13/09/2012 Daily Politics


13/09/2012

Andrew Neil with political news, interviews and debate. Andrew talks to Labour's Andy Burnham about the Hillsborough tragedy and Esther Rantzen about her new charity, Silverline.


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It will come to the Daily Politics. After the truth on Hillsborough,

:00:42.:00:46.

the real truth, or where now for the victims' families? Andy Burnham

:00:46.:00:50.

joins us to discuss the next stage in their fight for justice.

:00:50.:00:56.

It is time for a shock to the system according to the Defence

:00:56.:01:01.

Secretary, Liam Fox, he calls today for tax and welfare cuts to get the

:01:01.:01:06.

economy were moving. Just what the doctor ordered or bad medicine? --

:01:06.:01:10.

get the economy moving. We will discuss fresh calls today for a

:01:10.:01:15.

rethink on protecting foreign aid. And what would you call this? Big

:01:15.:01:21.

Ben? No. The clock tower? Know. The Elizabeth power? The right answer.

:01:21.:01:31.

We will discuss the rebrand and ask if the new name will stick. -- the

:01:31.:01:32.

Elizabeth Tower. All that in the next hour and with

:01:32.:01:38.

me for the duration, broadcaster and commentator, erstwhile

:01:38.:01:41.

political candidate Esther Rantzen. Welcome to the programme. Let's

:01:41.:01:45.

start with what has dominated the news for 24 hours, Hillsborough. We

:01:45.:01:49.

had a string of apologies yesterday after the publication of the report

:01:49.:01:55.

of the Hillsborough independent panel, including from the Prime

:01:55.:01:57.

Minister in the House of Commons but this morning we have had

:01:57.:02:01.

another one from Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, who was editor of

:02:01.:02:04.

the Spectator magazine and had published a controversial editorial

:02:04.:02:10.

which many people in Liverpool found highly offensive. This report

:02:10.:02:16.

lays to rest the false allegation was made at the time about the

:02:16.:02:22.

behaviour of those fans, and a repeat that I was very sorry in

:02:22.:02:27.

2004 or that the spectator did write an editorial that partially

:02:27.:02:31.

repeated those allegations. I apologise them and I apologise now.

:02:31.:02:37.

May I say that I hope that the families of the 96 victims will

:02:37.:02:43.

take some comfort to from this report and that they can reach some

:02:43.:02:48.

sort of closure. Boris Johnson apologising for an editorial he did

:02:48.:02:53.

not right but his editor -- as editor, he carries the can. For his

:02:53.:02:57.

new controversial day today with Jack Straw suggesting that the

:02:57.:03:00.

Thatcher government in power at the time of the tragedy created a

:03:00.:03:05.

culture of impunity around the police, contributing to the

:03:05.:03:09.

handling of the events in April of 1989. Let's listen to what he had

:03:09.:03:15.

to say. The Thatcher government, because they needed a police to be

:03:15.:03:19.

a partisan force, particularly for the miners' strike, created a

:03:19.:03:25.

culture of impunity in the police service and they really were immune

:03:25.:03:28.

from outside influences. They thought they could rule the roost

:03:28.:03:36.

and that is what we absolutely sock in South Yorkshire. Jack Straw

:03:36.:03:39.

speaking on Radio 4 this morning. Andy Burnham, who has been a

:03:39.:03:44.

leading campaigner over the Hillsborough business, joins us now.

:03:44.:03:49.

Welcome to the show. Do you agree with Jack Straw at Hillsborough can

:03:49.:03:53.

partly be explained by a culture of impunity among the South Yorkshire

:03:53.:03:59.

Police? I think there was a culture and society in the 1980s where

:03:59.:04:02.

certain groups were treated as second-class citizens and football

:04:02.:04:06.

supporters were in that category. There was a casual disregard for

:04:06.:04:10.

people's welfare and safety at football matches. Everything was

:04:10.:04:15.

seen through the prism of hooliganism. That bred a culture of

:04:15.:04:19.

negligence when it came to safety at football grounds, and sadly it

:04:19.:04:23.

is one of the reasons, as laid out in the report yesterday, that we

:04:23.:04:27.

saw so many terrible deaths. Jack Straw is blaming the Thatcher

:04:27.:04:31.

Government for creating this culture. In return, he is saying it

:04:31.:04:34.

was this culture of impunity that leads to what happened at

:04:34.:04:38.

Hillsborough. Do you agree? I think it was a time where there was not

:04:38.:04:42.

sufficient accountability. The police could do things and police -

:04:42.:04:46.

- people had no way of fighting back. I think at the time, the

:04:46.:04:50.

Government was very obsessed with the Football Supporters Bill, and

:04:50.:04:54.

it saw everything as an issue of hooliganism. So Jack Straw is

:04:54.:04:59.

right? I think the government of that time has questions to answer,

:04:59.:05:02.

but so to everybody. How did Parliament allows such an injustice

:05:02.:05:06.

to stand for so long and why did my own party not do more to help the

:05:06.:05:11.

families? I think everyone needs to look at themselves and ask

:05:11.:05:15.

questions about what they did or did not do and then we will get

:05:15.:05:19.

towards some reconciliation. I do not think today is the day to make

:05:19.:05:24.

it a party political point. A I'm glad you raised that. Was Mr Straw

:05:24.:05:28.

right, at a time when there is party political consensus, with a

:05:28.:05:33.

process started by you and other Labour MPs, continued by a

:05:34.:05:36.

Conservative-led government, leading to a statement by the Prime

:05:36.:05:39.

Minister preys on all sides, is it right to introduce party politics

:05:39.:05:44.

to this? I am not sure he is. saying the Thatcher government

:05:44.:05:49.

needed a police to be a partisan force! Let's not be shutting down

:05:49.:05:53.

the debate when the panel has issued this report. There are

:05:53.:05:57.

legitimate questions to be asked about the culture that existed in

:05:57.:06:00.

the police force and the way in which the government of the day

:06:00.:06:05.

handled it. Those are legitimate questions. Yes, the Prime Minister

:06:05.:06:07.

was outstanding in the House of Commons last night and I was at

:06:07.:06:11.

Liverpool last night, and we are not known for lavishing praise on

:06:11.:06:15.

Tory politicians but he was receiving great praise from the

:06:15.:06:18.

people of Liverpool and that is a good thing. But today, everyone has

:06:18.:06:22.

questions to answer and this process of accountability needs to

:06:22.:06:26.

start properly. If Jack Straw really thought that, rather than

:06:26.:06:30.

making a party political point this morning, why did he make such a

:06:30.:06:35.

mess of the investigation into Hillsborough? If he really thought

:06:35.:06:39.

that, why did he not do more to get to the bottom of it? You had 13

:06:39.:06:45.

years in power and if this is what you really thought... And yet Mr

:06:45.:06:49.

Straw came up with a milk and water report. One about the media?

:06:49.:06:54.

