13/09/2012 Daily Politics

It will come to the Daily Politics. After the truth on Hillsborough,

the real truth, or where now for the victims' families? Andy Burnham

joins us to discuss the next stage in their fight for justice.

It is time for a shock to the system according to the Defence

Secretary, Liam Fox, he calls today for tax and welfare cuts to get the

economy were moving. Just what the doctor ordered or bad medicine? --

get the economy moving. We will discuss fresh calls today for a

rethink on protecting foreign aid. And what would you call this? Big

Ben? No. The clock tower? Know. The Elizabeth power? The right answer.

We will discuss the rebrand and ask if the new name will stick. -- the

Elizabeth Tower. All that in the next hour and with

me for the duration, broadcaster and commentator, erstwhile

political candidate Esther Rantzen. Welcome to the programme. Let's

start with what has dominated the news for 24 hours, Hillsborough. We

had a string of apologies yesterday after the publication of the report

of the Hillsborough independent panel, including from the Prime

Minister in the House of Commons but this morning we have had

another one from Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, who was editor of

the Spectator magazine and had published a controversial editorial

which many people in Liverpool found highly offensive. This report

lays to rest the false allegation was made at the time about the

behaviour of those fans, and a repeat that I was very sorry in

2004 or that the spectator did write an editorial that partially

repeated those allegations. I apologise them and I apologise now.

May I say that I hope that the families of the 96 victims will

take some comfort to from this report and that they can reach some

sort of closure. Boris Johnson apologising for an editorial he did

not right but his editor -- as editor, he carries the can. For his

new controversial day today with Jack Straw suggesting that the

Thatcher government in power at the time of the tragedy created a

culture of impunity around the police, contributing to the

handling of the events in April of 1989. Let's listen to what he had

to say. The Thatcher government, because they needed a police to be

a partisan force, particularly for the miners' strike, created a

culture of impunity in the police service and they really were immune

from outside influences. They thought they could rule the roost

and that is what we absolutely sock in South Yorkshire. Jack Straw

speaking on Radio 4 this morning. Andy Burnham, who has been a

leading campaigner over the Hillsborough business, joins us now.

Welcome to the show. Do you agree with Jack Straw at Hillsborough can

partly be explained by a culture of impunity among the South Yorkshire

Police? I think there was a culture and society in the 1980s where

certain groups were treated as second-class citizens and football

supporters were in that category. There was a casual disregard for

people's welfare and safety at football matches. Everything was

seen through the prism of hooliganism. That bred a culture of

negligence when it came to safety at football grounds, and sadly it

is one of the reasons, as laid out in the report yesterday, that we

saw so many terrible deaths. Jack Straw is blaming the Thatcher

Government for creating this culture. In return, he is saying it

was this culture of impunity that leads to what happened at

Hillsborough. Do you agree? I think it was a time where there was not

sufficient accountability. The police could do things and police -

- people had no way of fighting back. I think at the time, the

Government was very obsessed with the Football Supporters Bill, and

it saw everything as an issue of hooliganism. So Jack Straw is

right? I think the government of that time has questions to answer,

but so to everybody. How did Parliament allows such an injustice

to stand for so long and why did my own party not do more to help the

families? I think everyone needs to look at themselves and ask

questions about what they did or did not do and then we will get

towards some reconciliation. I do not think today is the day to make

it a party political point. A I'm glad you raised that. Was Mr Straw

right, at a time when there is party political consensus, with a

process started by you and other Labour MPs, continued by a

Conservative-led government, leading to a statement by the Prime

Minister preys on all sides, is it right to introduce party politics

to this? I am not sure he is. saying the Thatcher government

needed a police to be a partisan force! Let's not be shutting down

the debate when the panel has issued this report. There are

legitimate questions to be asked about the culture that existed in

the police force and the way in which the government of the day

handled it. Those are legitimate questions. Yes, the Prime Minister

was outstanding in the House of Commons last night and I was at

Liverpool last night, and we are not known for lavishing praise on

Tory politicians but he was receiving great praise from the

people of Liverpool and that is a good thing. But today, everyone has

questions to answer and this process of accountability needs to

start properly. If Jack Straw really thought that, rather than

making a party political point this morning, why did he make such a

mess of the investigation into Hillsborough? If he really thought

that, why did he not do more to get to the bottom of it? You had 13

years in power and if this is what you really thought... And yet Mr

Straw came up with a milk and water report. One about the media?

