05/10/2012 Daily Politics


05/10/2012

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, including a preview of the Conservative Party Conference with Home Office minister James Brokenshire.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. The party

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conference bandwagon enters the home straight as the Conservatives

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prepare for their little shindig in Birmingham next week. But can David

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Cameron rally the troops like Ed Miliband did? He has a bus on his

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hands. Behind in the polls and facing criticism from all sides

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about his leadership. We will speak to one of his ministers.

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The got a spare 10 billion euros? De EU has a past be run out of cash.

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We will speak to the French MEP who thinks it is time to cough up.

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Thousands of BBC employees as well as other public sector workers have

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been helped to pay less tax. MPs issued a damning report.

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And who is up, who is down? We will have a round-up of the last seven

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All that in the next hour. With us is Rachel Sylvester from the Times

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and Steve Richards on the Independent. Welcome to both of you.

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Let's start with the news that tax arrangements for some public sector

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workers have been criticised by MPs. A Public Accounts Committee report

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says too many make their own arrangements to pay tax and

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national insurance, which could allow them to pay less. The chair

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of the committee, Margaret Hodge, says public sector workers have to

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be whiter than white. If you work in the public service,

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it is upon you to lead by example. Hard-working families up and down

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the country are paying a lot in tax, and it is wrong that individuals

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working in the public service, whose money comes from the tax

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those families pay, are not paying their share.

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Margaret Hodge. Rachel Sylvester, at what point does it become

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immoral to try to reduce the amount of tax that you pay? It is not

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illegal. The Times has had a huge reaction

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to its campaign on tax avoidance. There is a difference between

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something illegal and something immoral. There is a grey area, but

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I think there are times when you are within the law that it is not

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right. Interestingly, politicians have cottoned on to this. It is a

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way in which the Tory party can be criticising wealthy billionaire's

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who are avoiding tax, and their way of making themselves seem not just

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on the side of the rich. Labour get to hit at them, too.

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What about it being targeted at public sector workers or those who

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work in the public sector? Somehow they should not be allowed to

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reduce their tax rate, even within the law?

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Margaret Hodge summed it up when she said that they are being paid

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through the taxation system. Therefore they have a moral

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obligation. I think others do as well, actually. I can't see the

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case why some should pay 40% or whatever and others 21%. There is

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no logical moral argument justifying it. Also, now, we need

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the money. Where do you draw the line? You

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agree with it in principle, saying it was a populist campaign. Where

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do you draw the line on avoidance? How do you legislate for people not

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to have accountants who can reduce tax?

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There are mechanisms that are clearly aggressively designed to

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avoid paying tax. It is not just using the system in a way that is

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clearly fair and above board. It is aggressively going out and trying

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to avoid paying tax. That is wrong. Let's move on to our quiz. Today is

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the 50th anniversary of the release of the first James Bond film, Dr No.

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The question for today is which Cabinet minister has a Bond poster

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of themselves? David Cameron, William Hague, Theresa May, or Eric

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Pickles? What a fine bunch! At the end of

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the show, our guests will try to give us the right answer.

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As David Cameron... Something for you to think about! As David

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Cameron packs for Birmingham, he may think that the backdrop to the

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conference is not all he would have hoped for. The blunder over the

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West Coast rail franchise has revived claims that his government

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is incompetent, perhaps it is still in the grip of the budget

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omnishambles we started back in the sprint. It Miliband's pitch to

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represent One Nation at his conference has caught some movement

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in the polls, with 27% of people in one survey saying the Labour leader

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would make the best Prime Minister. Only just behind Mr Cameron, who is

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on 31%. And Mr Cameron has got friends like Boris Johnson

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challenging the way he is leading the party. The London mayor has

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accused the government of complacency over airport capacity

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in the south-east of England. Liam Fox from the right of the party

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says today that the Tories are being ban by a metropolitan elite.

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Wonder who he could have in mind! Believes Mr Cameron with a tricky

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balancing act. Does he defend the coalition or find some red meat for

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the party faithful? Let's be to our political correspondent, Chris

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Mason. Let's look at the slogan. Britain can deliver. Is it an

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attempt to reclaim the One Nation idea from Ed Miliband?

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To an extent. The banner has just been unveiled in the last hour or

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so. The security sweep is under way before people start to arrive.

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Britain can deliver - the response to all of the Labour stuff we had

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earlier in the week. The emphasis is on a job that is continuing to

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be done. That is the subtext of the slogan. The emphasis is that 25% of

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the deficit has been paid down. There is big reform going on in

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education in England, in the welfare state and the benefits

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system, and there is more to achieve. They say, they will argue,

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that the Conservatives can achieve it in coalition and even more

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quickly if there was a Conservative majority government after 2015. The

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party chairman started off a few days of banging the Conservative

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trump. He has given an interview to the Evening Standard. He was asked,

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will be Conservatives show mercy to the Lib Dems at the election?

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Answer? Absolutely not. Lord Ashcroft, the former chairman,

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has carried out some polling to find out why certain groups are not

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voting Conservative. Interesting reading?

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Very interesting. What he has done, and of course, any attempt to

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conduct a poll and then trunk up segments of society into categories

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and attach a label, that runs a risk of being lampooned as quiet

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that people, it be like in the sitcoms. It is a thoughtful piece

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of work, though. It also about suspicious strivers. It seems a bit

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like the Labour idea of the squeeze to mid-off. He feared that the

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Conservatives have alienated those people who fear that there are

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those who are reliant on the state, who are helped by government, and

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there are those at the top of the pecking order who are helped by the

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state as well. But there are those suspicious drivers -- strivers who

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have Conservative ideals but fear the state does not help them

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sufficiently. He fears those people have peeled off in the direction of

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Labour in the last couple of years. If the Conservatives can secure the

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majority, they need to win them back before 2015.