Everyone has questions to answer. - - what about the media. I said

:06:54.:06:57.

sorry to the people of Liverpool that they had to wait so long. They

:06:58.:07:01.

accepted what I have described as an establishment culpability, which

:07:01.:07:08.

I think the report was. How can that report have looked at the fact

:07:08.:07:13.

that 80 3:15pm cut-off, cruel and immoral, with no moral or medical

:07:14.:07:18.

legal justification could be put in place? The effect of it was that

:07:18.:07:21.

parents, for the first time yesterday, found out what happens

:07:21.:07:26.

to their children. How can any right-minded feeling person look at

:07:26.:07:32.

that original inquest and conclude that it was good enough? My mystery

:07:32.:07:37.

is this. Speaking as a professional broadcaster and journalist, the

:07:37.:07:42.

media were there, television was there. The press was there. There

:07:42.:07:51.

happened. How is it, with all of us present, you say that everyone has

:07:51.:07:55.

questions to answer, the media has huge questions to answer. How could

:07:55.:08:00.

we allow a cover-up to stand for 23 years? That is a question more for

:08:01.:08:05.

the media Andy Burnham. question is, how could Parliament

:08:05.:08:09.

and the media allies such an injustice on this scale, such a

:08:09.:08:15.

cover-up on this scale to carry on for so long? -- allow such an

:08:15.:08:21.

injustice. By set up a panel on the recommendation of a journalist who

:08:21.:08:28.

was looking at police statements. Back to the rational situation,

:08:28.:08:33.

there are issues from the Leveson Inquiry here. There are 96 family's

:08:33.:08:37.

year, like the Milly Dowler family, where in the moment of grief, the

:08:37.:08:43.

media run -- rode roughshod over them. They added pain to their pain.

:08:43.:08:46.

Liverpool has campaigned over this, but why did nobody will say,

:08:46.:08:51.

actually, they might have a point and why don't we do something to

:08:51.:08:53.

unlock the healthy culture of complicity between the police and

:08:53.:08:58.

the press? We did not and it leads to some of the later abuses in

:08:58.:09:02.

hacking and other things, in my view. What happens next? It happens

:09:02.:09:07.

22 years ago. How difficult would be to get criminal prosecutions?

:09:07.:09:11.

think it will be difficult. But they must be fully investigated.

:09:11.:09:15.

There has to be a full process of accountability. What sort of

:09:15.:09:19.

investigation should that be that would best lead to criminal

:09:19.:09:24.

prosecution of those involved in what was, essentially, a deception

:09:24.:09:28.

and the cover up? Yvette Cooper is writing to the Hon secretary today

:09:28.:09:32.

to ask her to lay out how this will now happen. There has to be a

:09:32.:09:36.

proper process. People have serious questions to answer. I would like

:09:36.:09:42.

to make the point, given the family's -- we have given the

:09:42.:09:45.

family's truth and now we want justice. We look at the inquest

:09:45.:09:54.

into V3 50 cut-off. -- 3:15pm cut- off. I will not rest until we

:09:54.:09:57.

overcome this verdict of accidental death. You could not conclude that

:09:57.:10:01.

it was accidental having read the report. I want an assurance that if

:10:01.:10:06.

we get a new inquest, it will receive all the evidence, not be

:10:06.:10:10.

amended statements, the original statements. The original statements

:10:10.:10:15.

that those police officers wrote. Do you know if the most senior

:10:15.:10:19.

people likely to be in the frame of this investigation, are they still

:10:19.:10:27.

live? Many people in the frame are still alive. I think they have very

:10:27.:10:31.

serious questions to answer. They need to explain either why they

:10:31.:10:34.

acted as they did, what they need to apologise and account for

:10:34.:10:38.

themselves. So there are some senior people, maybe some of them

:10:38.:10:44.

watching this programme, probably retired by now, they should be

:10:44.:10:47.

beginning to wonder, and they may be facing jail sentences of this

:10:47.:10:52.

process goes from Trust to justice. I cannot say what the appropriate

:10:52.:10:59.

action is? -- from truth to justice. I know that what they did was

:10:59.:11:05.

unacceptable. They have to account for themselves and the full force

:11:05.:11:09.

of the law should be brought to pass. Can anybody justify a police

:11:09.:11:12.

national computer check on the bodies of children lying in a

:11:12.:11:16.

football ground? It is just despicable on every level. There

:11:16.:11:20.

has to be accountability. The family's need it. We have had the

:11:20.:11:26.

truth and we are now waiting on the justice. Thank you very much. It is

:11:26.:11:28.

the 64,000 dollar question, actually that is not all that much

:11:28.:11:32.

money these days. It is a bigger question than that. What is the

:11:32.:11:37.

best way to restore growth to the economy? One man -- one man is Liam

:11:37.:11:41.

Fox, he has some ideas. He says that the economy needs a shot to

:11:41.:11:47.

the system in the form of immediate tax and welfare cuts. Dr Fox says

:11:47.:11:51.

that Capital Gains Tax, where people are charged when they sell

:11:51.:11:54.

assets on which they have made a profit, should be scrapped for

:11:54.:11:58.

three years, leading to money calling into Britain from fast-

:11:58.:12:01.

calling into Britain from fast- growing parts of Asia. -- money

:12:01.:12:06.

flowing. We should make it easier, he says, for businesses to fire and

:12:06.:12:09.

hire workers, and he says we know that works because it has worked

:12:09.:12:12.

that works because it has worked before. He says and paternity leave

:12:12.:12:16.

should be abolished as part of the agenda. Money could also be saved

:12:16.:12:21.

by withdrawing free TV licences and winter fuel payments for the

:12:21.:12:24.

better-off pensioners. Something that David Cameron has promised not

:12:24.:12:28.

to do. Earlier this week, Dr Fox was one

:12:29.:12:34.

of several Conservative MPs who launched a new group, called

:12:34.:12:37.

Conservative Voice, aiming to promote the virtues of the free-

:12:37.:12:42.

market, social mobility and a smaller state. Values which will

:12:42.:12:47.

help the party connect with voters help the party connect with voters

:12:47.:12:50.

and win the next election. So says Conservative voice. One of the MPs

:12:50.:12:55.

involved in the launch is Steve Barclay and he is here now with

:12:55.:13:01.

Stephen Williams. It is the battle of the Stephens. Steve Barclay, of

:13:01.:13:04.

why would CAS a gold chains -- a capital gains cut bring growth to

:13:04.:13:07.

the economy. We need to trade our way out of our economic

:13:07.:13:13.

difficulties and a key part of that is exports. But also getting money

:13:13.:13:16.

invested from abroad in the UK. And cutting Capital Gains Tax will make

:13:16.:13:20.

a big difference in terms of sending a signal to the world and

:13:20.:13:26.

encouraging people to invest in the UK. But why? I do not understand

:13:26.:13:31.

the mechanism. He only wants a holiday for three years. He won the

:13:31.:13:35.

