paralympics, it is all very

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well to say it, but how does it work? Part of it is about how we

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can join everything up after deep for tears. In politics, we talk

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about sport or health or education, and it would be great to link all

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of those up. There will be children turning up at sports clubs, wanting

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to be the next Victoria Pendleton, or the next Sarah Storey. Then they

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will realise how hard it but we have to think about how we can

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change the culture of participation. We are becoming more unhealthy as a

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nation, and that needs to change. It sounds amazing in the background,

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so have a great afternoon on the parade.

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Martin Lewis, your impressions, I used adages over? Very much so. I

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am a proper track-and-field fan, I go to track-and-field events during

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the year. So this was really special for me. And also, it cannot

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be underestimated how much it means to have four or five weeks off the

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doom and gloom of the economy. It is good for the psyche of the

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nation. Now, we have to manage ourselves back into hearing about

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the euro crisis and everything. also think it is good for the

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country, we have shown that we can organise things very well,

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efficiently, and that people in this country will really get into

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things. The white elephant in the room is the enormous amount of

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money that this has cost. In a way, it almost feels like, let's not get

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back into that just yet. Will we recoup what we spent or even come

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close to it? But the truth is, that money has been spent, we are never

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getting it back if we do not recoup it, everybody has had a good time,

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so let's celebrate that. But the real question now is, what colour

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medal will be good for legacy? Has the money gone far enough? Teva the

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jury is still out on that. We will be talking a bit more about whether

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politicians have managed to get some of the Stardust and whether

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the economy has benefited, later in the programme. Now, let's talk

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about red tape. The Government says it wants to get rid of it, or at

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least, rather a lot of it. Hundreds of thousands of businesses across

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the UK are to be exempted from health and safety inspections,

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under new changes to be introduced next year. It is what ministers are

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calling a blitz on red tape, which will see 3,000 regulations

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affecting businesses in England scrapped or overhauled. Joining us

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now from brighten is Martin Smith of the GMB union. The Government

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says this is all to help business - surely it is a good thing? It is a

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rehash of an old announcement which was made 18 months ago. We have got

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to look at the politics of it. Our view has not changed, which is that

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this sends the wrong message to small and medium businesses, who

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might hear that the inspection regime has changed, so they might

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think they are exempt from health and safety rules. We think it will

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save hardly anything, it actually, some people will get into trouble

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with their health because of it. It is just not worth doing. So the

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Government is obviously not going to get your support, but does that

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apply to all of these 3,000 regulations? Well, we do not know

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the detail of these regulations, but we are very concerned to make

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sure that our members enjoy a health -- healthy and safe work

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place. We know that 10% of our members, in retail, for example,

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have had an accident in the last year, meaning that they have had

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time off work. We spoke to two major retail change, and they said

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to us, they do not think these changes will help them. They need

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regulations to help them manage risks in the workplace. Which

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retail chains are these? We have a lot of members in major retail

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change, and two of the big four, we have spoken to this morning. --

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retail chains. They are saying, they need to manage risks, they

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agree with us, they need the regulatory framework. They need to

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make the workplace save, not only for their work force, but for

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shoppers as well. What do you make of the new Business Secretary

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saying, he wants business to react positively to this? He says he will

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be championing business in his new department. I'm sure he will do

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that. And the unions will champion the interests of working people.

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That is perfectly understandable. But when it comes to health and

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safety, we work together with employers, where we can, to limit

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the number of accidents and unhealthy work practices. We do not

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want to be chasing after employers, after an accident has happened, so

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we want a good regulatory framework. But surely, there is also room for

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you to be championing small businesses, to take on more people,

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to free them up from some of the restrictions and limitations, even

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if it is only for a limited amount of time? Well, some of these

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limitations which they talk about are making sure that there are

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enough wheels on the chairs in the office, making sure there are no

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trip hazards. Any responsible employer would do this anyway. I do

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not see how this can be a saving for small businesses. It is good

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business practice. Unfortunately, some employers will get the message

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from this announcement that they are no longer applicable, and

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people will get hurt as a result. Of a business minister who I just

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mentioned is with me now. Let's just pick up on one of those points,

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the possible increase in accidents, and actually, he says, two major

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retail chains do not really want this kind of relaxation of

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regulation? We are not talking about relaxing regulation on any

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kind of high risk area. That means construction sites, chemical plants,

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care homes. This is about things like office premises. I visited an

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Internet entrepreneurial office today. These are not high risk

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environments, but they are still at the moment subject to health and

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safety checks, checks which really are not necessary. We think there

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is an awful lot that can be done indeed to help the health and

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safety people focus on the important areas which are indeed

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high risk. Talking about cutting 3,000 - have you got a list of all

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of these regulations? Yes, we have been on the case since the

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coalition government started. There are around 20,000 regulations

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altogether. Some of those are purely nominal. We consulted

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business and others, such as charities and voluntary

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organisations, to ask them to tell us which of these regulations

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really impact on them. There are around 6,500 which really have an

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impact. I want to see around 3,000 of those, nearly half of them,

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either scrapped or significantly overhauled, to minimise the cost to

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business. Call me a cynic, but every government has talk about

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this area, even since the days of Michael Heseltine - why do we have

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any faith that you will do any better than anybody else?

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Governments have pledged this before, I accept that. We are doing

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it again, but we have been on the case for two years. What does that

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mean? We have challenged business to tell us which of the regulations

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are getting in the wake, which challenged charities as well, who,

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for example, have to have criminal records checks every time somebody

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moves. That can be streamlined. Do you need paper driving licences any

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more? There is an awful lot of stuff which can be simplified.

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is this going to happen? It will happen from now on. It will go on

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until the end of next year. It is an extremely talented and timetable.

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regulations by the end of 2013? -- challenging.. How will you know?

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are going to report to Parliament. We may miss that target, but we

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will try. Not another failed target. We have never done this before,

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with a specific number. We have got to try, we have got to do

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everything possible, to help business create new jobs. You have

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got this target of 3,000 regulations by 2013, and you may

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not get all of them - how much money will it save the economy by

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then? We have already saved through the regulations we have already

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done, the red-tape cutting, some �850 million. Of these 3,000...

