17/09/2012 Daily Politics


17/09/2012

Andrew Neil with the current political news, interviews and debate, including the latest on the new GCSE exams and what it will mean for teachers and pupils.


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Transcript


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Afternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Goodbye GCSEs,

:00:46.:00:51.

hello "Gove Levels". Education Secretary Michael Gove announces

:00:51.:00:55.

plans to shake up secondary schools exams in England to make them more

:00:55.:01:00.

rigorous. We'll discuss the plan with former Tory Education

:01:00.:01:04.

Secretary, Ken Baker. Iain Duncan Smith faces questions about his

:01:04.:01:06.

plan for universal credits with reports that the country's most

:01:06.:01:10.

senior civil servant is out to block the reform. We'll discuss the

:01:10.:01:15.

Welfare Secretary's big project. Scores are written every year, but

:01:15.:01:19.

can political books really change anything? Can writing one really

:01:19.:01:26.

help your political career? And could Britain see a full state

:01:26.:01:36.

funeral for King Richard III? We'll hear from one MP who wants a

:01:36.:01:39.

military procession, lying in state - the whole works - if this

:01:39.:01:49.
:01:49.:01:51.

skeleton turns out to be the 15th century king. All that in the next

:01:51.:01:54.

hour and with us for the duration Patrick Diamond from the left of

:01:54.:01:57.

centre think-tank Policy Network, he was once adviser to Tony Blair

:01:57.:02:00.

and Gordon Brown. Don't blame us! And by Ruth Porter from the Free

:02:00.:02:02.

Market Institute of Economic Affairs. Welcome to the Daily

:02:02.:02:10.

Politics. Let's kick off though with an interesting line from the

:02:10.:02:14.

latest British Social Attitudes report which is published today.

:02:14.:02:17.

The survey reveals the proportion of people wanting increased public

:02:17.:02:21.

spending - even if it means higher taxes - has gone up for the first

:02:21.:02:27.

time in a decade. But only by a little. It has gone up to 36% while

:02:27.:02:33.

55% want spending levels to stay where they are.

:02:33.:02:40.

Isn't that the dip lem ma for a left of centre party at the moment?

:02:40.:02:45.

To act collectively in various ways and even at this will time when

:02:45.:02:49.

public spending has been cut, there is only 36% want more public

:02:49.:02:55.

spending? That's right. The numbers favouring more public spending have

:02:55.:02:58.

increased in recent years. That's a sign that people are worried that

:02:58.:03:03.

the cuts which the current Government are carrying out are

:03:03.:03:07.

biting hard. It is a dilemma for every left of centre Government.

:03:07.:03:11.

What's the right balance to strike between taxation and public

:03:11.:03:18.

spending and do people feel they are getting value for money out of

:03:18.:03:25.

things like the NHS and schools? have been talking about a small

:03:25.:03:28.

increase, there is a big increase in the number of people who think

:03:28.:03:32.

the NHS is in decline. That's surely more worrying? Well, it is

:03:33.:03:37.

interesting in that when you look at outcomes in health, so far

:03:37.:03:42.

people have felt that the NHS is delivering and it is not. The

:03:42.:03:45.

Government is trying to reform the Health Service whilst also trying

:03:45.:03:50.

to say that the Health Service is delivering. I think at some point

:03:50.:03:55.

it needs to change that narrative if it is going to get public

:03:55.:03:58.

opinion on its side. Why do you think people are saying

:03:58.:04:01.

it is not as good as it was last year? Is that because they have

:04:01.:04:04.

tried to reform it? Because the media and the Labour Party have

:04:04.:04:08.

been saying these reforms are terrible? Or do you think people

:04:08.:04:11.

are experiencing a worse service on the ground? I think people are

:04:11.:04:14.

bound to be experiencing a worse service on the ground and the

:04:14.:04:19.

Government needs to play catch-up and start pointing to the fact that

:04:19.:04:22.

the NHS has not been delivering and make the case.

:04:22.:04:26.

There is a disjuncture between how people feel about their local

:04:26.:04:29.

hospital or GP and how they feel about the National Health Service

:04:29.:04:37.

as a national entity. And there is no doubt that the impact of the

:04:37.:04:43.

Lancy Reforms has sapped many people's confidence in the NHS.

:04:43.:04:48.

John Major said yesterday that the economy has, "Passed the the

:04:48.:04:53.

darkest moment." I think he might have talked about green shoots

:04:53.:04:57.

which no minister will do. We are used to reporting bad things about

:04:57.:05:01.

the economy that sometimes we miss a turning point and bad is always a

:05:01.:05:06.

better story thang good. -- than good. Are there signs that the

:05:06.:05:08.

worst might be over? It is difficult to tell. There is a

:05:08.:05:11.

problem with the kind of language that John Major was using in the

:05:11.:05:14.

sense that there is a lot of evidence that many people out there

:05:14.:05:18.

in the real world of experiencing problems with the economy, not

:05:18.:05:20.

least the huge numbers of young people who are unemployed and

:05:20.:05:24.

haven't been able to find jobs or college places when leaving school.

:05:24.:05:28.

There are real issues about performance of our economy at the

:05:28.:05:30.

same time, we have to recognise that the return of economic

:05:30.:05:34.

confidence is very, very important to us getting out of this economic

:05:34.:05:39.

mess that we're in. So we're -- restoring confidence is important.

:05:39.:05:45.

Ruth, it is still bad, but have we passed the worse? It is hard to say.

:05:45.:05:47.

Things with the eurozone could get worse.

:05:47.:05:51.

But that got better? It keeps getting pushed into the long grass.

:05:52.:05:56.

We don't know. Some of it depends on that. But yeah.

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Ruth is right, international circumstances matter a huge amount

:05:59.:06:03.

to the UK. We are an economy that relies on exports, the health of

:06:03.:06:06.

the eurozone will have a crucial impact on our our ability to

:06:06.:06:09.

recover. That might be another reason for

:06:09.:06:15.

being positive. We were covering stories about Kate's pictures, some

:06:15.:06:18.

events took place in Europe. It is time for our quiz. The question

:06:18.:06:23.

today is which of these is the odd one out? George Osborne, Alex

:06:23.:06:32.

Salmond, Theresa May, or Bojo, also known as Boris Johnson!

:06:32.:06:37.

I have worked it out myself! Have you worked it out? Just about.

:06:37.:06:40.

Have you? No idea. LAUGHTER

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We'll see. We are probably wrong. They are calling them Gove Levels a

:06:46.:06:53.

new system of exams intending to sweep away GCSEs. The reforms don't

:06:53.:06:57.

affect Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. The Education Secretary

:06:57.:07:00.

alooning with the -- along with the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg

:07:00.:07:03.

who was hostile to the plan will announce the details later today.

:07:03.:07:08.

So what's it all about? Well, the current system of modules and

:07:08.:07:13.

assessment, will be replaced by one exam per subject at the end of a

:07:13.:07:18.

two year course like the old O- levels. Each exam would be three

:07:18.:07:23.

hours long. They can be as short as 90 minutes. There will be no

:07:23.:07:28.

opportunity to bump upgrades by resitting parts of the test. If

:07:28.:07:31.

students are unhappy with the grade, they would have to resit the exam.

:07:31.:07:36.