Asians to bring their money in, invest, take the profit before the

:13:35.:13:39.

window ends, and golf. Liam has suggested that after three years,

:13:39.:13:45.

it will be at a lower rate. Send a signal. The Olympics has sent a

:13:45.:13:49.

positive message to the world but we need to go further and faster.

:13:49.:13:53.

What evidence do you have that the level of capital gains tax in any

:13:53.:13:57.

way inhibits investment in this country. You have just seen the

:13:57.:14:02.

Chinese to a �2 billion investment in our country, so where is the

:14:02.:14:08.

evidence? In part, the evidence is there for a look at the Blair years.

:14:08.:14:12.

Certain tax breaks were given and is have a very positive effect

:14:12.:14:15.

within sectors of the economy. And we have seen that if you look at

:14:15.:14:19.

the Laursen reforms, cutting tax can have an extremely positive

:14:19.:14:23.

impact. What we need to do is send out a message across the world that

:14:23.:14:27.

this is a country that people should be investing in and reducing

:14:27.:14:32.

Capital Gains Tax, having that single -- signal -- signal sent out

:14:32.:14:36.

would be the right message. Is it right that a rich Asian should pay

:14:36.:14:42.

a lower level of income tax than a hard-working doctor would pay?

:14:42.:14:45.

already have different rates of tax for different people. Do you think

:14:45.:14:50.

that is right? Unless you think you'll have one tax rate across all

:14:50.:14:55.

asset classes, it is inevitable. In the real-world, there will be

:14:55.:15:00.

different tax breaks. Are you in favour of the lower rate? I think

:15:00.:15:06.

it got pushed up to 28% from Vince Cable. It was, when we came in

:15:06.:15:10.

Capital Gains Tax was at 18%, lower than income tax and the basic rate

:15:10.:15:16.

of income tax. It is now 28%. It is still actually quite low in real

:15:16.:15:20.

terms but I think it is bizarre economics that Liam Fox, my

:15:20.:15:23.

constituency neighbour, is suggesting and maybe he does on

:15:23.:15:27.

notice that the Government is cutting corporation tax, up until

:15:27.:15:31.

2015. Most businesses looking at whether to invest in the UK or role

:15:31.:15:39.

in the UK will find it in the rate of business tax. Why not change the

:15:39.:15:46.

cut of business tax, when corporation tax would encourage

:15:46.:15:50.

companies coming here for the long- term to invest in Britain as has

:15:50.:16:00.
:16:00.:16:03.

As a Conservative Cup I would like to see tax lowered wherever

:16:03.:16:08.

possible. In four years' time, as a country, we will we spending �61

:16:09.:16:13.

billion more a year them we are officio. The need to look at all

:16:13.:16:20.

the options. -- than we are this year. That is why we need to trade

:16:20.:16:25.

away out of the difficulties. Part of that is getting exports moving.

:16:25.:16:33.

There has been progress in certain areas like corporation tax. Since

:16:33.:16:37.

you raised capital gains tax. It was a Lib Dem initiative. Can you

:16:37.:16:44.

tell us what has happened to those revenues? I cannot off the top of

:16:44.:16:51.

my head. The honest answer is, it is probably too early to save.

:16:51.:16:57.

is what the Chinese leader said about the French Revolution. You do

:16:57.:17:03.

need two or three years to assess it. There is a lot of academic

:17:03.:17:08.

literature on this. When corporation tax gets above the mid-

:17:08.:17:13.

20s, it starts to have a negative return. It is difficult to know

:17:13.:17:20.

where to strike the balance. There are other get out clauses. It is to

:17:20.:17:25.

encourage entrepreneurs to take a risk with their own money to invest

:17:25.:17:33.

in the United Kingdom. I do not want punitive rates. To put it into

:17:33.:17:39.

context, it will cost �3.7 billion a year. That is what we spend in

:17:39.:17:47.

overseas aid. This is a double achievement. It would send a very

:17:47.:17:54.

positive investment. You want to cut overseas aid? I am not saying

:17:54.:18:00.

that battle. These figures become so large that people lose context.

:18:00.:18:08.

-- and that at all. That is true. I have no idea what a trillion is the

:18:08.:18:12.

star of David Cameron made a strong point saying, they will not

:18:12.:18:22.
:18:22.:18:24.

withdraw these universal benefits. -- bought a trillion is. You want

:18:24.:18:29.

to get rid of that. You got elected saying you would not do it. There a

:18:29.:18:34.

two different issues. We're trying to rebuild the economy and rebuild

:18:34.:18:40.

trust in politics. If you look at it in purely economic terms, it is

:18:40.:18:44.

difficult to defend when someone in Spain gets the winter fuel

:18:44.:18:47.

allowance for someone on a six figure salary - or someone who is

:18:47.:18:53.

very wealthy - gets a universal benefit. From an economic viewpoint,

:18:53.:18:58.

it is difficult to defend. It is not that simplistic. There was a

:18:58.:19:07.

wider issue of trust. It is difficult... It would mean breaking

:19:07.:19:13.

your word. We have to be more honest about this in politics.

:19:13.:19:18.

do you think? Should all pensioners get these benefits? I am

:19:18.:19:22.

uncomfortable getting a winter fuel allowance. There are people who

:19:22.:19:27.

give it to charity. There are ways of doing that. I am interested in

:19:27.:19:32.

how you intend having, for a very brief period being a candidate in

:19:32.:19:37.

elections, I know how difficult it is getting the message across. How

:19:37.:19:41.

were you persuade people to vote for you if you are going to say,

:19:41.:19:45.

we're going to make rich people richer and little old people will

:19:45.:19:51.

have to give up their money? key is getting jobs and getting

:19:51.:19:56.

prosperity into the economy. The benefit of capital gains tax is to

:19:56.:20:00.

get a entrepreneurs investing in the UK, which creates jobs and

:20:00.:20:04.

business is growing. The beneficiaries of that are people

:20:04.:20:09.

like my constituents, who will benefit from the jobs from that. As

:20:09.:20:14.

you know, there is plenty of money around. There are people with

:20:14.:20:20.

assets but they are not investing. How do we encourage them to invest?

:20:20.:20:24.

A Lib Dem perspective on cutting the benefits for better-off

:20:24.:20:34.

pensioners. I do not see any particular attraction in doing that.

:20:34.:20:44.
:20:44.:20:46.

Why should she get a free life -- licence? I do not. I am too young.

:20:46.:20:53.

She is weight under 75. I thought you got it at 55. -- way under.

:20:53.:21:01.

There ought to be a mechanism for people who feel they do not need it.

:21:01.:21:07.

It might be easier then clawing it back. On the bus pass, you might

:21:07.:21:11.

save the Duchess of Beaufort should not have it. It would be quite nice

:21:11.:21:18.

to see her on a bus. That is how we have a cohesive society. I do not

:21:18.:21:23.

even know what she looks like. could have been sitting beside you.