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do you measure that? You try to make an assessment of the actual

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cost of each individual regulation, if businesses did not have to do

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this. For small companies, they have not got time to do this, so

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they have to pay for a consultant to come in and do it. So, you can

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measure some of the costs. They do not all involve cost. For example,

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everybody has to have a no smoking sign on their premises, which has

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to be displayed in a particular way, with exactly the same wording -

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why? What is your response to this? Everybody wants to get rid of

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unnecessary regulation, but what about the point raised by the union,

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that actually, this will be disadvantageous? We all hate red

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tape and regulation, but we all think that employee protection is

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an important thing. This is a question of language. Looking at

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consumer issues, there are a number of ridiculous regulations. The one

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on money laundering requirements, for example, which says that if you

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want to open a bank account, you need paper statements, but then, we

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are encouraged to back online, so we do not have paper statements.

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you trust the Government to make sure they are picking the right

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ones? No, I slightly wary about the less a fair attitude. We have pay-

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day lenders, with pathetic, Tsar of regulation. We have claims

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companies bursting a pall over the place, which in many cases is not

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necessary. If these are totally unnecessary, I am sure we are all

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with you on things like the paper driving licence. We welcome back.

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On the other hand, please not too laissez faire.. Is it really going

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Small businesses create the next jobs. We have got to help them do

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it. This somebody sets up an enterprise, you cannot put pan

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signs on avoiding hassle when you are trying to focus on running and

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institution or a business. So that will be welcomed. One of the

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biggest obstacles may be your boss. The Vince Cable said very clearly

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it is nothing to do with site washers, it is a demand issue.

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went on to say that sensible deregulation is supported, it is

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sent the coalition agreement. Everybody supported. It is in the

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agreement that we are going to do it that is why we started the red

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tape challenge, and all Ministers are part of this agenda, as are all

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of the other departments. We have got other Ministers asking if they

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need that bit of red tape. How are you getting on with Vince Cable?

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Very well. Relations are fine. you text in like Ed Balls? We are

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talking. We are from different parties, we have different

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perspectives and occasionally different language, but all

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Ministers in the Department, five Conservative and two Lib Dem, are

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working together. I think we have just got time, because it is the

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TUC conference, we wanted to hear from Brendan Barber, because one of

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the boroughs will be any potential strike action. Let's hear what we

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had to say -- the worries. Congress, it is time for change. The

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Government's strategy is failing Britain, the economy is on its

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knees, services are being devastated and society is becoming

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more fractured, as benefits are cut for the poor, while taxes are

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slashed for the rich. Austerity isn't just some temporary sacrifice.

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It could be with us for the duration. A self- perpetuating

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economic nightmare. It is already beginning to happen. Beyond the

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boutiques of Notting Hill and the mansions of Kensington, there is

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another country, a Britain of boarded-up high streets,

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pawnbrokers, food banks, a Britain of stratospheric inequality, where

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the rich float free and the poor sink further into penury. A Britain

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of hopes denied for millions of our young people. Brendan Barber, the

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outgoing general secretary of the TUC. A divided Britain, failed

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economic policies. No, we have cut tax for everybody, not just for

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entrepreneurs, and we are reforming the benefit system, yes, but that

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is to help people who are working hard and are prepared to go for

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those jobs. But to squeeze on living standards. There has been a

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squeeze because of what has happened with energy prices, food

:18:35.:18:38.

prices and commodity prices. The Government to try to help by

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freezing council tax and by raising the personal allowance. Can they

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really do anything? We will be talking about this later on, a

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public sector pay freeze, food is on the rise, petrol is still high,

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it is tough. Certainly, it has been a very tough time and the problems

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in the eurozone and the world economy with rising food prices

:18:57.:19:01.

have gone on far longer than people predicted, but the Government has

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been tried to help and the economy is now revving up. With no growth?

:19:06.:19:10.

We don't know if there is no growth, there have been encouraging signs

:19:10.:19:13.

in the last few weeks that the economy may well be starting to

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grow again and we need to pick that point and get behind British

:19:17.:19:20.

business when it does. There is talk of co-ordinated strike action,

:19:20.:19:24.

what is the message? I would be very sad if that happened, that is

:19:24.:19:27.

not in the spirit of what we have seen of the Olympics and the

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Jubilee, when people have been getting behind the country. The

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public sector still has over all better wages than the private

:19:34.:19:38.

sector, it enjoys higher pensions, even though the contributions have

:19:38.:19:42.

been reformed and I think it would be a great shame that at the point

:19:42.:19:46.

at which we need the economy to start growing again, if we had a

:19:46.:19:50.

damaging strikes. A what is your view about the unions? Brendan

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Barber is leaving at this particular point, but there is the

:19:53.:19:58.

threat of court later strike action because he sees things extremely

:19:58.:20:03.

different theatre Michael Fallon -- of strike action for? I have no

:20:03.:20:06.

problem with strike actions as employee showing their displeasure,

:20:07.:20:10.

but when it becomes a political point and is done as a political

:20:10.:20:15.

action over the fact that the Government has been elected of the

:20:15.:20:19.

day is not doing what people want, I find that more difficult, because

:20:19.:20:23.

that is a democratic process. Labour did not get in, we have a

:20:23.:20:28.

liberal and Conservative pact and they are doing what the electoral -

:20:28.:20:31.

- Elektra to put them in full. Unpleasant as it is, so striking

:20:31.:20:36.

when things are manifestly wrong, I am completely in support. Trying to

:20:36.:20:40.

disrupt the economy for the elected political party, I find more of a

:20:40.:20:44.

wrench. A you will want to avoid strike action, so is there any

:20:44.:20:48.

chance at of reopening talks on pensions or the pay freeze? I think

:20:48.:20:51.

the trade unions though they still enjoy better pensions than the

:20:51.:20:54.

private sector, who in many cases don't have them, and they know that

:20:54.:20:58.

because people are living longer, contributions have to increase, but

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I do think they will think again -- I do hope they will think again,

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because they went BSP disruption to the economy, there will be

:21:08.:21:11.

disruptions to parents and everybody else, people trying to

:21:11.:21:15.

get to work -- they won't just be disruption. My call Fallon, good

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luck with your bonfire of the regulation -- Michael. We will have

:21:18.:21:22.

you back before the end of 2013 to see how many sheep have got rid of.

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As we have seen, the conference of the Trades Union is under way in

:21:28.:21:35.

Brighton, with delegates calling for radical changes to the

:21:35.:21:37.

Government policies, including the three-year pay freeze and

:21:37.:21:40.

industrial action. There is one motion that says consideration

:21:40.:21:43.

should be given to the practicalities of a general strike.

:21:43.:21:47.