Everyone has questions to answer. - - what about the media. I said

sorry to the people of Liverpool that they had to wait so long. They

accepted what I have described as an establishment culpability, which

I think the report was. How can that report have looked at the fact

that 80 3:15pm cut-off, cruel and immoral, with no moral or medical

legal justification could be put in place? The effect of it was that

parents, for the first time yesterday, found out what happens

to their children. How can any right-minded feeling person look at

that original inquest and conclude that it was good enough? My mystery

is this. Speaking as a professional broadcaster and journalist, the

media were there, television was there. The press was there. There

happened. How is it, with all of us present, you say that everyone has

questions to answer, the media has huge questions to answer. How could

we allow a cover-up to stand for 23 years? That is a question more for

the media Andy Burnham. question is, how could Parliament

and the media allies such an injustice on this scale, such a

cover-up on this scale to carry on for so long? -- allow such an

injustice. By set up a panel on the recommendation of a journalist who

was looking at police statements. Back to the rational situation,

there are issues from the Leveson Inquiry here. There are 96 family's

year, like the Milly Dowler family, where in the moment of grief, the

media run -- rode roughshod over them. They added pain to their pain.

Liverpool has campaigned over this, but why did nobody will say,

actually, they might have a point and why don't we do something to

unlock the healthy culture of complicity between the police and

the press? We did not and it leads to some of the later abuses in

hacking and other things, in my view. What happens next? It happens

22 years ago. How difficult would be to get criminal prosecutions?

think it will be difficult. But they must be fully investigated.

There has to be a full process of accountability. What sort of

investigation should that be that would best lead to criminal

prosecution of those involved in what was, essentially, a deception

and the cover up? Yvette Cooper is writing to the Hon secretary today

to ask her to lay out how this will now happen. There has to be a

proper process. People have serious questions to answer. I would like

to make the point, given the family's -- we have given the

family's truth and now we want justice. We look at the inquest

into V3 50 cut-off. -- 3:15pm cut- off. I will not rest until we

overcome this verdict of accidental death. You could not conclude that

it was accidental having read the report. I want an assurance that if

we get a new inquest, it will receive all the evidence, not be

amended statements, the original statements. The original statements

that those police officers wrote. Do you know if the most senior

people likely to be in the frame of this investigation, are they still

live? Many people in the frame are still alive. I think they have very

serious questions to answer. They need to explain either why they

acted as they did, what they need to apologise and account for

themselves. So there are some senior people, maybe some of them

watching this programme, probably retired by now, they should be

beginning to wonder, and they may be facing jail sentences of this

process goes from Trust to justice. I cannot say what the appropriate

action is? -- from truth to justice. I know that what they did was

unacceptable. They have to account for themselves and the full force

of the law should be brought to pass. Can anybody justify a police

national computer check on the bodies of children lying in a

football ground? It is just despicable on every level. There

has to be accountability. The family's need it. We have had the

truth and we are now waiting on the justice. Thank you very much. It is

the 64,000 dollar question, actually that is not all that much

money these days. It is a bigger question than that. What is the

best way to restore growth to the economy? One man -- one man is Liam

Fox, he has some ideas. He says that the economy needs a shot to

the system in the form of immediate tax and welfare cuts. Dr Fox says

that Capital Gains Tax, where people are charged when they sell

assets on which they have made a profit, should be scrapped for

three years, leading to money calling into Britain from fast-

calling into Britain from fast- growing parts of Asia. -- money

flowing. We should make it easier, he says, for businesses to fire and

hire workers, and he says we know that works because it has worked

that works because it has worked before. He says and paternity leave

should be abolished as part of the agenda. Money could also be saved

by withdrawing free TV licences and winter fuel payments for the

better-off pensioners. Something that David Cameron has promised not

to do. Earlier this week, Dr Fox was one

of several Conservative MPs who launched a new group, called

Conservative Voice, aiming to promote the virtues of the free-

market, social mobility and a smaller state. Values which will

help the party connect with voters help the party connect with voters

and win the next election. So says Conservative voice. One of the MPs

involved in the launch is Steve Barclay and he is here now with

Stephen Williams. It is the battle of the Stephens. Steve Barclay, of

why would CAS a gold chains -- a capital gains cut bring growth to

the economy. We need to trade our way out of our economic

difficulties and a key part of that is exports. But also getting money

invested from abroad in the UK. And cutting Capital Gains Tax will make

a big difference in terms of sending a signal to the world and

encouraging people to invest in the UK. But why? I do not understand

the mechanism. He only wants a holiday for three years. He won the

Asians to bring their money in, invest, take the profit before the

window ends, and golf. Liam has suggested that after three years,

it will be at a lower rate. Send a signal. The Olympics has sent a

positive message to the world but we need to go further and faster.