:21:23.:21:29.

When we last on a bus? A couple of weeks ago. What do you think about

:21:29.:21:37.

the dramatic moves off with join paternity leave altogether? No.

:21:37.:21:42.

not do it. It is absolutely crucial for a new man to have a has been

:21:42.:21:48.

next to her during knows very difficult first weeks. -- a new mum

:21:49.:21:58.

to have a husband next to her. Conservative Voice is up and

:21:58.:22:08.
:22:08.:22:11.

running now. You will get a knife on the way out free of pencil. --

:22:11.:22:14.

for your pencil. Now, if Liam Fox wasn't enough, the Chancellor has

:22:14.:22:16.

also been getting some advice from recently sacked Defence Minister

:22:16.:22:20.

Gerald Howarth. They start to say what they really think well of and

:22:20.:22:28.

not telling me what they really think on this programme. -- rather

:22:28.:22:31.

than not telling Mr Howarth has urged the Chancellor to resist

:22:31.:22:34.

further cuts to the Defence budget and look again at the Government's

:22:34.:22:37.

commitment to increasing spending on foreign aid. So, will Mr Osborne

:22:37.:22:40.

listen, and should he? Adam Fleming is in Central Lobby to see how Mr

:22:40.:22:46.

Howarth's suggestion has been greeted by MPs. The Government has

:22:46.:22:51.

a plan to, at some point for introduce legislation enshrining in

:22:51.:22:57.

law its pledge to spend 0.7% of the country's international income --

:22:57.:23:03.

national income on international aid. It is said that pledge should

:23:03.:23:08.

be abandoned and that money should go to the military instead. We have

:23:08.:23:15.

two MPs who are on the opposite end of the spectrum. We have Philip

:23:15.:23:19.

Davis the Conservative and Marco entries from the Labour Party. You

:23:19.:23:29.
:23:29.:23:29.

must think it is a great idea? Haworth is absolutely right. How

:23:29.:23:34.

can we cut back on our armed forces? Cut back on all sorts of

:23:34.:23:39.

things that are worth well because we do not have enough money and yet

:23:39.:23:44.

spend too had an �80 million a year to India, who do not want it nor

:23:44.:23:53.

need it. This is gesture politics. Why not put the health service

:23:53.:23:57.

budget in law or the police service budget? The Government does not

:23:57.:24:02.

need to enshrine this in law. tried to pass your own bill to get

:24:02.:24:10.

it enshrined in law. What is your reaction? It is the same vault Tory

:24:10.:24:17.

Party. David Cameron wanted to detoxify the brand. -- the same old

:24:17.:24:23.

Tory Party. We have international obligations. Members of the United

:24:23.:24:29.

Nations, all of these members have this target of 0.7, which was

:24:29.:24:32.

introduced in 1970. They have still not been introduced by this

:24:32.:24:38.

government. This government is committed to introducing it by 2013.

:24:38.:24:42.

We talk about looking after poor people. This government has given a

:24:42.:24:46.

tax cut to millionaires and a cut in benefits for British people. We

:24:46.:24:51.

can give to poor people in this country as well as poor people

:24:51.:25:01.

abroad. Why that target? Apart from having that target, there is also

:25:01.:25:05.

an organisation which looks at the effectiveness of spending. It is

:25:05.:25:10.

about quantity and quality. It is important, as the 21st century

:25:10.:25:16.

nation that is leading the way many other ways, to get international

:25:16.:25:21.

respect. All three parties campaign on it and they should all support

:25:21.:25:26.

it. Let's talk about the politics. Justine Greening is the new

:25:26.:25:30.

International Development Secretary. Was she dropped the target? I do

:25:30.:25:37.

not know. She is an accountant and I hope she will put her accountancy

:25:37.:25:40.

had on the make sure we extract proper value for money and not to

:25:40.:25:47.

spend money for the sake of the spending it. -- her accountancy hat

:25:47.:25:53.

on and make sure. I think he might be shocked to find that the vast

:25:53.:25:57.

majority of his constituents think the amount of money going to India

:25:57.:26:06.

is ludicrous, as they do in mind. We believe in international

:26:06.:26:10.

development. We're not nationalists, we're internationalists. In the

:26:10.:26:14.

21st century, everyone on the planet should have a fair deal.

:26:14.:26:19.

That means dealing with major diseases and dealing with the

:26:19.:26:25.

eradication of poverty. What about this idea that AIDS is a form of

:26:25.:26:31.

soft power that helps us by friends and influence around the world?

:26:31.:26:35.

we are trying to alleviate poverty, let's focus money on that. If we

:26:35.:26:39.

want to buy influence around the world, let's put it into the

:26:39.:26:43.

foreign office and let them do their job. They are supposed to be

:26:43.:26:47.

putting money into alleviating terrible poverty. I do not have a

:26:47.:26:50.

problem with that. The international development budget is

:26:50.:26:54.

more than we can afford. We are having to borrow money to give two

:26:55.:27:02.

countries like India that do not need it. -- give it two countries.

:27:02.:27:06.

When you listen to ministers, they seemed quite keen on spending the

:27:06.:27:12.

money but not so keen on passing legislation to define how much. We

:27:12.:27:18.

have just seen why. A very interesting debate indeed. The

:27:18.:27:20.

Government has described it as one of society's unspoken tragedies.

:27:20.:27:23.

Loneliness affects around a million older people, with many having

:27:23.:27:29.

contact with friends or family less than once a week. As well as the

:27:29.:27:32.

social impact, it is thought loneliness can also lead to health

:27:32.:27:36.

problems. So, how do you stop older people from feeling lonely? We sent

:27:36.:27:46.
:27:46.:27:57.

Susana to try a spot of quick step Meet Tom. He lives alone after his

:27:57.:28:04.

wife died four years ago. His stance Palmer has been a widow for

:28:04.:28:09.

20 years. -- dance partner. She does not see as much of her

:28:09.:28:16.

children as she used to now they're all grown up. It does not have the

:28:17.:28:22.

glitter of this Strictly ballroom but this tea dance does get them

:28:22.:28:28.

out and about. To come to a club like this, or any club, when there

:28:28.:28:34.

are lots of other people, I love people. A no time to be lonely.

:28:34.:28:40.

These people pile in every week for a chat, a cup of tea, and, of

:28:40.:28:49.

course, the Downs. The campaign to end Linnaeus shows -- to end

:28:49.:28:55.

loneliness shows half of all older people say television is their main

:28:55.:29:05.
:29:05.:29:05.

company. A during the day, I walk, dance or go to clubs. Not day

:29:05.:29:10.

centres of things like that but, in the night-time. Because I have my

:29:10.:29:15.

television, it is OK. Sometimes I am alone and I want to talk to

:29:15.:29:19.

someone and a watch television and they cannot talk to anyone.

:29:19.:29:27.

have no idea. Having been married for 62 years, it makes you only.