The trade union brings together 54 units with 6.2 million members and

:21:47.:21:51.

they are not happy. General Secretary Brendan Barber says the

:21:51.:21:55.

governor's economic policies have failed. Last year saw the biggest

:21:55.:21:58.

buy-out -- day of industrial action for decades, hundreds of thousands,

:21:58.:22:01.

maybe millions, of public sector workers went on strike over changes

:22:01.:22:06.

to pensions. Now the TUC has organised another day of action on

:22:06.:22:10.

20th October. They wanted end to the three-year pay freeze and the

:22:10.:22:15.

public sector, the not below- inflation 1% pay rises that the

:22:15.:22:18.

Chancellor has demanded for the next two years. They also say that

:22:18.:22:22.

Government cuts will mean 700,000 public sector job losses and higher

:22:22.:22:25.

unemployment. Without a radical change of approach, the countries

:22:25.:22:31.

could be facing years of stagnation. Brendan Barber is in Brighton,

:22:31.:22:34.

welcome to the programme. Should the public be prepared for more

:22:34.:22:37.

strikes in the autumn as the unions try to make their point about the

:22:37.:22:45.

economy? We may see more disputes and some of my colleagues in major

:22:45.:22:50.

public service unions indicated that that is a possibility, but

:22:50.:22:54.

look, I hope that the Government will realise that the biggest

:22:54.:22:57.

argument of the lot here is about the failure of their policies to

:22:57.:23:02.

get any growth in a our economy. There has been no growth since the

:23:02.:23:06.

coalition came to office. We really need a change of course to give

:23:06.:23:10.

people some sense of hope and to begin to restore people's living

:23:10.:23:15.

standards. So you don't support the idea of Cordery to strike action,

:23:15.:23:21.

or even the idea being debated about a general strike -- co-

:23:21.:23:24.

ordinated strike action? That is not the way forward in your view?

:23:24.:23:29.

did not say that. Decisions on strike action are taken by members

:23:29.:23:33.

and by individual unions through their proper procedures and

:23:33.:23:39.

certainly from the TUC's position, we very much stand ready to support

:23:39.:23:44.

unions that make that decision and to co-ordinate unions, particularly

:23:44.:23:47.

Unions working together in the same sector, teachers' unions and local

:23:47.:23:52.

government unions, health unions. We very much work to provide that

:23:52.:23:59.

ordination. What is it going to achieve? Last year, we saw the

:23:59.:24:03.

biggest day of strikes for decades and it didn't achieve anything. The

:24:03.:24:06.

Government is not going to reopen talks on pensions, we had from the

:24:06.:24:11.

Business Minister, or reopen talks will change their policy on pay. --

:24:11.:24:16.

or change. I hope that they do reconsider some of their policies

:24:16.:24:21.

on key issues like pay, and certainly on the issue of pensions,

:24:21.:24:27.

I think the determination of Trade Unionists to support the action

:24:27.:24:32.

that took place, and it was unprecedented, 30 unions in

:24:32.:24:35.

November taking industrial action together, that was a major factor

:24:35.:24:41.

in persuading the Government to revise key proposals on pensions.

:24:41.:24:49.

But, look, I want to see some genuinely new thinking to get our

:24:49.:24:53.

economy moving again. We have got this huge squeeze on living

:24:53.:24:57.

standards that people have been facing, real-terms pay cuts for the

:24:57.:25:00.

last three or four years, stretching out now into the future.

:25:00.:25:05.

The Government are saying they are determined to impose a pay cap for

:25:05.:25:10.

the next two years of only 1%. How long is this misery going to go on?

:25:10.:25:14.

Particularly when it is not delivering what it is supposed to

:25:14.:25:19.

be delivering. Borrowing levels are going up. Do you not accept,

:25:19.:25:23.

Brendan Barber, that the economy needs to be rebalance? That there

:25:23.:25:27.

has to be a greater private sector creating wealth, creating jobs, and

:25:27.:25:31.

fewer people employed by the state, particularly in jobs that are not

:25:31.:25:38.

delivering anything? What we need, I don't think we need a rebalancing

:25:38.:25:42.

in that crude simplistic way, less public sector and more private

:25:42.:25:47.

sector, we need economic growth. And it is economic growth that will

:25:47.:25:50.

deliver higher living standards and also, incidentally, deliver better

:25:50.:25:55.

public services. We need a decent it funded, well resourced public

:25:55.:26:00.

services, but we are not getting that growth, unlike other major

:26:00.:26:04.

economies that have seen some recovery since the crisis hit by a

:26:04.:26:09.

whole world back in 2008. The United States, other major European

:26:09.:26:12.

economies, they have recovered the ground that was lost in the depths

:26:12.:26:18.

of the recession. Our economy is still over 4% smaller than before

:26:18.:26:23.

the crash. And government policies have got an awful lot of

:26:23.:26:27.

responsibility for that is more, dismal economic performance. The --

:26:27.:26:32.

dismal. You are suggesting more money should be spent by the

:26:32.:26:35.

Government, added to the current borrowing figures and that the

:26:35.:26:38.

public sector should stay the same size and that should be supported.

:26:38.:26:43.

What do you think that will do to the economy? It is not as simple as

:26:43.:26:51.

that. Look, we need a real national project for growth. That has got to

:26:51.:26:54.

involve real investment in infrastructure. How much money

:26:54.:27:00.

would you like to see? There have been huge cuts in public money. One

:27:00.:27:03.

of the first decisions the new Chancellor made after the election

:27:03.:27:08.

was to cut the school buildings for the future programme, �6 billion of

:27:08.:27:13.

construction spending that was keeping people in work, modernising

:27:13.:27:17.

the school system, and the axe was taken to that virtually within the

:27:17.:27:22.

first week. We need money putting back into that infrastructure. We

:27:22.:27:27.

need major reform of our banking system, so it is delivering

:27:27.:27:31.

investment that supports the real economy. We need active industrial

:27:31.:27:35.

policy, recognising the sectors that have real potential for growth

:27:35.:27:39.

and putting the levers of public policy and funding behind those

:27:39.:27:44.

sectors. There are lots of areas where government can act.