What evidence do you have that the level of capital gains tax in any

way inhibits investment in this country. You have just seen the

Chinese to a �2 billion investment in our country, so where is the

evidence? In part, the evidence is there for a look at the Blair years.

Certain tax breaks were given and is have a very positive effect

within sectors of the economy. And we have seen that if you look at

the Laursen reforms, cutting tax can have an extremely positive

impact. What we need to do is send out a message across the world that

this is a country that people should be investing in and reducing

Capital Gains Tax, having that single -- signal -- signal sent out

would be the right message. Is it right that a rich Asian should pay

a lower level of income tax than a hard-working doctor would pay?

already have different rates of tax for different people. Do you think

that is right? Unless you think you'll have one tax rate across all

asset classes, it is inevitable. In the real-world, there will be

different tax breaks. Are you in favour of the lower rate? I think

it got pushed up to 28% from Vince Cable. It was, when we came in

Capital Gains Tax was at 18%, lower than income tax and the basic rate

of income tax. It is now 28%. It is still actually quite low in real

terms but I think it is bizarre economics that Liam Fox, my

constituency neighbour, is suggesting and maybe he does on

notice that the Government is cutting corporation tax, up until

2015. Most businesses looking at whether to invest in the UK or role

in the UK will find it in the rate of business tax. Why not change the

cut of business tax, when corporation tax would encourage

companies coming here for the long- term to invest in Britain as has

As a Conservative Cup I would like to see tax lowered wherever

possible. In four years' time, as a country, we will we spending �61

billion more a year them we are officio. The need to look at all

the options. -- than we are this year. That is why we need to trade

away out of the difficulties. Part of that is getting exports moving.

There has been progress in certain areas like corporation tax. Since

you raised capital gains tax. It was a Lib Dem initiative. Can you

tell us what has happened to those revenues? I cannot off the top of

my head. The honest answer is, it is probably too early to save.

is what the Chinese leader said about the French Revolution. You do

need two or three years to assess it. There is a lot of academic

literature on this. When corporation tax gets above the mid-

20s, it starts to have a negative return. It is difficult to know

where to strike the balance. There are other get out clauses. It is to

encourage entrepreneurs to take a risk with their own money to invest

in the United Kingdom. I do not want punitive rates. To put it into

context, it will cost �3.7 billion a year. That is what we spend in

overseas aid. This is a double achievement. It would send a very

positive investment. You want to cut overseas aid? I am not saying

that battle. These figures become so large that people lose context.

-- and that at all. That is true. I have no idea what a trillion is the

star of David Cameron made a strong point saying, they will not

withdraw these universal benefits. -- bought a trillion is. You want

to get rid of that. You got elected saying you would not do it. There a

two different issues. We're trying to rebuild the economy and rebuild

trust in politics. If you look at it in purely economic terms, it is

difficult to defend when someone in Spain gets the winter fuel

allowance for someone on a six figure salary - or someone who is

very wealthy - gets a universal benefit. From an economic viewpoint,

it is difficult to defend. It is not that simplistic. There was a

wider issue of trust. It is difficult... It would mean breaking

your word. We have to be more honest about this in politics.

do you think? Should all pensioners get these benefits? I am

uncomfortable getting a winter fuel allowance. There are people who

give it to charity. There are ways of doing that. I am interested in

how you intend having, for a very brief period being a candidate in

elections, I know how difficult it is getting the message across. How

were you persuade people to vote for you if you are going to say,

we're going to make rich people richer and little old people will

have to give up their money? key is getting jobs and getting

prosperity into the economy. The benefit of capital gains tax is to

get a entrepreneurs investing in the UK, which creates jobs and

business is growing. The beneficiaries of that are people

like my constituents, who will benefit from the jobs from that. As

you know, there is plenty of money around. There are people with

assets but they are not investing. How do we encourage them to invest?

A Lib Dem perspective on cutting the benefits for better-off

pensioners. I do not see any particular attraction in doing that.

Why should she get a free life -- licence? I do not. I am too young.

She is weight under 75. I thought you got it at 55. -- way under.

There ought to be a mechanism for people who feel they do not need it.

It might be easier then clawing it back. On the bus pass, you might

save the Duchess of Beaufort should not have it. It would be quite nice

to see her on a bus. That is how we have a cohesive society. I do not

even know what she looks like. could have been sitting beside you.