:29:27.:29:34.

You have to get over it. No way can we stay at home, clipping all the

:29:34.:29:37.

time. The Department of Health says older people who are lonely are

:29:37.:29:47.

more likely to go into residential or nursing care only -- early. What

:29:47.:29:51.

is the answer a? The Government says it has given guidance to local

:29:51.:29:56.

councils to stop people from feeling isolated. The woman who

:29:56.:30:01.

started ChildLine says what is needed is a helpline specifically

:30:01.:30:07.

for older people. That is being piloted this autumn. Some here are

:30:07.:30:12.

not comfortable with the idea of that. I do not think, particularly,

:30:12.:30:18.

I would like to talk to a stranger. Not really. It is like talking to

:30:18.:30:28.
:30:28.:30:34.

the Samaritans. Otherwise, I think Anyone answer is more cash in your

:30:34.:30:39.

pension. The St Anns costs 350 -- �3.50, and these people say that

:30:39.:30:43.

having enough money to go out allows them to avoid feeling lonely.

:30:43.:30:47.

When I was on Tomorrow's World, it was an achievement to be able to

:30:47.:30:52.

walk and talk at the same time, but on a Daily Politics, we can dance

:30:52.:30:56.

and two pieces to camera at the same time. How about that? We are

:30:56.:31:00.

joined by Paul Burstow, the Lib Dem MP who was until last week's

:31:00.:31:06.

reshuffle in minister at the Department of Health. -- a minister.

:31:06.:31:09.

You have a new initiative, tell us about that. It addresses the

:31:09.:31:15.

loneliness issue. There is a real stigma attached to loneliness,

:31:15.:31:19.

particularly in that generation, which is just a tiny bit ahead of

:31:19.:31:23.

me. I and 72, and they know about loneliness because I have

:31:23.:31:28.

experienced it. Those who were bereaved, whose family grows up and

:31:28.:31:33.

moves away, instead of being the centre of people who depend on you,

:31:33.:31:38.

and a company you in the evening, they have the room lights to leave

:31:38.:31:43.

-- they have their own lives to lead. One I wrote a piece about

:31:43.:31:46.

being lonely, a friend of mine said how could you write such a thing,

:31:46.:31:50.

have you not got too much pride? That is what made me realise about

:31:50.:31:56.

the stigma. If it is a stigma of abuse, and it is happening to

:31:56.:31:59.

children, Childline has told us that a helpline can liberate them

:31:59.:32:05.

because they can talk to a stranger about it without feeling humiliated.

:32:05.:32:12.

I put to the voluntary sector the idea that the helpline might do the

:32:12.:32:16.

same thing for older people who are feeling lonely, and they

:32:16.:32:20.

unanimously said yes. We're going to piloted in the autumn and we're

:32:20.:32:25.

going to launch it next year. We have had a small but vital donation

:32:25.:32:28.

from the Department of Health. Thanks, Paul. And we're going to

:32:28.:32:34.

say it is an open agenda. You ring the silver line with any question

:32:34.:32:44.

you want, and we will direct you because the sector is full of

:32:44.:32:47.

helpful advice and good provision, but people do not know where to

:32:47.:32:53.

turn. 42% of people over 65 do not know where to turn for help. The

:32:53.:33:02.

campaign discovered that. The umbrella helpline will contain a

:33:02.:33:05.

bank of silver line friends who will make book calls on a regular

:33:05.:33:10.

basis to people who want to talk to somebody, maybe in the evening or

:33:10.:33:13.

whenever is convenient. And there are helplines around the country,

:33:13.:33:19.

and they really shot increased morale and self-esteem, the

:33:19.:33:23.

capacity to link back into things like the dancing. It really makes a

:33:23.:33:26.

quantifiable difference. The Government wants us to encourage

:33:26.:33:32.

this. Absolutely. The white paper we publish this year on reforming

:33:32.:33:35.

carer support, the first part of the document is about this

:33:35.:33:38.

challenge of loneliness. It is one of the hit-in issues of our society.

:33:38.:33:44.

It is a big killer. That is why the Department of Health has backed

:33:44.:33:54.

this. -- one of the hidden issues. Four men, particularly, once they

:33:54.:33:57.

leave work and their wife dies, their social network falls away. It

:33:57.:34:01.

is about making sure that those people who have needs to have

:34:01.:34:05.

social connections have them. And I think the silver line is a clever

:34:05.:34:10.

way to help people make use of the sources around them. What do you

:34:10.:34:17.

say to the lady on a report to says that she does not like the idea. I

:34:17.:34:21.

can hear my own mother or grandmother who said, "I don't like

:34:21.:34:28.

to talk to strangers". You have to be tactful about the way you lead

:34:28.:34:31.

people from the question that they were ringing to ask about, to

:34:31.:34:36.

reveal that they would actually like a silver line friend. Once the

:34:36.:34:39.

phone call has been made, you are not strangers any more. Having

:34:39.:34:46.

watched helplines run by ordination it's like Age UK, listening to them

:34:46.:34:51.

talk to callers, there are strangers are told. -- helplines

:34:51.:34:57.

run by organisations like Aids UK. They are friends, they have got

:34:58.:35:02.

over the state of. Old people are very independent-minded. They think,

:35:02.:35:05.

I don't want to call a helpline because I do not lead -- do not

:35:05.:35:10.

need help. The first thing to break down stick my is to get the issues

:35:10.:35:13.

out there. People do not understand -- need to understand why it is

:35:13.:35:17.

worth doing something about. I know you're piloting this issue at the

:35:17.:35:24.

moment. We are. In the longer run, if it works, and the figure

:35:24.:35:28.

probably will work, will it have to be funded? Would be a charitable

:35:28.:35:33.

initiative? Will you raised money for this? We are a registered

:35:33.:35:37.

charity. We are limited company. We have done all of those things and

:35:37.:35:40.

we will depend on public generosity and the occasional excellent

:35:40.:35:45.

minister who notices but this is a real problem and can be solved.

:35:45.:35:51.

Will the Government do a bit of pump-priming? Basically, we have

:35:51.:35:54.

put some money in. As a minister, I was keen to see that happen. We

:35:54.:35:58.

have seen what Esther Rantzen can do. I think she has a vision for

:35:58.:36:05.

solving this problem. It is part of the solution. We have heard in the

:36:05.:36:07.

Department of Health that older people who are lonely are more

:36:07.:36:10.

likely to have to go into residential or nursing care, which

:36:10.:36:16.

in the end means loneliness=extra costs. -- loneliness results in

:36:17.:36:25.

extra costs. I do not eat properly FIM by myself in the evening. I

:36:25.:36:28.

balance a bit of cheese on the biscuit. They it depends on the

:36:28.:36:35.

cheese! -- if I am by myself. advantage I have is that I have

:36:35.:36:38.

felt it and I have been there and I will admit it. I am not talking

:36:38.:36:47.

about these people. Old people feel things and I am them. I know how

:36:47.:36:51.

difficult it is to admit it and how difficult it is to make that first

:36:51.:36:55.

phone call. I'm sure that if we keep an open agenda, they can ring

:36:56.:37:01.

us for any reason. Word of mouth might work as well, if a friend

:37:01.:37:07.

does it. Why did they get rid of you? What have you done? It is not

:37:07.:37:10.

about what I have done but there are other talented Liberal

:37:10.:37:14.