:27:44.:27:48.

support this motion that has just been passed which means the banks

:27:48.:27:54.

should be nationalised? Has it just been passed at the TUC? We had a

:27:54.:27:58.

debate on two things, a motion and a statement at the congress this

:27:58.:28:05.

morning. I said to the Congress the idea of just nationalising all of

:28:05.:28:09.

the banks, as if it was a panacea, I don't think makes sense. And of

:28:09.:28:15.

course, we are very much aware that there would be potentially huge

:28:15.:28:20.

costs in doing that. But we do need, that doesn't mean to say, we don't

:28:20.:28:25.

need rage a reform of the banking system. -- major reform. We need it

:28:25.:28:29.

in a number of areas in terms of regulation, new institutions to

:28:29.:28:33.

make sure investment is getting out to the wider economy, then it's to

:28:33.:28:37.

be very radical reform. Just briefly before you go, coming to

:28:37.:28:41.

the end of a ten-year stint, you have been along time, what is your

:28:41.:28:48.

greatest achievement? -- eight long time. I find it hard to think about

:28:48.:28:54.

one or single thing. Because you have done so many? The TUC and the

:28:54.:28:57.

trade union movement play a very important part in the life of this

:28:57.:29:02.

country, in terms of these great debate about public policy and day-

:29:02.:29:04.

in, day-out, thousands and thousands of workplaces, millions

:29:04.:29:10.

of people's lives are made better by the work of unions, so I am very

:29:10.:29:13.

optimistic we have got a very important job to do for a long time

:29:13.:29:18.

to come. Brendan Barber, thank you very much. Martin Ellis, listening

:29:18.:29:26.

unions -- Martyn Lewis? Or is he striking a chord with public

:29:26.:29:29.

sentiment? If you talk to public sector workers, they don't like

:29:29.:29:33.

what has happened to their pensions, so they represent a large number of

:29:33.:29:37.

people. I don't think they are that out of touch. Nationalising the

:29:37.:29:41.

banks is not going to happen, but I have some sympathy in that we are

:29:41.:29:45.

mandated to have a bank account, that has to be seen as a public

:29:45.:29:48.

service and one million people not having them in this country is a

:29:48.:29:53.

disgrace, so we have to tweak it towards tighter regulation in the

:29:53.:29:59.

way that banks regulator in that -- work in that core product. But I do

:29:59.:30:02.

think we perhaps have cut back too much on regulation and do need more

:30:02.:30:07.

investment for growth. It is that constant friction between deficit-

:30:07.:30:10.

cutting and the need for investment and I think infrastructure projects,

:30:10.:30:15.

and I suspect they will come back, I think... The Government says they

:30:15.:30:19.

are about to come back and are ready to go. He is not that out of

:30:19.:30:23.

sync with mainstream opinion. the public in general do hate

:30:23.:30:33.
:30:33.:30:33.

strikes, because it is them who are If there is one thing many people

:30:33.:30:36.

like complaining about, apart from that, it is the cost of living. It

:30:37.:30:40.

is putting the squeeze on everyone's money. But can the

:30:40.:30:44.

Government do very much about rising prices? We sent David to

:30:44.:30:54.
:30:54.:31:01.

find out. Politicians will always tell you they are on your side,

:31:01.:31:04.

they are listening, and they are fighting to keep the cost of living

:31:04.:31:08.

down. And we always believe them, don't we? Do you think the

:31:08.:31:13.

Government is doing enough to keep the cost of fooled -- the cost of

:31:13.:31:20.

fuel and food down? Definitely not. Absolutely not. There is a lot more

:31:20.:31:24.

could be done by the Government. think people just have to be more

:31:24.:31:28.

careful with how they spend their money, and not obviously spend lots

:31:28.:31:36.

on cake. But is it actually fair to blame politicians for things like

:31:36.:31:40.

the cost of food, petrol, or commuting into work? Politicians

:31:40.:31:45.

are pretty powerless, actually, when it comes to global prices and

:31:45.:31:50.

food inflation. The price of oil going up or down, for example. They

:31:50.:31:54.

will sometimes blame it on the sunshine and things like that, but

:31:54.:31:59.

I rarely feel sorry for politicians. On this occasion, however, when the

:31:59.:32:04.

economy here is influenced by things abroad or by supply and

:32:04.:32:08.

demand, there are limits to what they can do. So what have they

:32:08.:32:14.

done? Well, personal tax allowances have been increased. Fuel duty

:32:14.:32:18.

increases have been postponed, and the Office of Fair Trading is to

:32:18.:32:22.

probe into the price of petrol. Rail fares are set to rise by

:32:22.:32:25.

double the rate of inflation next year. But are things as bad as they

:32:26.:32:32.

feel? Food, fuel and rail prices continue to increase, but they are

:32:32.:32:36.

increasing at a lesser rate than they were about a year ago. But the

:32:36.:32:41.

public's perception of that may be quite different. In fact, they

:32:41.:32:44.

perceive far higher increases in inflation that is reflected by the

:32:44.:32:48.

numbers. Here's some radical food for thought. Ministers should

:32:48.:32:52.

forget about public opinion and actually do less, not more, about

:32:52.:32:57.

the cost of living. The trouble is, politicians are judged by us all on

:32:57.:33:00.

what they do, and they feel they have got to do something on of the

:33:00.:33:10.
:33:10.:33:10.

time. Just make sure that you set broad parameters, and then let his

:33:10.:33:14.

knees get on with it. There are some examples of governments trying

:33:14.:33:18.

to mitigate the effects of the markets. In Asian economies, they

:33:18.:33:22.

have introduced subsidies for food and fuel at certain times. We find

:33:22.:33:26.

that very quickly, those public coffers are trained in the support

:33:26.:33:30.

of lower prices for consumers. Politicians like to believe that

:33:30.:33:34.

they have got on of the answers, but it seems the cost of living is

:33:34.:33:42.

largely outside of their control. We are joined now by the

:33:42.:33:45.

Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi. Can politicians actually do anything

:33:45.:33:50.

about the cost of living? Well, you can do some things. For example,

:33:50.:33:54.

make sure that the interest rate at which the government borrows it

:33:54.:33:58.

remains competitive. We have done that, for years, and food and fuel

:33:58.:34:03.

are still rising. I do not disagree. Commodity prices are going up. But

:34:03.:34:11.

on fuel, I think wrote is important that we continue to debate what the

:34:11.:34:15.

oil companies are doing, and we have had whistleblower as saying

:34:15.:34:20.

that this could be a price-fixing issue. Hold on. I always find this

:34:20.:34:25.

frustrating, when politicians talk about fuel, and talk about the oil

:34:25.:34:30.

companies. �1.40 per litre, the majority of that is tax. If you

:34:30.:34:33.

wanted to win a general election, one of the main things you would do,

:34:33.:34:37.

and I am not saying it is right to do this, would be to drop petrol

:34:37.:34:46.

prices down to �1. Ministers said to me recently, 200 of them, said

:34:46.:34:50.

to me, the first thing they would be doing would be to cut the price

:34:50.:34:58.

of petrol. Let me take you up on that. If we dropped it by 10p,

:34:58.:35:05.

which is dropping it quite significantly, and 1p lowered... I

:35:05.:35:10.

am not saying that his dramatic. We can do lots of stuff, we can start

:35:10.:35:16.

spending more now, Denmark has just done its, they have effectively

:35:16.:35:19.

done what Labour are calling for, borrowing more and spending more,

:35:19.:35:24.

but in the end, they are still in recession, the next generation has

:35:24.:35:28.

to pay the price for what we spend today. At the end of the day, you

:35:28.:35:31.

can do lots of popular things very quickly, to become more popular,

:35:31.:35:38.

but you will pay for them. That so much more honest answer. To say, we

:35:38.:35:42.

do have the ability to drop petrol down, but the best of the taxpayers

:35:42.:35:46.

would then have to subsidise the car driver. It is the fact, what

:35:47.:35:50.

annoys me, is that politicians do not use that type of language. We

:35:51.:35:55.

can cut gas and electricity prices, too. The question is, who will pay

:35:55.:36:01.

for it? The average energy price now is more than �1,300. The

:36:01.:36:05.

cheapest is �1,040. It is a charge for apathy. Those people who are

:36:06.:36:09.

financially illiterate pay more than serve the people, and wealthy

:36:10.:36:16.

people, like me, who know what we're doing. You cannot effect

:36:16.:36:22.

change on that -- you can change that by regulating the market more

:36:22.:36:28.

strongly, but you choose not to do that. The electorate needs honesty.

:36:28.:36:35.

Should politicians be more clear run these issues? You cannot get

:36:35.:36:40.

more honest than people saying, we have inherited a situation where

:36:40.:36:43.

there is no more money. Liam Byrne told us, good luck to you, there is

:36:44.:36:49.

no more money. You have got to balance the books somehow, when

:36:49.:36:54.

your borrowing �450 million per day. But when motorists said, �1.45 per

:36:54.:36:58.

litre is just too much, we have tried to do something about it, we

:36:58.:37:03.

have deferred some of the fuel duty rises. It is 10p less, not a huge

:37:03.:37:08.

amount of money, true. But my children, your children, our

:37:08.:37:14.

children, will have to pay, if we are irresponsible now. And it is

:37:14.:37:20.

the same with food prices as well, is it? There is no VAT on food, it

:37:20.:37:24.

is a very different case. Prices go up around the world, and you have

:37:24.:37:30.

got to try to do what you can. If interest rates go up by 1%, the

:37:30.:37:35.

money that we borrow, you will know better than anyone, what that would

:37:35.:37:40.

do to mortgage payments and all of the other payments. Yes, but we

:37:40.:37:45.

talk about quantitative easing, which is not really printing money,

:37:45.:37:49.

and if you look at PPI, it has put more money into the economy, done

:37:49.:37:53.

more for people with a lack of income, than quantitative easing.

:37:53.:37:56.

You could give people money. My biggest frustration, if I was

:37:57.:38:00.

sitting in your chair, the thing that would drive me up the wall, it

:38:00.:38:04.

is not going to be a quick fix, but the real thing we could do would be

:38:04.:38:07.

to have compulsory financial education in schools. If you did

:38:07.:38:11.

that then people would start to have an understanding of the

:38:11.:38:13.

differentials in gas and electricity. You would avoid a

:38:13.:38:18.

bloodbath which is coming when universal credit is introduced, and

:38:18.:38:22.

people who have been budgeting on a weekly basis, to doing so on a

:38:22.:38:26.

monthly basis, and I tell you, people are not financially literate

:38:26.:38:31.

enough to deal with that. Pensions as well. Why we do not have

:38:31.:38:34.

financial education in schools, you refuse to give people the tools to

:38:34.:38:37.

deal with these things. You cannot say people have to look after

:38:37.:38:42.

themselves, but not give them the tools. With huge respect to you, we

:38:42.:38:51.

are doing a lot on education. We are trying to make mathematics...

:38:51.:38:56.

Not on universal credit, when you move from weekly to monthly.

:38:56.:39:01.

that point was, what we are doing in schools. I have been campaigning

:39:01.:39:04.

on this for two years. It is all about having a deep understanding

:39:04.:39:10.

of maths before we move on from that. We need the basics right. We

:39:10.:39:14.

had 13 years when nothing happened. I have got to stop you both there.

:39:14.:39:23.

We will have to get you both on again. Now, after the excitement of

:39:23.:39:26.

last week's Cabinet reshuffle, become a what's in store for us

:39:26.:39:29.

this week. In a moment I will be speaking to a couple of political

:39:29.:39:33.

hacks who can give us the inside track. But first, a round-up. The

:39:33.:39:38.

TUC conference is taking place in Brighton. Brendan Barber's

:39:38.:39:44.

successor, the TUC's first female general secretary, speaks tomorrow.

:39:44.:39:48.

Plaid Cymru are also holding their conference this week in Brecon. The

:39:48.:39:51.

Hillsborough Independent Panel discloses its findings on Wednesday.

:39:51.:39:55.

The panel has analysed more than 400,000 pages of documents relating

:39:55.:40:00.

to the death of 96 Liverpool fans in 1989. Also on Wednesday, the

:40:00.:40:03.

latest unemployment figures are announced. The Government will be

:40:03.:40:06.

hoping for good news following positive unemployment figures in

:40:06.:40:11.

August. We can now go to college green, to speak to Sam Coates from

:40:11.:40:14.

the Times and Pippa Crerar, the City Hall editor of the Evening

:40:14.:40:18.

Standard. Starting with you, Pippa Crerar, on those unemployment

:40:18.:40:25.

figures, how much comfort can the Government take? I think it will be

:40:25.:40:28.

part of a bigger picture which is going on this week, which is that

:40:28.:40:32.

the Government is launching a new drive to boost growth. We have had

:40:32.:40:35.

announcements this morning about cutting red tape, and Vince Cable

:40:35.:40:38.

will be doing his industrial strategy later in the week. And

:40:38.:40:42.

then the unemployment figures are a third part of that. It is all part

:40:42.:40:45.

of the Government's drive to persuade us that they are back on

:40:45.:40:51.

track, that the memories of the botched Budget and a difficult

:40:51.:40:55.

summer are over, and that the economy is going to go places. We

:40:55.:40:59.

have had a reshuffle, we have got a focus on business policy this week,

:40:59.:41:02.

and they blew be trying to persuade people that the boom was over the

:41:02.:41:11.

weekend about plots and discontent with David Cameron are just that.