When we last on a bus? A couple of weeks ago. What do you think about

the dramatic moves off with join paternity leave altogether? No.

not do it. It is absolutely crucial for a new man to have a has been

next to her during knows very difficult first weeks. -- a new mum

to have a husband next to her. Conservative Voice is up and

running now. You will get a knife on the way out free of pencil. --

for your pencil. Now, if Liam Fox wasn't enough, the Chancellor has

also been getting some advice from recently sacked Defence Minister

Gerald Howarth. They start to say what they really think well of and

not telling me what they really think on this programme. -- rather

than not telling Mr Howarth has urged the Chancellor to resist

further cuts to the Defence budget and look again at the Government's

commitment to increasing spending on foreign aid. So, will Mr Osborne

listen, and should he? Adam Fleming is in Central Lobby to see how Mr

Howarth's suggestion has been greeted by MPs. The Government has

a plan to, at some point for introduce legislation enshrining in

law its pledge to spend 0.7% of the country's international income --

national income on international aid. It is said that pledge should

be abandoned and that money should go to the military instead. We have

two MPs who are on the opposite end of the spectrum. We have Philip

Davis the Conservative and Marco entries from the Labour Party. You

must think it is a great idea? Haworth is absolutely right. How

can we cut back on our armed forces? Cut back on all sorts of

things that are worth well because we do not have enough money and yet

spend too had an �80 million a year to India, who do not want it nor

need it. This is gesture politics. Why not put the health service

budget in law or the police service budget? The Government does not

need to enshrine this in law. tried to pass your own bill to get

it enshrined in law. What is your reaction? It is the same vault Tory

Party. David Cameron wanted to detoxify the brand. -- the same old

Tory Party. We have international obligations. Members of the United

Nations, all of these members have this target of 0.7, which was

introduced in 1970. They have still not been introduced by this

government. This government is committed to introducing it by 2013.

We talk about looking after poor people. This government has given a

tax cut to millionaires and a cut in benefits for British people. We

can give to poor people in this country as well as poor people

abroad. Why that target? Apart from having that target, there is also

an organisation which looks at the effectiveness of spending. It is

about quantity and quality. It is important, as the 21st century

nation that is leading the way many other ways, to get international

respect. All three parties campaign on it and they should all support

it. Let's talk about the politics. Justine Greening is the new

International Development Secretary. Was she dropped the target? I do

not know. She is an accountant and I hope she will put her accountancy

had on the make sure we extract proper value for money and not to

spend money for the sake of the spending it. -- her accountancy hat

on and make sure. I think he might be shocked to find that the vast

majority of his constituents think the amount of money going to India

is ludicrous, as they do in mind. We believe in international

development. We're not nationalists, we're internationalists. In the

21st century, everyone on the planet should have a fair deal.

That means dealing with major diseases and dealing with the

eradication of poverty. What about this idea that AIDS is a form of

soft power that helps us by friends and influence around the world?

we are trying to alleviate poverty, let's focus money on that. If we

want to buy influence around the world, let's put it into the

foreign office and let them do their job. They are supposed to be

putting money into alleviating terrible poverty. I do not have a

problem with that. The international development budget is

more than we can afford. We are having to borrow money to give two

countries like India that do not need it. -- give it two countries.

When you listen to ministers, they seemed quite keen on spending the

money but not so keen on passing legislation to define how much. We

have just seen why. A very interesting debate indeed. The

Government has described it as one of society's unspoken tragedies.

Loneliness affects around a million older people, with many having

contact with friends or family less than once a week. As well as the

social impact, it is thought loneliness can also lead to health

problems. So, how do you stop older people from feeling lonely? We sent

Susana to try a spot of quick step Meet Tom. He lives alone after his

wife died four years ago. His stance Palmer has been a widow for

20 years. -- dance partner. She does not see as much of her

children as she used to now they're all grown up. It does not have the

glitter of this Strictly ballroom but this tea dance does get them

out and about. To come to a club like this, or any club, when there

are lots of other people, I love people. A no time to be lonely.

These people pile in every week for a chat, a cup of tea, and, of

course, the Downs. The campaign to end Linnaeus shows -- to end

loneliness shows half of all older people say television is their main

company. A during the day, I walk, dance or go to clubs. Not day

centres of things like that but, in the night-time. Because I have my

television, it is OK. Sometimes I am alone and I want to talk to

someone and a watch television and they cannot talk to anyone.

have no idea. Having been married for 62 years, it makes you only.