The new exams would include more maths and more full length essays

:07:37.:07:45.

and a return to English to foreign language translation tests. 22% get

:07:45.:07:51.

an A or an A* grade at present, with a new course as few as a%

:07:51.:07:55.

would be expected to get a grade one. The Government plans to launch

:07:55.:08:01.

the new system in the autumn of 2015 which would mean we would see

:08:01.:08:04.

the the first examinations in the summer of 2017. So that's where we

:08:04.:08:10.

are. Let's go to our Adam to get a bit on the politics of this. April

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dam, are you there for -- Adam, are you there for us? Afternoon, Andrew.

:08:16.:08:20.

Tell me this Adam, it is good to see new the glorious sunshine there.

:08:20.:08:25.

Mr Clegg seemed to be against this when it was originally announced,

:08:25.:08:31.

now he is standing by Mr Clegg to announce it. What happened? Well,

:08:31.:08:39.

the Government decided to junk this idea of a return to a two-tier exam

:08:39.:08:44.

system like the old O-levels. Now you might remember right back at

:08:44.:08:48.

the start of the summer, leaked documents from the Department for

:08:48.:08:51.

Education suggested that's what Michael Gove wanted to do. Nick

:08:52.:08:56.

Clegg read about that in the Daily Mail and was furious and took a red

:08:56.:09:01.

pen to that idea and Number Ten were surprised by it too. That

:09:01.:09:07.

queued through or four months of wrangling and that's led us to this

:09:07.:09:11.

point today. Having said that, there is not going to be a two-tier

:09:12.:09:15.

system, there has been hints there will be some differentation by

:09:15.:09:18.

ability in the new exams. We don't know what form that will take. We

:09:18.:09:21.

will have to wait until Michael Gove, the Education Secretary

:09:21.:09:26.

stands up in there at 3.30pm to outline his plans.

:09:26.:09:32.

Does This have the hallmarks of a prom pro mice that doesn't --

:09:32.:09:35.

compromise that doesn't please either side. The Lib Dems wouldn't

:09:36.:09:41.

have gone back to an O-level system and if Mr Gove got his way he would

:09:41.:09:46.

be introducing two new exams? the Lib Dems are happy this lunch

:09:46.:09:49.

time and they are pointing to two things as they see as victories,

:09:49.:09:56.

one, the stuff we were talking about. They are going to use this

:09:56.:09:59.

catchphrase, they will have an exam system where no child is left

:09:59.:10:03.

behind. The other thing they are happy about is the timetable for

:10:03.:10:06.

this because bear in mind pupils will not start studying for the

:10:06.:10:12.

exams until 2015 which means they won't be sitting them until 2017.

:10:12.:10:17.

In political terms that's years away in case there are problems

:10:17.:10:20.

with the introduction of this new system. Coalition Coalition sources

:10:20.:10:27.

think this is an example. Example of the way the the parties are

:10:27.:10:37.
:10:37.:10:41.

working together. Two new words Prolition and colicios!

:10:41.:10:47.

We are joined by Kennet Baker who still keeps a deep interest in

:10:48.:10:51.

matters education particularly in schools. Were you the architect of

:10:51.:10:56.

the GCSEs? Keith Joseph was. He started them. I implemented them. I

:10:56.:11:01.

think they have they have watered down over the year. They became

:11:01.:11:06.

less rigorous, I took a thing called the school certificate. It

:11:06.:11:10.

was really tough. But it was a certificate that ended education at

:11:10.:11:17.

16 16 because then you went to work. The first question - why have an

:11:17.:11:23.

exam at 16 when you are extending the school leaving age to 18?

:11:23.:11:29.

you keep people in school until 18 who were only doing O-levels? If

:11:29.:11:35.

you do well at 16, you go on to do A-levels? The real age of transfer

:11:35.:11:40.

is 14. Test them at 14 and provide the sort of schools that are nooded

:11:40.:11:46.

for young -- needed for youngsters. This is an academic driven reform

:11:46.:11:52.

and I welcome it. I guess is... is a radical idea if you are going

:11:52.:11:54.

to learn a foreign language you should have to translate something

:11:54.:11:58.

from English into that foreign language? Well, many youngsters in

:11:58.:12:02.

our schools will not do that. You can forget that.

:12:02.:12:06.

This is very much a grammar school approach to life. You have got to

:12:06.:12:10.

remember there are millions of youngsters in our schools who at 14

:12:10.:12:15.

want a practical vocational, hands on learning. Learning by doing as

:12:15.:12:20.

well as studying. That's why I'm setting up the university technical

:12:20.:12:23.

colleges and we are finding by mixing the engineering and maths

:12:23.:12:29.

together, their maths shoots up. I know you are doing that work in

:12:29.:12:35.

setting up schools which are more vocational than academic. Are you

:12:35.:12:41.

sad to see the end of GCSEs are have they become so devalued that

:12:41.:12:45.

it is time for something new? have to revise the exam system.

:12:45.:12:49.

They had become devalued, but they are welcome by lots of youngsters.

:12:49.:12:53.

They are They are proud of achievement, but if you have, you

:12:54.:12:58.

can't just test at 16 by a three hour exam in every subject. If you

:12:58.:13:02.

are you are doing a practical subject, you have done project work

:13:02.:13:06.

and created working together. You have modules. You have got to have

:13:06.:13:11.

that build in. I don't want vocational qualifications put in

:13:11.:13:17.

the back yard. They should be there in the front, on the front stage.

:13:17.:13:22.

I am unclear. Are you in favour of Mr Gove's reforms or not? I am in

:13:22.:13:26.

favour of the greater rigour in the basic subjects in English, maths

:13:26.:13:29.

and science. Could that not have been done with

:13:29.:13:34.

the existing GCSEs? You have to change the syllabus. It takes three

:13:34.:13:42.

or four years to do that. In trigonometry, how far do you go?

:13:42.:13:47.

How far do you go? That requires a lot of study and examination and

:13:47.:13:50.

the syllabuses have to be approved and the teachers have to learn to

:13:50.:13:55.

teach them. When you want to improve an exam system it is not

:13:55.:13:59.

like turning up the gas on a cooker to get it hotter. It takes longer

:13:59.:14:04.

than that to do. And in this change do you fear that

:14:04.:14:10.

the need for vocational education with rigour? Is not high up enough

:14:10.:14:14.

in the agenda? Yes, I don't think it is high enough. I am fighting

:14:14.:14:19.

for it to be high indeed. That's why I am starting these colleges

:14:19.:14:23.

with Michael Gove's support. I want to make them - look all of Europe

:14:23.:14:28.

is change to go 14 and America is changing to 14. You have four types

:14:28.:14:32.

of colleges, liberal arts college, a technical engineering college, a

:14:32.:14:36.

vocational college and a performing arts college. That's what Austria

:14:36.:14:45.

does and on Ontario. Is it your under standings that

:14:45.:14:50.

when the new O-levels came in you would be able to do vocational O-

:14:50.:14:55.

levels of rigour or will the O- levels be of an academic nature?

:14:55.:15:00.

There will Be vocational O-levels. I introduced the National

:15:00.:15:05.

Curriculum in 1998. The National Curriculum should stop at 14 and

:15:05.:15:10.

you should have a variety of different schools.

:15:10.:15:14.

This idea that there will be one exam system for each subject,

:15:14.:15:18.

rather than competing exam systems, providing a range of subjects?

:15:19.:15:23.

That's good. The big change that Michael is going to do is take out

:15:23.:15:27.

the exam boards competing with each other. That's been the do you think

:15:27.:15:30.

grading. That's encouraging the race to the

:15:30.:15:34.

bottom? That's what happened. It didn't happen in our time,

:15:34.:15:40.

Andrew. When children took O-levels they were easy.

:15:40.:15:50.
:15:50.:15:51.

