13/09/2012 Daily Politics


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It will come to the Daily Politics. After the truth on Hillsborough,


the real truth, or where now for the victims' families? Andy Burnham


joins us to discuss the next stage in their fight for justice.


It is time for a shock to the system according to the Defence


Secretary, Liam Fox, he calls today for tax and welfare cuts to get the


economy were moving. Just what the doctor ordered or bad medicine? --


get the economy moving. We will discuss fresh calls today for a


rethink on protecting foreign aid. And what would you call this? Big


Ben? No. The clock tower? Know. The Elizabeth power? The right answer.


We will discuss the rebrand and ask if the new name will stick. -- the


Elizabeth Tower. All that in the next hour and with


me for the duration, broadcaster and commentator, erstwhile


political candidate Esther Rantzen. Welcome to the programme. Let's


start with what has dominated the news for 24 hours, Hillsborough. We


had a string of apologies yesterday after the publication of the report


of the Hillsborough independent panel, including from the Prime


Minister in the House of Commons but this morning we have had


another one from Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, who was editor of


the Spectator magazine and had published a controversial editorial


which many people in Liverpool found highly offensive. This report


lays to rest the false allegation was made at the time about the


behaviour of those fans, and a repeat that I was very sorry in


2004 or that the spectator did write an editorial that partially


repeated those allegations. I apologise them and I apologise now.


May I say that I hope that the families of the 96 victims will


take some comfort to from this report and that they can reach some


sort of closure. Boris Johnson apologising for an editorial he did


not right but his editor -- as editor, he carries the can. For his


new controversial day today with Jack Straw suggesting that the


Thatcher government in power at the time of the tragedy created a


culture of impunity around the police, contributing to the


handling of the events in April of 1989. Let's listen to what he had


to say. The Thatcher government, because they needed a police to be


a partisan force, particularly for the miners' strike, created a


culture of impunity in the police service and they really were immune


from outside influences. They thought they could rule the roost


and that is what we absolutely sock in South Yorkshire. Jack Straw


speaking on Radio 4 this morning. Andy Burnham, who has been a


leading campaigner over the Hillsborough business, joins us now.


Welcome to the show. Do you agree with Jack Straw at Hillsborough can


partly be explained by a culture of impunity among the South Yorkshire


Police? I think there was a culture and society in the 1980s where


certain groups were treated as second-class citizens and football


supporters were in that category. There was a casual disregard for


people's welfare and safety at football matches. Everything was


seen through the prism of hooliganism. That bred a culture of


negligence when it came to safety at football grounds, and sadly it


is one of the reasons, as laid out in the report yesterday, that we


saw so many terrible deaths. Jack Straw is blaming the Thatcher


Government for creating this culture. In return, he is saying it


was this culture of impunity that leads to what happened at


Hillsborough. Do you agree? I think it was a time where there was not


sufficient accountability. The police could do things and police -


- people had no way of fighting back. I think at the time, the


Government was very obsessed with the Football Supporters Bill, and


it saw everything as an issue of hooliganism. So Jack Straw is


right? I think the government of that time has questions to answer,


but so to everybody. How did Parliament allows such an injustice


to stand for so long and why did my own party not do more to help the


families? I think everyone needs to look at themselves and ask


questions about what they did or did not do and then we will get


towards some reconciliation. I do not think today is the day to make


it a party political point. A I'm glad you raised that. Was Mr Straw


right, at a time when there is party political consensus, with a


process started by you and other Labour MPs, continued by a


Conservative-led government, leading to a statement by the Prime


Minister preys on all sides, is it right to introduce party politics


to this? I am not sure he is. saying the Thatcher government


needed a police to be a partisan force! Let's not be shutting down


the debate when the panel has issued this report. There are


legitimate questions to be asked about the culture that existed in


the police force and the way in which the government of the day


handled it. Those are legitimate questions. Yes, the Prime Minister


was outstanding in the House of Commons last night and I was at


Liverpool last night, and we are not known for lavishing praise on


Tory politicians but he was receiving great praise from the


people of Liverpool and that is a good thing. But today, everyone has


questions to answer and this process of accountability needs to


start properly. If Jack Straw really thought that, rather than


making a party political point this morning, why did he make such a


mess of the investigation into Hillsborough? If he really thought


that, why did he not do more to get to the bottom of it? You had 13


years in power and if this is what you really thought... And yet Mr


Straw came up with a milk and water report. One about the media?