You have to get over it. No way can we stay at home, clipping all the

time. The Department of Health says older people who are lonely are

more likely to go into residential or nursing care only -- early. What

is the answer a? The Government says it has given guidance to local

councils to stop people from feeling isolated. The woman who

started ChildLine says what is needed is a helpline specifically

for older people. That is being piloted this autumn. Some here are

not comfortable with the idea of that. I do not think, particularly,

I would like to talk to a stranger. Not really. It is like talking to

the Samaritans. Otherwise, I think Anyone answer is more cash in your

pension. The St Anns costs 350 -- �3.50, and these people say that

having enough money to go out allows them to avoid feeling lonely.

When I was on Tomorrow's World, it was an achievement to be able to

walk and talk at the same time, but on a Daily Politics, we can dance

and two pieces to camera at the same time. How about that? We are

joined by Paul Burstow, the Lib Dem MP who was until last week's

reshuffle in minister at the Department of Health. -- a minister.

You have a new initiative, tell us about that. It addresses the

loneliness issue. There is a real stigma attached to loneliness,

particularly in that generation, which is just a tiny bit ahead of

me. I and 72, and they know about loneliness because I have

experienced it. Those who were bereaved, whose family grows up and

moves away, instead of being the centre of people who depend on you,

and a company you in the evening, they have the room lights to leave

-- they have their own lives to lead. One I wrote a piece about

being lonely, a friend of mine said how could you write such a thing,

have you not got too much pride? That is what made me realise about

the stigma. If it is a stigma of abuse, and it is happening to

children, Childline has told us that a helpline can liberate them

because they can talk to a stranger about it without feeling humiliated.

I put to the voluntary sector the idea that the helpline might do the

same thing for older people who are feeling lonely, and they

unanimously said yes. We're going to piloted in the autumn and we're

going to launch it next year. We have had a small but vital donation

from the Department of Health. Thanks, Paul. And we're going to

say it is an open agenda. You ring the silver line with any question

you want, and we will direct you because the sector is full of

helpful advice and good provision, but people do not know where to

turn. 42% of people over 65 do not know where to turn for help. The

campaign discovered that. The umbrella helpline will contain a

bank of silver line friends who will make book calls on a regular

basis to people who want to talk to somebody, maybe in the evening or

whenever is convenient. And there are helplines around the country,

and they really shot increased morale and self-esteem, the

capacity to link back into things like the dancing. It really makes a

quantifiable difference. The Government wants us to encourage

this. Absolutely. The white paper we publish this year on reforming

carer support, the first part of the document is about this

challenge of loneliness. It is one of the hit-in issues of our society.

It is a big killer. That is why the Department of Health has backed

this. -- one of the hidden issues. Four men, particularly, once they

leave work and their wife dies, their social network falls away. It

is about making sure that those people who have needs to have

social connections have them. And I think the silver line is a clever

way to help people make use of the sources around them. What do you

say to the lady on a report to says that she does not like the idea. I

can hear my own mother or grandmother who said, "I don't like

to talk to strangers". You have to be tactful about the way you lead

people from the question that they were ringing to ask about, to

reveal that they would actually like a silver line friend. Once the

phone call has been made, you are not strangers any more. Having

watched helplines run by ordination it's like Age UK, listening to them

talk to callers, there are strangers are told. -- helplines

run by organisations like Aids UK. They are friends, they have got

over the state of. Old people are very independent-minded. They think,

I don't want to call a helpline because I do not lead -- do not

need help. The first thing to break down stick my is to get the issues

out there. People do not understand -- need to understand why it is

worth doing something about. I know you're piloting this issue at the

moment. We are. In the longer run, if it works, and the figure

probably will work, will it have to be funded? Would be a charitable

initiative? Will you raised money for this? We are a registered

charity. We are limited company. We have done all of those things and

we will depend on public generosity and the occasional excellent

minister who notices but this is a real problem and can be solved.

Will the Government do a bit of pump-priming? Basically, we have

put some money in. As a minister, I was keen to see that happen. We

have seen what Esther Rantzen can do. I think she has a vision for

solving this problem. It is part of the solution. We have heard in the

Department of Health that older people who are lonely are more

likely to have to go into residential or nursing care, which

in the end means loneliness=extra costs. -- loneliness results in

extra costs. I do not eat properly FIM by myself in the evening. I

balance a bit of cheese on the biscuit. They it depends on the

cheese! -- if I am by myself. advantage I have is that I have

felt it and I have been there and I will admit it. I am not talking

about these people. Old people feel things and I am them. I know how

difficult it is to admit it and how difficult it is to make that first

phone call. I'm sure that if we keep an open agenda, they can ring

us for any reason. Word of mouth might work as well, if a friend

does it. Why did they get rid of you? What have you done? It is not

about what I have done but there are other talented Liberal

Democrats who deserve a chance. Musical chairs. I suppose it means

you have more time to come and speak to us. I have time to take

forward things I care about. have time to be a trustee of a very

good charity. There you go, it all happens. We have a range of coffee

for the both of you afterwards. You're watching the Daily Politics.