I I didn't only take O-levels! Isn't the real criticism of Labour

:15:51.:15:55.

is they spent a lot of money on education and made it a priority of

:15:55.:15:59.

Government, Mr Blair's famous, education, education, education,

:15:59.:16:04.

but they seem content to dine out on improving results, even as the

:16:04.:16:08.

evidence showed that the exams were being devalued. They were becoming

:16:08.:16:12.

easier to sit? I'm not sure about that. You don't think they were.

:16:12.:16:15.

a day when we are talking about reforming the qualification for

:16:15.:16:18.

GCSEs, I think we should remember there are thousands of young people

:16:18.:16:22.

who have got very good GCSEs grades this year nain previous years, they

:16:22.:16:27.

deserve them and have worked hard for them. -- this year and previous

:16:27.:16:31.

years. There is thast' not the issue. There is an issue about the

:16:31.:16:35.

integrity of the system. I think the point about the competition

:16:35.:16:39.

between exams boards needs to be addressed and the regulation of the

:16:39.:16:42.

exam system which again I think the Government will be addressing,

:16:42.:16:45.

which is welcome. The essential question, which Lord Baker

:16:45.:16:49.

addressside the question about what is the purpose of GCSE and what is

:16:49.:16:54.

the purpose of testing people at 16. The crucial question we have to

:16:54.:16:57.

address as this university technical colleges address, is what

:16:57.:17:00.

is the route for people who don't want to go on to university but who

:17:00.:17:04.

nevertheless deserve a hi-quality prestigious alternative pathway. We

:17:04.:17:08.

don't have that at the moment. Labour may have to implement this

:17:08.:17:12.

reform and if it gets into power at the next Government, should it or

:17:12.:17:15.

should it not? I think there are aspects of the package being

:17:15.:17:20.

proposed that Labour needs to look at. We don't know what Michael gef

:17:20.:17:23.

is precisely going to introduce but there are aspects that ought to be

:17:23.:17:27.

looked at by Labour. -- Michael Gove. The original Michael Gove

:17:27.:17:30.

criticism is you can't have one exam for everybody, one exam for

:17:30.:17:35.

people who like me read the auto cue and other people who are going

:17:35.:17:40.

to be nuclear physicists and brain surgeons but we end up with one.

:17:40.:17:44.

Lord baker is right. We need a system which is more diverse than

:17:44.:17:48.

what we have. Extra what is extraordinary is the Government has

:17:48.:17:51.

decided and expended so much political capital in this idea of

:17:51.:17:57.

just tackling the credibility of our GCSE system. When you look at

:17:57.:18:01.

the British education system there are far more fundamental issues

:18:01.:18:06.

which need tackling long before people get through to 16. Looking

:18:06.:18:10.

at basic skills in things like maths and reading and if you look

:18:10.:18:16.

at the latest OECD studies we are failing miserably on all of those.

:18:16.:18:26.
:18:26.:18:28.

One nice thing is the head boy got a place at Russell university. He

:18:28.:18:33.

turned it down to do an apprenticeship with Rolls Royce,

:18:33.:18:36.

because he will get work and probably do a degree afterwards. I

:18:36.:18:40.

want different pathways for youngsters responding to their

:18:40.:18:43.

needs. Always good to talk to you on these matters. You may not have

:18:43.:18:47.

heard for them, su certainly didn't vote for them but the men and women

:18:47.:18:50.

who work for what we call think- tanks will almost certainly have

:18:50.:18:55.

had an effect on your life. Why? Because these so-called policy

:18:55.:18:59.

wonks, who dream up the bright ideas which sometimes form the

:18:59.:19:02.

policies of our political parties, so they have an influence. Does

:19:02.:19:06.

that make them a vital part of our democracy or a bnch of theorists

:19:07.:19:12.

who really should get out into the real world -- bunch of theorists.

:19:12.:19:16.

As Ken Baker has been saying. Most twopbt Oxbridge. David went to find

:19:16.:19:26.
:19:26.:19:31.

This is the natural habitat of the think-tank. It might not look very

:19:31.:19:35.

exciting but people like these on both the left and right of politics

:19:35.:19:37.

come up with the ideas which ministers turn into policies which

:19:37.:19:43.

they use to govern Britain. It's a bigger deal than it looks.

:19:43.:19:47.

Nick paerdz is one of the kings of the think-tank jungle and a living

:19:47.:19:55.

example of how xected to Government they can be - nick Pearce. And an

:19:55.:19:58.

example of how connected to Government they should be. You want

:19:58.:20:03.

to give ammunition to look into the future. Things that are innovative.

:20:03.:20:07.

Helping you to think where will we be in two, three, four years' time

:20:07.:20:11.

and they should be doing things that politicians with their busy

:20:11.:20:14.

schedules, can't themselves easily do. So it is important for think

:20:14.:20:19.

tanks to be staying ahead of the curve, and thinking about things in

:20:19.:20:22.

creative innovative ways, politics is a hard place to do that in.

:20:22.:20:26.

there are those who believe that governments of whatever colour

:20:26.:20:31.

could do with a bit less blue-sky thinking and be a bit more real

:20:31.:20:36.

world. Do I not rely on them to give me ideas and I don't think my

:20:36.:20:40.

colleagues do. If they need to know something, they go out and find it.

:20:40.:20:45.

We need to restore our trust with the public. The way of doing that

:20:45.:20:49.

is to listen to what they have to say and put forward policies they

:20:49.:20:52.

want. Then there is the question of independence. Think-tanks need

:20:52.:20:56.

money and it has been suggested one of the best ways to lobby

:20:56.:21:02.

Government is to sponsor a think- tank event and get them to invite a

:21:02.:21:05.

sympathetic minister along. There isn't as much money going into

:21:05.:21:09.

think-tanks so they are having to fund-raise. It is important, if you

:21:09.:21:12.

do fund-raise to be absolutely clear where you are getting your

:21:12.:21:15.

money, from what research projects are being funded and you are

:21:15.:21:19.

transparent and above-board about it. Here is an idea. How about the

:21:19.:21:23.

people we pay to run the country doing a bit of their own thinking

:21:23.:21:27.

for a change. If I went out on to the streets of Redditch tomorrow

:21:27.:21:32.

and asked people what they, were I think I'd get a view blank stares.

:21:32.:21:37.

I think the people of Redditch expect me and the Government to put

:21:37.:21:41.

forward policies. That's who they letted to do that sort of thing.

:21:41.:21:43.

This might look detached from the real world but these people do at

:21:44.:21:48.

least give politicians something to work, with and you could be

:21:48.:21:53.

forgiven for thinking they could do with all the help they can get. My

:21:53.:21:58.

two guests here, Patrick Diamond and Ruth Porter, they are hi-tank

:21:58.:22:03.

policy wonks themselves, a very weird Westminster breed. Is it

:22:03.:22:10.

right you should have so much influence on the policy process?

:22:10.:22:15.

Being -- it's been the way for a long time. I think it is wonderful.

:22:15.:22:19.