Democrats who deserve a chance. Musical chairs. I suppose it means

:37:14.:37:18.

you have more time to come and speak to us. I have time to take

:37:18.:37:22.

forward things I care about. have time to be a trustee of a very

:37:22.:37:28.

good charity. There you go, it all happens. We have a range of coffee

:37:29.:37:32.

for the both of you afterwards. You're watching the Daily Politics.

:37:32.:37:35.

We have been joined by viewers recently in Scotland. They were

:37:35.:37:40.

watching Scotland's first ministers and they joined us in the middle of

:37:40.:37:45.

our discussions. It is a big day for the Culture Secretary, Maria

:37:45.:37:49.

Miller, taking questions in the chamber for the first time since

:37:49.:37:55.

getting the job. Here is a flavour of her first spell in the spotlight.

:37:55.:37:58.

The Leveson Inquiry offers a historic opportunity to tackle the

:37:58.:38:02.

long-standing problems of the lack of a proper come -- proper press

:38:03.:38:05.

complaints system and the concentration of media ownership.

:38:05.:38:11.

What we saw from the independent report yesterday, 20 years before

:38:11.:38:14.

her Milly Dowler, was the ugly spectacle of collusion between the

:38:14.:38:19.

police and some elements of the press, inflicting pain and misery

:38:19.:38:25.

on innocent people who are already suffering. Will she asked Lord

:38:25.:38:28.

Justice Leveson to look at the implications of this. She is right.

:38:28.:38:34.

The rights issues which have clear lead across to the reform -- report

:38:34.:38:38.

announced yesterday. At this point in time, I would like to make sure

:38:38.:38:42.

that we continue to focus on the importance of getting it right for

:38:42.:38:46.

the families involved, that that is our focus first and foremost at

:38:46.:38:50.

this point in time. I can say to her that we will be looking at that

:38:50.:38:53.

report in great detail to make sure that any necessary actions are

:38:53.:39:01.

taken. That was the new culture minister, Maria Miller, her first

:39:01.:39:06.

outing was with Steve Hewlett, I think. The presenter of The Media

:39:06.:39:13.

Show. Which you should never mess. Welcome. -- never miss. You have

:39:13.:39:18.

interviewed her? No, I have not. I would like to but I have not.

:39:18.:39:24.

have not had a chance? No. How did she do in the Commons? Fine, as far

:39:24.:39:28.

as it goes. I thought she was very confident and very few people know

:39:28.:39:33.

much about her, certainly in the media. But she is incredible,

:39:33.:39:37.

confident performer. The problem is we have not the foggiest idea what

:39:37.:39:43.

she thinks about anything. We have got to know what Jeremy Hunt

:39:43.:39:48.

believed in. We have no idea her attitude towards the Leveson

:39:48.:39:52.

Inquiry or the Murdochs. There are issues coming down the track. From

:39:52.:39:56.

the outset, this is an unusual brief because in the Westminster

:39:56.:40:04.

village, it is very low status. The department is down there somewhere,

:40:04.:40:08.

but in the world out here, with the rest of us, it is very public. It

:40:08.:40:15.

is sport and movies and TV and radio. It is culture, art, and all

:40:15.:40:21.

those things. There are issues coming down here. We have heard

:40:21.:40:25.

about the new broadband roll-out, and the new iPhone, which will be

:40:25.:40:28.

compatible with the new broadband network. They are the only people

:40:29.:40:32.

allowed to operate that, and that have the capacity. There is a

:40:32.:40:39.

competition issues behind this -- a competition issue behind this. Mido

:40:39.:40:49.

Yap ownership and plurality. -- media ownership and variety. The

:40:49.:40:53.

net has not been cast too wide. Many people think that David

:40:53.:40:56.

Cameron has rushed the decision. I'm glad to have raised that. It is

:40:56.:41:02.

a big agenda. But you have not spoken to Maria Miller and none of

:41:02.:41:06.

us have. But you have spoken to John Whittingdale, the influential

:41:06.:41:09.

Conservative MP who chairs the Culture Select Committee and did

:41:09.:41:14.

the interviews and investigations with the Murdochs. He has spoken to

:41:14.:41:19.

you about Leveson. What has he said? He says the remit was to wind.

:41:19.:41:24.

I think he thinks but he did not say this, that it was set up in a

:41:24.:41:29.

rush. -- the remit was too wide. I think he thinks it was not fully

:41:29.:41:34.

thought through. He was probably right. As a consequence, he thinks

:41:34.:41:37.

the things that provoked it, her phone hacking and police corruption

:41:37.:41:41.

and the cover-up, all of that, and what actually went wrong, as Chris

:41:41.:41:45.

Bryant said this morning, that has not be looked at yet. Because the

:41:45.:41:53.

legal action is ongoing. Leveson is to that point, it may not be worth

:41:53.:41:56.

doing. Whittingdale says, look, it has become an open house. Anyone

:41:56.:42:00.

with a grievance against the press, many of them justified, have had

:42:00.:42:04.

their say. Imagine you set up an inquiry into lawyers and said OK,

:42:04.:42:10.

come and have your say. There would be queues around the block. So of

:42:10.:42:14.

us only dream of something like that? --! I am prepared to share

:42:15.:42:19.

that inquiry. What you get with phone hacking, you're left with

:42:19.:42:24.

Page Three, which is an important and controversial issue but we have

:42:24.:42:28.

set up a judicial inquiry to look into it. There is brewing on the

:42:29.:42:32.

Tory benches, concern about where David Cameron might have got them

:42:32.:42:37.

too. Because when it comes to the implementation phase of whatever

:42:37.:42:41.

Leveson suggests, it is a hot potato. Because they are still very

:42:41.:42:45.

frightened. Parliament is very frightened of the press and that is

:42:45.:42:48.

why Leveson is so crucial. The press got to a stage when no one

:42:48.:42:58.
:42:58.:43:01.

could question its power and the Bay Area... -- the Big Issue...

:43:01.:43:06.