We have been joined by viewers recently in Scotland. They were

watching Scotland's first ministers and they joined us in the middle of

our discussions. It is a big day for the Culture Secretary, Maria

Miller, taking questions in the chamber for the first time since

getting the job. Here is a flavour of her first spell in the spotlight.

The Leveson Inquiry offers a historic opportunity to tackle the

long-standing problems of the lack of a proper come -- proper press

complaints system and the concentration of media ownership.

What we saw from the independent report yesterday, 20 years before

her Milly Dowler, was the ugly spectacle of collusion between the

police and some elements of the press, inflicting pain and misery

on innocent people who are already suffering. Will she asked Lord

Justice Leveson to look at the implications of this. She is right.

The rights issues which have clear lead across to the reform -- report

announced yesterday. At this point in time, I would like to make sure

that we continue to focus on the importance of getting it right for

the families involved, that that is our focus first and foremost at

this point in time. I can say to her that we will be looking at that

report in great detail to make sure that any necessary actions are

taken. That was the new culture minister, Maria Miller, her first

outing was with Steve Hewlett, I think. The presenter of The Media

Show. Which you should never mess. Welcome. -- never miss. You have

interviewed her? No, I have not. I would like to but I have not.

have not had a chance? No. How did she do in the Commons? Fine, as far

as it goes. I thought she was very confident and very few people know

much about her, certainly in the media. But she is incredible,

confident performer. The problem is we have not the foggiest idea what

she thinks about anything. We have got to know what Jeremy Hunt

believed in. We have no idea her attitude towards the Leveson

Inquiry or the Murdochs. There are issues coming down the track. From

the outset, this is an unusual brief because in the Westminster

village, it is very low status. The department is down there somewhere,

but in the world out here, with the rest of us, it is very public. It

is sport and movies and TV and radio. It is culture, art, and all

those things. There are issues coming down here. We have heard

about the new broadband roll-out, and the new iPhone, which will be

compatible with the new broadband network. They are the only people

allowed to operate that, and that have the capacity. There is a

competition issues behind this -- a competition issue behind this. Mido

Yap ownership and plurality. -- media ownership and variety. The

net has not been cast too wide. Many people think that David

Cameron has rushed the decision. I'm glad to have raised that. It is

a big agenda. But you have not spoken to Maria Miller and none of

us have. But you have spoken to John Whittingdale, the influential

Conservative MP who chairs the Culture Select Committee and did

the interviews and investigations with the Murdochs. He has spoken to

you about Leveson. What has he said? He says the remit was to wind.

I think he thinks but he did not say this, that it was set up in a

rush. -- the remit was too wide. I think he thinks it was not fully

thought through. He was probably right. As a consequence, he thinks

the things that provoked it, her phone hacking and police corruption

and the cover-up, all of that, and what actually went wrong, as Chris

Bryant said this morning, that has not be looked at yet. Because the

legal action is ongoing. Leveson is to that point, it may not be worth

doing. Whittingdale says, look, it has become an open house. Anyone

with a grievance against the press, many of them justified, have had

their say. Imagine you set up an inquiry into lawyers and said OK,

come and have your say. There would be queues around the block. So of

us only dream of something like that? --! I am prepared to share

that inquiry. What you get with phone hacking, you're left with

Page Three, which is an important and controversial issue but we have

set up a judicial inquiry to look into it. There is brewing on the

Tory benches, concern about where David Cameron might have got them

too. Because when it comes to the implementation phase of whatever

Leveson suggests, it is a hot potato. Because they are still very

frightened. Parliament is very frightened of the press and that is

why Leveson is so crucial. The press got to a stage when no one

could question its power and the Bay Area... -- the Big Issue...