The fundamental principle behind a think-tank is ideas matter. If you

:22:19.:22:24.

go back that lovely story of Margaret Thatcher throwing down on

:22:24.:22:27.

the table a copy of skaf constitution of Liberty and saying

:22:27.:22:31.

this is what we believe in. You have an interesting example at the

:22:31.:22:33.

moment with Ed Miliband talking about the idea of pre-distribution

:22:34.:22:37.

and that's clearly going to be something which, whatever name it

:22:37.:22:41.

ends up with, which is going to influence Labour's thinking over

:22:41.:22:45.

the months and possibly years to come and the origins and the seeds

:22:45.:22:52.

for that were in a lecture that was delivered at Demos two years ago by

:22:52.:22:57.

one of the world's leading political thinkers. I think it is

:22:57.:23:00.

important. Ideas do have consequences for all of us in the

:23:00.:23:04.

nitty gritty of our lives. We need it take them seriously. But the

:23:04.:23:10.

problem is who is coming up with the ideas, the think-tanks, and

:23:10.:23:16.

there are lots within a stone's through of here. They straight out

:23:16.:23:20.

of university, wet behind the ears, never had a proper job, never had

:23:20.:23:24.

to meet a pay bill or done a union negotiation and yet they are coming

:23:24.:23:29.

up with the way to run the country. Well that's a approximatelyite

:23:29.:23:35.

description. An extraordinary bit of charm. There are lots of people

:23:35.:23:38.

working this n think-tanks that come from different backgrounds.

:23:38.:23:41.

There are people increasingly in think-tanks that come from a jk

:23:41.:23:44.

ground of having worked in organisations whether they have

:23:44.:23:49.

delivered things on the ground, whether it is charities or

:23:49.:23:53.

political enterprise. There is an issue, I think about the proximity

:23:53.:23:57.

of think-tanks to the political parties. I think where you see

:23:57.:23:59.

think-tanks making a difference to the debate about the ideas in

:23:59.:24:03.

politics, it is where they are able to have some critical distance to

:24:04.:24:06.

what political parties and politicians are saying. When we

:24:06.:24:09.

have lived through an era in which they have been fundamental

:24:09.:24:14.

questions asked about our banks system and financial secondor and

:24:14.:24:17.

fundamental questions asked about how we can fund our public services,

:24:18.:24:21.

we need think-tanks that have independence from politics and have

:24:21.:24:24.

the courage to ask more difficult questions than those that are

:24:24.:24:27.

perhaps asked every day in political debate. In one way you

:24:27.:24:31.

are not independent, because to get your money, you go to big companies

:24:31.:24:35.

or vested interests, lobby groups and they finance your seminars in

:24:35.:24:39.

return for you, because you can attract ministers and shadow

:24:39.:24:46.

ministers. You give these vested interest of Government ministers.

:24:46.:24:52.

think there is a difference between think-tanks that do money for

:24:52.:24:56.

specific research reports. And just having seminars paid for by the

:24:56.:25:00.

energy industry or the green lobby. Point of independence which Nick

:25:00.:25:04.

Pearce made in that film, which is very interesting, I think is when

:25:04.:25:07.

MPs get into Parliament, they are so busy with the day-to-day of

:25:08.:25:11.

things that they can't take a step back from that and actually ask

:25:11.:25:15.

questions, genuinely bwhat policies are going to be, not in the

:25:15.:25:18.

interests of a particular industry, like a trade association, but what

:25:18.:25:22.

policies are going to be in the interests of the country as a whole.

:25:22.:25:26.

I think that's the unique space that think-tanks occupy.

:25:27.:25:31.

I'm still puzzled you can afford to work for a think-tank and live in

:25:31.:25:34.

London. Because they don't pay very much.

:25:34.:25:39.

Before you leave, Ruth and Patrick, we need to find out the answer to

:25:39.:25:45.

our quiz. The question was: which was the odd-one-out, George Osborne,

:25:45.:25:48.

Alex Salmond, Theresa May or Boris Johnson. Patrick, I think you were

:25:48.:25:53.

a little bit more sure. I'm going to take a punt at Boris Johnson.

:25:53.:25:58.

Because... Because he was the only one not to be booed at the medal

:25:58.:26:02.

ceremony at the Olympic or Paralympic Games. You are almost

:26:02.:26:07.

right. He was the only one not to be booed but Mr Salmond was booed,

:26:08.:26:12.

but not at the Olympics. Let's hear a bit of what happened

:26:12.:26:16.

at the weekend. It was before the weekend, I think. It was in George

:26:16.:26:20.

Square in the heart of Glasgow. word with the First Minister at the

:26:21.:26:25.

end here. A proud summer as well. BOOS.

:26:25.:26:30.

Come on, folks. I think we should say firstly from Glasgow and

:26:30.:26:33.

Scotland that Colin and his committee in London set the bar

:26:33.:26:38.

very high indeed. Did a wonderful job. That was at the Olympic

:26:38.:26:44.

ceremony for the Scottish Olympians and medal winners there. There were

:26:44.:26:50.

cheers there. It wasn't as quite as clear-cut as Mr Os Gordon Brown.

:26:50.:26:55.

But we can speak to Torcuil Crichton from Scotland's daily

:26:55.:26:58.

newspaper. Were you surprised he got booed

:26:58.:27:04.

even by only part of the audience? Well, you take George Square in

:27:04.:27:10.

Glasgow where they fly red flags and you take them celebrating the

:27:10.:27:14.

Olympics and you take a national leader who was disparaging about

:27:14.:27:19.

the Olympics for seven years, and you just add water. Or maybe oil.

:27:19.:27:22.

Perhaps. It must have been vicious bus you could tell from the delight

:27:22.:27:26.

of the reaction from Labour politicians that it had been effect.

:27:26.:27:32.

Do you think he was surprised by it, he is not used to being booed?

:27:32.:27:37.

He has been booed in the past. He was booed in Hampden stadium and I

:27:37.:27:42.

heard at the Military Tattoo. He is a popular politician, he is a

:27:43.:27:48.

Marmite politician, some like him, some don't, but he has personal

:27:48.:27:51.

popularity opinions that George Osborne would sell the Crown Estate

:27:51.:27:58.

for. Don't give him that idea. is satled to this unpopular policy,

:27:58.:28:02.

independence -- sadled. He is Alex Salmond first leader, associated

:28:02.:28:07.

with independence. His strategy now has to somehow decouple the

:28:07.:28:11.

unpopular policy and have a referendum or not and decouple that

:28:11.:28:15.

from the idea of a popular SNP Government and a popular

:28:15.:28:18.

nationalist leader because win, lose or draw the referendum, the

:28:18.:28:22.

SNP will want to carry on governing in Scotland so he has to try to

:28:22.:28:26.

keep these two, somehow, although it will not be easy, keep these

:28:26.:28:29.

ideas apart. Is there something significant by the fact that this

:28:29.:28:33.

happened in Glasgow, which is Scotland's biggest city and the

:28:33.:28:37.

surrounding area contains about half of Scotland's population and

:28:37.:28:42.

it is still, as I understand it, quite a tough nut for the

:28:42.:28:48.

nationalists to crack. It is not national -- natural nationalists

:28:48.:28:51.

territory and maybe because of Rangers and other things, parts of

:28:51.:29:00.

it are quite strongly Unionist. because of the working class

:29:00.:29:03.

protestant inheritance of unionism. Politically Labour, although this

:29:03.:29:07.

high tide of nationalism, we saw the Scottish Government elections

:29:07.:29:11.

meant that the SNP now have constituency seats in the Scottish

:29:11.:29:15.

Parliament in Glasgow. Nonetheless, when they tried to storm Glasgow in

:29:15.:29:19.

the local government elections, which would have been that next

:29:19.:29:22.

step towards a successful referendum campaign, Labour stopped

:29:22.:29:27.

them at the gate. It was a Stalingrad scenario where Labour

:29:27.:29:31.

had to pile everything into Glasgow to save the day, which they zand

:29:31.:29:38.

that may well have been the high tide of Alex Salmond's SNP may have

:29:38.:29:43.

been May 2010 when they won that amazing majority in the Scottish

:29:43.:29:47.