Everyone has questions to answer. - - what about the media. I said


sorry to the people of Liverpool that they had to wait so long. They


accepted what I have described as an establishment culpability, which


I think the report was. How can that report have looked at the fact


that 80 3:15pm cut-off, cruel and immoral, with no moral or medical


legal justification could be put in place? The effect of it was that


parents, for the first time yesterday, found out what happens


to their children. How can any right-minded feeling person look at


that original inquest and conclude that it was good enough? My mystery


is this. Speaking as a professional broadcaster and journalist, the


media were there, television was there. The press was there. There


happened. How is it, with all of us present, you say that everyone has


questions to answer, the media has huge questions to answer. How could


we allow a cover-up to stand for 23 years? That is a question more for


the media Andy Burnham. question is, how could Parliament


and the media allies such an injustice on this scale, such a


cover-up on this scale to carry on for so long? -- allow such an


injustice. By set up a panel on the recommendation of a journalist who


was looking at police statements. Back to the rational situation,


there are issues from the Leveson Inquiry here. There are 96 family's


year, like the Milly Dowler family, where in the moment of grief, the


media run -- rode roughshod over them. They added pain to their pain.


Liverpool has campaigned over this, but why did nobody will say,


actually, they might have a point and why don't we do something to


unlock the healthy culture of complicity between the police and


the press? We did not and it leads to some of the later abuses in


hacking and other things, in my view. What happens next? It happens


22 years ago. How difficult would be to get criminal prosecutions?


think it will be difficult. But they must be fully investigated.


There has to be a full process of accountability. What sort of


investigation should that be that would best lead to criminal


prosecution of those involved in what was, essentially, a deception


and the cover up? Yvette Cooper is writing to the Hon secretary today


to ask her to lay out how this will now happen. There has to be a


proper process. People have serious questions to answer. I would like


to make the point, given the family's -- we have given the


family's truth and now we want justice. We look at the inquest


into V3 50 cut-off. -- 3:15pm cut- off. I will not rest until we


overcome this verdict of accidental death. You could not conclude that


it was accidental having read the report. I want an assurance that if


we get a new inquest, it will receive all the evidence, not be


amended statements, the original statements. The original statements


that those police officers wrote. Do you know if the most senior


people likely to be in the frame of this investigation, are they still


live? Many people in the frame are still alive. I think they have very


serious questions to answer. They need to explain either why they


acted as they did, what they need to apologise and account for


themselves. So there are some senior people, maybe some of them


watching this programme, probably retired by now, they should be


beginning to wonder, and they may be facing jail sentences of this


process goes from Trust to justice. I cannot say what the appropriate


action is? -- from truth to justice. I know that what they did was


unacceptable. They have to account for themselves and the full force


of the law should be brought to pass. Can anybody justify a police


national computer check on the bodies of children lying in a


football ground? It is just despicable on every level. There


has to be accountability. The family's need it. We have had the


truth and we are now waiting on the justice. Thank you very much. It is


the 64,000 dollar question, actually that is not all that much


money these days. It is a bigger question than that. What is the


best way to restore growth to the economy? One man -- one man is Liam


Fox, he has some ideas. He says that the economy needs a shot to


the system in the form of immediate tax and welfare cuts. Dr Fox says


that Capital Gains Tax, where people are charged when they sell


assets on which they have made a profit, should be scrapped for


three years, leading to money calling into Britain from fast-


calling into Britain from fast- growing parts of Asia. -- money


flowing. We should make it easier, he says, for businesses to fire and


hire workers, and he says we know that works because it has worked


that works because it has worked before. He says and paternity leave


should be abolished as part of the agenda. Money could also be saved


by withdrawing free TV licences and winter fuel payments for the


better-off pensioners. Something that David Cameron has promised not


to do. Earlier this week, Dr Fox was one


of several Conservative MPs who launched a new group, called


Conservative Voice, aiming to promote the virtues of the free-


market, social mobility and a smaller state. Values which will


help the party connect with voters help the party connect with voters


and win the next election. So says Conservative voice. One of the MPs


involved in the launch is Steve Barclay and he is here now with


Stephen Williams. It is the battle of the Stephens. Steve Barclay, of


why would CAS a gold chains -- a capital gains cut bring growth to


the economy. We need to trade our way out of our economic


difficulties and a key part of that is exports. But also getting money


invested from abroad in the UK. And cutting Capital Gains Tax will make


a big difference in terms of sending a signal to the world and


encouraging people to invest in the UK. But why? I do not understand


the mechanism. He only wants a holiday for three years. He won the


Asians to bring their money in, invest, take the profit before the


window ends, and golf. Liam has suggested that after three years,


it will be at a lower rate. Send a signal. The Olympics has sent a


positive message to the world but we need to go further and faster.