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With us now is the Conservative Home Office minister James

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Brokenshire. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. We just discussed

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the slogan. If you can't deliver the West Coast Mainline, the at

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said the government has earned irritation for incompetence?

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-- do you accept the government has earned a reputation for

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incompetence? The mood of the conference will be

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how we need to continue to deliver for Britain, supporting those

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people who are striving in difficulty to ensure that we are

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helping those in to work. Some things we have already done, like

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cutting the deficit, the work programmes supporting 330,000

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people into employment. It is that Focus that we will have during the

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conference. But what will be at the forefront

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will be the tax bill of a least �40 million because of this West Coast

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Mainline fiasco. It is right Bedi Transport

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Secretary is taking the steps in terms of the two reviews being

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taken. -- it is right that the Transport Secretary. That is the

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right thing for him to do. He is taking clear action in this regard.

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Clearly, we need to sort the issue out.

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As a Home Office minister, you must be pleased the focus is not on your

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department for once. Are you relieved?

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The Home Office is always an interesting place. But no, our

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focus is on securing the public, making sure we have the police

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doing the job we want them to do, free of the bureaucracy of the last

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government. That is our focus, and clearly, the issues that the Home

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Secretary and also the Justice Secretary will be taking forward,

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they are how we can deliver the scent of safety. The Justice

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Secretary has met an interesting comments about how we can get

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community punishment. We will come onto that. Do the

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comments attributed to be Andrew -- to Andromede due -- to be to do

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Andrew Mitchell will be harmful? That was utterly wrong.

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It was right for him not to go to the conference?

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That is a matter for Andrew. He has made that decision. That is for him

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to decide. We do respect our police at this time, when we have seen of

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the real dangers that they can be involved in. I understand that.

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That is why we want to support the police, ensuring that government

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itself, central government, is His Boris Johnson...

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I think people will vote for the Conservatives. They will understand

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the power people will have over law and order on their streets.

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Somebody else who talks about that in London is the mayor, Boris

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Johnson. He is a friend of the government, or an enemy?

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He is a fantastic advocate of the Conservative Party and of London. I

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worked alongside him during the Olympics, as well as the Prime

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Minister. It is a powerful show they can bring to the fore. I think

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he will be a great advocate for the party. He is doing his bit for

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London, in his way. It is right that he should do so.

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But do you agree with his comments criticising the government over the

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aviation capacity? He has criticised them a lot of what he

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called a timetable for economic catastrophe, unless a deal with the

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lack of capacity in the South East. I think we need to base this on the

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evidence. That is what the government is doing, looking at the

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various capacities. Is that helpful to the government?

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Boris has got to do his job as Mayor of London, seeing what he

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thinks is the right thing for him to be putting forward. That is his

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own perspective. What we need to do is to look at the evidence. But

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what the Government is intending to do. We need to get this decision

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right, understanding what the aviation industry needs.

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His Boris Johnson going to be a help or a hindrance at this

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conference? I think he will be a hindrance. He

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is going to show people an alternative. There is a tetchy mood

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in the party because of the polls. People will have a different

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analysis about the ratings, and Boris has his. The interesting

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thing coming out of the Labour conference, when Ed Miliband to be

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:14:14.:14:14.

a One Nation label, is whether David Cameron can come back. --

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went Ed Miliband took the One Nation label. You have got people

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like Boris in the wings. If Cameron can put a stamp on the party, that

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will put an end to it. A what does David Cameron need to

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do, then? Dusty answer the question that has been outlined or does he

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To be honest, he cannot do anything. Governments have set their course

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by now. Budgets, Queen's speeches, autumn reports were the course is

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set. As Rachel suggested, after an early flirtation with the centre

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ground, one nation Toryism, whether you disagree with it or agree with

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it, on the right, whether it is the economic policies or the public

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service reforms. It has been closer to that part of the political

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spectrum in recent years. I don't think a speech on Wednesday morning

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will change very much. What do you say to that? I think we have the

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opportunity which I think will be taken, to set out the tough

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decisions we need to take to get the economy right. We have cut the

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deficit by a quarter already. deficit that is going back up again.

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We have created 1.2 million private sector jobs. Also things on welfare

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reform as well. If you are in work, work will always pay. We have a

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culture that is the hand of to assist people into work, rather

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than the handout dependency culture we had under Labour. We have fancy

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rhetoric from the Labour Party setting out some slogans, but very

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light on substance. You will see in the coming week, a real substance

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on what is happening. The back empty rhetoric has delivered its 14.

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Lead for Labour and even more worrying, David Cameron's poll

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ratings are starting to slide against Ed Miliband. Do you see Ed

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Miliband as an s it? My focus is ensuring we get the country right.

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We are going to underline the lack of vision, lack of focus and the

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fact that the Labour leader has been looking to the past in terms

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of trying to draw upon a previous Conservative Prime Minister. If he

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wants to use Conservative slogans, it is up to him. But he is not

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learning, accepting the mistakes the last Labour Government made. So

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how can he offer the future? It is an important message to give on the

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mistakes that were made, how we are dealing with those problems and

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delivering for Britain. Thanks very much, have a good conference. Now,

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have you got a spare ten billion euros? No? Well we might be asked

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to help out a bit after a warning this week that the European Union

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needs some extra cash to tide it over until Christmas. Alain

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Lamassoure, the French MEP who chairs the European Parliament's

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Budget Committee, says the EU is running out of money and needs an

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extra ten billion euros to finance its projects up to the end of the

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year. Monsieur Lamassoure joins us now from Paris.