:41:11.:41:14.

Sam Coates, looking ahead to the growth figures, that's where

:41:14.:41:18.

everybody will be focusing their attention, because another

:41:18.:41:19.

contraction would be pretty devastating for the Government,

:41:20.:41:24.

wouldn't it? Absolutely. It is quite interesting. What we have

:41:24.:41:28.

seen over the weekend, Tory commentators close to George

:41:28.:41:32.

Osborne, and a handful of politicians, saying that all of a

:41:32.:41:35.

sudden, everything is on the up. Unemployment is going down, growth

:41:35.:41:39.

might have turned a corner, and that actually, after the Olympics,

:41:39.:41:44.

we should be optimistic about the economy. Experts, outside of the

:41:44.:41:46.

Westminster bubble will present a slightly different picture. They

:41:46.:41:49.

say we just do not know that the economy has turned a corner, we

:41:49.:41:52.

have absolutely no idea what is going to happen in the eurozone,

:41:52.:41:58.

either. It does not look like the banks have been successfully

:41:58.:42:02.

encouraged to lend, either. So, there is an attempt this week by

:42:02.:42:05.

Tory politicians to tell us that things are getting better, but I

:42:05.:42:09.

think viewers should be slightly cynical about that, it is no more

:42:09.:42:13.

than positioning before the party conferences. We have had the story

:42:13.:42:18.

about Colonel Bob Stewart, urged to stand as a stalking horse by two

:42:18.:42:23.

backbench colleagues - Sam Coates, what is the mood on the Tory

:42:23.:42:28.

backbenches? They were said to be pleased by the reshuffle, is that

:42:28.:42:33.

true? The stories about Bob Stewart a curious, I think they are several

:42:33.:42:36.

weeks old. But I think the discontent which has been generated,

:42:36.:42:41.

partly by the reshuffle, and partly by the ongoing malaise, is very,

:42:41.:42:47.

very real. I was picking it up, it was acute last week. I think there

:42:47.:42:51.

are people speaking about David Cameron's future. I'm not sure

:42:51.:42:57.

whether it will actually mean anything, but such is the depth of

:42:57.:43:00.

dislike and high feeling currently in the Tory party, I would not be

:43:00.:43:04.

terribly surprised if there were other people with half an eye on

:43:04.:43:07.

what might happen in the future. Last week was meant to see a

:43:07.:43:11.

reshuffle which would please the right, and indeed, David Cameron

:43:11.:43:15.

promoted people like Chris Grayling and Owen Paterson. But a hours

:43:15.:43:18.

before the reshuffle, I was speaking to one why his Cabinet

:43:18.:43:22.

minister who said, the problem with promoting the right is that the

:43:22.:43:26.

rest are left without jobs, and they will be just as upset as they

:43:26.:43:31.

always are. Pippa Crerar, speaking of relations between the back

:43:31.:43:36.

benches and the leadership, on the Labour side, we have just spoken to

:43:36.:43:41.

Brendan Barber, but this is a difficult moment for Labour as well,

:43:41.:43:46.

in terms of its relationship with the unions, isn't it? Very much so.

:43:46.:43:50.

Ed Miliband was speaking to union leaders this morning, but not

:43:50.:43:55.

appearing in front of the delegates. It is a tricky one, because Labour

:43:55.:44:01.

has decided not to oppose the pay freeze, the public sector pay

:44:01.:44:05.

freeze, and the unions are not happy about that. Also many on the

:44:05.:44:09.

left of the party, and on the backbenches, share that view. It

:44:10.:44:12.

will be to the good for Ed Miliband to balance the conflicting demands

:44:12.:44:20.

on him, as a pragmatic party leader, who wants to encourage mainstream

:44:20.:44:26.

opinion, to marry that with the views of his union paymasters, who

:44:26.:44:31.

provide about 80% of the party funding.

:44:31.:44:39.

We are joined now by our Monday MPs' panel. We are joined today by

:44:39.:44:49.
:44:49.:44:51.

By think it is fairly important that we keep up a relationship with

:44:51.:44:56.

the unions, it is a historic one and we can be mutually supportive

:44:56.:45:00.

and in our aims, we think that the public sector can do a very good

:45:00.:45:05.

job and it is not all about privatising the sector's -- the

:45:05.:45:09.

private sector. One is Ed Miliband hiding away? I don't stay if he is

:45:09.:45:13.

hiding away or not but the relationship between the unions and

:45:13.:45:16.

Labour will continue and I think it should continue, it has been good

:45:16.:45:21.

for the country that we have that relationship. Important in terms of

:45:21.:45:24.

labour's policy and reaction to the public sector pay freeze, unions

:45:24.:45:30.

are very upset. Did Ed Miliband do the right thing? I think in the

:45:30.:45:33.

circumstances, he did, because we are dealing with the reality of now.

:45:33.:45:36.

Would we have dealt with it defending government, the answer

:45:36.:45:41.

might be different. -- in government. The Government has now

:45:42.:45:44.

had to increase its borrowing because it got its economic

:45:44.:45:48.

strategy wrong and therefore, there is nowhere for the Government to go,

:45:48.:45:53.

but that is the Government's making rather than anything positive the

:45:53.:45:57.

Labour Party have done. Do you welcome the overtures coming from

:45:57.:46:00.

Labour politicians like Ed Balls towards Vince Cable, trying to

:46:00.:46:05.

forge closer links between the Lib Dems and Labour? With all of these

:46:05.:46:09.

things, I think there is a fair amount has been going on. In is it

:46:09.:46:13.

a good thing? A I think any dialogue between any of the party's

:46:13.:46:17.

in Westminster is sensible when we have such an enormous economic

:46:18.:46:21.

crisis. I think the unions to have a problem, because Labour

:46:21.:46:26.

themselves, the Labour leader supports the Government pay freeze,

:46:26.:46:30.

and that is very difficult and if the unions do decide to hold a

:46:30.:46:33.

general strike, I think it is the wrong thing for the country and it

:46:33.:46:36.

will put Labour in a very difficult position. Meanwhile, the coalition

:46:36.:46:41.

is focusing on what counts, the economy. People feel their living

:46:41.:46:45.

standards are being squeezed, a pay freeze continues as food and fuel

:46:45.:46:51.

goes up, don't you have some sort of sympathy? A I have some enormous

:46:51.:46:59.