What evidence do you have that the level of capital gains tax in any


way inhibits investment in this country. You have just seen the


Chinese to a �2 billion investment in our country, so where is the


evidence? In part, the evidence is there for a look at the Blair years.


Certain tax breaks were given and is have a very positive effect


within sectors of the economy. And we have seen that if you look at


the Laursen reforms, cutting tax can have an extremely positive


impact. What we need to do is send out a message across the world that


this is a country that people should be investing in and reducing


Capital Gains Tax, having that single -- signal -- signal sent out


would be the right message. Is it right that a rich Asian should pay


a lower level of income tax than a hard-working doctor would pay?


already have different rates of tax for different people. Do you think


that is right? Unless you think you'll have one tax rate across all


asset classes, it is inevitable. In the real-world, there will be


different tax breaks. Are you in favour of the lower rate? I think


it got pushed up to 28% from Vince Cable. It was, when we came in


Capital Gains Tax was at 18%, lower than income tax and the basic rate


of income tax. It is now 28%. It is still actually quite low in real


terms but I think it is bizarre economics that Liam Fox, my


constituency neighbour, is suggesting and maybe he does on


notice that the Government is cutting corporation tax, up until


2015. Most businesses looking at whether to invest in the UK or role


in the UK will find it in the rate of business tax. Why not change the


cut of business tax, when corporation tax would encourage


companies coming here for the long- term to invest in Britain as has


As a Conservative Cup I would like to see tax lowered wherever


possible. In four years' time, as a country, we will we spending �61


billion more a year them we are officio. The need to look at all


the options. -- than we are this year. That is why we need to trade


away out of the difficulties. Part of that is getting exports moving.


There has been progress in certain areas like corporation tax. Since


you raised capital gains tax. It was a Lib Dem initiative. Can you


tell us what has happened to those revenues? I cannot off the top of


my head. The honest answer is, it is probably too early to save.


is what the Chinese leader said about the French Revolution. You do


need two or three years to assess it. There is a lot of academic


literature on this. When corporation tax gets above the mid-


20s, it starts to have a negative return. It is difficult to know


where to strike the balance. There are other get out clauses. It is to


encourage entrepreneurs to take a risk with their own money to invest


in the United Kingdom. I do not want punitive rates. To put it into


context, it will cost �3.7 billion a year. That is what we spend in


overseas aid. This is a double achievement. It would send a very


positive investment. You want to cut overseas aid? I am not saying


that battle. These figures become so large that people lose context.


-- and that at all. That is true. I have no idea what a trillion is the


star of David Cameron made a strong point saying, they will not


withdraw these universal benefits. -- bought a trillion is. You want


to get rid of that. You got elected saying you would not do it. There a


two different issues. We're trying to rebuild the economy and rebuild


trust in politics. If you look at it in purely economic terms, it is


difficult to defend when someone in Spain gets the winter fuel


allowance for someone on a six figure salary - or someone who is


very wealthy - gets a universal benefit. From an economic viewpoint,


it is difficult to defend. It is not that simplistic. There was a


wider issue of trust. It is difficult... It would mean breaking


your word. We have to be more honest about this in politics.


do you think? Should all pensioners get these benefits? I am


uncomfortable getting a winter fuel allowance. There are people who


give it to charity. There are ways of doing that. I am interested in


how you intend having, for a very brief period being a candidate in


elections, I know how difficult it is getting the message across. How


were you persuade people to vote for you if you are going to say,


we're going to make rich people richer and little old people will


have to give up their money? key is getting jobs and getting


prosperity into the economy. The benefit of capital gains tax is to


get a entrepreneurs investing in the UK, which creates jobs and


business is growing. The beneficiaries of that are people


like my constituents, who will benefit from the jobs from that. As


you know, there is plenty of money around. There are people with


assets but they are not investing. How do we encourage them to invest?


A Lib Dem perspective on cutting the benefits for better-off


pensioners. I do not see any particular attraction in doing that.


Why should she get a free life -- licence? I do not. I am too young.


She is weight under 75. I thought you got it at 55. -- way under.


There ought to be a mechanism for people who feel they do not need it.


It might be easier then clawing it back. On the bus pass, you might


save the Duchess of Beaufort should not have it. It would be quite nice


to see her on a bus. That is how we have a cohesive society. I do not


even know what she looks like. could have been sitting beside you.