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Are you saying the EU's 10 billion euros overspends the this year? It

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is an awful lot of money. It is an order of magnitude, the European

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Commission will be able to precise the figure. The problem is, we lack

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cash. As you know, in every Budget, we make this thing wishing between

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money we have to commit ourselves to those services. It is commitment

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appropriation. And when the services are delivered, we pay and

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we need payments appropriations. We have had enough commitments, but

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now when money is committed and the service delivered, we have to pay

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and we lack the cash. People say you have not budgeted properly, you

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have spent the money frivolously and now you are expecting nation-

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states, who come a lot of them are struggling in recession, too strong

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up the extra cash? responsibility for that is not the

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European Parliament it is budget ministers. Every year when we

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negotiate the amount and structure of the EU budget, the budget

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ministers on one side and Parliament on the other side. We

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discuss commitments. When you commit money, it is not an election

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promise, it is a legal obligation. On commitments, ministers don't

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care, they don't even discuss it. They are only interested on

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payments. So they are generous on commitments, but they are very

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Mauritius on payments. Now we are in this contradiction. If we have

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to pay, it is not due to the extravagance of the Eurocrats, it

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is due to the contradiction of budget ministers between what they

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commit and what they don't want to pay. There is an argument that says

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are you making a fuss about this now, highlighting this

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contradiction, as you set out, in order to increase pressure on the

:20:33.:20:43.
:20:43.:20:47.

nation states to put up the EU budget beyond 2013? My arguments --

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argument is to demonstrate, to oblige governments to avoid double

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talk, to be candid and to say what they want really. Last June, there

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was a European Council. As you know, the European summits is taking

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unanimously. And they decided unanimously that 120 billion euros

:21:20.:21:26.

more would be dedicated to sustain growth and competitiveness in the

:21:26.:21:32.

European Union. And it was agreed by everybody, including the British

:21:32.:21:39.

Prime Minister. And, a few weeks later when we start of fulfilling

:21:39.:21:45.

this decision, we realise all finance ministers want to cut the

:21:45.:21:55.

payments. Instead of increasing them. Things have to be clear. We,

:21:55.:22:00.

as you mention, we are preparing for talks on the framework of the

:22:00.:22:08.

EU budget for the next seven years. But things have to be clear. Who

:22:08.:22:13.

wants to increase the EU budget? He wants to freeze or cut the EU

:22:13.:22:19.

budget? But, when you decide to raise it, you have to pay. When you

:22:19.:22:24.

commit you have to deliver. have made that clear, I will put

:22:24.:22:27.

that to members of the European Parliament.

:22:27.:22:30.

We can talk now to the UKIP MEP, Marta Andreasen, who's in our

:22:30.:22:40.
:22:40.:22:42.

Southampton studio. Hasn't he got a point? He says they want to do all

:22:42.:22:45.

these things, he says they had committed the nations to these

:22:45.:22:51.

things and now they don't want to pay up? This is the same Commission

:22:51.:22:58.

that told us in February that they had a shortfall for 2011 of 11

:22:58.:23:07.

billion euros. But in April, two months later they had a surplus for

:23:07.:23:11.

2011 of 1.5 billion euros. This has no reliable information or evidence

:23:11.:23:17.

they need the money. He talks about the commitments, but the

:23:17.:23:21.

commitments that are recorded on the books of the Commission are not

:23:21.:23:26.

legal commitments. It is a setting a part of some money for certain

:23:26.:23:30.

projects. The initiative that comes from the Commission and from the

:23:30.:23:34.

Parliament committees, it does not come actually from the member

:23:34.:23:42.

states. I was voting for one day and a half for the Budget in 2013.

:23:42.:23:47.

A lot of initiatives are put on by the political parties in the

:23:47.:23:52.

Parliament without actually knowing if there is any need. Let me tell

:23:52.:23:59.

you, cohesion funding requires Co financing by the member states.

:23:59.:24:04.

Member states have no money to do this. How can they do this if they

:24:04.:24:12.

need more money for cohesion funding now? There are two points

:24:12.:24:16.

made by Alleyne. He said the projects need to be paid for and

:24:16.:24:21.

there is a legal obligation, he says it is legally binding those

:24:21.:24:26.

nation-states to have asked for those projects to be completed,

:24:26.:24:30.

have now been completed and the payments must be there. Are you

:24:30.:24:34.

saying, just because they have not got any money because of the

:24:34.:24:39.

economic situation, they shouldn't be obliged to pay up? Or are you

:24:39.:24:43.

saying they have got their sums wrong? I am saying the need to pay

:24:43.:24:49.

is not there. The calculation of 10 billion came up after a meeting

:24:49.:24:55.

with the budget commissioner. He came to support the need for 10

:24:55.:25:01.

billion, just saying at the end of September 2012, 80% of the

:25:01.:25:08.

commitments have been paid. Well as at the end of September 2011, only

:25:08.:25:12.

3% of the commitment has been paid. He deals because of the rate of

:25:12.:25:18.

payments is higher at the end of September, it is in need of cash.

:25:18.:25:24.

This is the only evidence he provides. He does not list to us, a

:25:24.:25:28.

list of legal commitments the countries are asking to pay but.

:25:28.:25:34.

Thank you very much. Listening to both sides of the argument, how

:25:34.:25:37.

much chance do you think David Cameron has in terms of arguing for

:25:37.:25:43.

a freeze in terms of the EU budget? I have no idea. He won't win that

:25:43.:25:48.

because he has no power to impose VAT on himself. They suppose he

:25:48.:25:52.

would get some cosmetic victory in terms of Britain's contribution

:25:52.:25:57.

because he needs to do that. What is interesting is, at the next

:25:57.:26:02.

election, the three major party leaders will go into the election

:26:02.:26:06.

offering a referendum on Europe. None of them will personally

:26:06.:26:12.

believe it or want to hold it. don't think they personally won't

:26:12.:26:16.

believe it, why not? The Lib Dems always said they would hold the

:26:16.:26:23.

referendum. There is a risk now, been made that pledge years ago,

:26:23.:26:28.

and the risk is now they would lose it. One of the other two will win

:26:28.:26:35.

and will be obliged to hold this nightmarish thing. It David Cameron

:26:35.:26:40.

is the Prime Minister, it will split his party. It Ed Miliband it

:26:40.:26:45.

is the Prime Minister, he risks losing it. None of them will want

:26:45.:26:48.

to hold the referendum but all three will go into the next

:26:48.:26:55.

election offering it. The main threat to the main parties is UKIP.