-- I have enormous sympathy. As my colleagues said on Saturday,

:46:59.:47:02.

another by constituents came to see me on Saturday and even those

:47:02.:47:06.

working and in good jobs, it is difficult. The public to appreciate

:47:06.:47:11.

the country is in a mess. Economic click it is typical. The ban after

:47:11.:47:14.

two years of a coalition government? They should even after.

:47:14.:47:19.

If you compare how we are doing in this country compared to others, it

:47:19.:47:22.

is difficult for people to understand. They certainly don't

:47:22.:47:25.

understand are the private sector and even in the public sector,

:47:25.:47:28.

where it is hard, people understand they have to keep gritting their

:47:28.:47:33.

teeth. You agree with Vince Cable that it is not to do with supply-

:47:33.:47:39.

side measures, it is to do with the man? I think it is everything. If

:47:39.:47:43.

everything was as black as white as everyone who might say, we would

:47:43.:47:47.

sort it ages ago. It is complicated. Is it as restless on the

:47:48.:47:52.

backbenches as we heard from Sam Coates? Tories are very

:47:52.:47:57.

dissatisfied after that reshuffle. A I don't think the Tory

:47:57.:48:01.

backbenchers I told to are not dissatisfied. He why you talking

:48:01.:48:08.

to? The 2010 intake. Have we were elected under a pack form put

:48:08.:48:11.

forward by David Cameron and he is doing a good job -- a platform.

:48:11.:48:16.

What is your response to these stories of stalking? Why are people

:48:16.:48:20.

publicly admitting that they were asked to stand against the David

:48:20.:48:23.

Cameron, or people overtly criticising him or telling him to

:48:23.:48:27.

get rid of his Chancellor before the reshuffle? What was Bob

:48:27.:48:33.

Stewart's response to the stalking? That it was silly. Two backbench

:48:34.:48:37.

MPs asked him to do it. But Parliamentary party, in every party,

:48:37.:48:42.

is an ambitious pace. People who don't get jobs will always be

:48:42.:48:46.

dissatisfied. The reality is that I, along with any of my colleagues,

:48:46.:48:49.

want to see the coalition government getting on with the job

:48:49.:48:53.

of sorting out the economy and this talk of stalking horses and

:48:53.:48:56.

leadership challenge as, at this point in the political cycle, is

:48:56.:49:01.

silly. It is Tory MPs who are talking about it, with all due

:49:01.:49:08.

respect. It isn't the common Terry at, they are reacting to what has

:49:08.:49:12.

come from MPs? Did the reshuffle do what it was supposed to do in

:49:12.:49:17.

quelling doubts among backbenchers? Without doubt, and Michael Fallon

:49:17.:49:20.

were saying exactly the right things about cutting regulation and

:49:20.:49:22.

getting the economy moving and creating jobs and that is what a

:49:23.:49:26.

lot of us want to hear and where the focus to be. I had been a

:49:26.:49:30.

Conservative for a long time. I looked through the 1990s and I

:49:30.:49:34.

remember exactly what happened when you had a party divided and could

:49:34.:49:39.

not work with itself. Have things changed? Boundary changes have gone

:49:39.:49:43.

down in flames thanks to the Liberal Democrats, a watershed

:49:43.:49:47.

moment for Conservative MPs, ill to make it harder to achieve that

:49:47.:49:52.

majority? I was perfectly candid about this because I was one of the

:49:52.:49:56.

MPs whose constituency was scheduled to disappear. Actually,

:49:56.:49:59.

boundary changes were the right thing for the Government to do. We

:49:59.:50:03.

stood on a manifesto that said we would reduce the number of MPs,

:50:03.:50:07.

make the numbers more equal, so I am very disappointed that the Lib

:50:07.:50:16.

Dems are not going to support it. There was a coalition agreement and

:50:16.:50:20.

if it was not met, so be it. Boundary changes are off the table.

:50:20.:50:25.

Of what you say? You must be delighted in the Labour Party?

:50:25.:50:30.

Probably, yes, because I think some of my patch -- backbenchers called

:50:30.:50:36.

it the gerrymandering Bill, that was the purpose behind it, rather

:50:36.:50:39.

than what the Government said about reducing the size of the electorate.

:50:39.:50:45.

I was expecting add extra 1,000 majority on boundary changes. And

:50:45.:50:48.

as politicians, we tend to look very much on our own perspective,

:50:49.:50:52.

but I think what the coalition will discover is that constitutional

:50:52.:50:56.

reform can be difficult. It is very easy shouting from the opposition

:50:56.:51:01.

asking why don't she reform the House of Lords, which the Labour

:51:01.:51:04.

government did in taking away most of the hereditary peers, but

:51:04.:51:10.

getting everybody to agree it must be reformed is easy, what is that

:51:10.:51:14.

the colt is what the reform should be. It's would have helped if

:51:14.:51:19.

Labour would have supported us -- it would have helped. It wouldn't

:51:19.:51:24.

have taken 100 years. I was there during all the constitutional

:51:24.:51:27.

debates during Scottish devolution and never did we have a programme

:51:27.:51:30.

motion, the kind of programme motion we have Beck, it did not

:51:30.:51:35.

exist. Nor did we have night sought guillotines, because it was

:51:35.:51:40.

constitutional and taken on the floor or the House -- of the House.

:51:40.:51:43.

There was an attempt to stifle debate around what for many people

:51:43.:51:48.

was a very emotional subject. have been constant negotiations for

:51:48.:51:51.

over a year between the different parties. My disappointment was with

:51:51.:51:55.

Labour more than the Conservatives, because I knew the Tory Right would

:51:55.:51:59.

try and stop it, but for Labour to try and pretend they were

:52:00.:52:02.

supporting it while people in the know know that they killed it stone

:52:02.:52:05.

dead was a real shame for progressive politics. We could have

:52:05.:52:09.

got rid of the House of Lords. Disappointment all round. Back to

:52:09.:52:13.

the subject we are so familiar with, the straining of sinews, the

:52:13.:52:17.

pushing of limits, the Blood sweat and tears and that is just working

:52:17.:52:21.

of course on the daily politics, and the Herculean efforts of our

:52:21.:52:26.

politicians to hop, skip and jump onto the Paralympic and Olympic

:52:26.:52:36.
:52:36.:52:51.

bandwagons. Let's see them all in MUSIC: "Gold" by Spandau Ballet.