When we last on a bus? A couple of weeks ago. What do you think about


the dramatic moves off with join paternity leave altogether? No.


not do it. It is absolutely crucial for a new man to have a has been


next to her during knows very difficult first weeks. -- a new mum


to have a husband next to her. Conservative Voice is up and


running now. You will get a knife on the way out free of pencil. --


for your pencil. Now, if Liam Fox wasn't enough, the Chancellor has


also been getting some advice from recently sacked Defence Minister


Gerald Howarth. They start to say what they really think well of and


not telling me what they really think on this programme. -- rather


than not telling Mr Howarth has urged the Chancellor to resist


further cuts to the Defence budget and look again at the Government's


commitment to increasing spending on foreign aid. So, will Mr Osborne


listen, and should he? Adam Fleming is in Central Lobby to see how Mr


Howarth's suggestion has been greeted by MPs. The Government has


a plan to, at some point for introduce legislation enshrining in


law its pledge to spend 0.7% of the country's international income --


national income on international aid. It is said that pledge should


be abandoned and that money should go to the military instead. We have


two MPs who are on the opposite end of the spectrum. We have Philip


Davis the Conservative and Marco entries from the Labour Party. You


must think it is a great idea? Haworth is absolutely right. How


can we cut back on our armed forces? Cut back on all sorts of


things that are worth well because we do not have enough money and yet


spend too had an �80 million a year to India, who do not want it nor


need it. This is gesture politics. Why not put the health service


budget in law or the police service budget? The Government does not


need to enshrine this in law. tried to pass your own bill to get


it enshrined in law. What is your reaction? It is the same vault Tory


Party. David Cameron wanted to detoxify the brand. -- the same old


Tory Party. We have international obligations. Members of the United


Nations, all of these members have this target of 0.7, which was


introduced in 1970. They have still not been introduced by this


government. This government is committed to introducing it by 2013.


We talk about looking after poor people. This government has given a


tax cut to millionaires and a cut in benefits for British people. We


can give to poor people in this country as well as poor people


abroad. Why that target? Apart from having that target, there is also


an organisation which looks at the effectiveness of spending. It is


about quantity and quality. It is important, as the 21st century


nation that is leading the way many other ways, to get international


respect. All three parties campaign on it and they should all support


it. Let's talk about the politics. Justine Greening is the new


International Development Secretary. Was she dropped the target? I do


not know. She is an accountant and I hope she will put her accountancy


had on the make sure we extract proper value for money and not to


spend money for the sake of the spending it. -- her accountancy hat


on and make sure. I think he might be shocked to find that the vast


majority of his constituents think the amount of money going to India


is ludicrous, as they do in mind. We believe in international


development. We're not nationalists, we're internationalists. In the


21st century, everyone on the planet should have a fair deal.


That means dealing with major diseases and dealing with the


eradication of poverty. What about this idea that AIDS is a form of


soft power that helps us by friends and influence around the world?


we are trying to alleviate poverty, let's focus money on that. If we


want to buy influence around the world, let's put it into the


foreign office and let them do their job. They are supposed to be


putting money into alleviating terrible poverty. I do not have a


problem with that. The international development budget is


more than we can afford. We are having to borrow money to give two


countries like India that do not need it. -- give it two countries.


When you listen to ministers, they seemed quite keen on spending the


money but not so keen on passing legislation to define how much. We


have just seen why. A very interesting debate indeed. The


Government has described it as one of society's unspoken tragedies.


Loneliness affects around a million older people, with many having


contact with friends or family less than once a week. As well as the


social impact, it is thought loneliness can also lead to health


problems. So, how do you stop older people from feeling lonely? We sent


Susana to try a spot of quick step Meet Tom. He lives alone after his


wife died four years ago. His stance Palmer has been a widow for


20 years. -- dance partner. She does not see as much of her


children as she used to now they're all grown up. It does not have the


glitter of this Strictly ballroom but this tea dance does get them


out and about. To come to a club like this, or any club, when there


are lots of other people, I love people. A no time to be lonely.


These people pile in every week for a chat, a cup of tea, and, of


course, the Downs. The campaign to end Linnaeus shows -- to end


loneliness shows half of all older people say television is their main


company. A during the day, I walk, dance or go to clubs. Not day


centres of things like that but, in the night-time. Because I have my


television, it is OK. Sometimes I am alone and I want to talk to


someone and a watch television and they cannot talk to anyone.


have no idea. Having been married for 62 years, it makes you only.