:26:55.:26:59.

This is the sort of argument they are continuing to present to the

:26:59.:27:03.

British people, saying costs have been and are running out of control.

:27:03.:27:09.

There will benefit from this row? It taps into the idea of out of

:27:09.:27:14.

touch bureaucrats making decisions about our money. It is the small

:27:14.:27:19.

person against the machine. And small parties like UKIP and the

:27:19.:27:24.

Green Party can tap into because of the disillusionment with wider

:27:24.:27:28.

politics. In the end, we have talked before about any deal that

:27:28.:27:36.

could be done between UKIP and David Cameron. If the parties do a

:27:36.:27:43.

further referendum, it will shoot their thought? He depends what the

:27:43.:27:48.

referendum is. David Cameron will have to do what Harold Wilson did

:27:48.:27:52.

in 1974 and renegotiate our terms of membership. And then say on the

:27:52.:27:57.

basis of that we will offer a referendum. But also David Cameron

:27:57.:28:01.

will have to campaign for staying in. He won't go into a referendum

:28:01.:28:06.

campaign to take Britain out. he has resisted going for the

:28:06.:28:09.

referendum in the first place because it puts him in a difficult

:28:09.:28:11.

position. The North of England hasn't exactly

:28:11.:28:14.

been a happy hunting ground for the Conservatives of late. They lost

:28:15.:28:17.

more than 100 councillors in the last set of local elections and

:28:18.:28:21.

there are 25 fewer MPs in the region now than there were at the

:28:21.:28:23.

height of Thatcherism. As a consequence, a great deal of

:28:24.:28:26.

thought and energy is being expended on how to restore the

:28:26.:28:30.

party's fortunes in the region. But is the North a lost cause, or can

:28:30.:28:39.

the Tories turn things round? David Thompson reports.

:28:40.:28:44.

Tynemouth, a few miles outside Newcastle, the kind of place you

:28:44.:28:48.

might end of it you have made it in the North East. Conservative, but

:28:48.:28:54.

not necessarily with a big sea. If this street was a few hundred miles

:28:54.:28:58.

to the south, chances are it would be in a safe Tory seat. Because it

:28:58.:29:03.

is in the north, it isn't. It feels like it should have Conservative

:29:03.:29:08.

written all over it, but yet places like this all over England, the

:29:08.:29:12.

party is failing and struggling to get its message across. What would

:29:12.:29:17.

it take to get you to vote Conservative? Nothing, I wouldn't

:29:17.:29:22.

vote Conservative. Why not? It is how I had been brought up. Have you

:29:22.:29:27.

ever thought about voting Conservative? Yes, it in the last

:29:28.:29:31.

time when Margaret Thatcher was in. I voted Conservative last time

:29:31.:29:36.

because I thought Labour had lost the plot. But now they have been in

:29:36.:29:42.

power couple of years, I am not so certain. What we did get you to

:29:42.:29:46.

vote Conservative? You have not got enough money in the world. A loaded

:29:46.:29:53.

gun! Those attitudes are being felt on the ground. His place hasn't had

:29:53.:29:57.

a Conservative MP since 1977. The local council does have a Tory

:29:57.:30:03.

mayor, but the party has gone from having 31 councillors in 2010 to

:30:03.:30:09.

just 12 now. And his former group leader, himself a casualty, reckons

:30:09.:30:19.
:30:19.:30:27.

this was created down south. Are very few people were affected

:30:27.:30:35.

by the tax relief, but it played badly with the public. Conservative

:30:35.:30:40.

voters decided to stay at home. They say 1,000 miles Jenny start of

:30:40.:30:46.

a single step. Guy Opperman did not do that but he tried to work out

:30:46.:30:49.

how to find friends for his party in the north.

:30:49.:30:59.
:30:59.:31:00.

I walked over 200 miles, from Sheffield to Scotland. The events

:31:00.:31:05.

were in suburban places, and I was trying to listen to people, talk to

:31:05.:31:07.

people and get a better understanding of the problems we

:31:07.:31:11.

face and what we need to do to win in the north.

:31:11.:31:15.

The problem is the communication of the message.

:31:15.:31:19.

The policies we are coming up with, they are very good. They are

:31:19.:31:23.

positive. But we have not been getting the message across, and we

:31:23.:31:28.

have not been getting it across locally or nationally.

:31:28.:31:34.

According to policy experts, like this one, the process could begin

:31:34.:31:39.

with a single word - you know, the hardest one.

:31:39.:31:45.

Tories have to say they understand why people haven't been voting Tory.

:31:45.:31:52.

They have to say, look, sorry, now is it time to give us a second

:31:52.:32:02.
:32:02.:32:02.

chance. Now is the time to listen to the message. Especially if the

:32:02.:32:06.

message is a blue-collar narrative about opportunity and job creation,

:32:06.:32:09.

and about helping people who are affected by squeezing living

:32:09.:32:13.

standards. Attitudes can take a long time to

:32:13.:32:17.

turn around, especially in politics. But if the Conservatives want

:32:17.:32:21.

another term in power, they need the North of England. Perhaps more

:32:21.:32:28.

than the North needs them. Guy Opperman joins us. How long was

:32:28.:32:35.

the walk? 275 miles, from just outside

:32:35.:32:38.