Present company excepted. Privacy is a key area, and it lies behind

much of a staff. It Leveson can get to a point where people have the

right to privacy even if they if you grant... I will say that, even

if you look at what is happening the courts, 18 months ago we are in

the world of superinjunctions and no one can be named, not even the

fact that a superinjunction exists can be mentioned. Since then, the

course of balanced the right to freedom of speech with the right to

privacy and just the other week, Steve McClaren, the former English

manager was told to sling his hook whilst trying to prevent issues

about his private life. This issue has been resolved in practice, case

by case, by judges. I worry about anyone not withstanding Leveson's

obvious talents, coming out with anything that sought to establish

once and for all and absolutely -- in an absolute way, lines that

cannot be crossed. You end up with figures of public interest, try to

define the public interest in law, or in in -- or in any way that is

not contingent on a case-by-case analysis, that puts us in an odd

place. The judges are all over the place. One judges very tough on

these issues, and there were stringent privacy rulings that came

in. But now the most recent rulings show the judges taking a rather

more liberal, permissive approach. At the basic way of thinking about

it is shifting. It is being worked out case-by-case. In effect, people

who deserve this and are entitled to it... I think everyone is

entitled to it, even famous actors and people who are filmstar as.

There was research on zoo animals, and if they're given no privacy, if

the public can see everything they do, including reproductive

practices and so on, they go barmy. That is why animals in zoos often

go barmy. By most animals did not choose to put themselves in the zoo.

-- but most animals. There is a flaw in de Zeeuw model? If somebody

chooses to be an actor, that means they have to sweep their cars for

bugs? I take your point. Can I say one more point about the new

Secretary of State. One of her predecessors wrote something

intelligent about this. The thing is, when you going to these jobs

you need to establish the framework. You need an issue, something that

is going to be your concern. Jeremy Hunt did it with local TV and not

withstanding the endless rumpus over Murdoch and all the rest of it,

he is still seen as the person who did local TV. We have no idea what

Maria Miller is going to establish as her centrepiece. And I am

tempted to think that in spite of all the controversial issues coming

up, internet pornography, you name it, the Olympic legacy might be the

one that they have to worry about most. Imagine this, having had huge

success of the Olympics, if in 18 months' time, that legacy is seen

to have been squandered in terms of school sports and childhood obesity,

participation, volunteering. If that is seen to have been

squandered, that will do a lot of damage. Maybe she will make that

the thing she concentrates on. Do Yes. I always thought we were

totally unbalanced. There are times when democracy gets unbalanced.

Nobody dare take on a raid just things in the press and that was

offensive. -- offensive things. There will be great pressure on the

Prime Minister to immediately accept the recommendations of

Leveson. I hope he will not. What he's saying is this is political

dynamite. Labour are free and clear. They cannot do anything about it

until the next election because they are not in office. They are

striking are hard line in terms of statutory underpinning. Does David

Miliband want to spend the 18 months in the run-up to the next

election as the party trying to muzzle the press? Now, last week it

was the Greens. We have had the TUC and now it is the time of Plaid

Cymru. Members will be gathering in Brecon tomorrow for that and you

will get together. Leanne Wood will be making her maiden conference

speech as leader, having been elected in March. She joins us from

Cardiff. What you hope to achieve that your leadership? I have said,

it since I have been the leader of Plaid Cymru, that a once the

economy to be my party central priority. -- that I want. We have

to do everything we can to create jobs. People are feeling the

squeeze. Cuts are being felt, particularly badly, in Wales. Many

people are struggling to put food on the table and pay heating bills.

Jobs have to be the priority. That has to be the central focus of my

conference speech, when I deliver it tomorrow. On the economy, will

you continue, under your leadership, to position Plaid Cymru to their

left of the Labour Party on economic matters? -- to the left.

In Wales, the centre of political gravity is to the left. The main

focus for Plaid Cymru is to ensure that we can put together a

programme of government that will speak to everyone in Wales. As they

have already said, the cuts that Tara affecting us worse here, the

public sector is bigger. -- that are affecting us. The economy has

to be the top priorities. understanding is that the position

of Plaid Cymru on independence is not as clear cut. The demand is not

as immediate as the Scottish National position. The constitution

is very much in the news at the moment because of what is happening

in Scotland. Wales is a very different countries. We have made

no secret about the fact that independence is something we strive

for in the long term. At the moment, the economy is the issue that most

people are deeply concerned about. Many young people are at the moment

have no chance of a job weight- training place. Very many young

people have very little hope for the future. -- or a training place.