You have to get over it. No way can we stay at home, clipping all the


time. The Department of Health says older people who are lonely are


more likely to go into residential or nursing care only -- early. What


is the answer a? The Government says it has given guidance to local


councils to stop people from feeling isolated. The woman who


started ChildLine says what is needed is a helpline specifically


for older people. That is being piloted this autumn. Some here are


not comfortable with the idea of that. I do not think, particularly,


I would like to talk to a stranger. Not really. It is like talking to


the Samaritans. Otherwise, I think Anyone answer is more cash in your


pension. The St Anns costs 350 -- �3.50, and these people say that


having enough money to go out allows them to avoid feeling lonely.


When I was on Tomorrow's World, it was an achievement to be able to


walk and talk at the same time, but on a Daily Politics, we can dance


and two pieces to camera at the same time. How about that? We are


joined by Paul Burstow, the Lib Dem MP who was until last week's


reshuffle in minister at the Department of Health. -- a minister.


You have a new initiative, tell us about that. It addresses the


loneliness issue. There is a real stigma attached to loneliness,


particularly in that generation, which is just a tiny bit ahead of


me. I and 72, and they know about loneliness because I have


experienced it. Those who were bereaved, whose family grows up and


moves away, instead of being the centre of people who depend on you,


and a company you in the evening, they have the room lights to leave


-- they have their own lives to lead. One I wrote a piece about


being lonely, a friend of mine said how could you write such a thing,


have you not got too much pride? That is what made me realise about


the stigma. If it is a stigma of abuse, and it is happening to


children, Childline has told us that a helpline can liberate them


because they can talk to a stranger about it without feeling humiliated.


I put to the voluntary sector the idea that the helpline might do the


same thing for older people who are feeling lonely, and they


unanimously said yes. We're going to piloted in the autumn and we're


going to launch it next year. We have had a small but vital donation


from the Department of Health. Thanks, Paul. And we're going to


say it is an open agenda. You ring the silver line with any question


you want, and we will direct you because the sector is full of


helpful advice and good provision, but people do not know where to


turn. 42% of people over 65 do not know where to turn for help. The


campaign discovered that. The umbrella helpline will contain a


bank of silver line friends who will make book calls on a regular


basis to people who want to talk to somebody, maybe in the evening or


whenever is convenient. And there are helplines around the country,


and they really shot increased morale and self-esteem, the


capacity to link back into things like the dancing. It really makes a


quantifiable difference. The Government wants us to encourage


this. Absolutely. The white paper we publish this year on reforming


carer support, the first part of the document is about this


challenge of loneliness. It is one of the hit-in issues of our society.


It is a big killer. That is why the Department of Health has backed


this. -- one of the hidden issues. Four men, particularly, once they


leave work and their wife dies, their social network falls away. It


is about making sure that those people who have needs to have


social connections have them. And I think the silver line is a clever


way to help people make use of the sources around them. What do you


say to the lady on a report to says that she does not like the idea. I


can hear my own mother or grandmother who said, "I don't like


to talk to strangers". You have to be tactful about the way you lead


people from the question that they were ringing to ask about, to


reveal that they would actually like a silver line friend. Once the


phone call has been made, you are not strangers any more. Having


watched helplines run by ordination it's like Age UK, listening to them


talk to callers, there are strangers are told. -- helplines


run by organisations like Aids UK. They are friends, they have got


over the state of. Old people are very independent-minded. They think,


I don't want to call a helpline because I do not lead -- do not


need help. The first thing to break down stick my is to get the issues


out there. People do not understand -- need to understand why it is


worth doing something about. I know you're piloting this issue at the


moment. We are. In the longer run, if it works, and the figure


probably will work, will it have to be funded? Would be a charitable


initiative? Will you raised money for this? We are a registered


charity. We are limited company. We have done all of those things and


we will depend on public generosity and the occasional excellent


minister who notices but this is a real problem and can be solved.


Will the Government do a bit of pump-priming? Basically, we have


put some money in. As a minister, I was keen to see that happen. We


have seen what Esther Rantzen can do. I think she has a vision for


solving this problem. It is part of the solution. We have heard in the


Department of Health that older people who are lonely are more


likely to have to go into residential or nursing care, which


in the end means loneliness=extra costs. -- loneliness results in


extra costs. I do not eat properly FIM by myself in the evening. I


balance a bit of cheese on the biscuit. They it depends on the


cheese! -- if I am by myself. advantage I have is that I have


felt it and I have been there and I will admit it. I am not talking


about these people. Old people feel things and I am them. I know how


difficult it is to admit it and how difficult it is to make that first


phone call. I'm sure that if we keep an open agenda, they can ring


us for any reason. Word of mouth might work as well, if a friend


does it. Why did they get rid of you? What have you done? It is not


about what I have done but there are other talented Liberal


Democrats who deserve a chance. Musical chairs. I suppose it means


you have more time to come and speak to us. I have time to take


forward things I care about. have time to be a trustee of a very


good charity. There you go, it all happens. We have a range of coffee


for the both of you afterwards. You're watching the Daily Politics.