Sheffield, through County Down, six days in my constituency, and over

:32:38.:32:42.

the border into Scotland. Did it rain?

:32:42.:32:49.

All the time! At it was interesting listening to people.

:32:49.:32:56.

It was good to hear what people were saying. We talk about what we

:32:56.:33:02.

were doing on immigration. People like that. They did not know that

:33:02.:33:10.

is what they were -- we were doing. In my area, in the summer, we had a

:33:10.:33:15.

local election. We increased our vote by 10%, and won a seat from

:33:15.:33:18.

the Lib Dems. If you were talking to David

:33:18.:33:24.

Cameron, what we do ask him to do to turn it around? What two or

:33:24.:33:27.

three things would be done to get the votes.

:33:27.:33:32.

It would not happen just like that. It would not be immediately. We

:33:32.:33:36.

need to communicate the message, get out there, actually tell people

:33:36.:33:40.

what we are doing. If you do that, and you explain the immigration cap,

:33:40.:33:44.

explain what we are doing on benefits, those things resonate

:33:44.:33:48.

with voters. What about things like petrol

:33:48.:33:52.

prices? Ave is the sort of issues that would appeal to northern

:33:52.:33:58.

voters? -- are these. The petrol price has been frozen 10

:33:58.:34:08.

times. 10 times it went up under Labour. That is a stark message. We

:34:08.:34:11.

make that point to Labour voters and they understand.

:34:11.:34:15.

A do you think the leadership gets it, though?

:34:15.:34:20.

I think they understand the north. Eric Pickles is from Bradford. You

:34:20.:34:24.

can see the work we have done in Yorkshire. The Foreign Secretary is

:34:24.:34:29.

from Yorkshire. It is not the case that they are not from the north.

:34:29.:34:33.

We have got to start from the basis, when locally, which is what we are

:34:33.:34:36.

doing in Northumberland and Yorkshire.

:34:36.:34:40.

Is the North going the same way for the Tories as Scotland?

:34:40.:34:44.

It was interesting to be at the Labour Party Conference. I did not

:34:44.:34:48.

understand they have not got a single councillor in Scotland, for

:34:48.:34:57.

example. There is a real danger, and it is interesting when you ask

:34:57.:35:04.

if David Cameron gets the serious nature of it. Yes, he does. I spoke

:35:04.:35:09.

to him in the leadership conference -- competition. He said he wanted

:35:09.:35:18.

to make inroads in Scotland. Since then, as we were discussing earlier,

:35:18.:35:24.

the policy direction he has taken has alienated too many of the

:35:24.:35:29.

voters. What do you say to that? I disagree.

:35:29.:35:34.

It must be about policy. Look at the caps on immigration and

:35:34.:35:39.

benefits. They are robust conservative policies that are

:35:39.:35:43.

popular. Look at successes like Yorkshire. We took a dozen seats at

:35:43.:35:51.

the last election. Look at Bradford, with a 23% Kashmiri constituency,

:35:51.:35:57.

and it was one away from Labour. We heard from some people that you

:35:57.:36:02.

have not got enough money to make them vote Conservative. But there

:36:02.:36:10.

is a problem with image. That is always going to be the case.

:36:10.:36:14.

The North South divide is something that Ed Miliband is trying to make

:36:14.:36:18.

something out of. Are the Tories on a hiding to

:36:18.:36:23.

nothing? I think there is a perception of a

:36:23.:36:29.

metropolitan elite in Number Ten. You have a big number of Old

:36:29.:36:34.

Etonians, friends of Dave and George from Oxford in the machine

:36:34.:36:37.

and in government. That does alienate people. The problem is,

:36:37.:36:41.

that is compounded by things like cutting the top rate of tax. The

:36:41.:36:46.

image problem that the Tories have has been exacerbated by decisions

:36:46.:36:49.

they have made in power, which appeared to favour the rich over

:36:49.:36:54.

the poor. That is a decision, not just an image.

:36:54.:36:59.

When I was selected I was better known as a jockey than a politician.

:36:59.:37:03.

It is true that you need to be more local and you need to work much

:37:03.:37:08.

harder on the ground, and that message needs to get across. You

:37:08.:37:11.

are a local represent the first and foremost. You're not a northerner.

:37:11.:37:16.

How did you get elected? I was better known as a jockey than

:37:16.:37:19.

a politician. That is how you made the connection?

:37:19.:37:23.

I was also up there running a business.

:37:23.:37:27.

But you are now representing a northern constituency. Has it open

:37:27.:37:36.

your eyes to the real concerns? It has. Also, going on the walks.

:37:36.:37:42.

22 days later we talking to people, chatting away, it was a good

:37:42.:37:48.

process. -- literally talking to people.

:37:48.:37:52.

Labour can't take anything for granted.

:37:52.:37:57.

You are right about that. They saw Scotland as there has and took it

:37:57.:38:06.

for granted. -- as theirs. In the current situation, no party can

:38:06.:38:11.

take anything for granted. However, I think it is about image, of

:38:11.:38:17.

course, but to do better policy, the recession, and we are still in

:38:17.:38:21.

recession, is affecting the Northmoor.

:38:21.:38:31.
:38:31.:38:34.

That is simply not the case. But presumably it is countered by a

:38:34.:38:38.

drop in the public sector. A Yes, but jobs are going up.

:38:38.:38:44.

Apprentices are over 50%. These are good messages. What you have just

:38:44.:38:48.

said is wrong. Well, thank you for coming in. I

:38:48.:38:55.

hope you next walk is sunnier. you were a factor jockey, you have

:38:55.:39:01.

lost it all! Thank you. This week, far from River -- living

:39:02.:39:08.

up to its reputation, the Civil Service has looked like a Robin

:39:08.:39:10.