Parliament. Glasgow has been hard for the SNP.

:29:47.:29:51.

George Square is where they raise red skies. Thank you for joining us.

:29:51.:29:54.

A beautiful view of Westminster behind you there.

:29:54.:29:59.

Thank you for joining us. Patrick and Ruth thauve thank you also for

:29:59.:30:04.

being with us today. -- Patrick and Ruth. Thank you also.

:30:04.:30:09.

We have a busy week, today sees the Second Reading of the

:30:09.:30:17.

infrastructure Bill which gar which allows the Government to guarantee

:30:17.:30:21.

infrastructure works. And tomorrow Michael gef will

:30:21.:30:25.

announce the exam restructure. And on Wednesday, Parliament goes into

:30:25.:30:28.

recess, again, well it has been there for two weeks, there will be

:30:29.:30:32.

no Prime Minister's Questions. On Thursday, former Liberal Democrat

:30:32.:30:35.

secretary, Chris Huhne appears in court. That could be worth the

:30:35.:30:42.

price of admission, accused of perverting the course of justice,

:30:42.:30:47.

on a speeding offence, a charge he denies.

:30:47.:30:52.

And the UKIP conference starts in brum on Friday and on Saturday, the

:30:52.:30:54.

Liberal Democrats begin their autumn skin dig in the delights of

:30:54.:30:59.

Brighton. To give us more detail we have Westminster insiders, -

:30:59.:31:01.

actually they are outside Westminster at the moment - and

:31:01.:31:07.

they may not be allowed back in again. Helen lies of the New

:31:07.:31:13.

Statesman and Andrew Pierce of the Lots of talk about leadership

:31:13.:31:18.

threats or unhappiness for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg. Do we take

:31:18.:31:24.

any of it seriously? Yes, I think we do. The Tory MPs are very, very

:31:24.:31:28.

unhappy and unless John Major is right and the green shoots of

:31:28.:31:31.

recovery are underway I think Mr Cameron Cameron could be in trouble,

:31:32.:31:36.

but not yet. They will give him a year. The leader who is in most

:31:36.:31:40.

trouble is Nick Clegg. I think it is inconceivable he will lead the

:31:40.:31:46.

Liberal Democrats into the next general election. So keep - most

:31:46.:31:56.
:31:56.:31:59.

most people are putting their money on Vince Cable. Don't forget Tim

:31:59.:32:02.

Farran, and he is not a Cabinet Minister so he can speak up for the

:32:02.:32:05.

Liberal Democrat activist who are fed-up. What have they got out of

:32:05.:32:09.

the coalition? They didn't get AV or House of Lords reform. They

:32:10.:32:13.

might get may marriage, but that wasn't in their manifesto.

:32:13.:32:18.

Helen, do you think David Cameron is not under any immediate threat,

:32:18.:32:23.

it is the medium-term nonsense? Do you think Nick Clegg is under more

:32:23.:32:29.

threat? Well, I think Nick Clegg is a useful sponge for the Lib Dems.

:32:29.:32:34.

There is a testimony temptation that you can pin the unpopular

:32:34.:32:39.

things on him. But I think David Cameron will be watching Boris

:32:39.:32:41.

Johnson's conference speech with apprehension.

:32:41.:32:44.

We all will! LAUGHTER

:32:44.:32:48.

But more so than anyone else. We know he is a fantastic or ra tor.

:32:48.:32:52.

He has the freedom of not being in the Cabinet to say the things he

:32:52.:32:57.

wants to say and he can throw red meat to the Tory faithful.

:32:57.:33:04.

There is 14 Tory MPs ready to plunge the sword into Mr Cameron. I

:33:04.:33:07.

suggest to you Andrew there is always in the history of the Tory

:33:07.:33:12.

Party 14 MPs ready to plunge the sword into their leader? That's

:33:12.:33:15.

right. You need 46 and that's a long way off, but it is interesting

:33:15.:33:24.

that one has been publicly outed, Patrick Mercer. He was sacked by Mr

:33:24.:33:29.

Cameron. Some of the 14 will be people who have been overlooked for

:33:29.:33:34.

a job and there will be an awkward squad. But there is no doubt behind

:33:34.:33:38.

the scenes in the House of Commons people are very, very uneasy. They

:33:38.:33:41.

see how far Labour are ahead in the opinion polls and remember this -

:33:41.:33:45.

they have not really forgiven David Cameron for not winning the general

:33:45.:33:50.

election against Gordon Brown who really should have been a walk over.

:33:50.:33:56.

Helen, what do you make of the love affair now between Mr Clegg and Mr

:33:56.:34:03.

Gove? They are not out together, indeed we had one description that

:34:03.:34:13.

now the reform of the GCSEs, that it is a new word colicious? Well,

:34:13.:34:18.

it it is in the Nick Clegg's interest and the dumping of the

:34:18.:34:23.

two-tier system. I can't imagine the two of them will be having

:34:23.:34:27.

country suppers any time soon! They are unlikely bedfellows. I

:34:27.:34:34.

think David Cameron is - sorry escape Michael Gove is comfortable

:34:34.:34:38.

working alongside David Laws, it is one of the orange book Lib Dems. A

:34:38.:34:42.

Lib Dem that most Tories think is in the wrong party.

:34:43.:34:46.

OK, Helen, Andrew, we will leave it there. Good luck trying to get back

:34:47.:34:50.

into Westminster. I have spoken to security!

:34:50.:35:00.
:35:00.:35:03.

We have been joined by three MPs, the Conservative Chris Skidmore,

:35:03.:35:07.

labour's representative. Michael Gove and NEC are announcing their

:35:07.:35:13.

plans to scrap GCSEs. Let's talk about. Is there a concern among

:35:13.:35:17.

parents and teachers that the exam system in some ways seem to change

:35:17.:35:23.

every year? Well, for somebody who has taken GCSEs, the real change

:35:23.:35:28.

that happens is each year that the standards go up and yet, at the

:35:28.:35:30.

same time, we see from businesses, from universities, they are not

:35:30.:35:34.

happy with the the results and you have got to take GCSEs in an

:35:34.:35:38.

international context. You are seeing grade inflation taking place

:35:38.:35:42.

year-on-year on year and to be fair politicians of all political

:35:42.:35:45.

parties previously hold your hands up, we have not been honest and we

:35:46.:35:51.

have not said, "Hang on a second, we have seen past grades going up

:35:51.:35:58.

from 40% to 70%." And that's what we need to look at. If we are to be

:35:58.:36:02.

fair on the pupils, if they need to get into university, we need to be

:36:03.:36:06.

rigorous in our approach to educational stoondz.

:36:06.:36:09.

-- standards. Did Labour allow the exams to get

:36:09.:36:14.

easy? No. You have to look at what has been taught at school and the

:36:14.:36:18.

quality of teaching and I think it doesn't really matter at the end of

:36:18.:36:23.

the day about the exams. GCSEs are fine and if the Conservatives want

:36:23.:36:26.

to go back to the old-fashioned system which had a two-tier

:36:26.:36:31.

system... But they are not going back to that? It might not be the

:36:31.:36:39.

same. But they are messing up the exam system. If exams didn't get

:36:39.:36:43.

easier so more and more people get higher and higher marks, how come

:36:43.:36:48.

more and more people get better and better at exams and yet in every

:36:48.:36:52.

major international league table we fell down the league tables?