We have been joined by viewers recently in Scotland. They were


watching Scotland's first ministers and they joined us in the middle of


our discussions. It is a big day for the Culture Secretary, Maria


Miller, taking questions in the chamber for the first time since


getting the job. Here is a flavour of her first spell in the spotlight.


The Leveson Inquiry offers a historic opportunity to tackle the


long-standing problems of the lack of a proper come -- proper press


complaints system and the concentration of media ownership.


What we saw from the independent report yesterday, 20 years before


her Milly Dowler, was the ugly spectacle of collusion between the


police and some elements of the press, inflicting pain and misery


on innocent people who are already suffering. Will she asked Lord


Justice Leveson to look at the implications of this. She is right.


The rights issues which have clear lead across to the reform -- report


announced yesterday. At this point in time, I would like to make sure


that we continue to focus on the importance of getting it right for


the families involved, that that is our focus first and foremost at


this point in time. I can say to her that we will be looking at that


report in great detail to make sure that any necessary actions are


taken. That was the new culture minister, Maria Miller, her first


outing was with Steve Hewlett, I think. The presenter of The Media


Show. Which you should never mess. Welcome. -- never miss. You have


interviewed her? No, I have not. I would like to but I have not.


have not had a chance? No. How did she do in the Commons? Fine, as far


as it goes. I thought she was very confident and very few people know


much about her, certainly in the media. But she is incredible,


confident performer. The problem is we have not the foggiest idea what


she thinks about anything. We have got to know what Jeremy Hunt


believed in. We have no idea her attitude towards the Leveson


Inquiry or the Murdochs. There are issues coming down the track. From


the outset, this is an unusual brief because in the Westminster


village, it is very low status. The department is down there somewhere,


but in the world out here, with the rest of us, it is very public. It


is sport and movies and TV and radio. It is culture, art, and all


those things. There are issues coming down here. We have heard


about the new broadband roll-out, and the new iPhone, which will be


compatible with the new broadband network. They are the only people


allowed to operate that, and that have the capacity. There is a


competition issues behind this -- a competition issue behind this. Mido


Yap ownership and plurality. -- media ownership and variety. The


net has not been cast too wide. Many people think that David


Cameron has rushed the decision. I'm glad to have raised that. It is


a big agenda. But you have not spoken to Maria Miller and none of


us have. But you have spoken to John Whittingdale, the influential


Conservative MP who chairs the Culture Select Committee and did


the interviews and investigations with the Murdochs. He has spoken to


you about Leveson. What has he said? He says the remit was to wind.


I think he thinks but he did not say this, that it was set up in a


rush. -- the remit was too wide. I think he thinks it was not fully


thought through. He was probably right. As a consequence, he thinks


the things that provoked it, her phone hacking and police corruption


and the cover-up, all of that, and what actually went wrong, as Chris


Bryant said this morning, that has not be looked at yet. Because the


legal action is ongoing. Leveson is to that point, it may not be worth


doing. Whittingdale says, look, it has become an open house. Anyone


with a grievance against the press, many of them justified, have had


their say. Imagine you set up an inquiry into lawyers and said OK,


come and have your say. There would be queues around the block. So of


us only dream of something like that? --! I am prepared to share


that inquiry. What you get with phone hacking, you're left with


Page Three, which is an important and controversial issue but we have


set up a judicial inquiry to look into it. There is brewing on the


Tory benches, concern about where David Cameron might have got them


too. Because when it comes to the implementation phase of whatever


Leveson suggests, it is a hot potato. Because they are still very


frightened. Parliament is very frightened of the press and that is


why Leveson is so crucial. The press got to a stage when no one


could question its power and the Bay Area... -- the Big Issue...