Present company excepted. Privacy is a key area, and it lies behind

:43:06.:43:09.

much of a staff. It Leveson can get to a point where people have the

:43:10.:43:14.

right to privacy even if they if you grant... I will say that, even

:43:14.:43:19.

if you look at what is happening the courts, 18 months ago we are in

:43:19.:43:21.

the world of superinjunctions and no one can be named, not even the

:43:21.:43:25.

fact that a superinjunction exists can be mentioned. Since then, the

:43:25.:43:30.

course of balanced the right to freedom of speech with the right to

:43:30.:43:34.

privacy and just the other week, Steve McClaren, the former English

:43:34.:43:42.

manager was told to sling his hook whilst trying to prevent issues

:43:42.:43:46.

about his private life. This issue has been resolved in practice, case

:43:46.:43:52.

by case, by judges. I worry about anyone not withstanding Leveson's

:43:52.:43:55.

obvious talents, coming out with anything that sought to establish

:43:55.:44:01.

once and for all and absolutely -- in an absolute way, lines that

:44:01.:44:06.

cannot be crossed. You end up with figures of public interest, try to

:44:06.:44:12.

define the public interest in law, or in in -- or in any way that is

:44:12.:44:15.

not contingent on a case-by-case analysis, that puts us in an odd

:44:15.:44:22.

place. The judges are all over the place. One judges very tough on

:44:22.:44:26.

these issues, and there were stringent privacy rulings that came

:44:26.:44:31.

in. But now the most recent rulings show the judges taking a rather

:44:31.:44:37.

more liberal, permissive approach. At the basic way of thinking about

:44:37.:44:42.

it is shifting. It is being worked out case-by-case. In effect, people

:44:42.:44:47.

who deserve this and are entitled to it... I think everyone is

:44:47.:44:52.

entitled to it, even famous actors and people who are filmstar as.

:44:52.:44:57.

There was research on zoo animals, and if they're given no privacy, if

:44:58.:45:01.

the public can see everything they do, including reproductive

:45:01.:45:05.

practices and so on, they go barmy. That is why animals in zoos often

:45:05.:45:11.

go barmy. By most animals did not choose to put themselves in the zoo.

:45:11.:45:17.

-- but most animals. There is a flaw in de Zeeuw model? If somebody

:45:17.:45:21.

chooses to be an actor, that means they have to sweep their cars for

:45:21.:45:26.

bugs? I take your point. Can I say one more point about the new

:45:26.:45:29.

Secretary of State. One of her predecessors wrote something

:45:29.:45:33.

intelligent about this. The thing is, when you going to these jobs

:45:33.:45:36.

you need to establish the framework. You need an issue, something that

:45:36.:45:41.

is going to be your concern. Jeremy Hunt did it with local TV and not

:45:41.:45:44.

withstanding the endless rumpus over Murdoch and all the rest of it,

:45:44.:45:49.

he is still seen as the person who did local TV. We have no idea what

:45:49.:45:53.

Maria Miller is going to establish as her centrepiece. And I am

:45:53.:45:56.

tempted to think that in spite of all the controversial issues coming

:45:56.:46:02.

up, internet pornography, you name it, the Olympic legacy might be the

:46:02.:46:07.

one that they have to worry about most. Imagine this, having had huge

:46:07.:46:10.

success of the Olympics, if in 18 months' time, that legacy is seen

:46:10.:46:15.

to have been squandered in terms of school sports and childhood obesity,

:46:15.:46:20.

participation, volunteering. If that is seen to have been

:46:20.:46:24.

squandered, that will do a lot of damage. Maybe she will make that

:46:24.:46:34.
:46:34.:46:36.

the thing she concentrates on. Do Yes. I always thought we were

:46:37.:46:42.

totally unbalanced. There are times when democracy gets unbalanced.

:46:42.:46:50.

Nobody dare take on a raid just things in the press and that was

:46:50.:46:58.

offensive. -- offensive things. There will be great pressure on the

:46:58.:47:01.

Prime Minister to immediately accept the recommendations of

:47:01.:47:09.

Leveson. I hope he will not. What he's saying is this is political

:47:09.:47:13.

dynamite. Labour are free and clear. They cannot do anything about it

:47:13.:47:18.

until the next election because they are not in office. They are

:47:18.:47:25.

striking are hard line in terms of statutory underpinning. Does David

:47:25.:47:29.

Miliband want to spend the 18 months in the run-up to the next

:47:30.:47:38.

election as the party trying to muzzle the press? Now, last week it

:47:38.:47:44.

was the Greens. We have had the TUC and now it is the time of Plaid

:47:45.:47:49.

Cymru. Members will be gathering in Brecon tomorrow for that and you

:47:49.:47:52.

will get together. Leanne Wood will be making her maiden conference

:47:52.:47:58.

speech as leader, having been elected in March. She joins us from

:47:58.:48:04.

Cardiff. What you hope to achieve that your leadership? I have said,

:48:04.:48:09.

it since I have been the leader of Plaid Cymru, that a once the

:48:09.:48:15.

economy to be my party central priority. -- that I want. We have

:48:15.:48:22.

to do everything we can to create jobs. People are feeling the

:48:23.:48:27.

squeeze. Cuts are being felt, particularly badly, in Wales. Many

:48:27.:48:32.

people are struggling to put food on the table and pay heating bills.

:48:32.:48:37.

Jobs have to be the priority. That has to be the central focus of my

:48:37.:48:42.

conference speech, when I deliver it tomorrow. On the economy, will

:48:42.:48:47.

you continue, under your leadership, to position Plaid Cymru to their

:48:47.:48:54.

left of the Labour Party on economic matters? -- to the left.

:48:54.:48:59.

In Wales, the centre of political gravity is to the left. The main

:48:59.:49:03.

focus for Plaid Cymru is to ensure that we can put together a

:49:03.:49:07.

programme of government that will speak to everyone in Wales. As they

:49:07.:49:13.

have already said, the cuts that Tara affecting us worse here, the

:49:13.:49:20.

public sector is bigger. -- that are affecting us. The economy has

:49:21.:49:27.

to be the top priorities. understanding is that the position

:49:27.:49:31.

of Plaid Cymru on independence is not as clear cut. The demand is not

:49:31.:49:36.

as immediate as the Scottish National position. The constitution

:49:36.:49:39.

is very much in the news at the moment because of what is happening

:49:39.:49:44.

in Scotland. Wales is a very different countries. We have made

:49:44.:49:48.

no secret about the fact that independence is something we strive

:49:48.:49:54.

for in the long term. At the moment, the economy is the issue that most

:49:54.:49:59.

people are deeply concerned about. Many young people are at the moment

:49:59.:50:05.

have no chance of a job weight- training place. Very many young

:50:06.:50:11.

people have very little hope for the future. -- or a training place.

:50:11.:50:15.

The need to provide hope for a generation of young people who

:50:15.:50:20.

deserve to have a future to look forward to. They will cease to have

:50:20.:50:24.

a huge, vibrant economy. It was built on the old dirty industries

:50:24.:50:29.

but it was a huge economic powerhouse. As the old industries

:50:29.:50:34.

have declined, Wales has become more and more independent on the

:50:34.:50:38.

public sector. It is a bigger public sector, as it is in the

:50:38.:50:42.