:36:52.:36:56.

reason people did better because there has been real investment by a

:36:56.:36:58.

Labour Party Government for 13 years.

:36:58.:37:03.

Why did they fall down the league tables? Well, they are measured in

:37:03.:37:07.

different ways. Every one we fell down. Something

:37:07.:37:11.

is clearly wrong when our exam results showed us getting better

:37:11.:37:15.

and better and by international international comparisons we were

:37:15.:37:21.

getting worse and worse, we were below Albania on some things?

:37:21.:37:24.

mean that's not the real question here. The real question is about

:37:24.:37:28.

investment in education and about making sure that what has been

:37:28.:37:31.

taught is being taught well. The children are learning it well and

:37:31.:37:35.

not messing around with an exam system... Why doesn't that show up

:37:35.:37:39.

- you are not answering the question. Why doesn't that show up

:37:39.:37:45.

if we had done this investment and our pupils are getting brighter and

:37:45.:37:48.

brighter because teachers are getting better and better, why did

:37:48.:37:52.

we tumble down the international comparisons? Well, there are many

:37:52.:37:56.

different factors why you can have the comparisons, but to pin it down

:37:56.:38:00.

to the fact that it is the exam system that has got easier is the

:38:00.:38:05.

wrong comparison. Why? I am asking you? I am saying

:38:05.:38:10.

that's the wrong comparison to make. The fact is for some reason we want

:38:10.:38:16.

to denigrate our young people because they are doing better -

:38:16.:38:21.

they do. I thought you were against this?

:38:21.:38:26.

no,, what we are against is having a two-tier education system and

:38:26.:38:29.

leaving children behind, deciding at age 14 that some children were

:38:29.:38:33.

less able than others. We have managed to make sure that isn't

:38:33.:38:37.

what is going to happen in the education system going forwards. We

:38:37.:38:40.

have problems in the education system. I think the problems we

:38:40.:38:45.

have is far earlier in the age three to five which is why we have

:38:45.:38:51.

been pushing the pupil premium, �2.5 billion per year will be going

:38:51.:38:57.

into educating early years. If Mr Gove hadn't proposed them in

:38:57.:39:00.

the first place, this is not a route you would have gone down?

:39:00.:39:03.

is not. But it is a coalition Government.

:39:04.:39:07.

You don't really believe in it? looked at the proposals. We made

:39:07.:39:10.

them better. We made sure that no children are left behind.

:39:10.:39:14.

Children are left behind every day? Well, yes they were.

:39:14.:39:19.

They have been left behind in the past and they will be left behind

:39:19.:39:24.

in the future. Look at the number of kids who go to our top

:39:25.:39:28.

universities who are on free school lunches? The reason that that is

:39:28.:39:31.

because our children are not getting the basics right at age

:39:31.:39:36.

three to five. By age five, too many of our children are already

:39:36.:39:40.

left behind and they never camp up and that's why -- catch up and

:39:40.:39:45.

that's where we need to be investing most money to turn that

:39:45.:39:48.

around. I would love to talk more about

:39:48.:39:53.

this because I am interested. This afternoon the welfare secretary,

:39:53.:39:56.

Iain Duncan Smith, will be questioned by MPs about his

:39:56.:40:02.

flagship benefits policy. It is called the Universal Credit. Mr

:40:02.:40:08.

Duncan Smith wants this to replace other benefits. Reports emerged in

:40:08.:40:18.

the papers over the weekend of senior politicians against it. The

:40:18.:40:22.

Social Market Foundation published a report saying that Universal

:40:22.:40:26.

Credit will lead to increased hardship for benefit claimants.

:40:26.:40:30.

The Government are trying to prepare families for work and to

:40:30.:40:37.

simplify the system, but this this single monthly payment is a big

:40:37.:40:42.

gambling. It is handing overall responsibilities to family and our

:40:42.:40:48.

research with low income families show many are concern dha concerned

:40:48.:40:53.

that many will run out of money by the end of the month and it could

:40:53.:40:58.

cause havoc. Chris Skidmore, the Universal

:40:58.:41:03.

Credit, what is it? Well, it is a single wrap around payment that

:41:03.:41:07.

will merge the benefits together. At the moment we have 55 different

:41:07.:41:12.

types of benefits within the DWP. With that will come a measure where

:41:12.:41:15.

we will have a tapering system because there is great unfairness

:41:15.:41:18.

that you can want be in work, but at the same time you haven't got

:41:19.:41:21.

that cushion because you lose your benefits.

:41:21.:41:25.

But will it be universal? We don't know what will happen to council

:41:25.:41:29.

tax benefit? You have got to take that in the context that we have

:41:29.:41:33.

the highest benefits bill in the whole of Europe and it is

:41:33.:41:36.

unsustainable. Really? We pay more benefits than

:41:36.:41:40.

Sweden or France? Yes. Do we? Yes.

:41:40.:41:44.

Where did you get that from? Western Europe.

:41:44.:41:47.

Well, Sweden and France are in Western Europe.

:41:47.:41:50.

More people maybe on it, but that doesn't mean we have the highest

:41:50.:41:57.

bill? Well, the proportion. We'll look at that. It is not, it

:41:57.:42:00.

is probably not quite Universal Credit would be a more accurate

:42:00.:42:05.

name for it, but explain Mr Cameron tried to move Iain Duncan Smith,

:42:05.:42:10.

but this is very much his baby. The Cabinet Secretary seems to be

:42:10.:42:15.

against it and the Lib Dems are lukewarm about it. Is the

:42:15.:42:20.

coalition's heart really in the change? Well, speaking to

:42:20.:42:23.

constituents particularly at Jobcentre, they think this is a

:42:23.:42:27.

radical change change that's needed. I don't know, but speaking to other

:42:27.:42:31.

MPs here, but the number of people I get who have a problem with the

:42:31.:42:34.

system and the complexity of the system, the number of loopholes and

:42:34.:42:38.

issues with that needs to be simplified and sorted out. We can't

:42:38.:42:42.

carried on with the status quo. We can't carry on with the rising

:42:42.:42:47.

benefits bill. Is Labour, I know you can argue

:42:47.:42:53.

about details and say you do things in different ways, but a general

:42:53.:42:56.

proposition, is Labour in favour or against the Universal Credit?

:42:57.:43:00.

principle Labour said they are in favour of the Universal Credit, but

:43:00.:43:04.

it depends on how it is put into place. And the fact that you also

:43:04.:43:08.

have to recognise the fact that there is no one single formula for

:43:08.:43:12.

each family and what the current proposal doesn't do is take those

:43:12.:43:18.

into consideration in a Freedom of Information Request about the

:43:18.:43:22.

Universal Credit to the department which was refused. It seems that

:43:22.:43:29.

the whole scheme has gone over by �100 million. �100 million wouldn't

:43:29.:43:38.

be much in a welfare bill of �130 million... �156 billion.

:43:38.:43:45.

Leaving that aside. More people would go back to work, but that

:43:45.:43:48.

proposals shows because of the changes to working tax credit,

:43:48.:43:53.

increasing the hours from 16 to 24, what you are going to have is more

:43:53.:43:57.

working families lose out on working credits and as a result end

:43:57.:44:02.

up going into the benefit system system which they are out of.

:44:02.:44:09.

If Labour wins the next election will you keep the Universal Credit,

:44:09.:44:14.

or change it in ways you are talking about or scrap it? I think

:44:14.:44:20.

it will be changed in certain ways. So you will keep it? There are good

:44:20.:44:26.

things about it. Some things about it are good, but the way it has

:44:26.:44:34.

been impla thed -- implemented is wrong. Disability benefit benefit

:44:34.:44:41.

for young children is going to go down. People with young families.