Reliant. Civil servants have been getting it in the neck from

:39:11.:39:14.

ministers accusing them of gross incompetence in the wake of the

:39:14.:39:18.

West Coast Mainline fiasco. It is expected to cost the taxpayer �40

:39:18.:39:22.

million at least. The new Transport Secretary has made it clear who he

:39:22.:39:32.
:39:32.:39:33.

Then, in a speech on Tuesday, the minister for the Cabinet Office,

:39:33.:39:43.
:39:43.:39:48.

Not all mandarins have taken this lying down. The former cabinet

:39:48.:39:58.
:39:58.:40:00.

secretary, Lord O'Donnell, warned I have been joined by Siobhan

:40:00.:40:05.

Benita, the former London mayor candidate and former civil servant,

:40:05.:40:10.

and Douglas Carswell, the Tory backbencher. Siobhan Benita, is it

:40:10.:40:12.

unreasonable for ministers to assume that civil servants,

:40:12.:40:16.

supposedly intelligent people, can get their sums right?

:40:16.:40:24.

That is not unreasonable. What is unreasonable to blame them -- is to

:40:24.:40:27.

blame them when things go wrong. Ministers are quick to take the

:40:27.:40:31.

credit when things go well. We have had the Olympics, politicians from

:40:31.:40:35.

all parties quick to associate themselves with that. You did not

:40:35.:40:38.

see civil servants getting credit for those things. When something

:40:38.:40:42.

goes wrong, this is a shared responsibility. You do have

:40:42.:40:47.

ministers as well as civil servants being held to account.

:40:47.:40:51.

Even though in this case, they are qualified civil servants looking at

:40:51.:40:55.

technical spreadsheet and matters in terms of passenger numbers and

:40:55.:40:59.

pressures that would have come up in the next few years to deal -- to

:40:59.:41:03.

do with these franchises. I take your point that they should take

:41:03.:41:08.

responsibility because they are accountable. It but -- but it can't

:41:08.:41:14.

be a minister's fault, can it? A contract as they as this,

:41:14.:41:20.

ministers would have known this comes under a lot of scrutiny. Sure,

:41:20.:41:24.

the junior officials would have had to do their part in this. But it

:41:24.:41:28.

would have had to go through the board, and the board is chaired by

:41:28.:41:31.

the Secretary of State for Transport. You have an internal

:41:31.:41:37.

audit process, which non executives chair. They have to have various

:41:37.:41:44.

responsibilities. Douglas Carswell, do you think that

:41:44.:41:47.

if Theresa Villiers and Justine Greening, if they were still in

:41:47.:41:52.

post, would they have to resign? I don't think anybody thinks the

:41:52.:41:57.

minister should look at the figures and be able to work out whether the

:41:57.:42:01.

civil servants have factored in inflation. But there's a lot of

:42:01.:42:06.

sense in what should Vaughan says. We should never have a situation

:42:06.:42:15.

when SL7 can hide behind a mandarin. -- when a minister. What we needed

:42:15.:42:19.

to make sure that civil servants and mandarins are accountable. I

:42:19.:42:23.

have been in the House of Commons for five or six years, and I have

:42:23.:42:28.

been shocked at how little accountability there is among the

:42:28.:42:33.

white will mandarins. It is not just that they seem to be

:42:33.:42:36.

incompetent at times with catastrophic effects of the tax

:42:36.:42:42.

payer. The Civil Service is more of a self- service. They are

:42:42.:42:46.

interested in of strutting policy. Let's get back to the calibre of

:42:46.:42:56.
:42:56.:43:00.

the civil servant. Who recruits them? Have cuts made a difference?

:43:00.:43:04.

If you ask a civil servant for the answer is, surprise, surprise, they

:43:04.:43:09.

are going to say, pay them more and train them more. Perhaps the

:43:09.:43:13.

problem is in the fact that it does not matter how expendable are, if

:43:13.:43:19.

the government is so big it is beyond any Western, the government

:43:20.:43:24.

cannot get it right. -- any wisdom.

:43:24.:43:31.

I would be surprised if any of those civil servants were not

:43:31.:43:41.
:43:41.:43:42.

bought in from the private sector. They have a revolving door. Do we

:43:42.:43:47.

have the skilled staff that we need in the Civil Service? Shutters have

:43:47.:43:53.

been put in place now which mean it is so difficult to sign of training

:43:53.:43:56.

in the Civil Service. -- structures. Even if you want to grow skills, it

:43:56.:44:01.

is hard to do that. We have a lot of civil servants were doing

:44:01.:44:11.
:44:11.:44:11.

complex jobs that, years ago, they did not do.

:44:11.:44:15.

If in the private sector somebody made a decision costing millions of

:44:15.:44:24.

pounds, there would be no attempt to excuse them. But civil servants

:44:25.:44:34.
:44:35.:44:36.

can't as easily make their case in the way that ministers do.

:44:36.:44:39.

Maybe the way to answer this is to accept that the point -- doctrine

:44:39.:44:45.

of accountability to Parliament is broken. We need Congressional

:44:45.:44:53.

accountability. Visible seven needs to come before the committee and

:44:53.:44:58.

explain themselves. -- the civil servant.

:44:58.:45:07.

Are ministers without criticism here was -- criticism here?

:45:07.:45:11.

We are getting into a war of attrition. It is damaging for the

:45:11.:45:15.

way the country is run. If you listen to some ministers, they are

:45:15.:45:19.

excoriating about the civil servants. It is like something out

:45:19.:45:29.
:45:29.:45:33.

of a TV show. They hate each other. We live in a democracy.

:45:33.:45:38.

Why not make both ministers and mandarins accountable to the

:45:38.:45:42.

people? Would that work, Steve?

:45:42.:45:46.

I agree with that and the accountability of civil servants.