Present company excepted. Privacy is a key area, and it lies behind


much of a staff. It Leveson can get to a point where people have the


right to privacy even if they if you grant... I will say that, even


if you look at what is happening the courts, 18 months ago we are in


the world of superinjunctions and no one can be named, not even the


fact that a superinjunction exists can be mentioned. Since then, the


course of balanced the right to freedom of speech with the right to


privacy and just the other week, Steve McClaren, the former English


manager was told to sling his hook whilst trying to prevent issues


about his private life. This issue has been resolved in practice, case


by case, by judges. I worry about anyone not withstanding Leveson's


obvious talents, coming out with anything that sought to establish


once and for all and absolutely -- in an absolute way, lines that


cannot be crossed. You end up with figures of public interest, try to


define the public interest in law, or in in -- or in any way that is


not contingent on a case-by-case analysis, that puts us in an odd


place. The judges are all over the place. One judges very tough on


these issues, and there were stringent privacy rulings that came


in. But now the most recent rulings show the judges taking a rather


more liberal, permissive approach. At the basic way of thinking about


it is shifting. It is being worked out case-by-case. In effect, people


who deserve this and are entitled to it... I think everyone is


entitled to it, even famous actors and people who are filmstar as.


There was research on zoo animals, and if they're given no privacy, if


the public can see everything they do, including reproductive


practices and so on, they go barmy. That is why animals in zoos often


go barmy. By most animals did not choose to put themselves in the zoo.


-- but most animals. There is a flaw in de Zeeuw model? If somebody


chooses to be an actor, that means they have to sweep their cars for


bugs? I take your point. Can I say one more point about the new


Secretary of State. One of her predecessors wrote something


intelligent about this. The thing is, when you going to these jobs


you need to establish the framework. You need an issue, something that


is going to be your concern. Jeremy Hunt did it with local TV and not


withstanding the endless rumpus over Murdoch and all the rest of it,


he is still seen as the person who did local TV. We have no idea what


Maria Miller is going to establish as her centrepiece. And I am


tempted to think that in spite of all the controversial issues coming


up, internet pornography, you name it, the Olympic legacy might be the


one that they have to worry about most. Imagine this, having had huge


success of the Olympics, if in 18 months' time, that legacy is seen


to have been squandered in terms of school sports and childhood obesity,


participation, volunteering. If that is seen to have been


squandered, that will do a lot of damage. Maybe she will make that


the thing she concentrates on. Do Yes. I always thought we were


totally unbalanced. There are times when democracy gets unbalanced.


Nobody dare take on a raid just things in the press and that was


offensive. -- offensive things. There will be great pressure on the


Prime Minister to immediately accept the recommendations of


Leveson. I hope he will not. What he's saying is this is political


dynamite. Labour are free and clear. They cannot do anything about it


until the next election because they are not in office. They are


striking are hard line in terms of statutory underpinning. Does David


Miliband want to spend the 18 months in the run-up to the next


election as the party trying to muzzle the press? Now, last week it


was the Greens. We have had the TUC and now it is the time of Plaid


Cymru. Members will be gathering in Brecon tomorrow for that and you


will get together. Leanne Wood will be making her maiden conference


speech as leader, having been elected in March. She joins us from


Cardiff. What you hope to achieve that your leadership? I have said,


it since I have been the leader of Plaid Cymru, that a once the


economy to be my party central priority. -- that I want. We have


to do everything we can to create jobs. People are feeling the


squeeze. Cuts are being felt, particularly badly, in Wales. Many


people are struggling to put food on the table and pay heating bills.


Jobs have to be the priority. That has to be the central focus of my


conference speech, when I deliver it tomorrow. On the economy, will


you continue, under your leadership, to position Plaid Cymru to their


left of the Labour Party on economic matters? -- to the left.


In Wales, the centre of political gravity is to the left. The main


focus for Plaid Cymru is to ensure that we can put together a


programme of government that will speak to everyone in Wales. As they


have already said, the cuts that Tara affecting us worse here, the


public sector is bigger. -- that are affecting us. The economy has


to be the top priorities. understanding is that the position


of Plaid Cymru on independence is not as clear cut. The demand is not


as immediate as the Scottish National position. The constitution


is very much in the news at the moment because of what is happening


in Scotland. Wales is a very different countries. We have made


no secret about the fact that independence is something we strive


for in the long term. At the moment, the economy is the issue that most


people are deeply concerned about. Many young people are at the moment


have no chance of a job weight- training place. Very many young


people have very little hope for the future. -- or a training place.