:44:41.:44:44.

Those are the things we would make sure wouldn't happen.

:44:44.:44:49.

Would you cut the welfare bill? Some aspects would be cut. What

:44:49.:44:55.

aspects would you cut? What bits would you cut? Cut down on some of

:44:55.:45:04.

the benefits. In terms of, for example, we have said that we will

:45:04.:45:08.

see what the state of the economy is when we get in and then

:45:08.:45:11.

according to that make an adjustment, but we will not hit the

:45:11.:45:15.

vulnerable. No, no, you said that. I wonder

:45:15.:45:25.
:45:25.:45:28.

Has this policy still got legs? People seem to be undermining Iain

:45:28.:45:32.

Duncan Smith within the coalition? I don't mean the Liberal Democrats,

:45:32.:45:36.

I mean the cabinet secretary. It was quite remarkable that Mr

:45:36.:45:40.

Cameron should try to move Iain Duncan Smith. He has told me both

:45:40.:45:43.

privately and publicly that this is the one thing that he is in

:45:43.:45:47.

politics to do, he said to me once - I don't want to do anything else

:45:47.:45:55.

after this is done. Absolutely and probably the they are probably the

:45:55.:45:59.

team, in coalition terms that are working best together. Steve Webb

:45:59.:46:03.

is in there doing the pension side of things and he wouldn't want to

:46:03.:46:06.

be moved. But they are working well together. All parties would agree

:46:06.:46:10.

the principle behind this is about making work pay. It's actually how

:46:10.:46:17.

we do that best. And I think that there are far too many

:46:17.:46:21.

disincentives in the system as it is at present, as Chris has said,

:46:21.:46:25.

when you gain work you immediately lose some means-tested benefits and

:46:25.:46:29.

have to apply for other benefits. By removing a lot of that, it makes

:46:29.:46:33.

it easier for people to move into work, the taper is far better, so

:46:33.:46:38.

we can have people working five hours, ten hours, and it still be

:46:38.:46:42.

worth their while, whereas at the moment it isn't. Is your party

:46:42.:46:46.

united in this? Only earlier this year, Paddy Ashdown spoke out

:46:46.:46:49.

against welfare reform and he was against the benefit cap, even

:46:49.:46:53.

though that will only be reduced to �26,000, which is the average wage

:46:53.:46:58.

people get when they go out and work, and yet you will still get

:46:58.:47:02.

benefits equal to the average age of people working, why speak

:47:02.:47:05.

against it? It is an enormous reform, one of the biggest the

:47:05.:47:08.

Government has ever tried to undertake which presumably is why

:47:08.:47:12.

Labour just avoided it for the last 13 years. There will be elements of

:47:12.:47:16.

Tha'ir lots of people will have issues with. I had issues with some

:47:16.:47:22.

of the welfare reform as well. You know, I voted against some of the

:47:22.:47:25.

proposals on under-occupancy, I don't think they are workable in

:47:25.:47:30.

the present form. But the general thrust of the welfare reform

:47:30.:47:35.

package, and bringing in Universial Credit, is, without doubt, the

:47:35.:47:38.

right direction to be going and all parties I think, agree on that.

:47:38.:47:43.

Have you got a plan B for when the IT system doesn't work? It probably

:47:43.:47:48.

won't, will it? We have had problems. It won't work. But if you

:47:48.:47:53.

look at the system currently it is boosted off BBC micro-s. We have to

:47:53.:47:56.

march forward with this and regardless with technology we will

:47:56.:48:00.

get there in the end. It is an interesting, huge, reform. Now what

:48:00.:48:06.

did you read over the summer? That twepbtyi shades of whatnot nonsense

:48:06.:48:10.

or whatever it was called -- 20 shades. How about Britannia

:48:10.:48:14.

Unchained. It sounds like it could be written by the same author but

:48:14.:48:18.

it is a series of essays by proud young Tory MPs who have come up

:48:18.:48:21.

with solutions for nearly all of the country's problems. They are so

:48:21.:48:24.

bright, that's what they have done. One of the authors is even sitting

:48:24.:48:28.

with me here in the studio. But do these books ever change politics?

:48:28.:48:31.

Adam has been reading between the lines.

:48:31.:48:41.
:48:41.:48:44.

Have you got a book called Britannia Unchained? It's by truss

:48:44.:48:47.

truss truss. -- Liz Truss, Kwasi Kwarteng, Dominic Raab, Chris

:48:47.:48:54.

Skidmore, Priti Patel. No. They are very up-and-coming.

:48:54.:49:00.

I'm very sorry. There it is. Now this is a series

:49:00.:49:04.

of essays about things like the competitiveness of UK industry. How

:49:04.:49:10.

to cut the deficit, good Tory stuff like that. But it hit the headlines

:49:10.:49:14.

after the authors accused British workers of being work shy. It's the

:49:14.:49:20.

latest in a very, very long shelf of political cook books filled with

:49:20.:49:25.

recipes for policies. Now this is one of the granddadies. The Future

:49:25.:49:31.

of socialism by Anthony Crosland. Gordon Brown says in the foreword

:49:31.:49:35.

"It was a wick-up call to a post- war Labour Party. He was a

:49:35.:49:39.

moderniser before the word became current." Then there is compassion

:49:39.:49:43.

able Conservatism by Jesse Norman, now an MP. In the mid-2,000s this

:49:43.:49:47.

is one of the books you reached for if you wanted to know what this new

:49:47.:49:55.

guy, David Cameron, was all about. And about the Orning Book written

:49:55.:49:58.

by Nick Clegg, Christopher Huhne and David Laws. Even now, the

:49:58.:50:03.

Liberal Democrats is split between these guys, who are much more

:50:03.:50:07.

market-friend lip and those who are much more left-wing. But political

:50:07.:50:12.

publisher Iain Dale says no MP writes them for the money because

:50:12.:50:16.

they don't make any. You really write books it make your own rep

:50:16.:50:19.

pew traigs. Over the past few years you have had a few Conservative MPs

:50:19.:50:23.

who got in in the 2010 election who are looking it make their names and

:50:23.:50:27.

stand out from the crowd because there are what, 150 new Tory MPs.

:50:27.:50:33.

The book-buying public has propelled Britannia Unchained in

:50:33.:50:37.

7,000-and-something position in the best seller list of a well-known

:50:37.:50:42.

online retailer but do tomes like this prove more persuasive at

:50:42.:50:45.

Westminster? What has influence is the ideas of being advanced.

:50:45.:50:48.

Remember the books are only one aspect. They do it by newspaper

:50:48.:50:53.

articles, by blogs and interviews on radio and TV. The books by

:50:53.:51:01.

themselves, no, not many will read them. The view among Parliament's

:51:01.:51:04.

bibliophiles is that they mark out people who want to get on. It is

:51:04.:51:10.

not the plot that matters, it is the author. Do you have Full

:51:10.:51:14.

disclosure by Andrew Neil? You do, and it is only 50p. I'll be

:51:14.:51:16.

straight around to do it. Thank you very much.

:51:16.:51:23.

50p. He was robbed. You can get it for 20 on another online list. 20p

:51:23.:51:28.

that is. So, Chris, what is it like to be 7,430 on the best-sellers

:51:28.:51:33.

list? It is an honour for a political book. I'm surprised it

:51:33.:51:37.

got that high so, far. It has only come out. I appreciate the plug.