:52:51.:52:55.

I think it has lifted the whole country, it has brought people

:52:55.:53:05.
:53:05.:53:07.

together and I am very proud of I want to join the Prime Minister

:53:07.:53:10.

in paying tribute to everyone involved in the Olympic and

:53:10.:53:16.

Paralympic Games. Our athletes, our fantastic volunteers and indeed the

:53:16.:53:19.

whole country that united in support of Team GB and came

:53:19.:53:29.
:53:29.:53:32.

Every community in the country will be with the athletes every step of

:53:32.:53:38.

the way, each triumph, each setback, each joy, each sorrow, each victory

:53:38.:53:44.

and beach disappointment. I think it is really a great national event,

:53:44.:53:47.

a national coming together and it remains for me to say the very best

:53:47.:53:57.
:53:57.:54:06.

We so often allowed ourselves to believe we are a nation of gracious

:54:06.:54:10.

losers. We are actually a nation that likes that winning feeling and

:54:10.:54:13.

we have Team GB to thank for that, they have inspired the whole

:54:13.:54:23.
:54:23.:54:27.

I think the whole country look at what you did in all and

:54:27.:54:33.

stupefaction. The question is, how do we keep it going?

:54:33.:54:37.

Well, it has been a fabulous sum of sport and you can hardly blame the

:54:37.:54:42.

politicians for wanting to jump on that success bandwagon -- some of

:54:42.:54:47.

sport. Has any of the Stade has rubbed off for the Conservatives or

:54:47.:54:51.

the Liberal Democrats? -- Stardust? A I don't think it matters, what

:54:51.:54:54.

matters is we have a good legacy and those community grassroots

:54:54.:54:59.

sporting groups get out there and continue to attract the influx of

:54:59.:55:02.

people contacting them over the summer saying they wanted to try

:55:03.:55:07.

whatever sport, and we make sure that we have a good, healthy,

:55:07.:55:11.

active community taking part in lots of sport. There will be a

:55:11.:55:16.

spike, I am sure, in terms of participation, but everybody has

:55:16.:55:19.

and will talked about Legacy and we have heard politicians saying the

:55:19.:55:23.

confidence to deliver big things. What are these big things and what

:55:23.:55:27.

is being talked about? The biggest thing is to have a more active,

:55:27.:55:32.

healthier population. Not to do with the economy, then? The

:55:32.:55:35.

impression that you get from politicians there is they hope this

:55:35.:55:40.

will somehow inject some momentum into a fact-finding economy.

:55:40.:55:44.

think we showcased what is superb in Britain, delivering a fantastic

:55:44.:55:49.

event and of course she want there to be a put it in tourism, but I

:55:49.:55:54.

come from a background of local authority being a portfolio for

:55:55.:55:58.

leisure, and my big thing of the Olympics is I want to see people

:55:58.:56:02.

taking part out there. We can look at these pictures, thousands of

:56:02.:56:07.

people lining the streets of the parade and the support that has

:56:07.:56:10.

been seen all summer, particularly from volunteers... One of the

:56:10.:56:13.

things Vince Cable said is that business can learn from the

:56:13.:56:16.

Olympics and the Paralympics. What does he mean, Stephen Lloyd?

:56:17.:56:21.

Everyone should volunteer to help business grow? He hasn't phoned me

:56:21.:56:26.

to tell me what it means. The two different bits of Medicine that I

:56:26.:56:33.

think are incredibly significant -- Legacy, the legacy of volunteers,

:56:33.:56:37.

the 70,000 plus volunteers were just amazing. The lift they gave to

:56:37.:56:41.

the Games and the whole country was superb and the other thing, the

:56:41.:56:47.

legacy of perception. Disability is something I have been batting for

:56:47.:56:50.

for a long time and for the country and the nation as a whole to see

:56:50.:56:54.

the astonishing exploits of our Paralympian is, I think that all

:56:54.:56:59.

changed perception across the board about disability -- Paralympians.

:56:59.:57:03.

Everyone will agree on that but let's look at the specifics. All of

:57:03.:57:07.

those people have had a wonderful summer, people do feel good as a

:57:07.:57:10.

result of Team GB and the pulling together of the volunteers, as you

:57:10.:57:15.

say, but there have been reports in the paper that growing businesses

:57:15.:57:18.

will be surrounded by advisers in the same way that athletes are

:57:18.:57:23.

surrounded by their coaches. There is a sense that this -- this is

:57:23.:57:27.

rhetoric. What helped enormously for Team GB was money,

:57:27.:57:30.

straightforward investment of lottery cash, a lot of money went

:57:30.:57:35.

into sport and that is why we were successful. Is that is what -- is

:57:35.:57:40.

that what is needed? I agree there was money but also confidence. One

:57:40.:57:43.

thing Mike Politt will share with me on this, or prior to the

:57:43.:57:46.

Olympics the print media said it was going down the pan and the

:57:46.:57:49.

great British public decided they would love it and they proved to be

:57:49.:57:52.

right and I think confidence equally applies in business. What

:57:52.:57:57.

about the issue of money? absolutely needs money. The reason

:57:57.:58:00.

we have done so well as Team GB in Alan Pakes and Paralympics is

:58:00.:58:04.

because of the lottery money and that is the long and short of it --

:58:04.:58:09.

in the Olympics. The danger is that we will get a spike, we get on

:58:09.:58:12.

every year after Wimbledon, and that the enthusiasm will go on. I

:58:12.:58:17.

hope it does but I fear is that as we get further and further away as

:58:17.:58:22.

it gets more difficult, no more sporting events to engage in,

:58:22.:58:24.

hopefully the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow will get the same

:58:24.:58:28.

passion, but then once it is off the news, people forget about it

:58:28.:58:34.

and the money dried up. Caroline, your best moment? Undoubtedly

:58:34.:58:39.

Hannah Cockroft. A fantastic model for everybody, particularly women -

:58:39.:58:45.

- women in sport. If you go to the Paralympics? No, sadly, but I did

:58:45.:58:49.

go to Greenwich. Thank you to what you, enjoy the rest of this

:58:49.:58:51.

Jo Coburn is joined by the founder of moneysavingexpert.com, Martin Lewis to discuss all the latest political news.

As the Paralympics comes to a close there will also be coverage of the Our Greatest Team parade through London.


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