:45:46.:45:56.
:45:56.:45:59.

His analysis and his remedy, I agree with that. He is right. I

:45:59.:46:03.

disagree with his broader analysis that this is about to much

:46:03.:46:07.

government, in the sense that getting these franchises right is

:46:07.:46:15.

almost impossible because if you say have been for five years, it is

:46:15.:46:24.

too short term. In 15 years, it is impossible to predict. You cannot

:46:24.:46:34.
:46:34.:46:45.

assume the private sector is always Douglas cars will is and all that.

:46:46.:46:51.

We decided to put him in the hot seat to ask him about his

:46:51.:47:01.
:47:01.:47:03.

specialist subject. Douglas cars will, Member of

:47:03.:47:07.

Parliament Clacton. It is over, the Government way of doing things is

:47:07.:47:11.

coming to an end. Bloated Government as outgrown its capacity,

:47:11.:47:16.

outgrown the rest of us to be able to pay for it. It has outgrown

:47:16.:47:20.

Democratic accountability. It is hard be surprising voters are

:47:20.:47:27.

disillusioned. We are in debt and Miss governed. Should we disband?

:47:27.:47:32.

No, the digital revolution comes a long. The digital revolution

:47:32.:47:37.

creates a world of what you might call hyper personalisation. Think

:47:37.:47:43.

of Twitter, your personalised news feed. Or your eye pad. Soon we will

:47:43.:47:49.

seek the same level in public services. Instead of a National

:47:49.:47:53.

Curriculum, what if every child had a personalised one. What it you had

:47:53.:47:57.

a personalised health care plan stalled on your records.

:47:57.:48:02.

Politicians will have less control over us. That is a thought to shoot

:48:02.:48:09.

us up. I will ask for a score of that performance. -- cheers us up.

:48:09.:48:16.

Are you being dramatic towards the end of politics as we know it,

:48:16.:48:25.

surely it is about reinventing and rejuvenating us? Look at the banks.

:48:25.:48:30.

We are in a recession. But the Government has shown cheap credit.

:48:30.:48:38.

I think we are at the end of the road, and the digital revolution

:48:38.:48:42.

will create change. It does not matter what the politicians want,

:48:42.:48:50.

it is over. He is a brilliant politician. He is a brilliant

:48:50.:48:53.

politician who is anti-politics. Who will pay for the personalised

:48:53.:48:59.

budgets? It means the Government remains accountable for the money.

:48:59.:49:03.

20 years ago, it we were sitting here in this studio and I tried to

:49:03.:49:09.

explain the concept of Google, you could type anything you want your

:49:09.:49:14.

first question would have been, who will pay for it? If I said they

:49:14.:49:17.

private company would create millions in revenue by creating it

:49:17.:49:22.

free, you would have lacked. Health care is going to be provided for

:49:22.:49:28.

free? We will always need a taxpayer funded system will stop

:49:28.:49:32.

that mean central Government should be involved. You can have

:49:32.:49:36.

collectors and without the state. You can allocate resources paid for

:49:36.:49:40.

by the state without officials doing the allocation. It is

:49:40.:49:44.

possible for people to have a personalised health or education

:49:44.:49:48.

budget by the Government is providing the resources, but you

:49:48.:49:52.

and your doctor, parents are deciding about where it is being

:49:52.:49:59.

spent. Would you like that situation? I think Douglas is on to

:49:59.:50:03.

something where people want more individual services and want

:50:03.:50:07.

greater control over their lives. But they what security and safety

:50:07.:50:14.

at a time of recession. And they get that now? The NHS provides a

:50:14.:50:18.

safety net. You know you can turn up with your child at 3am and you

:50:18.:50:23.

get treated. You don't have to worry about the right budget a

:50:23.:50:28.

credit card on your system. Under my system, the state would pay. But

:50:28.:50:32.

instead of standing in line and waiting what the state did you, you

:50:32.:50:36.

can decide what is right for you. There are catchment areas that

:50:36.:50:42.

decide the education you get. Why not allow people have the decision?

:50:42.:50:46.

What if I waste the money, what if I choose to spend thousands of

:50:47.:50:53.

pounds on cosmetic surgery. state is still paying for that?

:50:53.:50:56.

People's self Commission's social care without people spending it on

:50:56.:51:04.

cigarettes and drink. At 3am, 300 people could choose the same A&E

:51:04.:51:10.

clinic and find they are queuing through the night. I do not see how

:51:10.:51:18.

your theory solves this problem. It you know there is a good hospital

:51:18.:51:22.

near you, we all go there and we wait for months to see the people.

:51:22.:51:26.

I don't see how this magically removes all the issues, the

:51:26.:51:33.

problems we have with state owned delivery. Why is it when you queue

:51:33.:51:38.

up as some think the Government provides, you are having to queue.

:51:38.:51:41.

If you are a parent looking for a GP open on a Saturday, it is hard

:51:41.:51:46.

to find it. You can go to the supermarket 20 var hours a day and

:51:46.:51:52.

watch a film late into the evening. -- 24 hours a day. We need the same

:51:52.:51:57.

choice and freedom over public services that things we enjoyed in

:51:57.:52:02.

our own lives. Do you want people to make those decisions all of the

:52:02.:52:06.

times in our busy lives and busy jobs. Do the research, find the

:52:06.:52:12.

best doctor, but a school and everything? A few weeks ago I

:52:12.:52:15.

bought it technically, a sophisticated electronic device. We

:52:15.:52:20.

would have taken me weeks to research it. But I managed to buy

:52:20.:52:24.

my mobile phone in a few minutes because thousands of other

:52:24.:52:29.

Londoners had collectively allowed me to make an informed choice. If I

:52:29.:52:33.

was making that choice in isolation, but through branding and the price

:52:33.:52:37.

mechanism, I could make the choice right away. Soon collected

:52:37.:52:42.

intelligence will allow us to make a decision about our whole lives.