:51:38.:51:43.

It'll zm now. You call for - it is a libertarian, Europe sceptic pro-

:51:43.:51:49.

reform of welfare, further than Mr Duncan Smith could go. There is no

:51:49.:51:52.

chance that any of this can be done before the next election, in a

:51:52.:51:57.

sense this is your manifesto for the next election. It is very much

:51:57.:52:01.

trying to get ideas on the table. There is nowhere on in book that

:52:01.:52:03.

says this is what the Conservative Party should do to win a general

:52:03.:52:07.

election. This is about getting ideas out to be debated and

:52:07.:52:13.

discussed. Very much in the model, - we are now in the 21 century,

:52:13.:52:17.

looking forward 20 to 30 years. It is an optimistic book. Well there

:52:17.:52:21.

are two parts, we can keep the stpait us quo or how can we compete

:52:22.:52:26.

with India and China and the other nations becoming industrialised, in

:52:26.:52:31.

order to ensure that we continue our place... Are you read this

:52:31.:52:38.

book? Written one, this one? Written one. No. What political

:52:38.:52:48.
:52:48.:52:48.

book influenced you? Well I actually found that the Capital by

:52:48.:52:54.

Marx and others interesting. There is a bit I particularly liked, but

:52:54.:52:57.

competition is the last - business people or capitalism needs

:52:57.:53:02.

competition like it needs a hole in its head. I thought that was a very

:53:02.:53:07.

good expression. Adam Smith put it much better. When a group of

:53:07.:53:11.

businessmen get it better, their purpose is to conspire against the

:53:11.:53:17.

public. He wrote better than Marx. Have you written a bok? I have read

:53:17.:53:23.

a few. Would you like to do one? Are you going to readbury tan why

:53:23.:53:27.

unchained? I have to admit I looked it up on a well-known online

:53:27.:53:32.

retailer. I can get it for �6.28. It'll soon be cheaper than that.

:53:32.:53:39.

might hold on. But the Purple Book about �6.50. What is that?

:53:39.:53:43.

Labour Party's equivalent of the Orning Book. You can get it for

:53:43.:53:49.

�6.50 but you have to pay �10 for the Orange Book. Orange Book must

:53:49.:53:52.

have been the most talked about Liberal Democrat book of modern

:53:52.:53:56.

times. People define themselves to it. It is portrayed as being a

:53:56.:53:59.

left-right split, where your reporter mentioned a number of

:53:59.:54:05.

people who contributed to it but one of the main contributors was

:54:05.:54:07.

Vince cable. Nobody would say that the Conservatives look upon him -

:54:08.:54:12.

well they would say he should be in another party - but not the

:54:12.:54:17.

Conservative Party. Didn't David Laws call in it for an insurance-

:54:17.:54:20.

based system of health care. What happened to that? It's ideas. All

:54:20.:54:25.

out there for ideas. Have you read it It is radical and far-reaching

:54:25.:54:29.

stuff. Some of the stuff on top-up fees, if we ever get there, will be

:54:29.:54:33.

welcome. We need to move on. We have an important contemporary

:54:33.:54:38.

story to do. Very up-to-date. Britain could see a full-scale

:54:38.:54:42.

state funeral. Oh, yes, for king Richard III. Chris Skidmore here

:54:42.:54:47.

thinks so, but only if a set of bones that were nound a car park in

:54:47.:54:52.

Leicester turns out to be the remains of the 159 century king. -

:54:52.:54:57.

were found. Lin Foxhall is head of the

:54:57.:55:00.

University of Leicester's School of Archaeology. Does it look like

:55:00.:55:06.

these are the bones of King Richard III? Well we have a pretty likely

:55:06.:55:11.

candidate for the body of King Richard III, but at the moment it

:55:11.:55:17.

is only circumstantial evidence. We have a skeleton, male, clearly

:55:17.:55:23.

killed in battle and with severe scoliosis, that is curvature of the

:55:23.:55:30.

spine, buried in a place in the grey friers' Church, where some

:55:30.:55:40.
:55:40.:55:40.

historical sources suggested he ought to be buried Grey Friarss

:55:40.:55:45.

Church. But we need to do more testing to make sure this is really

:55:45.:55:48.

the right individual, including genetic testing. When skilled

:55:48.:55:52.

professionals like yourselves and others get to grips with this, will

:55:52.:55:57.

you be able to tills, reasonably defintively, at some stage, whether

:55:57.:56:01.

or not this is the king? Well, we hope so. Again, it depends on the

:56:01.:56:05.

results of the DNA testing. And there are many things that could go

:56:05.:56:10.

wrong with that. I mean we hope, we're pretty hopeful that we'll get

:56:10.:56:14.

some good results out of that, but at this stage we can't be certain

:56:14.:56:18.

and that's going to take about another 12 weeks. I mean it is very

:56:18.:56:24.

unusual for archaeologists to be able to identify individuals in the

:56:24.:56:27.

archaeological record. This is extraordinary. And that we have got

:56:28.:56:33.

this close to even suggesting we have a famous individual is pretty

:56:33.:56:37.

remarkable. All right let me bring Chris Skidmore in. Why - let's

:56:37.:56:41.

assume this is the king - why should he get a state funeral?

:56:41.:56:45.

I think it's followed the traditions of every single anointed

:56:45.:56:49.

English king or Queen that they are afforded a state funeral at the end

:56:49.:56:54.

of their lives. We have not dug many up. No but everyone buried has

:56:54.:56:58.

been given a state funeral. Who is going to pay for the cost? Well it

:56:58.:57:01.

is something to be debated. I put down the motion to discuss it.

:57:01.:57:05.

There are interesting things, whether Richard should be buried in

:57:05.:57:10.

a Catholic orangely cancer mony. would have to be Catholic, he

:57:10.:57:13.

wasn't Anglican. Well there is a debate. How can you do that in the

:57:13.:57:18.

modern world, how can you have a Catholic state funeral? Well there

:57:18.:57:21.

may be Catholic rites so you could have a state funeral wrapped up

:57:21.:57:26.

within that. But it is worthwhile having a discussion. It is a

:57:26.:57:30.

remarkable find. Isn't this the chap that killed the Princes in the

:57:30.:57:37.

tower. Well that's certainly debatable. Tudor propaganda. I am

:57:37.:57:41.

have written a become about the Battle of Bosworth. I'm having to

:57:41.:57:51.

rewrite it because of the findings. People went missing. He Boss the

:57:51.:57:55.

Battle of Bosworth. Professor you must be excited about this, whether

:57:55.:57:59.

or not the bones should get a state funeral, it is a great find. It is.

:57:59.:58:03.

This is a debate we need to have further down the line. We're

:58:03.:58:09.

following, as all archaeologists should, the English Heritage and

:58:09.:58:16.

the Code of Ethical Practice for dealing on burials. And English

:58:16.:58:20.

Heritage's view on Christian burials is when you reinter the

:58:20.:58:25.

bones, where they get reinterred is a matter for discussion between all

:58:25.:58:28.

the relevant interested parties. Now in the case with a remarkable

:58:28.:58:31.

situation and a remarkable individual like this, there are

:58:31.:58:35.

some very important interested parties, including the Church of

:58:35.:58:39.

England and possibly the Palace, certainly possibly Parliament. So I

:58:39.:58:43.

think we're going to have this debate later. All right, professor.

:58:43.:58:47.

I'm sorry I have to interrupt. You will need the professor of

:58:47.:58:51.

diplomacy when it comes to all that. Thank you for joining us. People

:58:51.:58:54.

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