The need to provide hope for a generation of young people who

deserve to have a future to look forward to. They will cease to have

a huge, vibrant economy. It was built on the old dirty industries

but it was a huge economic powerhouse. As the old industries

have declined, Wales has become more and more independent on the

public sector. It is a bigger public sector, as it is in the

North of England and Scotland as well. I knew too dependent on the

public sector? We need to do more to grow the private sector. -- are

you too dependent? The business sector needs to become larger. I

will be outlining a number of measures to improve the Welsh

economy. One thing you could hear a lot of is a by a local campaign. We

will try to encourage people to spend more money in local shops and

businesses than in supermarkets, as a waiter tried to lock money in and

encourage economic stimulation -- ate way to try to lock money in and

encourage economic stimulation. There are a lot fewer companies

setting up in wares at the moment. Our share of inward investment has

gone Dang quite considerably. -- in Wales. Our economic Commission has

come up with a report showing the Welsh economy has been in decline

for more than 20 years. Rather than think about what various strategies

we have been to do since the end of the Kohl era, we need some new

thinking, to try to think of different ways of stimulating the

economy. The central focus has to be job creation. We need a new deal

for Wales. That is so we can build up resilience in the economy.

the information age, often the brains of the people matter most of

all. The quality of the education system matters most of all. We see

that in Hong Kong and Singapore, or Finland and Sweden. There has been

a lot of criticism recently of the Welsh school system. Some reports

have been saying that exam results are not anywhere near as good as

they should be. There is no doubt that Wales can do better in terms

of education. We understand the importance of education. My family

background is in mining. The miners give us libraries. The really to

understand the importance of education and we need to up our

game on up front. It is unacceptable that the numbers of

young people of who leave school who cannot read and write. Literacy

will be something we will advocate as part of our programme. Coming

back to independence, we do except if the Scottish nationalists did

get a referendum in 2014, and they call it upon the Scots to vote

against independence - if they do - we just accept that would make the

issue of Welsh independents dead for a generation or more? -- would

you accept? Noah macro. Whatever the outcome of the Scottish

referendum, the relationship will have to change. -- no. That needs

to be done regardless of the outcome of the Scottish referendum.

Surely the Busch regard themselves as more than equal. We regard

ourselves as people at the moment. We're not getting an equal deal. In

the future, we should have a more equal place. It is good to talk to

you. Thank you for joining as. I hope the conference is interesting.

Thank you very much. Now, Her Majesty's Royal ears must be

burning at the moment, as yet more buildings are named after her. The

Olympic Park will become the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park. And the

clock tower at Westminster - that houses the famous Big Ben bell -

will today be named the Elizabeth Tower, after MPs voted to change

the name to mark the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. I've always wanted

to send our reporters to the tower. Here's Adam with a view from the

top. The world knows it as Big Ben. For 153 years, the official title

was the clock tower. Yesterday it was renamed the Elizabeth Tower,

after the Queen. I'm getting a VIP tour. First, health and safety.

Strictly speaking, the Tessa -- the decibel level when the bell strikes

is below the danger of health and safety level. We do give these

little ear plugs, or ear defenders cut out to people. Let's be brave

and leave them behind. I have the big industrial ones because I am up

here three times a day. Then it is onwards and upwards and upwards

some more. This is three had and 16 ft tall. We're nearly half way. --

316 ft tall. You have to turn around. You can see the number of

stairs you climb. 182. How many more to go? Crikey, just over 200

Foster of beneath every great clock is a great big pendulum. -- just

over 200. That pendulum is about four metres long. At the end of it,

at the bottom of it, is a 400 lb great. That is what makes the

pendulum swim -- swing - that weight. A bit more climbing and

with bumps into a famous face. is the south-facing Clock Face

which looks over Parliament. See the bracket above my head. That is

the supporting mechanism for the minute hand. If you look to the

left, you can see these lightbulbs. They liked the dials at night time.

Finally, you cannot top this. Up close with the country's favourite

L - Big Ben. It is so loud it broke our microphone. -- favourite Bell.

Will the change of name make any difference? I do not think so. It

will be renamed the Elizabeth Talbot we will still call it Big

Ben. That is not Big Ben now. -- Elizabeth Tower. I am sure we will

continue to call it Big Ben. Still, if she does ever come up here, she

will get a lovely view of a power house. And the man behind the

rebrand, Conservative MP Tobias Ellwood, joins us now. It can only

be a matter of days before you knighthood is in the post will

start I am delighted to see the name has been changed. -- in the

post. The Victoria Tower is at the West End. It was originally called

the King's Tower. It is a wonderful tribute to an amazing life. It is a

reminder of what it is to be British. Isn't this a fact that we

are all going to call it Big Ben custom up I hope that does not

change. Sir Benjamin Hall put the belt up. It will be Elizabeth Tower.

-- the bell. Do you want us to refer to it as the Elizabeth Tower?

You can refer to both. The bell is Big Ben. Can I mention a problem?