The need to provide hope for a generation of young people who


deserve to have a future to look forward to. They will cease to have


a huge, vibrant economy. It was built on the old dirty industries


but it was a huge economic powerhouse. As the old industries


have declined, Wales has become more and more independent on the


public sector. It is a bigger public sector, as it is in the


North of England and Scotland as well. I knew too dependent on the


public sector? We need to do more to grow the private sector. -- are


you too dependent? The business sector needs to become larger. I


will be outlining a number of measures to improve the Welsh


economy. One thing you could hear a lot of is a by a local campaign. We


will try to encourage people to spend more money in local shops and


businesses than in supermarkets, as a waiter tried to lock money in and


encourage economic stimulation -- ate way to try to lock money in and


encourage economic stimulation. There are a lot fewer companies


setting up in wares at the moment. Our share of inward investment has


gone Dang quite considerably. -- in Wales. Our economic Commission has


come up with a report showing the Welsh economy has been in decline


for more than 20 years. Rather than think about what various strategies


we have been to do since the end of the Kohl era, we need some new


thinking, to try to think of different ways of stimulating the


economy. The central focus has to be job creation. We need a new deal


for Wales. That is so we can build up resilience in the economy.


the information age, often the brains of the people matter most of


all. The quality of the education system matters most of all. We see


that in Hong Kong and Singapore, or Finland and Sweden. There has been


a lot of criticism recently of the Welsh school system. Some reports


have been saying that exam results are not anywhere near as good as


they should be. There is no doubt that Wales can do better in terms


of education. We understand the importance of education. My family


background is in mining. The miners give us libraries. The really to


understand the importance of education and we need to up our


game on up front. It is unacceptable that the numbers of


young people of who leave school who cannot read and write. Literacy


will be something we will advocate as part of our programme. Coming


back to independence, we do except if the Scottish nationalists did


get a referendum in 2014, and they call it upon the Scots to vote


against independence - if they do - we just accept that would make the


issue of Welsh independents dead for a generation or more? -- would


you accept? Noah macro. Whatever the outcome of the Scottish


referendum, the relationship will have to change. -- no. That needs


to be done regardless of the outcome of the Scottish referendum.


Surely the Busch regard themselves as more than equal. We regard


ourselves as people at the moment. We're not getting an equal deal. In


the future, we should have a more equal place. It is good to talk to


you. Thank you for joining as. I hope the conference is interesting.


Thank you very much. Now, Her Majesty's Royal ears must be


burning at the moment, as yet more buildings are named after her. The


Olympic Park will become the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park. And the


clock tower at Westminster - that houses the famous Big Ben bell -


will today be named the Elizabeth Tower, after MPs voted to change


the name to mark the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. I've always wanted


to send our reporters to the tower. Here's Adam with a view from the


top. The world knows it as Big Ben. For 153 years, the official title


was the clock tower. Yesterday it was renamed the Elizabeth Tower,


after the Queen. I'm getting a VIP tour. First, health and safety.


Strictly speaking, the Tessa -- the decibel level when the bell strikes


is below the danger of health and safety level. We do give these


little ear plugs, or ear defenders cut out to people. Let's be brave


and leave them behind. I have the big industrial ones because I am up


here three times a day. Then it is onwards and upwards and upwards


some more. This is three had and 16 ft tall. We're nearly half way. --


316 ft tall. You have to turn around. You can see the number of


stairs you climb. 182. How many more to go? Crikey, just over 200


Foster of beneath every great clock is a great big pendulum. -- just


over 200. That pendulum is about four metres long. At the end of it,


at the bottom of it, is a 400 lb great. That is what makes the


pendulum swim -- swing - that weight. A bit more climbing and


with bumps into a famous face. is the south-facing Clock Face


which looks over Parliament. See the bracket above my head. That is


the supporting mechanism for the minute hand. If you look to the


left, you can see these lightbulbs. They liked the dials at night time.


Finally, you cannot top this. Up close with the country's favourite


L - Big Ben. It is so loud it broke our microphone. -- favourite Bell.


Will the change of name make any difference? I do not think so. It


will be renamed the Elizabeth Talbot we will still call it Big


Ben. That is not Big Ben now. -- Elizabeth Tower. I am sure we will


continue to call it Big Ben. Still, if she does ever come up here, she


will get a lovely view of a power house. And the man behind the


rebrand, Conservative MP Tobias Ellwood, joins us now. It can only


be a matter of days before you knighthood is in the post will


start I am delighted to see the name has been changed. -- in the


post. The Victoria Tower is at the West End. It was originally called


the King's Tower. It is a wonderful tribute to an amazing life. It is a


reminder of what it is to be British. Isn't this a fact that we


are all going to call it Big Ben custom up I hope that does not


change. Sir Benjamin Hall put the belt up. It will be Elizabeth Tower.


-- the bell. Do you want us to refer to it as the Elizabeth Tower?


You can refer to both. The bell is Big Ben. Can I mention a problem?


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