North of England and Scotland as well. I knew too dependent on the

:50:42.:50:51.

public sector? We need to do more to grow the private sector. -- are

:50:51.:50:56.

you too dependent? The business sector needs to become larger. I

:50:56.:51:00.

will be outlining a number of measures to improve the Welsh

:51:00.:51:05.

economy. One thing you could hear a lot of is a by a local campaign. We

:51:05.:51:09.

will try to encourage people to spend more money in local shops and

:51:09.:51:16.

businesses than in supermarkets, as a waiter tried to lock money in and

:51:16.:51:24.

encourage economic stimulation -- ate way to try to lock money in and

:51:24.:51:28.

encourage economic stimulation. There are a lot fewer companies

:51:28.:51:32.

setting up in wares at the moment. Our share of inward investment has

:51:32.:51:39.

gone Dang quite considerably. -- in Wales. Our economic Commission has

:51:39.:51:45.

come up with a report showing the Welsh economy has been in decline

:51:45.:51:50.

for more than 20 years. Rather than think about what various strategies

:51:50.:51:55.

we have been to do since the end of the Kohl era, we need some new

:51:55.:51:59.

thinking, to try to think of different ways of stimulating the

:51:59.:52:03.

economy. The central focus has to be job creation. We need a new deal

:52:03.:52:10.

for Wales. That is so we can build up resilience in the economy.

:52:10.:52:15.

the information age, often the brains of the people matter most of

:52:15.:52:20.

all. The quality of the education system matters most of all. We see

:52:20.:52:25.

that in Hong Kong and Singapore, or Finland and Sweden. There has been

:52:25.:52:30.

a lot of criticism recently of the Welsh school system. Some reports

:52:30.:52:33.

have been saying that exam results are not anywhere near as good as

:52:33.:52:39.

they should be. There is no doubt that Wales can do better in terms

:52:39.:52:44.

of education. We understand the importance of education. My family

:52:44.:52:51.

background is in mining. The miners give us libraries. The really to

:52:51.:52:55.

understand the importance of education and we need to up our

:52:55.:52:59.

game on up front. It is unacceptable that the numbers of

:52:59.:53:04.

young people of who leave school who cannot read and write. Literacy

:53:04.:53:10.

will be something we will advocate as part of our programme. Coming

:53:10.:53:15.

back to independence, we do except if the Scottish nationalists did

:53:15.:53:20.

get a referendum in 2014, and they call it upon the Scots to vote

:53:20.:53:27.

against independence - if they do - we just accept that would make the

:53:27.:53:33.

issue of Welsh independents dead for a generation or more? -- would

:53:33.:53:40.

you accept? Noah macro. Whatever the outcome of the Scottish

:53:40.:53:50.
:53:50.:53:50.

referendum, the relationship will have to change. -- no. That needs

:53:51.:53:56.

to be done regardless of the outcome of the Scottish referendum.

:53:56.:54:01.

Surely the Busch regard themselves as more than equal. We regard

:54:01.:54:07.

ourselves as people at the moment. We're not getting an equal deal. In

:54:07.:54:12.

the future, we should have a more equal place. It is good to talk to

:54:12.:54:17.

you. Thank you for joining as. I hope the conference is interesting.

:54:17.:54:25.

Thank you very much. Now, Her Majesty's Royal ears must be

:54:25.:54:28.

burning at the moment, as yet more buildings are named after her. The

:54:28.:54:31.

Olympic Park will become the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park. And the

:54:31.:54:34.

clock tower at Westminster - that houses the famous Big Ben bell -

:54:34.:54:37.

will today be named the Elizabeth Tower, after MPs voted to change

:54:37.:54:47.

the name to mark the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. I've always wanted

:54:47.:54:52.

to send our reporters to the tower. Here's Adam with a view from the

:54:52.:55:02.
:55:02.:55:07.

top. The world knows it as Big Ben. For 153 years, the official title

:55:07.:55:12.

was the clock tower. Yesterday it was renamed the Elizabeth Tower,

:55:12.:55:19.

after the Queen. I'm getting a VIP tour. First, health and safety.

:55:19.:55:25.

Strictly speaking, the Tessa -- the decibel level when the bell strikes

:55:25.:55:30.

is below the danger of health and safety level. We do give these

:55:30.:55:37.

little ear plugs, or ear defenders cut out to people. Let's be brave

:55:37.:55:41.

and leave them behind. I have the big industrial ones because I am up

:55:41.:55:46.

here three times a day. Then it is onwards and upwards and upwards

:55:47.:55:55.

some more. This is three had and 16 ft tall. We're nearly half way. --

:55:56.:56:00.

316 ft tall. You have to turn around. You can see the number of

:56:00.:56:09.

stairs you climb. 182. How many more to go? Crikey, just over 200

:56:09.:56:16.

Foster of beneath every great clock is a great big pendulum. -- just

:56:16.:56:21.

over 200. That pendulum is about four metres long. At the end of it,

:56:21.:56:26.

at the bottom of it, is a 400 lb great. That is what makes the

:56:26.:56:34.

pendulum swim -- swing - that weight. A bit more climbing and

:56:34.:56:41.

with bumps into a famous face. is the south-facing Clock Face

:56:41.:56:47.

which looks over Parliament. See the bracket above my head. That is

:56:47.:56:51.

the supporting mechanism for the minute hand. If you look to the

:56:51.:56:58.

left, you can see these lightbulbs. They liked the dials at night time.

:56:58.:57:03.

Finally, you cannot top this. Up close with the country's favourite

:57:03.:57:13.
:57:13.:57:13.

L - Big Ben. It is so loud it broke our microphone. -- favourite Bell.

:57:13.:57:18.

Will the change of name make any difference? I do not think so. It

:57:18.:57:22.

will be renamed the Elizabeth Talbot we will still call it Big

:57:22.:57:29.

Ben. That is not Big Ben now. -- Elizabeth Tower. I am sure we will

:57:29.:57:36.

continue to call it Big Ben. Still, if she does ever come up here, she

:57:36.:57:40.

will get a lovely view of a power house. And the man behind the

:57:40.:57:47.

rebrand, Conservative MP Tobias Ellwood, joins us now. It can only

:57:47.:57:51.

be a matter of days before you knighthood is in the post will

:57:51.:57:57.

start I am delighted to see the name has been changed. -- in the

:57:57.:58:03.

post. The Victoria Tower is at the West End. It was originally called

:58:03.:58:08.

the King's Tower. It is a wonderful tribute to an amazing life. It is a

:58:08.:58:16.

reminder of what it is to be British. Isn't this a fact that we

:58:16.:58:22.

are all going to call it Big Ben custom up I hope that does not

:58:22.:58:30.

change. Sir Benjamin Hall put the belt up. It will be Elizabeth Tower.

:58:30.:58:36.

-- the bell. Do you want us to refer to it as the Elizabeth Tower?

:58:36.:58:44.

You can refer to both. The bell is Big Ben. Can I mention a problem?

:58:45.:58:52.

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