:52:42.:52:48.

Looking at their faces, you have a bit of convincing to do. Nine out

:52:48.:52:51.

of 10 for the Mastermind performance. It's Friday, so it

:52:51.:52:55.

must be time for our weekly roundup of who's up and who's down. Here's

:52:55.:53:01.

Giles with the political Week in 60 Seconds.

:53:01.:53:05.

A good week for Ed Miliband in what they called a barnstorming leader's

:53:05.:53:12.

speech. One nation. A vision of one nation. One nation. What was it

:53:12.:53:22.

about again? According to Ed Balls, the Conservatives are no match to

:53:22.:53:27.

the Labour bandwagon. Let me pay tribute to our leader, the next

:53:27.:53:33.

Prime Minister of Great Britain, Ed Miliband. Let staff take the strain.

:53:33.:53:39.

Ministers have placed the blame on civil servants for the bidding

:53:39.:53:46.

fiasco on the West Coast Main Line. Round one to Mitt Romney, here and

:53:46.:53:50.

expected the out John President Obama. And Andrew Mitchell won't be

:53:50.:53:53.

attending the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham next week.

:53:53.:53:58.

Considering he is a Birmingham MP, you would have thought he could

:53:58.:54:05.

have made it. And we've been joined by the

:54:05.:54:08.

psychotherapist, Lucy Beresford, author of a book called "happy

:54:08.:54:16.

relationships", to talk about the psychology of party conferences. As

:54:16.:54:20.

a doormat, what is your view about party conferences and what they are

:54:20.:54:26.

set up to do? It's is about tribal loyalty and group stroking. That

:54:26.:54:32.

sounds worrying! It is incredibly confidence boosting, it makes

:54:32.:54:38.

people feel heard and understood. It is a huge triumph. But it brings

:54:38.:54:44.

out the worst in us, that sense of them and us. We become bright

:54:44.:54:48.

fighters and everything we say is right, and everything everybody

:54:48.:54:53.

else says is wrong. It is an unsavoury, moral superiority about

:54:53.:55:01.

it. Does it last? So if they go away, everyone goes back to their

:55:01.:55:05.

normal lives and everything is forgotten? It lasts until the next

:55:05.:55:11.

one comes along and then it happens again. It is a bit like a family

:55:11.:55:15.

wedding, we know it is staged, it has to look immaculate. But in the

:55:15.:55:21.

corner, there is someone plastered and probably having a fight. If you

:55:21.:55:26.

are lucky! How we do put re Ed Miliband in his role, his

:55:26.:55:32.

paternalistic role? You do get the dimension to political conferences,

:55:32.:55:38.

which is an Infanta lies since the audience are looking at mummy and

:55:38.:55:42.

Daddy on the stage. That is the power we had given them. I felt

:55:42.:55:51.

David Miliband... Ed Miliband. huge Freudian slip! Sibling rivalry.

:55:51.:55:56.

Something in his narrative was possibly the Cinderella figure or

:55:56.:56:01.

the ugly duckling who then becomes a swan. The potential was there was

:56:01.:56:06.

something quite magical to happen. Did he turn into a swan? He did

:56:06.:56:10.

have a breakthrough moment were people thought they could look

:56:10.:56:15.

again at him. Then he has to deliver if he is a One nation

:56:15.:56:19.

politician or whether it was rhetoric. I know you arguing these

:56:20.:56:23.

conferences as something of the past, they are so stage-managed.

:56:23.:56:28.

Are they on their way out in the form they are in at the moment?

:56:28.:56:34.

they go on for too long. Basically, all that matters is the leader's

:56:34.:56:40.

speech, perhaps a one or two of the set-piece events on the stage. The

:56:40.:56:45.

fringe meetings are very dull. You could watch them from anywhere.

:56:45.:56:50.

They don't need these few days. Be on the fact that a busy, but few

:56:50.:56:55.

party members who can still afford to go get a buzz out of it. That

:56:55.:56:59.

point is worth making. Talking about morale-boosting, it doesn't

:56:59.:57:04.

make people feel good? In makes them feel good, feeling part of the

:57:04.:57:09.

family. You have lots of nice things happening and mutual

:57:09.:57:12.

stroking and attachment, but underneath there is this a motion

:57:12.:57:17.

simmering. We will get to see that in every single political week.

:57:17.:57:20.

it a case of people looking up to the politicians at these

:57:20.:57:27.

conferences? Only the party faithful look up to them. We are

:57:27.:57:30.

also in vandalised because we are happy to give the power to the

:57:30.:57:34.

politicians, otherwise we would stand of this ourselves. It is a

:57:34.:57:40.

danger of the politicians talking to their own tribe, when now unique

:57:40.:57:45.

to win people over away from you tried. Just like Mick Ronnie, you

:57:45.:57:51.

have to draw them into your party. Will they go on? This year seemed

:57:51.:57:55.

worse than ever. It seemed an old- fashioned way of doing politics in

:57:55.:58:00.

this age of Twitter and blog and everything. We may not have many to

:58:00.:58:03.

look forward to and analyse if it goes on.

:58:03.:58:06.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:06.:58:10.

Today is the 50th anniversary of the release of the first Bond film,

:58:10.:58:16.

Dr No. So the question was: Which Cabinet minister has a mocked-up

:58:16.:58:19.

Bond poster of themselves? Is it: David Cameron, William Hague,

:58:19.:58:27.

Theresa May, or Eric Pickles? I think it is David Cameron because

:58:27.:58:33.

I know he is a James Bond fan. Steve? It cannot be William Hague,

:58:33.:58:42.

he would have read Hansard as a teenager. I like Theresa May.

:58:42.:58:48.

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